this is part of a larger town hall on what needs to be done to move us past the rough pandemic period. you can watch us on vaccinating america town hall hosted by lawrence o'donnell tonight 10 p.m. ea we recommend you don't miss it. i'll see you tomorrow at 6 p.m. eastern. you can always find me online @a rimelber. good evening, everyone. we begin "the reid out" tonight with a day that will go down in history books. the day the republican party slid closer to full trumpian autocracy. liz cheney of wyoming as the number three member of the minority caucus in the house of representatives for daring to rebuke the former president of the united states donald trump who despite wielding no political power as we sit here tonight absolutely controls the

once grand old party. last night on the eve of her removal she delivered a memorable speech why she refuses to take a knee. >> this is not about policy. this is not about partisanship. this is about our duty as americans. remaining silent and ignoring the lie emboldens the liar. i will not participate in that. i will not sit back and watch in silence while others lead our party down a path that abandons the rule of law and joins the former president's crusade to undermine our democracy. >> it was easterly quiet in the chamber when cheney gave that speech, which is just one member in attendance, congressman ted buck of colorado. the other republican lawmakers cleared out, perhaps lacking the guts to hear her out and to face

her the night before taking out the long knives. and then today as house republicans led by trump's chief marionette, our puppet kevin, prepared to oust her as chair of the house gop conference republicans proved themselves to be not just weak but also childish with some republicans booing her as she rose for her final statement. cheney was then excommunicated from the church of trump in a 16 minute closed door voice vote meaning there is no tally of those who supported or opposed her removal. and in the faith of that breathtaking cowardess throwing down the gauntlet. >> we must go forward based on truth. we cannot both embrace the big lie and embrace the constitution. >> how concerned are you that former president trump might end up back in the oval office? >> i will do everything i can to

ensure that the former president never again gets anywhere near the oval office. >> okay. and then after those remarks she sat down with nbc's savannah guthrie to discuss the future of her battered party. >> are you the leader of the opposition in exile right now in the republican party? >> i intend to be the leader -- one of the leaders in a fight to help to restore our party. >> a lot of people frame this as the battle for the soul of the republican party. >> this is the opening salvo in that battle and it's a battle we have to win because it's not just about the republican party, it's about the country. >> the trump political team is actively looking to could he a legs around a primary challenger to you. what is your message for them? >> you know, bring it on. >> okay. so this is the person now standing in the gap against trumpism.

the biggest man in the party of trump marionettes in castratti is a woman. she's an unusual person. hawkish neocon who hales from the house of dick cheney, but in this moment when democracy needs allies, she is and must be our ally nonetheless. that's how much danger our democracy is in, folks. the democrats, liberals, progressives and those like me who vehemently oppose the war against iraq, birtherism, all the other uglies in modern history. we need to set aside those deep ideological differences now to fight what is arguably the most antiradical movement in the country. unlike puppet kenyon, cheney isn't in this for her political vision. she's in it to salvage what's

left of her party and more importantly to fight for our democracy. one of the only ones left really who's willing to risk her position to fight what her party has become, a party that's rapidly by the day devolving into a reality circus act punctuated with childish tantrums and farrist theater, a party that is now officially split between a trumpian identity cult that poses a national security threat to the united states and those like cheney, politicians who made entire careers out of calling for exporting democracy to places like iraq and who now have to fight to save democracy at home. joining me now is nicole wallace, my friend and host of "deadline white house" which are airs on msnbc at 4 p.m. eastern and matthew doud, founder of country over party. i want to thank you, nicole,

from my whiney text. i knew your show was going to be fire. you opened with appeasement and you worked at high levels in the republican party. you know liz cheney personally so i want to play a little bit of what she had to say to savannah guthrie and then i have a question for you. >> do you think leader mccarthy has placed his own ambitions to be speaker of the house above principle? >> i think that he is not leading with principle right now and i think that it is -- it's sad and i think it's dangerous and i think that we are at a moment where the republican party has to have leaders that are focused on principle. >> nicole, why is she doing this? am i mischaracterizing that she is in this fight for the democracy? why is she doing it? what actually is she capable of doing to fight trumpism? >> well, i think you tied it together better than i did, better than anyone has all day. she hales from the wing of the

republican party that if i'm being perfectly blunt was what drove matthew doud out of the bush coalition and what possibly propelled donald trump to lead the republican party. she hails from the hawkish pro area. covering this as a security story is the right way to go. she sees her own party as a threat to democracy and a threat to our national security. it means she can read. it means she can read the threat warnings that have come out from the department of homeland security and the most senior law enforcement agencies, that the big lie is the ideology now that underpins the gravest threat to domestic security. so i think the fact that liz cheney has the courage to say all of those things is the story, but i think the other half of it is that everyone else refuses to see what's right before their eyes, that they're all backing and bolstering and cheering and ousting someone who

is speaking the truth that is available to all of them. >> that is, i think, such an important point. it is one of the main reasons that i wanted to have nicole on tonight. nicole talks so much about national security on her show, matthew, and that to me is the most frightening thing. kevin mccarthy is gang of 8. he understands just as well as liz cheney does, he's seen the same briefings, he's heard the former -- you know, the leaders even in the republican -- even in the trump administration, chris rey say there is a national security threat posed by white nationalism that's been ginned up from birtherism and on and gotten stronger and stronger and stronger until trump brought it to a head. why is kevin mccarthy throwing out liz cheney, saying they are a big tent saying we care about embrace free thought and debate. that's the whole big lie. what's going on?

>> well, again, it's great to be on with you, too, especially my friend nicole. and i -- she's right. i've been in the wilderness a lot longer than she has but she's been in the wilderness for the last few years. to me, this is -- i don't think it's an illogical thing for what the republicans just did. if you understand where the republican party is. there's not really a split in the republican party. liz cheney does not have a party and liz cheney and others, adam kinsinger and others are acting like there's a reality out there like there's some republican party that exists that no longer exists. they don't belong in the republican party anymore. if you are pro democracy, pro truth, pro facts, you don't fit in that party anymore. it's not just donald trump, it's 80% of republican base voters go along with that. to me, at some point they have to ask themselves the question, am i facilitating and enabling a party that's going to push this by staying in it?

that's my issue with liz cheney, adam kinsinger and mitt romney and others. what happens if the house is taken over by the senate. the reason why it will be taken over is because adam kinsinger, liz cheney and mitt romney stayed in the republican party so they will facilitate this happening. and so i think it's incumbent upon all of us to make the statement clear, the republican party is this. she -- i don't know what battle she's fighting in the republican party anymore because that battle's over. it's been won by the trump, it's been won by the white supremacists. they are the republican party. they have to figure out where does she exist in the society because the gop she thought she was in is gone. >> it's a good point, nicole. you have madison hawthorne out there dunking on her.

that is the party now. these people are just minions to donald trump. they don't really exist for any other reason. that is the question. there is talk that some people are saying it's time to form another party. you have myles on that's anonymous. it's hard for all of those. and he always pulls to the next. you can't choose which parts of the big lie are the threat to democracy. the idea that the big lie emboldens the liar and the liar is on a crusade. those are her words. he's on a crusade to damage our democracy. well, you can't sort of take

that part out of the big lie and then not help the democrats pass voting rights. i mean, there's legislation that is also built on the big lie. 47 states are looking at close to 400 bills that would roll back voting rights and access to the polls based on the big lie. so i admire what liz cheney did, but she can't now pick and choose which parts of the big lie she's going to fight on. if it's a threat to democracy, then you also have to protect people in all 47 states. it's a lot to put on her. s in the party while a lot of this was going on. >> the thing is, matthew doud, that is such an important point. i take the first big lie having been birtherism, which she was down with. the idea you could say the president of the united states was not legitimate, it emboldened particularly white voters to divorce themselves from the idea of democracy. if somebody like barack obama is president, that is illegitimate.

donald trump didn't invent it. to nicole's point, it may be too late to save a party that's gone down that road of saying to white working class voters, the only legitimate elections where who you want is elected. if that doesn't happen, all those voters are illegitimate, that president is illegitimate. unless you get your way even if through violence nothing is legitimate. how do you pull that back? >> to me, it actually -- i trace it back further than the birtherism. i think that if we really look at this and trace it back to where this sort of started, where this virus began and where it really started taking off, it was in the mid '90s and in the mid '90s with newt gingrich and they were facing the prospect that the diversity of america was blossoming and people of color, women were starting to push themselves into power and at the table. they didn't like that.

what else rose in the mid '90s? fox news. that growth over that time. george w. bush, he had his faultsz. i broke with him. he was a decent man and believed in the constitution. he was able to cobble it together and keep the crazies at bay for a while. sarah palin drew larger crowds as the vice presidential candidate than john mccain did as the presidential candidate among republicans. that should have told us what was coming. and donald trump didn't take over the party, donald trump was an effect of the party. they nominated donald trump for who he was. he told everybody full scale who he was and they nominated him. and so that's what i think the problem is. so where does liz cheney go and what do we do here? the problem for liz cheney is, the republican conservatives who don't like trump, you know what they represent of america? 5% of america are represented by

conservative republicans who don't like donald trump. so what do they do? i mean, that's the problem that we're faced with in america, when for the first time in our history, joy, one of the two legacy parties has been taken over by white supremacists and conspiracy theories. we've never had that in our history. one whole party has been taken over. >> it's definite jim jones vibes. my question for you, nicole, you've worked for former president bush. liz cheney said it's not about policy, it's not about partisanship. she's going to do whatever it takes to make sure donald trump was not president again. she was able to pull her father and other former secretaries of defense for an op ed. are we going to start to hear the former president speak up? is she going to be able to get her father to speak up? is it going to take the principles to start coming forward? john boehner dropped the ball when he had his opportunity. >> look, it's going to make it really hard for all the republicans who said that they didn't vote for anybody or they

wrote in, you know, a dead revered former republican. it's going to put them on the spot now that liz cheney has made this about the democracy being in danger. liz cheney has credibility with the people who did those things. my private conversations, and i still have a lot of them, with those who worry about the nation's security, who were white knuckled the last four years, there is still a lot of good they could do in terms of moderate republicans, independent republicans, swing voters, i think matthew would call them the kinds of voters that may not be registered in either party. >> absolutely. >> those people hearing from liz cheney if she can set off a domino effect where prominent former republicans hear from them, they maybe become biden republicans. i think the potential -- just watching president biden today, he has a super power of giving space and grace to people who do

not deserve it. i've said this on with you before, joy. kevin mccarthy did not deserve the space and grace that the president gave him today but he may be playing this longer game where he doesn't take the bait and swing voters who, you know, they're wary of either party. they may just start voting with president biden and his policies and sort of down the ticket and it may represent a realignment. that is perhaps our best hope. >> it's like punching a marshmallow. he's very difficult to fight. i think he does have that power. you guys were the best people i wanted to talk to in this a block. thank you very much. god bless us all. thank you. up next on "the reid out," kevin mccarthy has no idea of the pandora's box he's opened. there's a group of o.g.

conservatives. just as cheney warned, republicans were in complete denial about their hero's culpability about the january 6th insurrection. my friend lawrence o'donnell is here. he's here with a preview of his exclusive interview with president biden which airs tonight at 10 p.m. eastern. "the reid out" continues after this. front desk. yes, hello... i'm so... please hold. ♪♪ i got you. ♪ all by yourself. ♪ go with us and get millions of flexible booking options. expedia. it matters who you travel with. step up. prep up. to help keep you free from the risk of hiv. descovy for prep. a once-daily prescription medicine... ...that helps lower the chances of getting hiv through sex. it's not for everyone. descovy for prep has not been studied in people assigned female at birth. talk to your doctor to find out if it's right for you. descovy is another way to prep. descovy does not prevent other sexually transmitted infections,

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kevin mccarthy made the decision to take his party to war. the puppet kevin might want to better acquaint himself with the person he's up against. while she may only represent a minority of her party in a small, small state. she's not lisz jones, she's liz cheney. let's be honest, her family has

been living and breathing the dark side of american politics at the highest reaches of power for five decades dating back to the days when her father, dick cheney, served as chief of staff to president ford in the vietnam era. he was president of defense under the first president bush. he was elected as vice president under george w. bush where he pushed a needles war to bring democracy to iraq and to grab some leverage over that country's oil reserves. in other words, the cheneys are the living embodiment of the industrial complex. those resources could be brought to bear in liz cheney's fight against trump. after all, she secretly got an op ed in the washington post. ironically it was neoconservatives who opened the door to trump's rise to power. the war in iraq so broke the

faith of many americans with government and so exhausted many working class voters that many of them embraced the demagogue in donald j. trump who says he opposed the invasion. adam serwer wrote cheb any's courageous stand against the party of trump is a stand against a party she helped build, a monster she created. the author of "the cruelty is the point, the past, present, future of trump's america." and with us is the former house oversight committee spokesman when he was in the other party. adam, this is the logo, it should be the logo of the trump administration. i can't wait to read your book, it's so brilliant. tease out for us a little bit why you believe this is cheney's own monster that she's now trying to sleigh. >> thank you for saying that, first of all. i mean, i think you see as liz

cheney's father put it, 9/11 led cheney and the bush administration lead to they had to go to, quote, the dark side. what that means is you enter a state of emergency where previously unjustifiable things become justifiable. when that lasts for 20 years, you know, that war mentality eventually turns itself inward. you can see this with the way that trump talks about things like torture, giving pardons to, you know, convicted war criminals, to police who have abused their powers. you know, there is this belief that the law doesn't apply to certain people if they're breaking it for certain reasons that, you know, they justify as being okay. in this case, because, you know, trump told his supporters that, you know, the election was

illegitimate, then the insurrection was justified. that liz cheney made on behalf s of the things the bush administration did but also, you know, when the obama administration was trying to uphold the rule of law, when it was trying to try terrorists in courts and reject torture and reject these kinds of dark side things that the previous administration had embraced in the name of fighting terrorism. liz cheney said these laws don't matter. what matters is survival and, therefore, we can just disregard the constitution and the rule of law as, you know, something that weaklings invoke when they're trying to justify being weak. >> yes. >> unfortunately that is, you know, exactly the attitude trump took. he said, we have to be tough. we have to be nasty. until the insurrection, obviously you mentioned she helped organize the op ed by former secretaries of state, which is significant, but until

recently liz cheney did not speak out against that type of politics and that type of politics, in fact, she embraced it. she was complimented by steve scalise and other people who embraced trump style politics who the trump party needed tore more like. i think that what she's doing now is really brave, really admirable. at the same time, you know, she did not have the foresight to see ten years ago where this kind of politics would lead and now, you know, we're all paying for it. i might -- what i might add to that is that mccarthy and the republican leadership and all of the people who are indulging trump in this way who know the election was not stolen, who think they are play acting here, you know, they are simply laying the seeds for a more liberal turn in the future. >> you know, it is a good point. you were in the republican party, you know, during that era, kurt. i think it is true.

i don't see how you get around that, right? trump came in and did the muslim ban first. that is the product of the old thinking that these people are non-people, that immigrants are non-people. this is not a new thing, so then my question is though despite all of that, she's still a cheney. she still has the resources and the contacts and the ability to reach out into that old republican world. how much damage could she theoretically do to someone like kevin mccarthy if she wanted to or trump? >> that's the thing, joy. this isn't liz brown, this is liz cheney. a name that is engrained in the political lexicon, in the american electorate. i'll tell you, when you're dealing with cheney, this is not some helpless person, this is not someone who's going to be intimidated. this is not someone who is going to live in fear. this is someone who has a lifetime of legacy, friends, allies, supporters, a professional network to tap into

to make life very difficult for kevin mccarthy, for donald trump, and she's made it very clear she's not going to go quietly into the night. she's not stepping aside from the podium, microphone and the stage. in fact, because of all of this and the way this has gone down, she has an even bigger microphone now and in their haste to silence and purge liz cheney, what kevin mccarthy and the house republican party have done is amplified her. they have liberated her to now stand up, speak forwardly and lead this charge against them, and i think that they are going to rue the day that they kicked her out of leadership and removed those barriers and boundaries because now she's going to take it right to them. i'll tell you, there are few people i'd want to be in fight with. a cheney is one of them because as we've seen, cheneys can do a hell of a lot of damage. >> i'm tell you, it's ramsey bowles. it is not an easy fight and not

necessarily good guys and bad guys. they're about to fight each other. adam serwer and kurt, thank you very much. key figures in the trump administration try to defend their response to the capital insurrection. even more interesting than what they had to say is what they were supposed to say but didn't. we'll be right back. and you could save an average th of four hundred and sixty-seven dollars on your auto insurance. (man) phone it in? way ahead of you. daddy's saving money. (burke) go ahead, phone it in. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

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by ousting congresswoman liz cheney from leadership, the republican party is 100% committed to erasing the january 6th insurrection and the role donald trump played in inspiring the attack. to be clear, this is what they're trying to flush down the memory hole. most americans can't forget the terror and trauma of that day. the republicans, they want us to forget. they need us to forget. that's why they're rewriting history. take a look at these house republicans during a hearing on the trump administration's preparations and response to the capitol insurrection. >> there was no insurrection and to call it an insurrection in my opinion is a lie.

if you didn't know this was a video from january 6th, you would think it was a normal tourist visit. >> it was trump supporters who lost their lives that day, not trump supporters who were taking the lives of others. >> do you recall the name of the young lady, a veteran wrapped in an american flag that was killed in the u.s. capitol. as the death certificate said, it was a homicide. who executed ashley babbitt? >> witnesses included christopher miller, the former acting defense secretary and robert conti, head of the metropolitan police department. miller was suppose the to tell the committee that he, quote, personally believed trump's comments encouraged the protesters, end quote. miller omitted that phrase from his remarks. california congressman ro khanna tore into miller for failing to do more. >> secretary miller, i have never been more offended on this committee by a witness statement

than yours. you were more concerned about defending your own reputation and justifying your own actions than the sanctity of this capitol and the sanctity of our democracy. >> joining me now is congressman eric swallow who is a trump impeachment manager earlier in the year and is in a lawsuit over the capitol insurrection. congressman, this reminds me of the rewrite that conservatives have done about the civil war trying to change what it was about, trying to soften it and, you know, rewrite it in american history. this isn't something that happened 100 years ago, this happened 120 days ago. here's the first one. a normal tourist visit. let me show you some video. this is officer eugene goodman leading terrorists, domestic terrorists away from -- well, tell us what would have been -- if they had gone the other direction, this is officer goodman. if those domestic terrorists had gone the other direction, where

would they have been, congressmen? >> they would have been in the senate chamber and they would have murdered senators. >> let me show you another thing. this defense of the woman in talking about trying to make the woman who was shot, ashley babbitt, the -- sort of a hero i guess now on the right. i want to show you another group of these domestic terrorists, insurrectionists attacking the speaker's lobby. take a look at that. >> let's go! . get the [ bleep ]. >> [ bleep ]. >> now in other angles you can see there is a capitol police officer holding a gun guarding the other side of that capitol and the so-called men by the way let a woman to be the first to breach the door, ashley babbitt who was shot who was an air

force veteran. if they had gotten through those doors, what would have been on the other side of those doors, congressman? >> members of congress and the slowest, least mobile members who were the last to leave the chamber. god bless that officer who saved so many lives as a murderous mob tried to storm the chamber and also, joy, i just have to say, it's so frustrating to watch this and hear my colleagues try and erase history. erase their role in inciting that murderous mob. we cannot forget. we can frankly also, joy, it's police week this week and you have hundreds of capitol police and metropolitan police officers who are still grieving, still suffering from what was inflicted upon them. and to hear that we're supposed to back the blue but they can't back the blue, my republican colleagues who protected the

capitol that day, it's very disheartening. >> you spoke with one of these officers, officer mike fenone who we've all come to know about the interviews he's given. he talked about in a letter he wrote to everyone in congress. he was pulled into the crowd, beaten, he was tased. he survived hand-to-hand combat. he's still suffering from ptsd. people are indifferent to it and it's disgraceful. you have spoken to him, correct? what does he say now about what he's hearing coming from these republican members? >> i just spoke to him before coming on your show, and he's so upset and so troubled that what he experienced having his own gun attempted to be taken away from him, being cattle prodded, suffering a heart attack, losing consciousness would be described as a normal tour at the capitol. he and others are having a hard time grappling with what happened that day. he was beaten by a blue lives

matter flag pole and so to really try and normalize what happened that day discounts his heroism, it discounts the lives that were lost from law enforcement that day and the days after and he just wants republicans and democrats because he doesn't give a rip about politics to acknowledge that this is not normal. that those people sought to overturn an election and they used violence and force against police officers to try to carry it out. >> has he spoken with kevin mccarthy, the leader -- i put that in scare quotes. has he spoken with kevin mccarthy? >> no. now kevin mccarthy's office is calling him a liar. the officer called me today saying he's been trying to reach mccarthy for weeks. he made a call today and was hung up on by kevin mccarthy's staff. kevin mccarthy's staff tweeted out that that did not occur and

just imagine putting your life on the line as officer fenone did, going unconscious, having your four girls fear for your life and the death threats that have come out since you told your truth about what you experienced. kevin mccarthy won't even meet with him but now his staff is saying he's a liar. >> wow. >> all he wants to do is tell mccarthy what he's experienced and why we can't forget it. >> that is unbelievable. that is unbelievable and these are people who suppose city sidly support police. that is a hell of a way you support police. thank you for sharing that with us and officer fenone, mike fenone is welcome on the show or maybe he should be subpoenaed and speak before congress. then maybe mccarthy will listen to him. wow. cheers. wow. up next, president biden holds his first meeting with congressional leaders, including the puppet, kevin, about how to pay for his ambitious agenda.

biden wants to raise taxes on the wealthy. can you guess how republicans respond to that idea? lawrence o'donnell fresh off his interview with the president. he will be here. stay with us. , microwaves, gas ranges and grills. and if you're looking for... (burke) phone it in to 1-800-farmers to get policy perks, like a home and auto-bundle discount. (man) i'm phoning it in and just saved twenty percent. (burke) get your policy perks by calling 1-800-farmers. go ahead, phone it in. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

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if you are not together and can't go home. remind your parents to pack an emergency supply kit. making a plan might feel like homework, but it will help you and your family stay safe during an emergency. 100% of our focus is on stopping this new administration. 100% of my focus is on standing up to this administration. what we have in the united states senate is total unity from susan collins to ted cruz and opposition. >> mitch mcconnell. biden with his back room deal making credentials, he met with republican leaders to discuss

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joining me now is lawrence o'donnell. vaccinating america at 10:00 p.m. eastern which includes an exclusive interview with president biden. do we have another clip? i think we have an additional clip. let me know in my ear if we have an additional clip. tell me, first of all, speak,

okay, let's play the clip first. here's the clip. >> you're coming up against something we've never seen before, in any vaccination program or public health program, which is a partisan resistance to vaccination. how are you going to convince them to get the vaccine? >> they're showing up. all this stuff about vaccine hesitancy. the truth of the matter is, more and more and more people are getting the vaccine. and so i've never believed that there would be a large percentage of americans who wouldn't get the vaccine. >> the data does not back that up. does his optimism seem unrealistic? >> no, it's joe biden. and you know, i have to kind of break the wall of the interview at a certain point because i know what he's doing. he's the kind of guy who when i was working with him over in the united states senate would always take the one positive thing you said, you'd be standing there, and republican senator in the hallway talking to him.

nine horrible things in a row about how no chance, no way. the last thing you say to him is a slightly positive thing. he'd turn around from that and say to me, he'd only tell me the positive. so that's the way he begins and that is actually the way people who are serious about legislation handle it until it becomes absolutely clear that those nine bad things the guy said, that's going to control the situation. you're never going to get a compromise on this person. but he's up against something remarkable. we all know, you get to a point maybe in your life when you have to face a competency test. maybe take the keys away from grandma from driving the car. one of the questions you're going to be asked in any mental competency test you'll get is who is the president of the united states? joy, there's tens of millions of people who get that question wrong right now. and they are not taking the

vaccine because they think they know better than dr. fauci and i don't know how you get through to that. >> so you have this town hall tonight that is about the vaccines and that is my biggest fear, honestly, and i wonder if in talking with, i'm so jealous you got to talk with -- do they fear we will not get to herd immunity, be in a cycle of the virus forever? >> dr. fauci will talk about that because that's our question. if i'm getting the vaccine, if all these people get the vaccine and then over there, a bunch of people who aren't, are they a threat to us? and the answer is it depends basically on how many of them there are. and that is the question of herd immunity not 100%. you don't have to get 100% of the people immune to get the so-called group immunity, herd immunity. and so that issue is something that the scientists still work on because this is a new virus.

so the number varies. dr. fauci told me we know what herd immunity is for measles. we know exactly what it is, what the number is. so what we'd like to do is get as many people as possible vaccinated. if you get up around 90, you'll have herd immunity. the question is, do you get it at 70? if you get it at 70, herd immunity at 70, we'll probably get there. >> you got a chance to meet and talk with dr., and those who were hesitant, her existence is what convinced them to do it. this black woman was part of developing the vaccine. i was trying to get the moderna because of it. i took what i could get. you want to get me pfizer. i'll take it. is she aware of that status that she has in terms of being an inspiration that gets people pumped about the vaccine? >> she told me her niece who saw

some article about her somewhere recently. are you famous? yeah, i think if you're 34 years old and you basically invent the moderna vaccine, then you ought to be famous. we're paying attention to the wrong people if you're not famous. and she is just a remarkable story. growing up in hillsborough, north carolina, and taking a real interest in science in high school and having a teacher in high school who spotted her and said, whoa, to this day said best student i ever had, which doesn't surprise me. and she explains something really important, which is this notion that this was done, pardon the expression, warp speed. sure. because she had been working on it six years before covid-19 appeared. what she was working on was a kind of vaccine that could deal with quickly with any strain of covid, any strain of coronavirus

that might emerge. so she had built this with her team over a number of years. so the friday in january of last year when they got basically the code for the coronavirus, so-called sequencing which describes how it behaves, that's when the vaccine builders know what they have to build. they know what they have, how it has to look. and so that comes out on a friday. she spends the weekend, she spends the weekend working on it and has it by monday. and she told that to joe biden. there's video of her telling that to joe biden over the weekend and joe biden had exactly the reaction we have. joy, when i was 34 years old, my weekends, my weekends did not include anything half serious. >> i feel completely inadequate.

>> she's amazing. >> incredible career too. did kevin mccarthy walk out of the meetings today, sent out a text saying, radical joe biden is going to have a socialist agenda blah. what do you think, did he indicate what he thinks of this person who i just call a puppet? >> i think joe biden knows exactly what he's doing, which is he is doing this attempt, this very public attempt to work with them. very good sign about the meeting. the one thing you always want to know about the meeting is, two things you want to know. one, how long did it go? this was a meeting that on substance, when you assume there's zero coming from the republican sofa in the oval office and why should the democratic sofa in the oval office bother saying anything since these zeros aren't going to say anything? that meeting in content can be 15 minutes and you're really done. for show, they're going to make it an hour to pretend something

serious is happening here. this went way into overtime. that's an extremely good sign because these meetings go into overtime only, they go past the hour only when this discussion is worth continuing. mitch mcconnell is already up to a willingness of $800 billion on infrastructure. >> i'll take that optimism into my evening. >> optimism. try it for a weekend. >> i got to make sure i get home in time to watch your special. thank you. we'll watch your interview with president biden and his covid team. msnbc town hall. right here on msnbc but right now, readout is done. chris hays starts now. is done chris hays starts now. tonight on "all in". >> i will do everything i can to ensure that the former president