>> and john i know is a music fan, you can catch him around jazzfests and other things. if you follow the rules and stay safe and get vaccinated, as perry says, we can party in person soon. thanks to both of you. "the reidout" is up next. good evening, everybody, we begin "the reidout" tonight with the man who sold america, whose big sales pitch in 2016 branded him as the working class billionaire. and that pitch, which was really a scam, convinced millions of american voters to elect the guy they mostly knew from watching him step off private planes into a gold-toileted trump airplane.

donald trump, as this champion of the little guy, it was just a mask. those hordes of red-capped workers, according to people who knew him well like howard stern, trump despised those people. he called them disgusting. and even before the pandemic, factories shuttered and manufacturing jobs faded, including at plants like foxconn that trump vowed to make great again and blue collar voters watched as trump signed into law a gargantuan tax cut that lined the pockets of the rich as well as big corporations and fat cat donors. he even boasted about making his rich friends richer while partying at his florida resort home. 80 million americans said no, thanks but no thanks. the republican party lost the white house, the house, and the senate.

the party still desperately relies on trump's mask because that whole thing about the gop being about tax cuts which is been their prime directive for the gilded age, trump ripped that film off, exposing the party for what it's really about, that is resentment, rage, panic, and fear for the little guy, and absolute power for beltway republicans and their billionaire corporate friends. the republicans now need trump to keep the ruse going and keep the base believing that they're something that they're not. and they're doing media tours in which they basically just admit it. >> i would just say to my republican colleagues, can we move forward, uh, without president trump? the answer is no. i've always liked liz cheney but she's made a determination that the republican party can't grow with president trump.

i've determined we can't grow without him. >> we have to work with president trump to win back the majority. we need fighters. president trump is a fighter on behalf of the american people, and voters want fighters to stand up for them, and that's what i'm committed to doing. >> republicans are basically war hawks and blue bloods. they think they need trump because they don't have a strategy to win the midterms against a party and a president that are actually doing something that's pretty radical in american politics, giving middle and working class and poor folks real money and proposing to make the super rich pay their fair share for once. so this is the strategy. but because trump couldn't get reelected, republicans are also escalating their movement to restrict voting in future elections because it's the only way that they can win. so there you have it. the mask of fake populism, suppressing your vote and dismantling democracy, all so the republicans can hold on, cling to power, which is the only thing this shell of a party

is about. the party of paul ryan, john boehner, mitt romney. that mask is off. it's now this. matt gaetz and margie q. kicking off their super spreader tour where they're expected to highlight their deep loyalty to the leader. it's also kevin mccarthy, the house minority leader, who has sworn so much allegiance to trump that he's affectionately known as this. >> chairman mccarthy, where's kevin? there's my kevin. our kevin. do we love kevin? what a job. >> that's why "my kevin" is working to purge the republican leadership of elected lawmakers who won't kiss the ring on trump's baby-sized finger, to secure power for himself, for kevin mccarthy, not for anybody else, should republicans win control in next year's elections. joining me now is republican

strategist susan del percio and fernand amanti. susan, the greatest trick the republicans have pulled is to convince working class people that they have any interest in them. my father was a republican. they were about tax cuts for the rich, tax cuts for big corporations, and deregulating oil and big business. that's it. to show you how much they're willing to pretend, here is elise stefanik, she's been on steve bannon's war room, on america first with sebastian gorka, on the rush limbaugh show hosted by jason lewis. here is the real elise stefanik in 2015 and 2016, talking about trump. here she is. >> certain statements by mr. trump, uh, especially related to not allowing muslims in the

country, i don't think that's who we are, that's not according to our constitutional principles. i think he has been insulting to women. in the presidential field there are some candidates who over the long run, and they've already started this process, are somewhat disqualifying themselves with untruthful statements. >> susan, it's all a fraud, right? >> well, especially with elise stefanik. joy, you and i have had this conversation for ten years about republican messaging. the way they fight is always based on taking a bit of messaging and really running with it. the thing is, this time around there is no messaging. they're not even running on any of the principles they thought to have, which is also one of the reasons i'm so surprised, is republicans keep talking about being for, and i should highlight, the white working class, because that's the only people they care about, that

chuck schumer hasn't started putting some votes on the floor for them to take. why not vote on a $15 minimum wage? why not break out things on biden's infrastructure proposal and have votes on working families' needs to have childcare, for example. these are all tactics i'm surprised that, frankly, the democrats aren't using, because the republicans literally do not have one policy that they have put forward. and the thing that makes it particularly difficult for them right now is, as you know, the party that's out of power tends to harness that anger of the person who's in power in the white house. people aren't angry at joe biden. so that leaves the republicans with mr. potato head and dr. seuss. you see people turning themselves inside out like elise stefanik just to have the only chance. this is it for her. this is all she will achieve in her political career. and then that's it.

and as far as kevin mccarthy goes, let me just give him this name. jeff sessions. remember how fond president trump was of jeff sessions? kevin doesn't think that "my kevin" will turn into "who, kevin?" very quickly, he's out too. >> trump doesn't care about anybody, maybe ivanka. fernand, i'm so glad my team found this, i thought this was the most powerful piece of advertising not just in the 2016 election but frankly that i've seen maybe since i started doing politics and media. this was a little piece of an ad that its technical title is rebuilding america now but i call it the man of steel. i saw this all over tv in pennsylvania, in ohio, on local news, whenever i would travel there during the election in 2016. take a listen. >> we're going to be working again. we're going to have great jobs again. we're going to make america

great again for everyone. greater than ever before. >> that was by a super pac. the thing about the messaging that's so simple and the opportunity, as susan just pointed out for biden, is he's shots and checks, right? he's getting you shots and he's getting you checks, it's the simplest working class message ever, i don't know why they're not running ads on that every day. the republicans are saying, do immigrants make you uncomfortable, do blacks make you uncomfortable? that's what we're going to give you. what do you make of the two parties' strategies at this point? >> let's start with the republican strategy, joy. that was a very effective message during the campaign, as you said, joy. as you talked about earlier, the mask is now off. with the mask being off, we know the republicans who want to hold on to power for the sake of power, which is the animating principle of the republican party bar none, they're not

fools, they're polling, they're testing, they're looking at what messages they have and they can access to hold on to their base. now, a less cynical approach might say, well, look, elise stefanik, matt gaetz, marjorie taylor between, they're acting this way because they're playing the fealty card to the leader, trump, because they're trying to avoid a primary challenge where they'll lose their seats and lose their opportunity to be at the trough and get all the perks of being a d.c. beltway insider. it's not the stefaniks and the gaetzes. lindsey graham, we see him doubling down, quadrupling down on this man. when you look at that coupled

with what's happening in arizona right now, this sham fraudulent recounting, all that's done for is to diminish american institutions, what's happening in my state of florida and in georgia. they're upending voter restrictions and voter rights to make it that much harder to vote. this is full-on authoritarianism. i know it sounds a little scary and hyperbolic but it's what it is. unless joe biden and the democrats seize in on that as the most important point, i don't think we can count on the electoral results of 2024 and beyond to satisfy whatever a democratic message might be to voters now, because they're not playing that game, they're playing the game of holding on to power for the sake of power even if it means throwing american democracy overboard in the process. >> ann applebaum has talked about this, the same play was tried in poland, viktor orban. it is a tactic of saying, the

problem isn't that you don't have sufficient money in your bank account or that you don't have a job that pays you enough to pay your rent. the problem is these other people. if we could just get them out of here, these immigrants are the problem, these muslims are the problem, these black folks, that's your real problem, and it's a distraction. but then there's also that piece of saying the big lie and that everyone in the party must say the big lie, must show their fealty by repeating the big lie. it's weird how, susan, the republican party has sort of turned into what right wing european parties are like, because there is that big lie. arizona, the guy who's running this fake audit, he has a fact sheet, rachel maddow did an excellent piece on this last night, he has a fact sheet that says the core wherever used by dominion, which is the second largest u.s. voting machine vendor, it's merged basically with smartmatic that he says is founded in communist venezuela

with links to hugo chavez and the chinese government in 1963 plotted to take over america without firing a shot, basically saying in china in 1963 they plotted trump's overthrow, that sounds just bananas, but that's now just regular basic orthodoxy in the republican party. >> yeah, and it is something that they keep putting out there because there seems to be an appetite. you know, the problem isn't just donald trump, because trump was defeated. and it's not even that donald trump is living within the state parties or the local level parties. it's trumpism that is thriving now. >> right. >> it's that concept, it's that authoritarianism, it's that us versus them. and that's a really important thing, when you start seeing how things are playing out, and i wrote about this earlier this week, that the worst is yet to come, because those people who are in the party, at the republican party, at that grassroots level, are putting in

the worst people to go up the line, the chain of command, if you will. and that's where it falls apart. >> and that's a where it gets dangerous. fernand, you know this well, our backgrounds are in countries that have seen this already happen. give us a warning, because if people care more about this freak show and about these distractions and the big lie and fealty to that, then they do about checks and shots, it's hard for me to believe that but there are people who do. >> i mean, look, again, it's going to sound over the top on a friday night when we all want to kind of hang out and party and get into the weekend, believe me, i'm there with you all. but the big lie, think about what the big lie in germany was in the late 1930s and '40s, that the european jewish community was the cause of the economic problems and the devastation that germany was experiencing at the time. that big lie was enough to sway the political class, the economic class, and the working class of germany to buy in full

scale into authoritarianism. the use of the big lie now and the pretence that the big lie is truth, and so many in the republican party are now saying either accept the big lie or you're out, that is the most disturbing, frightening thing. and again, my parents and grandparents were forced to leave their country in cuba because of this type of big lie, this authoritarianism, joy, i know your family is the same. this is unique to the american experience, we've been blessed, it hasn't happened in the past here, in it's happening now, and we need to pay attention. we need to hope and trust the democratic leaders in washington are aware of what's happening in this country. >> these guys, the mitch mcconnell and the kevin mccarthys, if they really cared about working people, they would have voted for the money you got. that $1,400 in unemployment

benefits, the childcare money you'll get this summer, none of them voted for it because they don't care about that, they only care about power. i think that's the other big lie and democrats need to talk about it. have a great weekend, despite it all. rudy giuliani is pinching pennies amid growing legal and financial hassles starting with pink slips for his entourage. if he's expected from the "not as rich as he says he is" florida man, he better think again. michelle obama speaks out on the chauvin verdict. and trump courting violent extremists. the insurrection itself was much worse but the bs arguments those insurrectionists are using to try to avoid paying the consequences are easily tonight's absolute worst. "the reidout" returns after this. she'll want a plan to reach them.

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new reporting this week suggests that trump fixer rudy giuliani may be cash-strapped as he faces a criminal investigation and two defamation lawsuits. now the disgraced former mayor has, gasp, cut down his entourage, laying off several staffers and independent contractors in the last few weeks, that's according to politico which reports that giuliani no longer moves around manhattan with the full complement of as many as five people he has kept around him in recent years. a person familiar with the matter says his former employees were told that the former new york mayor was seeking to cut costs. "the new york times" also reported this week that the former new york mayor's advisers want donald trump to use his $250 million war chest to pay for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. however, people close to trump said that he was stridently refusing to do so. i mean, he doesn't pay his bills. we also know giuliani is not

exactly frugal when it comes to his spending habits. politico reports one of the ex-wives of the man who made millions monetizing his post-9/11 reputation has alleged in court filings that rudy has shelled out tens of thousands of dollars on a private jet service, and that he spent $12,000 on cigars alone. it's been well-reported he's a high roller at the new york cigar club, the havana room. on top of that, he pays $42,000 a month in alimony to his third ex-wife, according to "the washington post." the latest reporting on giuliani's financial difficulties comes after the federal investigation of giuliani's dealings in ukraine intensified last week with the fbi's raid of his apartment. there's no telling what prosecutors may uncover on the electronic devices they seized. now george conway writes in a "washington post" op-ed said trump may want to rethink stiffing giuliani on those

bills. that's because if giuliani has anything to offer prosecutors to save himself, it would have to be trump, the only big fish left. joining me is michael trump, the author of "disloyal" and someone who knows very well what it feels like to be thrown under the bus by the donald. the son of giuliani, andrew giuliani, here is his advice. >> do you expect your father might get some help from trump's legal defense fund? >> i do think he should be indemnified, all those americans who donated after november 3, they were donating for the legal defense fund. my father ran the legal team at that point. >> i'm not sure what he means by indemnify. what do you make of that? it sounds to me like if he gets stiffed, maybe andrew's dad might tell. >> okay, so let me be very clear. he's going to get stiffed. all right? donald trump, as you properly

alluded to, does not pay legal bills. nor does he learn from his previous mistakes, which is the same exact thing he did to me. he doesn't care about anyone or anything other than himself. now, as we also know, they took advantage of a lot of individuals who were donating to the various different trump pacs or funds and that they had them constantly on the replenishment month by month and now they have to return that. so it's not $250 million anymore. now, donald in his crazy mind actually believed that that was now his money and that he could do with it as he wished. so the chances that he's going to part with a single dollar, knowing that it's going to cost several millions of dollars in order to put together a proper team, which by the way, the people he has right now are not capable of doing it. it took 26 people to go through my 14 million documents, literally, round the clock,

because the judge demanded that we have it done within 45 days. now, i don't know how fast they're required to do it. but it takes a very sophisticated and a very significant computerized organization in order to go through everything that's on these devices. and i'm sure that there's a multitude of things they're going to try to keep out of the hands of the sdny under the guys of attorney/client privilege. and unfortunately, those then come with motions and then, you know, oppositions and so on. the saddest thing for -- i should say the good thing is that, sad for rudy, good for the rest of us, it's not going to work, because guaranteed, the information that they find is going to all be illegal, so it's not protected information. it's under the crime fraud exception rule. and if it's not the crime fraud exception rule, i'm sure rudy added other people and cc'd on

these communications to people like jared, ivanka, don, or somebody else who aren't lawyers, there be breaking the chain of attorney/client privilege. i mean, he's just dopey. >> are you surprised? rudy giuliani used to be a federal prosecutor. he used to be mayor of new york, you know, one of the biggest cities in the world. are you surprised that he took the trump job, after having publicly, at least from what we heard, wanting like $20,000 a week, not getting it, and basically did all of that that he did on what, on contingency, are you surprised he didn't try to get paid up front? didn't he know -- >> joy, i hate to correct you, but it was $20,000 a day. >> a day. >> and he actually thought -- a day. he thought donald trump was going to pay him $140,000 a day. he has a better chance of sling shooting himself to the moon.

it's impossible. donald trump wouldn't pay him two cents, because his feeling is, it is an honor and a privilege to go to prison for him, to do his dirty work, and as long as rudy kept, you know, patting the backside of donald trump and kissing the ring, i would like to say something else, but kissing the ring of donald trump, then he was well within the orbit. so what did to dopey rudy do? he went around the world, selling the service of america to foreign organizations and countries. that's how he was going to make his money. he was using donald and donald was using him. so donald never had -- he never had the thought in his mind that he was over going to pay rudy. and listening to andrew, who may be dumber than eric trump, talk about this nonsense, it's funny to me. it's funny. the last time i said on another show, the last time i saw andrew, he was giving a golf lesson on trump's golf course.

that's where he should be right now, instead of out there talking for his father. his father should say nothing. andrew should be saying nothing. they should be sitting down right now with prosecutors. because rudy knows exactly how the game is going to go. he created the rules. he created the rules to go after organized crime. and they're going to use the same playbook that he created against him. and it works, because they squeeze you, and they know that rudy right now is financially strapped. so when you're financially strapped, how are you going to pay the millions of dollars? you think dershowitz is going to work for free or this guy bob costello, the other two lawyers that he brought on? by the way, none of them are capable of becoming a team. they may know how to do it but not when you have millions of documents. it really requires a very sophisticated computerized system to go through each and

every one of the documents. >> and of course we know that alan dershowitz, jeffrey epstein, some of his previous clients, donald trump. let me play rudy giuliani saying he had an insurance policy. this is in 2019. take a listen. >> i've seen things written like, he's going to throw me under the bus. i say, he isn't, but i have insurance. >> does he have an insurance policy? does that sound realistic to you? >> i mean, no. so i made an under the bus club, i welcome rudy to the under the bus club. what his insurance is, i don't know, geico, state farm, allstate, who the hell knows what he's talking about. the problem with rudy is he drinks like a maniac and the worst thing to do is drink and go on television. he's stupid, right, in order to

drink the way that he does, and he's more stupid to come on shows like yours or others trying to prove a point that he is absolutely guilty of. and all he's doing is just creating more harm and giving donald more of a reason why not to pay. it's just the way it works. welcome to the under the bus club, rudy. >> michael cohen, you never disappoint, my friend, when you come on the show. wow, i'm going to think about that, i'm going to ruminate on that for probably the rest of the show. michael cohen, thank you very much, have a great weekend, take care. wow. okay, then. michelle obama's brand-new and very personal comments on the derek chauvin verdict. as a federal grand jury hands down a new indictment on the four ex-officers involved in george floyd's murder. all the details, next. stay with us. derriere discomfort. we try to soothe it with this. cool it with this. and relieve it with this. but preparation h soothing relief

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♪ because it's time. ♪ ♪ yeah. ♪ ♪ time for grilled cheese. ♪ for skin that never holds you back don't settle for silver #1 for diabetic dry skin* #1 for psoriasis symptom relief* and #1 for eczema symptom relief* gold bond champion your skin we know that while we're all breathing a sigh of relief over the verdict, there's still work to be done. and so we can't sort of say, great, that happened, let's move on. i know that people in the black community don't feel that way. >> former first lady michelle obama spoke out this morning about the verdict in the derek chauvin murder trial. she went on to discuss her own fears for her two daughters any time they get into a car by themselves. meanwhile, there's major news out of minneapolis today with a federal grand jury indicting

chauvin and three of his fellow former officers on civil rights charges in the killing of george floyd. chauvin is charged for his excessive use of force against floyd. two of the other officers are charged for not intervening to stop chauvin. all four are charged with not providing floyd any medical aid. chauvin also faces a separate indictment from a 2017 where he struck a 14-year-old boy twice in the head with a flashlight and held his knee on his back and neck for 17 minutes. mr. henderson, former prosecutor, thanks for being here, great to be able to talk to you. can you talk about the significance of these charges on top of the charges these officers are facing? would it enhance their time in federal prison? would it be concurrent? what do you think the significance is? >> first, joy, thanks for having me. the significance is hard to

overstate here, because every time i think michelle obama can't impress me anymore, she does. i'm so thankful of the way she spoke up here, because we've seen so many videos now of wrongful police killings. they have become the norm in terms of our expectation for justice. the thought literally has become, if they didn't kill someone, nothing is likely to happen. for every one of these videos, there are even more civil rights violations. and if anyone demonstrates why that matters, it's derek chauvin. as we were just discussing, he assaulted a 14-year-old boy back in 2017. had he been held accountable back then, george floyd may very well still be alive. so at some point we have to move past responding to wrongful killings and conduct, to preventing it. that's why these charges are so important. they will probably have an impact on what derek chauvin decides to do moving forward. if he wants to enter into a plea agreement or persist with his appeals or perhaps a possible

trial. they're not necessarily likely to increase the overall amount of time that he does. but that's kind of a complicated answer, because at the end of the day, it does provide him right now with an incentives to enter a plea agreement which would be beneficial to both. >> very interesting, because i think about some of these other cases, and you're right, i mean, the search for criminal justice reform and improving this is not just about police. it's also about prosecutors who tend to be very reluctant to hold police officers accountable, right? you think about this case in the andrew brown jr. situation, where the judge, just based on his own facebook posts, where he's like, george zimmerman, it was great he got acquitted and he has all this pro-police paraphernalia on his facebook, and he says, you guys only get to see 20 seconds, 20 minutes, i'm going to limit how much you see. it doesn't feel like it's fair. he's an extreme version of what americans worry about, that

prosecutors are in bed with the police when it comes to misconduct. >> joy, you're right. i think you're being fair by calling him an extreme case. i think he's actually closer to the norm. one of the things that the george floyd trial and the derek chauvin trial for killing george floyd, it brought in arguments that are going to surface in other books. rayshard brooks will involve harder discussions, daunte wright will involve harder discussions. we tend to talk about legal standards and burdens of proof when what wins court cases tends to be people, not details of the law. that starts with the commitment of the prosecutors handling the cases. it's about time we start seeing justice when people are wrongfully killed or when their civil rights are violated. >> and it strikes me that keith ellison had to take that case over for us to get the prosecution of derek chauvin and

the other officers. the local prosecutor, maybe developed done it eventually, but that's not what happened. >> that's one of the fears i have about this trial, is that any other day of the week, anyone who is not a police officer, this is not a difficult trial to win. but it took a herculean effort to get a victory in that case. we had to have private lawyers from big law firms substitute in for professional prosecutors. you had to have exceptional expert witnesses who volunteered their time for free. that's simply not sustainable in every single one of the cases that we see, and it shouldn't have to be. part of what has to happen is, we have to change the culture of how we look at these types of cases. and that's part of what the justice department is providing right now. >> that is such a smart point, it's so important. it can't be this herculean every time. david henderson, thank you so much, have a great weekend. now from trump, hypnotize me, to a made-up medical

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it's been four months almost to the day since the mob of maga insurrectionists laid siege to our nation's capitol. while arrests and charges are still ongoing, legal proceedings this week showed off more of the bad, the worst, and the absolute worst. remember the zip tie guy? he's asking permission to call his mom on mother's day. how sweet. he's currently barred from speaking to her because she's his co-defendant. these two are awaiting trial on charges of entering a restricted area and violent entry. they were released to custody in march.

meanwhile, a zoom hearing for two other insurrectionists yesterday went totally off the rails. landon copland tried to breach a police line, tried to take a police shield and threw a metal barricade fence at officers. at a zoom hearing this week he screamed "f all of you, is any of this negotiable?" copland interrupted another hearing with his outburst and the judge ordered him to be evaluated for mental competency. that brings us to another alleged seditionist at the hearing. prosecutors allowed anthony antonio was seen using a bullhorn to tell the crowd they were not leaving until we get our way. and pushing against officers protecting a tunnel. and also squirting water and throwing a water bottle in the direction of metropolitan police officers michael finone as he

was dragged downstairs. his lawyer argued, this is not a joke, that antonio became hooked with what i call foxitis or fox mania and started believing what was being fed to him. antonio spent hours watching fox. the content churning out of the how was murdoch is about as toxic as it gets, maybe even dangerously toxic. but claiming fox made me do it is a pretty novel defense. but here is some of what antonio might have seen if he tuned into the channel in the nights leading up to the siege. >> if we don't fight on january 6th on the floor of the senate and the house, that is the joint meeting of congress, on these electors, we're done. >> wouldn't it be criminal for these republicans, particularly

republican senators who are saying they will not step forward, to tell -- to tell their, uh, states, their constituencies, that they don't really care whether the election was stolen or not? >> we'll see how foxitis or fox mania works as a legal defense or if anyone from the network responds, perhaps with another reminder not to take what they do as news. right, tucker? >> ninja foodi air fry oven. make family-sized meals fast. and because it's a ninja foodi, it can do things no other oven can, like flip away. the ninja foodi air fry oven, the oven that crisps and flips away.

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xfinity internet customers, take the savings challenge at xfinitymobile.com/mysavings. or visit and xfinity store to learn how our switch squad makes it easy to switch and save hundreds. . critical race theory is racism, more broadly it is the latest attempt by the most privileged people in our society, the celebrities, politicians, college professor, talk show hosts, to put the

blame of the mismanagement of the country onto the people below them. >> this is a marksist racist ideology born in the 1970s. >> too many teachers don't want to be in the classroom at all, or when they are in the classroom they're advancing poisonous views about our founding, our history and traditional family values. >> gqp and their allies at the bs factory are obsessed with lying at critical race theory. states are passing vague legislation that prohibits race theory or divisive concepts. it's hypocritical about folks that freak out ant cancel culture to cancel an idea they don't like. why let logic get in the way of culture wars, the tennessee general assembly banned race theory in the state. arizona is on its way to doing the same. threatening to fine teachers

already underpaid $5,000 if they break the law. none of this should shock you, why would the republican party want to have a factual conversation about race, gender and equity, when their most pressing issue today is pushing the big lie. joining me now is jon meacham, presidential historian and the host of fate of fact podcast. which i'm excited about. john, the call to jones behind the 1960 project, tweeted a series of quotes, saying history is one of two things, it's either information or it's palliative to sort of create patriotism and make people feel good. to me american history has been taught as the latter. all of my adult life and way long before that, why do you think people are freaking out so much that people want to teach it as accurate fact? >> yeah. i will say this, as a native tennesseean and a resident of the state, 1925 we decided to

not teach another theory called evolution. and that didn't work out very well in the long run. so whenever the tennessee legislature gets into trying to ban free speech and the exploration of new ideas, we should be very wary. look, there's -- it's possible that the pendulum, the spectrum for informed, reason-based conversation could be out of whack, but it's been out of whack on the white -- prevailing white narrative for more than 2 1/2 centuries. so the fact that critical race theory, and the 1619 project, are part of the conversation now is, in fact, what the founders wanted. right? the american revolution was not least about giving reason a

fighting chance in the arena of ideas and governance, with appetite, ambition and passion. i believe, and a lot of folks don't, but i believe that america fundamentally was an enlightenment era project, to take the world from being organized vertically, where popes and princes and kings who by an accident of birth or an incident of election had reflexive authority over all of us to turning into a more horizontal one where, in fact, we had the individual capacity to determine our own destinies, you and i know, and everybody listening knows, that that was not complete, that that was an aspiration, that was not fulfilled, and has not been fully fulfilled, even into this hour. but the greatness of the country is not that there's some static moment, where we take our story and our reality back to, the

greatness of the country is that we have the capacity to use reason and conscience and history and faith to build a more perfect and better union. and there are a lot of folks who think that the union is inherently corrupt. i don't believe that anymore than the union is corrupt insofar as human beings are corrupt. and, you know, we have a debate going on here, that's not unlike the 1850s when william lloyd garcon burned a copy of the constitution. and said it was a pact with the devil. and frederick douglass said no, there's no soil as conducive to the growth of reform as american soil. and, you know, douglass is a fascinating figure, like all gullible people, thought different things at different times. but that's where we have to be is that this is an ongoing struggle, and you should not be banning and shutting down

conversations that you find uncomfortable. >> but here's the thing. the enlightenment project that the founders embarked upon was embarked upon, in fairness, for themselves, it was an every man a king, as you said, where the king could be removed. but here's the thing, if you create a country, and the purpose of that is to liberate yourself, and you build that on a foundation of saying, but i also can negate the humanity of these black people because i want to own them, and i can negate the humanity of these indigenous people because i want their land, you build something in that we need to reckon with, and so i understand why for a lot of people they take our history negatively personally, it's not an indictment, it's just history. but i want to take you to what -- she said about mitch mcconnell. take a listen. >> 1619 was an important date for mitch mcconnell's own family because hi own family left virginia, came to alabama to

start forced labor plantations, owned dozens of other human beings and his own wealth and status was acquired because of the legacy of slavery. >> tom cotton same thing, his family wealth was built on enslavement. is this that individuals who oppose the idea of rethinking history, not from the vantage point of the winners, which are white christian men, but from the vantage point of everyone else, and that's all critical race theory is doing is saying let's look at the vantage point of the other people who were there. and let's incorporate that. >> yeah. >> because look, if people who look like me thought america was irredeemable, we wouldn't fight for civil rights, we wouldn't care. is it that people are taking it personal, and saying if i look at this history, i might have to be accountable for what i have? >> i think you've done a deft bit of psychological analysis there, absolutely. and people who look like me, you

know, i'm a boringly heterosexual white southern male episcopalian, things tend to work out for me in this country but to whom much is given, much is expected. and my view is that if you are not open to ideas that are uncomfortable, then you are not living up to what the country and the western world, just limit it to that for a second, has been built on. and this is not to say -- history's not a bedtime story. it's not a fairy tale. >> yes. >> there was never a once upon a time. and there's never going to be a happily ever after because it's a human undertaking and we are all flawed, fallen and fallible. we have to confront that. >> yeah. >> you know, i understand -- i understand how people are sort of reacting to this. but if you're reacting in good conscience, you're not banning something, right?

>> that's right. >> you debate it. >> that's correct. and if -- yes. >> you don't shove it out. >> that's right, history is not a bedtime story. i'm going to use that. >> so let's debate it. >> by the way, your podcast is called "fate of fact," it's going to explore the question of how fear conquered truth and -- the culture of polarization with emphasis on whooig why the right is breaking with the governing consensus. the conversation between roosevelt and reagan. i love this idea. i will be listening to your podcast. thank you so much. you are anything but boring, my friend, thank you for being here, that's jon meacham, "all in" with chris hayes starts now. tonight on "all in". >> how do you grow the party with donald trump saying most illegal immigrants are rapists and drug dealers? >> lindsey graham finally answers his own question. >> can we move forward without president trump? i've determined we can't grow without him. >> tonight the