point. the future of the republican party on the line here. these questions about whether liz cheney is going to stay in power have been swirling for the last week or so. they seem to be increasing in urgency and pitch this week. something to keep an eye on as we get started here. thank you all so much for getting up way too early with us on this monday morning. don't go anywhere. "morning joe" starts right now. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's monday, may 3rd, which means it's willie's birthday. happy birthday, willie! we have white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. eddie glaude jr., founder of the "the bulwark," and charlie

sykes. and ed luce is with us as well. it's really good to have you all on this monday morning. we'll get you to former president donald trump continuing to perpetuate his big lie about the election fraud inform a moment, but first, over 100 million americans are now fully vaccinated. the u.s. reached the number on friday and the total u.s. population is now almost 30% fully vaccinated. vaccine hesitancy remains a threat, though the country is really trying. it is a threat to the country's chances at achieving herd immunity, which is really what the united states needs in order to put the coronavirus behind us. a front page story in "the new york times" says scientists believe the virus will, quote, likely become a manageable threat that will continue to circulate in the u.s. for years

to come, still causing hospitalizations and deaths, but in much smaller numbers. all right. and we'll get to the issue with india, which is another story in itself which does have ramifications in just a moment. but first, former donald trump donald trump continues to perpetuate his big lie about election fraud. he is still claiming it was stolen from him. video surfaced of him addresses a crowd at mar-a-lago last wednesday in which he talks about the republican-led recount that is currently underway in arizona's maricopa county. he lost the county by more than two points, but told the crowd, quote, watch arizona. some very interesting things are happening. take a look. >> let's see what they find. i wouldn't be surprised if they found thousands and thousands and thousands of votes, so we're going to watch that very

closely. and after that, you'll watch pennsylvania and watch georgia and you're going to watch michigan and wisconsin and you're watching new hampshire. they found a lot of votes up in new hampshire just now. >> nope, nope, nope, nope. none of those states are in dispute. and while it's kind of pitiful see him on patios at mar-a-lago, you know, just looping on all of this, there is a strain of this that is dangerously still alive, joe. >> excuse me. >> bless you, cutie! >> dangerously still alive. dangerously still alive. charlie sykes, you look at that video and it's pathetic and sad that a former president is going in the middle of a reception and just talking to random people. >> and meandering around. >> lying to them and lying to them based on what federal judges that he appointed said was actually the reality.

but i read a "washington post" article this morning where somebody said, well, of course we believe him, because donald trump has always been right. and we're going to get to mitt romney a little bit later. we're going to get to what's happening with the texas runoff a little bit later, but in every case, this party, as sad and pathetic and really just as stupid as he looks, the truth is, there is an entire nation of republicans that are blindly following this corrupt, just terrible man. >> you know, it was pitiful, it was pathetic, and it was ludicrous. and i can't help thinking, look at that video and imagine that millions of people including the leadership of the republican party look at him and go, yes, that is our leader. that is our future. this is the man we want to put back in the oval office. you know, it is this bizarre moment where the republican party looks at that picture and

says, yeah, um, this is our guy. and anybody that breaks with him, whether it's mitt romney or liz cheney, we have to throw them out. and believing this lie has now become a litmus test in the republican party. it is now required that you do this. and the republican party is in the process of purging people that are willing to challenge the big lie and that are telling the truth about what happened. it's an extraordinary moment, joe. and i say that having lived through the last five years of watching the derangement of the republican party. and now to watch what appears to be the acceleration of the derangement of the republican party. >> you know, charlie, though, we focus an awful lot, as we should, on the kevin mccarthies and the others who know that donald trump is a joke and who will tell anybody that will listen to them off the record that they know that donald trump is a joke. but they have no choice. what are they going to do. if they're going to be speaker

and win their elections, they've got to follow up donald trump. what about all the people we've known through the years. our rank and file people that friends or family members, party members, officials, people that helped get me elected, who claimed at one time to be conservatives. who actually claimed the same thing i did in small government. what -- i feel like now's a great time to ask a question. what the hell has happened to them? and when do they -- is it the nazi flag? like, when they carry the flag of the third reich around, do our friends go, well, if you've ever looked at the flag closely, it does have a snappy design and nice colors. at what point do they finally give up the ghost on this guy. we could go down the laundry list of things that he's done. we could talk about january 26th. we could talk about the fact that he's pressuring his

attorney general to arrest like a fascist thug. to arrest his political opponent and their family two weeks before the election. we could go down the laundry list of things that he's done to actually show that he is a fascist, and yet they keep following him. >> well, you know, the response would be, of course, well, what about antifa. what about black lives matter, because this has become internalized on the right. just the willingness to look the other way. it's also interesting watching how, with donald trump donald trump down there in mar-a-lago on the patio, the thought leadership, except there isn't any thought leadership at all on the right, have shifted to people like tucker carlson, who don't even pretend any longer to not be pushing white nationalist sorts of narratives. this is a really ugly moment, where you have 70% of republicans who believe the

election was stolen. and there's no indication that's going to change. and i would like to be able to say to you, joe, if there was really stronger leadership among the people that you have described. if more people spoke out about this, maybe there would be this moment of recognition, but we've seen this again and again and again where the acquiescence and the rationalization have just become the norm now on the republican side. so, yes, and it is getting worse and my concern is that as these ideas become normalized. as the right shrugs off accusations of racism and white nationalism and fascism, that in fact, our politics is going to be changing and changing in extraordinarily ugly ways. >> yeah, and i mean, there have been times in the past few weeks where media outlets, all of

them, have had on, and i'm talking about news media outlets have had on republicans who support the big lie and tiptoed around it just because they're so grateful to have a republican on to talk about other things. i'm sorry, i think that's wrong. the press needs to ask the question. and if they can't come on to have the question asked. and it's not a question being asked for democrats. it's a question being asked for our democracy. do you stand on the side of our democracy? and if they can't come on a news program, whether it's a sunday show or "morning joe" or anywhere to talk about that, i really -- i don't know how you tiptoe around something like that. look at what happened to republican senator mitt romney of utah, who was booed by delegates at a gop, a republican convention in his own state on saturday. >> there's a person here who says what he thinks and i don't hide the fact that i wasn't a fan of our last president's

character issues. and i'm also no fan -- [ audience boo ] >> aren't you embarrassed? >> senator romney was the only republican who visited to convict trump in both of his impeachment trials. despite the reaction on saturday, a vote to censure romney failed shortly after that speech. joe, i mean, mitt romney was dealing with it well enough, as best as he could, but these people are leering and booing at is what should be disturbing all americans. >> well, he asked the right question. "aren't you embarrassed?" you

know, this is a guy whose father was a republican governor. this is a guy who was a senator. this is a guy who was the republican nominee in 2012. i remember a lot of those same people booing those type of people, eviscerated me in 2012 wherever i criticized mitt romney's campaign style and talked about how he was campaigning poorly and was going to probably lose the 2012 election. it was some of the most hateful, the most hateful screeds that i've ever seen, but they're just tribal -- you know, they're just a tribe. because now they're turning on mitt romney because he's actually done the right thing. he actually voted to impeach a guy who led an insurrection. but he asks, again, he asks the right question, "aren't you embarrassed?" because maybe 25 years ago when i watched this tape, i would

have felt really bad for mitt romney. but i know mitt romney and mitt romney doesn't care. >> he doesn't need to be doing this. >> he's going home to a wife who loves him, he's going home to children and grandchildren who love and respect him. he knows who he is. and so when they boo, they don't boo -- they don't reveal the character of mitt romney, they reveal the character of themselves. and you hear. and hear people acting that way. and the question from anybody that's raised in a half-decent family is, like, what were these people's mom and dad think of them? were they not raised any better than that? if they have faith in god, i'm sure most of those people there would claim to be christians, does jesus not teach them better than to act that way? to be that rude to a man for doing something that they know they should all do, and that is,

condemn what's gone on over the past four or five years. mitt romney, when you watch this tape, don't feel sorry for mitt. mitt's fine. mitt knows who he is. the problem, eddie glaude is, those people who were booing in the audience and being extraordinarily disrespectful to a man who has given his life to the republican party, these are the same people who booed a dying john mccain. these are the same people who booed a dying john mccain. and again, i ask the question, would their parents be proud of them? are their parents proud of them? listen, my parents were very conservative. oh, my god. any acted that way in public, was that disrespectful to a man or a woman who dedicated their

lives to public service, i will tell you, going home to pensacola, florida, that would be an ugly scene when i walked through that door. my grandmom, whoo! if she were still alive, she would take out a switch. i mean, it really, the lack of basic values and decency is really sad and shocking considering that this is my tribe that is behaving this way. and there happens to be the added element, as mika just said, for it being dangerous, dangerous for the republic and seeing that they're paying fealty to a man that utterly lacks character, utterly lacks compassion, lacks decency, and is the antithesis of every one

of the attitudes. >> i think that's an extraordinary point on every level. the question, "aren't you embarrassed?" presupposes that the folks who are booing actually have the capacity to be shame. but the thing about our current political moment is the absence of shame. people are doing things, gaslight, they do whatever they want to do. they will hold one position one position and the next minute, they hold another position. the absence of shame has a direct impact, i believe, on the functioning of our democracy. and in so many ways, donald trump is an avatar of that absence. he has no sense of shame. he's never embarrassed by his behavior. and to echo mika's point that you just referenced again is we can talk about trump. we can talk about his impact on the republican party. but the broader question is what are the impacts on our democracy? how is he in some ways extending

what he's done since his campaign, since his presidency? and that is undermine the deep seat of trust in our democratic process. and he's still doing it, of course with no shame. >> and ed luce, you look at what's happening here. it aligns far too closely. i know i'm not going to say nazi germany. we can just look at modern day hungary. we can look at modern-day poland. we can look at these states that have become ill liberal democracies in their own words, ill liberal democracies. and we see that this is a trend for far-right, hypernationalist political organizations where truth doesn't matter and mainstream candidates that have held these parties together as conservative coalitions, they have been -- like mitt romney,

they have been driven from the parties. >> yeah, they have. i mean, the republicans after january the 6th and after january the 20th have a choice. could they try to win back some of those suburban college-educated voters who turned away from them, who used to be the bedrock incidentally of republican support. or would they double down on the stolen election narrative? and they've doubled down on the stolen election narrative. they've given up hope of winning over part-time republicans and they're doubling down on this idea of shrinking the electorate. if you don't like the people, dissolve them and get a new one. and that is a classic hallmark of what the victor orr bands of this world is doing. biden's victory was a great blow for western the liberal

democracy. it was a great event that stemmed some of the decline of liberal democracy we've been seeing. but it's not the end of the story. the republicans are getting worse. next year, the french have a presidential election in which the far rights under marine la penn have a reasonable chance of winning. we're still in a crisis here. and the direction, you know, watching trump on that patio at mar-a-lago, it's like watching barry manilow doing his great hit in las vegas, but it is deeply alarming that the party is following this man. >> i would actually love to see barry manilow in las vegas. >> no -- >> "mandy," you go down the list -- >> i should have added. no disrespect to barry manilow

at all. >> some of his -- >> no, that's quite okay. we might say milli vanilli in las vegas. jonathan lemire, there is, of course, a consequence to all of this. and we don't know what's going to happen in 2022, because the republicans historically should be lined up to have a very good run at it especially in the house. if they win, it should be because of tactics, not an overarching strategy and tactics can help them survive for the next two to four years. but you look at the arc of history here, and you see this political party falling in on itself, like the wigs did, like the know-nothings did. and you start looking again like we have over the past four years. you start looking at states like georgia. you start looking at states like arizona. they're about to overreach in arizona, do something extraordinarily stupid in arizona after three recounts. after one court after another

said that arizona was a clean recount. they're going to upset more suburban voters. so you take a state like georgia, where atlanta is too big to be overrun by trump supporters in rural areas. arizona is the same with phoenix being too large. where you have educated voters and suburban voters or former republicans to be overrun by trump supporters out in the country who may just not follow the truth or may just look at facebook all day. and then weir going to be adding north carolina to that list. that was close, but four years from now, more educated people coming into north carolina, you look at the patterns there. you're going to have a republican party that is going to start with phoenix or with arizona, with georgia, with north carolina out of their columns. makes it almost impossible for these people to win. and yet, instead of trying to

figure out -- reach out to the suburban voters of atlanta, the suburban voters of phoenix. those suburban voters and integrity voters in the research triangle in north carolina, they're going the other direction. like, these self-infliction of wounds. it just continues. and were i a republican, i would just say, my god, this is preposterous, this is dangerous. wake up. but they aren't waking up from this trump nightmare that they've put themselves in. >> such a nightmare. >> they are not. i'll start by wishing mika a belated happy birthday, too. but this is the president -- the former president still has a stranglehold on the party here, joe. and it does seem like there may be a short-term window for success. but long-term, very perilous for the republican party. as much as they might like to think that some of the states that trump put into their column

in 2016 and biden only won narrowly. that michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania trio. that maybe those are places where the republican party can grow in the future, it would be more than offset if they lose places, if they lies georgia, arizona, north carolina, and more go out of their column forever. they are, though, it is clear, not willing to break from his spell. and they are doubling down on this lie about election fraud, only cozying themselves up further to him. and they are seeing a lit must test. we're seeing mitt romney get booed, we're seeing liz cheney have her leadership position threatened with a clear signal that if you're not fully onboard, there is not really a place for you in what is now the mainstream of the republican party, which is the trumpist part of the republican party. that is still shaped in his image, whether or not he runs in 2024 or he doesn't. the chatter among people close to him is still that he probably won't, but no decision has been made. and they are talking about him

being back on the road before too long, holding some release perhaps or some sort of speaking engagements over the summer. and the white house and democrats are looking at this warily. they know, history shows that the party that's not in power does well in the midterms. they are betting this could be an exception. because they feel like the voting public will be turned off by the republicans' lie, and they believe that biden will be successful with these massive programs, delivering things into the hands and pockets of americans that they want. and thinking that they'll, right before the midterms, have a real economic recovery. a real booming economy, which will also bode well. joe, i'll close on the final point, that i'm struck by the logistics of the set-up of mar-a-lago. there's a microphone there every night for the president to just wander out and talk. there's a house band that's apparently there every night, anytime he wants to talk. maybe it's 5:00 and 9:00.

>> these are his customers that -- >> this is your fearless leader right here that everybody -- just, oh, my god. >> so there's a band on hand to do, what, like baa-dum-bump? i don't get it. charlie, we'll close with you. let's look at what happened in texas with this very conservative mean, who actually talked like republicans used to talk before donald trump became president, ended up with like 3% of the vote. you look at what's happening in wyoming, where liz cheney's political future is endangered. and there really are very few good signs. it leads me to wonder, could a guy that you saw and i saw from the time he was 25, growing up in public service, who eventually became speaker of the house, paul ryan -- could paul ryan be speaker of the house

right now for this republican party? >> no, no chance. in fact, ronald reagan couldn't win a primary in the republican party these days. you know what's really extraordinary about the liz cheney and the mitt romney stories right now, is look at their actual voting records. liz cheney is, she's not like us, joe. she's not a squishy rino, she has a plus 95% rating from conservative groups. she was a trump loyalist up until january 6th. mitt romney's not voting for the biden agenda. my point is here that these are republicans that are very conservative, have been very consistent, and yet, because of the one issue, the lack of loyalty, blind loyalty to donald trump, they're being cast out. so there is no other litmus test. it does not matter whether you have been a fiscal conservative, whether you have voted down the

line with the republican party. this is the only thing that counts right now. whether you will buy the big lie, whether you will defend donald trump, whether you will look the other way for january 6th. and i don't see any indication that that's changing anytime soon. >> well, you know, my squishy former republican friend, i had a 95% lifetime acu rating. the other 5%, they just scored them wrong. and so it's been -- it's so fascinating, when i people come up to me in the airports and say, oh, i liked you when you used to be a conservative. and i would say, so tell me, ideological, other than not supporting donald trump, name an issue i've changed on? and of course, they can't. because it's not about ideology. it's not about ideas. it's not about the things that have shaped republican debates and have shaped conservative debates and have shaped debates in america over the past 240

years. it's nothing but tribalism and this personality cult. and charlie, our party has had a lot of flaws, but could you ever imagine that we would get to this point where ideology doesn't matter. a 95% lifetime rating didn't matter. liz cheney's 95% acu rating didn't matter. it's all weather you support and are a member of this personality or not. >> and this personality cult. yes, it's extraordinary, having lived through it, it's still amazing watching the party become -- you and i both remember when we thought the republicans were the party of idea. forget that. it's become a cult of personality. but a cult of this personality. that guy on the floor at mar-a-lago with the open mic, that's personality cult that

this party has chosen and they have rejected all of the other issues, all of the other leaders have been cast out. and that's really extraordinary. and i agree with jonathan lemire that yeah, there's a possibility of short-term victory, but long-term, it's hard to imagine that this is sustainable. >> you know, yeah, i completely agree. and we'll be talking about more about this in a while. but by the way, if you are in or your family are in the mar-a-lago area over the next week, he will be performing every night, singing -- well, he's going to do a lot of the hits from rogers and hammerstein. the repertoire is pretty amazing. two shows, one at 5:00, early bird special, and one at 9:00. tip your waiters. >> it's actually, really -- i think it's really sad.

we were at the capitol last week and walking around the empty capitol and seeing capital police were doing their jobs, but a pal was cast over this empty building that was echoing. this was our united states capitol. >> it was really heartbreaking. >> it was hard not to cry. >> every time i go into the capitol -- >> it was dead quiet in there. >> not just for that building, but more important for the men and women who work inside it. and it has long been for the men and women who work on both side of the aisle, who were trying to make this country better. right now, there are about 175, 180 people who unfortunately aren't a part of that shared american experience. they're following a personality cult. they tried deliberatelily to undermine the constitution. they tried deliberately to

ignore federal rulings from federal judges. many of whom were written by trumpsters. and were actually decided by judges that were appointed by donald trump. and they just didn't like what the federal judges said or the local officials said, so they tried to overturn the election results. so it was sad. but the capitol hill police officers, boy, you really feel for them. and they really need all of our support and -- i felt for our country walking around that building. >> mika, happy birthday today. and willie's birthday is today. >> while you were putting on your tie and jacket, i wished him a happy birthday. >> hopefully, we will -- maybe we can get a call from the birthday boy this morning. >> oh, well! he's quite busy. quite a party for his birthday.

>> huge garden party. >> charlie sykes, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," a look at efforts to get america reopened as the biden administration restricts travel to india amid the covid surge there. and breaking news overnight at the southern border, as the biden administration works to right one of the trump administration's biggest wrongs. the separation of migrant families. and a majority of americans say they are more optimistic about the coming year. we'll tell you the last time the number was that high. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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35 past the hour. back now to the fight against

the coronavirus as vaccinations rise and case numbers begin to plateau. state mandates vary across the country with some states having no mandate at all. some states have eased their mask mandates, but with certain caveats such as in colorado, alabama, georgia who have the most aggressive reopening plans. most businesses there are open as full capacity. michigan, which now has a decreasing case right after a troubling surge has implemented a phased reopening plan, while most businesses are open with restrictions, entertainment venues still remain closed. washington state and oregon are seeing a spike in infections despite having a newer vaccination rate. the new cases appear to be among younger people, most of whom are not yet vaccinated.

governors there are imposing restrictions to try to curb the spread. oregon governor kate brown imposed new capacity restrictions as well as shutting down indoor dining. and washington governor jay inslee has said his state haze entered its fourth wave, but did not change restrictions. meanwhile, as india continues to battles a record-high covid surge, president biden will restrict travel from the country per guidance from the centers for disease control and protection. a white house official tells nbc news, the policy will not apply to american citizens, lawful permanent residents, or other exempted individuals. but these groups will still need to follow testing protocol for all international travelers. the situation in india is still extremely dire. on sunday alone, the country announced nearly 3,700 deaths

and over 390,000 new infections in 24 hours. joining us now is dr. vin gupta, he's a pulmonologist and an nbc news medical contributor. >> doctor, thank you so much for being with us. let's sort through some of things -- first of all, just terrible things going on in india. let's sort through some of the things going on in our own country right now. a hodgepodge of openings, reopenings across the united states, we've been told that if you've been vaccinated, you can go maskless outside. when your friends call you and ask you what's safe, what's not safe? what's your general guidance to them? >> good morning, joe. my general guidance to them is to enjoy the things that they've long wanted to do. whether it's going out to eat, going to the ballpark, i've been advising a few clubs about safe reopenings of larger events. to do those things, but follow masking guidance when you're going to the concession stand,

when you're closer to people where distancing is still not yet possible. but you can start to normalize your life, joe. which is a larger point here, that really to open up small and medium businesses, the question here is how do we do that? how do we remove some of these burdensome mitigation initiatives that have been in place for 14 months. we can't do that without some fort of vaccine verification. it's impossible to continue to limit indoor capacity without having the ability to say you're clear, no, you're not clear because you haven't gotten the vaccine. that is the quickest way to reopen and we'll be doing that more broadly. you'll see the airline industry, the restaurant industry, probably professional sports teams move towards that path and i think that's a smart path. >> and when do we get to a point where it's getting close now where if you want a vaccine, certainly in our state, if you want a vaccine, you can get a vaccine. at what point do we just open things up and those who don't

have the vaccine and they choose not to have a vaccine, have the freedom to not have that vaccine. also, of course, have the freedom to get sick. >> except they end up in our emergency rooms. >> just like people who smoke cigarettes. we don't go up to people and take cigarettes out of people's mouths when they're smoking cigarettes. at some point, people make choices and they have to deal with the consequences of their choices. . we can't keep america closed down for those people who are too stubborn to get vaccines, can we? >> joe, let me answer this this way. what we don't want to do is enter a false sense of security, where we reach 60% coverage of the vaccine. warmer weather, we know coronavirus doesn't like warmer weather. it likes cold, dry air. so we'll be lulled into this false sense of security where case rates remain low. we know hospitalizations are going to hopefully continue to decline. 80 to 85% capacity in most zip

codes across the country. but what we don't want is that situation, false sense of security. because fall/winter, that's when we can see a fourth wave across the country. that's why it's really important for all of you out there who are still considering getting the vaccine, i think most people are reachable, when i walk to them, younger individuals. they just want to have a conversation. we can really not say, let's put our hands up and 60% is okay. they are reachable. we just have to reach them better. >> for instance, you talked about the fall. every school, i think most parents would say, every school better be open in the fall. when i drive past small businesses, whether it's in washington, d.c. or boston and i see all of these small businesses still closed, you just sit there and go, wait a second, we've got well over 100 million people with vaccines in their arms. why can't we open up all of these places. people can wear masks.

they can do social distancing. they can have ventilation in the stores and we can stop every small last small business owner from going bankrupt. i just think -- you know, we've been talking about this for a year and i've been very conservative with a small "c." follow the science, follow guidance. wear your mask. do your social distancing. i still believe the same things. i just believe at this point, we also have mental health challenges. we have huge economic challenges for small business owners. at what point do we reopen this country and follow those distancing guidelines and follow those mask guidelines, when you are inside a building. >> i'll say in response to that, joe, the biggest issue to normalcy the distancing issue. whether it's a restaurant or a small business that's selling retail, if you have -- how can we quickly off-ramp distance measures? and the quickest way to do that

is either mandate the proof of a vaccination or a negative test. we need to introduce friction into the system. if you've gotten a vaccine, if restaurants can verify one or the other, they can get to 100% capacity here. that is the carrot here and that's what small businesses need. they cannot continue distancing. that to me is the policy here that's killing small businesses. we need to get to 100% capacity for them to truly normalize the economy. >> jonathan lemire of the ap is here and has a question. >> good to see you. i wanted to shift our focus to india and what is a cataclysmic situation here. a country on fire with this covid outbreak. what are you seeing? i know you're following this. what do you see in terms of trends there? is there any signs of hope or are things still getting worse? we know the u.s. is sending vaccine supplies. there's an effort to get more vaccines into arms there, but it's an effort that is failing

to this point. how dangerous is the situation in india and how bad could it be for the rest of the world if some new variants emerge? >> good morning, jonathan. you know, this is an exceptionally dangerous situation. maybe the most dangerous situation we've seen in the last 15 months, certainly of my lifetime, from a health crisis standpoint. 1.2 million additional deaths are expected in india. 1.2, just in the next three months. and that's just what we know, jonathan. they're measuring about 13,000 deaths potentially in the next four weeks. again, what we know. some estimates say we're not measuing -- for every recorded death, there's four unrecorded deaths. the numbers are cataclysmic. and in my view, what we're doing from a governmental support standpoint has been dwarfed by what the private sector is doing. we're talking about many fold more. they need hundreds if not millions of oxygen canisters to

mitigate the immediate loss of life. not vaccines. vaccines will ultimately be what gets them out of it. but another key point here is, they're not going to have enough vaccines for the rest of 2021. they have two approved vaccines now. sputnik is on the way. they need johnson & johnson badly. we immediate to lift the patent process so they can hopefully produce more vaccines in country. so that's going to be vital. but immediately, jonathan, to stem the immediate loss of life, there's things that we can do. there's still something that we can do. there's a capability of the part of the u.s. air force. we should deploy that. it's a mobile icu capability, typically used to move soldiers from bagram back to walter we'd, for example, but we have that capability. if we do so, it might set an example for other countries to do similar types of deployments of critical military assets. obviously, the modi government has to be willing to accept that. they should ask the biden administration for that tactical

resource. and we need regeneron and ely lilly to consider donating therapeutics, perhaps subcuneal therapeutics. >> it is a terrible situation, dr. vin gupta. thank you so much for being with us. and ed, you also talked about the dire situation in india and we want to get you on this, but also upon another issue. while the u.s. economy grew in the first months of 2021, i think we're on the path to over 6% gdp growth in 2021. the european economy is actually trending in the other direction with covid-19 outbreaks and lockdowns, the eurozone gdp shrunk actually by 6% from january -- 0.6% from january to ma, which is in line with a

similar drop at the end of 2020. after big gains last fall, germany saw the largest decline. france reported a small economic uptick, but that doesn't take into account the national lockdown put into place at the end of march. the u.s. saw the gdp grow by 1.6% over the same time period. in 2020, we saw one statistic after another where people would look at the statistics and go, my god, it seems like the europeans are ahead of us on covid, on covid prevention, on making all the right moves while we seem to be stumbling along. and here we are in 2021, it's a completely different story on vaccinations, on infections, and on the economy. can you tell me, what is the difference between the united

states and the struggles of the eu right now? what has made the difference over this past year? >> so i think the key thing is vaccination rollout. the europeans were quite late in their procurement conversations with the vaccine companies. there was then the pausing with astrazeneca and the dispute that's going on between the european commission in brussels and astrazeneca over claims that it's not fulfilling its contracts. but the big picture is here european's vaccination rate is at about a quarter of the level of the united states. and until they get that up to the levels that we're now beginning to see in america, and the levels that britain's been achieving for a while now, european growth is going to remain stuck in the mud. that's becoming quite an acute problem, because europeans do not give up their summers

lightly. last year, europeans essentially abandoned most covid restrictions, went on vacation, gathered in big crowds, and we saw the seeding of the sec big wave that hit in the winter. there's no government that has the power to stop them doing the psalm thing again. it's such a basic european right. and so, there have been some signs in the last few days that vaccine rates picked up. last week, there were a couple of days when there were higher rates of vaccination in europe than there were in america. just one final point, though, about growth. if you look at the american, very strong rebound that we're seeing. it's in parts of america. the map of america shows that vaccination rates are showing in the red states, and infection rates are either not falling or in some cases rising in the red states. we're not out of the woods yet in the united states. there is still a lot of vaccine

hesitancy to overcome. so, ed, how much of black eye has been the failed vaccination rollout for the eu in this post-brexit world? >> it's, you know, kind of an unearned windfall for boris johnson. britain's numbers are pretty dramatic. the last few days, they've had 12-15 deaths a day. only a few weeks ago, they were getting up to 1,000, 1,500 deaths a day. rates of infection in britain are about 2,000 a day. again, there were well over 100,000 in january/february. that's a dramatic -- it's dropped off a cliff because britain has vaccinated people. it's a major victory for those who argued for brexit. and they argument being that the european union is bureaucratic,

interfering, inefficient. well, at precisely the time european happened, they've given a demonstration of that. >> why has the eu failed so miserably on this extraordinary challenge that they knew was coming? why did they fail on the vaccines? why did they fail on not ordering enough? why did they fail on not getting enough europeans vaccinated? so they ceded their negotiating power to brussels, the european commission. it's not a government. it doesn't respond like governments go to electorates. it doesn't have any experience with this so they were pushing to get slightly cheaper vaccines, that dollar off the price me want a delay in the delivery, because negotiations take tyke. they were trying to squeeze on price. of course, every dollar saved on a vaccine, every week lost in

its delivery is hundreds of millions, if not billions of euros lost in economic activity. it's a totally false economy to try to squeeze on prize when what you want is speed. and they sacrificed that. and i think it's a real -- a teachable moment for europe about the remoteness of brussels from ordinary democratic signals, that governments -- the government of france, the government of germany, they're no different than the government of britain. they respond to electorates. brussels is pretty shielded from democratic pressure, and i think that's a large part of the reason why these vaccines are taking so long. >> does anybody doubt -- and i don't mean to beat this issue into the ground, but does anybody really doubt that if the germans were negotiating for their own vaccinations, that if

the french would be negotiating for their own, they would be in a far better place right now. they would have been far more aggressive, they would have been far more intense in making sure that, yeah, they got a good deal, but their people were going to be taken care of. >> there's no doubt whatsoever. there is another thing i mentioned to this be with which is the european union has been exporting to vaccines to the developing world. to africa, to india, to other parts of the world. they've exported roughly as many as they've put in european arms. so they're playing a very constructive role globally. britain and america have overordered vaccines very sensibly. america has probably ordered about 300% of what it needs. but we're not exporting them yet. we're keeping them beech got a sort of soft measuring first,

britain first there. and as this horrific catastrophe unfold in india and has the potential to unfold in other parts of the world, we're going to need to take that leaf from europe's book. we're going to need to export vaccines in our interest, not just for human taper reasons, but to protect ourselves, we're going to need to have, i think, a global marshal plan to put vaccines in people's arms around the world. that's one thing europe has been doing correctly. but it should be vaccinating its own people as well. >> ed luce, thank you very very much. and coming up, new reporting on the search of rudy giuliani's apartment and office. how concerned should giuliani and his former client donald trump be? our legal panel weighs in. you're back in two munns. introducing voltaren arthritis pain gel. the first full prescription strength

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okay. at 56 past some sports moments to show you now. >> a couple of cars coming in from schenectady. let's check out this catch yesterday from the game. a fan catches a ball bare handed and manages to hold on to his ice cream. >> keep the cone safe. >> can we look at that again? >> that is unbelievable. >> that is a guy who values -- he knows that the ice cream is more important than the baseball and he gets to hand it --

>> how awesome. >> -- to his girlfriend. this is a scene straight out of ferris bueller's day off. he gets it, holds the ice cream, passes it over to his friend. steve kornacki was back in action over the weekend. this time, it was the first saturday in may. derby day, the kentucky derby da. swapping the map for odd on the kentucky derby's breakdown and here was his pre-prediction before the race. >> i scoured the board, i have 11 different theories but here's one. bob baffert, six-time kentucky derby winner has a horse that can get at or near the front of this race and is double-digit odds. i'll take a shot on baffert 12-1, medina spirit. >> all right, kornacki better watch his back if he ever sees anybody who looks like tom cruise coming towards him subpoena is going to be grabbed,

flown to vegas on qantas. the only airline that has a crash. qantas, because he's rain man. that guy will go out and make some money for anybody that takes -- he was the only one of the nbc sports bro broadcast team to pick medina spirit who did go on to win the race. >> he had the khakis on. >> i'm taking him to pimlico. >> i'm serious. >> i hope he likes baltimore. i'm taking him to pimlico. we're going there on may 15th. and now, i'm sure roger is a huge derby fan. let's go to nbc sports cohost roger bennett, and author of the forthcoming book >> this will change the arc.

it's entitled "reborn in the usa: an englishman's love letter to his chosen home." but roger, i don't know that all americans were feeling the loved in england this past weekend. >> it's true. you showed two beautiful american sports clips and we have to watch a bit of englishman hooliganism. two weeks ago, it was the announcement of the super league, which collapsed within 48 hours. repercussions still being felt. manchester united fans stormed their own stadium, taking to the field to protest against their owners, tampa bay buccaneers, who they seem to be absentee landlords, interested only in profit off the field and not success on it. i have to say, i found it very emotional to witness this conflicting emotions, astonishment, sadness, empathy.

in all my decades watching english football, i've never seen anything like this. there were echos of the hooligan darkness i grew up with in the 1980s, but these weren't two teams fighting each other, these were team fans fighting against their own owners. the game, the marquee clash. this would be like the dallas cowboys about to play the 49ers, canceled on monday night football, because the dallas cowboys fans stormed their own field. it's unprecedented and it's realization that the apologies of the blazers won't suffice. and there has to be change in the game. either of the owners or the structure of ownership itself. >> well, you know, roger, this is a problem. when we went over and did some reporting on arsenal, you couldn't get them to actually talk about their football team. it was all about -- the american owners. they feel like whether it's arsenal fans or man u fans, they

feel like they've gone american onerous who own that. and you look at fenway, but there's not that feeling towards fenway sports group with the liverpool owners. football and sports in general are a mirror of the fans that surround it. society in england is at a breaking point. and i see something very powerful in this moment as i watch it. these football-based demonstrations. a lot of americans are saying, i wish english people cared about climate change or economic disparity as much as they did about football.

and i see all of these scenes of anger, expressive football, but this is so much bigger than football. >> it certainly is. any other news for weekend, roger, from the world of european football. >> i know mika will be annoyed if we don't see a little bit of action. let's look at resurgent chelsea. i love this goal. mason mount plucks the ball out of the either, before all the love and tenderness of a man catching a baby dropped from the sky by a stork. finishes clinically. the german who looks like an 18th century romantic poet suffers from consumption. and finally, your runaway

leaders. stevy wonder, master blaster pb and abu dhabi and manchester city within touching distance of their fifth premiere title. i'm like a bob baffert trained horse in the derby. just give him the trophy. why even hold the race, joe. >> i don't know. i don't know. i'm looking at liverpool. i don't think they'll be able to get up to the top four. but an 18th century poet struck with consumption. a romantic poet with consumption. you've just described most of the mornings i crawl on this show. >> okay, we're going to wrap it. we'll be tuning into the men in blazers show. thank you, roger. literally leading our show. now to the latest on the investigation into whether rudy giuliani violated foreign lobbying laws. nbc news has obtained the names

of some of the associates listed in the warrants with whom giuliani may have been in contact about former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, mare yovanovitch. they include lev parnas, victor shokin, and frequent fox news guests, attorneys joe digenova and victoria tunsing. tunsing was also served with a search warrant last week related to the investigation. "the wall street journal" reported on friday that the warrants to seize giuliani's electronic devices sought communications with anyone who may have worked with the former attorney president trump on the push to have yovanovitch ousted from her position or on pressure ing ukrainian authorities to

investigate the biden family. as "the journal" reports, rudy giuliani's efforts were at the center of mr. trump's first impeachment on charges that he abused his power in seeking ukraine's help in his 2020 election bid. giuliani attorney robert costello told nbc news that his client did not do any lobying of foreign officials. he called the search warrants, quote, legal thuggery and said he spoke with alan dershowitz about constitutional issues related to the searches. giuliani has not been charged with any offenses. let's bring in justice department reporter for "the new york times," katie benner, an msnbc contributor. also with us, dave aaronberg, the ap's jonathan lemire, and princeton professor eddie glaude jr. are still with us, as well. dave, from the face of it, from what we know, does giuliani have

any reason to worry. >> good morning and happy belated birthday, mika. >> thank you. you, too. >> may the fourth be with you is mine. >> yes, he does have a lot to worry about. the last time that a the feds raided a personal lawyer's home and ended in a prison sentence and giuliani does not want to be michael cohen 2.0. the foreign agency act is a real existential threat to giuliani's freedom. prosecutors love this law. it's pretty low-hanging fruit. pretty cut and dried. it's not a like bribery case where you've got to get into his mind and talk about the interpretation of his words. and although it's relatively easy for prosecutors, the penalties are pretty stiff. you can get up to five years in federal prison. and the reason why the penalties a tough, is because fara is important.

you want to prevent foreign influence in our laws and public opinion. and manafort pled guilty to fara and got prison time until donald trump pardoned him, but there is no donald trump around to save rudy giuliani. you have a guy who's desperate, erratic, and whose defense is based on his alleged belief that he was working on behalf of the former guy. but the former guy is saying, no, he is working on his own. and if that conflict continues to grow, i could see how rudy would flip on donald trump and turn state's witness. so i bet right now donald trump wishes he had given rudy a pardon when he had the chaps. >> katie benner, we have jonathan remire with us who has a question. >> katie, great work following this story. can you give us big picture what the story is with giuliani right

now, in terms of the various threads that prosecutors are pursuing. we know this investigation has gone on for quite some time, dating back years in some cass. what sort of jeopardy could he face. but is there a suggestion that he, himself, could eventually turn state's witness and perhaps be helpful in other cases? >> i don't want to get inside of rudy giuliani's head or try to go there, but i think what we do know is that to your point for two years, the fbi has been looking into rudy giuliani's contacts with various people in ukraine. and what they've been trying to figure out is whether or not the actions that he was taking, whether that was trying to organize a smear campaign against joe biden and hunter biden, whether he's trying to oust an ambassador for the ukraine, whether he was doing that on behalf of people in

ukraine, which would run him afoul of foreign lobbying laws, or whether he was doing it to his -- to what he says, which was on behalf of former president trump. what is interesting here is no matter what the fbi finds, joule himself has collapsed the interest of donald trump and foreign powers and shown that the former president had foreign powers at heart and in his mind and were a priority before the interest of the american people. >> we have eddie glaude with us who has a question. >> i'm so kid to ask katie benner a question. i actually taught her at bowden college when she was a young -- this is really surreal for me. >> that's really well. >> katie, i get to ask you a question. you see i'm smiling like a chess cat here. should we read this as an

indication of the justice department looking more deeply into, you know, the trump administration? should we think that something else might be coming down the pike. not simply with regards to giuliani, but with regards to the last four years, more generally. and it is great to see you, by the way. >> it is so great to see you, too. absolutely. we looked back a few years ago at impeachment part one, remember, there were two, of course. impeachment one, what we saw is we saw the justice department really try to separate itself from what was going on publicly. public trials, it felt like a state department issue. what we were seeing with the giuliani case is that prosecutors and investigators inside of the department were still very curious about what was going on in ukraine and how the president played into that. we also know that people have worried that there would have to be yet another investigation of the president. while the justice department said there was no campaign finance time, there were prosecutors in the public integrity unit who saw it and

they said, there could still be a crime here. what we're seeing is the justice department continuing to pursue the one thread that it would seem to be allowed to pursue in 2019 with an eye toward being very broad in scope. i would not say that this means that there will be other open investigations. i would not say that this would mean there will be indictments. only that we're seeing a department that's now fairly unfettered, where prosecutors feel they can do their jobs under a leadership that has said, so under attorney general merrick garland and deputy attorney general lisa monaco, both of whom have said, they trust career prosecutors and trust their judgment. >> thank you very much for being with us, katie. we greatly appreciate it. i know your former instructor appreciates you being here, as well. thank you so much, katie. we greatly appreciate it. dave, let me ask you that question that -- this keeps

coming at us, okay? and you're an active prosecutor, so you can answer the question. it seemed during the trump administration, we heard from the trump justice department, we heard that don junior, you know, leaks, don junior was going to be arrested. we heard that, you know, jared kushner was going to be arrested. i remember back during the george w. bush administration, don't be too far from the studio, because karl rove is going to be indicted this friday. don't be too far from the studio. it happened like 5:00, 6:00, 7:00 weeks in a row. it's this friday that karl rove is going to get indicted. karl rove never got indicted. matt gaetz, we've been hearing about this investigation now for about a month and a half, maybe. and we keep hearing the same thing. they're trying to figure out whether he had sex with a

17-year-old girl. all right, well, they probably know by now, and yet, we keep hearing it. the leaks keep coming and they keep coming in all of these different directions. now it's rudy giuliani and the leaks are coming out on rudy giuliani and now it's victoria tunsing. and now it's joe dady engineva. if my people keep leaking stuff like this, they're fired! how long are we going to keep like putting people out there -- by the way, i'll say this for democrats, as well, too. so don't come after me on twitter. and by the way, if you have your name out there for two, three, four months, oh, he's going to jail, and then he doesn't go to jail, it's like that old ray donovan question, where do i go to get my reputation back?

but this goes on all the time, dave! and i'm trying to figure out why don't they just -- if they got a case, then bring the charges, try the case! why do they keep leaking to all of these new agencies, oh, well, we're investigating -- don't tell us what you're investigating! investigate, bring the charges or don't bring the charges. please, i am the last to defend rudy giuliani on what he's done over the past four or five years politically, but what happens if they don't bring the charges? this hangs over his head. karl rove, it hung over his head for a couple of years. at what point do they stop leaking inside the fbi and just do their damned job? and if you've got something to charge somebody with us, charge them. we heard this over and over

again during the trump administration, during the trump justice department. while they were in charge? at what point do they stop the investigation. it really is outrageous and it's un-american. joe, i hear you, and the federal prosecutors do take longer than state and local prosecutors. and it's true that you just wish that they would just make the decision and not have this hanging over people's heads, but i think a lot of leaks don't come from prosecutors, like, you brought up the matt gaetz case. the recent revelation that there was a confession from joel greenberg. i think that probably came from joel greenberg's side. i think he wanted that out there to help pressure federal prosecutors to come up with a better deal. the may 15th deal is approaching. and if he can get this out in the court of public opinion, it turns more opinion against

matt gaetz and increases the value -- >> but i've got to stop you right there and say, there's a great example. daily beast put something out. nbc hasn't matched that. it's just like, you know, buzzfeed put out the steele dossier before nbc and other people matched that. gep, what would you do if these leaks kept coming out of your office? oh, right now we're trying to consider whether we're going after county commissioner "x." and it's hanging out in the palm beach post for three months. >> that is a real no-no. you can't be leaking information about a current investigation. you can't even be talking about a current investigation. that would be terrible. one of the reasons to get back to matt gaetz is that it's not just child sex trafficking that

the feds are investigating. they're trying to see if gaetz was involved with identity theft and maybe campaign finance violations and nose are tougher investigations, because it's not just whether he had relations with a 17-year-old. that you can pretty much determine from talking to the 17-year-old, talking to joel greenberg and getting the corroboration. but there are other issues at stake here. the identity theft. the campaign finance and so this is all part of a big mix. and you'll know a lot by may 15th when the deadline approaches. if he cuts a good deal, that means he's giving up the coast on matt gaetz. and as far as rudy is concerned, we'll have to see, my friend, because that one is not going away. and we just learned of the search warrant's execution. this investigation started two years ago and rudy was protected by the doj, but he's not being protected any longer. >> by the way, i'm not just talking about republicans

here -- there are -- i've heard so much frustration from democrats. i'm so sicked and tired of hearing such and such is going to jail and they leak it to "the washington post," they leak it to the "wall street journal" and we hear that "x," "y," and "z" is going to jail. they try them in the media for a couple of months end and up they don't have what it takes to bring the case. just enough is enough. >> either you have the case or don't have the case. keep your mouth shut, bring the charges or don't bring the charges. it seems un-american to me, dave. thank you for having us at your birthday party this past weekend. >> that was socially distanced fun. >> yeah. so anyway, mika, it's frustrate ing and again, we've heard this from people who voted against donald trump, who don't like rudy giuliani, who don't like a lot of the things that have been going on. how many times have have you

heard the fbi, we have so-and-so and we're going to bring charges. it's just up fair to these people. whether you love them or hate them. because let me tell you something, let me tell you something, if this is happening to people you don't like right now, most likely -- >> it's going to happen to people that you do like. and they're going to have their reputation just shred ed shredd the government says, oh, we're not going to bring the charges after all. >> now to developments in the beginning of the end of america's longest war. over the weekend, on may the 1st, the biden administration began withdrawing the remainder of america's troops in afghanistan. the pullout will take several months with the last remaining soldiers leaving the country by the end of the summer. the previous administration negotiated an end to u.s. military involvement which the

1-800-that would have seen all troops out of the region by the first of this month, but president biden extended the withdrawal plan. the associated press reports the taliban is still deciding how it will respond. with us, we have the president of the council on foreign relations, richard haas. >> go ahead, mika. >> well, your thoughts on the actual beginning here. this is months away now, what is it going to look like and what can we expect from the taliban as a response? >> good morning, mika, and happy birthday. >> thank you. >> look, i think the real question is whether the taliban had discipline. if they show some discipline and don't attack u.s. troops as u.s. troops withdraw over the next four months, they will get what they want. they will essential be in a position, poised, i believe, to take over much of the country.

if they start attacking u.s. forces during this four to five month period of u.s. military withdrawal, u.s. forces will engage them to some extent. it's not clear how that helps the taliban in their long-term goal . >> so, richard, you've seen some things happening over the past couple of weeks since joe biden made this announcement. how concerned are you that things are going to devolve very quickly? we talked to dexter filkins last week, one of the best war correspondents of our time, who has been going into afghanistan since 1998, 1999. he's certain things will get worse fast? >> he's 100% right. we've already seen stories in the last few days about how the taliban are establishing totally unauthorized checkpoints around the country, and very close to the capitol city of kabul.

this has now reached the point of when, not whether. you will see, again, a taliban takeover of much of the country. there's also precious little evidence, joe, that the taliban have evolved significantly, either in how they plan to treat large numbers of their own people, particularly women and girls. i'm not confident that they're going to make it impossible for terrorist groups to use afghan soil. this is not going to be their priority. within months or at most years, i think we could see an afghanistan that looks something like it looked 15, 20 years ago. and i don't think that's a stretch. >> i want to talk about a couple of failures in leadership across the world. the first being the eu. we were talking to ed luce, "financial times," about the failures of the eu on the vaccine. and if you supported brexit, you

have to be looking at what's happening in the eu and say, oh, this is why we don't want brussels to make decisions for germany or france or for our own country, because you see what's happened. there's been this sloppy, inept, lethargic approach to getting vaccinations for the entire eu. and they're suffering for it now. >> absolutely. and the overcaution about safety, in some ways, what we had with the j&j pause here has been their policy since the get-go has really hurt them. there's a real tragedy here. at the beginning of the pandemic, the eu actually sign some signs of life. for the first time in years, we saw franco/german cooperation. we saw the european economic leaders step up and they were mimicking what the fed was doing here in terms of making money available for europe. and it looked like they would cushion the blow, so you had some economic progress in the

eu. it has now been obliterated by the mishandling of the vaccine side. >> so richard, finally, india, what has caused the meltdown the india, what should america do? >> caused in large part by an uneven public health system. the government led up way too early, was basically taking a victory lap long before it should have and allowed political rallies to happen, large religious gatherings. the country is overwhelmed. we should be exporting vaccines, the technology, libsing them for local production. but we should be exporting vaccines. we now have two forms of vaccine hesitancy, joe. one as you talked about early on the show, americans unwilling to take the vaccine, and now we have a second form of vaccine he has hesitancy, our reluctance to

export vaccines. this will hurt u.s. relationships around the world. this will create openings for the russians, china and others. this is really shortsighted. >> richard, finally, i want to bring you in on something that's a little bit out of your domain. but like me, you're a conservative with small "c." i'm not asking you to agree with me here. i love when people disagree with me on this show. but i've got to ask you, you probably heard my rant talking about leaks, constant leaks coming from the fbi. constant leaks coming from federal prosecutors. nay did it with karl rove back in 2005, sixth. every friday he was going to be indicted. they did it throughout the trump administration. they're doing it now and now the

latest is rudy giuliani. and i'm horrified by his activities, but they may not be criminal. this whole idea that we hang people out there, oh, we're investigating rudy for this and gaetz for that and joe dee genova and row read those stories for six months and suddenly, poof, we're not bringing charges. it seems so un-american to me. and this went on during the trump administration. it went on during the obama and bush administrations. this is really -- how do we get our arms around this, richard? >> when you began that lead up, i hoped you were going to discuss the american league east, so i'm disappointed given trends there.

this was eliot spitzer's way of court. you prosecute people in the press and in they be you couldn't win in court or even bring it to court. wait until you have a case. wait until you've got it and carry it out where it was spend to be carried out. in a court of law. but to play in the court of public opinion seems to me to put it bluntly, it's both counterproductive, but also un-american. that seems to me it violates the presumption of innocence until proven otherwise. >> totally agree. >> it is un-american and we're saying this about people with whom i disagree on politics greatly. i'm warning you, if you are a progressive that may cheer on rudy giuliani getting in the newspaper. i promise you, this is un-american. it has continued. the space of it has gone up. and when they turn on people that you support or a member of

your family, you'll understand just how dangerous and how un-american this is. prosecutors trying cases in the court of public opinion. it needs to stop. and i hope merrick garland will really crack down on this friend that has been going on for decades. >> richard haas, thank you very, very much for being on with us this morning. we want to turn now to the new abc news/ipsos poll that shows nearly two-thirds, 64% are mystic about the direction of the country. the last time americans came close to that level of optimism was about the coming year was in december of 2006. >> let's stop here for a second. just look at these numbers here for a second. >> 64%! >> jonathan lemire, if you look through the years for right

track/wrong track, these numbers are almost unheard of. i'm not crediting joe biden, i'm not crediting the boston red sox's remarkable start. i'm not crediting any of that. but these are eye-popping numbers and we're seeing more and more numbers, when we tell these stories about the republican party and getting more divisive, it seems that they're floating off into their own political island, because right track/wrong track numbers, optimism versus pessimism numbers, they're all moving up. not to a plurality, but to a majority. >> and think how much higher they would be if the red sox bull pen hasn't blown two innings this weekend. it's a striking statistic like

when barack obama won, we didn't quite see numbers like this then. and i think now, it is a few things. there's a sense of putting -- at least having donald trump step off the stage, at least center stage for a while, just how exhausting he was. and i think a lot of americans were tired of that. and i think certainly the biden administration will claim some credit for this, as well. but i think it's a sense that we're coming out of something and look, we've been spending a lot of time on the show this morning still noting that the pandemic is not completely gone and there's really worrisome hot spots elsewhere that could snap back. >> cases are down, vaccines are up. a full return to school this

fall. there's a lot to be happy about and it's being reflected in these polls and as an american, let's hope that continues. but we still need some hope in the bull pen. >> president biden and the first lady traveled today to yorktown, virginia, as part of a nationwide getting america back on track tour to gain support for biden's infrastructure package. the president launched the tour last week with a trip to georgia. he followed that up with a visit to philadelphia to celebrate the 50th anniversary of amtrak. >> we have to do more than just build back. we have to build back better. and today we have a once in a generation opportunity to position amtrak and rail and inner city rail as well in general to play a central role in our transformation of transportation economic future. to make investments that can help get back on track, no pun

intended. >> let's bring in kurt bar della. a columnist for "usa today" and the "l.a. times." and former chair of the maryland democratic party, maya cummings joins us this morning. great to have you both. kurt, i'll start with you. the president's tour across america i think is reinforcing the message that he's sending, but also perhaps those numbers we were just reporting on. nobody disagrees that it would help to reinforce our infrastructure. >> first, mika, happy belated birthday to you. i know your birthday was yesterday and i hope it was a terrific one. >> thank you. >> second of all, i think that what we're seeing and these numbers reflect that, having a president who actually has a tangible vision that the american people can wrap their arms around. infrastructure is something that

affects every facet of everyday lives. it's something that people understand. this isn't some dense, comprehensive policy that most people don't quite have their knowledge base around. how we get to where we need to go is fundamental to how we live our lives. and president biden, after hearing for five weeks that it was infrastructure, we're actually now getting what infrastructure week should look like. and the president is offering a very comprehensive and a very understandable, digestible path about what that means. and the american people are happy we're not talking every day about deranged leader's tweets. they're happy we don't have a leader that's talking about things that will benefit the american people on a real level. that's such a contrast. and i think that's why people are responding to that in those

poll numbers. >> and eddie glaude, i know you have a question for maya cummings. but it really is -- for a lot of people, transition to biden has been a transition to competence. and americans can physically see it in how the transition is being handled before their eyes in their lives. >> right, mika, every moment of crisis carries with it a moment of possibility. so these numbers reflect that we may very well not only be coming out of something as jonathan suggested, but we may be imagining ourselves differently. and that hopefulness is actually showing up in those numbers. but i want to ask maya this question. good morning. and that is although president biden is out touting his economic plan, we know there's opposition out there. we hear rhetoric from the republican side of the aisle, for example, challenging the way

in which he's imagining infrastructure. how might he respond to the kind of counterarguments, to the program that he's trying to put forward? >> thanks, eddie, for that question. i think he's already had a prebuttal to that type of question. he has republican support across the country who are actually welcoming a transition to a really competent plant for america's infrastructure. the fact that he has lined us up and he's going to sell it in cities and towns and states across the country means he's actually circumventing washington republicans who seem to be still stuck in the donald trump era of divisive politics. this is about moving the country forward and as president biden said, moving the nation toward building back better. and absolutely, it's about bridges, roads, but also about our health care infrastructure. it's about our care giving

infrastructure. and president biden has been very insightful and very credible in laying out this plan and selling it to the american people. >> maya, you talk about building bridges literally, but also building relationships back in congress, i think the big challenge for democrats is sort of january 6th line. how do you work with republicans and maybe you have the answer, but how do you work with republicans who won't say that the insurrection was wrong or was backed by donald trump? who are holding the line on the capitol insurrection, on the assault on our democracy? >> you know, it's really sad what's happened to the republican party. when i came to washington in '97, they were carrying around pocketbook constitutions that they put in their pocketing, saying the constitution was the highest order of value. that they they believed in fiscal conservatism and family

values. and every one of the things they said they believed in, especially being patriots and defending our democracy have fallen by the wayside. january 6th is evidence that the republicans have vacated their traditional values in favor of supporting donald trump wholesale. and really, that means that democrats don't have credible partners to work with. that one of our two major national parties has become basically a cult of personality. and that creates difficulties for creating bipartisanship within the beltway. >> jonathan lemire? >> kurt, there has never been a more on-trend joe biden event that one at an amtrak station in philadelphia. but i wanted to get you on this idea that the big lie is still so ever-present inour politics and someone should write a book about it. we saw mitt romney earlier in

the show get booed. we saw liz cheney under threat of losing her leadership position. how are you seeing the party navigate this? those who are holding out, those who are speaking out against the trumpism, how do they hold on to the power and relevance in a party that seems to be shifting away from them? >> jonathan, i think the point that we've reached a point where people who have last names like romney and cheney, people who have been the foundations of the republican party for so long, that they find themselves as outcasts. they find themselves being booed in they're own districted by so-called conservatives and the base, it shows how far the republican party has wandered into this wilderness and i think it's very popular that liz cheney loses her leadership spot. she's certainly not getting any support from the leadership above her in steve scalise and kevin mccarthy.

i think that signals for the next two to four years ago, this republican party will continue doubling down on trumpism and conspiratorial policies and politics that they've decided, made in conscience decision that they don't want to talk about policy, about infrastructure, day don't want to talk about the american people. they want to talk about hamburgers and dr. seuss and crazy conspiracy theories about what really happened on january 6th. they believe that's the only way, the only path to power, even though they've lost the house, the senate and the white house, they are just inviting this incredibly craven and dangerous and escalatingly dangerous brand of politics that is going to continue to have dire consequences in the long run, even if they have short-term gains. in the long run, they are putting themselves in a position where they will be in permanent minority status. this country is changing. the demographics are changing.

this will be a minority/majority country in a couple of decades. the rhetoric they are championing is putting them directly at odds where the demographics are going, and that's going to cost them dearly politically in the long run. >> well, we'll see. but for the democrats, it's, what are you willing to accept in order to try to strike a deal. and i'm not sure that these values that have been crossed can be accepted. kurt bar della and maya cummings, thank you for being on. we want to turn now to the 100 americans that are now fully vaccinated from the coronavirus as more and more of the country reopens. joining me now, dr. ashish shaw. i would like to talk about that, but i would like to start all the way in india and ask you if

the problems there could have an impact here. the crisis is worsening. it is horrific what is happening in india as it per tapes to the coronavirus. >> absolutely. good morning and thank you for having me on. india is in very, very bad shape. about 400,000 infections a day is what is being identified, but their testing infrastructure is such they're probably missing two-thirds to a quarter of cases. and many, many thousands of people are dying. their health care system is well beyond capacity. out of beds, out of oxygen, out of medicines. first and foremost, it's a humanitarian crisis, a humanitarian disaster that needs to be dealt with. secondly, we have seen emergence of a new variant. and that variant is a challenge. i think our vaccines will still hold up to it, but when you have a country the size of india, with the number of people potentially infected, you'll create an atmosphere for more

mutations, more variants. it's bad for the whole world when a single country as big as india starts having outbreaks like this. >> and so back here in the united states, we are looking at reopening, we are one third vaccinated. we deal with vaccine hesitancy, how vulnerable is the united states to a resurgence? >> i think, basically, it depends on what happens in the next few months. we're down to 2.5 million a day, which is down from the 3.5 million a day. the variants that exist right now, our vaccines should hold up and i think we'll do okay. but there's a bit of a challenge here. if we let this pandemic run out of control around the world, we will see more variants. . and i don't know that i feel that lucky that we're going to continue to have our vaccines

hold up. so for lots of reasons, we've got to have a global strategy. >> dr. ashish jha, thank you very much. really appreciate your coming on this morning. >> i was talking about people being tried in the press before, mika. and of course i forgot one of the greatest examples of it. it's early in the morning here. i wake up. what time do i usually wake up. about 5:55. >> if you're as old as me, that's not a early. talk about being tried in the press. >> yes. >> hillary clinton. >> oh, right. throw 2015 and 2016, tried in the press and then when the fbi decides not to bring charges, what do ado? they hold a press conference and indict her politically. >> it's definitely a consistent

problem that is invading our process. >> listen, you either indict somebody or you keep your mouth shut. you're not half pregnant and you're not half indicted. you either have what it takes that indict a politician or you close the file and let people know after a year and a half of weeks that you've got nothing and close up the file and tuck it away and walk off and be quiet. >> i remember that roving, karl rove is being indicted this friday. and through the trump administration, but again, we go back before the trump administration and hillary clinton, again the leaks coming out on that were unending.

it is a problem on both sides and hillary clinton, between that and comey's letter. vladimir putin didn't cost hillary clinton the election. it was all the leaks coming out of the fbi. it was jim comey's press conference, where he indicted her politically, when he couldn't indict her under the law, which was shameful. and the letter ten days beforehand, when there were a million different ways that letter could have been written. i'm tired of these prosecutors that are impacting american politics. do your job. >> on both sides of the aisle. still ahead on "morning joe," english in the gutter. then, now, and forever. columbia professor john mchoarder joins us with his new book, "nine nasty words." "morning joe" is coming right back. y words. "morning joe" is coming right back en when her bladder leaks. our softest, smoothest fabric keeping her comfortable,

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there are a lot of words you can say whenever you want. pneumonia. you can't yell it in a hospital. there are words you can say no problem. topography. no one has gone to jail for screaming that. there are some words you can go to jail for. there are some words that we just decided we will not say all the time. >> that was george carlin's famous seven words you can never say on television. no, we're not going to say them here. okay? >> okay. >> john mccourter says those words and more in his new book. in the book, he says we use expletives to, quote, level your revenge by saying something you have been told that you should

not. herein lies profanity's punch. we give them power by being free and easy with them. we give them power over us. they have no power. curses are words that have ceased being themselves having been vested with the power of transgression. john joins us now. he is a professor of linguistics and music history at columbia university. i am very scared as to how this segment is going to go with my husband's foul mouth. >> i feel like i've been -- >> you can't say anything. >> i grew up in a southern baptist household. yet, even from an early age, my mother was washing my mouth out with soap. >> enough. >> tell me, why did you write

the book? >> i wrote the book because i think everybody would like to know why these particular words are considered so dirty. i said hell when i was 5 and my mother washed my mouth out. what's with that? why are there words that exist and yet somehow they exist and we're not supposed to use them. there's something about that that's peculiar. i wrote the book -- behind me, there's the book. you can see it. you can fit it into -- >> very good. >> the thing about it is that it's not only damn and hell and words i will not say. if we have a conversation about curses, we have to talk about the n word, f word with sick letters that referred to gay men and some others because slurs are profanity. i take issue that certain word is profanity. it's salty. i'm a reserved, buttoned up

person. i use that f word 500 times a day. the slurs i do not use as all. i hope my children never do. it's a rich topic for our times. >> these words change, you say, from era to era. what is taboo in one era is not in another era. also, what words we do not say in the united states. i go to a soccer match in england and i hear them chanting it in the crowd going, my god, you guys say that over here? not only do they say it, 50,000 people chant it at the same time. >> it's the weirdest thing when we go over there and you hear that word. we can't say it at all. the word you are talking about, if we are talking about the one that begins with c, i'm sure i have never used it. i uttered in to talk about it. but i don't think i used it. it's utterly simple. you go there and it means buddy. it's used sometimes by women as

well as men. these things are random. they also, over there, not to dehumanize those people over there, they have a different relationship to a word that ends with t and ends with y. you can look at sitcoms in the '70s, people are saying, no, i'm just talking about my cat. you knew what they were pretending. nobody would have done that on "all in the family." some of these things are random. nevertheless, whatever the word is that has become potent and has gone to the right side of our brain from the left side and become an eruption rather than a reference, well, it's going to have a power. it's going to have an interesting history. somebody should write a book about the history of those words. somebody did. >> it's conveniently behind you. i can't believe you managed to sit down in the room that had all of those books behind there. you are right, that other word,

james bond used it freely, had a girlfriend, i think from kentucky, with it. my galore. let's go to eddie glaude, junior, who i'm sure has an illuminating question. >> congratulations with the book. you make a distinction between ordinary profanity and slur words. i'm thinking about the n word in particular, obviously, in some ways. because it comes so fraught with history. it has this interesting kind of cultural kind of usage and deployment. talk about how you manage and deal with this very vexing word and unsettling word and explosive word called the n word. >> there are the linguist me, who is a clinician, where i stand and look from a distance. then there is race commentator me whose views are often not the ones that are expected. people call me a contrarian. i have my views on the n word

there, too. this book is awkward, because i'm trying to be the clinician as opposed to the editorialist. there's a chapter on the n word. it's not longer than the other ones. what i write is that it is a slur and the most interesting thing is that it has been transformed into a way for black men and black people to say buddy. that's challenging enough. because a certain kind of person who doesn't want to understand says, how come they can use it and i can't, which i think is a little dumb, because the way black people use it, it's a different word. words can have different meanings. what gets awkward is that now, you can walk down the street and you can hear white guys calling each other that, because they listen to hip hop. they are calling each other buddy. what do you do with that? i discuss that in the book. some people may have read "the new york times" excerpts about the n word that ran this

weekend. the chapter is longer than this and gets into this usage. as we move along, i do not agree with people being fired from their jobs for referring to the n word. i don't like that. i don't talk about that thing. it's that book. i don't do that there. that book is supposed to be jolly. you are supposed to drink coca-cola and swim while reading this book. you want my opinion about the other things, you can find it in other places. >> we really -- we look forward to swimming, drinking coca-cola, reading your book and watching the boston red sox. jonathan lemire has a question for you right now. >> i'm glad this segment is notched on a seven minute delay. i would like to submit the y word referring to a baseball team in the bronx for your consideration if you do a sequel

to the book that is over your shoulder. talk about the evolution of these words. you mentioned how slurred have become seen as forbidden and it raises people's alarms when they hear them when perhaps in the past that was not the case. what further evolution do you see in terms of language if you had to -- don't name the specific -- we don't want to get in trouble. in terms of genres of words that say 50 years from now could be considered so dangerous, explicit and dirty? >> you know, there are times when i have to admit i lack imagination because the energy takes to write a book depletes you. it starts with religion. oh, my god is considered profanity. that faded. then the body. you are not supposed to say -- those are the dirty things. now i say those things around my kids all the time. it's become slurs. if we move on, i can say that the ones against groups are

going to become even more taboo. you can see that happening every ten years. our evolution with the word that begins with f that is hurled against gay men. that is more taboo over the past 20 years than before. eddie murphy in "raw" can use it in jolly fashion and barely anybody says a thing. no comedian in the mainstream now could get away with that. as we move along, i imagine we will get to class. in a way, i hope so. i think we need to be more careful about things like that. which aspect of being human is going to become profane in 500 years? i just am too rooted in my time to imagine. it will be something different from what we have now. it depends on what society is hung up about. you can be hung up about something for good reason. it used to be our big hangup was god. then it was the fact that we had private parts and we have sex. now our hangup is that we don't want to slur groups. that is an intellectual and

moral advance. we will advance to something else. >> the new book is "nine nasty words, english in the gutter, then now and forever." it's all tomorrow. >> i don't know if you know this. the books are behind him. >> yes, they are. thank you very much for being on this morning. okay. coming up, donald trump is still pushing the big lie telling his followers to watch the states he lost as if something will change. >> let's see what they find. i wouldn't be surprised if they found thousands and thousands and thousands of votes. we will watch it very closely. after that, you will watch pennsylvania and you will watch georgia. then you are going to watch michigan and wisconsin. you are watching new hampshire. they found a lot of votes up in new hampshire just now. good morning, welcome to "morning joe." it's monday, may 3rd, which means it's willie's birthday. happy birthday, willie.

with us we have white house reporter for the associated press jonathan lemire, professor at princeton university, eddie glaude, junior, founder of the bullwork and author of "how the right lost its mind" charlie sykes. we have a lot to talk about this morning with charlie. and ed luce is with us as well. donald trumps continues to perpetuate his big lie about election fraud. it's claiming it was stolen from him. video surfaced of him addressing a crowd at mar-a-lago in which he talks about the republican led recount that is underway in arizona. he lost the county by more than two points but told the crowd, watch arizona, some very interesting things are happening. take a look. >> let's see what they find. i wouldn't be surprised if they

found thousands and thousands and thousands of votes. we are going to watch it very closely. after that, you well watch pennsylvania and you will watch georgia. then you are going to watch michigan and wisconsin. you are watching new hampshire. they found a lot of votes up in new hampshire just now. >> nope, nope, nope. none of those states are in dispute. while it's kind of pitiful to see him on patios at mar-a-lago just looping on all of this, there is a strain of this that is dangerously still alive, joe. >> dangerously still alive. charlie sykes, you look at that video, and it looks -- it's pathetic and sad that a former president is going in the middle of a reception and talking to random people. >> meandering around. >> lying to them and lying to them based on what federal judges that he appointed said

was actually the reality. i read a "washington post" article this morning where somebody said, of course we believe him, because donald trump is always right. we will get to what's happening with mitt romney later, to what's happening with the texas runoff a little bit later. in every case, this party is sad and pathetic and just as stupid as he looks, the truth is, there is an entire nation of republicans that are blindly following this corrupt just terrible man. >> you know, it was pitiful, it was pathetic and ludicrous. i can't help thinking, look at that video and imagine that manages of people, including the leadership of the republican party look at him and go, yes, that's our leader, that is our future, this is the man we want to put back in the oval office. it is this bizarre moment where the republican party looks at

that picture and says, yeah, this is our guy. anybody that breaks with him, whether mitt romney or liz cheney, we have to throw them out. believing this lie has become a litmus test in the republican party. it is now required that you do this. the republican party is in the process of purging people that are willing to challenge the big lie and that are telling the truth about what happened. it's an extraordinary moment, joe. i say that having lived through the last five years of watching the derangement of the republican party. and now to watch what appears to be the acceleration of the derangement of the republican party. >> you know, charlie, we focus an awful lot, as we should, on the kevin mccarthys and others who know that donald trump is a joke and who will tell anybody that will listen to them off the record that they know that donald trump is a joke, but they

have no choice. what are they going to do if they want to be speaker, if they want to win their election, they have to follow donald trump. what about the people we have known through the years, the rank and file people, friends, family members, party members, officials, people that helped get me elected who claimed at one time to be conservatives who claim to believe the same thing you and i believe in, in small government? i feel like now is a great time to ask the question, what the hell has happened to them? when do they -- is it the nazi flag? when they carry the flag of the third reich around, do they go, you know if you look at the flag closely, it does have a snappy design and nice colors. at what point do they give up the ghost on this guy? we can go down the laundry list of things he has done. we can talk about january 6th.

we can talk about the fact he was pressuring his attorney general to arrest like a fascist thug, to arrest his political opponent and their family two weeks before the election. we can go down the laundry list of things he has done to show he is a fascist. yet, they keep following him. >> you know, the response would be, what about antifa, what about black lives matter. this is internalized on the right. the willingness to look the other way. it's also interesting watching how with donald trump down there in mar-a-lago on the patio, the thought leadership -- there isn't any thought leadership at all on the right -- it shifted to tucker carlson, would don't pretend any longer not to be pushing white nationalist sorts of narratives. this is the really ugly moment when you have 70% of republicans

believe the election was stolen. there's no indication that's going to change. i would like to say to you, joe, that if there was really stronger leadership among the people that you have described, if more people spoke out about this that maybe there would be some moment of recognition, but we have seen this again and again and again where the rationalization has just become the norm now on the republican side. yes, it is getting worse. my concern is that as these ideas become normalized, as the republican -- as the right slugs off accusation of white nationalism and fashionism that our politics is going to be changing in extraordinarily ugly ways. >> yeah. i mean, there have been times in the past few weeks where media

outlets, all of them, have had on -- i'm talking about news media outlets have had on republicans who support the big lie and have tiptoed around it because they are so grateful to have a republican on to talk about other things. i'm sorry, i think that's wrong. the press needs to ask the question. if they can't come on to have the question asked -- it's not a question being asked for democrats. it's a question being asked for our democracy. do you stand on the side of our democracy? if they can't come on a news program, whether it's a sunday show or "morning joe" or anywhere to talk about that, i really -- i don't know how you tiptoe around something like this. look what happened to republican senator mitt romney of utah who was booed at a gop -- a republican convention in his own state on saturday.

>> i wasn't a fan of our last president's character issues. [ booing ] aren't you embarrassed? >> senator romney was the only republican who voted to convict trump in both of his impeachment trials. despite the reaction saturday, a vote to censure romney failed shortly after that speech. joe, i mean, mitt romney was dealing with it well enough, as best as he could. these people are leering and booing at is what should be disturbing all americans. >> well, he asked the right question. aren't you embarrassed?

there's a guy whose father was republican governor. there's a guy who was a senator. there's a guy who was the republican nominee in 2012. i remember a lot of those same people booing those type of people eviscerated me in 2012 whenever i criticized mitt romney's campaign style and talked about how he was campaigning poorly and was going to probably lose the 2012 election, it was some of the most hateful scenes i have seen. they are tribal -- they are a tribe. now they are turning on mitt romney because he has done the right thing. he actually voted to impeach a guy who led an insurrection. he asks the right question. aren't you embarrassed? you know, maybe 25 years ago

when i watched this tape i would have felt bad for mitt romney. i know mitt romney. he doesn't care. >> he doesn't need to be doing this. >> he has a wife who loves him. he is going home to children who -- and grandchildren would love and respect him. he knows who he is. when they boo, they don't boo -- they don't reveal the character of mitt romney. they reveal the character of themselves. you hear that and hear people acting that way. the question from anybody that's raised in a half decent family is, what would these people's mom and dad think of them? were they not raised better than that? if they have faith in god, i'm sure most of there people would claim to be christians, does jesus not teach them better than to act that way? to be that rude to a man for

doing something that they know they should all do. and that is, condemn what's going on over the past four or five years. mitt romney, you watch this tape -- don't feel sorry for mitt. mitt is fine. mitt knows who he is. the problem, eddie glaude, is that those people booing in the audience and being extraordinarily disrespectful to a man who has given his public life to the republican party, these are the same people that booed a dying john mccain. these are the same people who booed a dying john mccain. again, i ask the question, would there parents be proud of them? are there parents proud of them? my parents were very conservative. oh, my god, if i acted that way

in public, was that disrespectful to a man or woman who dedicated their lives to public service, going home to florida, that would be an ugly scene when i walked through that door. my grandmom, i -- she was still alive, she would take out a switch. the lack of basic values and decency is really sad and shocking considering that this is my tribe that is behaving this way. and there happens to be the added element of it being dangerous, not only for the party but dangerous for this republic when you look around and see that they are -- they

are liking the man who lacks decency. >> that's an extraordinary point. the question, aren't you embarrassed, presupposes the people who are booing have the capacity to be shamed. one of the interesting things about our contemporary political moment is the absence of shame. people are doing things. they tell lies, gaslight. they hold one position and then another position the next minute. the absence of shame has a direct impact, i believe, on the functioning of our democracy. in so many ways, donald trump is an avatar of that. he has no sense of shame. he is never embarrassed by his behavior. we can talk about trump, we can talk about his impact on the republican party. but the broader question is, what are the impacts on our

democracy? how is he in some ways extending what he has done since his campaign, since his presidency, and that is undermine the trust in our democratic process. he is still doing it. of course, with no shame. >> still ahead, more on donald trump's transition from the white house podium to a lounge act at mar-a-lago. somehow, he has taken the republican party along with him. you are watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ooh, have yd on the bright side? discover never holds you responsible for unauthorized purchases on your card. (giggling) that's my turtle. fraud protection. discover. something brighter. how great is it that we get to tell everybody how liberty mutual customizes your car insurance (giggling) that's my turtle. so you only pay for what you need? i mean it... uh-oh, sorry... oh... what? i'm an emu! no, buddy! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪ i'm ordering some burritos!

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jonathan lemire, we don't know what's going to happen in 2022, because the republicans should be lined up to have a good run at it, especially in the house. if they win it will be because of tactics, not an overarching strategy. tactics can help them survive the next two to four years. look at the arc of history here, and you see this political party

falling in on itself like the whigs did, like the no nothings did. you start looking at states like georgia. you look at states like arizona. they are about to overreach in arizona and do something extraordinarily stupid in arizona after three recounts, after one court after another said that arizona was a clean recount. they're going to upset more suburban voters. take georgia, where atlanta is too big to be overrun by trump supporters in rural areas, arizona is the same with phoenix being too large, where you have educated voters and suburban voters are former republicans to be overrun by trump supporters out in the country who may just not follow the truth or may just look at facebook all day. then we're going to be adding north carolina to that list.

that was close. four years from now with more educated people coming into north carolina, look at the patterns there, you are going to have a republican party that is going to start with phoenix -- or with arizona, with georgia, with north carolina out of their columns. makes it almost impossible for these people to win. and yet, instead of trying to figure out -- reach out to the suburban voters of atlanta, suburban voters of phoenix, those suburban voters and intelligent voters in the research triangle in north carolina, they are going the other direction. the self-infliction of wounds, it just continues. were i a republican, i would say, this is dangerous, wake up. but they aren't waking up from this trump nightmare that they put themselves in. >> such a nightmare. >> they are not.

this is the president -- former president still has a stranglehold on the party, joe. it does seem like there may be a short-term window for success. long-term, very perilous. they think some of the states that trump put into their column in 2016 and biden only won narrowly, that michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania trio, maybe though are places the republican party can grow in the future it would be more than offset if that -- if they lose georgia, arizona, north carolina and more go out of their column forever. they are though. it's clear, not willing to break from his spell. they are doubling down on this big lie about election fraud. only cozying themselves up further to him. we are seeing mitt romney get booed. liz cheney have her leadership

threatened. a clear signal, if you are not fully on board, there's not a place for you in what is now the mainstream of the republican party, which is the trumpist part of the republican party that is still shaping his image whether or not he runs in 2024 or he doesn't. the chatter among people close to him is that he probably won't. no decision has been made. they are talking about him being on the road before too long, holding rallies perhaps or some sort of speaking engagements over the summer. the white house and democrats are looking at this. they know history shows that the party that's not in power does well in the midterms. they are betting this could be an exception, because they feel like the voting public will be turned off by the republicans' loyalty to the big lie. they believe biden will be successful with the programs, delivering things into the hands and pockets of americans that they want. and thinking that they will have an economic recovery. a booming economy, which will bode well.

joe, i will close with a final point. i'm struck by the logistics of the setup at mar-a-lago. there's a microphone there every night for the president to wander out. there's a house band that is there every night. maybe two shows an evening, 5:00 and 9:00, sandwiched around dinner. could ronald reagan win a primary in today's republican party. charlie sykes has thoughts on the current incarnation of the gop next on "morning joe." ornin" ♪ (ac/dc: back in black) ♪ ♪ ♪ the bowls are back. applebee's irresist-a-bowls all just $8.99. [♪♪] when you have diabetes,

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charlie, look at what happened in utah. look at texas with the primary where a conservative marine who actually talked like republicans used to talk before donald trump became president ended up with 3% of the vote. you look at what is happening in wyoming where liz cheney's political future is in danger. there really are few good signs. it leads me wonder, could a guy that you saw and i saw from the time he was 25 growing up in public service, who eventually became speaker of the house, paul ryan -- could paul ryan be speaker of the house for this republican party?

>> no. no chance. in fact, ronald reagan couldn't win a primary in the republican party these days. you know what's extraordinary about the liz cheney and mitt romney stories is look at their voting records. liz cheney is -- she's not like us. she's not a squishy rhino. she has a plus 95% rating, i think, from conservative groups. she was a trump loyalist up until january 6th. mitt romney is not voting for the biden agenda. my point is here that these are republicans that are very conservative, have been very consistent, and yet because of the one issue, the lack of loyalty -- blind loyalty to donald trump, they are being cast out. so there is no other litmus test. it does not matter whether you have been a fiscal conservative, whether you have voted down the line with the republican party, this is the only thing that

counts right now, whether you will buy the big lie, whether you will defend donald trump, whether you will look the other way for january 6th. i don't see any indication that that's changing any time soon. >> you know, my squishy former republican friend, i had a 95% lifetime acu rating. the other 5%, they just scored them wrong. it has been -- it's fascinating when i have people come up to me in the airport and say, i liked you when you used to be a conservative. tell me ideologically, other than not supporting donald trump, name an issue i have changed on. they can't. it's not about ideology. it's not about ideas. it's not about the things that have shaped republican debates and have shaped conservative debates and have shaped debates in america over the past 240

years. it's nothing but tribalism and this personality cult. charlie, our party has had a lot of flaws. could you imagine we would get to this point where ideology didn't matter and 95% lifetime rating didn't matter. liz cheney's 95% acu rating didn't matter. it's all whether you support and are a member of this personality cult or not. >> this personality cult, yes. it's extraordinary. having lived through it, it's amazing watching the party become -- you and i both remember when we thought the -- the republicans were the party of ideas. forget that. it's a cult of personality. a cult of this personality. that guy on the porch at mar-a-lago with the open mike, that's the personality cult that this party has chosen. they have rejected all of these other issues, all of the other

leaders have been cast out. that's really extraordinary. i agree with jonathan lemire that there's a possibility of short-term victory, but long-term it's hard to imagine this is sustainable. coming up, annette gordon joins with her new book, how events from the 19th century are tied firmly in today's america. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ng joe" is back in a moment

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slavery was a bad thing. >> thank you for that. i'm just saying, maybe it's healthier to put all this negativity behind you. your people, well, they have been free for a long time. >> a long time. >> really? >> yeah. >> you think we're free? >> your tone makes me feel this

is a trick question. >> things just didn't get better on june 20th. even when we weren't free, we weren't free. >> free, free, free. >> we are free. >> what happens now? >> we're free. >> okay. but what does that mean? >> a scene from the abc show "blackish" with a reference to juneteenth. joining us now annette gordon-reed. her new book is entitled "on juneteenth." >> thank you for being here. i've been excited about this book for some time. it's personal to you for so many reasons. there's a whole lot of texas in this book. tell us why you wrote about your

home state so much, focused on it so much here. >> well, my editor has been after me for a number of years to write about texas, because i talk about texas a lot. i spent my life writing about virginia, jefferson and so forth. i have a family, too. i have a family history. we decided i would do something. a small book that talked about what the holiday meant to me but at the same time giving me an opportunity to talk about the history of texas through my family story. we decided to do it. >> one thing that i learned from your book that really was a stark reminder of how long it took for emancipation to come to texas was the fact that it was another two years after lincoln's emancipation

proclamation where any land the north took over immediately, at least in theory, became free, that didn't happen in your home state for another two years. >> well, the army of the trans-mississippi kept fighting. they finally -- they won the last battle. but they realized everything had fallen apart. they surrendered. that gave gordon granger -- major general gordon granger. he was sent to galveston to announce slavery was over in texas. that was a momentous occasion, but it was also just the beginning of something. as that excerpt suggests, the question was, what happens after that? we have the hindsight to know what happened. but the people at the time were jubilant that this was over, the institution of legalized slavery was over for them in texas.

>> it was first celebrated in 1866. talk about the development of that date. >> well, initially, people had spontaneous shows of celebration that were immediately tamped down. we have stories about people who were celebrating in 1865 and they were whipped because of that. there was a backlash against these celebrations. then the freedman's bureau, once it was established, used these kinds of celebrations to encourage people to come to learn to read and to talk to them about the potential for voting rights and so forth. it became an educating thing. it was associated with church. i think that a lot of times they had them in churches to -- they thought it might stave off violence, people might not attack them there. that didn't necessarily work all the time. it was a gradual thing where people celebrated it as

emancipation day. it wasn't called juneteenth from the beginning. that grew over time and remained something that was important to texans. a group of black men in houston bought some land in the 1870s to turn into a park specifically for the celebration, emancipation park, that is still in houston today. >> eddie glaude, junior, has the next question. professor? >> how are you doing? >> congratulations on this one. good morning. >> good morning. >> it's always important to talk about this alternative calendar, from january 1st and the abolition of the slave trade as an important day in african-american history to august and the abolition and then juneteenth. talk about what this alternative calendar suggests about the nature of citizenship. the second -- of black citizenship, that is. the second part of the question

is, how might you think about the metaphor of the time lag for this conception of freedom over the course of american history and the way in which we think about black freedom in this country? i hope that makes sense. >> it does make sense. the question of the different dates that you might use to celebrate the end of slavery, whether it's december 1865 with the final ratification of the 13th amendment, legally end slavery everywhere, juneteenth is the end of the sort of military -- the organized military -- recognizes the organized military and the confederacy, they surrendered before then, but this was the result of that, they could go into this large state and proclaim freedom, gordon granger could do that. it suggests that it's a process. citizenship has been a process for african-americans from the very beginning from being

considered mere enslaved people outside of civic life to reallyid -- legalized citizenship. there's no way to celebrate it, there's just different moments. the second part of your question, i'm sorry. >> yeah. it's this -- the notion of this time lag that -- >> yes. >> the idea of freedom comes late. how do you think about that? >> well, it ties into the first question that it's not over yet. my father, who could be quite sardonic when we would celebrate juneteenth would say the slaves haven't been freed yet. he understood that legalized freedom of slavery was over, but he meant there were many things to do and that the problem of white supremacy that was exacerbated and got baked into things during slavery was still

something you had to combat. it's not over. it was just a process. we have been struggling since that time period to realize the hopes that the people at that time had for this day. i look at the day and i think, well, i know what's going to happen. i know there's going to be violence, there's going to be jim crow, there's going to be lynching. there will be civil rights movement. all those things to combat that. at the time, this was a moment of hope. commemorating this day for me is about commemorating the hope of people who had been treated as chattel and who now thought they were going to begin the journey. i think they knew that it wasn't going to be immediate. they knew that legalized slavery, being bought and sold, the separation from families, all those kinds of things, that's what they hoped would be over immediately. they knew that they -- there would be a long road ahead of them.

it has been. >> just a quick follow-up. juneteenth is broadly celebrated. i grew up in miss. we didn't celebrate but we knew about it. what do you think will be the impact or how should we read your book against the backdrop of the debates around whether or not america is still racist or the like? it's an interesting kind of convergence to tell your story and for it to enter into this political moment where you have this broad set of considerations about whether or not the country is still racist. how would you think about the book landing in this particular moment at this particular time? >> well, it's a time to reflect on why we are where we are now. to have people think about the fact -- as i suggested before, slavery was an economic system, a labor system.

but it was a cultural system as well. it was a system that put in place an idea. i guess the idea was there. baked into american society an idea about white supremacy. it's naive, i would think, to believe that you could rid the country of that in a short amount of time. the book is a -- i go through history and i talk not just about those times but i talk about being a 6-year-old and integrating our schools in my hometown, that i was there continuing this mission that was started back in 1865, back before then, but certainly connecting it to texas, this idea of realizing a place when texans and black and white could live in the state on the basis of equality. we are still on this march.

i think the book is a time to reflect upon that. it's not just a triumphant thing. it was never meant to be a triumphant thing. it's an educating thing to think about where we are and where we want to go in the future. we're not so far away from this. this is the thing that's amazing about it. >> you know, annette, it's interesting, you talk about being 6 and the year that schools were integrated in texas. i have been reading an awful lot about abraham lincoln. there's a collection of stories called "stories we tell ourselves so we can go to sleep at night." >> yeah. >> we love to talk about abraham lincoln freed the slaves. that statement, while true, glosses over so much. i have been really diving into lincoln's history, '30s, '40s, and talking about colonization.

i look back and what teachers gave us, examples of the friendships with black kids, white kids. i didn't even think anything of it because that's what school was to me. then i look over the 30 or 40 years and i think about, like you said, there's so many ups and downs, that we are still just like lincoln from the '30s through 1865, we are still on our journey. for every two steps forward, it seems we take one back. >> yeah. it's a tough thing. it's a question of who the people are. lincoln certainly struggled with that, the idea that blacks and whites -- a question whether blacks and whites could live in

the society with some degree of harmony. he and others -- the person i write about, jefferson, didn't think that, that it was possible, that there would always be conflict. you couldn't have first class and second class citizenship. so the idea was that black people should be someplace where they could it wasn't going to happen here. king and other people have sort of given us the idea that's not true. african-americans have been here for centuries and helped build this country. it is our country. james baldwin said, if the american negro is not american, there are no americans. that kind of idea is what keeps african-americans, that kept these people, people in galveston, soldiers sort of fanned out and sent the news there, the hope that one day the declaration, the ideals of the declaration would be realized. we're still working on that. it's a work in progress.

no one should think this is all over now because the law changed. law reflects society at one level but not what's going on everywhere. we still have to struggle. >> a work in progress. finally, i want to end where we began and that is with your beloved state of texas. i love in fact when other people started celebrating juneteenth, you felt this twinge of possessiveness and were almost ireighted by the fact -- wait, that's texas' holiday! what are you people doing? but it shows the great -- >> we like to think of ourselves as special! we like to think we're special, but i've gotten over that now. i'm ready for everybody to celebrate. >> there you go. >> fantastic. >> today was the first day of annette's week-long "morning joe" residency. she will be with us every morning this week as we dig deeper into the themes of on "on

juneteenth." annette gordon-reed, thank you. we will see you tomorrow. up next -- a massachusetts town keeps its outdoor mask mandate, despite the state lifting those restrictions. we'll talk about that. and as we go to break, this weekend marked another milestone for my mother, artist and sculpture emily bennish brzezinski. friends of our family and many viewers of the show know just how incredible her artistic vision is, and it's huge, as you can see. her sculptures are towering, literally. hacked and carved by hand with ax, chisel and chainsaw. enormous shapes and secrets revealed. enormous investment of all aspects of her life. the revving of my mom's chain sao was the soundtrack of any

childhood. all raising three children and being the partner to my father, that chainsaw did for her trees what my mom did for each off us, build the story, the confidence and the strength and bring out the beauty and value for all of the world to see. >> and with that as the backdrop, my brothers ian and mark joined me for a special event ftz acclaimed projects for the arts which assumed the mantel with my mother's legacy, shepherding the next work of her creative vision. and we will be watching along, and it is going to be a joy. we thank mpa for this. you can learn much more at mpaart.org. we will be right back with much more "morning joe." . >> it speaks to her art to not only be preserved but inspire people to become interested in

arts, maybe become artists. >> this is probably one of the most meaningful thins we'll do together as a family. and i think that dad would be so proud of us right now. and this is exactly what he would want. so you only pay for what you need. thank you! hey, hey, no, no limu, no limu! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ biden: when i think about climate change,

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this past friday massachusetts joined the growing number of states relaxing its outdoor mask mandates. but one town just outside of boston is keeping its outdoor mask mandate. officials for brookline, massachusetts, said the community won't relax the requirement to wear masks outside, quote, out of an abundance of caution and in our residents' best interests. with 100 million americans now fully vaccinated, there are growing questions over whether some towns and cities are being too cautious in reopening and getting back to normal, whatever normal looks like now. a few weeks ago the "morning

joe" field team took that question to officials in boston, and miami. ♪♪ >> we're in the phase of reopening that we're in and we accept that. there's a lot dependent on variants. it's been hard. we're not operating, really. i'm still pretty proud to be from this area, from an area that's so science focused. it's just a much quieter city than it used to be. ♪♪ >> we have seen an influx of people from california and new york city, boston and all of the major cities. look, miami's always been a party town. we do see people want to get out, they want to have a good

time, they want to go back to some time of normalcy as they're used to and i think we're providing that. >> we're hopeful that if we can get 80% to 90% of our population vaccinated, we can think about that time to be together without getting infected. of course, we are concerned about variants. if we stop being safe and variants spread, vaccines may start working. s vaccination does come with benefits. that means you can see other people who are vaccinated. that means you are can see loved ones who are low risk. we need to get people vaccinated so they can also have those luxuries. in the meantime when half the people are vaccinated and half aren't, protections need to stay in place. the variants will continue until we get to herd immunity. >> we have some weekends that get quite crowded. we do require masks. very had not had serious enforcement issues. we had many locals, not so many tourists, some people at miami beach who come on vacation and think they're taking a break from the mask as well.

some people you see in the media on miami beach, some people without masks and not behaving responsibly, you're talking about a very small geographic area. >> the universities in boston from cambria university came together and figured this out. it shows the science bringing together tz colleagues in these fields to make the decisions we've got to make. we have all of the state and city constraints we have to jad adhere to and they've been conservative. and our residents have been compliant and done really well. we're almost there. the more people get vaccinated, the more it did lie out. >> we saw the cases kick out but it wasn't as big because of the vaccinations. probably because some people had it and survived it and had natural immunizations. we're hoping once the spring break crowd leaves, which they pretty much left, we start to see things settle down and go back to the continue decline we saw before. part of the challenge now is

continuing some people to get vaccinated. i have always been a proponent of masks in public. people are wearing the masks voluntarily and using their common sense and judgment but socialization is part of who we are as a community so we're hoping we can return back to normal, pre-covid levels, soon. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks for watching. hi, there, i'm stephanie ruhle, live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it's monday, may 3rd, let's get smarter w his first 100 days behind him, president biden kicking off a make-or-break month for his sweeping economic plans trying to give negotiations with republicans some time to work but making it very clear, those talks will no go on forever. as we speak, president biden leaving the white house, headed to virginia to pitch his agenda again, his third stop in the

last five