without beer. >> i agree. we need to get vaccines, both intellectual property and the actual vaccines out to as many as possible. thanks so much for making time tonight. that is "all in" on this monday night. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, my friend. much appreciate it. thank you for joining us at home. happy to have you here. lots of interesting news. "the new york times" first to report that the fda is expected to approve the first covid vaccine for teenagers, for kids twoel 16. now, this is not out of the blue. pfizer had recently reported clinical trial results that showed really good results among young people, ages 12 to 16. it shows the pfizer vaccine was as effective if not more effective when preventing serious illness compared to what adults experience with the

vaccine. that trial also showed the temporary side effects people sometimes get from taking the vaccine, those were basically the same in that age group. that 12 to 16 age group, as they are in adults. and that is very good news. and that very promising results now in hand, means the fda's vaccine advisory group is apparently soon going to make its recommendations, and the fda will be expected to move quickly on approving the pfizer vaccine for 12 to 16-year-olds, 12 to 15-year-olds, since the current vaccines are approved for kids 16 and up. this could happen by next week. it could potentially happen by the end of this week. but this of course will be a huge relief to families around the country who have 12, 13, 14, 15-year-old kids who have been thinking about how to mitigate covid risk for kids doing summer activities and kids going back to school in the fall.

the other two-shot vaccine similar to pfizer's, the moderna vaccine, that is in the midst of its own clinical trial in young people. there's home that could it follow pfizer pretty quickly in becoming a second vaccine approved for kids age 12 and up. there are also promising trials underway right now for kids younger than age 12. so that part of the vaccination effort is all happening now. it feels like it's happening all at once but we have been able to see this data in development and it laid the predicate for what happened now. but in terms of fda acting on it, it looks like the next new days. that's the really important and it comes amid these twin concerns that we have right now of how we're ever going to get ahead. pandemic if the rest of the world can't get vaccinate.

global vaccines are the only way to beat a global pandemic. so far it is only a handful of well-off countries who are getting to saturation coverage. we are one of those countries. that's among the best in the world when it comes to how many of our population is already vaccinated and how much vaccine supply that we have. but lots of experts are now concluding that even our vaccinations are too slow to beat this thing systematically. and we've been talking about this for a while but we're starting to get a sense of how the race is going, right in one side of the race is the number of unvaccinated people that you've still got. the amount of vaccine, excuse me, the amount of virus circulating in the population, so the number of people getting newly infected which means spread of the virus into new hosts, new people which gives it more and more opportunities to

change into more dangerous variants. that's one side of the race. how many of a toe hold kit get in our population. on the other side is the vaccination effort. how fast can we vaccinate the most people so the virus can't find another host? another person to infect, another opportunity to replicate and mutate and get more dangerous. that is the race. and more and more public health experts are saying that our vaccination effort gas as it is is so far not able to outpace the virus. so we'll be talking with a representative of the new york time about her new reporting on what she calls the emerging quote widespread consensus among experts that we're not going to win that race by vaccinations. the idea of herd immunity is not something we're going to attain. interestingly, there's reason to believe that's not terrible news. the future in that kind of a covid world is a pretty livable

understand andable future but it is worth understanding, if that's where we're heading. it is big news in terms of kids being vaccinated of the it raises really big questions in terms of how many of our population we are vaccinating and how quickly, while the rest of the world is way far behind us. so i'm looking forward to that interview. also, big political news today in terms of what is coming next from president biden and the democrats in congress. these last few days have been really bang-up news for the administration and for the country. we got the numbers in for the first quarter, the u.s. economy in the first quarter of 2021 grew at an annualized rate of 6.4%. 6.4% gdp growth? that's nuts. that's an insanely high number.

but look at this in terms of individual american households. look at this. we just got these numbers. it jumped by a record of 21.1% in the month of march. the government has been tracking that number since 1959. since they started tracking it, it has never had a higher jump than did it in march of this year. of course, both those numbers. the huge 6.4% overall economic growth rate for the country and the record dropped more than 20% jump in average income for individual american households. both of those figures are fueled by the same thing, right? both of those figures are fueled by the biden administration and the democrats in congress doing stuff. passing legislation that has made a huge economic difference. in the macro sense and the individual household number.

you can see the effect on the economy already. it's huge. and that covid relief package they passed, relief for small business owners and funding for vaccines and to safely reopen schools that rest the it, lesser noticed economic feature of the covid relief bill is that it has tons of tax cuts in it for people making under $100,000 a year. as politico has reported, quote, look at the headline. not rich? good news. you're probably getting a tax cut. quote, everybody knows democrats want to raise taxes on the rich. what hasn't gotten as much notice is how much democrats have cut taxes for most everyone else. they've cut taxes for everyone else substantially more than republicans did in the first year of their 2017 tax overhaul. quote, new estimates by congress's official forecasters stay democrats tax cuts included.

>> their covid relief package will drive down tax rates on low and middle income people so much this year that americans earning less than $75,000 a year on average will owe nothing this year in federal income taxes. it's a film side to democrats' campaign to raise taxes on the wealthy, but it's a flip side often overlooked. one senior fellow at the tax policy center saying it plays against type but this was a big honking tax cut for low and moderate income people. yeah. a sometimes overlooked fact? try completely overlooked. at least in most of the beltaway press. thanks to the tax changes in the biden relief bill, people making $75,000 this year on average will owe zero in federal income taxes. a person making between $7500 and 100,000, they'll pay 1.8%. that will be on average if you make between $75,000 and $100,000 a year.

big, big tax cuts from the democrats from everyone less than $100,000 a year. and they have passed. they're already in effect. and we've got these macro numbers that show the economy is off to the races. and household income making the biggest jump sense we started keeping records of it. yes. undercovered in the beltway press? yes. i would say. i mean, so far, zero republicans have voted for the legislation that has made this possible. what are republicans doing to turn people against had a biden and the democrats are doing? this weekend the republican leader in the house kevin mccarthy posted this on facebook touting the benefits of the covid relief bill to folks at home in his california district. as if this was something he had anything to do with. democratic house speaker pelosi was agog saying this in response. quote, minority leader kevin

mccarthy plan socialist. he claimed it would turn the united states into venezuela and he convinced every mental of his caucus to vote against it. he even warned the american people, help is not on the way. now he is touting the benefits of the american rescue plan to brag about bringing home the bacon. help is not on the way. except for this help is on the way that i would really like everybody in my home district to know about and credit me for. and we covered this phenomenon a few days ago. all the republican members of congress touting the benefits of the covid relief bill back home to their districts as if they had something to do with it when they all, every one of them, voted against it. now it is the top guy, the leader in the house, kevin mccarthy, the guy who put himself in charge of trying on stop the covid relief bill now he is bragging about it back home. help is here. talking about all the good it

will do back home in his district. because he didn't succeed in his efforts to stop it. so now he wants credit for it, right? that's one way to do it. pretend you were for it. try to take credit even though you did everything to stop it. as the biden administration and the democrats try to ream the political benefits from the popularity and the positive effect of the stuff they've done already, they are also making plans to move on to the next big stuff they'll do in congress. the american families plan that biden talked about in his state of the unit last week. only front there were two big important developments over the last few days on that that i think will set the course for how this is going to go. and that should, i think, hearten and speed up democrats' approach to both those pieces of legislation. again, both those pieces of

legislation are as big as the covid relief bill. they could be expected to have as big an effect on the economy and the standard level of living. they would both be a huge, huge deal. a couple things have happened that will set the course for how it will go. first, you know we've had this amazing two-party split screen recently. on the one hand, on the left, we've had democrats passing a $2 trillion covid relief bill got widespread support from the american people and we know strapped a rocket enjib to the economy. on the other side, the republicans seem to have no idea what to do about it as they all voted no against and it now they're all taking credit for what was in it. what they did spent their time on the last few months was just careening through this bizarre series of made-up cartoon outrages. car too lirltly in some cases.

mr. potato heads, dr. seuss, a ban on meat. all these things that either had nothing to do with the biden administration and democrats important were completely made up and had nothing to do with anything in reality. well, that dynamic is underway already for the next legislation the democrats and the biden administration are pursuing including the infrastructure bill and the american families bill. the bill that will make childcare way more affordable and preschool and community college. those things are very, very pom popular with the american public. so we've now had our first glimpse of what republicans will do about that. this time around. it turns out, they're going to try this. >> two years of college, whether you like it or not. these are the things that take away choices from the american people. >> two years of college whether you like it or not.

wait a minute. huh? this is the republican argument. joe biden, that jerk, is going to force, force everybody to go to college whether they want to or not. it will be mandatory. what? no, president biden isn't going to make you go to college. isn't going to make anyone to go college, let alone make everyone go to college. could you even imagine how that would work? like you would be drafted or something? you! you in the corner! you've been designated to get a masters degree. the president picked you. you have no choice. how would that even work, senator? president biden is not banning meat and he is not going to force everyone to go two years of college. senator blackburn's office later said she misspoke on that. but come on. this is the character of the

opposition thus far to the infrastructure bill that they're going to roll out, which the republicans say is socialism and turn us into venezuela and the american families plan which will be force college for everyone, even if you don't want it. that's the character of the opposition. okay. that's instructive. we'll stick with that. okay. dr. seuss. got it. but also, instructive, i think was this from senator mitch mcconnell who is once again, flat out promising in advance that zero republican senators will vote for biden and the democrats' next legislation. on infrastructure, on the american families plan. there will be zero republicans voting for it. talk about something undercovered by the beltway press. think about the implications of this. this ought to be the cause for wall to wall coverage from for days on end. instead, it is covered like

thing mcconnell said and everybody moves on and meanwhile we're stuck with this weird common wisdom in the beltway. all saying biden needs to find republican votes. he needs a big bipartisan show of hands. he needs to keep meeting with republicans and talking to republicans to find something they like so he can get republican votes. news flash. there won't be any republican votes. he doesn't have to do any of those things. just put up that headline again. the republicans are promising, they are saying out loud and ahead of time that no matter what is in the bill, no matter what talks happen or don't, no matter how nicely anyone talks to them or about them, there will be zero republican votes for what joe biden wants to do. zero republican votes promised in advance for infrastructure, for the american families plan, zero, none, no matter what talks happen. if that is being done in advance by the republican leader, there really is no reason for democrats to waste time talking

on republicans about their feelings on something, right? they are pledged as a gram to unanimously vote no no matter what the legislation is. which is a convenient piece of advance warning that it is not worth talking to them about it. they've already pledged zero votes. good to know. now we can stop wasting time wondering what you'll do. you've told us in advance. it also means we don't need to spend time trying to persuade you. this is a blessing for the democrats. you will recall this also happened with the covid relief plan, right? back before that passed, senator mitch mcconnell promised publicly no matter what was. in bill, democrats got that message. they didn't bother letting republicans waste time. water it down. democrats with that promise in hand from mitch mcconnell, they decided to pass the bill basically intact and quickly

without letting republicans bog them down since they were all going to be no votes no matter what. now that mcconnell has made the same promise on infrastructure and the families act, democrats are free to do the same. if there are no republican votes by guarantee in advance from fumble leader, then okay. negotiations by definition will be among democrats themselves only. which can frankly be hairy enough but it does mean they can ignore republicans entirely and move quickly. so we'll see how this translates in days ahead in the administration and in congress. but the lack of any reality-based critique from the republicans on this forthcoming legislation as well, okay, the promise that they won't vote for anything no matter what is in it. those are procedural blessings for the democrats. those are freeing for the democrats in terms of how they proceed here. and their ability in good conscience to preclude any

involvement from republican that's will slow down and weaken either of those legislative proposals. they can move ahead on their own terms with just their own votes. with clarity. meanwhile tonight, president biden has announced that he is dropping the trump administration's draconian restrictions on allowing refugee admissions into the country and even considering applications for refugee status in this country. the administration also announced faye for the first time cynic taking office, just over 100 days ago, today the administration is facilitating the reuniting of families forced apart at the border by the trump administration as we and everybody else has covered everyone else over the last several years. there are thousands of families that this was done to. kids taken away from their moms and dads forcibly by the u.s. government, by the trump administration at the southern border.

he set up a task force on reuniting these families. the task force says there are over 1,000 families separated even now. where the kids have been taken away from the parents by the u.s. government. that's a huge task ahead to get them reunited. nbc's jacob soberov has been on this from the beginning. he conducted an interview with one of the four families being reunited this week. the young man he spoke with, his name is brian. he is now 18 years old. he's from mexico. when he was 15 years old, three years ago, he was separated from his mother. according to jacob's reporting, brian and his mother will be reunited for the first time this week. three years later. joining us now from riverside, california, msnbc correspondent

jacob soberov. he has been on the story from the beginning. thank you for being with us tonight. i know this has been hard in terms of your schedule getting this interview done and trying to stay ahead of the policy change. >> reporter: thanks for having me and thanks for highlighting the stories tonight. i would say it is a bitter sweet day. it is undeniably an extraordinary announcement that the first families of over 1,000 still separated are going to be reunited, and that the biden administration has facilitated this. of course, there are so many children who have yet to go through what brian will go through this week and he was gracious enough honestly to meet up with me and share a little bit about how he's feeling, what he's been going through in the lead-up to this moment. a moment that has been literally three years in the making, in october it will be four years.

i want to share what he told me a few minutes ago. take a look. so many people have learned about what now people call the trump separation policy through the news. so few people have got to hear first hand what it was like from a now 18-year-old young man who experienced it for himself. what do you want people to know? >> well, it's just really cruel experience that i just hope no one has to go through. there's a lot of kids going through this now but it is something that you don't wish on a kid or a minor to go through. >> reporter: there are 1,000 people still in the same position as you. when you think about that, what goes through your head? >> just unbelievable that they let this happen to multiple kids and families, to be separated

from each other. it's something that you, it should not happen and something unbelievable that like, it sounds cruel. >> reporter: rachel, i have to tell but what i learned about brian from brian this evening, once he was separated, he went into high school in california. he graduated early because he wanted to get into the work forceful he wanted to become an r.n. instead with his life and with his career, he's decided to go work to a pro bono legal service provider that works with migrant children and immigration proceedings. and this was his first week on the job doing that. he's a remarkable, remarkable young man. i'm very grateful to him for sharing his story with us especially ahead of such a momentous occasion for him. >> you are kidding me. he was 15 years old, taken away from his mom, separated from his mom. as a 15-year-old kid went into

this country on his own away from his mom, he hasn't seen her in three years. in the interim three years, he's graduated early from high school and now he'll be working in a legal services organization? this is insane. >> reporter: that's right. and he's just started. his new colleagues love him very much. some of the same people he worked with in his own immigration proceedings, and you know, like i said, this is bittersweet. there is a smile on my face just getting to meet him. knowing what he's about to go through. just knowing through all of this, you know, the way we talk about it, the politics of it, the public reception of it. this is so real to him and this is what he wanted to do with his life after going through an experience i don't think anybody could comprehend outside the people going through it themselves. >> jacob, you've been able to report, including around these four reunifications this week,

that the administration was able to facilitate this essentially by granting humanitarian parole to members of these families so they could get back together. so they could come into the country and be with each other. essentially, these things were facilitated. these reunifications were facilitated by nonprofit groups, by advocacy groups, including aol, that have made this happen essentially with their own resources. they needed help from the administration to get it done in the end but they've been the ones doing the arrangements so far. >> reporter: they've done extraordinary work. not just them but all the members of the steering committee, so to speak, that have been looking for separated families, parents of children who are not yet located. still over 300 where they don't know the location of parents. brian's family is not in that category but they worked day in

and day out. the private law firm, in order to literally track down and he are unite him. and brian's is about 130 that they've been trying since the beginning of the biden administration. they're now taking action on it. brian's case is one of the first four cases. these legal service providers have identified literally hundreds more. over 1,000 who are in a similar position as he is, and that is why it is so important to stress, there is so much work yet to be done here to right the wrong of the separation policy and it includes not just the reunifications themselves. this is one of the things brian said to me. wrap-around services, mental health or restitution in some way, or even accountability for members of the trump administration that carried this policy out. and there are a lot of unanswered questions from the biden administration which i know they're working very hard on. i spoke with secretary mayorkas

yesterday. brian is fortunate enough to be one of the first four during this administration to get back his mother and his family just this week. >> msnbc correspondent jacob soboroff. what a remarkable turn in the story all these years later. thank you for joining us. i'm looking forward to seeing the rest of that interview with brian. thanks. >> reporter: thanks, rachel. again, our lead stwoir that feature with jacob, the biden administration saying the first handful where the child was separated from his parent, the first families who went through this separation policy under the trump administration, the first four families being reunited this week. expected to be the first four out of a thousand families need to go through this process. it is a slow start but finally,

finally, finally a start. much more to get to tonight. stay with us. e to get to tonigh. stay with us this is our block. our place. our people. watch the curb. not having a ride to get the vaccine. can't be the reason you don't get it. you wanna help? donate a ride today. ♪ for decades, most bladder leak pads were similar. until always discreet changed that. by inventing a revolutionary pad, that's incredibly thin. because it protects differently. with two rapiddry layers that overlap, where you need it most. for strong protection, that's always discreet. it's time to question your protection. it's time for always discreet.

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the latest republican anti-voting rights bill is on its way to the governor's desk in florida. the republican governor ron desantis says of course he will sign the bill. it is a bill even more draconian than the huge act by georgia republicans a few weeks ago. the florida bill cuts early voting, voting drop boxes, it makes it harder to vote by mail. but as this bill is about to be signed into law, republicans in florida are realizing, they might be in a little bit of an oops situation. it won't only hit democratic leaning voters. they're also accidentally going to hit their own. one of the things they're making harder to do in florida is voting by mail. mail-in voting is incredibly

popular among republican voters in florida. it has promoted and invested in getting voters to cast their votes by mail. republican legislators have again and again passed legislation in the past to make it easier to vote by mail because that's kind of the republican way of voting in florida. that's how they've been pushing republican voters to vote. you may have noticed that republicans have done really well in florida elections recently including the one last november that was supposedly so awash in mail ballot voter fraud. we need all these new restrictive voting laws. lots of people mailed in ballots. lots of republicans have mailed in ballots. republicans have done really well with mail-in voting. as they were pushing through the legislature, florida lawmakers overlooked the fact that they might be suppressing the wrong votes. they might be suppressing the votes of their own supporters. amy gardner has a remarkable

report today in the "washington post" that as the bill was being debated in the florida legislature, this is incredible, quote, some republicans privately expressed worry that it could further undercut the party's ability to encourage mail voting marksly among military voters who overwhelmingly use that method to cast their ballots. one former party official said some republicans briefly discussed whether lawmakers could except those two groups. military voters and the elderly from the new mail voting rules. according to this former republican official, key lawmaker said you can't do that. would it raise equal protection problems. he added, now damage is done. now you'll have military personnel who might not think they have to request a ballot so they won't get it. we have senior voters who don't want to go out. they might not know the law has changed. they might not get a ballot because they're not engaged. republicans have accidentally passed a whole bunch of new restrictions on voting that are

on the way to the governor's desk that includes the ways republican voters most like to vote in florida, and that the republican party itself has invested millions of dollars and decades in trying to encourage among their own voters. on the way toward passing this thing, they reportedly tried to exclude from the new law just the slivers of voters who are most likely to vote republican in florida using these methods that they are now restricting. the technical term for this is oops. we've got more on what this might mean ahead. stay with us. might mean ahead stay with us front desk. yes, hello... i'm so... please hold. ♪♪ i got you. ♪ all by yourself. ♪ go with us and get millions of flexible booking options. expedia. it matters who you travel with. - oh. - what's going on? - oh, darn! - let me help. expedia. here we go. lift and push and push! there... it's up there. oh, boy.

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problem, republicans in the great state of florida have pass ad new bill radically restricting voting rights in florida. the governor that best to sign it. in their haste to get this done shall republicans in florida did not notice that some of the means of voting they're putting

the restrictions on are the exact means of voting that their most loyal republican voters use most frequently. and they're the means of voting that the republican party has been actively promoting to their own voters for decades. in a remarkable new report for the "washington post," amy gardner reports that along the way, republicans tried to exclude the most republican leaning groups, the elderly and military voters from the new voting restrictions that they nevertheless want to apply to everyone else. joining us now, the washington political reporter, it is really nice to have you here. thank you for taking the time tonight. >> glad to be here. thanks, rachel. >> what is the extent of the regret among florida republicans as they realize that these voting restrictions might cut into something that they've work for decades to build support for among their most loyal voters? >> it's pretty extensive.

it's been 40 years in the making. republicans had their first ballot victory in 1988 in the u.s. senate race where the democrat was ahead when everyone went to sleep on election night and the republican won two days later and that has happened over and over again in florida and it is because of this incredible program the republican party has built over those decades to teach elderly voters in particular, also, military voters, how easy it is to vote by mail. to keep coming back at them again and again and reminding they will to do so. there's an amazing story that i wrote about in the story this morning where a democratic consultant, steve shale, the guy who ran obama's campaign in 2008 in florida, where every time president trump tweeted last year about how crooked absentee balloting is, he would get a text from a republican operative buddy, you know, sending him like an eye roll emoji or like, special characters meaning swear

words because they were so upset at the damage that president trump was doing to this method of voting that was so important to the republican party. i don't think we know how it will affect things going forward. we had this extraordinary year where president trump was on the ballot and he's extraordinary as a candidate, and where we had a pandemic, which was of course extraordinary. but if things snap back to the mean where more republicans vote by mail than democrats in a place like florida, then these new provisions in the law could curtail that party more. >> do they have options? short of convincing governor desantis to not sign the bill, trying to start over again to amend the bill, to try to protect the voting that the voters like so much, do they have any options? or is this essentially baked and they have to now just figure out how to when i have the consequences? >> it is definitely baked. ron desantis went on fox news

after the bill passed and that of course i'm going to sign the bill into law. i think the passage of the bill reflects the bind that lots of republicans and lots of state houses are in around the country, that they are under tremendous pressure to show their loyalty to president trump and to say the election was stolen even though many of them privately believe joe biden won the election fairly. so there is a huge pressure to pass these laws that in a lot of cases, both republicans and democrats describe as a solution without a problem. states like no ready where even desantis widely hailed the 2020 election as the gold standard for the election administration in america. so i don't think there's regret about doing what they felt they had to do bypassing the bill. they felt they had to to please mr. constituents and the audience of one, meaning president trump. but going forward there will be strategies to make sure they

continue or i crease the education for their vote orders how to vote by mail and navigate these new rules. i think you will see a lot of political consultants who make a lot of money in the next couple of cycles. they'll be sending a lot of mail telling them how to use the new laws. >> even in the case of a sort of political goal needed, there will be ways this will be turned into at least a money making opportunity. "washington post" national political reporter, thank you so much for great reporting on this great and colorful reporting on this. thanks for helping us understand it tonight. >> thank you. >> all right. we've got more ahead of us. stay with us. we've got more ahead of us stay with us the bowls are back. applebee's irresist-a-bowls all just $8.99. front desk. yes, hello... i'm so... please hold. ♪♪

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herd immunity. the point is, that by the end of the -- right now, every single person 16 years or older doesn't have to wait in line, can show up and get a vaccination now. my plea to everyone, get vaccinated now. please. >> president biden in portsmouth, virginia, with a question about herd immunity. it is when enough members of a population are immunized against a virus that the virus basically can't make inroads. it can't spread. in community any longer. resist dlangs in the community is so high, the virus has nowhere to go so it stops spreading and that is how it goes away. the way you get to herd immunity safely is through vaccines. since our country's vaccination campaign launched in december, health officials and journalists have been asking, how fast we need to vaccinate americans to

reach herd immunity here. how many people need to get vaccinated in order to reach herd immune? will we reach herd immune? right now, more than 145 million americans have had at least one dose of the vaccine. that's 56% of the adult week but the rate of vaccinating adults is slowing as this graph shows. we had a daily average of more than 3 million doses a day as of last month, now the daily average is just over 2 million doses a day. and then "the new york times" put up this little nightmare of a headline today quote reaching herd immunity is unlikely in the u.s. experts now believe. the headline is fairly crushing i will admit but the point of the article and the text of it, the ideas behind are more interesting. quote, daily vaccination rates are slipping. there is wide spread consensus among scientists and public health experts the herd immunity threshold is not obtainable in

the foreseeable future and perhaps not ever. instead, though, they are coming to the conclusion rather than making a long promised exit, the virus will most likely become a manageable threat that will continue to circulate the united states for years to come still causing hospitalizations and deaths but in much smaller numbers. how much smaller is uncertain and depends in part on how much of the nation and the world becomes vaccinated and how the coronavirus evolves. joining us now is the reporter who wrote that article, "new york times" since and global health reporter. thank you for being here. appreciate your time. >> thanks very much for having me. >> i know that reporters don't always write the headlines that appear on their stories. when you saw your story appear in print on "the new york times" website, did you know you would ruin a lot of people's days and it was going to feel like nightmare news for a lot of people? >> i was hoping people would read beyond the headline to be

honest. i had a conversation with my editor about that headline and what we decided is that it's true there is a lot more subtlety and i'm glad you think the rest of the article was interesting but what my editor felt is what is new here is we're hearing for the first time we may not reach herd immunity and that is a big deal. >> what is the difference between herd immunity and a manageable level of infection in the country? >> i mean, in someways that's just degrees of difference. herd immunity is a continuation. right now we may be at 60% of the population is immune one way or another. either because they were infected with covid or because they are vaccinated, and we may need to get to 80, 85% to get that herd immunity threshold but that doesn't mean that that's just zero or 100. all along the way, the more people we vaccinate, the fewer

hospitalizations and deaths we will see and that's really what we're trying to get to here. >> i was struck by one of the experts who you spoke to who expressed that in pretty blunt terms saying even when we were hoping for herd immunity, it was never going to be you got there and raised the flag and it's over and you never thought of it again. it was always something we and publish health officials and public health officials had to keep an eye on. a circulating virus that's proven its ability to kill populations whole sale and our ability to fight it off will always depend on some sort of race against the virus' efforts to mutate away from our mitigation efforts. it was sort of always going to be a push me, pull you contest. >> it was always going to be that and that's because we were never going to have 100% protection, at least not in the foreseeable future. if you think about something like measles, the u.s. has a huge number of people protected

from that. we actually do have herd immunity for that as a nation, but as you know, in new york, we've had outbreaks in the orthodox jewish community and have outbreaks now and then. this is basically like that except there are a lot more people that can get sick. the outbreaks will be bigger and lead to hospitalizations and deaths along the way. >> tell me about how the other news, i know you were part of the reporting team at the "new york times" today that reported pfizer is likely -- the fda is likely to approve the pfizer vaccine for kids 12 to 15. it's approved for 16 and up now. that prospect of being able to vaccinate younger teenagers and kids and presumably with the clinical trials underway now, kids younger than that, does that affect the math at all, the projections in terms of how much of the country will be immune and how many communities will be susceptible to the outbreaks you

described? >> well, i think we definite he need as many kids as we can to get vaccinated because kids under 18 are about 23% of the population. so if we don't vaccinate kids, there is just no chance in ever getting herd immunity but with all of them getting vaccinated, we still probably won't get there is what the experts are saying. we're expecting 12 to 15-year-olds to be able to get it next week and once they get vaccinated, we'll hear results from younger kids but we need all of the children to really get vaccinated to get closer to herd immunity. >> "new york times" science and global health reporter. thank you for your time and your clarity tonight. as i said, the headline is a scary thing, the ideas behind it are more nuance and the task at hand is the same. the more americans get vaccinated, the quicker and better we'll be. thank you. >> tankthanks for having me.

>> we'll be right back. kthanks . >> we'll be right back so when their windshield got a chip, they wanted it fixed fast. they drove to safelite autoglass for a guaranteed, same-day, in-shop repair. we repaired the chip before it could crack. and with their insurance, it was no cost to them. >> woman: really? >> tech: that's service you can trust, when you need it most. ♪ pop rock music ♪ >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ cal: our confident forever plan is possible with a cfp® professional. a cfp® professional can help you build a complete financial plan. visit letsmakeaplan.org to find your cfp® professional. ♪♪

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one thing to watch for in tomorrow's news, we're likely to have an fda approval by the end of this week for kids 12 and up to get the pfizer vaccine. that's big news. also, tomorrow, the travel ban goes into effect between the u.s. and india. this is in the midst of india's terrible overwhelming covid crisis right now. there is a travel ban between the u.s. and india that will go into effect tomorrow. there's a lot of important news going on on covid. we learned president biden is due to speak on covid specifically tomorrow at 2:30 eastern so i think it's worth having your antenna out tomorrow given all of the quickly developing news on that front. we'll see you again tomorrow night. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. >> i need your advice, the way to handle a particular guest.