does liz cheney do next? and again, we talked about this a little earlier in the broadcast, is there a constituency there, specially in the wake of insurrection that could support some growing movement that exists outside of the trump party? they could call it the republican party. they could call it something else because as we know the republican party is now, in fact, the trump party. that is what we're going to see happen today. thank you for getting up "way too early" with us. don't go anywhere, "morning joe" starts right now. >> dr. fauci, do you support hin funding of the lab in wuhan. >> senator paul, with all due respect, you are entirely and completely incorrect that the nih has not ever and does not now fund, gain a function research in the wuhan institute. >> government scientists like yourself who favor gain of function --

>> i don't favor gain of function research in china. you're saying things that are not correct. >> you're fooling with mother nature here. you're allowing super viruses to be created with a 15% mortality. it's very dangerous. and is a huge mistake to share this with china and a huge mistake to allow this to continue in the united states. we should be very careful to investigate where this virus came from. >> i fully agree you should investigate where the virus came from, but again we have not funded gain of function research on this virus in the wuhan institute of virology no matter how many times -- >> you're parsing words. there was research -- >> ripped from the pages of qanon. >> why is he doing this to himself? >> i don't know why he does. it's really strange. >> it's more than strange. it's disturbing. it's part of a bigger picture. dr. anthony fauci pushing back on saturday rand paul's allegation that the national institutes of health had been

funding the chinese lab in wuhan. >> willie, we have been watching this now for six months. it's really strange that a guy that has a doctor at the front of his name for some reason seems to go further out there than anybody else. here basically, you know, sounding like some qanon protagonist. >> rand paul is a doctor. dr. fauci is the chief boogieman for conspiracy theories. we know this. we've known this for over a year. there are all kinds of theories. we don't need to run through them again. but they're not just in the darkest corners of the internet. they found their way on to prominent cable news shows where dr. fauci is being called a criminal. there should be investigations into them and what you see in our culture now is that talk online and on cable news spill over into congress where a united states senator is willing to take those ideas and those theories, run with them and confront dr. fauci himself with that information. those were extraordinary

exchanges yesterday. along with joe, willie and me, we have co-founder of punch bowl news, anna palmer, the host of nbc's politic nation and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. and white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire is at the white house for us this morning. good to you all. >> great to have you all. mika, i just got a sense last night when watching liz cheney that we were watching in one way or another a piece of history. it's not being mellow dramatic. as a conservative, you look back to those moments where somebody steps into the limelight and leads a movement. i think about reagan in 1966. i think about margaret thatcher in 1975 in britain. and her address before the conservative party. she sort of sweeps away the

lecturn. and shows everybody who is in control there. liz cheney could well be that person in 2021, but the question is for what party because the party that she's a member of, that i was a member of, that ronald reagan was a member of, that party no longer exists. it's a party that, well, forget about ideology. it's a party that's anti-democratic and that refuses and is taking its position, its future position is being a party that will refuse to accept democrats winning elections if they don't like the outcome, they won't accept the election results is certainly, certainly what it seems if you look at arizona and you look at what's happening in house of representatives with the

republican caucus. >> this was something incredible to watch. i've been in a huddle with the forbes team over the past few weeks looking at women over 50, thousands of submissions of remarkable women who have done remarkable things. but this is different. to see her standing out there alone, republicans left, they left the hall because they didn't want to be, i guess, rebuked or embarrassed, or they were too weak to sit there and listen to the truth. house republicans are expected to vote this morning to remove her, to get her out of their way. congresswoman liz cheney, from her post as conference chair. gop lawmakers will meet behind closed doors at 9:00 a.m. that's when a member will need to bring up a vote of no confidence against cheney. the vote will be held by secret ballot and a simple majority will be needed to remove her from her leadership position. last night, ahead of the vote, congresswoman cheney spoke on

the house floor. >> god has blessed america, mr. speaker. but our freedom only survives if we protect it. if we honor our oath taken before god in this chamber to support and defend the constitution. if we recognize threats to freedom when they arise. today we face a threat america has never seen before. a former president, who provoked a violent attack on this capitol, in an effort to steal the election has resumed his aggressive effort to convince americans that the election was stolen from him. he risks inciting further violence. millions of americans have been misled by the former president. they have heard only his words but not the truth. as he continuings to undermine our democratic process, sewing seeds of doubt about whether

democracy really works at all. i am a conservative republican, and the most conservative of conservative principles is reverence for the rule of law. the electoral college has voted. more than 60 state and federal courts including multiple judges the former president appointed have rejected his claims. the trump department of justice investigated the former president's claims of widespread fraud and found no evidence to support them. the election is over. that is the rule of law. that is our constitutional process. those who refuse to accept the rulings of our courts are at war with the constitution. our duty is clear. every one of us who has sworn the oath must act to prevent the unraveling of our democracy. this is not about policy. this is not about partisanship.

this is about our duty as americans. remaining silent and ignoring the lie emboldens the liar. i will not participate in that. i will not sit back and watch in silence while others lead our party down a path that abandons the rule of law and joins the former president's crusade to undermine our democracy. as the party of rang, republicans are championed democracy, won the cold war and defeated the soviet communists. today, america is on the cusp of another cold war, this time with communist china. attacks against our democratic process and the rule of law empower our adversaries and feed communist propaganda that american democracy is a failure. we must speak the truth. our election was not stolen and america has not failed.

i received a message last week from a gold star father who said standing up for the truth honors all who gave all. we must all strive to be worthy of the sacrifice of those who have died for our freedom. they are the patriots, katherine lee baits described in the words of "america the beautiful" when she wrote, oh beautiful for hero's proved in liberating strife. who more than self their country loved and mercy more than life. ultimately, mr. speaker, this is at the heart of what our oath requires. that we love our country more. that we love her so much that we will stand above politics to defend her. that we will do everything in our power to protect our constitution and our freedom that has been paid for by the blood of so many. we must love america so much

that we will never yield in her defense. that is our duty. thank you. >> so willie, freedom only survives if we protect it. we must speak the truth. the election was not stolen. america has not failed. and if donald trump's attempt to undermine democracy as liz cheney said on the floor of the people's house last night, she simply said, i will not participate. >> that had the feel of a political eulogy. it sounded like liz cheney was standing there remembering a party that no longer exists, talking about the cold war and ronald reagan and the bushes and everything else that came afterward and reminding conservatives none of whom were in the room they walked out except for congressman ken buck in colorado perhaps in shame, they didn't want to be confronted with her message, that she was reminding them of what it meant to be a

conservative, rule of law was at the top of the list. and anna palmer, as you listen to that, you can't help but think who else is with her. really in their hearts. most of them are going to vote against her at 9:00 a.m. this morning. knock her out of her leadership position. but i think part of the reason they didn't want to hear that message is because they know that she's right but they can't afford to come out and say it in public and dare cross donald trump, despite the fact that what she's standing up for is a free and fair election. saying that it was not stolen. joe biden is president. and donald trump is lying to you. >> yeah. i think she gives voice to where a lot of actual house republicans are when they talk privately to you they don't agree with what the former president is doing. but i think there's two calculations that house republicans have made. they're making the point that, one, in the short-term it is not good for them and their individual political gains to go up against this president. there's a real fear of the fact that donald trump might support

primary challenger. and the second is that her speaking like this is not helpful to them gaining the majority in 2022. i think the political calculation is very simple along those two lines. the big problem for house republicans is that liz cheney is going to speak like this. she's untethered. she won't be part of the leadership. have anything trying to reign her in. and she -- we have been talking to folks, i expect her to continue to speak like this plainly, loudly, on these same talking points for the weeks and months to come which will be a major problem for republicans. >> jonathan lemire, in february of 2016 i wrote a column for the washington post and in it i talked about when donald trump feigned ignorance of the kkk and when he feigned ignorance of david duke and even pretended he didn't know who david duke was.

at that point, it had become evident that the republican party was going all in for him. i asked the question at the end of that column in february of 2016, is this where the party of abraham lincoln dies? and time and time again over the past four years, i thought the republican party would turn away from donald trump, was wrong time and time again. and now this is where we've gotten where liz cheney stands alone on the house floor supporting the basic proposition that republicans should not embrace a big lie that they know is a big lie. that rudy giuliani admitted in federal court was a big lie. that donald trump's administration admitted it was a big lie when they said it was

the safest the most honest election, words to that effect ever run. and yet there is liz cheney standing on the house floor alone because republicans can't be seen with her telling the most basic of truths that every trump judge that was appointed to the supreme court, every trump judge that was appointed to the circuit courts, every trump judge that was appointed to the district courts all said the same thing. there was no widespread voter fraud. joe biden won this election. and yet for her simply repeating that truth, she's there alone making this declaration of conscience. >> it is incredible, joe, that we are here. what liz cheney stood up for last night is the foundation of our democracy.

the idea that we have fair and free elections and that we honor their results. and if you lose power, you step away from power. that is set in the very beginning. that is set from the very beginning of this constitution and this republic. and now that is under fire. and she defended the very basic principle and she stood, as you said, alone. and there have been so many moments where the republican party could have walked away from the big lie. they could have walked away from donald trump and they had their chance. it looked like for maybe 24 hours they might have. when january 6th happened. the insurrection at the capitol. the violent mob in donald trump's name stormed the citadel of democracy. lives were lost. and for 24 hours or so, it looked like republicans might use that as their breaking point. and at least a lot of them, if not all of them, would walk away from donald trump. those who have -- are absolutely in the minority. and his power over the party seems to have only grown in recent weeks. even though he lost.

the party has lost control of the house and the senate. but the republican party, the vast, vast majority of them are tethering themselves to him. and even if he's not a candidate again and there's real questions about that but what he stands for. his followers. trumpism. and part of what he stands for is not telling the truth and not honoring the results of an election. so liz cheney, yeah, as anna said, she'll be bounced quickly and quietly today. she's not going to go away. sh still going to tk out. there are a few other republicans, senator kinzinger, romney who join her in that but they are without question outnumbered and the others, the republicans who have tied themselves to trump, who keep propagating the big lie, they are only growing in number and they have complete sway over where this republican party is going in the 2022 and '24, making us all wonder will they ever honor the result of an election again. >> well, and that was the point that bob gates brought up on the show that one election is not

going to fix trumpism and what has happened to this country and that our place around the world is going to be viewed on how we handle things moving forward, do we slip back. latest piece for new york magazine is entitled "liz cheney's liberal are missing the piece." support for democracy ought to be separated from policy outcomes. republicans should not succumb to the temptation of siding with the would be awe her to tear ran merely because he promised to advance their policy goals. he'll undermine the constitution but give us low capital gains taxes and friendly judges is not a morally defensible trade-off. democracy is the one question not subject to horse-trading. when cheney's liberal critics place her support for democracy alongside her other positions they implicitly endorse the same

calculation made by her conservative opponents that the rule of law is another issue. the only way democracy survives is if both sides respect the outcome of a free and fair election as a precondition to all their other disagreements. democracy is a system for maintaining domestic peace. you make peace with your enemies, not your friends. >> you know, rev, this is such an important piece. it reminds me what i've learned over the past year and learned it. ann applebalm coming on your "morning joe"ed what we're experiencing now happened in 2014 and 2015 and started happening in hungary. we can look and see what's happened with the erosion of democracy. with the erosion of the rule of

law. in those european powers now. and it's very clear. they brag about being ill liberal democracies. and this is a battle now. we are in a political fight and it's between those who believe in democracy and those who believe in ill liberal democracy. and last night, regardless of what position she took in the past, just like regardless of positions that progressives took in the past that i did not like. those of us who believe in free and fair elections and don't want to lie about american democracy and lie about american institutions and don't want to lie about the last election being stolen, we're all on the same side. whether some progressives writing for the new york times like it or not. >> absolutely. we're on the side of democracy

and truth. now, we may have different interpretations of how we ought to handle that democracy and what we want to bring in the democratic process to win in a policy debate. but at the end of the day we all want democracy and we all want the will of the people and the majority of those people to be respected. what we're seeing happen this morning is really sad for all sides because we're seeing someone remove from a position of influence because they will not embrace a lie. we're not talking about a policy. we're not talking about a position. we're talking about you will not go along with what we know and have proven to be a lie therefore you are punishable. and i think the real question is if they continue in this vain, i think the writer is right.

will democracy mean anything at all? because when you can now say we will proclaim an election result to be what we say it is whether it is that or not you no longer have a democracy. you're being ruled by a mob on your way to an autocracy. and that is what is being decided 9:00 a.m. this morning whether they are going to continue to go that way. this is dick cheney's daughter. this is someone that voted over 90% with donald trump. and they would remove her because she won't go along with a lie? they have gone way beyond the pail here. >> she is so much more conservative than elise stefanik or whoever -- >> elise stefanik who wants to take her position. elise stefanik who wants to take her position. she's so much more conservative. but willie, as i've been saying for years, it doesn't matter if you're conservative or not, not

with these republicans. ideology stopped mattering a long time ago. it became about tribalism. i want to say about if you're a liberal out there and you want to write that op-ed about liz cheney and you don't forgive her, let me just let you know right now, you can write it if you think it's click bait. liz cheney doesn't care. >> that's not what this is about. >> in the immortal words of pete townsend, i'm sure she's not thinking about the immortal words of pete townsend. she's not made to be forgiven. people on twitter when i will say something conservative, idealogically about the budgets being too big or talk about how we need to toughen things up at the southern border. you're just the same as you've always been. willie, i never said i changed. i just support liberal democracy. liz cheney just supports liberal

democracy. bernie sanders just supports liberal democracy. elizabeth warren just supporting a liberal democracy. it's like a british war cabinet. yes, when things are not dire, winston churchill fought like hell. but when it was time to put a war cabinet together, that war cabinet came together and today liz cheney and democrats are all fighting this same fight. and they need to recognize that now as jonathan says or else we're all this big trouble. >> yeah. i think there are a lot of people signaling their virtue on twitter, she's bad and her dad is bad. what if we could do this, hold both ideas in your head. on the one hand you disagree with almost every vote she's

ever taken and all of her policy proposals and glad someone is standing up for the democracy of the country. one person at least is saying this was a free and fair election. it wasn't stolen. we ought to stop saying that. what if you could do that. let's bring into the conversation, senior political reporter for morning consult, eli yokley. there's a new poll on liz cheney's impending removal from her leadership position. eli, good morning. what do the numbers tell you about how republicans are feeling about this decision today? >> the numbers say republican voters want her gone. half of republican voters in our poll said the house republican conference should remove her today. only one in five republican voters said she should stay. there's a little divide among genders. trump voters were more likely than the average republican voter say she should go. her biggest block of supporters in this poll, democrats. 6 in 7 democrats said liz cheney

should stay on as conference chair. >> i guess these numbers aren't completely surprising given the level of support president trump still has within the republican party. what about the independent number there? what does that tell you? >> independents are on her side generally. liz cheney is not a popular figure within the republican party. a lot of support is coming from democrats to some extent who are supporting her bid. liz cheney lost the republican voters earlier this year. when she came into 2021, a lot of republican voters nationwide really didn't know who she was. after january 6th she came out for donald trump's impeachment and her numbers sunk among republican voters. similar thing happened with mitch mcconnell after the january 6th riots. his numbers sunk under water. but he has stopped talking about donald trump, the most popular man in republican politics and seen his stock rise with republican voters. liz cheney kept talking and it's stayed down. one of these jobs will keep their job at the end of the

today probably. >> anna palmer, there's more than just the national polls of republicans which actually show that an overwhelming number want her gone. there's also, of course, sort of the inside/outside game. it is awfully perilous for the republican house caucus to go off the side of the cliff when "the wall street journal" editorial page is blasting them for doing it, when peggy is blasting them for doing it. when business leaders are blasting them for doing it. when long-time establishment allies are blasting them for doing it. they ran afoul after january 6th and a lot of lobbying interests said they couldn't give money to house members for quite some time. this is a really isolating move

for kevin mccarthy. a really isolating move for this house gop caucus. have you talked to any leaders that understand that? >> i think it's reflective of the change of where the power base or house republicans in particular are. it's not those folks you just mentioned the typical when i came in almost 20 years ago to cover politics, it was what do business leaders think, what do some of those folks in "the wall street journal" editorial page think. most house republicans feel the base of the party, the enthusiasm of the party for donald trump isn't with people that aren't with that kind of establishment wing of the party. i think there is peril there in terms of the long-term value of the republican party and also when you look at what does this mean for elections going forward? donald trump has won one election. he lost the senate. he lost the house. and he lost georgia senate races

for republicans. this is going to be an issue they have to wrestle with going forward. >> eli, looking at these numbers and your reporting about where the republican party is right now n terms of where are you seeing -- it's never too early to look at 2022 and 2024 as to where some of the top contenders stand, where republicans see in terms of the map reclaiming perhaps majority next year in the mid terms but the trump effect as we pivot towards the next presidential election. how much of an overwhelming favorite is he if he were to run again and if he doesn't, what does the rest of the field look like? >> donald trump is the favorite in all the polling we have done. majority of republican voters say he should be the nominee and more say he should play a bigger role in the republican party. how does he reach these folks? he doesn't have twitter account or facebook. he has a blog but only one in five republican voters say they'll look for it according to

our latest poll. you listen to the campaigns right now, there's a candidate in ohio who launched his campaign based on impeachment. i'm here in missouri right now and reporting on the senate race. everybody is just looking for that donald trump endorsement. he's hanging over these candidates because they see the same polling we see that say 8 in 10 republican voters like this guy. they want him to be involved in this party. and that's going to hang over the campaigns of 2022 a lot. >> all right, eli, morning consult, thank you so much for bringing us those polls this morning. appreciate it. mika, let's underline what we're talking about here because it's been shot through the political prism so many times since january 6th. the subject has been changed so many times. we're talking about a lie that was born online. the flames were fanned by president trump. an attack on the united states capitol. there was an attack on the united states capitol, something we have not seen, of course, in our life times or many life times back. and now what we're seeing today is a vote against someone who is saying that's bad.

we can't allow that in our party. we can't allow that in our country. and she will stand alone with maybe a small handful of other republicans in saying that was a bad thing that happened. we can't allow it to happen again. she now is in the extreme, the mainstream position is january 6th was okay. >> well, washington is not well right now at all. later on in the show we're going to be talking about dialect kal thinking and the type of therapy that could help a lot of people. but in this case, liz cheney requires dialectcal thinking. you can be against her positions and all of her votes along the way, but you also can see her right now as a vision, a tiny ray of hope in what has become a sea of cowards, a sea of men and some women who are abandoning our constitution and our country. and that this sort of corruption has a grip of the republican

party and she is standing out as a ray of hope for our democracy. you can think two things at once about liz cheney, but if you believe in truth and our democracy, joe, you have to be able to see both of those things in order to see what she is doing right now. >> well, and that's what i've been doing for the past several years. i mean, you can -- if you're in my position, supporting what democrats do, that pushes donald trump back requires dialectical thinking. two things can be true at once. i can prove progressive economic policies would be ruinist to the united states of america. >> and we can argue that. >> and we can debate that. and i can say they spend too much money. they want to tax too much. they want to regulate too much. and lit undermine american democracy. but on the other side i can say -- >> at the same time, no but. >> i'm sorry.

will undermine not american democracy but will undermine america's economy. and throw millions and millions of people out of work. at the same time, i can say they're on my side when it comes to defending democracy, to pushing back against these conspiracy theories, to recognizing the election results, just like they did. the overwhelming majority of them did when george w. bush got elected twice. when george h.w. got elected, ronald reagan got elected twice. yes, we can hold two thoughts in our mind at the same time. >> and one might be more prevalent at the moment. i think that's where we're trying to help people understand what's at stake. i think people think because donald trump lost the election and some people might believe he didn't, that it's over. it's not over. in fact, the fact that this big lie continues is a bad sign. >> jonathan's point is so important, which is, if you

say -- oh, i'm not going to listen to liz cheney now because of all of these other votes she did in the past. then you're acting like republicans who are saying all things are equal. we are going to do whatever we can to get the judges we want in. get the taxes we want in, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, again, hold two separate thoughts in your mind and say if somebody is going to get elected president that you don't like, we have a system of checks and balances that will round off the sharp edges. that's what makes our country great. madisonian democracy. now we're in a battle whether we move forward with madisonian democracy or not. whether vote counts matter or not. and if you look at what republicans have been saying in arizona, if you look at what republicans have said in the house, they've just been ignoring reality.

and rev, speaking of ignoring reality. >> you're ignoring the commercial break. >> let's talk about the fact that anna palmer brought up a great point. think about this, this is crazy. donald trump has won one election. four and a half years ago. he's beaten the democrats once. and he didn't even win in the popular vote. he lost the popular vote twice. he's only one one election. and that was in 2016. then because he was in the white house, republicans got trashed at the polls in 2017. they took historic losses in 2018. they lost in 2019 southern governorships because of donald trump. then in 2020, yes, it was close. republicans outperformed expectations, but at the end of

the day, donald trump made the republicans lose the white house. donald trump made the republicans lose the senate in georgia and donald trump made republicans lose the house of representatives. so this is really if you want to look as far as one-term presidents go, one of the greatest all time losers in the history of american politics. and yet the rank and file republicans keep following him over the cliff. it would be like if, a church kept embracing a pastor as he lost half his congregation or she lost half her congregation. the choir quit. and they had to file for bankruptcy. they're like, yes. let's keep this guy in there. he's doing a great job. it's the same with donald trump's failing republican party. >> well, it would be when the church goes from being a church

to a cult. that's what the republican party is becoming. a cult. when you cannot look at reality because you are so lost in following something that is delusional, the best thing that has happened to the democrats has been donald trump. donald trump has single handedly given them the white house, the senate and the house of representatives. and let's remember he also lost the popular vote when he did win in '16. the only thing he won in '16 was the electoral college. if it had gone by the popular vote, he even lost there. so why are the republicans just worshipping this loser? he is a loser. the best thing that could happen for the democrats the mid terms is that donald trump remain the figure that the republicans are rallying around because he energizing the democratic base. people in communities that i've

worked in for decades have become awakened, enlightened and woke because of donald trump. if donald trump would go somewhere, we would have a hard time keeping them woke. i mean, and the move today will only further energize the very people that they do not want energized. they do not understand what made joe biden the biggest winner of votes for president, more than fdr, barack obama, john kennedy, lyndon johnson, donald trump. donald trump is a gift that keeps on giving. >> and it's damaging our country, too. still ahead on "morning joe," long lines at gas stations across the country as drivers race to fuel up following that major pipeline hack over the weekend. plus, our next guest is a primary care physician who makes the case for why outdoor masking is not necessary for children. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. k.

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starting tomorrow, new yorkers will be able to get the vaccine at subway and train stations, which sounds sterile. that's just what the subway needed, more random band aids and needles on the ground. mayor de blasio announced a list of incentives to get people vaccinated, including free food, free tickets to events and the opportunity for one lucky vaccinator to be starting quarterback for the new york jets this season. >> couldn't do any worse. the first doses of the pfizer vaccine for kids age 12 to 15 were given yesterday in georgia, delaware and arkansas. a day after the fda approved the vaccine for that age group. those states public health systems decided not to wait for

the final approval from the cdc's vaccine advisory committee. a decision that could come as early as today. right now it's an emergency use authorization. public health officials in georgia say they were worried that if they turned away young people who wanted the shot yesterday, those kids might not come back. more than a dozen states including new york, minnesota and texas say they will wait for the go-ahead from the committee and they're ready as soon as that approval comes down. the committee will be meeting today. states could begin vaccinating children as soon as wednesday and thursday. joining us now, practicing internist, mental health advocate, dr. lucy mcbride. great to see you again this morning. let me begin with the childhood vaccine. should parents be confident now in giving this to kids age 12 to 15? >> first, thanks for having me. it's great to be here again. i will have my 15-year-old daughter vaccinated because she wants it.

she has been marinating in fear for 14 months. the this will help her go to camp, go to school, engage in social activities without fear. that said, i think this should be a parent by parent, guardian by guard you know decision there's no one size fits all prescription for how to hand it will vaccine for this age group. we know that this age group is at very low risk for covid-19. yet, vaccinating them offers a public service and hastens the containment of the virus so that we can get on with our lives. >> so there are questions about the vaccine, which now as i said will be available this week, 12 to 15, but also about masking. you have a new piece in the atlantic titled why don't think kids need masks outside. parents gradually reap the rewards of vaccinations, they're wondering if they need to keep up pandemic precautions for their children's sake, although emergency use authorization for the pfizer vaccine was granted this week, for 12 to 15-year-olds, kids this age and under don't need to wait for

freedom through shots. they can and should enjoy some benefits of our collective progress. that's why i have begun telling my parents that their kids, vaccinated or not, do not need to wear masks outside. the big picture is that we're entering a new phase of the pandemic. as more than half of adults in the united states have received at least one vaccine dose and case rates drop, the risk of transmitting covid-19 to unvaccinated people also lowers. getting kids moving and reconnecting them with their friends is the evidence-based path toward restoring their health and their well being. dr. mcbride, as you know, as i know with kids, they've been in these masks for over a year now. why do you believe -- i'll let you flush this out a little bit, it's okay to start taking them off, at least outside. >> well, let's talk about the facts. the fact of the matter, willie s that outdoor transmission is exceedingly unlikely. there's actually no documented

case of sars-cov-2. passing by someone on the sidewalk or at an outdoor restaurant. it hasn't been documented. in fact f you talk to most epidemiologists and public health officials thought to be far less than 1%. and when the advantages, the social, emotional benefits are so huge, letting kids engage in their lives, letting them see the full range of facial expressions of their peers when those outweigh the minuscule risk of outdoor transmission, it's really time to put facts in the driver's seat of our behaviors and public policies and take fear out of the driver's seat. we need to stop exposing kids to unnecessary fear and an exaggerated risk of outdoor transmission because after all health is more than the absence of disease. it's about not getting sick and of course there will be parents who want to mask their kids

outside. there are high risk children. there are children who live with high risk adults. but in general, for most children, most anyone who is outdoors, the risk of outdoor transmission are so small and the benefits of moving on in the evidence-based way are enormously high. >> dr. mcbride, we have been so conditioned as a country to think of kids, adults, anybody in tight quarters that just being dangerous on its face. you look at playgrounds and a bunch of kids on a new york city playground and makes you cringe a little bit, but that's based on old thinking and old information. so what you're saying is not that we should get rid of masks all together and probably still be used in schools and inside cabins at camp, but as long as you're outside you believe it's okay not to wear the mask. >> indoors is a different story. we know the virus thrives indoors in crowded conditions and spreads among unvaccinated people.

so the risk is still there of covid. we have tens of thousands of cases every year and the cdc is naturally concerned about on going community spread. at the same time, we are in a transition phase. we're in a very different stage of the pandemic right now where case rates are going down. we have shots going into arms every minute of the day. and as we contain the virus, the risk to all of us, vaccinated and unvaccinated goes down. outdoors is safe. we need to get out there. >> all right. dr. lucy mcbride says take off the mask outside for the kids. it's time. and also thinking about mental health there, too. dr. mcbride, always great to see you. thank you so much for your time. mika? all right. to the economy now. u.s. employers posted a record number of job openings in march, reaching a level of 8.1 million. the number reflects a widening gap between open positions and workers willing and able to take those roles. meanwhile, a growing number of

republican-led states are moving to end the extra $300 a week in covid-19 pandemic-related unemployment benefits. arguing that the relief is discouraging u.s. workers from rejoining the labor force. yesterday, tennessee announced it will stop participating in the federal government's supplemental unemployment benefits program on july 23rd. the state joins -- july 3rd. excuse me. the state joins alabama, arkansas, iowa, mississippi, montana, north dakota and south carolina who have all also announced they would end the program. officials in georgia yesterday said their state is likely to slash the jobless benefit as well. yesterday, president biden urged out of work americans to accept the jobs they might be offered and warned they would lose unemployment benefits if they

don't. >> we're going to make it clear that anyone collecting unemployment who is offered a suitable job, must take the job or lose their unemployment benefits. friend from columbia university, professor of economics, economist dr. jeffrey sacks. jeffrey, this is -- so great to you here. >> here we go. >> no, no, no. you and i have agreed over i think past 15 years we have to keep an eye on the debt. we have to keep an eye on the deficit. we have to keep an eye on anything that drives the deficit up and the debt up. but i'm curious as a progressive, how you balancing the current debate that you're hearing that larry somers is for the first time concerned about inflationary interests, even

paul krugman we had on our show said he didn't love the400 stimulus check. he would prefer it went more into infrastructure but it was very popular and helped sell the bill. i'm curious, what are your thoughts as you hear this debate unwind about helping people who are truly disadvantaged but also pumping more money into the economy that then was taken out because of covid. >> i think the key right now is we need to rebuild the economy in a lot of different areas in the roads, the bridges, digital, in the plans for infrastructure, but we ought to pay for that going forward. and that's really where the debate in washington is now. washington, as you know, has not thought about anything but tax cuts for basically 40 years and president biden is putting some tax increases on the table and he's finding resistance actually

in both parties, the republicans are saying we're not going to raise one dollar to reverse the 2017 corporate tax cut which was a sheer give away, raise the budget deficit and many democrats are saying we don't want this tax raise. we don't want that tax raise. we want to end the deductions on the state and local taxes. so, the big question for us is whether we're going to actually pay for what we need in the united states. that's the backdrop. >> dr. sachs, jonathan lemire. good to see you this morning. in the building behind me right now there's a lot of debate about the administration's new proposal for infrastructure jobs, family planning, it will frankly remake how the government deals with its citizens in a very dramatic in the social safety net. republicans are saying no, it's

too big. they don't how they'll pay for it with tax rates and so on. is this debate about what's coming happens with the slow down in the jobs report, with concerns perhaps voiced by some there's too much federal help already. what sort of balance needs to be struck here? what's your overall assessment just to the size of the package the administration is looking to put forth? >> first of all, i think all these numbers are very hard for people to process because when they announce a number like a $2 billion package, the first thing you have to do is look over how many years and divide by that to get the idea of what's the real annual spending. then you have to decide that by the size of our economy which is 20 trillion dollars a year. what they're talking about is 1 or 2% of our national output. it's not very large. and the tax increases are not very large either, but when it's put in these big headlines, then

people can think it's over the top. we simply haven't patched our infrastructure, much less modernized it for decades. we haven't done other than tax cuts for decades. the truth is the american people, the average person overwhelmingly supports the higher taxes on companies and on wealthy people, usually by a margin of 70% in favor or 75% in favor to 20% opposed. what's going on in the white house behind you is the lobbying. we have powerful, rich people who are opposing any contribution that they might make. we have megacorporations that don't pay any taxes and they want to keep it that way. we have an irs that had its budget cut so much that it doesn't do audits anymore. so this is a game that's going

on. the american people by and large see through the game but washington often doesn't care. they don't care about that game. the game they're in is the campaign contributions. so, my sense is we need to modernize, upgrade our technology. we need to get to 5g digital and get to clean energy and repair roads and bridges and the price tag is absolutely affordable, but the greedy companies and greedy, very rich people who have gotten a lot richer in the last two years with the soaring stock market need to get on to the program. that's my feeling. >> dr. sachs saying something radical these days. we have to pay for this. great to see you as always. >> great to be with you. >> anna palmer, let's talk about the status of this massive $2.5 trillion billion negotiations. we know that joe manchin was called into the house, kyrsten sinema. the moderates the white house had to get on board to get to

50/50. where is it on the wiggle room on the number around the corporate tax rate? >> yeah. what we're starting to see is the contours of this bill and what's going to come together. the big four leaders are heading to the white house today. but they're very, very far apart. i'm pretty bearish when you look at the reporting of what we've been talking to people about republicans actually coming forward on this. even what mitch mcconnell has been saying over the last week or so, he raised the number to 800 billion for infrastructure. but again still just talking about that hard infrastructure. and his redline continues to be increasing the taxes that the professor was just talking about. so if that's the case, it's hard to see any package that democrats are going to bring forward that you're going to find republicans to agree to. i think the big question is how long does this dance continue in the next couple weeks between democrats and republicans and when will it be enough for someone like senator joe manchin

or kyrsten sinema say democrats have in good faith tried to negotiate and find a way forward with republicans but they aren't willing to come to any sort of agreement here. that's something to be watching in the next i think two to three weeks, definitely around the memorial daybreak. >> anna palmer, thank you very much for coming on this morning, as always. coming up, gas prices are climbing across the east coast in the wake of the colonial pipeline hack. we're going to go live to north carolina where a state of emergency has been declared as drivers wait hours in some cases to fill up their tanks. "morning joe" is coming right back. stay restless with the icon that does the same. the rx, crafted by lexus. lease the 2021 rx 350 for $439 a month for 36 months. experience amazing, at your lexus dealer.

the war munger, a person

that loves seeing our troops fighting, liz cheney. how about that? the good news is in her state she has been censured and in her state her poll numbers have dropped faster than any human being i've ever seen. so hopefully they'll get rid of her with the next election. get rid of them all. >> so, that is, by the way, that is the same guy who, willie, attacked john mccain regularly while he was dying of cancer and continued to attack john mccain after he died after cancer. that's the same guy who, of course, stayed in an ivy league school that his daddy probably got him into and daddy kept him

out of the war while john mccain was getting beaten up so badly in vietnam that he couldn't even raise his arms over his head for the rest of his life. and john mccain had a chance to get out of that hell, he stayed because his band of brothers were still left behind. that's the same guy right there, donald trump, that attacked john mccain and that's attacked liz cheney and that's attacked in the past ronald reagan. that's attacked everybody. >> attacked our country. >> and you hear those people in the audience -- and this has been -- i got to say, this has been -- mika will tell you this for me watching this happen, i know liz and i've always respected, known and love and respected her family, but we've never been particularly close.

for some reason, this week has been kind of hardest for me over the past four or five years as far as figuring out what happened to the people i grew up with, figuring out what happened to the people who claimed when they were voting for me they were for small government. what happened to the people who when they voted for me claimed that they were for a strong nato, that they were for pushing back on russia, that they were for democracy that they were for the rule of law. no man above the law they would say. they would hold their little constitutions which i always had in my pocket and they would say, in this country, we are not a law of men. we are -- we are not a nation of men. we are a nation of laws. >> uh-huh. >> that was the cornerstone of what we believed. all the people who claim to be

conservatives are saying the same thing for 50 years that liz cheney was saying, that i said in congress. and now -- i don't understand it now. i don't understand why my friends still and my family members still follow this man. nothing conservative about him. it's what you remember me saying and what mika remembers me saying through the 2016 campaign, i said it go back. look at the tapes. i warned republicans, there's nothing conservative about this man. he's hijacking your party. in february of 2016, i said this guy will destroy the party of abraham lincoln, and yet it's not just about voting, willie.

i have good friends, lifelong friends that have advanced degrees, that are attorneys, that are of moderate temperament, that over the past year they've told me, oh, covid. it's just like the flu. because they hear donald trump say it's just like the flu. of course, they didn't repeat donald trump when the woodward tapes were leaked. and actually donald trump saying it was much worse than the flu. these are the same people that told me they're not taking the vaccine. and they all have different reasons for not taking the vaccine. but if donald trump had told them from the very beginning to take the vaccine, they would have taken the vaccine. >> yeah. >> these are the same people who i went to church with.

>> yeah. >> i went to sunday school with. i went to training union with. i went on mission trips with. i sang in the church choir with. i grew up with. i spent every friday night with. we would have bible studies. >> these are the people you love. >> these are the people i love. not past tense. these are the people i love. >> and joe, if i may, these are the people that if donald trump called any one of them a murderer -- >> 12 times. >> and if donald trump did anything to try and destroy them, you would be on a plane and you would be by their side and you would be fighting for them. >> and i would tell them i would go to war. >> you wouldn't think a second -- >> i wouldn't think a second. all of my friends, by the way, these same friends right now -- >> these people are family. >> i said this before, if i needed something, even today they would give it to me.

if i needed a kidney, they would give it to me. >> actually makes it more disturbing. these people are in a cult and it allows them to separate everything they've learned in school, everything they've learned in church, everything they've read in jesus' words. everything they've read in the new testament, everything they've read in the gospels, everything they've read in the old testament and they're able to separate that and embrace this alternate reality. and for some reason, i guess watching it happen to somebody else. let me say, by the way, by the way, mika will tell you this. donald trump, you know, this isn't about donald trump calling me a murderer. this is about me talking to my friends and them having this massive disconnect and not understanding if a president had called them a murderer and said

they should be thrown in jail and then, of course, capital punishment, all that, i would have been the first to rush up there. we would have all rushed up there. this is so bizarre. and beyond. so they knew that was a lie, right? and if he was going to lie in such a grand way about something as crazy as that, willie, i'll get to willie when i want to get to willie. >> he's right there. >> i see him. i'll get to him when i feel like it. i'll go to willie when i feel like it. so if he's going to lie about that, willie, what the hell won't he lie about? then we get to the things that matter. the vaccine. like why won't he come out and tell them people are lying about

the vaccine. why woen he be aggressive on the front lines? the election, which is what we're talking about now. >> the insurrection. >> why does he keep lying about the election? why does he keep lying about the insurrection? he was the guy who inspired it. but most importantly, those people who were booing in the audience, i've got to tell you, i'm just at a loss. why are they still embracing him. liberals who are supporting him, what morons. shut up and get off my twitter feed. just shut up. and get off my twitter feed. willie, i got to tell you, i can't grasp how this happened. people i know, people i love, people who have always stood --

forget about politics but in life for what's right. people who taught their kids to do the right thing. people who lived by a code that made me proud to be their friends. what happened? i have no idea. i never would have believed this five years ago. tell you the truth, i never believed that 75 million americans would vote for this guy. they did. then the insurrection came. i never would have believed they would have stayed with him. i'm telling you, i've said it before, put all the polls up that joe biden has a 63% approval rating. whatever. he was going to win wisconsin by 20 points. if the election were held today, donald trump would get 75 million votes.

he hasn't lost a single vote. and, yes, you can give me all -- you can say, oh, my cousin. my cousin in scranton is not voting for him next time. no, he would get the 75. i don't know a single person who has changed their mind. certainly not enough people. you look at these polls. he dominates the republican party even more. and of course they're going to keep losing elections. they may win in 2022 for obvious reasons. but national elections are done as a national party. this isn't about politics. this is about me looking back over the past 50 years and realizing that almost everybody that i grew up with, everybody that i loved then and love now live by a different set of realities when it comes to politics. >> you're talking about an experience, joe, i think everyone in this country had in one way or another. that by the way, that speech that he made was at the american

conservative union, which stands for conservative principles and conservative policies, cheering donald trump and booing liz cheney who, of course, has a much higher life time conservative rating than donald trump or elise stefanik or anybody else who is following in her footsteps. but what you're talking about is something that happened -- i always set the date as donald trump came down the escalator and it was a bit of a joke. it was a publicity stunt. july of 2015, when he first ripped john mccain, senator john mccain, war hero john mccain and said i like my heroes who weren't captured or whatever he said and we said conventional politics tells you that's it. he's done. you can't do that. and his support started to tick up and people like you're talking about, people we know sort of liked it in some way because he was, quote, speaking truth or whatever they thought he was doing. then he comes out with a muslim ban. he goes after gold star family. he crosses all these lines that you cannot cross a a conservative or as an american

frankly. and his support just goes up. and now, joe, all the people you're talk about continue to fall on their swords for a man who is no longer president. a man who plays 36 holes of golf and sits on the patio at mar-a-lago. that's where they're putting their energy. it's not just your friends. it's now members of congress who are doing that, who are coming out today in a couple of hours and will make the explicit statement that loyalty to donald trump is more important than what happened on january 6th. and in preserving our democracy and free elections. republicans will vote this morning to remove congresswoman liz cheney from her post as conference chair. republican lawmakers will meet behind closed doors at 9:00 a.m. this morning that's when a member will need to bring up a vote of no confidence against cheney. the vote will be held by secret ballot. and simple majority will be needed to remove her from her leadership position. last night, ahead of that vote, congress woman cheney spoke on

the house floor. >> god has blessed, america, mr. speaker. but our freedom only survives if we protect it. if we honor our oath taken before god in this chamber to support and defend the constitution. if we recognize threats to freedom when they arise. today, we face a threat america has never seen before. a former president who provoked a violent attack on this capitol in an effort to steal the election has resumed his aggressive effort to convince americans that the election was stolen from him. he risks inciting further violence. millions of americans have been misled by the former president. they have heard only his words but not the truth. as he continues to undermine our democratic process, sewing seeds of doubt about whether democracy

really works at all. i am a conservative republican. and the most conservative of conservative principles is reverence for the rule of law. the electoral college has voted. more than 60 state and federal courts including multiple judges the former president appointed have rejected his claims. the trump department of justice investigated the former president's claims of widespread fraud and found no evidence to support them. the election is over. that is the rule of law. that is our constitutional process. those who refuse to accept the rulings of our courts are at war with the constitution. our duty is clear, every one of us who has sworn the oath must act to prevent the unraveling of our democracy. this is not about policy.

this is not about partisanship. this is about our duty as americans. this is not about policy. this is not about partisanship. this is about our duty as americans. remaining silent and ignoring the lie emboldens the liar. i will not participate in that. i will not sit back and watch in silence while others lead our party down a path that abandons the rule of law and joins the former president's crusade to undermine our democracy. >> let's bring in msnbc contributor, mike barnicle, and nbc political analyst claire mccaskill and roger's chair in the american presidency at vanderbilt university, jon meacham and at the white house

msnbc contributor, yamiche alcindor. good to have you all on board this hour. >> it's too obvious of a parallel to draw, i am of course captain obvious i'll draw that parallel. she runs into joe mccarthy, who at that point was destroying lives, getting people arrested, causing people to be ruined professionally, causing people to in anguish commit suicide, he was the most feared man in washington, d.c. she walked past him. i hear your going to give a speech. yes, i am and you're not going to like it. margaret chase smith, this woman in a town of men goes out and delivers a speech that everybody else was afraid to give. two years later ikes one of my

political heroes would be afraid to had nothing to lose, to be afraid of and yet he still pulled his punches on mccarthy. it was an extraordinary moment. she stood alone. the stakes were very high. here we have liz cheney alone. i'll just say it, i've been personal here. but alone in that chamber that i love. chamber that i loved working in, that i felt honored to be in everyday. that i have been embarrassed by. over the past several years but liz cheney last night making me think, wait a second, that still is a place where right can be done and history can be made. >> yeah. and you know, part of democracy an essential element of the system that representative cheney is defending and that we should all, i think, defend as

strongly as we can is the right to disagree if we accept the rule of law. my old boss charlie peters once defined intellectual honesty as the ability to say something good about the other team and bad about your team, if that's where the facts lead you. and that's what she did. and that's what she's doing. i had another -- this won't surprise you, another historical moment. almost exactly 30 years ago in 1989, when george h.w. bush was looking for a new secretary of defense after the john tower nomination fell apart, he reached into the house of representatives and took out dick cheney. cheney goes over to the pentagon. that opens up a place in the house leadership that is run -- that's won by newt gingrich. and that sets gingrich, as you know well, on the path to 1994.

this is another house leadership election. not exactly a given-esque realm. but it is, in fact, significant in that things got worse with gingrich and the party was in the midst of a shift away from reality. i think part of the answer to the questions you were raising is that a lot of folks believe from eisenhower through george w. bush the republican presidents didn't actually deliver on fundamental conservative demands. and it was subtle. and it was insidious but eisenhower, nixon, ford, reagan, the bushes, all ran to the right and then when they were in washington, they governed more

from the center. i think that began to erode some of the trust to the point where that was to mix metaphors, that was the gasoline on the garage floor and trump was the match. i think what cheney is doing -- go ahead. >> john, i'm so sorry. we have a slight delay here and i thought you had stopped because you're very thoughtful and your pause is pregnant inspiring. i listen to your podcast. i'm a nerd. i listen to all of them. i'm moved deeply by them. i remember that scene you painted in podcast -- in the latest season of your podcast the founder of the john birch society driving into new york city with four friends. and all the way in talking about how dwight eisenhower was

basically a spy for the soviet union and that he was furthering the goals of communism there. and you talk so much about this paranoid style of american politics. so yes, there were many people disappointed in ike and many people disappointed in nixon and ford and reagan. but you also had this almost that was thriving on conspiracy theories, lying about each one of those republican presidents from the hard, hard, hard, hard right. and they were always the people we sort of like, kind of pushed to the side. they've taken control of the party. right. right. that's the inflection point. that's what's happened. that's what i didn't expect honestly five years ago to be saying or believing.

but i think that's exactly right. and i think frankly as currently constituted and run, the republican caucus that will today remove liz cheney from this leadership position is not a functional, rational actor in the constitutional system. and that is very scary for anybody who loves this country. because the way we're built, both explicitly and implicitly, is we need two parties that are about the mediation of differences and not an unfolding, apocalyptic war. and right now we have one party that's not and we have one party that is. >> jon meacham, you mentioned scary. i want to go to claire mccaskill and develop on that. liz cheney brought up kenya, poland, russia. i want to bring into the conversation my father's fears

about how this can happen here. and that americans don't seem to understand that, specially those the millions who voted for donald trump who aren't seeing what's happening but especially for those in the republican party that this can happen here and you are an accomplice to that right now. it sounded so extreme four years ago when we put on the table on this show our fears about this president wanting to be a dictator, believing in dictatorships, having obsessions with leaders like vladimir putin. having secret meetings, nobody seemed to really completely see the danger at stake within the heart of the republican party. and those empty chairs around liz cheney last night during her speech are a signal of the

cowardice and the weakness among her own parties among republicans in the house, many of them men by the way, just pointing that out. and that's a place where evil flourishes. and this sounds so dramatic, but it's not. it's where we are right now. >> you know, i think it's so important that jon meacham is with us this morning. because i do think this day is going to be an important day in history. i do think that margaret chase smith speech is an apt comparison. i do believe that this is the darkest hour for the republican party. and the thing that's so weird, i mean, this is what bad guys in other countries do. this is what we have stood against as a nation, since our birth. december pits in other countries lying and trying to manipulate power to their own will. i never dreamt there would be so many welcome coconspirators in this effort to undermine the

most precious thing we have of all which is our democracy based on free and fair elections. it is awfully bad. just to make it very brutal in terms of political terms what i can't get is they aren't doing the math. you look in raw political terms. do the math. yes, eli was on your program this morning talking about the morning consult poll and 50% of the republicans said she should go. but 50% didn't say she should go. and by the way, less than 25% of the independent voters said she should go. you take 25% of the republican party, you take the majority of the independents, and you take the vast majority of the democrats in this country and republicans can't win. they can't win. so, it is really going down a path that really harms -- listen, do i want the democrats

to win? of course i do. i think you're seeing nails in the coffin of a republican party that has lost all moral high ground on integrity. they are kicking somebody out for telling the truth. >> and yamiche, i'm curious, yamiche, what the white house thinks the building you cover every single day about this the building behind you because today, as a matter of fact, kevin mccarthy will be one of the so-called big four meeting with president biden. so on the very day that he's leading the charge to expel liz cheney because she says joe biden is the free and fair president of the united states of america, he will be sitting down trying to do some business with that president. >> well, willie, all of this is happening 126 days after the capitol insurrection where a mob stormed into the capitol and where now liz cheney is taking this defiant last stand to say i am not going to be going down the path of calling into question the rule of law and undermining democracy. when i talk to white house

officials about this civil war inside the gop where the side of truth is losing it seems this morning, they say that the president, president biden, feels very, very like -- very, very wetted to the idea that he was elected to try his best to work with republicans. so even though when kevin mccarthy walks into this white house this afternoon, this morning, he will be walking in of course the elephant in the room being that he just ousted a member of his party from leadership for calling into question the legitimacy of president biden. white house officials tell me that he's going to be showing grace, president biden will show grace and discipline and a sense of duty. those are the words the white house officials are using when they say the president is continuing to work with republicans despite their efforts to try to call into question his legitimate victory. another thing i'm hearing from white house officials is that they understand that this is a distraction and that this republican party is some ways

proven to be a contrast to the work that they're doing here at the white house. they say the president who has been on the road talking about his plans, $4 trillion to help families, to provide jobs to have infrastructure and to help home health aids and so many other americans to talk about systemic racism and root it out in our society, they say that all of this is happening at the gop. it shows while the president is hard at work for the american people, the gop is hard at work trying to undo the 2020 election. so of course something that cannot actually be done. but white house officials are leaning in on the idea that president biden feels it is his duty, it is his responsibility as the leader of the united states to still work with the party that is really basing all of its interactions and all of its sense right now on conspiracy theories and lies. >> wow. that's a tough thing to do. yamiche alcindor, thank you very much for your reporting. >> mike barnicle, man, you've been around the capitol for a

very long time. for years. and as a reporter and just in and out of the place. i know you hold it -- you have a special reverence for it yourself. i'm just curious about your thoughts watching liz cheney last night on the floor. and again, for people watching, again, let me be very open and clear about this, i think republicans are really pushing themselves further into a corner. so, as we speak about this, mike, it's not like, oh, geez, they'll get a big advantage out of this. like mitt romney said this isn't going to pick up a single vote for them, probably going to lose more votes in suburbs. more votes with women. more votes with actually true conservatives like me who actually believe like in american conservatism. so given all of that, just what

were your thoughts on that sad spectacle we saw last night as men that rushed out of the chamber as liz cheney went in to tell the truth? >> you know, joe, i had a bundle of thoughts last night and certainly this morning and even up to and including right now and listening to you caused me to think about a lot of other things as well. but last night when liz cheney said we must speak the truth, our election was not stolen. and america has not failed. those are words that should resonate throughout this country because what we've talked about here today, what we've witnessed in the news, this is a very fragile republic of ours right now. we begin this hour with a brief clip of the former guy, the former president of the united states. people haven't seen a whole lot of him. and they certainly haven't heard from him a lot through twitter

or facebook or things like that. so he's been absent. he's been absent from the collective memory of the republic for quite -- for over 100 days. you said earlier when you were speaking at length about your feelings about the party and about what has happened to it, you said one phrase that resonated with me and i think a lot of other people when you said how did this happen? i think jon meacham and other historians are going to look at these past four years and right now as a matter of fact asking, how did this happen? how in this country so filled with goodness and so racked with problems that we admit to and that we try to confront each and everyday, how did it happen that a hater became president? that a divider still exists as a former president? that he gets up there and twists

everything. how did this happen? and yet here we are with 43 states, maybe even more, trying to twist election laws so that if republicans lose elections they don't have to honor the results. this all stems from this one person, the former president of the united states. so i think we're going to be talking a lot about that phrase and wondering about that phrase for many, many months to come sadly. how did this happen? >> these are the questions we are going to be looking at in the many hours and days to come because we're at such a cross roads. many people i think thought with biden's victory, a page had been turned. it's not. we want to turn now to americans beginning to feel the effects of the colonial pipeline shutdown. across the east coast, drivers are waiting in long lines to

fill up their tanks as fears of a gas shortage grow. the colonial pipeline supplies half the fuel for all of the east coast and remains out of service after a cyber a i tack over the weekend. joining us from charlotte, north carolina, tom yames. what is the latest, tom? >> reporter: mika good morning. well, this gas station just behind me had to open an hour earlier because of the demand. the good news is they have gas here, but you can see the lines getting longer and longer. just across the street we saw several stations without fuel. new development this morning, the colonial pipeline website is back up and running. that could be a potential step in the right direction. this morning, gas and patience running low at the pump. >> i have been here now for an hour and 15 minutes. >> reporter: emergency declarations issued in four states with more than 1,700 gas

stations from florida to maryland out of fuel. it comes on the heels of that crippling cyberattack against a critical u.s. fuel source. >> all the gas stations closer to where i live were completely empty. >> americans on the hunt for gas up and down the east coast overwhelming some stations. >> do you think people are panicked or do you think people are trying to figure everything out? >> i think it's probably some panic, like the toilet paper issues a year ago. >> cars bumper to bumper here in the carolinas and stretching down streets in florida. >> check out the line. >> reporter: nationwide, gas prices reaching their highest point in nearly seven years. despite the price in spike and demand, the white house and experts are preaching calm. >> there will be hoarding gas. if you don't really need it, then don't buy it. >> reporter: but with the colonial pipeline still mostly down the region that relies on the 5,500 mile system for its fuel is feeling an impact. >> my fear is you have these gas

shortages it's going to cause a lot of problems for people. >> reporter: on tuesday, in south carolina, cars were turned away. >> we're out of gas. >> reporter: according to gas buddy, nearly 40% of metra atlanta gas stations are out of fuel. but these pumps in tennessee had plenty. >> as of right now, there's still a good supply out there. and there's no need to panic. >> reporter: the long lines, though, already causing a domino effect in some cases. >> you want to get groceries but you can't get groceries why? >> because i cannot -- look. you see? the line. >> reporter: all of this pain at the pump as 34 million americans plan to bublg buckle up and hit the road for the big memorial day weekend. so a lot of frustration still out there along the east coast. aaa says if you're going to run errands, try to group them together. go to the grocery store, pharmacy, pick up the lottery tickets, pick up the kids do

that at once and avoid traffic times because the lines will be longer. but mika the reality is this i was talking to these drivers this morning and last night and they're saying the same thing, listen, i drive a long distance to get to work. i don't want to get stuck. i don't want to miss work. the average commute time sabt 30 minutes and you kind of understand their pain and why they're lining up right now. mika? >> all right. tom, thank you very much for that report. now to gaza. at least 33 people were killed yesterday, including ten children in the on going violence between israel and the palestinians. israeli air strikes flattened this 13-story apartment building in gaza. with israel claiming it was being used by the hamas militant group. shortly after tensions spread west to tel aviv. 130 rockets from the gaza strip sent residents of israel's largest city scrambling into bomb shelters. the clashes prompted calls from

world leaders to deescalate the violence. yesterday they condemned the attacks from hamas but said the palestinian people deserved, quote, equal measures of freedom. we will keep following this story. still ahead on "morning joe," intelligence committee chairman senator mark warner will be our guest this morning. plus, if the trump administration taught us anything, it's that democracy cannot be taken for granted. one of our next guests examines a critical component of democracy, the written constitution. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. there's interest you accrue, and interests you pursue. plans for the long term, and plans for a long weekend. assets you allocate, and ones you hold tight. at thrivent, we believe money is a tool, not a goal.

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the former president is using the same language that he knows provoked violence on january 6th. as party we need to be focussed on the future.

we need to be focussed on embracing the constitution, not embracing insurrection. fundamental part of the constitution and of who we are as americans is the rule of law. it's the judicial process. the election wasn't stolen. there was a judicial process in place. if you attack the judicial process and you attack the rule of law, you aren't defending the constitution, you're at war with the constitution. >> republican conference chair, at least for the moment, liz cheney, speaking on sunday on the same theme of last night's floor speech. the need to defend the u.s. constitution. joining us now professor of history at princeton, the author of the new book "the gun, the ship and the pen linda cauley. in light of what is happening in washington, in light of her speech last night, what

parallels or messages from the book do you come to mind for you? >> well, i came to this subject rather as an outsider because as my accent suggests i come from britain, which has no codified constitution. but when i came over to the united states in the 1980s, i became really intrigued with d. and increasingly aware of their importance. so, in the book, i trace how they increasingly spread across the globe from the 1750s. but i also end the book with various warnings that constitutions are fragile pieces of paper. they only work so long as people make them work, think hard about

them, perhaps keep them well amended and of course we're now in an increasingly digital world where people are getting their political information from a variety of sources, very eclectic sometimes unworthy sources. so one's got to think how does one keep these really important, political and legal texts going? and in the center of people's minds. >> that's such a great question. let's go to historian jon meacham to continue the conversation. macham? >> professor, talk about these historical case studies for constitutions that do fail. are there some characteristics, some reoccurring symptoms that lead to that fatal diagnosis? >> well, very often they fail because of war.

you know, a country is defeated or the leader decides that he really doesn't want a written constitution. this happened in junisia, the space that sees the first modern muslim constitution, it's made in 1861. in 1864 it's withdrawn. and the same thing happens in turkey with their 1876 constitution. so, it can be pressure from without, but it can also be leaders changing their minds. >> mike barnicle? >> professor, i'm wondering if you have an opinion in what we've been talking about here most of the morning and that is the threat posed to the constitution, if any if your view, of the republican party

seeming reluctance to accept the results of our last national election where joe biden was elected. >> well, you know, i'm not a politician, just a mere academic. but you know, one sane one can say about the federal constitution in the united states is that it's now the oldest in existence. and the founding fathers made it very difficult to amend. the state constitutions are amended quite regularly. but the federal constitution, it's very hard to amend, much harder say than the second oldest constitution that still exists, norway's constitution of 1814. they're always amending that. and i do suspect that one of the

challenges that the united states faces is that its constitution is in some ways out of date. you know, the founding fathers said nothing in writing about t. they said nothing about the influence of plutaucrats. in 1787 in philadelphia when they were drafting this wonderful document, they weren't thinking of billionaires. so, there's all these kinds of challenges that in an ideal world perhaps a rediscussion of the federal constitution might be a useful thing to do, but how you do that in such, as is now, a divided political community, i

don't know. >> professor of history at princeton, linda colley, thank you so much. the book is "the gun, the ship and the pen" warfare, constitutions and the making of the modern world. and where we stand right now the book is so timely. jon meacham. thank you as well. coming up, consumer inflation data for the month of april will be released in the next hour. and it is expected to show the biggest year over year gain in nearly a decade. stephanie ruhle joins us to break down the numbers straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪♪ ♪ started out down a dirty road ♪ out down a dirty road ♪ this is my body of proof. proof of less joint pain and clearer skin. proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis... ...with humira. humira targets and blocks a specific source of inflammation

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fernando jr. in the injured list yesterday. three other padre players will be sideline because of contact tracing. the new york yankees is also dealing with the virus reporting of break-flu cases yesterday. their base coach and reggie willis each tested positive despite vaccinated. >> joining us now will leach. he's also the new author of "how lucky." i can't acknowledge that your st. louis cardinals are tied for the best record for all of baseball, i just jinxed it for

you. >> we are glad baseball is coming around to understand where the cardinals right where it should be. >> you can communicate with claire mckaskill. she's the best in baseball right now. >> how about that 11th rask night against the brewers. we are feeling great in st. louis and a little bit of a great start. we'll be talking about baseball in october. >> all about starting pitching and even with the weird extra innings. >> so will, we'll put the baseball to the side for a second because we want to talk about your book, "how lucky," people have come to love your writing about sports and culture but this is your first novel. what makes you step in the world of fiction? >> i want to write about a character, his name is daniel,

he's 26-years-old and he has spinal disprophy and my son actually have this. i want to set the story. but, certainly it basically tells a story of daniel witnesses what he thinks a kidnapping and he tries to investigate it while he's learning about his life a little bit. i traditionally known for sports, there are a lot of tailgating and certainly everybody missed tailgating last year, hopefully it is funny and suspensful. >> an author named steven king,

he wrote this "i am reading a fantastic novel by will leitch called "how lucky," a lot of you will like. >> i had to check to make sure it is not one of those tweets that people put together. steven king is a brilliant writer. i am originally from central illinois where people don't read perhaps as much as i would have liked them to. he's a physical representation of what books are. i don't know steven king, i was honored. i have been reading steven king

books when i was nine-years-old. >> mike is here with a question for you. >> will, that was high praise from steven king. in terms of your writing and you write about reality each and everyday whether it is sports or culture and i read a lot about it. how do you go from writing the reality that surrounds us each and everyday whether it is sports or anything else and you become the person in the novel you are writing and after you tell us that, your thoughts on albert rose? >> first, i thought it will be easier, unlike journalism, you make all the people do whatever you want them. in journalism if someone do irrational things, people do

irrational things. it was fun to put together. it is really telling a story. it is the same kind of concept as journalism, certainly as a cardinals fan to watch him come up there is a lot of debate whether or not he should come back to st. louis. it is different to find a logical spot for him to come back to st. louis. albert has to come back to st. louis for crying out loud. i think a lot of magic can happen if he got them back. >> it would be a good way for him to go out. you mentioned you are from central illinois. congratulations on the new book "how lucky," he's one of the

great writers out there. good to see you my friend. >> just over an hour from now, republicans will gather to vote in secret on liz cheney's future as conference chair. a simple majority will decide her fate. we are following all the dramatic development as "morning joe" continues ♪♪ . our retirement plan with voya, keeps us moving forward. hey, kevin!

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senator paul, with all new respect, you are entirely and completely incorrect that the nih has not ever and does not now fund gain function of research in the wuhan institute.

>> i don't favor game of function research that are not correct. >> you're fooling with mother nature here, you are allowing super virus to be created with a 15% mortality. it is very dangerous and it is a huge mistake to share this with china and it is a huge mistake to allow this in the united states. we should be careful to investigate where this virus came from. >> i fully agree that you should investigate where the virus came from. again, we have not funded gain of functions, research in the wuhan, virology. >> why is he doing this to himself? >> i don't know why he does. >> it is more than strange, it is disturbing. dr. anthony fauci pushing back on senator rand paul allegations that the national institutes of

health have been funding the chinese lab in wuhan. >> we have been watching this for six months, it is really strange for the guy that has a doctor in front of his name for some reason seems to get further out there than anybody else. he's basically sounding like some qanon. >> rand paul is a doctor. dr. fauci is the chief boogie man for chief conspiracy theory. we know this over the years and there are all kinds of theories. they're not only the darkest corners on the internet, they found their way on prominent tv shows where dr. fauci is being called a criminal. that talk online and cable news spill over into congress where united states senators willing to take those ideas and theories and run with them and con front dr. fauci himself. those were extraordinary

exchanges yesterday. we have cofounder of "punch ball news" and reverend sharpton and white house reporter jonathan lemire, it is good to have you all. >> i got a sense last night when watching liz cheney that we were watching one way or another of a piece of history. as a conservative you look back to those moments where somebody steps into the limelight and leads a movement, you think of reagan in 1966. i think of margaret thatcher in 1975 in britain and her address before the conservative party, she sort of sweeps away the

light and shows everybody who's in control there. liz cheney could well be that person in 2021, but the question is for what party because the party that she's a member of that i was a member of, ronald reagan was a member of. that party no longer exists. it is a party that -- well, forget about ideology, it is a party that's anti-democratic that refuses and taking its future position, being a party that's refused to accept democratic winning elections. if they don't like the outcome, they won't accept the election results. certainly what it seems if you look at arizona and you look at what's happening in the house of representatives right now with

republican caucus. >> this is something incredible to watch. >> looking women over 50,000 submissions for remarkable women who have done remarkable things. this is different to see her standing out here alone. republicans left, they left the hall because they did not want to be embarrassed or they were too weak to sit there and listen to the truth. house republicans are expected to vote this morning to remove her. to get her out of their way, congresswoman liz cheney from her pest as conference chair. gop lawmakers will meet behind closed doors at 9:00 a.m., that's when a member will need to bring up a vote of no confidence against cheney. the vote will be held by secret ballot and a simple majority will be needed to remove her from her leadership position. congresswoman cheney spoke on the house floor.

>> i am a conservative republican, the most conservative of conservative principles is reverence for the rule of law. the electoral college have voted and including multiple judges have rejected his claims. the trump department of justice investigated the formal president's claim of fraud and found no evidence to support them. the election is over. that is the rule of law. that is our constitutional process. those who refused to accept the rulings of our courts are at war with the constitution. our duty is clear. every one of us who has sworn the oath must act to prevent the unraveling of our democracy. this is not about policy. this is not about partisanship. this is about our duty as

americans. remaining silent and ignoring the lie emboldens the liar. i will not participate in that. i will not sit back and watch in silence while others lead our party down a path that abandons the rule of law and joins the former president's crusade to undermine or democracy. as the party of reagan, republicans have championed democracy and won the cold war and defeated the communists. today america is on another cusp of the cold war, this time with communist china. american democracy is a failure. we must speak the truth. our election was not stolen and america has not failed. i received a message last week

from a gold star father who says standing up for the truth honors all who gave all. we must all strive to be worthy of the sacrifice of those who have died for our freedom. they're the patriots, katherine lee bates described in the word of "america is beautiful," mercy more than life. ultimately, mr. speaker, this is at the heart of what our oath requires that we love our country more. that we love her so much that we'll stand above politics to defend her. we'll do everything in our power to protect our constitution and our freedom that has been paid for by the blood of so many.

we must love america so much that we'll never yield in her defense. that's our duty. thank you. >> so, willie, freedom only survive if we protect it, we must speak the truth, the election was not stolen. america has not fail and donald trump's attempt to undermine democracy as liz cheney says in the floor of the people's house last night. she simply says i will not participate. >> that had the feel of a political urology. it sounded like liz cheney was standing there remembering the party that never existed, talking about the bushes. none were in the room because as you said they walked out except for congressman of colorado perhaps ashamed.

she was reminding them the rule of law at the top of the list. >> so much of this comes down to donald trump's personal ambition. what his hold in the party for 2024. you are watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. ♪♪ we'll be right back. ♪ [sfx: thunder rumbles] [sfx: rainstorm] ♪♪ comfort in the extreme. ♪♪ the lincoln family of luxury suvs. as your business changes, the united states postal service is changing with it. with e-commerce that runs at the speed of now. next day and two-day shipping nationwide, and returns right from the doorstep. it's a whole new world out there. let's not keep it waiting. from prom dresses to workouts it's a whole new world out there. and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated

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if we honor our oath, taken before god in this chamber to support and defend the constitution. if we recognize threats to freedom when they arise, today we face as threat america has never seen before. a formal president who provoked a violent attack on this capitol in an effort to steal the election has resumed his

aggressive efforts to convince the americans that the election was stolen from him. he risked inciting further violence. millions have been misled. they have only heard his words but not the truth as he undermines our democratic process sewing seeds of doubt as if our democracy works at all. >> ana palmer, you can't help but think who else is with her. most of them are going to vote against her and knock her out of her leadership. part of the reason they did not want to hear that message because they know she's right. despite the fact of what she's standing up for is a free and fair election saying it was not stolen, joe biden is president and donald trump is lying to you. >> yes, i think she gives voice to where a lot of actual house

republicans are whether they talk privately to you what they don't agree on the formal president is doing. they're making the point that one in the short term is not good for them that there is political beings or to go up this president there is a real fear of the fact that donald trump may support primary challenger and her speaking like this is not helpful to them gaining majority in 2022. the political calculation is very simple along those two lines. the big problem for house republicans is liz cheney is going to continue to speak like this. she's not going to stop and now she's untheterred. she's not part of the leadership and having anything to reign her in. i expect her to continue to speak like this loudly on these talking points for weeks and months to come which is a major problem for republicans. >> coming up, what the biden administration is doing to

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i talked about when donald trump's fame ignorance of the kkk and david duke and pretended he didn't know who david duke was. at that point it had become evidence that the republican party was going in all in for him. i asked the question at the end of that column in february of 2016, thinks where the party of abraham lincoln dies. time and time again over the past four years, i thought the republican party would turn away from donald trump was wrong time and time again and now this is

whether we gotten where liz cheney stands alone on the house floor supporting the basic proposition that republicans should not embraced a big lie that they know is a big lie that rudy giuliani admitted in federal court was a big lie. donald trump administration admitted it was a big lie when they said it was the safest, the most honest election towards to that effect ever run. and yet there is liz cheney sitting on the house floor alone because republicans can't be seen with her telling the most basic of truths that every trump judge appointed to this supreme court or every trump judge appointed to the supreme court

and district court all said the same thing. there was no widespread voter fraud. joe biden won the election. yet, for her simply repeating that truth, she's there alone making this declaration of conscious. >> it is incredible that we are here. what liz cheney stood up for last night is the foundation of our democracy. the idea that we have fear, and fair and free elections and that we honor their results. if you lose power, you step away from power. that's set in the beginning of this constitution and this republic and now that is under fire. she defended the basic principles as she stood alone. there is so many of them that the republican party could have walked away from the big lie and donald trump. they had their chance.

it looked like for maybe 24 hours they may have, when january 6th happened and the violet mob in donald trump's name stormed the citadel of democracy. lives were loss and for 24 hours or so, it looks like republicans may use that as their breaking point. a lot of them and if not all of them will walk away from donald trump. his power over the party seems to only grown in recent weeks. the party has lost control of the house and the senate. the republican party, the vast majority of them are tinabeth tethering themselves to him. part of what he stands for is not telling the truth and not honoring the results of an election. liz cheney will be bounced quickly and quietly. she's not going to go away.

she's going to talk out. senator romney and kinziger who joins her on that. other republicans who keep on propagating the big lie, they're all growing in number and they have complete sway over where the republican party is going in 2022 or 2024, making if they can ever honor the results of the election again. coming up, what officials learning of the cyber attack that shuts down the pipeline of the east coast. "morning joe" is coming back in a moment. ♪♪

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good morning, i guess, let me emphasize as much as there is no cause cost for hording toilet

paper during the pandemic or hording gasoline that the pipeline should be substantial by the end of this week or over the weekend. energy secretary jennifer granholm is asking americans not to horde fuel. one fifth of gas stations in atlanta are out of fuel yesterday. the governor of georgia and north carolinas declared a sta of emergency. the pipeline shut down is affecting air travel as well. american airlines is adding lay

overs to several long distant flights to refuel. the department of energy is warning that affected areas may not seek gas shipments immediately and could quote "need to rely on inventories for several days after colonial pipeline service is restored." joining us now, the chairman of select committee, mark warner, of virginia. senator, i would like to look at this problem. what have you heard about when full service will be restored and should people be calm about this and not horde gas because there are conflicting messages here. you have one from jennifer

granholms. >> i talked to friends in north carolina yesterday, they were seeing gas lines, we didn't see them in virginia until last night as i was coming home. i started seeing gas lines in alexander. i understand people's response. i do think that colonial pipeline will be back on line by the end of the week. this is why cyber security needs to be a higher priority for all of us. when the bad guys in this case, it was a russian criminal gang. when the bad guys try to shut down a company's operation, they'll be many times successful. what i most fear from a security standpoint, many of your viewers may have remembered a few months ago where russia got into 16,000

companies and they only decided to exfiltrate certain companies. the way hackers have done with colonial pipeline, we could have had our whole economy come grinding to the stop. the good news is it is totally bipartisan. i agree you will have industry support to make sure there is a mandatory reporting period so that somebody is attacking like this critical infrastructure, the security firms out there and the cloud providers like microsoft and amazon and the fbi and homeland security all know that in realtime because right now even the case of colonial pipeline of this critical part of infrastructure there was no mandatory requirements. >> senator, it is willie geist,

yesterday we had chris kreb on the show, we asked him how could this happen and he said frankly it could be as simple as this ransom group sending an e-mail to colonial and shuts down the gas line. how could that be possible in this day and age if the company is not prepared for this? >> the so-called sending an e-mail called a phishing export. it happens all the time. making your company totally safe, the bad guys only try to get in one time. yes, we need cyber hygiene. when the bad guys do get in breakthrough, we can post our

whole network and get back in a timely fashion. in the case of colonial pipeline, it appears these guys got in and fairly so launched new tactic. in the case of solar wind, they were inside our system months and going further in and if we had not had the case of solar, a private company voluntarily comes forward, we may still not have known the fact. if you combine the denial of service which is colonial with the expanding supply chain kind of, many companies are being infected. solar wind, you have the potential for disaster and right now we don't have a way for the

good guys in the private sector and the government to find out that information. the good news is people will realize this in the cyber dough domain. it is time to put that -- >> senator. we want to bring some breaking news into the conversation. the u.s. labor department released new inflation numbers. the consumer price index rose 4.2% in april over its level a year ago. before we get back to the senator on this. let's bring in stephanie ruhle. what do these numbers mean? >> listen, this is a very big jump. this is a biggest jump we have seen since 2008. this has people across the board concerned. if you go to any kitchen table across america, people are talking about their gas prices are up and grocery bills up and

lumber prices are up. you have to put it in context, they're up against last year when things were down. 2019, things are steadily going up in line, not this huge jump. you have to factor in what just happened to us. this time year we were not spending any money or going anywhere, we were in a shutdown. a year later, we were back out there in a spending boom and also the last year there was a production lab, food production and transportation shipping and all of those things were impacted which is why we are facing shortages. combine shortages and demand, the treasury department, the fed had said hold on a second, this is going to work itself out. but, this does cause a problem at least in the short term for the biden administration. they're looking to get through over $4 trillion of infrastructures spending right after a jobs report that was disappointing and inflation

number that had people across the country eventhough we are saving more money saying hold on for a second, i don't want to pay more. this is a hurdle for them. >> let me ask you by looking at these numbers, i am curious what your gut reaction is. anybody watches this show, i have been warning about inflation and big deficits and debt, i have been wrong for 25 years, maybe i am just a product of like growing up in the '70s and '80s. i am curious of larry summers and others talking about inflation pressure because we are pumping more money in the economy than taking out because of covid. we see the future going down on wall street from the people that you talk to everyday, are they concerned about inflation and do you think this jump, 4.2 jump is going to fuel those concerns or give them the sense of relief that it may not be as bad as

they worry about. >> listen, joe, inflation is not necessarily a bad thing. a little inflation is okay. of course, unfortunately it hurts people at the bottom the most. they're the people who have suffered so much this year while people on top have had a good year. this flush of money that's in the system right now, that's going to work itself out, too. all that happened in the last year white house temporary. it is not like those stimulus checks are going to be coming every month. i would say go online is what the fed is saying. while you have an economic recovery, it does not move ahead like a straight shot. there is some kicks in it. look at that jobs number, it does not say businesses are not doing well, they're not hiring. no, it is going to take some time to get back on track. >> stephanie, thank you so much. we'll see you at 9:00. senator, your thoughts on

obviously, you follow the markets closely and you follow the economy closely, you're a number guy from way back. any concerns of pumping so much into the economy that perhaps the inflation will really push it up for the first time in like what, 30 or 40 years? >> john, i got some concerns and like you i spent years and years with the so-called gang of role plans. no negative implications yet. i am not sure on stephanie's promise. i think it is pretty much dead on. we have put $5 trillion into the economy. i think history will treat that as smart because otherwise, we'll have a melt down. the feds got a good handle on

this. if it goes on another quarter, it will be a much more significant warning sign. i would point out though the money that we put out, none of those dollars that are going to stay in state and local government and even hit the street yet, this will be coming into the economy over the next year plus. for anyone to say that we should not have been doing anything on infrastructure. you know joe -- that's not a good business plan for america for our roads and rails and airports and our third world compares to the kind of airports we see around the world or high-speed rail. a once in a generation plan, and we can debate the contour of that. it is paid for. it is absolutely the right thing to do.

>> republicans are actually, tlr talks that are moving forward. let's hope democrats and republicans can come together. janet yellen said a few weeks ago because of low interest rates, if you look at the percentage of our budget that goes to servicing the debt, it is about the same as 2021 as it was in the 1980s. senator, thank you so much for being with us. >> joe, one caveat though. i have great respect for secretary yellen, if interest rate goes up 1 point, it adds $200 a year of annual interest. that comes before medicare and spend everything else. >> and that is. that's the real concern. if interest rates go up to what they have been over the past 40 years, that price tag for

servicing the debt absolutely explodes. the senator's right. thank you so much for being with us. coming up, a little therapy session for the morning to help washington. we continue the conversation we started. >> will and i have something we need to work through. yes, this will be -- >> yeah, willie and you. >> how our nation's leaders are practicing mindfulness. that's next on "morning joe." ♪♪ ♪ odor protection that works new dove men plant-based care. there's interest you accrue, and interests you pursue. plans for the long term, and plans for a long weekend. at thrivent, we believe money is a tool, not a goal. to learn more, text thrive to 444555, or visit thrivent.com.

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meditation and mindfulness can get a little controlled of the substance use that we have, the opioid crisis. how can we take the advantage of the improved funding and the science behind it. >> we are sitting at the center of the opioid crisis. here i am an old quarterback outside of ohio, who was in congress and blue collar town and blue collar family and i'm siting here talking to you about yoga. why? why am i doing this? it works. it will me and dan and helps people who have addiction issues and so many other kids in school.

it helps. if it was something else i would be saying look, we got to be doing this because it works. >> that was congressman tim ryan with our chief medical correspondent dave campbell at the yoga benefit mindfulness. will, we were talking about this yesterday. these doctors from massachusetts, he wrote dbt for dummy. they had these dbt for dummies, it debut at number one on the amazon.com, worldwide web, number one, willie, it sold more books in the first state and loaded. >> wow. >> i have never seen anything like it before. >> two of the classics. >> crazy. >> that was a big day when rome

was burng and took over. >> you got to love congressman ryan there, sitting in his baker mayfield t-shirt. i know a lot of people now who over the last few years are practicing yoga and practicing other forms of mindfulness and it seems to work for a lot of people. >> you are saying you can touch your toes. >> that's not what it is about. >> tim ryan is a huge proponent of training and needs to remained streamed. let's bring in on those experts, dbt, a therapy that teaches the people the skills to manage strong emotions and volatile relationships and stressful situations. dr. jillian gallen, authored the

book "child adolescence." medic at the three east unit at mclean hospital and their new book is "dbt for dummies." jillian, before we go into this whole thing of mindfulness being yoga and touching toes and as you have called woo woo and people have called it woo woo and it's not. this is about science, slowing down and then doing able to do better in basic relationships in life. can you explain the science behind mindfulness? >> yeah. i think -- so you're right. every once in a while, not once in a while, a lot of the time people are afraid of

mindfulness, they think, ooh, i'm not sure what that is. what is mindfulness? what is this thing? what is this fad? how does it fit into yoga. it's practice and attention. most of us live relatively mindless habitual lives and we go through our routine and we interact and multitack, and mindfulness is about learning to pay attention. john cabotson has a fantastic definition they think brings it home for people that this is not something that they can't reach. he says we pay attention in a particular way without judgment and on purpose, right? we learn to direct our attention and we take that muscle in our brain and for some of us the mussel strong and for other people we need to build that muscle. unfortunately, things like social media can weaken that muscle, but it's about attention, paying attention to what our thoughts are, what our reactions are and when we can

actually pay attention, it's great. we can sit in that space between the urge to do something, to respond to an email and to say something to a friend, to respond on social media, and we can start to step back and pay attention and notice that that's a thought, that's an urge and that's a feeling and actually make a decision about what we want to do next so we can become less reactive people in our lives, and there's many, many studies on mindfulness and blaise can talk about those and you can see through scans and questionnaires that we can change our brain in as short as two weeks by practicing mindfulness. >> it's the same attempt to have re-trained the taste buds on food. blaise aguirre, if you work on mindfulness and apply it to your life it leads to a more thoughtful, methodical approach to thinking which technology has interrupted all of our brains

especially young brains which are constantly darting from one thing to another, and i'd love to hear more about the impact that mindfulness can have on re-training the brain to be less reactive, or in my case, actually requiring less medicine to go to sleep at night because i go to bed really early and mindfulness has allowed me to be able to fall asleep again. can you explain the science behind that? what's happening in the brain when you apply mindfulness? >> so one of the things that we know especially when people are very emotionally disregulated and meaning that their emotions are out of control is that they spend a lot of time in the part of the brain and that's firing all of the time and that generates a whole lot of emotions and those emotions lead to a whole lot of thoughts and in most cases they're worry

thoughts and they're not going to the beach thoughts. so what happens is as you get caught up in all of those emotions, it's just very difficult to fall asleep because you're worried about today. you're worried about tomorrow and worried about what will happen to everybody, so by slowing that down and what we know is when people practice mindfulness the amigdula begins to settle down and you realize that these worry thoughts aren't anything that happens right now. there's nothing so bad right at this present moment that you can't deal with it and you get back to the present moment, the only moment we ever really have you realize that it's not such a bad moment and you can get through it and it's only moments when we're not living in this one that we suffer and you can't fall asleep. >> that's me. >> jillian, two things when i started learning about this six months ago that had an impact on

me in thinking, wait a second, this isn't as you say, woo woo. there's something to it. somebody sent me a study that showed when you practice mindfulness in a week sometimes, that actually your brain changes on the scans and that was where i realized objectively this played a big difference in people's lives. the second thing was something that -- that you talked about, and that is when you have a thought that comes to your mind and you want to react to it quickly, and i still make that mistake sometimes where i try to react too quickly, you talk about looking at that thought as just it's in the mind, all right. it's not necessarily real. don't suffer twice. it may never come to fruition, but you sort of have this -- it's in the mind. let it go. ruminate on it, bring it back in

later and think about it and then make your decision on how to respond. >> this is the wonderful thing about mindfulness. so i can be here and i can have lots of thoughts in my brain and i can just notice them as my thoughts, right? what interferes with that capacity and why mindfulness can be so challenging is emotions. the stronger we feel something, right? the more quickly we want to move. in dbt we call that an emotion mind. i have to do it right now. we have to react. we think about it as this muscle that i can build that muscle and like flexing a bicep, like, wow. i really want to say this, react in this way, do this, buy this, whatever it is right now and i can just pause. i can just wait a second and then i can actually decide, do i want to move forward with this right now? that's fine. you can or maybe i want to wait

a little bit. maybe i should talk this over. maybe i should sleep on it, whatever it is, but i can just sit and pause and that's okay. >> i'll tell you, blaise, one of the great things that i heard you guys talk about that makes such a huge difference and it's three words that we use around our house an awful lot and it helps with anxiety. don't suffer twice. when you're afraid something's going to happen and how are we going to respond and then one of us will say to another, don't suffer twice. explain that concept. >> yes. so i see this a lot with the young people i work with, and they come into my office and they say i failed a test. now, if you failed a test then you will suffer when you get the results back. that's the moment to suffer. there's no point in suffering now for something you're going to suffer with later. so if you start worrying about having failed that test, you

suffer that entire time, then you failed the test and now you're suffering again. on the other hand, if you haven't failed the test and you've done pretty well then you suffered needlessly. suffer only at the moment when suffering is required and not ahead of time and you aren't only suffering once, twice, three times and then you suffer again and all of that suffering that happens ahead of time begins to impact your day and you stress out and all that sort of stuff. >> that is the bottom line in terms of how you started the show. joe, don't surfer twice on the issue you were talking about with your family and friends and the new book is "dbt for dummies," dr.s gillian galen and

blaise aguirre, and right now, liz cheney entering the room where the republican caucus is going to determine her fate. >> it's a defining moment for the republican party. she made what i called earlier a eulogy, a speech last night in the house in front of only one member, one republican member who sat there, ken buck of colorado. all of the others walking out of the chamber. they didn't want to hear, perhaps, out of shame what she was telling them about where the party has been and what it stood for one minute from now. >> joe, she truly is the woman of the moment. i have to say, i salute her. don't agree with her, never really have, but today i stand with liz cheney. >> and i think so many people that may not have agreed with what she believed in, what i believe in, what conservatives believe in politically, actually are in her corner as she actually fights for peaceful transitions, for free and fair

elections, and for the recognition of people who win elections fairly and democratically. every trump judge has confirmed that that has had this case brought before them. it's time for republicans to also accept that reality. >> that does it for us this morning. stephanie you'll picks up the coverage right now. ♪♪ ♪♪ hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it is wednesday, may 12th and we are following several breaking stories in the nation's capitol right now. first, house republicans are meeting behind closed doors at this very moment. they will vote soon on whether to oust congresswoman liz cheney from gop leadership, and this just in, growing fears over inflation. with the consumer-price index, cpi rising 4.2% in april from a year ago. that is more than expected and the fastest pace in