>> a person that says what he thinks and i don't hide the fact i wasn't a fan of the last president's character issues and i'm also not a fan. isn't that embarrassing? >> by the way, that came one day after minority steve scalise confirmed liz cheney's leadership role, the idea you disregard president trump is not where we are and frankly, he has a lot to offer. still has a lot to offer. while the republican party is in the twice impeached president's corner, they are on alert following his personal attorney's president and office and the president defending rudy

giuliani saying it unfair because rudy loves this country so much. it's terrible when you see things going on in our country with the corruption and problems and then they go after rudy giuliani end quote. one of the people who used to be front and center in trump's inner circle told me on yesterday's show he thinks this won't last. >> i don't really see donald coming out there and fighting for rudy, fighting for this supposed illegal raid. he's going to distance himself from rudy because that's what donald does. he'll distance, distance, distance and start to denigrate. do i think rudy will flip on him? rudy lost his mind several times, i don't think he's gone that far that he'll stay loyal to someone that will throw him under the bus. >> joining me now is politzer prize winning reporter with the washington post carol, the author of "a very stable genius,

donald trump's testing on america" and the former president's final year in office but none of this is history yet, carol. it is still very much an active part of what is going on. rudy giuliani, the latest chapter in what was president trump's continuing time in office and the part after he left office. what's your take on what's going on and how the trump people are feeling about it? >> you know what i'm struck by, is how both of your topics this morning and the things driving the news are so directly linked to things that the former president trump considered, you know, so important in his life. number one, he's not a loser, that the arizona recount is necessary because he didn't lose the election. even though he's out of office, he remains obsessed with that and with regard to rudy, he remains obsessed with the idea that he is the victim of a witch

hunt and everybody who gets embroiled in investigations in donald trump's mind, it's all an effort to get him. and indeed, rudy giuliani no doubt has a lot of interesting information about the president whether or not it's valuable to prosecutors as they try to press down on the fact that he appeared to be working and lobbying for foreign interests, whether or not he gets into some very serious cross hairs and is asked questions about interactions with the former president is an open question but it is something that bedevil's the president. the idea anybody that was loyal to him might turncoat and it's a great fear of the president and the huge fear of his when and experience with michael cohen's apartment, and that is where he

is right now with regard. >> this is interesting that trump is going to cut michael flynn loose, he never cut paul manafort loose and roger stone loose. it's unclear what makes trump worry so much about somebody he doesn't cut them loose or decide they're of no use to him so he does. what do you think trump is thinking about with rudy giuliani right now. >> he's probably thinking about everyone conversation he had with him which might be -- might be incriminating. remember, rudy giuliani said something really interesting during the mueller investigation and the first impeachment and that was sort of this stray comment. when people asked rudy, well, are you worried about the president sort of turning on you? are you worried about your vulnerability and the president cutting ties with you?

and he said i have some insurance. and it was a very odd remark and i wonder if that is something the two men are thinking about now. what is it exactly that rudy giuliani knows, he was his close confident during both impeachments and conservations about ukraine and pressure the campaign to try to influence that foreign government and get dirt on joe biden and hunter biden. he was close to the president when telling the president what he should say to robert mueller or not say to robert mueller as the case was and he was front and center in the president's ear in those waning weeks, ali, when the president was insisting the election was rigged despite all evidence to the contrary. >> carol, good to see you, as always. thank you for your great

reporting and book. she's the author of "a very stable genius, donald trump's testing of america" and "the rise and fall of the secret service" that coming out shortly. joining me is a member of several committees including budget and finance. always great to see you. thank you for joining us. i wanted to talk to you about the various efforts underway right now with this administration, some of which are working their way through the senate. let start with the american jobs plan. the democratic name for what is in part on infrastructure bill and the various struggles and imaginations going on to get this passed. >> well, first of all, ali, always great to be with you and i appreciate all of your efforts every day. you know, i have to start by saying when the president at his speech said this is a blue collar, blueprint for building america for the future, that just did my heart good to think about what he's talking about

here because it's really based on a fundamental belief we as democrats that our country is stronger if everybody has a fair shot to succeed, not just the wealthy, not just the well connected but everybody has a fair shot. so when we talk about the jobs plan, we're talking about the things that we think of as roads, bridges, sewer systems but coming out of covid, high speed internet and telehealth and electric charging stations and making those things in america. make it in america. that's how we create jobs and then we're talking about the infrastructure for families and so as my dear friend bob casey who is on this show earlier talked about, i mean, home care, that's family infrastructure. child care, family medical leave, you know, if you're caught between a sick child and

a sick parent for the family, that's something that is your personal infrastructure that we need to provide support for so that you can be successful. >> infrastructure for families almost sounds like a tag line that conservatives might come up with. it sounds great. we like the family, why don't we do the things to support the family. there is a tie between the american jobs plan, which we call it infrastructure plan but more sophisticated than that and the american families plan that you've been talking about, as well. it's the idea if you strengthen people and their way of life and the things they need to work and live successfully, it's good for the economy and good for the country. >> right. well, and ali, our friends talked about families and children and so on but then, you know, oppose the child tax credit, which literally this year will lift half of poor children out of poverty.

that's basic. i was shocked when the president spoke about that on wednesday night, i looked around the room. i didn't see -- maybe there was one but i didn't see republicans standing up and saying we'll cut child poverty in half. stunning. the reality is that we want to truly value families, not just families who can afford the private nanny who don't have to worry about, you know, how to care for their moms and dads or grandpas and grandmas in nursing homes who have plenty of resources to fully do that but the vast majority of americans trying to piece it all together and particularly now coming out of covid and people being, you know, knocked down and coming back now and looking at okay, how do we piece it together going forward with these new challenges and new opportunities? so that's why things like two years of free community college tuition is great, prek, universal prek for 3 and

4-year-olds to be able to get started to be successful is not radical. that's something that the majority of the world, you know, the industrial world accepts as pretty basic. >> so that's interesting. it's not radical and we have talked about this. i come from north of where you are but i come from canada depending where you are in michigan could be south. i had a good conversation with senator casey i said what's the bigger deal to you, getting a few republican votes and changing the flavor of this thing or using budget reconciliation to pass it? what do you think? >> most important thing is to get it done. people aren't looking at the sausage making. after the american rescue plan, nobody said i'm mad you guys did it with democratic votes or some people were upset republicans didn't vote for it. they said thank you, thank you, thank you, you're helping my family. we're getting more vaccinations out. we're getting our children back to school safely. they don't care about the

political sausage making going on. it's in the bubble of d.c. that everybody talking about it in the real world people want high speed internet. they want to be able to afford quality child care for their children. think want health care. they want mental health care. they want to be able to know that things that should be basics in the united states of america in our country in terms of quality of life are there and they also want to make sure everybody is paying their fair share so when we're talking about roads and bridges and so on, how about somebody like amazon who drives on the roads or fedex who don't pay any taxes right now? how is that fair? i appreciate colleagues, republican colleagues coming forward with infrastructure plans but are they going to step up and make sure everybody in america is paying for it? everybody, not just working people? not just the average person who is trying to put things all together or are they going to actually say you know what, what we used to say billionaires, we

say trillion. should the trillion help pay? should every business be contributing? i think yes. democrats say yes. and that's -- >> you brought up a number of things including health care and mental health care so i'm going to do something that's probably going to make my staff uneasy but i'd like to book you again to just have this conversation about health care and expansion of health care and mental health care. you're one of a few democratic senators pushing for that next. so if you don't mind, i'm going to have that conversation with you another day. thank you for joining us. >> love to. thank you. democratic senator debbie of michigan. we have much more "velshi" coming up including my conversation with heather boushey and what biden's path to economic recovery looks like as millions of americans are out of work and in need. we just marked the tenth year

since osama bin laden's death. the night the government tracked down and took down the most wanted terrorist and an update on the special election of the sixth congressional district in texas. 23 candidates vied to replace the late congressman ron right. the republican died in early february after being diagnosed with covid-19. no candidate met the required threshold to win so it's headed to a run off. only one candidate qualified for the run off so far. ron wright's widow susan is the top vote getter pulling in 19% of the vote. state representative jake ellzey and janna lynn sanchez are battling for a second spot. we'll bring you updates as they come our way. we're back after a quick break. come our way we're back after a quick break the bowls are back. applebee's irresist-a-bowls all just $8.99.

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tonight, i can report to the

american people and to the world that the united states conducted an operation that killed osama bin laden, the leader of al qaeda thousands for killing of innocent men, women and children. >> just bef2011 president baraca announced the united states of america killed the world's most wanted terrorist. his late night address is where were you moment. america let out a sigh of relief. seal team six descended by helicopter in the mountains of pakistan and inside was the leader of al qaeda, osama bin laden. the rest is history. he evaded justice for ten years after orchestrating the september 11th attacks that killed 3,000 people. the death toll continues to climb as americans continue to

die from the illnesses as the towers fell. president obama and his national security team were waiting and watching intently. 14 people crammed into "the situation room." you'll see familiar faces including secretary of state hillary clinton, current secretary of state tony blinken, james clapper, john brennan and the future president of the united states, joe biden. behind the scenes there was a political subplot developing that nobody could have known at the time. president green lit the raid that friday night and the next day, saturday, he through on a suit and rubbed elbows with washington d.c.'s elite at the white house correspondence dinner, a room full of journalists and president obama was holding the best kept secret in the entire world. that night he took the stage and roasted the real estate developer and tv star donald trump. one day later nbc news interrupt the "the apprentice".

>> you're facing a tough men's team, latoya. >> announcer: this is an nbc news special report. ♪ ♪ >> good evening washington. i'm david gregory. we're here from the united states, the president will address a situation concerning the most wanted terrorist in the world. >> it's been ten years since there and in hindsight the sigh of relief over bin laden's death was premature. the war continued. more than 900 american service members died in afghanistan since the bin laden year but this year on the 20th anniversary of the 9/11 terror attacks, president joe biden plans to all all u.s. soldiers out of afghanistan saying i'm the fourth united states president to preside over american troop presence in

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right now the u.s. economy appears to be firing on all cylinders, the burro of economic analysis reported personal income hit a record high as it jumped by $4 trillion last month, a record21.1% increase. economists believe this was caused by stimulus people hitting people's bank accounts and more people getting back into the worse fork. the gross domestic product or gdp, the total value of all goods and services produced within american boarders jumped by an annual rate of 6 .4% in the first quarter of 2021, which is the second best reading for one quarter for one three three-month period since 2003 and let's not

forget the dramatic gains in the stock market. the dow and the nasdaq have far exceeded their prepandemic highs but with all of those positives, millions of americans are still struggling to make ends meet. according to the labor department, 6% of the work force is still unemployed as of march and that's only counting the people who are technically looking for work. there are millions more who have been uncounted. earlier i spoke with heather a member of the white house counsel on economic advisors how the biden administration plans to handle this situation. heather let talk about jobs. this is the thing i think matters to most americans. the president talked about 1.3 million jobs having been added in the last three months but the congressional budget office has said we won't get back to prepandemic employment levels until 2024 so we got good news and bad news on there. what's your evaluation of this? do you want to tell american people who are most concerned about jobs? >> well, we are all very

concerned about jobs. when the president took office, he knew that the first and most important thing he needed to do is wrap his hands around the pandemic and make sure we get vaccines out there and making it possible for people to start getting back to work, opening up child care centers and schools and giving people what they needed and he also knew that we needed to make sure that families and businesses and communities were made whole and so that's what the american rescue plan did. it pumping money out there into communities to help them while we weather this pandemic. so on the one hand, we're starting to see jobs coming back and the president talked about that wednesday night, certainly, it's been very impressive to see the pace of job creation but we have so much further to go. we know that we still have more than 8 million people who are not in the labor force at work today that were prepandemic and this is on an going challenge. we have to get the virus under control so everyone can get back to work. >> so the american rescue plan added $1400 to the $600 that had

been previously passed by congress for $2,000 but if we got 8 million people out of work and the congressional budget says it will be 2024 by the time everybody gets back to work, that's the thinking by the white house whether or not there is another rescue plan or some version of that for people who are not going to get back to work for awhile? >> well, the thing about the american rescue plan it goes through key provisions of it go through at least september and it making a significant investment now but these are system of the reasons the president is so adamant about getting longer term plans, the american jobs plan and these are the long-term down payment to make sure we recover strongly and create good middle class jobs across the united states so it's an on going challenge because of the pandemic. we have structure challenges the jobs plan and family plan is meant to address to get everyone back to work.

>> the family's plan has been targeted by some conservatives as being too liberal. as you and i have talked about in prior years, things like higher minimum wage and universal health care and things like child care and things that help humans work, isn't a particularly liberal concept but across the board. how do you manage to make these things into legislation as opposed to things that the white house would like to do but you can't really do through executive order? >> it's a great question, ali. here is the thing. many of the pieces of the package that the president talked about wednesday night are already in legislation that folks on capitol hill have been working on for a long time. so there is a long term focus on making child care affordable and accessible to all families and make sure the child care workers have descent pay so we have high quality care for america's children. there is also policies already that have been thought through around ensuring access to universal prekindergarten. some states have taken a lead

there. but here is the thing, we know from polling that's been done over quite sometime the american people value these investments, their families and commuicommun. of course, 2020 has shown us in stark relief if you don't have schools open, if you don't have child care, people can't get to work. that's a big part of the problem in the labor market right now. so that is why the family's plan focuses on these fundamentals that will help families have that strong foundation to get to work, so that we can build a skilled and strong labor force and so families have an economic security that is so important to their day to day lives. >> in 2020 people didn't have the choice to stay at home and earning $7.25 an hour or whatever the state minimum wage was. the federal minimum wage has not moved in many years. joe biden tried to get it through and democrats tried to get it through in the relief

plan. it didn't work. there are a couple of republicans, tom cotton and mitt romney that suggested an increase to $10 in the minimum wage. does that suggest to you that there is some room for compromise or is $15 an hour not something that this white house is prepared to compromise on? >> the president has been very clear for quite sometime that $15 an hour minimum wage is absolutely important and in fact, he just announced an executive order to raise to $15 an hour, the pay for worker whose are on federal contracts. so that is a commitment that he's made. he's made it to those workers whose pay is being driven by federal dollars and, you know, he is also said time and time again he's open to compromise. he wants to hear from folks from across the aisle for how to get things done but he wants to make sure it's the right things in the best interest of the american people. >> so let me ask you that. if the compromise is $12.50 an hour, that's more than the $7.25 an hour. would you as an economists think that's a victory? >> listen, what is so important

is we create good jobs and have higher wages and strong wage growth for workers all across our society. at this point, i lead the negotiations to other folks, but i think it is important that the president stated very clearly he has been behind the $15 an hour minimum wage and the proposals that are out there had that increasing over time. it not going from where it is now to 15 overnight. so i think it's important to recognize that it's a sensible proposal and it really does matter to american workers. >> you made an interesting point. a number of people have criticized this increase let's say to $15 an hour as a minimum wage as something small business can't handle right now. there is no goal. there is no objective of small business being able to handle that right now. if we go to $15 an hour, it would be phased in over a number of years. >> it would phased in. i used to run a small

non-profit, a small business and when you have a policy like that, it doesn't just happen to you but all economic competitors so they'll raise prices and cope because it happens to everyone. what's important, it will improve the lives of workers. when you raise the minimum wage, it can boost retention because it makes the jobs better and that can boost productivity for the firms. i think it's important to recognize we're not going to be leaving small businesses hanging. we're creating a floor for everyone. >> my thanks to heather, member of the white house counsel on economic advisors. >> there is a new and interesting development troubling trend, actually, emerging from the republican party. legislation that targets transgender children. west virginia is the latest to mile on. my friend stephanie ruhle took jim justice to task by simply asking for reasons why he signed the bill. it's a fiery exchange and i'm going to bring it to you next. x going to bring it to you next. ee for veterans like martin. when a hailstorm hit,

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west virginia has become the latest state to enact anti transgender legislation for children that want to play sports with their classmates. there are 120 bills being considered right now that directly infringe on transgender rights and more than half 66% would target girls and young women banning them playing

consistent with gender identities. it's a culture war checklist item there is no reason for it. no problem is being solved. we know of no chance who transition for the purpose of participate income sports. republicans passed the bills and sign them into law to score political points for their position. that changed this past week when west virginia governor jim justice joined my friend stephanie ruhle on friday. stephanie can be refreshingly direct. here is what happened. >> the law you just signed banning transgender female athletes from playing on women's school sports teams, can you name one example of a transgender child trying to gain an unfair competitive advantage at a school there in west virginia? >> well, stephanie, i don't have that experience exactly to myself right now, but i will -- >> not yourself, yo you are state. sir, can you give me one example of a transgender child trying to

get an unfair advantage, just one in your state? you signed a bill about it. >> no, i can't really tell you one, but i can tell you this, steve stephanie. i'm with a coach and i coach a girl's basketball team and i can tell you that there -- you know, we all know, we all know what an absolute advantage boys would have playing against girls. >> but sir, you have no examples of this happening. why would you take your time to do this? let's talk about other things that i can give you examples of in your state. according to u.s. news and world report, west virginia ranks 45th in education. 47th in health care. 48th on the economy and 50th in infrastructure. if you cannot name one single example for me of a child doing this, why would you make this a priority? i named four things that would seem to me like a much bigger priority. >> well, stephanie, i didn't make it a priority. it wasn't my bill. >> you signed it. >> it's just come to me and i've

absolutely signed it because i believe from the standpoint of a coach, i believe that girls work so hard to obtain title nine and i do not have any idea now why we are trying to disadvantage them in participating in the sport that they put so much into. i don't know why we're doing that. this is not like it's a big priority to me. in fact -- >> well, you signed it, sir. >> stephanie, listen. i think we only have 12 kids maybe in our state that are transgendered type kids. for crying out loud, stephanie, i signed hundreds of bills, hundreds of bills. this is not a priority to me. but with all that, i would say i think that it would impose an unfair disadvantage on the girls and so from that standpoint, i support it.

>> based on that clip, it looks like justice got served. stephanie calls it as she sees it and so does jojonathan. jonathan, that may be one of the worst justifications for signing a bill. it's not a thing. i invite people to tweet you and tweet me of any example of anybody that decided to undergo gender reassignment because they wanted to play on a different team literally to succeed better in sports. it's not a thing. >> right. not even gender reassignment, ali, but taking the hormones to be the gender that you are. i mean, you identify as. i'm so glad stephanie did that to him. the idea it's not a prior for me. there are only 12 students. dude, really? in infrastructure, health care, the things many your state that need attention. the great thing, ali, the president of the united states for the first time in history

had a message for transgender americans and we'll be talking about that on the sunday show coming up in a little bit. >> yeah, it's kind of incredible. i'm a little puzzled jonathan because we talk about infrastructure and health care and $15 minimum wage, if i were a conservative, i would want to be out there in this discussion saying hey, it's not do $15 an hour, let's do $12 an hour. let's spend $750 billion. you can't get into that discussion because they're busy talking about transgender kids. >> right, it's catnip. they would rather talk about culture war issues, wedge issues instead of going toe to toe with democrats on policy, on governing. >> unbelievable. jonathan, look forward to your show, my friend. catch jonathan on the sunday show coming up at the top of the hour, 10:00 a.m. eastern. representative adam schiff will

be joining jonathan. top republicans are threatening to oust the highest ranking woman seemingly in retaliation for not supporting the former failed president. the gop loves to hate on cancel culture but badly want to cancel liz cheney. more on "velshi" after this. z cy more on "velshi" after this a. who needs that kind of drama? kesimpta is a once-monthly at-home injection that may help you put this rms drama in its place. kesimpta was proven superior at reducing the rate of relapses, active lesions and slowing disability progression versus aubagio. don't take kesimpta if you have hepatitis b, and tell your doctor if you have had it, as it could come back. kesimpta can cause serious side effects, including infections. while no cases of pml were recorded in rms clinical trials, it could happen. tell your doctor if you had or plan to have vaccines, or if you are or plan to become pregnant. kesimpta may cause a decrease in some types of antibodies. the most common side effects

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♪ back in black ♪ ♪ i hit the sack ♪ ♪ i've been too long... ♪ applebee's irresist-a-bowls are back. dig in for just $8.99. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. this week in a letter to sec tourry education secretary, mitch mcconnell plus 38 other republicans urge the department the discourage schools of revision of american history siting "the new york times" 1619 project as a program that quote doubles down on divided radical dubious buzz words and propaganda and doesn't focus on critical thinking or accurate history but on spoon feeding students a slanted story end quote. the project's goal, the 1619

project we talk about an awful lot on the show is to highlight american history from when the first slave ship arrived while exploring racism and the consequences of slavery. i was a person who did not understand a ton about prerevolutionary wore american history. when i first read "the project" i realized more information. history is written by enslaved black people and their stories are written out of american history. "1619" was more information what happened. a little rich for republicans to call this revision history given the failed former president prohibited government officials, web pages and publications from using words like entitlement, diversity, evidence based and science based. just because you don't like something ocho or agree with i doesn't mean it doesn't happen. founding editor in large for a non-profit newsroom reporting at

the intersection of gender, politics and policy and staff writer for the new yorker and a professor at colombia journalism school, both of these friends are, msnbc contributors. i don't know, look, you both are smarter than i am. you probably knew a lot more about black history in america in 1619 than i did. i didn't and i was just very thankful to nicole hanna jones and trymaine lee for pointing me to the information. i can't imagine the we recalled -- weird reaction is. >> if i did know more, it was because i had a black mother who was intent on me knowing the history i was not getting frankly at school. because we know in this case, history was not written by the victors. the history was written by the losers in many cases, the daughters of the confederacy took over this narrative after

the civil war and shaped a lot of what we know and don't know about slavery and how we teach children about this ugly period in our history and its legacy, which by the way, does have present day ramifications despite, you know, senator tim scott saying that this country is not racist. well, this country does have origins that we're yet to be honest with and fully reckon with and this "1619" project, the people who react to it, their reactions have always said just as much about what, you know, as what the actual history and the actual work has said itself. you have republicans in state houses as we reported at 19th news, my colleague robert rodriguez showing republican lawmakers threatening to cut funding for schools that dare to teach this fuller history. you know, you had president

biden on day one of his administration issuing an executive order, you know, really doing away with the 1776 commission which was committed to misinformation and keeping the students of this country and really everyone who did not learn the fuller truer history about who and where we began as america from getting that information. >> you're a man of letters. you're a professor. i want to read you a little more from this center from the education secretary. this is a time to strengthen the american history teachings in our schools and he continues, families did not ask for this non-sense and children should be taught our country is inherently evil. the stuff that happened to black americans was inherently evil. it does divide society. it did divide society and launched a civil war. why would we want to be covering

this up? >> you know, i think that first off to erin's point, if i was knowledgeable about these issues, it was because i was the beneficiary of a very fine history department at howard university and the very fine graduate history program and rutgers university that made it clear we have narratives of history in the united states that are not meant to be a resume, that history is not the same thing as the list of all the wonderful attributes about you so we have to tell the entire narrative, and so the thing here to use the term is that they're attempting to keep the most bias version of history as the most accurate form of it. and so the fact of the matter is, we have a constitution that enshrined and protected slavery. we look at the origins of this country again and again and decoloration, of independence and founding documents, the

issues of slavery and protection of slavery come up again and again and the foundational war of this country, the war in which we lost the most casualties by far was fought over the question of whether or not people would be allowed people be would allowed to buy, sell, trade, abuse african-americans. this country has been steeped and defined, and we could talk about this all morning. it doesn't mean we are required to stay in that place, but unless we -- >> correct. >> -- are able to have an honest conversation about the origins of this country and the way that it relates to george floyd dying before our eyes last year and the disparities we see in birth mortalities and the disparities in covid mortality, the things we see now, the only way to address them is to be honest about how we came to them in the first place. >> i think what you said is

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the fact that i wasn't a fan of our last president's character issues and -- >> the sound of mitt romney, the

only republican in favor of removing donald trump being booed by fellow republicans yesterday. liz cheney is also in hot water for being trumpian with republicans threatening to oust her. matt gaetz's legal trouble found more trouble as joel greenberg reportedly wrote a confession letter alleging his and gaetz's sexual encounters with minors. federal prosecutors are yet to charge him with any crime and so far the republican party seems in no rush to remove him from committee assignments or denounce him. joining me, editor-at-large for the 19th, errin haines and jelani cobb. all of this confuses me, but the mitt romney stuff and the liz cheney stuff confuse me more. mitt romney is an elder statesman of what used to be the

republican party and liz cheney is the most elected senior woman in that party right now. they have no problem throwing the two of them under the bus. >> not at all. mitt romney and liz cheney are problems to be addressed while matt gaetz's federal investigation, nothing needs to be said about that. listen, we know liz cheney, despite being embattled within her own party and certainly matt gaetz going to her home state and, you know, telling voters there to kick her out of office has had a record fund-raising quarter in the wake of her party coming after her and trying to remove her from power. and so, you know, while this may be something that some republicans because they are still very much under the influence of the former president and because this is still very much his party, we

are seeing that her pushing back against that, while that is drawing ire from them, it may be galvanizing people who republicans or others who do want to see her pushing back in this way. but it is perplexing, indeed, that this seems to be what republicans are focused on as opposed to what should be done, if anything, about the fact that matt gaetz is under federal investigation even as we speak. >> we all know people who probably voted for mitt romney who are conservatives, they are republicans, or at least used to say they are republicans, who probably want less government involvement and don't want to see taxes at the highest levels go up, who are looking at this and saying, this is kind of crazy, right? we're not looking to get rid of the mitt romneys and liz cheneys. neither are liberals. they're conservative conservatives. not even moderate conservatives.

what happens now because every time this happens, it gets we'der and we'der to talk to republicans. >> it does. two things we want to talk about the metrics for the way trump has narrowed the party is that in 2012 mitt romney represented a broad enough cross-section of the republican party to actually win the presidential nomination. and now he's a pariah within the party. the other thing i'll say, and i think is pertinent here, we're talking about this being a kind of generational shift of the republican party into a much more narrow and sectarian organization, it's interesting to note that both mitt romney and liz cheney are the familial descendents of people who were prominent members of the old republican party. mitt romney's father is famously, of course, the governor of michigan and the secretary of housing and urban development and liz cheney's

father was the vice president to george w. bush. so, i think in a way, this is as direct a repudiation you can see of that era of the republican party as you can imagine. >> it's remarkable. thanks to both of you for joining me. i just don't know where this goes because there are republicans out there who must be quite frustrated at this turn of events and would like to be having issues oriented, political debates about the things actually happening in government but instead we're talking about transgender kids and voting rights and insurrectionists. aaron haynes, founding mother at the 19th. both of them are friends and msnbc contributors. that does it for me. thank you for watching "velshi." catch me every saturday and sunday morning from 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. eastern.

watch "inspiring america: the 2021 inspiration list" tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. don't touch the dial or button, because "the sunday show" with jonathan capehart starts right now. rudy giuliani raided by the feds. how worried should donald trump's ex-attorney be? i'll ask another ex-trump attorney, and we'll talk to adam schiff. tim scott returns to the air waves after setting on of a firestorm about his comments on race in america. and a moment in history. >> thank you all, madame speaker. madame vice president. symone sanders is here to talk about the next 100 days for

her boss, vice president kamala harris. i'm jonathan capehart. this is "the sunday show." this sunday we continue to follow the investigation into rudy giuliani following the fbi raid on his residence and office. >> the reality is that that warrant is it completely illegal. the only way you can get a search warrant is if you can show there's some evidence the person is going to destroy the evidence or is going to run away with the evidence. i could have destroyed the evidence -- i didn't destroy the evidence because the evidence is exculpatory. it proves the president and i are innocent. they are the ones who are committing -- it's like projection. they're committing the crimes. >> and now we know more about what those agents are l