here. and looking ahead to this decision which is an incredibly significant one whether or not former president trump is going to be able to get back on the social media platforms, let's all remember this is ultimately a business decision for facebook. they may have set up this board, but mark zuckerberg still runs the show and is accountable for whatever happens. thank you for getting up way too early with uz on this wednesday morning. don't go anywhere, "morning joe" starts right now. dr. fauci served as an adviser to seven different presidents of the united states. pay attention to the difference in his demeanor compared to working for trump and joe biden. >> i want to thank for being here and update you on the progress we made after a week of extraordinary mobilization. >> thank you very much. i'm going to spend a couple of minutes just summarizing the status of where we are. >> masks, swabs, sanitizers, ventilators and everything else.

>> really depends on what you mean by normality. >> right. i want you to define it. >> exactly the way --. [ laughter ]. >> i'll be back tomorrow. we'll probably do this again. if i might, i might like to ask vice president pence to take over. >> you feel like you're back to normal? >> i think so. >> grouchy fauci just like that. >> that's so cute. good morning, welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, may 5th. we have former chair of the republican national committee, now an msnbc political analyst, michael steele. and white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. we have to get to this morning. including house minority leader kevin mccarthy caught on a hot mic setting the stage for congresswoman liz cheney's ouster from republican

leadership. president biden sets an ambitious new goal for vaccinating americans against covid-19. the director of the cdc dr. rochelle walensky will be our guest this morning. but first, a federal judge blasted former attorney general bill barr for his handling of the mueller investigation. accusing him of misleading her and congress in a decision released last night, judge amy jackson called barr disingenuous and ordered the justice department to release the redacted portions of a march 2019 memo from doj lawyers that barr said advised him not to charge trump with obstruction. the justice department at the time with held the full memo from a watchdog group arguing that it contained privileged, legal advice and internal deliberations of an undecided case. however, judge jackson says her

review of the case shows it was more legal strategy than advice and that the decision not to charge had already been made. jackson allegation criticized four-page summary of the mueller report that barr provided to congress which trumpb then used to declare he was exonerated. in the letter barr claimed that the special counsel investigation did not support charges of obstruction that he came to that conclusion based on the advice contained in the memo. but according to the judge, emails show barr's letter to congress and the memo were, quote, written by the very same people at the very same time. she adds, quote, the emails show not only that the authors and the recipients of the memorandum are working hand in hand to craft the advice, but that the letter to congress is the priority and it is getting completed first. >> so, willie, you know, the

federal judge said what many of us assumed from the beginning, that the attorney general of the united states was not playing attorney general, was not doing his job as attorney general. he was engaged instead in crisis management, in spin, in being donald trump's pr agent, in trying to blunt the impact of the mueller report. and in so doing said in effect that bill barr, the attorney general of the united states, lied to congress. lied to the american people. and lied to the federal courts about the mueller report and the findings in the mueller report and about the, quote, decision as to whether donald trump would be charged with obstruction of justice. of course all of the trump hacks

immediately took bill barr's lies as the gospel and continued. and continued today saying, oh, the mueller report was much to do about nothing. it was a russian hoax. they didn't find that he committed obstruction of justice when, in fact, mueller gave ten examples of that. >> yeah. mueller laid out chapter and verse all of the moments where he did, in fact, donald trump obstruct justice. wasn't his job to recommend those charges against the president of the united states and because he did not, former attorney general barr stepped into that void and said, well, i've read the mueller report before anybody else has, read it very quickly, by the way. here is my four page summary for congress and it's my judgment the president should not be prosecuted based on the findings of this report. that's what judge jackson said last night. let's bring in michael schmidt, msnbc national security analyst, nbc news correspondent covering national security intelligence,

ken delanie is also with us. michael, this was two nights ago that judge jackson handed down this decision. walk us through a little bit of what's behind it, what was she looking into and what did she say specifically about attorney general barr? >> she's looking into whether a document about the obstruction decisions should be released. but that is sort of like a side show to what she is really doing or getting at or the most important thing about this. and that is her basically putting herself out there and criticizing the former attorney general, as you guys were laying out, for how he handled the end of the mueller investigation. i was even going back just now looking at barr's statements when he holds this press conference right even as the report is being released. he's going to these great lengths to try to help the president, as joe was saying, as

essentially his press agent, saying things about how trump had cooperated so much with the mueller investigation and that they had handed over everything. donald trump refused to meet with the mueller investigators. he refused to sit and answer basic questions about them even though he was president of the united states. but barr was painting this picture of a white house that had opened up its doors and allowedunfettered access to whatever they wanted or needed and that there was no piece of information that mueller's investigators could not get. and the problem about the trump era, there was so much going on it was hard to keep track of and document everything as it was going. we did do this at the time, but to go back and look at those statements and see the attorney general essentially, acting as the president's defense lawyer, as early as april of 2019, you can see the path that trump was

on being enabled by the justice department in what he did. remember, this was before he was impeached the first time. so, you know, the judge, one of three judges in washington, that's gone to this sort of extreme measure of criticizing barr publicly for how he handled these politically sensitive investigations. >> and ken delainian, the judge accuses bill barr and his department of being disingenuous to this court with respect to the decision making process that should be shielded by the deliberative process privilege. and again, says that in so doing they misled the court, they misled congress and misled the american people. >> yeah, that's right, joe. as you pointed out earlier, disingenuous is a polite lawyer word for lying. and -- >> right.

>> that's what she said both about their conduct in this freedom of information lawsuit and about barr's conduct in issuing this summary. as a side note, i would say that this ruling shows how broken the freedom of information law is because lawyers claim this privilege all the time, even when it's not merited. but to your earlier point about barr acting as trump's press agent, there's a line in here judge berman jackson says that just really struck me about the office of attorney general and the office of deputy attorney general, that was rod rosenstein. she said when they were preparing this memo, the two offices were working in tandem to create a narrative to cast the president in the most positive light possible. so that's what was going on here. they were all scrambling to take this mueller report, which as she pointed out, barr barely had time to skim at this point, and cast it in the most favorable light possible for the president. now, i have to say, as andrew

weissman pointed out, former mueller prosecutor andrew weissman, in his own book, he criticized the mueller investigation for not only did they not charge trump with obstruction of justice, remember, mueller made this sort of strange decision that he didn't even feel that he could characterize the evidence and say what other prosecutors said which was, hey, in a normal case, if this wasn't the president, there was plenty of evidence to charge the president with obstruction of justice. mueller didn't do that and he opened the door in some sense for barr to take the action he did. history will judge whether that was a wise decision on mueller's a part. he thought he was following the ethics and the law of what he was tasked to do, but this judge really hammering barr over the idea that he quickly concluded that the president didn't obstruct justice, guys. >> and as a reminder, this is what was actually in the mueller report. it said that trump, quote,

launched public attacks on the investigation and individuals involved. engaged in a series of targeted efforts to control the investigation. attempted to remove the special counsel. sought to have the attorney general sessions unrecuse himself and limit the investigation. sought to prevent public disclosure of information about the meeting between russians and campaign officials. used public forums to attack potential witnesses. praised witnesses who declined to cooperate with the government. >> so willie, just like we had said, i had said a couple -- maybe it was last week to the rhetorical question, why do we keep talking about january 6th? we keep talking about january 6th because there's still people that represent americans. >> working in the capitol that was stormed. >> working in the capitol who actually were part of the process of trying to overturn

the vote and encouraging those people to come in and now whitewashing those events. why is this relevant? well, because, of course, pundits and politicians may have aracterized bill barr's sleazy actions as being just that, as him lying about the mueller report and of course remember mueller made that phone call in telling barr, his people telling barr, that they misrepresented the words. but this is for the books. this is not only for the history books, this is like in the courts now. a federal judge is saying that the attorney general of the united states lied to cover up for a president of the united states in an investigation regarding russian interference. russia hoax? that's what we hear this investigation after it's over, oh, it's just a russian hoax and

point to bill barr. oh, it's a witch hunt. well, actually that's not what the special counsel thought and that's not what the federal court thinks now. >> and that's not what the mueller team thought in real team when the former attorney general stepped out. they thought it was being mischaracterized and the former attorney general is mischaracterizing their year's long study and the report they published. they thought his summary was not representative of his findings and thought he was running interference for the president from the word go and now we're hearing that from a federal judge. thank you for your reporting on this story. let's turn to liz cheney and whether the caucus will push her out of leadership. axios posted audio of house minority leader kevin mccarthy on a hot mic yesterday criticizing cheney ahead of an interview on fox news. here is what mccarthy said off

air versus what he said live on air. >> i think she's got a real problems. i've had it with -- i've had it with her. i've lost confidence. well, someone just has to bring a motion but i assume that will probably take time. >> there's no concern about how she voted on impeachment. that decision has been made. i have heard from members concerned about her ability to carry out the job as conference chair, to carry out the message. i haven't heard members concerned about her vote on impeachment. it's more about the job ability to do and what's our best step forward that we could all work together instead of attacking one another. >> singing a different tune on the air. spokesperson for congresswoman cheney said, quote, this is about whether the republican party is going to perpetuate lies about the 2020 election and attempt to whitewash what happened on january 6th. liz will not do that. that is the issue. joe, so no change from

congresswoman cheney on her position about all of this. she's increasingly on an island here it looks like if you talk to people behind the scenes. she is going to be pushed out of that job as leadership chair in the republican party because she made the statement again that the election of 2020 was not stolen. >> well, you know, mika it's the obi wan kanobi, strike her down and she'll be stronger. "the wall street journal" yesterday in a scathing editorial that we're going to be reading in a little bit saying gop leaders should not have to lie about 2020 to keep their jobs. >> let's read it now. they write in part this, republicans will look foolish or worse to swing voters if they refight 2020 in 2022. they can truthfully say that democrats used lawsuits to exploit the pandemic, to change the election rules in some states.

they can also say democratic judges on the pennsylvania supreme court let democrats get away with it. democrats did a better job of exploiting the pandemic election rules than the gop. but there's no evidence any of this was decisive as mr. trump lost the popular vote in a rout around the electoral college by a similar margin to what he won in 2016. mr. trump lost even as republicans gained 12 seats in the house. the election was close, but not as close as others in american history. republicans should find a way to speak this truth to voters in 2022. and quickly turn to running on an agenda for the future that will check mr. biden and his cradle-to-grave entitlement state, purging liz cheney for honesty would diminish the party. joe, back to our lead story, and how serious it is what this judge has said about the trump

presidency. about the mueller report the president with the help of the attorney general used the mueller report to drum up hate, to foment anger and all led up to january 6th and by the way, took the republican party hostage and they are choosing to stay there. >> i don't understand it. let me bring in michael steele. michael steele is with us. michael, my god, so -- >> mika. >> we got a guy who has -- >> what? >> i a agree with you. >> we have a guy in our first story, he did, he tried to obstruct justice. a major would be in jail right now, a member of congress, everybody knows that, right? but okay. that's the past. he got -- he beat the rep. he had people -- some at "the wall street journal" writing op-eds, running cover for him. so, okay. but that's behind. okay. but they did that. at the time they were gritting their teeth saying, oh, we don't

want to be a part of this, but he's the president. we got to defend him. but here we find ourselves, "the wall street journal" editorial page says, with just a veritable cornucopia to feast on from the democratic presidency that's the most liberal since lbj. i don't know. lbj may even be calvin coolidge compared to this president and what he has already proposed. my god, i would pass out. i would be like james brown on the house floor. like, condemning one huge government over -- >> but they can't. >> after another, after -- i would be falling down and maybe you could put the cape on me and i would get up and throw it off and say, then he wants -- but they can't do that. >> no. >> you know why they can't do that, because they're talking -- i would like to swear now but i know it's early, they're talking about dr. seuss.

they're talking about -- >> they're dumb dumbs. >> mr. potato head. they're talking about liz cheney. they're continuing to lie about the 2020 election when everybody knows they're lying about the 2020 election. i will take a deep breath and let you talk. but just think of this seriously, if there were a conservative there, this is all -- i guarantee you, when i was there, this is all we would be talking about, and we would be on the floor night and day talking about run away government. they instead are talking about a woman with a life time 95% acu rating like me, by the way, who simply telling the truth about the 2020 election. this is madness. >> yeah. not only does she have a 95% aca rating, she has a 95 or 97% rating voting with donald trump. so it's not like she was this

outlier. but mika has given us the image here. liz cheney is the rescuer. she's come and found the hostages. she's saying, come on. follow me out of the building. come on. i've got a way. and they're sitting there going, no, no, no, we want to stay. we like it here. in fact, bad rescuer. bad person trying to save us from ourselves. that's where we are. you're absolutely right, joe. the party instead of taking time to put down on the carpet for the american people what the spending means, what the programs being proposed mean, putting in their alternatives and giving a viable, conservative governing choice to the american people are instead fixated on dr. seuss and kicking the only female in leadership who is more conservative than most of the men who are kicking her out, right? kicking her out of the game. >> yeah. >> and so this is their new reality here. i mean, "the wall street

journal" -- and i appreciate, they sort of give me, hey, guys, this is your play book. this is your play book. and yet and still they refuse to go down that road that will free them of trump. instead you have ted cruz going down to do his version of kevin mccarthy, right? and sit there and have tea and crump ets while the party is burning. so here we are, liz cheney wb the tip of the spear that will be their undoing. they will probably oust her and then they'll elevate a woman who as pelosi noted, one who is more compliant and agreeable to trump and they think they will have won that battle. they won't. >> this picture is just incredible of ted cruz and trump. wow. yeah. kicking the wrong woman who kevin mccarthy, you had it with her, good luck because she's going to run for president at this point and i don't know

where you'll be. let's bring in national political reporter for the new york times elena plot who reports extensively on the gop caucus. elena, you're taking a look at how texas is a microcosm of all that we've been talking about in a new piece for the new york times magazine entitled the gop won it all in text then turned on itself. and you write in part this, as an unassailable citadel of republican electoral power for a generation, and one whose demockfy and geography reflect the united states in miniature, texas is often a leading indicator of political trends in the party. so it is a grim omen for republican leaders that in this state, where the gop achieved what might be described as the best-case scenario for the party's hopes in other states in 2022 mid term elections, the state's prominent republicans are struggling against one another as if they have just gone down in a rout. donald trump's refusal to

acknowledge his loss in 2020 meanwhile has placed his party in the awkward position of denying its own down-ballot successes in many states. this has been particularly striking in texas, where the gop was arguably better positioned than republicans elsewhere to escape his gravitational pull. though it has a reputation, especially among coastal liberals, as a hot bed of fringe politics, the texas republican party has long the ended toward standard issue conseconservatis. joe, where is texas? >> you need to read this new york times magazine piece. as you read it, you see that you had greg abbott, a guy as you said was on the texas supreme court for over a decade, was attorney general, was sort of mainstream, was head down, you have him morphing into a

trumpian figure, pulled to the extremes by allen west a guy kicked out of florida politics a decade or two ago and somehow reappeared in texas. and we even get that maddening scene at the end, that scene of madness at the end where allen west is going around talking to people and one guy comes up to him and says, tell me where you want me to start shooting. i'll stack the bodies right up. that's how extreme so many of them have become regarding this, quote, stolen election. >> yeah. and you know, having covered trump rallies, republican rallies for the past five years now i would say that rally in texas in particular, the first sort of gop gathering i went to post the 2020 election, post january 6th, i've never been in a rally where there was such a sinister edge and undercurrent throughout the whole event,

which i thought was -- pretty striking. i mean, even trump rallies, you know, for everything that would go on, there was still in some ways this sort of joyful ethos, i guess that people were having fun in what they were doing but the anger really is palpable. i think that's why you're seeing kevin mccarthy and liz cheney go head to head in the way they are because kevin mccarthy knows well that his voters back home, so many republican voters at this point, are not ready to give up the lie that the 2020 election was stolen from donald trump. to the extent that i think kevin mccarthy right now wants to just keep quiet, as i said to you and mika recently, just stay still and hope it all evaporates come 2022, i think that's what you're seeing somebody like greg abbott want to do as well, even though, you know, as i report in this piece, texas had every theoretical reason to be able to move on from this president to

move on from 2020. they ran ahead of him in almost any statewide office without any consequence. house republicans did rit large picking up 12 seats. have the kind of results for republicans that you did in texas, this sort of mandate they were able to establish electorally speaking and still where they are right now with, quote unquote, voter fraurksd i do think it's a grim omen for the future. >> you know, what is so telling about your piece, and it reminded me -- again, you have people talking to the party chairman saying, you know, they're going to target people, shoot them and stack bodies, you know, people have been saying crazy things. i got people in my hundreds of town hall meetings over six, seven years. say crazy things to me. but what always happens is you go over and, no, no, we're not going to do that. i'll tell you what we're going to do, we'll beat them at the

ballot box. you go talk to your neighbor, talk to your neighbor. that's how it's done. there's been extremism in politics forever. but you go over to them, you sit there, you say, no, you're not going to even talk that way. we're going to win. we're going to beat them at the ballot box. and that worked for me. that's worked for a lot of politicians in the past. the portrait you paint is a governor undersiege and at the end even allen west is being overrun by the extremists because he says stop talking about some italian dude that's come to texas and has stolen the election. then you talk about everybody looking and mumbling to each other, oh my god, allen west, he's turning a blind eye to it, too. they turned the party over to extremists and they just don't seem to understand that at the

end, they are the ones that become consumed as well. >> i could not agree more with that analysis. it's precisely why when i saw people in the audience mumbling to each other when allen west dare say, did so jokingly, but as you paraphrased it, no more conspiracy theories, try to win at the ballot box, and there was just this very real sense in the room that that was not okay to say. and this is something as a reporter the past few years i always found it curious when republican members would get visibly anger or annoyed when ever you would ask them about trump's tweets because the line was always his tweets don't matter. his actions matter. well, if you covered any congressional campaign ever in red districts and talked to voters, they weren't just tweets. voters internalized those things over time.

when they have the tas sid endorsement, that continues to build and build why again the staying still strategy that republicans have been relying on vis-a-vis trump since 2016, they think the extremism will also stay still come 2022, i mean, every day the past four months alone has bourn out that's not true. >> it's quaint to think back the days after donald trump left office in late january, there was discussion among republicans and among political analysts of whether or not the party was going to move away from donald trump and forge a new path. well, most of them have been down to mar-a-lago for dinner and now most of them want to nudge out liz cheney because she is telling the truth about what happened in that election. they're making explicit statement right now that says, if you tell the truth about 2020, you will lose your job. meanwhile the guy you cover, president biden, is trying to work with many of these republicans who say he's not even the fairly elected

president, whether they believe that or not or just staying it to say close to donald trump, outloud, they're expressing this sentiment we don't think he's the fairly elected president. >> which makes the white house's job extraordinarily difficult. yes, republicans have only moved closer to donald trump on the whole since january 6th, since january 20th, when he left office. yes, that photo of ted cruz having dinner with him at mar-a-lago sort of symbolizes it. now we have word that liz cheney hold at the leadership position is that much more and steve scalise is working to oust her from that post. seems like her moments are indeed numbered. we have president trump sort of former president trump, sort of reasserting himself more on to the stage, too. he made some headlines yesterday when his website launched and it was building a new social media platform which looks a lot like a blog and they said his aides

put back, no, no, no the social media outlet will come later. this is just a place to put some links. but we are going to hear from facebook today. and if facebook does allow -- if facebook does allow the former president to get back on there, that is absolutely going to expand his reach. and as much as he is associated right with twitter, facebook is where he made a lot of his money. that's where he raised his campaign money. certainly if he's aloud back on facebook, that will increase his reach as well. look, we hear from the current president, who doesn't have a blog, to try to reach out to republicans to suggest that he wants to work with them that they understand how difficult this is going to be because any republican right now seen as willing to work with the white house on more than any issue is castigated by the party as a trader when they want to say no to everything. so far this white house can move forward on its own merits, can do it on party vote, likely reconciliation for the

infrastructure jobs package, too. at a certain point that's going to run out and gridlock returns. the question is who do voters judge more harshly. >> when we were washington last week, it was sad, a republican told me most republican members are afraid to be seen in public having dinner with a democrat. >> that's pathetic. >> it is so sad and pathetic. >> thank you so much for your reporting. we're going to return to this and also the revelations validating the mueller report. just past the top of the hour, we want to get to some of this morning's business headlines with cnbc's dominic chu. you have news on comments made by treasury secretary janet yellen. >> yeah, mika, joe, willie, when the treasury secretary janet yellen gave traders and informsers a bit of a scare, it was because she mentioned inflation. she said that interest rates may have to rise to help slow down an economy that keeps heating up and it could grow even faster given trillions of dollars worth of government spending. now, she made those comments during economic forum put on by

the atlantic but then later on in the day the secretary walked back some of those comments during another event put on by "the wall street journal." she said, quote, it's not something i'm predicting or recommending referring to the higher interest rates and, quote, anybody appreciates the independence of the fed i think that person is me, of course, the former chairperson of the federal reserve bank as well. now, elsewhere on the political front, you guys were just talking ability, former president donald trump will learn his fate on facebook later on this morning on or about 9:00 a.m. eastern time. that's when we expect to hear an oversight board at the social media giant announce its decision on whether trump can have his facebook account back and reinstated or whether his account remains indefinitely suspended. his accounts across many social media platforms, of course, yes, disabled and suspended in the wake of capitol riots back on january 6th. this is interesting because facebook's oversight board is

seen as a somewhat independent and many ways type organization, but the board is still organized by facebook. that board has ruled on nine different occasions by the way so far. it's tended to air more on the side of freedom of expression. keep an eye on that. covid vaccine demand will be more robust in the coming months and years despite the slow down here in the u.s. pharmaceutical giant pfizer reported results yesterday that topped expectations helped along by, get this, $3.5 billion worth of sales of the covid vaccine it made with german partner biontech. pfizer says it expects to sell $26 billion worth of vaccine doses over the course of this full year. a lot more than the 15 billion it thought before, guys. >> incredible. >> cnbc's dominic chu. thank you very, very much. when we're looking at this facebook decision, michael steele, why in the world would facebook or twitter allow a guy back on their platforms who

continues to lie about the election being rigged? every time he has a microphone, every time he puts out a statement, every time he communicates he is actively spreading disinformation that undermines american democracy, that runs against their own standards. why do you let that guy back on your platform if a he's doing is using his platform right now, the lie about this fraud about widespread election fraud? >> that for me, joe, will be the critical piece in this decision. if they decide to give him this platform back, they have to explain an answer to that point, to that question because otherwise it makes no sense. it's not like, you know, donald trump is some how repentant in what he said about the 2020 election and what he said about january 6th. he isn't. he has made it his cause celebre

to continue to emphasize these things. so what do you think he's going to do when you give him this platform back? not only will he exacerbate the tensions in this country around the questions of january 6th in the election, which by the way there are no questions. it was very obvious because we saw what happened. but the reality of it is he will then use that platform to continue to raise the money he wants, which is the most critical thing for him as well as stirring up that pot with a lot of his supporters who are already bought into the crazy idea that donald trump won the election. where do they go? they go deeper into that rabbit hole and facebook becomes the platform that allows them to do that. so, this is going to be a very interesting 9:00 hour should they decide to give him this platform back. >> just really quickly i'm looking at the members of the facebook board but also sort of the benchmarks that they're looking for when they're making

decisions like this. the voice, the authenticity of that voice, we want to make sure the content people are seeing on facebook is authentic. safety, we're committed to making facebook a safe place. privacy and dignity. so, they'll be looking at some core values and seeing if donald trump applies to them? >> but if you look at the safety piece of it, of course we just had a report last week that facebook, because of donald trump, facebook allowed the january 6th insurgency to gain steam. >> we'll continue to make facebook a safe place, expression that threatens people, has the potential to intimidate, exclude or silence others isn't allowed on facebook. >> well, a report shows that again because of the lies of donald trump and his supporters and because they were able to use facebook, january 6th, riots with the trump terrorist actually gained steam. >> authenticity. we want to make sure the content people are seeing on facebook is

authentic. we believe that authenticity creates a better environment for sharing and that's why we don't want people using facebook to misrepresent who they are. or what they're doing. still ahead on "morning joe," in the push to get americans vaccinated against the coronavirus, pfizer will seek approval to give doses to children. we'll talk to cdc director rochelle walensky about that. plus, senator elizabeth warren will be our guest. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. you're strong. you power through chronic migraine - 15 or more headache days a month, ...each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. so, if you haven't tried botox® for your chronic migraine, ...check with your doctor if botox® is right for you, and if samples are available. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing,

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438829. 438829. >> i'm not a numbers guy. >> i'm definitely not. no. that's fine. let's bring in white house editor for politico sam stein and white house correspondent for pbs news hour and msnbc contributor, yamiche alcindor. yamiche was named the new moderator of pbs public affairs show "washington week." congratulations. >> that is great news. congratulations. >> thank you. >> so, really quickly, jonathan lemire, great, great night for the red sox last night, of course. the yankees have been playing with us all along a cat and mouse game. they're on a 43-game win streak. they're going to overtake us by the middle of may. probably end up 15, 20 games behind them. but you know that. but the bigger news, of course, is that back huskies lost, i'm not one to call out 9-year-olds,

your son pitched against the guy lord perry of 9-year-olds. the ball was doctored, willie. foreign substances all over it. it was an ugly, ugly mess. >> the kid, i don't want to, you know, cast aspersions, but there was a 9-year-old who was throwing curveballs and kept going to the tip of his cap for some reason to put something, i don't know if it was pine tar or vaseline, it's unclear. yes, the mighty huskies did lose last night. but they're back out there tonight weather permitting. thank you for that, joe. but, yes, in terms of other baseball teams, the red sox, they managed to scrape together, scratch together a win last night. >> just barely. >> but there's a freight train comes on the tracks behind us. a freight train. a freight train. the surging new york yankees powered by their $3 trillion payroll on our heels and soon to obliterate all in their path.

>> it's over. straight out after a bruce springsteen song i'm on fire. here come the yankees, willie. here come the yankees. it's going to be ugly. the other new york team last night i thought we were going to have an amazing game last night. degrom versus the cardinals. game got cancelled. even before that, degrom got scratched. yesterday he is basically the right-handed sandy koufax of our time. that's huge. so exciting. i think we should all collectively stop, get our kids in front of tv sets and when degrom pitches, watch because this kid is one for the ages. >> he is. he's one of the best of all time. just change the channel when the mets' hitters come up. that's not good for young children to be exposed to. you don't want to see that. you mentioned gay lord perry. joe nicco threw a power sander up in the air and put his hands up. that, that is how you cheat

right there. the yankees, the second place new york yankees, i know you don't love the yankees, but the fans did a service to the nation last night. only about 10,500 fans there, that was a sellout crowd because of restrictions but it sounded like a full sellout the way they booed the houston astros. it was truly a beautiful thing. then they got the win, 7-3. that had to please you at least. >> america thanks the new york yankee fans. i am reminded when you're talking about pitchers cheating, again, we talked about it before, but i mean, read earl weaver's obituary sometime. top of his obituary he walked out with a mic on and said to his pitcher bases loaded, in trouble, kid, if you know how to cheat, do it now. that was the lead of his obituary. that's a life well lived. >> just one of many for earl weaver. let's turn back to the news. president biden is setting new vaccination goal to deliver at

least one shot to 70% of adult americans by july 4th. this comes as demand for vaccines has dropped nationwide, with some states leaving more than half of their available doses unordered. according to the associated press, biden's goal equates to delivering at least the first shot to 181 million adults and fully vaccinated 160 million people. so far more than 56% of american adults have received at least one dose of a covid-19 vaccine and nearly 105 million americans are fully vaccinated. white house officials privately acknowledge a steep challenge ahead. president biden remained optimistic yesterday. >> the light at the end of the tunnel is actually growing brighter and brighter. so americans have sacrificed and served to make this progress possible, showing the best of who we are as a people. we need you. we need you to bring it home. get vaccinated.

in two months let's celebrate our independence as a nation and our independence from this virus. we can do this. we will do this. >> so yamiche, we will have dr. walensky the head of the cdc on in a few minutes. there's a sense as we talk to public health officials, we plateaued. all the people who rushed out and wanted the vaccine have the first shot of the vaccine and now there's this real effort to get everyone else there or at least to get to the 70% plateau. we have seen in the first three months of this administration the biden administration sort of setting a bar and exceeding it. sometimes setting a low bar so they can't exceed it. it looks like that's what they're trying to do here. so hopeful they can get to 70% to get us close to herd immunity in this country. >> that's right, willie. thank you so much for that warm welcome. i'm so excited to be the next host of "washington week." it's great to be on this morning with what i consider to be my tv

family here. >> we're thrilled for you, yamiche. congratulations. >> thank you. when it comes to this idea of president biden really leaning in to his response to the coronavirus pandemic, that's where they see this as really being critical to the success of democrats and critical to the success of the president and the country, you know, of course, juxtapose that what's going on in the republican party and them trying to really see liz cheney as her sin being telling the truth. in this case what you have is the president saying, i'm going to focus on kids. i'm going to focus on adults who maybe just weren't paying attention and know that they can now get the vaccine and i'm going to focus on a lot of adults who are still hes tent and people who are still wondering whether or not this vaccine is safe. there's a lot of work to be done there and also a lot of work when i talk to white house officials on equity, seeing that the vaccine rate among african-americans, among latinos, that that rate is not as high as among white americans. there are officials who say that some of that, of course, is

hesitancy. some of that also is still this issue of access because the vehicle that the biden administration is using to fight the pandemic is a vehicle that is still steeped in systemic racism because we have a healthcare system that has not served americans equally. the white house is really banking on this idea if they set these goals, they meet these goals and the american people will also trust them with these other big bills they're trying to get passed because their going to be able to say, look what we were able to do for you and for the country while the republicans were in some ways imploding and still trying to litigate the 2020 election. >> as you say, there's a big chunk of the country who says i'm not going to get it, but there are still problems of access, people who want it and can't get to it. so we know they're working on that inside the administration. speaking of that big legislation still out there, sam stein, on infrastructure, we sort of haven't talked about it much in the last few days, but it still looms. what is happening there? are they still talking behind the scenes to republicans who counteroffered and came in low, too low for the biden

administration, what's going to happen here? are we headed for reconciliation? >> well, first of all, congrats to yamiche. what an incredible honor. secondly, congrats to the yankees. i rooted for them last night which is -- felt weird. but i did it. as for infrastructure, yeah, i think the white house -- obviously they're still working with senators of both parties in this case, much more open appetite for going the bipartisan route than it was for the covid relief package and a lot more runway to work with. if you remember the covid relief package was pushed by the white house explicitly as an emergency measure, something that didn't allow for a lengthy set of bipartisan negotiations. they had the ten republican senators over, but that was more or less it. in this case, there's a sense inside the administration that they are going to need to cobble together some republican votes potentially or at least make a real faith -- good-faith effort to do so.

that could be because they want to make sure they have 60 pass and not go the reconciliation route. we have already seen some democrats balk a little bit at not paying for the totality of it. so it's not going to deficit finance it appears. yeah, they have to find the votes. the time frame is critical here, right if this drags over the summer and joe knows this any legislative effort that drags over the summer risks losing support. the tea partys of the early obama years. you let something hang throughout, become politically vulnerable. the white house knows this. they do want to move it prior to july 4th. but that's, you know, when you look at it from where we are right now, there hasn't been much in the way of progress the last couple weeks. in terms of negotiations. so time is of the essence. >> so jonathan lemire, there does come a point as there was with the covid relief package where the white house says, hey, republicans, we tried. we offered. we brought you into the oval office, negotiated. we're not waiting anymore. we have to lock up joe manchin and kyrsten sinema and plow

through with reconciliation. >> that's precisely right, willie. the timetable they're laying out is they really want to have this bill in nearly finished form, closer to memorial day. that's what senior aides told me in recent days. that's not that far away, 4, 4.5 weeks away. that will be a challenge. yamiche, congrats again. i want to go back to you on their outreach. we know the president and the senior staff working the phones this week with republicans and democrats alike to. the senate and house leadership are coming to the white house next week in what we expect a week full of meetings, republicans and democrats, coming to the oval office, meeting with the president. what are you hearing in terms of what their pitch is, both to republicans to try to get them on board and we know part of it is saying, hey, your voters like this. but also to the democrats, like man chin and kyrsten sinema.

>> that's a great question. thank you for that con congratulationlations. what the white house pitch is saying, one what you just said, that these bills and when you look at it as a whole, the $6 trillion worth of spending they want to do, the president wants to do on of course, covid relief bill that has been passed as well as infrastructure that he's trying to get passed, this is really something when you look at pols and look at local republicans and city leaders and state leaders, they want this to happen. so, the question really is how are we going to pay for it? and their pitch to republicans is we're open to compromise on that part. they understand that republicans are loathe to roll back the 2017 tax cuts were a signature success they see as the former president, president trump. they're really trying to talk to them about whether or not they can really work with those numbers to try to come up with a way for republicans to be able to go back to their districts and say, yes, we did sign up on this and we did sign up and agree on this but we also got some of the compromises that we

want. the other thing is, of course, the big question here is joe manchin who continued to be a big question because this is what happens when you have a close senate. you already see when it comes to the corporate tax rate, though, biden white house said they wanted to raise to 28%. joe manchin said 25%. as soon as i started talking to white house officials they were saying, hey, 25% is what we have to do, 26%, that's what we'll do. you've heard that over and over again from people both -- at least for me, on the record as well as on background saying let's have these negotiations. but the other thing you're hearing is that memorial day deadline. saying if we cannot do this with republicans and we know that there's ticking time in terms of the power that democrats have, then they will go it alone. they're willing to do that. i want to also say when you talk about all this, i'm talking to you from st. louis, where so many people that i'm meeting on the street are still vaccine hesitant and understand the biden's administration pitch is we have a country needs to understand we're the middle of a

pandemic, they can't be complacent, they really need this to happen. and that is something that i think they're also going to be talking to people. i talked to so many people here who say i'm not getting the vaccine. i don't want to do that. doesn't seem safe to me. i don't want the government tracking me and doing all sorts of conspiracy theories. so the biden white house is also talking to republicans and saying, help us here. a lot of these people who don't want to take this vaccine they're your voters. as we know the gop and gop men in particular are the most vaccine hesitant group in this country. >> yamiche alcindor and sam stein, thank you both for being on this morning. coming up, the director of the cdc rochelle walensky joins us. plus, thomas freedman with his latest piece entitled "trump's big lie devoured the gop and now eyes our democracy." "morning joe" is coming right back. right back ♪ ♪ we made usaa insurance for veterans like martin. when a hailstorm hit, he needed his insurance to get it done right, right away.

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there's no concern about how

she voted on impeachment. that decision has been made. i have heard from members concerned about her ability to carry out the job as conference chair, to carry out the message. i haven't heard members concerned about her vote on impeachment. more concerned about the job ability to do and what's our best step forward that we could all work together instead of attacking one another. >> i think she's got real problems. i've had it with -- i've had it with her. you know, i've lost confidence. well, someone just has to bring a motion but i assume that will probably take place. >> house minority leader caught on a hot mic yesterday before his appearance on fox news. a spokesperson for congresswoman cheney put out a statement after mccarthy's interview saying, this is about whether the republican party is going to perpetuate lies about the 2020 election and attempt to whitewash what happened on january 6th.

>> and -- >> liz will not do that. that is the issue. >> and willie, first of all, kevin mccarthy knew, as he was mic'd up for a tv hit, that what he was going to say was going to get out. so, i mean, he's not that stupid, first of all. also, you wonder if he's started to do this since he's started to catch heat from fox hosts who have gone after him for such sins against humanity as living with frank lunts and other perceived sins against trumpism. but you look through all of this and as "the wall street journal" said, liz cheney is being attacked, liz cheney is being attacked by donald trump. in fact, attacked four times. so this whole thing about why is liz cheney always bringing up donald trump? why is she perpetuating this fight? "wall street journal" editorial page said trump is obsessed with

her. trump is always putting out statements attacking her. kevin should talk to trump and tell him to lay low. but of course, he'll never do that because he's scared of donald trump. >> it's pretty clear where this is heading at this point. punch bowl news is just now reporting that congressman steve scalise is going to back the republican congresswoman from new york to be the next gop leadership chair. it's moving in that direction. liz cheney is going to lose her job and, joe, defining moments don't get more clear than this. what the republican party is saying right now is that the one or two people who are saying what's true about the 2020 election that joe biden was elected fairly and is president of the united states, that they, that they are the ones who lose their jobs. they are the ones who lose their power. they are the ones who are pushed out to the margins and the people who perpetuaing this lie will be pushed front and center as the faces of the republican party. >> if you tell the truth, and

republican leadership you get kicked out. and as "the wall street journal" editorial page said, mika you shouldn't have to lie about the 2020 election to keep a spot in the gop leadership. but apparently you do. and all i can say for the republicans in the house, lots of luck with that. >> you heard kevin mccarthy saying on camera he's concerned that cheney can't carry out the message. so what message is it that elise stefan nick could be carrying, january 6th needed to happen, it was a good thing that perhaps the election was a lie? i mean, come on. are you kidding me? they're going to find someone so incompetent they can lie for the entire party and continue to destroy it? fantastic. >> i don't think it's incompetence. they're just looking for anybody -- >> well, there's a different word. >> just anybody that will lie,

continue to lie, about -- >> dishonest. >> on january 6th and also what happened in the 2020 election. >> so congresswoman cheney is standing her ground. it's pretty simple, refusing to repeat donald trump's lie, that the 2020 election was stolen. and the attempts to whitewash the january 6th assault on the capitol by a pro-trump mob. she's calling for her party to expunge the hate and vitriol infecting the gop. in other words, this -- >> hang mike pence. hang mike pence. hang mike pence. >> kill him. kill him. >> i knew those were people that love this country, that truly respect law enforcement, would never do anything to break a law. so i wasn't concerned. >> how many people did lose

their lives in those riots? how many police officers really were injured? i never felt threatened. i didn't foresee this. had the tables been turned, that would have been tens or hundreds of thousands of biden supporters, i would be more concerned about security. the group of people that supported trump the hundreds of thousands of people that attend those trump rallies, those are people that love this country. that never would have done what happened on january 6th, which is why i was not concerned. the fact of the matter is this didn't seem like an armed insurrection to me. if that was a planned armed insurrection, man, you are really a bunch of idiots. >> it was zero threat right from the start. it was zero threat. some of them went in and they're hugging and kissing the police and the guards. you know, they had great relationships. >> it's been very difficult seeing elected officials and other individuals kind of

whitewash the events of that day or down play what happened. some of the terminology that was used, like hugs and kisses, and very fine people, very different from what i experienced. a group of individuals that were trying to kill me to accomplish their goal. i experienced the most brutal, savage hand to hand combat of my entire life. i mean, i felt like they were trying to kill me. >> it was one of the three times that day i thought, well, this might be it. you know, this might be the end for me. >> it was an honor and privilege to be there and shut down those people that day. >> i'm willing to do it as many times as needed. >> to call that an armed insurrection, it was the most pitiful armed insurrection anybody could possibly imagine. the one guy in the senate chambers there had plastic wrist ties. you know, what he expected to do, literally go up to mike pence and capture him? >> also criticized because i

made the comment that on january 6th i never felt threatened. because i didn't. >> there were, by the way, people looking for mike pence after donald trump criticized mike pence, knowing that mike pension and his family was trapped inside the united states capitol, they were trapped inside the united states capitol, he tweeted something attacking mike pence. and the mob went around chanting hang mike pence. and put a noose outside, maybe just for effect, who knows. but they were seeking mike pence, same way they were a group were trying to get gretchen whitmer to arrest her, citizen arrest her. and kidnap her and try her and kill her. and so, yeah, mika this is for ron johnson, for donald trump, for others who tried to whitewash those events show how

sick this party is and how still with these people in power, how endangered american democracy still is. >> and that's the message you want republicans to carry. jonathan lemire and michael steele are still with us, and joining us we have former u.s. senator, now an nbc news and msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill and pulitzer prize writer tom freedman, with the new york times and author of many best-selling books including "thank you for being late." tom, your latest column for the new york times is entitled "trump's big lie devoured the gop and now eyes our democracy" in it you write in part, quote, america's democracy is still in real danger. in fact, we're closer to a political civil war, more than at any other time in our modern history. today's seeming political calm is actually resting on a false

bottom that we're at risk of crashing through at any moment. under trump's command and control from mar-a-lago and with the complicity of most of his party's leaders, that big lie that the greatest election in our history when more republicans and democrats voted than ever before in the midst of a pandemic must have been rigged because trump lost has metastasized to be a leader in today's gop you either have to play dumb or be dumb on the central issue facing our republic. the integrity of our election. unless more principled republicans stand up for the truth about our last election, we're going to see exactly how a democracy dies. >> or at least a political party. >> well, i wouldn't keep it just to the party. i mean, if you have press, complicit in ignoring this and

allowing these lies to promulgate depending on the network and you have a party that cannot lose its grip from this corrupt man, it is a democracy that's in jeopardy. >> so, tom freedman, we've seen what's happened over the past week with liz cheney, with mitt romney, with these lifelong conservatives, these lifelong republicans because they will not join this personality cult, they are pushed to the sides of the republican party. and even more extreme people or at least people who used to be mainstream republicans but now rush to power are willing to grab that power holding on to the biggest lie that we've had in this country for some time. >> well, joe, mika thank you for having me. you know, when ever people ask me how i feel these days, i answer with an answer that may seem like i just learned english. my answer, joe, is country not

right. country not right. our country is not right because we really hoped and thought that biden was doing, getting the vaccine out, calming the waters on the surface at least, would make this big lie fade away. but what prompted me to write this column was the obvious fact that far from fading away, it's actually gained momentum and it's gone not only wider but deeper down to the state local level of the republican party to the point where you can no longer be elected to office as a republican anywhere unless you sign on to this lie. now, that is bad enough, but when you then weaponize it by tying it to voter suppression initiatives in 40 plus states, you create the possibility that in 2022, 2024, that we could have minority rule. and when you do that, joe, when you do that, you lay the foundations for civil war because if republicans based on

a big lie, are able to change all these laws and suppress the vote so a minority can actually win in this country, i can tell you what will happen. democratic, disenfranchised voters will not stand for that and we will be in a real pickle. my bottom line is, folks, this is so much more serious a moment than you realize. we are setting the fuse to a civil war. this is not a test. >> tom, it's willie. good to see you this morning. one of the reasons you go all the way past the republican party and talk about the dangers of our democracy what you have fundamentally here is a group of people, major political party, flatly not respecting the outcome of elections, which is the foundation of our democracy. so as you look out over the horizon, if, in fact, liz cheney is pushed to the side and the republican party makes this statement in the next few days that we are on the side of the big lie, what does that look like for elections to come?

>> well, you know, willie, it's just so troubling that to do advance in the party you basically have to now stand up and say two plus two equals five. >> yeah. >> you have to say that the apple didn't fall from the tree. you jump from the ground into the tree. when you start telling lies that big that are at the core of your party, when you give someone like elise stefanic, she is able to climb over a ladder of lies and climb over liz cheney with that ladder of lies, what, to get a job that pays $175,000 a year and free parking at national airport, not only shame on her, god save me from ever wanting something so badly that i would so politically prostitute myself and give up sheer truth to climb over someone who has enormous courage here telling the truth. we all need to stand with liz

cheney, with mitt romney, with adam kinzinger because they're not just defending the republican party, they are the bower against what could really become serious political strife if they are able to leverage this lie into voter suppression, into stealing an election. then you really will have lit the fuse, i think, to this country. >> and claire, it's a measure of how serious the problem is when tom and we and others can only list really a small handful of republicans speaking out. liz cheney chief among them, mitt romney, adam kinzinger a small handful of others. as tom writes in his piece, the truth has to come from within. the truth has to come from within the party and those telling the truth are being pushed to the side. >> yeah. and tom, i am struck by the change in the republican party if you look at the way kevin mccarthy is treating liz cheney versus matt gaetz. here you have a man where

there's a written confession that he's paying underage women for sex, this was the party that used to lecture us about moral majority and, you know, the moral thing to do, and family values. and yet they're protecting matt gaetz and going after liz cheney. is this lack of morality in the republican party something that you think has now become permanent or is it fixfixable? >> you know, i don't think it's fixable, claire, as long as donald trump is in charge of this party. that to me the -- what this party has to go through and democrats have gone off the jag and has to go through this party has to be in the wilderness for a while, got to lose one, two, three elections in order to break this fever. that is necessary. it's not sufficient. the sufficient thing is to address the things that are so

agitating it's white working class base that they are ready to follow this grifter, and sit silent while they build lies to really propel the party forward. it's got to be a two-fer. but one thing i know for sure, claire, this party, this trump republican party, cannot be entrusted with power. not in the white house. because people who will lie this broadly and deeply this time they barely gave up power. next time they will not. >> tom, michael steele here. i want to do the what i think is the hard thing but the important thing, let's set the party aside for a moment and because it is a cluster you know what. what opportunities do you see in a newly-created space for center right individuals, independents, conservatives to reformulate, terra form new ground for a more

vibrant political discourse and agenda sort of let the party die on the vine and not waste any more energy trying to save that which does not want to be saved. do you see a path forward with another track can be carved out and begin to move forward to avoid the very thing which i agree with you on with respect to the civil war whether it's political or actually confully gags among americans over politics. >> mmichael, i still believe, it's a very good question, this is a center right, center left country. and if you look at the last election, democrats had a clear choice, farther left bernie sanders, center left, joe biden. they overwhelmingly opted for the center left option until republicans do the same, it's really hard to see how we make any sustainable progress.

so, this version of the republican party has got to fracture. it's got to fracture so it will lose power. it's got to lose power so it will finally sit down and reinstitute itself on the basis of center right principles. i don't know how long that's going to take. but i don't see any sustainable progress for the country. great democracies are always ruled from the center. from the center left and center right working together. and that's been true of our history and true of other countries. but it's going to -- it's not going to happen overnight. and both parties are going to have to deal with the fact that, you know, the center right, the basis of the center right, the white working class voters, have been deeply agitated and disturbed and made vulnerable to this kind of message. we have to attack that. we have to attack the basis of that as well as the political manifestation. >> tom freedman, thank you so much for joining us this morning. we appreciate it. we want to move now to the

pandemic in a moment. we'll speak live with cdc director rochelle walensky. but first, the new book from best-selling author michael lewis that tells the stories of the people who very early on recognized just how bad things were going to get and tried their best to warn the country. it's entitled "the premonition:a pandemic story" and michael joins us now. michael, if you could expound upon this. it's a warning, your book, a premonition of a greater disaster yet to come the next time we allow a lack of leadership to really take hold of a problem as big as this. explain. >> yeah. so, it's a story of these three characters who in a better world would have actually been probably running the u.s. pandemic response. and what falls out of the story is -- as bad as donald trump was

and as much as he made the problem worse, that we were really institutionally just not prepared for the threat we faced when a pathogen appeared here. and the characters are like, it's ground up. it's like one of the major character in the book is a local public health officer who has been fighting communicable disease for the last decade and what he would tell you that she learned a decade ago no one was coming to save her and there wasn't a system, the structures weren't in place to deal with the threat we had been dealing with. but the -- to me, the great take away of the stories these people tell is the consequences of absence of leadership. it's like, to confront the threat that we faced required kind of courage at the top. and it was just not there. >> hey, michael, it's willie. congratulations on the book.

you. >> hey, willie. >> you paint a picture of all this chaos at the top, all this chaos on the surface that we saw everyday from the white house, donald trump talking about injecting chlorine, everything else he talked about. but below the surface, as you write about, these people who you call medical visionaries, actually doing the work sort of against the weight of the federal government. so who were they? and what exactly were they doing to move the ball forward? >> well, at the heart of the story is a group of doctors who had worked together either in the bush white house or the obama white house and stayed together in a sort of almost secretive group they call themselves the wolverines. and they were placed -- some were in the federal governments. couple were in the trump administration. but the one i focus on is essentially one of the two people who just basically reinvented or invented the idea of pandemic planning in the bush

administration. and all this stuff we're going through with social distancing and finding responses before the vaccine to minimize loss of life grew out of that administration. i mean, there were no strategies before that. and these people, these doctors, first embedded their strategy in the cdc and kind of fought thought the cdc would lead the way. in january of last year when they saw that wasn't going to happen, that the cdc was going to follow and be at the mercy of the white house, they set about trying to coordinate a u.s. response through the governors. and one of the things that is just amazing to me, still breath taking to me, is that you can map the u.s. response, state to state, on to the social relationships that these doctors had with governors or people near the governors. so the states that shut down quickly, california, probably saved a lot of lives by shutting

down when it shut down. wasn't as early as it should have, but saved a lot of lives. and it was because the wolverines had a relationship with someone inside the state government and were able to show them the severity of the problem in january. you know, these people all had a beat on what was coming our way by january 20th and the country didn't respond with any kind of alarm for four weeks after that. >> michael, there's some incredible people here, computer modelling expert bob glass and his 13-year-old daughter lisa who actually did a high school project dr. >> laura, yeah. >> laura. i'm sorry on airborne viruses. dr. charity dane, california health officer who made predictions and was usually right based on her gut. she saw images on tv of chinese officials welding shut apartment doors. knew this was going to be bad. you talk about carter meker, v.a. hospital supervisor who turned white house pandemic

planner, they called him scout because he was actually able to scout out and sniff out problems where other people weren't doing it. and then you say these people six weeks -- these wolverines six weeks before president trump declared a national emergency he wrote an email to the wolverines said any way you cut it, this is going to be bad. the projected size of the outbreak already seems hard to believe. and this was at the same time that donald trump was saying that it was one person coming in from china and soon that would be taken care of as well. they are predicting doom, half a million people plus dead. >> more, if nothing is done. and what -- so, what struck them, would alarm them beyond belief, is that they kind of expected the worst from donald trump. that was sort of a given in

their minds. was that the cdc didn't sort of bridle and say, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is a problem. they took so long to ring the alarm bell. it pointed out something deeper than donald trump, he was a catastrophe. but the deeper thing was just how politicized our institutions have become. you go back a couple generations and the cdc director was a career civil servant who had some protections and who was able to stand up to a president. and what we had in the cdc during the trump administration is someone a political totety. who was not informing the american people of the threat of a disease. this is the center for disease control. they're supposed to be controlling disease. but was actually kind of in many ways obstructing my characters who were on the ground trying to save american lives. so, it's a shocking story, but

there's this other side to the story i found just thrilling, exhilarating to write. these characters were superheroes. it wasn't just, oh, they saw it coming. it was they were working so courageously in a broken system and the things they did revealed to you the shape of the dysfunction in the system. you can sort of look at their experiences of pathology of what we've just been through and you read the story and say, well, i see what we need to fix now. >> jonathan lemire. >> michael, congratulations on another book. big fan here. want to look forward, if we could, and into what you're seeing from the biden administration, which of course while dealing with this pandemic, knows that there will be another down the road at some point, whether that's in years or decades. what are you seeing so far as to how they are preparing for what could come next, what are they

doing and perhaps more importantly what should they be doing to get the nation ready for the next time? >> i mean, it's a great question. and if you go to my three main characters and ask them what they make of what we're in now they'll say, you know, they kind of breathe a sigh of relief, they thought it could have been much worse. you take the same lethality but it's killing children or you take something like this and it's more lethal. i mean, you're looking at social collapse. so, and their view is that in a funny way mother nature gave us a gift by waking us -- maybe waking us up. so, the biden administration, you know, it's like my god, all of a sudden there are people who are willing to manage the problem. trump just walked away from it. he just ignored this -- one tool we had to deal with the problem which was the federal government. and threw it to the states.

so, if i'm the biden administration, i'm doing something bolder than just taking a better attitude towards it all. i'm looking at the structure of the government. i'm looking at how do we create an institution in the centers for disease control that can actually stand up to whoever happens to be in the white house. and i'm also looking at the fact that we actually don't have a public health system. it's 3,000 charity deans. it's 3,000 disconnected, local people on to whom we've thrust the problems, not just covid, i mean, the stories i've heard dealing with tuberculosis and measles and hepatitis c. it required more courage than any public servant should have to exhibit. no one should have to be as brave as charity dean was. we need to find a way to make those jobs easier -- more resources and especially more

top cover, like support from above. i think the way you do that is you create a network so they support each other. you link all these people together, you give them better tools and information. you perhaps put them less at the mercy of the cdc so there's not a single point of failure. but you create a network so that when you pull a lever at the federal level, something happens. >> uh-huh. the new book is "the premonition:a pandemic story." michael lewis, thank you very much for being on this morning. we really appreciate it. >> boy, it looks great. >> as for the current fight against the virus, president biden is setting a new vaccination goal of at least one shot to 70% of american adults by july 4th. joining us now director of the centers for disease control and prevention, dr. rochelle walensky. dr. walensky, thank you for being on. the fight to get the country vaccinated is happening right now. it's incredible what the administration, what you all have been able to do. i want to start, though, with a

global look at this. how much are you looking at what's happening in places like india, where the virus is still out of control and the potential that that could put off this country from getting back on track. >> good morning. thank you for that question. you know, we look all over the world to ensure all countries are getting what they need. you know, as we look at what's going on with india, first of all, our hearts go out to that country to the healthcare workers, to people and families who have lost lives. we're working hard in collaboration with the government of india. we've sent over 1,000 canisters of oxygen. we've sent over 15 million n95s. we're sending products to help the supply for manufacturing of vaccines for over 20 million vaccines. we at the cdc have had long-standing collaborations with public health officials in india the past year. we trained over 10,000 infection control practitioners to have

safe conditions through covid and offered support by sending cdc employees there to assist. they have actually preferred technical guidance remotely right now but we're in close touch to see how other ways we can assist. >> so if you could explain the why of the sending support and supplies beyond the humanitarian need for it, but is there concern about the progress that we're seeing here at home being impacted by countries that are not able to keep up with the virus and variants and new strains are developing? >> we know in general that the more a virus mutates, the more it replicates the more it mutates and the more it mutates the more possibility for a variant to take hold. so, in fact, yes, we're trying to decrease viral replication here in this country and we need to decrease viral replication around the world. again, more viral replication means more possibility for variants. the more variants we have, the more likely it could evade our

current vaccine. >> dr. walensky, willie geist. great to have you with us this morning. let's talk about the 70% threshold you all set out yesterday to reach 70% of adult americans being vaccinated at least with one shot by the 4th of july. how did you arrive at that number? and how significant would it be to the broad recovery of the country to get there? >> yeah. you know, we have to date vaccinated fully vaccinated over 40% of the population over the age of 18. and we knew by the end of april, early may, we would be in a position where we needed to do more outreach to get to more people, that we would have more supply at some point than we had people rushing in to get the vaccine. we're at that point. now that hard work starts. in terms of the 70%, you know, what we do know is the more people who get vaccinated the less disease we have. we've already seen disease numbers starting to come down. we believe that is in part because of the amount of

vaccination we have. and so, yes, that is a benchmark but in my mind you know we need to reach every last person and so i'm going person by person and not a big number. >> so 70%. what is the anything sif kans of that? does that strike you as herd immunity? in other words, people are looking at, okay the biden administration set this number. if we hit that number by the 4th of july, does that mean they believe you all included that we can get back to our normal lives? >> well, first i would like to say 70% is a first shot. we want to make sure that everybody gets their second shot. what we've seen in the experience in both israel as well as the uk as soon as vaccination numbers start getting to 60, 70, 80% we really see case numbers coming down dramatically. and so we've taken some guidance from the -- what we've seen in those countries. again, we will not stop at 70%. what i also want to convey here is this is not 70% nationally. this is 70% in every single

community. so, that if we have 70% nationally but we have a community that only has 40 vaccination rate, this is an opportunist. we need to blanket the entire country. >> if you look at public polling and i know you know this and it's frustrating, there's a lot of people who say it's not just about access for me, i know where to get one, i don't want to get the vaccine. i don't trust it. i don't believe it. i don't want the government putting a needle in my arm. how do you convince people frankly saying not going to do it, they should do it for the benefit of the community. >> yeah. first of all, you listed all the things that we need to tackle, right? so, you know, we hear about populations that don't want to get vaccinated, broad populations. this is a very individual decision. and so we need to do this one person at a time. we need to do the outreach in community-based organizations, in rural organizations. we need to ask people, what is it about the vaccine that is making you hesitant right now?

what are the things that you need to know that you need to learn and understand for you to want to get vaccinated today or in the future? and we need to meet people where they are and answer their questions. this is going to be a one person at a time. >> just want to say i got my second shot on monday. felt a little bit sluggish, little tired yesterday, but i was here at work yesterday, here today and i feel absolutely 100%. for what it's worth people sitting on the fence right now, that won't be everyone's experience, but it was mine. dr. walensky, claire mccaskill is here with a question for you. claire? >> doctor, you know, this is america everybody wants to compete for a prize or a groupon coupon. have you seriously considered working for not for profit or other health organizations to maybe provide some kind of prize, drawing for people who come and get their vaccination at this point? maybe some cash. maybe a coupon for, you know,

mika, shut your ears, maybe a coupon for a free big mac. have you guys thought about that? because it seems to me sometimes the carrot in the united states of america is more effective than the stick. >> good morning, claire. thank you for that. so, we have now cohort of over 5,000 community core organizations that are working with people -- not everybody will want a carrot. some people want a different carrot than others. some might want a big mac. some might want a coupon to a pharmacy. so we're working with individual communities to understand what might best speak to those communities and doing our best to make sure that we can -- we're working with nascar, we're working with professional sports leagues to see maybe they want to meet sports figures. so we're doing everything that we can to reach as many people that we can. one person at a time. >> so dr. walensky, dr. fauci was on "today show" saying it

could be a matter of days that the emergency use authorization comes through to use the shot, to use the vaccine for 12 to 15-year-olds. what more can you tell us about that? >> right. i don't want to get out ahead of the fda, but we are expecting it soon. so many people have been reporting we're expecting it soon. i've heard so many people enthusiastic about the possibility of being able to vaccinate their 12 to 15-year-olds. certainly vaccine is available now to everyone over the age of 16 using the pfizer vaccine. what we do know is that we need to make this available the cdc meet and we're doing -- we're already in the planning processes for when it arrives, should it arrive. and that means having pharmacies available to give these vaccines, having pediatricians offices, trusted people for parents and for these teens and betweens. and then also ensuring as these kids are mobile over the summer that they can get a vaccine in

one place and the second shot in another. >> cdc director, dr. rochelle walensky, thank you very much. and still ahead on "morning joe," democratic senator elizabeth warren joins the conversation. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. hooh. that spin class was brutal. well you can try using the buick's massaging seat. oohh yeah, that's nice. can i use apple carplay to put some music on? sure, it's wireless. pick something we all like. ok. hold on. what's your buick's wi-fi password? “buickenvision2021.” oh, you should pick something stronger. that's really predictable. that's a really tight spot. don't worry. i used to hate parallel parking. [all together] me too. - hey. - you really outdid yourself. yes, we did. the all-new buick envision. an suv built around you... all of you.

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sort of the excuse the pun elephant in the room of january 6th? >> you know, it's tough. and working with republicans right now really means working with one here or two over there. it's not as if there's really a coherent push and mitch mcconnell is saying i want to come in the room and see what we can do together to build a stronger infrastructure package. instead it's carved off in little pieces. i admire what president biden is doing. he's saying it's important. we want to be open handed here. come on in, republicans, and help us do it. but understand this, we are going to move forward. we're going to get done what needs to be done. >> does it feel like donald trump's aura is still there with these republicans especially in light of what we're seeing with liz cheney in the house and senators who keep sort of taking

the trek back to mar-a-lago? i'm trying to figure out how you work together on anything when you have this incredible assault on the capitol and a disagreement as to where it came from and how it erupted? >> well, certainly with a lot of them they are so focussed on donald trump that they can't really focus on getting work done in the senate. but, look, the feel is different because now we have a democratic majority. itty, tiny, thin, democratic ma juror tirks but it's a democratic majority. this gives us a chance to move forward on the things the country needs. infrastructure, for example, is very popular across the nation. and you know, we need roads and bridges, we need them in places where democrats live and where republicans live.

so it's really kind of the case of the democrats are saying we're going to keep pushing forward because the nation needs us. please republicans, come and join us but too many are still turned toward mar-a-lago. >> senator warren, when you ran for president last year, joe biden was the moderate in the group in that field. and now as he's become president of the united states and passed legislation giping with the covid relief bill, some of the executive actions he's taken, now looking at that massive infrastructure package, progressives have been pleasantly surprised to stunned they have gotten so much of their agenda through. where do you fall on that spectrum in terms of your evaluation of president biden? >> well, you know, willie, i would stop and say remember last year the president ran on a very progressive agenda. he said what he was going to do, that he was going to pass a big rescue package, build back better.

that's the infrastructure package we're working on right now. something i talk about a lot in my book, treat child care as infrastructure. he said he was going to tax the wealthy and the well-connected. so, in my view, he's doing what he told us he would do. not only what he told us what he would do, what he got 7 million more votes to do than the other guy did. so, i see this as he's a man who is fulfilling his promises. >> let's talk about the book, it is entitled, persist. which is something you definitely do. and it's about the challenges that you faced in life, how the issues and the work that you're doing now is deeply personal. i'm wondering if you could share what those issues are and how much of your time during your incredible campaign on the campaign trail might have impacted how you now work today. >> so think of it this way, i ran for president and i got to

stand up, day after day after day, multiple times a day, and talk to big crowds of people about child care, talk about it from a very personal point of vurks something that i came that close to not having child care and not being able to finish my education, not having child care, not being able to keep my first real full-time teaching job. and how that problem is worse today than it was when i was a young mother. i got to fight to cancel student loans, i got to fight for a wealth tax. and now think where we are in america. over this past year we've lived through a pandemic, a racial reckoning, an armed insurrection. we have a new president. and as you said, we have passed an historic rescue package. that means the table is set for change. people want change. so what i do in this book is i

talk about why policy, how policy touches us very personally. i tell my own stories. stories of people i love. but lay out the agenda for the changes we can make in the next 100 days that will affect our children for generations to come. it's very hopeful book but a lot of work in front of us. >> elizabeth, it's claire. >> hi, claire. >> so good to see you. i miss my friends. i don't miss the grind. but i miss my friends. i want to talk about your book. let me just say that i think one of your gifts is your ability to write about your own vulnerability. and the thing that struck me about your book, as i haven't finished it yet, but i've begun it, is that your reckoning about women running for president and how hillary's failures reflected

on you and your inability to rise above that even though you had a plan for that. could you speak to that where we are as a country, accepting a woman as the most powerful person on the planet? >> so i wanted to write an honest account, an honest account of being a woman who runs for president but, as you know, in that same chapter, an honest account of i pretty much spent most of my life swimming in the boy's end of the pool in terms of the kind of work i've done. i wrote it so it's out there, it's visible and i hope to inspire other women. the story is very much about -- it was tough running for president.

it was tough losing. but ask me how sorry i am that i've ran and they gave it everything i had. and the answer, not one bit. i got in the fight to fight for the things i believe in. i didn't win. but what i learned is that persistence is you get right back in that fight and keep fighting for the things you believe in. it's just the tools are going to be somewhat different. but right now, right now, we have president last week who addressed the nation and talked about the importance of childcare. we want to create real opportunity in america for everyone, then by golly, it is time for universal childcare in this country. for affordable, available, high quality childcare so every momma, i know there are some daddies this is going to apply to, every momma can finish her

education, can take a job, can take a promotion, and that we can lift up the childcare workers and preschool teachers across this country who are so badly underpaid. this is good for our babies, good for our mommas, good foram our care workers. and the president of the united states is already in negotiations over exactly how much money we need to put in that to make it happen here in america. that's pretty terrific. >> senator warren, i know you consider it an honor to be able to fight for what you believe in. as we close, there are -- i'll end where we began. there are those in washington who are just fighting for the truth. specifically today liz cheney and i wondered if you could comment on the position that she finds herself in today and how she's handling it. >> yeah, i give a lot of credit here. she told the truth.

and that's not acceptable to her party. that means the problem is not liz cheney, the problem is the republican party. we can't go forward as a nation built on lies. we need to be a nation that addresses truth and if things don't work out the way we planned, than pick ourselves up and adjust. but what the republicans want to try to do to liz cheney says so much about a republican party that is becoming further and further divorced from reality. now, i worry about this for our nation. but now what's clear to me is we have to keep going. i think about it the same way joe biden is doing. with the plans on the table. we stay open, hope the republicans will come in and join us, but we need to make

progress for the american people. we need that child care. we need to cancel student loan debt, we need to pass a wealth tax and attack the environmental crisis head on. it's personal and it's for all of us. >> the new book is "persist" senator elizabeth warren, thank you very much. it's always great to have you on "morning joe." and coming up, attorney general bill barr slammed by a federal judge for his spin on the mueller probe. what we're learning about barr's efforts to protect donald trump. as we go to break, check out our new equal value series with lauren and daniella at knowyourvalue.com they're digging deep and celebrating the diversity of women's voices. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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michael steele, i wanted to ask you about elizabeth's warren's comments about working with republicans in the very building that was attacked on january 6th with the very disagreement about the truth. it seems like things may be more stalled than ever or at least maybe should be. how do you move on if you can't agree on the truth? >> well, that's a big problem and it's an underlying one for the senate as a whole, not just what republicans do, but how democrats navigate in that space. they have their own challenges in not just trying to confront what republicans are not doing and the crazy stuff that they are doing but how do they navigate the waters ahead of them going into 2022. i mean, the senator is absolutely right, joe biden got 7 million more votes than the other guy, but they lost 12

house seats and the senate is controlled by joe manchin a conservative democrat from west virginia. so, the reality for them is that as much as they want to tout these progressive policies, not necessarily what the country is ready to buy, at least as far as we can tell. and joe biden is trying to very much sort of avoid the real big pitfalls that could blow up on the progressive side as he's standing in front of a republican caucus that doesn't want to move the ball at all. the success that he has had is because joe biden has been able to strike that course that sort of navigates in between the two and that's from 43 years of the senate, eight years as vice president. so, it's really, the ball is in joe biden's court more than it is the senate or the house in how the country moves forward through covid, as you covered in the last hour. and on infrastructure and other big issues.

>> we have much more ahead on liz cheney who is about to lose her leadership post for telling the truth about donald trump in the 2020 election. "morning joe" is coming right back. oe" is cominrig ght back ♪you've got the brawn♪ ♪i've got the brains♪ ♪let's make lots of♪ ♪uh uh uh♪ ♪oohhh there's a lot of opportunities♪ with allstate, drivers who switched saved over $700. saving is easy when you're in good hands. allstate click or call to switch today. psoriatic arthritis, made my joints stiff, swollen, painful. tremfya® is approved to help reduce joint symptoms in adults with active psoriatic arthritis. some patients even felt less fatigued. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them.

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>> dr. fauci has served as an adviser to seven different presidents of the united states and pay attention to the difference in his demeanor while working for trump compared to working for joe biden. >> i want to thank you for being here and update you on the progress you have made after a week of extraordinary mobilization. >> thank you very much and i'm just going to spend a couple minutes just summarizing the status of where we are. >> masks, swabs, sanitizers, ventilators and everything else. >> it really depends on what you mean by normality. normality is exactly the way --

>> i'll be back tomorrow and if i might, i'd like to ask vice president pence to take over. >> you feel like you're back now? >> i think so. >> just like that. >> that is so cute. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday may 5th. with us to kick things off, we have former chair of the republican national committee and now msnbc political analyst michael steele and white house reporter for the associated press jonathan lamer. we have a lot to get to. including mccarthy set on a hot mic liz cheney's ouster from republican leadership. president biden sets an ambitious new goal for vaccinating americans against covid-19 but, first, a federal judge blasted former attorney

general bill barr for his handling of the mueller investigation. accusing him of misleading her and congress in a decision released last night, judge amy berman jackson called barr disingenuous and ordered the justice department to release the redacted portions of a march 2019 memo from doj lawyers that barr said advised him not to charge trump with obstruction. the justice department at the time withheld the full memo from a watchdog group arguing that it contained privileged legal advice and however judge jackson says that her review of the case shows it was more legal strategy than advice and that the decision not to charge had already been made. jackson already crit stzed the four-page summary of the mueller report that barr provided to

congress which trump then used to declare that he was exonerated. in the letter barr claimed that the special council investigation did not support charges of obstruction and that he came to that conclusion based on the advice contained in the memo. but according to the judge, e-mails show barr's letter to congress and the memo were, quote, written by the very same people at the very same time. she adds, quote, the e-mails show not only that the authors and the recipients of the memorandum are working hand in hand to craft the advice, but that the letter to congress is the priority and it is getting completed first. >> so, willie, you know, the federal judge has said what many of us assumed from the beginning. that the attorney general of the united states was not playing attorney general. was not, was not doing his job as attorney general.

he was engaged instead in crisis management. in spin and being donald trump's pr agent and trying to blunt the impact of the mueller report. and in so doing said in a fact that the attorney general of the united states lied to congress, lied to the american people and lied to the federal courts about the mueller report and about the findings in the mueller report and about the, quote, decision as to whether donald trump would be charged with obstruction of justice. of course, all the trump hacks immediately took bill barr's lies as the gospel and then continued and continued even today saying the mueller report was much to do about nothing. it was a russian hoax. they didn't find that he committed obstruction of justice

when, in fact, moore gave ten examples of that. >> mueller laid out chapter and verse all the moments where he did, in fact, donald trump obstruct justice and said it wasn't his job to recommend those charges against the president of the united states. because he did not, former attorney general barr stepped into that void and said, well, i read the mueller report before anyone else has. read it very quickly, by the way. my four-page summary to congress and the president should not be prosecuted based on the findings of this report. that's what judge jackson said last night. let's bring in michael schmidt msnbc national security analyst and nbc news correspondent covering national security and intelligence and ken delaney is also with us. two nights ago judge jackson handed down this decision. walk us through a little bit of what's behind it. what was she looking into and what did she say specifically about attorney general barr?

>> she is looking into whether a document about the obstruction decision should be released. that is sort of like a side show to what she is really doing or getting at or the most important thing about this. that is her basically putting herself out there and criticizing the former attorney general. as you xw guys were laying out,w he handled the end of the mueller investigation. i was going back and looking at barr's statements when he holds this press conference as the report is being released and he's going to these great lengths to try and help the president as joe was saying, as essentially his press agent saying how trump had cooperated so much with the mueller investigation and that they had handed over everything. donald trump refused to meet with the mueller investigators. he refused to sit and answer

basic questions about them even though he was president of the united states. but barr was painting a picture of a white house that has opened up its doors and allowed unfettered access to, you know, whatever they wanted and needed. there was no piece of information that mueller's investigators could not get. and it was hard to keep track of and to document everything as it was going and we did do this at the time. but to go back and look at the statements and see the attorney general essentially, you know, acting as the president's defense lawyer as early as april of 2019, you can see the path that trump was on being enabled by the justice department in what he did. remember, this is before he was impered the first time. so the judge, one of three judges in washington that has gone to this sort of extreme

measure of criticizing barr publicly for how he handled these politically sensitive investigations. >> and ken delainian, the judge accuses bill barr and his department of being, quote, disingenuous to this court with respect to the decisionmaking congress that should be shielded by the deliberative process privilege. and, again, says that in so doing they misled the court, they misled congress and they misled the american people. >> yeah, that's right, joe. as you pointed out earlier disingenuous is a polite lawyer word for lying. both about their conduct in this lawsuit and about barr's conduct in issuing this summary. as a side note, i would say that this ruling shows how broken the freedom of information law is because lawyers claim this

privilege all the time, even when it's not merited. but to your earlier point about barr acting as trump's press agent there is a line in here judge berman jackson said that just really struck me about the office of attorney general and the office of deputy attorney general. when they were preparing this memo the two offices were working in tandem to cast the president in the most positive light possible. so, that's what was going on here. they were all scrambling to take the mueller report, as she pointed out, barr barely had time to skim at this point. and cast it in the most favorable light possible for the president. now, i have to say as andrew weisman pointed out in his own book, he criticized the mueller investigation not only did they not charge trump with obstruction of justice, but mueller made the strange decision that he didn't feel

like he could characterize the evidence and say what other prosecutors said which is, hey, in a normal case, there was plenty of evidence here to charge the president with obstruction of justice. mueller didn't do that and he opened the door in some sense for barr to take the action he did. you know, history will judge whether that was a wise decision on mueller's part. it was a careful and scrupulous decision and following the ethics and the law of what he was tasked to do. but this judge really hammering barr over the idea that he quickly concluded that, you know, the president didn't obstruct justice, guys. >> ken delaiian and michael schmidt, thank you for your reporting. still ahead, you won't see liz cheney, instead the conservative republican is casting her lot with the rule of law. that conversation is next on "morning joe."

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let's turn to the latest with the house republican conference chair liz cheney and whether the caucus will push her out of leadership. axios posted audio of kevin mccarthy on a hot mic yesterday criticizing cheney ahead of an interview on fox news. here's what mccarthy said off air versus what he said live on air. >> i think she's got real problems. i've had it with, i've had it with her. you know, i've lost confidence. well, someone just has to bring a motion but i assume. >> there's no concern about how she voted on impeachment. that decision has been made. i have heard from members concerned about her ability to carry out the job as conference chair, to carry out the message. i haven't heard member concerned about her vote on impeachment but more the job ability to do and what's our best step forward that we can all work together

instead of attacking one another. >> a spokesperson for congresswoman cheney put out a statement saying, quote, this is about whether the republican party is going to perpetuate lies about the 2020 election and attempt to whitewash what happened on january 6th. liz will not do that. that is the issue. joe, so no change from congresswoman cheney on her position about all of this. she's increasingly on an island here, it looks like, if you talk to people behind the scenes. she is going to be pushed out of that job as leadership chair in the republican party because she made the statement again that the election of 2020 was not stolen. >> well, you know, mika, it's strike her down and she'll only become stronger. i mean, here you have the "wall street journal" yesterday in a scathing editorial that we're going to be reading in a little bit saying gop leaders should not have to lie about 2020 to

keep their jobs. >> they write in part this, republicans will look foolish or worse to swing voters if they refight 2020 in 2022. they can truthfully say that democrats used lawsuits to exploit the pandemic to change the election rules in some states. they can also say democratic judges on the pennsylvania supreme court let democrats get away with it. democrats did a better job of exploiting the pandemic election rules than the gop. but no evidence any of this was decisive as mr. trump lost the popular vote in a route and the electoral college by a similar margin to what he won in 2016. mr. trump lost even as republicans gained 12 seats in the house. the election was close, but not as close as others in american history. republicans should find a way to speak this truth to voters in 2022. and quickly turn to running on

an agenda for the future that will check mr. biden and his cradle to grave entitlement state purging liz cheney for honesty would diminish the party and that lays the groundwork for our next conversation. the gop won it all in texas and then turned on it. elena plott joins us with her latest piece straight ahead on "morning joe." when sending a text at 3am... ...is something you won't regret. craving pizza. personal assistance, 24/7. one of the many things you could expect when you're with amex. [ crowd cheering ]

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let's bring in reporter for "new york times" elena plott. you're taking a look at how texas is a microcosm of all that we've been talking about in a new piece from "new york times" magazine entitled "the gop won it all in texas and then turned on itself. you write in part this as an aassailable citadel of republican electoral power for a generation, and one whose democraphy and geography as the best-case scenario. a grim omen for republican

leaders in this state where the gop achieved what might be described as the best-case scenario for the party's hopes in other states in 2022 mid-term elections the state's prominent elections are struggling against one another as if they had just gone down in a route. meanwhile has placed his party in the awkward position of denying its own down ballot successes in many states. this has been particularly striking in texas where the gop was arguably better positioned than republicans else where to escape his gravitational pull. though it has a reputation, especially among coastal liberals as a hot bed of fringe politics, the texas republican party has long tended towards standard issue conservativism. where are they, joe? where is texas? >> if you want to see where texas republicans are you need to read this "new york times"

magazine piece. elena, as you read it you see you had greg abbot who was on the texas supreme court for a decade and attorney general was sort of main stream and head down. you have him morphing into a trumpian figure pulled into the extremes by alan west, a guy kicked out of florida politics a decade or two ago and reappeared in texas and we even get that scene of madness at the end where west is going around talking to people and one guys comes up to him and tells me where you want to start shooting. i'll stack the bodies right up. that's how extreme some of them have become regarding this quote, stolen election. >> yeah, and, you know, having covered trump rallies, republican rallies for i guess the past five years now, i would

say that rally in texas in particular, the first sort of gop gathering i went to pos the 2020 election and post january 6th, i have never been in a rally where there was such an sinister edge and undercurrent throughout the whole event, which i thought was, you know, pretty striking. even trump rallies, you know, for everything that would go on, there was still in some ways this sort of joyful ethos, i guess, but the anger is palpable and that's why you're seeing kevin mccarthy and liz cheney go head to head in the way they are because kevin mccarthy knows well that his voters back home so many republican voters at this point are not ready to give up the lie that the 2020 election was stolen from donald trump. and to the extent that i think kevin mccarthy right now wants to just, you know, keep quiet as

i said to you and mika recently, just stay still and hope it all evaporates come 2022. that's what you're seeing somebody like greg abbott want to do, as well. even as i report in this piece texas had every theoretical reason to move on from this in 2020. they ran ahead of him in almost any statewide office of any consequence. i mean house republicans did at large picking up 12 seats. if you can have the kind of results for republicans that you did in texas, the sort of mandate they were able to establish elect torally speaking. >> elena plott, thank you very much. what do mary j. blige, go goes and tina turner have in common? all nominees for the rock 'n' roll hall of fame.

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more than 52 companies and business leaders have signed an open letter opposed voting restrictions in texas. some of the companies signed on include microsoft, american airlines, hp, salesforce and unilever to name a few. the letter reads in part, we stand together as a nonpartisan coalition calling on all elected leaders in texas to support reforms that make democracy more accessible and oppose any changes that would restrict eligible voters access to the ballot. we urge business and civic leaders to join us as we call upon lawmakers to uphold our ever elusive core democratic

principle equality. the legislation is being debated in austin this week while several other states are also in the midst of debates over voting laws, including georgia and florida. now to the conversation we've been having this week with professor at harvard university pulitzer prize winning author annette gordon reed. she's back with her new book titled "on juneteenth." also with us author, poet and writer in residence at vanderbilt university caroline randall williams. good to have you both. annette, this morning we're focusing on the violence that followed juneteenth and you talk about the tulsa race massacre, perhaps the worst episode of jim crowe violence in u.s. history.

here's a report on it from just last year. >> we were not the perpetrators, we were the victims. but it took 80 years to get the state of oklahoma to acknowledge that. >> the tulsa race massacre is believed to be one of the worst incidents of racial violence in american history. from may 31st to june 1st in 1921 hundreds were killed and thousands injured and thousands of buildings were destroyed. >> on june 1st they began to systematically destroy neighborhoods and they had airplanes dropping things down on people's houses and they had made up their minds to clear the entire area of black people. >> started after a newspaper reported a black man tried to sexually assault a white woman. >> later this month will be the

100th anniversary of that massacre. a trump rally a year ago inadvertently brought new attention to that act of terror as well as juneteenth but otherwise you say, annette, dark chapters like that massacre have gone relatively unnoticed. can you tell us more about that? >> well, after the end of slavery and white southerners lost the power that they had over african-american people, they unleashed violence and it was something that started as soon as 1865 when they made the announcement, remember i told you that people who had been celebrating the announcement of the end of slavery were beaten or whipped by their former enslavers. and the resentment that people had about this notion of equality, the order mentions the word, suggests that blacks were now going to live on an equal

plain with whites and many people could not take that after their culture that made slavery a part of their way of life. so, throughout the years there are other instances, not so dramatic as the tulsa riot, but situations where black people in a particular town were essentially run out and people took over their land. they look at census records. certain number of black people, you know, one time the census was done and the next time they came back, there were none. sun down people had to be indoors by a certain period of time. all of these things and to maintain the control that people had during slavery without the actual slave system. violence was a part of this from 1865 on when black people ceased to be of financial value to whites. they turned on them. >> and, annette, you talk about the history of jim crowe vigil

ante so-called justice in the state of texas. you tell the terrible story of bob white who is accused of rape, tried repeatedly, taken out, beaten by texas rangers every night, forced confession. that case went all the way up to the supreme court. tell us about it. >> yes. this was a case, ironically, that my grandfather used to tell me about. he knew bob white and i didn't realize until i was working on this book that it led up to the supreme court. bob white was tried repeatedly. one good thing about that is the texas court system saw a problem with this. this was, obviously, a due process violation, violation of the 14th amendment. but when he's on trial the last time the husband of the woman he was accused of raping walked into the courtroom and shot him in the back of the head and killed him. and nothing happened to him. you know, he was acquitted and

went on to live. so, he was murdered in front of the judges and the jury and the spectators in the courtroom and nothing took place. >> and, annette, you write in the book while this type of justice, if you want to call it that, was playing out in west texas, it was getting the support and the backing of the federal government in effect that this jim crowe justice was being supported by federal systems. >> well, i mean, we have a system of federalism and the things that go on in the states, you know, the feds can't do anything about it unless they actually find a constitutional violation, the violation of the federal constitution. there was not a move after the end of reconstruction in 1877 and the troops were pulled out of the south. black people were left to the tender mercies, you know, we use that phrase of their former enslavers and it wasn't a

pretty. ic. icture at all. there were people that tried to help and allies but for the most part they were living in a system that is behind an iron curtain, essentially, until the 1960s, well, 1950s, that was to put the civil rights movement was about. to try to move beyond all of these kinds of things. but this stuff had, you know, origins in the 1860s with the end of slavery, once again, when black people cease to be value and they were a mere nuisance and people did not want them to be part of the civic society. we're still fighting this votal battle, voting rights battle today and there's a long history to all of this and we're still connected to that past. >> you know, caroline, i know you've got a question for annette, but it's so interesting listening to her talk about the resentment that many white southerners felt at the end of slavery.

we've had you on to talk about confederate monuments that were spread across the south and were spread across the south actually right before i was born as the civil rights movement started to gain momentum. and it was in reaction to the civil rights movement. it was more of that white resentment. and, of course, it had nothing to do with at that time anything more than a push back against the burgeoning movement that tried to give black americans more freedom. >> well, i think that's exactly right, joe. i think, you know, much of annette's work and much of what i'm interested in writing about and teaching about is this question of how we remember better so that we can make a better future. and i think that one of the important things for us to remember is why those monuments

were put up. they were put up as acts of terror, not actually acts of memorial. i think when we can't look back and think about that. i'm just thinking today right now my own state, tennessee, they're trying to withhold funding from schools that want to teach critical race theory, for example. people don't want to remember accurately and i think it's a failure of moral imagination on the part of the country to not be able to do that. and i think that, to me, that is one of the things i wanted to talk to annette about is this question of to me the idea that a black person can love america knowing what we know about what this place has been, our patriotism has a different kind of back bone than these cowardly people that can't look back and reintegrate into their memory the truths that we've known this whole time. i want to think about how we navigate that. how do we do the work to reframe that part of the principle of

american patriotism and the face of these people who don't want to remember what we've been in order to get where we need to go. and so i'm dieing to hear your insight about it. >> well, you know, it's a tough question. the only thing i can say and i'm sure you know thought african-americans because of the experiences that we had have a special message for the world essentially. how to persevere in the face of oppression. the only thing i can say is that i don't think we can spend too much time trying to convince people that don't think we're human beings. that's not our task in the world. our task is to keep on the path that our ancestors before us went down in order to be in a situation where we can have a better life. i think the work has to be done among ourselves, the work among allies, people who recognize our humanity and go forward the way

we've always been going forward. i mean, i think trying to convince people that you're human is degrading, it's nothing anybody should have to do. they either know it or they don't. and if they don't want to live by that, there's nothing we can do. we just continue on the path that we have been on with the lessons that we've learned from our ancestors, from our own experiences. >> annette, here's what you write about the patriotism of black americans, quote, almost from the very beginning of their time in north america, blacks have shown their deep and patriotic attachment to the country they helped build, even as they have been utterly realistic about the way many of their fellow countrymen viewed them. persisting in the face of that reality has been a struggle of centuries. i mean, i have to say to hear you say there's nothing we can do is demoralizing.

but at the same time, it's a reality that many have learned to live with and let alone making sure that we look at history accurately, we're in a time right now, we're in realtime. we're struggling to look at the reality of today's history accurately with the attitudes of some americans. >> yes. i mean, it's always a struggle to do, to make truth and, you know, justice the right way to go. but i think this is something that whites have to work on as well as blacks amongst yourselves and this is one of the things that happened during the civil rights movement. there were whites that said whatever we're getting out of this is not worth it to carry on in this fashion, so it has to be a conversation among whites about what path we're going to take. but there's nothing for us to do as i said to recognize the value of human life. it was always done because it's been denied to us.

and to go forward with our message to the world. >> you know, caroline, you talk about the patriotism and there's so many ironies, even if we just look over the past century when it comes to civil rights. you have somebody like harry truman who grew up in a confederacy loving family who said racial statements who desegregated, integrated the armed forces and lbj also in many ways a racist background and fought civil rights and then helped pass, of course, landmark legislation 6465. but in our time, i kept thinking as we approach the election in 2020 what extraordinary irony that the very people who would help preserve checks and balances in madisonian democracy

were going to be black women first in south carolina and then as election night came along in milwaukee county, in wayne county and dekalb county and in atlanta, georgia. you talk about that patriotism, western-style liberal democracy. some of us believe, i certainly believe, was saved in large part by black women who've spent much of the past 400 years in this country being repressed. >> well, i think that's right. you know, because democracy functioning is how we save our own lives. we're not just doing it for america, we're doing it to survive, right. so i think asking the constitution, asking the checks and balances, the systems of government to do what they say they promise to do for all citizens, black women will always vote to push america to get closer to that ideal.

because if america isn't working towards that ideal, our lives are at risk, the children that are born from our bodies are at risk. we're in danger if america doesn't do what it's supposed to do and live up to its promises of equity, equality, of freedom, of justice. so, i think that, you know, we -- following our instincts about which way the wind blows are the instincts of a democratic country, of a functional democracy. and i'm proud that that's true. i think, i want to say one last thing to annette's point about nothing we can do. the moment that we're in right now that is exciting and really complicated is that one of the things i have noticed is that there are some allies who don't believe that their white friends don't believe in our humanity. i have friends who believe in my humanity and i know people who don't. but what we need to do is activate the people who are sort of incredulous and don't believe that the other side are bad

actors. because that's the part that stops them from protecting democracy, protecting black and brown bodies and protecting other bodies in this country. and i think that's the work that i'm excited to figure out and you have to write the truth. books like yours and thoughtful, orderly truth telling are the way. but i do think that is a particular labor of this moment and i would be interested to know your thought about that. >> oh, i agree 100% with everything you say. we don't have time to play. i mean, because our lives are absolutely on the line all the time. this is not a joke. and this is serious. being in a democratic republican which suggests that the people are supposed to be sovereign. we're a part of the people. and we're going to do our part to make sure that all of this works. but i think you're right. i didn't think there was nothing that could be done, i just don't think the focus should be on

converting people. that we don't have the capacity to do that. people have to talk to one another about these kind of things. if there's any shot of, we talk about activating the people who don't believe that there's other people don't think we're human beings, we have to do that. but then they have to go out and they have to talk to their mothers, their fathers, their sisters and brothers and they have to stand up when they see injustice done to people of color and we'll do the same on the other side. i mean, we're always about, i think we've always been about this notion of equality and justice because it was denied to us. so, we've seen ourselves as on the vanguard of bringing that, making sure that is the part of the american ideal that they live up to, that we live up to. >> annette, thank you so much. the book is "on juneteenth" and we'll have more tomorrow. caroline randall williams, thank you, as well, for coming on this morning. up next, something very

different. we're celebrating the best in music as we look ahead to the announcement of the rock & roll hall of fame class of 2021. we're back in one minute. before discovering nexium 24hr to treat her frequent heartburn, marie could only imagine enjoying freshly squeezed orange juice. now no fruit is forbidden. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn? ♪♪ oooh, that's a low price. ♪♪ ooh, that's a low price. huh. that is a low price. what's a low price? ahh, that's a low price. can you let me shop? hmm, that's a low price. i can get you a new one tomorrow. at amazon, anytime is a good time to save. as your business changes, the united states postal service is changing with it.

with e-commerce that runs at the speed of now. next day and two-day shipping nationwide, and returns right from the doorstep. it's a whole new world out there. let's not keep it waiting. [sfx: kids laughing] [sfx: bikes passing] [sfx: fire truck siren] onstar, we see them. okay. mother and child in vehicle. mother is unable to exit the vehicle. injuries are unknown. thank you, onstar. ♪ my son, is he okay? your son's fine. thank you. there was something in the road... it's okay. you're safe now. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪ whip it good ♪ ♪ one by one hidden up my

sleeve ♪ ♪ yeah, we've got the beat ♪ ♪ good girls going bad, the city's filled with them ♪ ♪ i'm every woman ♪ ♪ and it's too late, baby ♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ rock the bell ♪ ♪ try us ♪ ♪ burn ♪ ♪ hello, it's me ♪ ♪ what's love got to do, got to do with it ♪ ♪ i know i'll never love this way again ♪ ♪ >> those are the 16 nominees for the rock 'n' roll hall of fame's class of 2021. in just one week we'll find out which musicians will be taking their place alongside rock's biggest icons. with us now to talk about this year's class, we have the president and the ceo of the rock 'n' roll hall of fame foundation joel perrisman and also with us the host and

executive producer of showtime's "the circus" and the heft of the hell and highwater podcast, from the recount john heilman. joel, what a class! there is great variety here and also, you wonder how the voters are going to be able to narrow it down. >> well, we're very proud of this year's class because i think it truly reflects the diversity of what everyone's definition of rock 'n' roll is. it's a broad bush of artists that are very diverse and there's something there for everyone. >> john hileman, in looking through this list, there is a broad brush from jay-z to todd rundgren, devo to carole king. there's a band for everybody, an act for everybody.

any personal favorites that stick out to you? >> it's one of the things every year, i'm a voter and thanks to the hall for the last, i don't know, seven, eight years, and i always post the nominees. we are sent this list and the class and we're allowed to choose five. i believe, joel will correct me if i'm wrong, they can put up to seven is the rule in a given year. >> right. >> you've got five picks. in this year's class there's way more than five they think are worthy of getting in. one of the most important things about this is the point about diversity which is i post this thing on social media, the ballot every year and there's always this incredibly tedious argument that these hip-hop acts shouldn't be in or this r and b group shouldn't be on this list, why is dionne warwick, why is devo? devo is not rock 'n' roll.

for some people the hall has made a decision to have a very diverse, a very broad church definition. so for me, when i go about filling out a ballot i'm often thinking about doing some strategic voting, try to vote for some people who i think need the vote and make sure the go-gos are on the ballot and the first girl rock group and i'll always have a hip-hop act and this year i'll vote for ll cool j who i think is a dead -- moral lock to get in. jay-z doesn't need my vote. if i go with a hip-hop act i'll go with ll who i think should be in. it's fun to be a part of the process. >> you talk about dionne warwick, and a lot of people don't remember dionne warwick

with burt bacarack and dismissed as middle of the road music and yet i can't tell you the number of rock musicians in the decades, through the decades and you talk to them through the interviews and oasis is a good example and they're, like, his songs that dionne warwick shaped my song writing. >> rock 'n' roll is a very broad definition. like i said, it means a lot of things to different people. i've always said, the people that established the rock 'n' roll hall of fame in this wonderful museum in cleveland looked at it as the art form of our generation. i might walk into the museum and want to see photographers like walker evans and someone wants

to see a picasso. someone likes dionne warwick and someone likes rage against the machine and it started in the same place and same river and it flowed into different tributaries and people have their favorites, they're passionate about their favorites and that's one of the beauty was rock 'n' roll. >> some people look at this list of nominees and how on god's green earth are tina fey -- tina turner not already in the rock 'n' roll hall of fame, but they are, do i have that right? >> tina turner was in with ike and carole king was in with her husband as a songwriter, and again, finally, they got their due as solo artists. we're not perfect. we're not basing anything on imperical self-formulas and it's subjective and finally they're getting their due, so finally,

they're weal overdue, and i think people will be happy about that and it will be well deserved. >> john heileman, and carole king, she's in as a songwriter. she had great albums throughout the '70s, but if you just look at tapestry, in '71, that is a cornerstone of american popular music and whoever that artist is that performed that was already in the rock 'n' roll hall of fame just on the power of that single game-changing album. i think that person should be in the hall. >> joe, i think there's obviously a strong case of carole king. she's already in the hall as a songwriter, so i think, you know, there will be a lot of people that will be really happy

as a performer, but this is the challenge of this thing. looka the this list. you can make a credible case for, i would say, almost everybody on the list to be in. so some of the challenging of voting is rage against the machine should be in the hall. should rage against the machine be in this class? i love rage against the machine and they'll be in eventually. you look at the dolls, if influence is the metric, usually a popular group and a massively influential group across a lot of genres and you could make the credible case for the new york dolls to be in, and devo to be in and fela is the most important international stars in the history of music. in terms of afro beat fela is as influential across the world as

almost anybody in the history of popular music. how could you not vote to get that guy in the hall. i'm curious if you do have an idea, if you could vote what would your five be? >> i do. i am voting and i won't say exactly. the new york dolls a band that most people don't know about. the new york dolls shaped music not only in new york, across the world. they're just one of those bands like nirvana exploding in '91. it's one of those bands and it's hard to really put sort of a metric on their influence. same thing you were talking about so many of these other bands that were so influential, and devo, a band that people sort of laughed at when they first came out and man, you talk about a band that was influential as far as new wave

goes with that the ricks. there were so many great bands and tough choices. joel, we thank you so much for being with us and come back next week when the list is announced. we want to have the big debate then. okay -- okay, and i promise, when he comes back next week we'll have his audio up. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. the coverage right now hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it is wednesday, may 5th and there is a ton going on right now. as we come on air this morning facebook is announcing its decision on whether or not to allow former president donald trump back on their platform. at the very same time over in washington new reports on who might be in line to replace liz cheney as one of the top republicans in the house if the party votes