steadfast in the commitment to reach out to the republicans in congress and to pass legislation with broad support from democrats and republicans all across the country but his efforts have been met with an increasingly radicalized and fact immune republican party wanting to repel the republicans with the audacity to speak the truth about the disgraced ex-president. people like romney, cheney and the mccain family roared back into the news this weekend as exhibits a, b and c of an extreme new makeup of the modern gop intent on pushing them aside in exchange for a post-fact, pro-voter suppression and mitt romney booed in utah. watch. >> now you know me as a person who -- who says what he thinks and i don't hide the fact that i

wasn't a fan of the last president's character issues. i'm also -- aren't you embarrassed? >> cindy mccain wife of the late john mccain this weekend took on the party her husband once led as its standard bearer in 2008 by denoinsing the fake add it in arizona as a dangerous stunt. >> listen. the whole thing is ludicrous. quite frankly. this comes from a state party in arizona that refused to be audited themselves so, you know, it's -- the election is over. biden won. i know many of them don't like the outcome but elections have consequences and so this does not surprise me.

things are just aloof and crazy out there right now with regards to the election. >> and liz cheney is reportedly in danger today of losing the leadership post in the house republican caucus for her audacity to speak the truth about donald trump's role in inciting the insurrection. politico is reporting quote there is a coordinated effort by kevin mccarthy to box her out. the republican leader is signaling that if anyone wants to try to force another vote to ois her from the post he's not planning to defend her anymore. to which liz cheney has decidedly said game on tweeting this today. quote the 2020 presidential election was not stolen. anyone who claims it was is spriding the big lie. turning their back on the rule of law and poisoning our democratic system. and even those who once sought to separate themselves at least momentarily from trump's big lie after election day and throughout the insurrection are

now going out of their way to whitewash the ex-president's legacy. >> overall how do you grade trump as president? >> oh, listen. overall i give the president a "a." you know? but the fact of the matter is that there were some things that happened specifically at the end of the presidency that i think had some things that clouded his accomplishments. >> we wonder what grade he gives the presidents that don't incite insurrections. the radicalization of the gop as the president biden agenda soars in popularity where we start this hour. ashley parker, "the washington post" white house bureau chief is here. also joining us is charlie sykes and former missouri senator claire mccaskill. all three are msnbc contributors. ashley, as usual, you have the definitive reporting on this topic. republicans, becomes defining loyalty test six months after

trump lost to biden rejection of the 2020 election results dubbed the big lie by many democrats has increasingly become an unofficial litmus test for acceptance in the republican party. the issue could reverberate and trump slamming republicans who did not resist the election result just for republicans fealty to the falsehood could pull the party further to the right and for democrats a continued existence of the claim threatens to undermine biden's agenda. it is brilliant reporting. is it really a pull to the right or is it a pull down to this post-fact republican party? >> what's been fascinating to watch and what we tried to document in that story was how the fringe, what we would consider the fringe and what republicans generally consider the fringe of the party, so on

the outside has sort of eaten the party from the outside in and now is its beating heart so you have the debates not just in washington where you have lawmakers trying to whitewash what actually happened on january 6 and offer revisionist history, seeing the fight play out publicly in house republican leadership but all across the country in ways that are less noticed. right? you have local elected officials, party, state party executive directors who are being purged and cast out of their party for the sin of basically saying, you know what? the election was valid and while i don't like it i accept joe biden as my president. and that is what's so striking that it's nationwide and just about every single level of the republican party. >> charlie, ashley has just put it perfectly.

there's a purge under way for any republican who dares to utter the truth. as a result of that purge and we should call it what it is, a purge of republicans that tell the truth about donald trump losing in a massive way in november, here is the ad that has just been immediate to help liz cheney who's really at risk now of losing her leadership position. let's watch. >> after a capitol was attacked, our representatives in congress were threatened ian a police officer was killed, representative cheney had a choice. she could look the other way and pretend it didn't happen or she could stand up and say this can never happen again. thank you, representative cheney, for upholding your oath to the constitution and for protecting our country. >> so charlie, liz cheney has few defenders in her caucus but there's one who -- one of the fellow ten votes to impeach

trump said this. if a prerequisite for leading the conference is lying to the voters then liz is not the best fit? that's anthony gonzalez of ohio who also voted to impeach trump. liz isn't going to lie to people. liz is going to say what she believes. she is going to stand on principle and that's distracting for folks she is not the best fit. i wish that weren't the case. that's where they are. if you tell the truth you're not a good fit. >> yeah, no. this is a peert that marjorie taylor greene and matt gaetz are in good stead. we talk about profiles in courage. she is a remarkable woman. keep coming to mind the comment by margaret thatcher, the lady is not for turning and the contrast between cheney and the republican caucus is so dramatic these days and that statement that she issued today was really interesting because she was also pushing back on trump issuing a

statement saying he is going to call the entire election the big lie and she is saying, no, i'm not going along with that. given the threat to her leadership what they really want her to do is be silent. they want her to shut up. they want her to stop talking about this. they want her -- obviously because she could save her career going along with the lie but just simply keeping her mouth shut looking the other way might be sufficient and she won't do it and this really is an interesting counter indicator to what's happening in the republican party where all the incentives now to go with the ludicrous conspiracy theories about the election and by the way we haven't talked about it yet but that video of donald trump coming out on the porch at mar-a-lago for open mic night and talking about the arizona recount and how -- all these votes, honestly how do republicans look at? even after four years and not

go, you know, we got to be moving on from this guy? how do you look and say this is the leader? we believe him and trust him and follow him. let's make him president gone. i really did think that mitt romney asked the most appropriate question when he said, aren't you embarrassed? obviously they're beyond shame. they have no shame but at least be embarrassed how ridiculous this has become but it's also dangerous, as well. >> charlie, i want to follow up with you. it is striking in one weekend the three former names that used to define and i spoiz this is why donald trump won, right? cheney obviously from the occupant of the white house in 2000 and 2004, mccain was the party standard bearer why '08. romney in '12. it is not that they should have governed the party forever but happening in an accelerated pace

not only do they not have standing in the party they get booed. liz chiny is about to be evicted from the leadership post. cindy mccain so out of state with what her state party is doing. >> it all comes down to one thing, the loyalty to donald trump and the willingness to go along with his big lie about the election. liz cheney is a rock solid conservative. she has a plus 95% rating from conservative groups. mitt romney, former standard bearer of his party. look. these would be in good stead with republican party if they did not -- the qanon conspiracy theory. instead they're being cast out. this is nothing to do ideology, nothing to do with principles or issues. it all comes down to this question of their loyalty to donald trump. >> claire mccaskill, the danger to the country isn't that the republican party has lost the way why the danger to the

country is that the litmus test that ashley writes about intersects with the domestic threat warning. it is in line with the ideology of those who represent the gravest threat to the homeland so it is not just a cult around donald trump. it is around the lie that must be told so that he doesn't look like the loser he is. and then that lie also intersoekts with the same ideology that threatens the homeland. >> when you allow an extreme fringe to take over your party, and emboldened by the fact that they're supposed to lie, it is really not a good prescription for power going forward. it may feel good today for them to reject liz cheney and her telling the truth of what happened on january 6 and what really happened on the first tuesday in november, but you

know, i'm trying to think what mitt romney must feel like coming back to the senate after that. you know, when you come back to the senate after you've had a break and they're on break this week so when he comes back next week and walks into a committee room or walks on the floor and all of the republican colleagues, you know, roger wicker and jim langford, the people who like to give speeches of character and integrity, what do they say to him? what do they say to him? do they say, mitt, we are sorry, but there's nothing we can do? why can't all of them give a speech on the floor saying stop it? stop booing someone who is just telling the truth. what is really the failure of the republican party right now are the elected officials that have allowed the extreme fringe to become as ashley said the beating heart of the republican party.

>> we should name names, claire. mitch mcconnell gave a speech calling for donald trump to be criminally prosecuted after voting to acquit him for inciting an insurrection that he suggested he believed he had done suggesting criminal prosecution so i mean, just say more. what is it like? where they talk out of both sides of their mouth save for romney and cheney. >> chris christie should lead a choir of all the people talking out of both sides of their mouth. i'm dizzy between him and nikki haley and can't decide what the hell they're talking about on any given day but think about this toad kevin mccarthy. he said that he knew that donald trump was refusing to call on his supporters to stand down on that day. he knew what -- he knows what donald trump did that day? he knows that donald trump lost

this election. how hollowed out must you be that you're willing to do what he's doing to try to get power? it is really a sad and pathetic excuse for a leader. >> claire, you calling him a toad is the best thing that's happened since i've been on tv in a very long time. don't they all know kept dhart qua phenomenon lady that it's all a lie? >> oh yeah, yeah. they all know especially if you look at the senators that -- by the way, you know what's really interesting here politically? joe biden, we can talk about this later in the hour but joe biden understands if he keeps the support of the democratic party and the independents and 25% of the republicans that still have a brain he's got a governing majority and the democrats have a governing majority for a long time so this is not a good plan going forward and it ice amazing to me that

more republican senators haven't figured that out. >> ashley, that brings us back to the biden white house. i'd say the biggest political accomplishment not legislative but they would say it was the relief package they passed and the approval ratings for the ones they hope to yet pass but the political accomplishment was defining bipartisanship to mean that which is supported by democrats and the republicans in the country. speaking of boxing out, thif boxed out congressional republicans from the conversation about the agenda. and i wonder if they are content to have things stay this way until republicans come to the table. >> so i will say they have done a very good job, especially in the campaign and this was the blueprint they brought with them into the white house of not elevating the conspiracy theories, the fringe of the republican party, the gratuitous attacks in another world they

would have been forced to answer to every day what the then president trump tweeted about and that's what they hope to bring going forward. the actual bipartisanship is interesting because they absolutely have redefined or tried with voters in the country and a quote/unquote bipartisan bill is not a single republican vote and argue can be bipartisan. but what is interesting is especially on something like infrastructure they are working in reaching across the aisle to have these conversations with republican members to consider republican plans. they say publicly all the time one big doimpbs we have is how to pay for the plan. if you have a better idea to pay for it and get the team on board tell us what that plan is and working on a parallel track so there's a traditional bipartisan track and the separate track where they're willing if they can go ahead and yet again pass

another major trillion-dollar bill with no republican support. >> charlie, i think we know that if they work with a few republicans they would be the outliers and like romney and cheney are in terms of the big lie. i want to turn to the conception of consequences because the conversations can make me feel despair but a break on the lie is from dominion, the voting equipment company that sued for i think close to $2 billion. one of the people, a news organizations they sued is news max and news max clarified the lies. news max is the trumpiest of all the trump news organizations. let's road from "the washington post" reporting on news max's efforts the not be sued for $2 billion. in a statement friday newsmax said it wanted to clarify its

coverage of comin i don't know filing a lawsuit against the right wing network in december. after the election misinformation about the supposed role in manipulating the vote proliferated on right wing sites. coomer said he was forced into hiding after receiving death threats from trump supporters who believed the false assertion that the election was stolen and that he played a role. on friday newsmax said there was no evidence that such allegations were true. you can't put the tooth paste back in the tube for those officers who were mutilated by trump supporters at the insurrection. you can't unwind the millions of voters who believe the big lie. but dominion has succeeded where no one else has in eliciting retractions from the trumpiest of right wing sites. it is a start. >> it is a start. i hope that we see more of this.

i don't want to add to the despair though but i'm not totally convinced that this strategy on the right won't work. when you see a new poll out that 70% of republicans don't think that joe biden won this election, a lot of these republicans we were asking before do they believe that the election was stolen? no, they don't believe it but they're -- the base does believe it. ashley's story in "the washington post" starts with this very, very scary quote from a conservative activist who says, i don't want to steal your thunder, but donald trump never been wrong and right about everything and this is what the republican party decided to deal with and rather than push back with leadership ian say, no, look. this is not true. we don't want to be these people they have decided to be followers. they have decided to appease the lowest common denominator so yes i do think it's important that these lawsuits continue. i think that there needs to be

more constant pressure on the media outlets that continue to spread this kind of disinformation, thissic sludge whether about the election or vaccines but we are in a fight and sorry to say that the republicans have bet that they're going to do so well in the midterms to ride to power by continuing to embrace the lie and so for those of us that think things are bad many ways they seem to be getting even worse. >> what's the incentive to be against the democracy? that's the piece i can't figure out. >> on the right in the republican party right now alm of the incentives are there. you will raise more money. you will be the rock star. you will be in good standing. marjorie taylor greene with a record quarter after she was expelled from the committees. the people that are telling the truth like congressman gonzalez

that you quoted before or liz cheney are being purged. so you look at this and this is the world upside down. where words have lost the meaning. truth has become falsehood. black is white. in the republican party right now if you want to be viable, if you want to be popular, if you want to bring in the clicks and the big bucks there's no consequence for the lies and there's real blowback if you insist on telling the truth. that's the sick truth about the republican party right now. >> the sick truth is where we'll stop today. thank you so much for starting us off. after the break, new details about the federal probe into the ex-president's personal attorney rudy giuliani. why the former guy and his inner circle should worry. and a school becoming an

anti-vax haven and warning the fifth grade ores not to hug mommy and daddy if they oof been vaccinated for covid. we'll speak to a reporter there for an inside look an agrossive new strategy from the biden administration to enact the popular agenda despite gop obstruction and disinformation. all those stories and more when we continue after a quick break. . i need indeed. indeed you do. the moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a short list of quality candidates from our resume database. claim your seventy five dollar credit, when you post your first job at indeed.com/home. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ hey google, turn up the heat. ♪ ♪ ♪

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on friday we started this hour with reporting by ore news organizations later reported by nbc news as well that the fbi told rudy giuliani he was the target of a russian influence campaign. as a correction while the briefing, that briefing was

prepared it was never delivered according to a second source familiar with the matter because of concerns that it might complicate the criminal investigation of giuliani. the latest developments raising questions that our colleague frank wrote about. quote significantly even in its corrected version, "the washington post" explained what it knew about why the fbi was even con techl plaiting a visit to him in the first place. quote, the fbi became aware in late 2019 that rudy giuliani was the target of a russian influence operation aimed to circulate falsehoods intended to damage president biden politically prior to the election. he continues, quote, what no outlet examined in detail, though, was the question of why the fbi, knowing that someone was the target of a russian intelligence operation, would not sit down with that person.

giuliani is still talking about the government conspiracy. he told fox news this amp, quote, they're trying to frame me. they're trying to find something they can make into a crime. some technical violation. some mistake i made. they'll take anything. joining us is frank and andrew weissman and now a professor of law at nyu and claire is all still around. frank, tell me more about your analysis of a defensive briefing prepared and ultimately not delivered. >> sure. well, andrew has experienced this, as well. i've had to make decisions as assistant director about whether to brief or not to brief and ultimately you do a cost benefit analysis and decide whether it's sensible to do it. does it help or hurt the

investigation? here's how that conversation may have gone with regard to rudy giuliani and the briefing that wasn't given. first question, is this -- what's the purpose of the briefing? somebody would have said we do them to raise awareness, to warn people that they're in over their heads with the russians and somebody might have said rudy giuliani would be an associate attorney general of the united states, u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. he knows how they operate so this doesn't give him a warning about anything he doesn't already know. next question, what might he say in response to a briefing? he will ask if he's under investigation and ask for details and can't tell him. he's going to ask if he can give a statement to us and can he tell us that he thinks he knows what he is doing and doesn't need a briefing? he will say that and do we my

randize him? he might think he's in custody. okay. and then last question, what do we get out of this? do we have evidence on giuliani right now? do we need him to say something and monitor him after the briefing to see if he changes his conduct? answer, probably not. probably have enough. this is probably more harmful to give the briefing than not. he is going to come out publicly if we give it and say that they never told me to stop doing what i was doing and therefore i thought it was okay. let's not give the briefing. that's how that goes. >> i want to come back to the view from rudy because we also know a lot of what we know about rudy's position both as someone for whom a defensive briefing was prepared and not delivered as frank just explained and as someone who sort of the curtain

was yanked back and the defense on television where they sort of all roll it out is donald trump told me to do it but can you explain when you're under investigation for violations, two things can be true. you can also be acting as an agent of a foreign government, suspected that the case? >> absolutely. so he has a really good defense if he was solely acting for a us person and if the only client was the president of the united states. now, the former president. then that cannot be a violation because that requires that he act for a foreign person either a foreign government or any foreign individual. the issue here is you can walk and chew gum at the same time. you know? he can have both as many lawyers

do they have multiple clients and so the task for the southern district of new york is going to be parsing that out and to follow the money trail and the paper trail as to who the clients were for rudy giuliani. if he has foreign clients they clearly were asking him to do something and so all you have to do is trace that out as to what he was doing for them. and to show that -- part what he was doing was for a foreign client. >> wasn't that part of the -- that was central to the man fort investigation. how does that enhance that investigation? what would you imagine fbi is doing with rudy's information now? >> sure. so first you are absolutely right. the statute is a statute that was not often prosecuted.

that's an understatement. until the special counsel investigation and then paul manafort and rick gates and others were investigated and charged with being actors in the united states for foreign governments and this is a statute that a lot of people in the senate are only both sides are saying really needs to be enforced more and i agree with that. in terms of what you are trying to get in doing a search of his house, of victoria toensing's house is looking for frankly leads. what you are really trying to get is what are all the ways that rudy giuliani communicates? what kind of applications does he use? we did this in special counsel investigation where you discover certain email accounts and certain applications that people use but you don't know all of them. there is nothing better than getting someone's actual iphone,

their laptop and ipad so that you can see all of the different ways in which people communicate and then you follow that pain trail and get search warrants for those communication devices and go to internet service providers because the trail is going to be critical here. >> claire, what is your sense? all of the sort of bluster and what we hear from rudy which is deflection and misdirection. what is your sense of his true legal peril as we sit here? >> i'm appearing on your show with two people who spent their lives working on paetsch prosecutions. when you are a state prosecutor you respond to burglary and the crimes. the feds are the ones that handle the really complex investigations that are paper

based and let me just circle and putt stars all under a what andrew just said about following the money. does anybody really believe that rudy giuliani wasn't pocketing big money through all of this? of course not. remember the one call he made when there was a butt dial and saying him saying to somebody we have to get money in the door. i don't remember the amount. $50,000 or $100,000 in the door. this was a guy who was depending on six-figure checks from clients on a consistent basis. does anybody believe that he was running around the world pro bono with the oligarchs and the money that's just totally flushing through the back rooms of these crooks? of course not. so what is really going to happen here is the federal government and he knows this. that's what's really ironic about this is he knows what the southern district can do with a

paper investigation following the money that he thought he was untouchable because of donald trump and now they're under a time crunch i think but if they do what these two really smart guys i'm on with will explain to you if they follow the money i think they have rudy giuliani. i think they've got him. >> frank, i'll give you a quick last word. where would you say this investigation is? nearing the end? in the middle? can you put any sort of time line on it? >> when the search warrant is executed you are saying, look, everybody, announcing to the world, we have an investigation. we have got enough for probable cause to get in this guy's devices. we're pretty much looking to corroborate what we know. i think it's wrapping but this sets up a fascinating tension between trump and giuliani because as was said giuliani was probably getting money from the

ukrainians and now trump will claim giuliani i was just working for trump. he is my client. and trump will have to say, yes. he was just working for me. i knew everything he was doing. trump's not going to say that jruedy will be hung out to dry. >> frank, andrew, thank you both so much for spending time with us. after the break, the miami school offering anti-vax indoctrination as part of the $30,000 a year tuition. the private school attracting vaccine conspiracy theorists from all over the world. [ engine revving ] [ race light countdown ] ♪♪ ♪♪ when you save money with allstate you feel like you're winning. safe drivers save 40%

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as uist health policy experts beg people to take the shots "the new york times" reports on a private school in miami that threatened the employment of teachers who got the vaccine and told students no tot hug the vaccinated parents more than five seconds. this is amid the backlash. inside centner academy hundreds of querreys from all over the world and more from people to enroll the children at the school and tuition runs up to $30,000 a year. meanwhile account miami herald" reports some parents see it as insane and dangerous and that very few familiar with the school's co-founder were

surprised. she was talking about doctors that seem fringe and all these weird emails. are masks good for mental progress? they screamed republican, trump, anti-covid. and last week in response to the anti-vaccine threats made by the school the white house defended public health guidelines meant to quote keep children, parents, teachers and communities safe. joining us now is miami herald reporter colleen wright. claire is still hire. just tell us what we need to know about this school. what was it known for before it became this basically international beacon for anti-vaxxers, colleen? >> sure. it is important to know that the school is founded by two very wealthy parents who did not think of the schools in miami were up to par and made their

own and it was eccentric that opened midway through the 2019, 2020 school year just before the pandemic and focused on organic gluten and sugar free meals, parent workshops, mediation and use of crystals and a 3,000-square foot playground on top of the skoolg that they built ian a chiropractor on staff at the school for adjustments for boast students and staff so the building you're seeing that's brand new built here in miami. that is where the preschool is and also an elementary and middle school not far away. >> have anyone left due to safety? >> yes. some signed disparagement and nondisclosure agreements.

some of them have -- that was a condition whether they wanted to pull the child out of the school. some have left. depending on the grades and who you talk to. also have been a lot of staff -- a few staff members who have left and asked to sign nondisclosure agreements. >> colleen, my friend and colleague claire mccaskill has a question for you. >> first of all, i love to figure out why a parent has to sign anything to take their child out of a school where the science teacher is not teaching science but conspiracy silliness. i wanted to ask about some of the other bizarre things. if you're a parent and they're telling your child to wrap their shoes in saran wrap ian crystals and talking about reinforcing the windows so that radioactive materials -- this is all like -- like looney tunes stuff. is it now getting through to

more people in the community since your initial reporting that these people are not mainstream when it comes to how we educate children? >> sure. so just to go back, saran wrap detail in there was the open house in 2019 and i have been to the school three times pre-covid just to interview and find out what the school is about. i think, yeah. some parents a lot of parents who are at centner absorbed from another school they bought out in miami and thought the school year would be normal but fine and they soon learned that part of the reopening plan of mandatory masks and social distancing fell to the wayside. many teachers and parents say that the co-founder encouraged students, parents, staff to not wear masks and i think after a while some parents kind of got sick of it or thought it was too

much and for one parent was fine with the liberal use of masks but drew the line at stopping staff from not being vaccinated or a policy to not employ anyone that's not vaccinated but some people have been leaving before that. >> can you speak to the politics of the owners? are they friends or allies or supporters of the governor and the ex-president? >> yes. they've made some soefrl donations to president trump and also florida governor desantis. as well as local republicans here. the race for miami-dade mayor is a nonpartisan and it's become partisan. the school held a fund raising event. so they've held events at the school. they were maskless. tons of photos online and they actually also donated to a few

democrats. the centners certainly 2018 or 2019 moved back to miami and inmersed themselves with miami's power players and immediate donations to solidify the position here in miami. >> it is a tough story to report on. we are really happy to have you here and will stay on it as long as you stay on it. thank you for spending time with us today. claire is sticking around. after the break, president biden stopping the motorcade today to greet a littlest supporter. more on that strategy is next. a.

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[ding] don't get mad. get e*trade and take charge of your finances today. taking their policies to the people, kicking off this week in his gheting america back on track tour in virginia e. the tour, which has the president,

the first lady, the vice president and other members of the administration fanned out as part of an aggressive push to maintain the high levels of public support the biden agenda has seen across the partisan divide and to challenge obstruction from his republican opponents in congress. after all, a new abc poll shows the vast majority of americans are optimistic about the way things are heading under president biden. it's a number that could, we've been using this word all day, may as well continue, box in some of the republicans who want to stand in the way of some of the president's most popular proposals. let's bring in vaughn hillyard, live in virginia, claire is still here, of course. vaughn, what's the pitch? >> reporter: the pitch is that joe biden came directly to virginia here and he was in georgia last week, philadelphia last week. kamala harris is going to be in milwaukee tomorrow. joe biden will then be to louisiana. but essentially, he's setting this up as a choice.

he says, if you back free community college, then you should get behind increasing the tax rate on the top 1% back to 2001 levels, back to 2001 levels here. and essentially, he was setting up, if you support universal pre-education, then you should support increasing the corporate tax rate. and he essentially is going and doing that math, using his own personal story, using jill biden, who is on the road with him today, the long-time community college educator who introduced him in making the case that investments in community college, and investments in pre-k, is ultimately what the american public has to call up their representatives and has to call up their republican senators and demand in setting, again, this option, essentially between the 2016 tax plan that republicans passed back in 2017, versus his proposals here now. >> claire, i want to play you

the political argument as articulated by secretary pete buttigieg this morning. >> senator tim scott said the president who promised to bridge the country together should not be pushing divisive jaends. do you think the bipartisan approach will continue to work? i mean, that's their new thing, they're saying you're not bipartisan. >> i guess the question on my mind is how can you call something a divisive agenda when it has 70% of support among the american people? i mean, we're seeing this weird law of political physics that something that is wildly popular among the american people on both sides of the aisle, can't always get that same support from washington, and that -- that's a dynamic we've seen, but i don't think we have to get into it, especially because every one of these senators and members of congress is from somewhere. >> we forget sometimes that everyone -- these members and senators is from somewhere. because of the way we started this show, some are where the truth doesn't matter, but it feels like -- and again, i've worked in the white house, things can change, but at the

moment, the wind at their back and sort of the net holding them up is the incredibly high numbers of americans, democrats and republicans, who support the policies and the proposals. how long can they keep that up, claire? >> well, the biden white house has figured this out. this is all about having support out in the country, not in washington, d.c. but the other thing they're going to do, they are actively negotiating with republicans on the hill right now around the jobs plan, around the american families plan, and they're going to continue to do that in a very front of the room kind of way. they're going to keep showing that they're trying to talk to senator capito from west virginia and to other republicans who are working on this and the reason that's important is that helps them get the moderate democrats in line. if they are actually in good faith negotiating with

republicans and then republicans do a lucy and pull the football, then that gives joe manchin and other moderate democrats the ability to say, well, we tried, and you guys just are not serious about negotiating with us, and now i'll go along and give them the 50th vote they need to get this across the finish line. >> vaughn, you always talk to, you know, people in their lives and in their communities at these events. what are you hearing? >> reporter: i think what i'm hearing is asking questions about, where's the equality act stand? where does gun reform stand? where does immigration reform stand? where does the violence against women act stand? and each of the answers to those questions, when talking to folks, is that, well, it's held up in the senate. this is another situation where we're talking about votes in the senate here. you know, we all covered the democratic presidential contest in which folks, our family, friends, neighbors were engaged

on a level that none of us have seen before, and the conversations that were taking place, these rather progressive reforms and proposals here, and yet, we're having the conversation about it being stuck in the senate, and one of the things you're talking about is that these senators here, they're back in their districts right now. they're back in their states. mark kelly is in arizona. raphael warnock is in georgia here. we're talking about biden and harris making the sell. at the same time, there were democrats who catapulted these democrats into majority in the house and senate, and yet, are they going to be on the front lines making this sales pitch back to their voters back at home here to help provide some of that support? the polling numbers indicate there is that backing. conversations with folks suggest that people want access to universal pre-k, to community college. at the same time, are mark kelly and raphael warnock, are they going to stand behind biden and harris and make that pitch themselves? >> and i can't wait until you come on and say, what they heard

in their town hall was, what are you going to do about the filibuster? this conversation is to be continued. vaughn hillyard, claire mccaskill. thank you. we're grateful. coming up, the latest escalation of the big lie in arizona is raising concerns that republicans could now be putting the integrity of future elections in jeopardy. well, of course they are. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. we're just getting started. eak. don't go anywhere. we're just getting started you run it by an expert, you talk about the risk and potential profit and loss. could've used that before i hired my interior decorator. get a strategy gut check from our trade desk. ♪♪ tonight, i'll be eating a pork banh mi with extra jalapeños. [doorbell rings] thanks, baby. yeah, we 'bout to get spicy for this virtual date. spicy like them pajama pants. hey, the camera is staying up here. this is not the second date. when you buy this plant at walmart, they can buy more plants from metrolina greenhouses so abe and art can grow more plants.

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no congressional audit is ever going to convince these voters, particularly when the president will continue to say that the election was stolen. the best way we can show respect for the voters who are upset is by telling them the truth. [ applause ] >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in the east. just over 100 days ago, that plea was made by the man who years prior was the republican

party's standard bearer, their choice to be president of the united states. his call for truth-telling has been roundly ignored and even invited a censure from his state party, a censure attempt. a prime example of what's taking place in arizona, fueled by donald trump's big lie that the election was stolen from him, republican state senators are recounting 2.1 million ballots cast in the state's biggest county, maricopa county. they're only looking at two of the races, the contest for president and u.s. senate, and what a coincidence, those are the two races won by democrats. ignoring the findings of multiple state recounts, arizona republicans say they're examining unconfirmed claims of fraud. the faux audit now is likely to go on even longer than first expected. arizona republic reporting this. quote, senate audit liaison and former arizona secretary of state ken bennett said saturday that there was no deadline for the audit and that the recount

may need to be paused on may 14th when veterans memorial toll coliseum is reserved to host graduations. the back pedaling comes just days after bennett told reporters he was confident workers would wrap up by may 14th and despite plans to increase the number of ballot counters and shifts starting may 3rd. the effort was shrouded in mystery when it first began. reporters were not even allowed to observe, but a judge then denied the request by cyber ninjas, the questionable company leading the counting, if we can call it that, for the audit to be done in secret. and on friday, an arizona republic reporter was escorted from the site. quote, after posting a photo showing a former republican legislator at a ballot counting table. the photo showed a ballot with no markings discernable on a vertical stand in front of former state representative anthony kern. the reporter was told his press

privileges were being revoked. he left the building as requested. arizona's audit has caught the attention of many, especially the disgraced ex-president. last week, he suggested the audit would find him thousands and thousands of votes and then said it will lead to finding votes in other states he lost in november. like georgia and michigan and wisconsin. arizona's audit has become trump's obsession, "the washington post" reports. quote, ensconced in his private club in florida, trump asked aides for updates multiple times a day, expressing particular interest in the use of uv lights, wow, still on the lights, to scrutinize maricopa's ballots, a method that has bewildered election experts who say it could damage is votes. he talks about it constantly, said one person who recently visited mar-a-lago and listened to trump discuss the recount for 45 minutes, speaking anonymously, of course. but the worry is not just that the former guy is blabbing about a fake audit to mar-a-lago visitors.

it's what else he alluded to in his comments. "the post" adds this, trump's embrace of the arizona effort has come amid mounting anxiety among election officials that similar partisan vote counts could become the norm. the perpetuation of the big lie is where we start this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. phil rucker is here, "washington post" senior washington correspondent and lucky for us an msnbc political analyst. also joining us, former rnc chairman and msnbc contributor, michael steele, and ryan randazzo is here. we have to start with you. first of all, why were you removed, and what's going on in there? >> well, why i was removed is still a bit of a mystery. at first, they told me it was because i was taking pictures of volunteers, and then later, they said, it was because there was a ballot in the photo and they've

never really given me a clear answer. i was escorted out by security and the person who took me outside the building just said it was over that picture, and i had tweeted a picture of a former lawmaker counting ballots and that lawmaker was actually at the capital on january 6th, so i thought that was newsworthy, that we had someone who traveled from arizona to the capitol for the riots that disrupted congress, and now he's down counting ballots. that gentleman also was on that ballot, so i thought it, again, was newsworthy. i tweeted the picture and was quickly removed, and we've been trying to get a clear answer on why i was removed over that photo. >> ryan, did you recognize him from footage of the insurrection or was it just something that you knew? i want to read from your reporting on just this, because it's just extraordinary. the audit is being conducted by people who participated in the insurrection. you've reported this. anthony kern, a former state lawmaker who was at the state

capitol on january 6th when rioters disrupted congress, is among the people helping to count and inspect maricopa county ballots. wow. kern's name appeared on all of the november ballots that he was counting friday and saturday at veterans memorial coliseum as part of an audit ordered by the state senate. he was nominated by the republican party as a presidential elector and his name appeared on the ballot alongside then president donald trump's name along with the party's ten other electors. he also lost his re-election bid for the arizona house. tell us more. is he under any scrutiny for his conduct at the capitol on january 6th as far as you know? >> well, democrats in arizona had requested that he be investigated for that -- participating in that event, just to see if he did commit any crimes. we don't know of any. i mean, but he clearly was there. there are photographs of him at the capitol on the 6th. nothing ever came of that.

there's no investigation, to my knowledge, but you had asked me, did i recognize him? i certainly did. there was about 100 people on the floor, but mr. kern is well-known to arizonans, besides participating in the insurrection on january 6th, as a lawmaker, he was well-known as well because he's on what's known as the brady list and this is a list of dishonest law enforcement officials. he was working as a code enforcement officer in a suburb of phoenix and a laptop went missing, and he apparently lied to his supervisor about that and got fired. this was right around the time he won his first term in the state house. and once he became a lawmaker in arizona, he tried to get rid of the brady list through legislation, so he is someone that reporters in arizona are certainly going to recognize when they see him participating in this audit. >> i need to make sure i understand everything. so, he was fired and on a list of sort of discharged law

enforcement officials, then became a local politician, went to the insurrection, and now his hands are touching ballots in an audit of maricopa county votes? how did that happen, in your view, ryan? >> well, the cyber ninjas told us they were screening the folks that they were allowing to count these ballots and that they had done things like looked at their social media, but if you did just a cursory google search of anthony kern, you would learn that he's on this list of dishonest law enforcement people. that would probably preclude you from getting a job where you handled money or any kind of security sensitive position because he's, you know, basically a known liar and on this county list of dishonest law enforcement. you would also see on his social media that he has tweeted things like directly to president trump, saying, i know there was fraud in this election. so, he clearly has a strong bias about what happened with the

november election, so to choose him as one of the people who's allowed down on the floor to count ballots and, frankly, be around ballots, i knew would be concerning to readers. >> if i had a paper bag, michael steele, i'd be breathing into it. ryan has, i think, solved a mystery of what they were looking for. he says cyber ninjas were screening these people. it was known that he was a disgraced, discharged law enforcement official, and that he attended the insurrection and they picked him. is there anything else we need to know about what this effort is about, michael steele? >> no, i don't think there is. i mean, it's very obvious that this is a fraud to perpetuate or continue a fraud that there was this, you know, great, you know, effort to overturn the election by democrats and give donald trump the win. i mean, it's just -- it's a mass of confusion and noise, which is what they want.

at the end of the day, what do they think is going to happen here? what happens at the end of this audit? so, they came out and they say, guess what, oh, joe biden didn't win the election here in arizona. you know, these -- the u.s. senate seat didn't go for the democrats. what do you think is going to happen then? because nobody believes this. they're the only idiots in the room believing what they're doing. they're wasting taxpayers' money. they're trying to perpetuate a fraud on top of -- like i said, another fraud that this, you know, that this big lie was out there. so, yeah, you put these people in charge, you got a disgraced, you know, elected official sitting at the table looking at his own ballots with his name on it? and counting? and no one thinks there's a problem there? i mean, this is just stupid. all this is stupid. and i wish people would stop treating it like it's serious. it's dangerous. it's dangerous. and the day will come --

>> well -- >> -- when states like arizona continue down this road where there's going to be federal intervention, and then what do you do? you have no hook to hang your hat on at that point, nicole, because you are demonstrating you cannot be trusted with the votes of the citizens in your state. >> well, and i think the reason it is worthy of ryan's superb reporting and our scrutiny is because the lie fuels the gravest threat to our homeland security. and the lie -- you talked about a room full of idiots. other rooms full of idiots are regaling the disgraced ex-president with stories about how goes the audit. i mean, if he'd spent that much time looking for covid testing supplies, he might have been re-elected, michael steele. >> yeah. imagine that. if you just did the job that you were elected to do, you wouldn't be sitting in mar-a-lago in a cup of, you know, pity stew. you know, the fact of the matter

is, you've got people who are feeding that nonsense to trump. the country's moved on. we are so past him at this point, it's galling to him. but this is his little hook. and then members on the hill and others in states like arizona who want to perpetuate this narrative. and then actions taken like we see in arizona, you know, thanks to the great reporting, just to pull it out of the crap hole and show us exactly how bad it is, but more importantly, how potentially worse it could get. because this does touch on a whole host of things that go beyond just the ballot itself. it is one of the -- one of the important legs that underscores and holds up our democracy, and when you take that leg out, it doesn't stand, and it doesn't stand strong for long. so, i think, you know, i think that more good reporting on this is important. and more scrutiny has to be shown on this. but we know at the end of the day, it doesn't change anything.

but that's not the point. >> it's not the point at all, and what's so interesting, phil rucker, is to go back and look at what has happened to the republicans who told the truth and we started our last hour with your colleague, ashley parker, with this great piece of reporting over the weekend about how perpetuating the big lie and carrying out these idiotic performative, fraudulent acts like what is taking place in arizona isn't just acceptable. it is required in today's republican party. >> it is, nicole, and i think that's one of the reasons why this is playing out in arizona, because let's keep in mind, this is an effort being run by a private company whose top executive spread some of the baseless conspiracies about election fraud but didn't have any evidence. it's being financed by people around the country who were supportive of president trump's challenge to the election and who were in his ear in the run-up to the january 6th

insurrection, feeding him some of these lies, and it was approved by trump's allies in the republican-led state senate in arizona, and it's nothing more than a performance here. they're going to put together a tally, come up with a number. it's not going to be official. it's not going to be legal. it's not going to change the outcome of the election. but it is going to motivate millions of people around the country to believe the big lie that former president trump has been telling them and will perpetuate that and my colleagues at the "post" interviewed election officials in other states who say they're very concerned about the danger of what's happening in arizona, because it becomes a playbook for political candidates in the future in other contests and other states when they lose an election. they can try to pretend they still won and follow this same pattern, and it will just undermine and erode the public's trust in our democracy and in the legitimacy of the vote for president, but for a whole bunch of other offices as well. >> ryan, what is the -- what are

the different scenarios for how and when this end? >> well, we were originally told it was going to end by may 14th, because as you read, there's high school graduations supposed to take place at that coliseum. >> right. >> but they're telling us now -- i mean, there's just no way, i mean, that they will finish when you look at that coliseum, there are palettes full of unopened ballots on one side and a couple of boxes on the other where they've finished counting and inspecting and shining uv lights on the ballots, so it just was apparently -- abundantly clear that wasn't going to happen on that time schedule, so now they're saying this could take months. apparently they'll pause, let the kids have their graduation ceremonies in there and then, i guess, resume doing whatever they're doing for as long as it takes. >> ryan, are there any efforts to stop the counting if it is -- if evidence -- i mean, is there anyone to even audit the process if reporters are kicked out to

find out if anything untoward is going on inside? >> well, they are allowing observers in there, so there are people besides the media who are allowed to observe. that initially was the only way the media could get in was by volunteering to work as an observer. the media sued for the access that we have, and we came to a verbal agreement with the senate republicans that the media would be allowed in but not everyone at once, that we would have pool reports, which as you know, is very common. and so, that's how the media has access at all. yes, there are separate efforts outside of the media's lawsuit to stop this audit. those have been unsuccessful. you know, they have been allowed to proceed. the judge in that case is concerned with the procedures, though, and what is actually happening to the ballots to make sure that they are secure. so that is ongoing. although, you know, they're already -- the ballots are in

the coliseum and they're being counted by the folks that the senate hired, so i don't know how likely it is that a lawsuit is going to successfully stop this, but that's the question we all have is where does this end? you know, how long does it take them to do what it is they're seeking to do, and then what are they going to say at the end, and how is that going to affect our state? are the lawmakers here going to use that as justification to make more restrictions on voting in arizona? is this going to be common place after elections where the senate grabs all the ballots and rushes them down to the coliseum so they can be inspected with uv lights afterwards? yeah, it's a great question. where does this all go? >> and michael steele, just real quickly, we know about donald trump's obsession with uv light. i think he suggested it to cure covid at that famous briefing where he suggested bleach. but seriously, what is the

appropriate role in a land far, far away, in a time most of us have forgotten for a national party and its leaders when something like what ryan has reported on is happening? if you care about the truth, and if you care about the rule of law, and if you care about the transfer of power, what would a -- just remind us what a normal rnc chairman would do. >> well, we'd be speaking out against this. you wouldn't even probably get to this point, number one, because there would have been so much conversation with the leadership or the republican leadership in the state that -- to avoid this type of embarrassment. this does not help the party's overall narrative, to be seen as trying to undo the election that was, you know, appropriately held and correctly counted, et cetera, et cetera. and to now be on the back end trying to come to a different result, even though you know a different result is not going to really materialize.

and so, i think that lack of leadership there is not only transparent, it is painfully noticeable, and i guess the question for ryan and the good folks of arizona is, what do you do when your legislature goes rogue on you? where they just decide, you know what? screw you. we want to do this, wah, wah, wah, right? crying over their spilt milk because they didn't get the election results that they wanted. man up, woman up, that's the game. play it the correct way and maybe you will win. but cheating is not your answer. so, the citizens of arizona have a big, big haul in front of them to ask themselves, are these people really representing us? are we that desperate in front of the country after an election to do this? and that's going to be a question for a lot of states going forward. so, yeah, republicans, you've opened a pandora's box, and you stuck your whole self in it, and

what's inside that box is going to eat your ass alive, excuse me, but it's going to eat you up. sorry. i just -- >> the republican -- >> it's so maddening. >> the republican war on democracy, it's -- i mean, look, there's nothing else to say, michael steele. i appreciate your candor and your anger. i mean, the -- i'd love to cover something else, but the republican war on democracy and on free and fair elections in the past is just staggering. ryan, we are so grateful to have you and your great reporting. unfortunately for you, we will continue to call on you. phil rucker, thank you for being part of this. michael steele, thank you for being here. thank you all for starting us off this hour. when we return, what will it take to neutralize the threat of domestic violent extremism? despite the arrests of more than 400 people since the january 6th capitol riot, experts fear the most dangerous phase is the one that is yet to come. that story is next. plus, the biden administration takes its first steps toward reversing one of

the cruellest policies of the trump presidency. but there is still a lot of work ahead on that front. and the u.s. is not likely to reach herd immunity in its fight against the coronavirus any time soon. we'll explain why and tell you that it is not reason to panic. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break, so don't go anywhere. tinues after a quick break, so don't go anywhere this is our block. our place. our people. watch the curb. not having a ride to get the vaccine. can't be the reason you don't get it. you wanna help? donate a ride today. at chewy we believe feeling good comes first. that's why we offer veterinary diets, prescriptions, even compounded medications customized for your pet, so you can get what they need to feel healthy. save 20% on your first prescription order

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since the january 6th insurrection, authorities around the country have charged more than 400 people in connection with their actions that day at the capitol. and despite the fracturing of right-wing extremist groups like the oath keepers and proud boys, experts are still concerned that we're heading toward a dangerous

and tenuous next few years. experts told the "daily beast" that we could expect more violence by radicals during the biden presidency because they've grown angrier and more resolved in their efforts. quote, while we're unlikely to see a mass event like january 6th that brought together 10,000 people at the capitol, there could be more local attacks on a smaller but maybe more lethal scale, car rammings, assassination plots and bombings of state government buildings, infrastructure, or places where ordinary folks gather. and the dissolution of these extremist groups may make it harder for authorities to keep tabs on their plans. quote, the fbi can more easily infiltrate an organization like the oath keepers, which draws members from the military and law enforcement, but with groups like the proud boys splintering, rogue members are harder to monitor. networks that break up can realign under so many different names that it's impossible to keep track.

joining our conversation, clint watts, former fbi special agent, distinguished research fellow at the foreign policy research institute and an msnbc national security analyst, and a.c. thompson, pbs frontline correspondent and propublica reporter. if you think it sounds scary and ominous and we're just learning about this very real new normal where domestic violent extremism is a far greater threat -- i guess it's not that new to people who are experts in any form of foreign terrorism. it's pretty daunting to hear that it's about to get worse. >> yeah, i think that's a distinct possibility, and all along, over the last six months, the thing that i have been concerned about has been the potential for acts of mass casualty violence, so bombings, car attacks, that sort of thing, and i think we should be all not

paranoid but we need to be vigilant about the potential for that type of action. >> a.c., what does that look like? after 9/11, it was if you see something, say something. what does that look like when it has such a different connotation as a domestic threat? >> right. i mean, i think the good work that needs to be done now is the media needs to be covering this and the media's been much stronger, much better about covering this. we need law enforcement to step up, and i think we've seen a lot of that, but also, we need people who they are seeing concerning behavior from their family members. if their family members are lurking online in extremist chat rooms, talking about blowing things up, talking about killing people, they need to go to the authorities. they need to go to the social media platforms and they need to make sure that something is done, and that's something that hasn't always happened. >> a.c., how do you -- this is a dumb question, but how do you cover these groups? >> you know, for me, i've

covered them in two different ways. i've covered them by spending time with the members of these groups and talking to them, whether from prison. i interviewed one of the members of the kidnapping plot in the gretchen whitmer michigan kidnapping plot, one of the men accused of trying to kidnap the governor there. but also by looking at their criminal records, looking at what they leave on social media, looking at the people who don't want to talk and want to remain in the shadows who are connected to violent actions, and i think one of the things that get -- comes through with these groups is many of them are not -- they haven't been chastened by what happened. they haven't been -- they're not retreating after the capitol siege and insurrection. many of them are more dedicated than ever. they're more radicalized than ever and more sort of bent on potentially violent action. so, that's what you get when you talk to these people. there's reporting my colleagues are doing that will come out soon that definitely is going to

suggest at least some of the defendants in the capitol siege are not at all, you know, not at >> and clint, does that come from sort of this parallel reality that's been created on the far right? does it come from -- where does it come from? >> that's right, nicole. for those that are still empowered by what happened on january 6th or saw it as a beacon of hope, like that's where they should go to, it's because this is their friends and family that believe this. this is what they see online. this is who they congregate with and it's an achievement in their information world. and i think in certain parts of the country, you were talking about arizona on the last segment, i think that's also indicative. a lot of these locations are still believing in the big lie. i think where the damage really comes is part of the reason we haven't seen attacks, at least

in the last five to six months, is because there's been an inavailability of targets. as the pandemic ends, the amount of targets will pick up. you will have mass gatherings, and that's already starting to occur. you're having people move about the country. and that will create an availability, essentially, for them. there's also been a lull in the system because they've waited to hear what donald trump will say, and he's been remarkably quiet in the past couple months. but they'll either wait for him to give some sort of thoughts about what the direction of their movement should be, or they will strike out on their own and we saw this dynamic happen with international terrorism. you had a number of splinters, for example, after osama bin laden died ten years ago. you had a number of splinters take off, compete, conduct violence to draw attention, to radicalize and recruit, and that violence spiralled out of control until you have what became known as isis and eventually the islamic state. you take that same sort of dynamic happening right now, except we have access to and own

weapons. they have access to targets in the united states. and most of the most violent ones that i worry about were not at the january 6th insurrection. they are online, and their evidence has shown up in 2019 and into 2020 with these single one-off attacks with assault rifles. if one of those were to happen successfully, i think you'd see a contagion like we've seen with mass shooters over the last couple months and that would be the most dangerous scenario for law enforcement coming up this summer. >> what is the most effective intervention on the part of law enforcement and intelligence, clint? >> nicole, that's a big challenge, and we've seen it come up a couple times in the last two weeks and it's being debated today, which is how do you spot, detect, and assess online extremists when there are so many people talking about a second civil war or a race war, talking about killing someone. how do you see what is actual signal to noise and then interdict it? the big challenge is for law enforcement the number of leads,

probably number in the hundreds of thousands in the united states at this point, and you have to close the distance with them. generally, the younger they are, the more likely they are to turn to violence. the older militia groups, while significant and worrisome, they generally like to show up, they like to protest, they like to be in their gear, and january 6th was kind of an anomaly, property destruction and protests, but there are violent splinters. you're seeing proud boys splinters break away, while other proud boys groups have become more nonviolent as kind of moving back to a drinking club or moving away from what they saw at the insurrection, so i think for law enforcement, how do we expect them to preempt if we don't let them watch anything, if they can't look at social media or be in these forums, it's pretty difficult to stop. they can only react. >> and it's probably harder to go and embed with them. it's an unbelievable challenge. i'm really grateful to get to talk to both of you. clint watts and a.c. thompson, thank you so much for spending

time with us today. when we come back, the first steps in a very long process to reverse one of the most heinous policies from the last president, the separation of young migrant children from their families. that story's next. ant children their families that story's next. nd easy ways e with a skilled tax pro. securely drop off your documents, have them picked up, or upload them, and work with a tax pro online from home. safe and easy ways to file that work around you. have you ever seen this before? and work with a tax pro online from home. she's so beautiful. janie, check this out. >come here. >>let me see. (chuckles) she looks...kind of like me. yeah. that's because it's your grandma when she was your age. oh wow. that's... that's amazing. oh and she was on the debate team. yeah, that's probably why you're the debate queen. >i'll take that. >>look at that smile. i have the same dimples as her. (laughter) yeah. >same placements and everything. >>unbelievable. with hepatitis c... ...i felt i couldn't be at my...

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it is one of, and it's sad that we have to say one of, the cruellest policies of the trump years and now the biden administration is taking its first concrete steps toward

reversing it. today, the biden administration is reuniting four migrant families who were separated at the southern border under donald trump's zero tolerance policy three years ago. the families include at least one child who was separated from his or her parent at 3 years old and two women who were separated from their children in late 2017. the administration hopes that these four reunions will be the first of many as they work to reunite the over 1,000 migrant children who are still separated from their parents. let's bring into our conversation someone who knows a whole bunch about this, my colleague, jacob sobron. soboroff. you've been covering this story since the very, very beginning. how are we to feel about -- it feels good that they're starting to turn this back, but four feels like -- i mean, four is better than none, of course, but when do they think they'll come in batches? is each and every one excruciately complicated? tell us what this process looks like. >> nicole, you're asking the same questions that the lawyers for these children are asking, and they think, you know, how

should we feel? i think the feeling is bittersweet because it's four of over a thousand children who remain separated from their parents, according to secretary mayorkas who we speak with yesterday. we spoke with michelle as well who's running the task force for secretary mayorkas. i think why some of the advocates are frustrated with the pace of the progress of the task force, and again, this is good news, and you can't really slice it any other way for these four families in particular. some of them have waited over three years, nicole, after being taken from one another forcibly by the trump administration to be able to have the opportunity they'll have this week to literally physically be in the presence of a mother or father or son or daughter again. but what about everybody else? what about the 700 who are not missing, so to speak, unlocatable or unreachable, the ones who they know where they are right now, and you know, the u.s. government, according to these lawyers, should be able to

bring them back much faster. if the beginning, as you said, of a long process. it's good news for these four families this week but there really is a lot more work to do. >> and jacob, is one of the factors the way at which this policy was carried out under the last administration? you know, we learned from that ig report that you and your colleague, julia ainsley, reported on, at the highest level, they green lit the separation of even nursing infants from their mothers. it was so extreme. what are the complicating factors? >> i certainly think that the negligence or the cruelty or the lack of planning, however you want to characterize it, and the record keeping around the policy is largely to blame about why we are where we are today or why we are where we were a hundred days ago at the beginning of the biden administration. but right now, there are a lot of valid questions about, you know, what the relief will be. what's the mechanism they're going to bring the families back

with? are they going get humanitarian parole, all of them, and then figure out whether or not they get permanent status once they get here? those are the kind of questions that the task force is wrestling with, but those are important questions that i think these children want answered yesterday. i mean, that's -- that's an oversimplification. they should have never been separated in the first place. more importantly, the work of the task force is not complete even if the families are reunited. what about accountability? will there be a criminal investigation, a referral from homeland security to the department of justice or the relevant senate or house committees? you know, the president called this criminal. he told geoff bennett that there was going to be a thorough investigation of the policy at his justice department but we have seen no signs of that yet. the secretary of homeland security told me yesterday, on sunday, that he hasn't excluded anything. but they certainly haven't announced an investigation, that's for sure. >> jacob, how are the children doing? >> it's a great question. and for this small group of

four, we don't know yet, and a lot of the details -- and i don't blame them -- are being kept very close to the vest. we know for the sake of the privacy of the families, nicole, but what we do know from the mental health service provider that has tried to reach out to every one of these families is that they all have lasting trauma, trauma that will probably never go away, but it's trauma that right now the u.s. government is on the hook for in terms of paying for these mental health services, and i'm glad you brought that up because that's another area, wrap around services, the task force has to determine, announce, and provide for each and every one of these families, in perpetuity, the lawyers hope, care for the families and that includes mental health. >> unbelievable story. we'll stay on it because you stay on it. jacob soboroff, thank you so much. up next for us, the headlines are daunting. herd immunity in this country is no longer seen as an attainable goal. when we return, our medical expert will explain what it will

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claim your seventy five dollar credit, when you post your first job at indeed.com/home. despite more than 56% of all u.s. adults now being at least partially vaccinated and a decrease in coronavirus cases and deaths, experts now say that reaching herd immunity is unlikely in the u.s., at least in the foreseeable future. they tell "the new york times" that's because of slowing daily vaccinations, vaccine hesitancy, and spreading variants and the haziness of the concept in a country this large where herd immunity may be determined more regionally, dependent on vaccinations and infection control in one city or even one neighborhood. san francisco, for example, is seeing signs of normalcy today, having vaccinated about 70% of its population and 86% of its most vulnerable citizens. from the "times," quote, instead, experts are coming to the conclusion that rather than making a long promised exit, the

virus will most likely become a manageable threat that will continue to circulate in the u.s. for years to come, still causing hospitalizations and death but in much smaller numbers. joining our conversation is nbc news correspondent jacob ward, live for us in san francisco. and msnbc medical contributor dr. bhadilia, medical director of the special pathogens unit at boston medical center. doctor, i want to start with this breaking news that i think has come out since we've been on the air. the fda is preparing to authorize use of the pfizer vaccine in adolescents 12 to 15 years old by early next week, according to federal officials familiar with the agency's plan. i know that is a huge relief to parents who even though they're vaccinated, if you've got unvaccinated kids, you still don't have peace of mind. >> that's right, nicole, and what pfizer has said is that these vaccines are at least in

efficacious as in the older children's group and not only that, there is a good safety signal and the side effects are similar to what they've seen in the 16 and over age group that they've been vaccinating. this is good for two reasons. as kids are looking in the late summer potentially to go to summer camp, then in the fall, in the start of school, you know, getting more children vaccinated who might be in this group since it's helping us potentially prevent outbreaks or potentially prevent disease among children who may be gathering, it's allowing them to return to normalcy, socially and educationally. but the other reason is as you just mentioned, nicole, if we all have hesitant segments of our population, vaccinating 12 to 15-year-olds is going to get us closer to herd immunity because what you might see is that cases go down in the fall but given that this is a winter virus, what you want to do is try to bring the cases down, get as many people vaccinated over the summer so in the fall, the winter, if the cases go up, more of us are protected. >> yeah, i mean, jacob, that

seems to be the two-headed benefit of what san francisco has accomplished. they've got protected citizens, but they've also seemingly extinguished transmission. talk about their efforts. >> you know, it's extraordinary to be here on this very emotional, beautiful monday, nicole. you know, at a time when civic life really is reemerging in san francisco. the numbers really tell the story. at this point, 72% of san francisco residents over the age of 16 have had at least one dose, and 86% of residents over the age of 65 have also received at least one dose. i mean, that 85% threshold is truly within sight inside the city limits here. really, that just shows you what can happen when a city is vaccinated. we have, at this point, the major public library has reopened. people will be able to drink in bars inside beginning next week. people are going inside museums with an appointment.

they're working out inside gyms. all that is happening here in san francisco, nicole, because of the incredible success with the vaccine. >> well, and dr. bhadelia, there's no denying the numbers. our friend, dr. jha, tweeted that the top five vaccinated states have the lowest numbers of cases. is the sort of second half of the country -- i'm not talking about the hard core anti-vaxxers but the vaccine reluctant, are public health officials looking to the numbers to sort of do some of that convincing? >> yeah, the proof's in the pudding, right? i mean, israel's been ahead of us. we've seen they've reached zero cases for a few days now. they have one or two. and so, you -- we may, yes, it may take a while for us to get to herd immunity because of the variants and these areas but the other reason -- the other thing we have to keep in mind is just because it might take a while, doesn't mean we won't have incremental return to normalcy just as you saw reported. the last part of this is we have

to keep trying and it is using the data of saying, look, if you get vaccinated, you're not just returning your own life to normal, but protecting yourself, but you're not becoming a potential carrier who's transmitting this disease, and you're allowing your communitier transmitting this disease. i agree with dr. jha we might be getting back to normal before we reach it. it's not an on and off button. there are many diseases like measles where we achieved herd immunity, but when vaccinations go down you get outbreaks. we're not going to eradicate this virus off the face of the earth. we have to ensure the vaccination rates stay high so we don't get the outbreaks. >> jacob, are there any secrets to san francisco's success? how did they convince so much of

their population to take the shot? >> reporter: the history of san francisco as a public health, cutting edge environment is really there for anyone to read. look back to the hiv aids crisis. you can see the refinements, the deep robust public health system. that has meant a great deal. the human mind is as much a factor as anything else. the cdc has begun to measure vaccine hesitancy rates. in some places those numbers are as high as 20%. here in the bay area the vaccine rates are as low as 7%, 8%, 9%. compare that to miami-dade county or clark county, 19% there. the attitude here toward being vaccinated is so different than

it is in the rest of the country. that seems, again, to be a big reason we've come out of here hand in hand with the logistics that public health has put in place here, nicolle. >> as the former "politico" of the three of us, the politics of san fra are pretty clear. thank you both so much for spending time with us today. when we return, we'll remember lives well lived. mber . not what's easy. so when a hailstorm hit, usaa reached out before he could even inspect the damage. that's how you do it right. usaa insurance is made just the way martin's family needs it with hassle-free claims, he got paid before his neighbor even got started. because doing right by our members, that's what's right. usaa. what you're made of, we're made for. ♪ usaa ♪

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letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we remain grateful. ari melber starts right now. hi, arie. >> hi, nicolle. i'm ari melber. we have a big show for you tonight. president biden has been talking about what billionaires are getting away with. that's our special report coming up. we've been working on it and i promise you it should be interesting. also how gongman mate gates is responding to these bombshell