>> fixed. >> fixed. >> fixed. >> bad things. bad things happening with voting. >> fraud. >> fraud. >> fraud. >> fraud. >> fraud. >> fraud. >> fraud. >> fraud cheating. >> cheating. >> cheating. hoax. networks of msnbc news good night. >> really happy to have you here, there is a lot going on in the news right now. but first of all you need to know that lawrence o'donnell has an interview with president biden coming up right after the show, an hour from now at 10 pm

eastern. his interview with the president is part of this blockbuster town hall that lawrence husker tonight on msnbc, that'll include not only his exclusive interview with president biden, but he's also got doctor anthony fauci, and vivek murphy and the health and human services secretary xavier becerra, and the superstar 34-year-old scientists, dr. kizzmekia corbett, who was on the team at moderna that develop the covid vaccine. that is all coming up tonight on lawrence is special town hall that he has here on msnbc at the top of this hour starting at 10:00 eastern. that town hall, and all of that news, that'll comes on the day where the cdc has just given approval for kids 12 and up to get vaccinated. we're gonna have more on that story a little later on including some of the practicalities in terms of what it means for you and your family, if you have kids aged

12 to 15 in your household. but honestly i'm under no illusions, i recognize this hour that i'm here tonight as the run up, i am the on ramp to learns his big night tonight. i have a little bit of a heads up about the news that was made, and his interview with joe biden. but i will not step on it, you can watch the whole thing at the top of the hour, just stay with me. i don't news today particularly around covid as all developing as some of the states are trying to get, creative, is not even a strong enough word in terms of the new incentives they're laying out to get their residents vaccinated. you may have seen headlines tonight about the new announcement from ohio's republican government mike dewine. he has announced that ohio's about to start holding weekly lotteries, weekly drawings and when i first saw that headline i saw a lottery to get a vaccine in ohio? i thought that a vaccine was

not really something that you had to scramble too hard to get, we have them, you don't even need appointments. the lotteries they are holding go the other direction, if it is not a lottery to get the vaccine it's a lot or if you had a vaccine. they're going to do to lottery drawings per week for five straight weeks. the first one is for adults, ohio residents aged 18 and over. here is governor dewine tonight announcing it, quote two weeks from tonight on may 26, we will announce a winner of a drawing for adults who have received at least their first dose of the vaccine. this announcement will occur each wednesday for five weeks and the winner each wednesday will receive $1 million. it's that kind of lottery. it's not a lottery to get a vaccine, it's a lottery if you've got a vaccine you can get 1 million bucks. if you get vaccinated in ohio he will be entered in a drawing to win $1 million.

they're given away 1 million dollars five weeks in a row. seriously. that is one of the drawings, that's where people 18 and up. the other drawing is if you are 17 years old and younger in the state of ohio. you can enter a different drawn, quote, on wednesday may 2016 will announce the drawing of all those age 17 years or under who have been vaccinated. the winner will receive a full, four-year scholarship to our state of ohio university's. this will include tuition, room and board and books. we will do this every wednesday for five straight wednesdays -- each time randomly selecting one students to receive the full four year scholarship. governor mike dewine of ohio saying an explanation quote, those who are not vaccinated remain prey to the virus. we hope for a good summer, but we also have to be able to get through the dark days of winter, to do that we need a much higher percentage of ohioans to be vaccinated.

1 million dollar give away to people who get the vaccine and free for your college scholarships, that is a very high profile way to try to incentivize people to get vaccinated. we will see. we will see if it works. like i said, there is a lot of news that has happened over the course of the day and into tonight. tonight we have also just had the news that they have restarted the biggest fuel pipeline in the country, the colonial pipeline that runs from the gulf coast all the way to the northeast corner of the country. this resort comes six days, six days after that pipeline was shut down during a cyber attack against the pipeline by a foreign hacking group that appears to be based and russia, or eastern europe. honestly, we have been covering this since it has happened but i feel like the pipeline shut down, the consequences of the pipeline shutdown including the panic buying and fuel shortages particularly in the southeast, i feel like it has mostly been

covered in the news as if the pipeline were the sight of some kind of accident. as if there was some kind of natural disaster that crept the supplies, and affected it for a few days. this wasn't that. this wasn't a tap, a deliberate plan, sophisticated attack on the single largest fuel conduit in the united states. it was successful in taking that pipeline off line for almost a week. it is of for an attack. russia likes this kind of crime when it messes stuff up in the west. also because the russian government likes to be able to call on criminal groups like this to do favors for the kremlin when the kremlin wants these kinds of skills, when they want to use hackers to inflict pain on some for their own purposes. they want possible deniability of it not being brush and actor so they enlist those criminal

gangs that they have let operate within their borders. to do favors for them. they turn a blind eye while they wreak this kind of havoc in the united states and around the west. this sort of dystopian sci-fi nightmare about these types of attacks for years was that a hostile foreign power of some kind would take down the electrical grid, shut down access to electricity in the united states. what's happened here with this colonial pipeline attack, it didn't rise to the level of that nightmare, but it is the same kind of tree. it did shutter the conduit that supplies have the fuel on the east coast. and they've apparently gone away with it, and it was very successful. and there are all of these open questions that remain. did the attackers get access to the control systems for the pipelines. they have the ability to

physically control the pipeline, either to shut it off, turn it back on or to sabotage its operations. we don't know. why was this such an effective attack, particularly on a piece of infrastructure that is so crucial to the area of the united states? doesn't matter if the company paid a ransom, the white house has been unwilling to answer questions about whether the company paid ransom which led to a lot of speculation of the company paying ransom. statement from the company shed some doubts on that, but we don't know. does that matter if they paid the ransom in terms of best practices for dealing with this kind of attack? how long has it taken the pipeline to get up and running again. and now that they do have it up and running again, do we expect that the attackers have been thoroughly repulsed? now that this pipeline is open to get again tonight, should we expect that it is just a matter of time before it gets jerked again and we are at their mercy again?

this was not a natural disaster, this was not an accident of some kind, this was an attack on our country. it is done by a hacking group that says that they don't car target government into tees. they have the hacker code of conduct, they won't target hospitals, nonprofits, but the u.s. profit mobilize tons of resources to mitigate the impact of this attack, limit the material consequences of the attack. but does the u.s. government also now treat this as an attack on our country? and if so, what is the right response to this kind of an attack on are privately owned but critical infrastructure? hard questions for what remains a scary situation even as the pipeline gets started up again. we have just the guy here tonight to talk about that, again the pipeline does finally seem to be restarting and as president biden tonight has just issued a new lengthy

executive order on cybersecurity standards in the u.s. as both in terms of the government and private industries. that is a story that is still developing very quickly, we're gonna get to a lot more on that over the course of the hour. but like i said, it is a busy news day. even all that is just scratching at the surface of the news tonight, there's so much going on. for example, over the course of the last week we have reported on the implications of a new court ruling from a federal judge in washington d.c.. this is a judge who ruled that the trump administration attorney general william barr, had been in the judges words, disingenuous. he had been disingenuous, he had effectively lied, not just to the american people and to congress but also to the court, which is a bad thing to do if you are anybody but particularly if you are the attorney general of the united states. in an angry ruling, at least or ruling that appear to be driven by some emotion, she very

bluntly ordered the justice department to release a document they've been trying to keep secret for years. this is the document that william barr when he was attorney general he used this document to create a purported justification for the justice department not bringing criminal charges against former president donald trump. the robert mueller investigation into russia interfering in our election in 2016, that investigation, when they produced the report, they published copious details of more than ten instances for which there was significant evidence that former president trump might have committed crimes, specifically he might have committed obstruction of justice. it was just a week and a half ago when this federal judge ruled that william barr contrary to his statements, contrary to his statements to the court, she rule that barr actually never substantively considered the evidence against trump. she rolled from her view of the record that william barr just

determined from his out said, regardless of the evidence, that trump would not be charged. and in her ruling she has ordered the justice department to release documents about that, really soon. by monday. the justice department under new management, under merrick garland could appeal that but if they don't she has ordered them to release the document that the trump administration tried to keep secrets all these years. she's already told us whatever review of that document and of the justice department actions around that time indicated about the process that was followed in terms of deciding whether or not trump would be criminally charge. what she's told us already in the rulings that the justice department didn't substantively consider possibly criminal charges against donald trump despite the evidence that was laid out against him. but of course now they could. and on top of that very pregnant revelation about the former president and his

criminal liability, the expected release of that document they want to kept secret, which we think will come out next monday. on top of all of that, late last night we got this new news, that a deal has been reached finally after all this time for president trump's white house -- to testify for the first time about what he saw in the trump white house and would former president trump did while he was in office. this is a big deal. because as i've said the mueller investigation outlined in detail more than ten instances where president trump committed felony obstruction of justice while he was in the white house. most of these incidents were described through the eyes of don mcgahn, mcgahn asked trump's white house counsel gave multiple interviews over dozens of hours to mueller's prosecutors. those prosecutors determined by the rules of the role that it wasn't their call as to whether or not an indictment should be the end purpose of mcgahn's

testimony, whether they should take his testimony about trump's behavior and use it to seek a criminal indictment of donald trump. they said they couldn't make that decision, they couldn't try to bring an indictment against trump, because that was a justice department policy against indicting any sitting president. but they also said explicitly that the same justice department policy also recognizes that a president does not have immunity after he leaves office. well, donald trump has left office, there is no justice department policy protecting him from being indicted nine. the statute of limitation has not run on the conduct that was described in the mueller report. and the evidence against him, in terms of these multiple serious allegations of obstruction of justice, that evidence was, in the mueller report, obtained and preserved, laid out very orderly, laid out in an orderly way by mueller's investigators, a federal judge has just ruled within the past weeks that the justice

department at the time, they never looked substantively at that evidence while trump was president. they never made a determination as to why work charges against trump -- and, just last night a deal was finally reached to finally have testimony for the first time from the main witness against the former president for those obstruction of justice allegations. it seems like a big deal. deal the timing of it is experience. that is all coming together, that revived prospect of serious, federal, criminal liability for former president trump, that is all coming to a point today as the republican party hits this new apex. as they summit this new peak today in terms of the bizarre hold that trump has over their

party and what loyalty to him looks like among republican party officials and politicians. as you know, this is been exhaustively covered, the number three republican leader in congress, liz cheney today was voted out of that leadership job by her colleagues in the house. seems telling to me that they were so brave, they wouldn't even take a roll call vote on that they just didn't buy a vote vote and nobody would have to be on the record in terms of what they did today to throw her out of office. cheney herself is still a member of congress in good standing, and each day she proves herself well and truly capable of keeping the record straight herself. >> we have had the conference meeting, i am absolutely committed as i have said last night, and as i've said just now to my colleagues that we must go forward based on truth, we cannot both embrace the big

lie and embrace the constitution. going forward, the nation needs it, the nation needs a strong republican party. the nation needs a party that is based upon fundamental principles of conservatism. i am committed and dedicated to ensuring that that is how this party goes forward and i plan to lead the fight to do that. >> congresswoman how concerned are you that former president trump might end up back in the oval office and what are you gonna do to prevent it? >> i will do everything i can to ensure that the former president never again gets near the oval office. we have seen the danger that he continues to provoke with his language, we have seen his lack of commitment and dedication to the constitution. i think it is very important that we make sure whoever we elect somebody who will be faithful to the constitution. >> do you feel betrayed by today's vote? congresswoman, do you feel

betrayed by today's vote? >> i do not. i think that it is an indication of where the republican party is and i think that the party is in a place that we have to bring it back from, we have to get back to a position where we are a party that can fight for conservative principles. we can fight for substance, we cannot be dragged back wards by the very dangerous lies of a former president, thank you. >> we cannot be dragged backwards by the very dangerous lies of a former president, the parties at a place we have to bring it back from. she says i will do everything i can to ensure that the former president never again gets anywhere near the oval office, we have seen the danger that he continues to provoke. congresswoman liz cheney putting herself for today as the first person who had her words will lead the republican party away from trump and specifically his ongoing lies at the last election was somehow illegitimate. she is describing those lies as dangerous and an ongoing way, saying that they represent today, not just the rejection

of democracy by the republican party but the continued threat of more violence if this fantasy continues to be stoked among the republican party and its fans, but the last election was some sort of crime against the previous president who ought to still be in the white house and he must be avenged. let's cheney says that she is going to lead this effort for her party. it'll be interesting to see what that looks like. she no longer has a nominal leadership job in the republican party. she still a member of congress but she has lost her leadership post in congress. you know, it should be noted though that the people who do have those nominal leadership jobs in the republican party, they don't really seem to know how to handle this moment and what to say about what's going on in their party. take a case in point tonight from senator mitch mcconnell. senator mcconnell really unable to swim himself to shore

tonight under persistent, simple, direct calm questioning from fox news host. it undoes the senator here. watch. >> liz cheney ousted from her leadership position this morning in a move pushed by house leader. was that a good decision? >> as it is up to the house to make these kinds of decisions. we're moving ahead in the senate, focusing on the current challenges we have with the new administration. >> when she survived a no confidence vote in february or you spoke out on her behalf and said list shane is a leader with the convictions and the courage to act on them. she is an important leader in our party and in our nation. when you were asked about her at a press conference in kentucky, you seem to go out of your way to avoid expressing that support again. saying 100% my focus is stopping this new administration. why the change? >> there is no change. i stand by what i said about liz cheney before. i'm a great admirer of hers. but as --

that is up to the house republican. >> congresswoman cheney said on the floor last night, we face a threat america has ever seen before. a former president who provoked in the attack on the capitol, she went on to say in an effort to steal the election, he has resumed his aggressive efforts to convince the americans that the election was stolen from him, and risks inciting further violence. is there anything that she says that you disagree with here there? >> i don't know how many times have to tell you. i am focusing on dealing with the conditions we find ourselves in -- >> i hear you senator, and with all due respect president trump, the former president is not focusing on those things. it doesn't seems. he just put out a statement on monday claiming that michigan was stolen and might be overturned. he continues to hammer republicans in different ways, and a lot of republicans seem to be facing the 2022 strategy although former president. so i guess my question is, can you move on like you are saying

without dealing with the former president and when he puts out today about the election? >> your question is about what will the 22 elections be about, if you look at american history the 22 election is very likely to be a referendum on the performance of the new administration. >> i'm gonna try one more time, since april 24th, fund raising emails from republicans have mentioned the former president 97 times, an average of more than five times a day. you're saying that the focus is not on the pass but you're using the former presidents name and republicans are to raise money for 2022. >> look, each individual candidate is going to use whatever appeal they think works to try to raise money. >> yeah. >> i'm not in a money raising business. >> so your party is purging people from the leadership jobs who don't go along with the fantasy that the last election doesn't count. it has led to violence. the people your purging from

your own party are warning it is going to lead to more violence. no comment on that? really? can i try again. expertly done by mr. barrett, at fox news there. but no answer at all from the republican leader of the senate. and it is because, what should be his answer? what is the actual answer? i mean you can as the levers but you could also just watch what they are doing. in the house today, multiple republican members of congress trying to pitch the idea that the january 6th attack on the u.s. capital to try to stop the certification of the election, wasn't that bad. it was actually kind of nice. one republican congressman from georgia said that the attackers were behaving like tourists, what's the big deal? that was andrew clyde republican from georgia. another republican from south carolina, ralph norman saying that there is no reason to believe that the people who attacked the capital where trump supporter. who took a poll of them?

>> of republican congressman from arizona and another one, jody hice, saying that the trump supporters were the real victims on january six and they're all being framed by law enforcement even though they definitely did nothing wrong in the capitol attack, why are you calling it an attack? >> trump's former defense secretary, a junior level pentagon employee who tried to inexplicably may defend secretary right at the end of his term, christopher miller he testified today about the january 6th attack, and wrote in his written opening statement to the committee that people leave that trump's lies about the election would cause his supporters to go attack the capital on january 6th. that was in his written opening statement but when it came time to say those words out loud in his testimony in congress today, he skipped our part. and then said, he actually doesn't believe that anymore, to be clear he believed it last night when he said the

committee a written testimony but then this morning liz cheney got booted from the party for not going along with the trump election fraud fantasy, very soon after christopher miller was due to testify in congress and he decided that he felt like he could no longer say those things about trump and the election fraud, things that he had submitted just last night. as of today, he doesn't think the money more. at least he doesn't think them enough to say them out loud. not with people watching, are you kidding? look what happens to people who say these things out loud. and virginia, the republican party just this week picked as their nominee for governor a guy who says that the single most important issue of the country right now is the trump election fraud conspiracy theory about the minion voting machines. that's the one about venezuela and communists in hugo chavez. virginia republicans did not pick the candidate who calls herself trump in heels, which is what's got all of the attention. there is a candidate who's running as trump in heels, they didn't pick her. you know who they picked

instead? they pick this other guy who doesn't called himself trump in anything, cues just a republican now. billed as a normal republican candidates, but what that means today is that he is absolutely altered with the world crazy is made up on qanon message board about voting machine fantasies, saying that this is the most important thing in the country. because that's what it means to be a republican running for office of right now, not a trumpy one, just a regular republican. arizona, also highs this clown show going on with the republicans in the state senate given all the ballots over to a qanon dominion voting systems conspiracy theory, magic light box audit, were trump supporters and election fraud conspiracy theories are re-counting the actual ballots from arizona's presidential election. this recounted arizona was initially supposed to be done this week but they've now decided that they're gonna stretch it out to july, maybe

august. maybe they can get it to go all the way through september? at least stretch it out to the summer, see how long they can keep it going. why not, right? as long as they can keep the headlines out there but there is a serious recount going on in arizona, the presidential election results are being examined with uv lights. as long as they can keep that story alive keeps the story alive. it hypes the possibility that there was something wrong in the election and that once it is exposed, trump my triumphantly returned to office somehow. it also creates this mp and pretext for anti footing rights, new laws in arizona and around the country. in the midst of that insane nonsense recounted in arizona whether trump conspiracy theories have all the ballots, arizona's republican government just lights not signed a new bill that would purge electors off the mail list, not because there was anything wrong with the vote by mail process, but as long as you create this

noise, this smoke, this muddy water that says it is all being examined, it's all being looked at again and trump keeps up this, that the republican gets inland that there was something wrong that it all needs to be looked at again, then yeah, you can keep passing voting rights restrictions because people think that there might have been something wrong with the election that we need to protect ourselves against next time. it's because this is what trump wants them to do. this is what the election fraud fantasy about the 2020 election creates an imperative for among republican politicians. a they all need to parrot it, be they all need to contribute to this idea that trump was somehow wrong and must be avenged. and also they need to restrict voting rights, all of this mysterious fraud that they can't quite put their finger on but they are pretty sure happens, that gets taken care of by the fact that they are going to rollback voting rights to make it very hard and lots of states, particularly for

democratic pour-leaning electors. so no. senator mitch mcconnell does not have any answers for brett barrett at the news channel who was so persistent with him tonight. he has no answers as to why liz cheney had to lose your job in the republican leadership and whether this election fraud nonsense that she won't tell the lie on, he cannot answer whether that remains an ongoing danger and poses a threat of violence in the future. he doesn't have an answer for that because there is no answer. what are you gonna do, admit the trouble veteran? all of this happening all at once. august we ask yourself, if he did get indicted, the former president being criminally indicted is a live possibility in two different states and potentially in terms of federal charges as well. if he did get indicted, and have to go on trial now for criminal charges. do you think that would break

the fever in the republican party? do you think that might interrupt what they are doing right now? i don't either. there is a lot going on it is a big night with lawrence is interview and there are tons of news, you're going to want to meet our guest tonight for the interview, stay with us. terview, stay with us. terview, stay with us. s. tide pods child-guard pack helps keep your laundry pacs in a safe place and your child safer. to close, twist until it clicks. tide pods child-guard packaging. >> tech: every customer has their own safelite story. this couple was on a camping trip... ...when their windshield got a chip. they drove to safelite for a same-day repair. and with their insurance, it was no cost to them. >> woman: really? >> tech: that's service you can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ this is our block. our place. our people. our block, it's just like yours. full of the people who shaped you.

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as a human event diagram. a live size decoder ring who can help us figure out two of the most important and most intense stories going on in the news right. now here is the first one, the east coast of the country remains in an ongoing fuel crisis, thousands of gestation's have no gas right now. because of a successful cyberattack that result in the country's largest fuel pipeline being taken off line for six straight days. the company that owns the pipeline finally announced late tonight that the pipeline is being turned back on. but they say service destructions will continue for a few days as fuel starts to work its way slowly through the line again. it's 5500 long pipeline -- the fuel shortages attributed to the shutdown of that pipeline, they will end. but the impact has been real and it continues tonight. yeah station through the southeast have been running at a gas airlines have been forced to regroup flights to conserve fuel. the ripple effects of this thing have of course triggered the involvement of the federal government to try to mitigate

the damage from this crisis. one of the federal agencies involved here is of course the fbi, sorting this out as a criminal manner. the other part of the federal government holding the response here, is a lesser known agency called the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency. it is a whole bunch of words, but if you think about it that's pretty perfect in terms of dealing with this pipeline crisis. cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency. see i -- sis a, that's what they call. it that the agency that's in charge of taking care of the critical infrastructure of the nation -- so one of the hacking group takes an attack against the whole -- system is the part of the government that you call or at least that you are supposed to call. they are a key part of the government's defense against this sort of stuff, and this response when it happens. this is a man who you probably remember by sight. his name is christopher krebs. chris krebs was the person in charge of, cisa the agency

during the trump administration. possible that you are cybersecurity, nerd if possible you are a cisa groupie, so you would know that he went through before the election. but if mr. krebs is familiar to you by side it is more likely that you remember him because of the way he lost his job as the head of cisa at the very end of the trump administration. last fall, cisa's main responsibility was to take part of one major piece of our infrastructure safe. the election infrastructure it was our their job to keep our elections safe from with militias interference. but when president trump started spreading lies and conspiracy theories about made-up fraud and interference in the election, since ahead to decide what to do. they are in charge of protecting the election from malicious interference. when that malicious interference did not happen, but there were lies being spread about the fact that it did in order to undermine confidence in the election, they were part of the federal

government, but they have to switch gears to start defending our elections from the sitting president. defending the integrity of our elections from the attack on the integrity of those elections being waged by the man in the oval office. and so cisa as a government agency started refuting in realtime, trump's lies about the elections, so people would not lose faith in the security of the results. under chris krebs leadership, they issued this statement about a week after the election after biden was declared the rightful winner. said quote, the november 3rd election was the most secure in american history. there was no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes or was in anyway compromised. for issuing that statement and others like it's, for batting down trump's lies about the security of the elections, chris krebs was fired by president trump last november. he was one of the first career casualties of donald trump's ongoing promotion of the big lie about the last election. that's why chris krebs is our

news discerning venn diagram, right now. right? his expertise at cisa including critical infrastructure cybersecurity, and the reason he was fired for the trump administration, standing up against the president proponent -- pro pounding this big law a potential action. puts chris krebs in a unique position about understanding about what's going on on this consequential infrastructure but also what's going on in our politics right now. chris krebs fired to refused to perpetuate only from's lies about the election, it seems like a chronicle of the death of a career for the whole. it seems more relevant now than the republican parties in the middle of dairy itself apart, over its inability to cope with the truth of what really the 2020 election. for all those reasons and more, chris krebs is here live next for the interview you are going to want to see this interview,

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all the farcical claims that, alleging interference in the 2020 election, but the proof is in the ballots. the re-counts are consistent with the initial count. and to me, that is further evidence, and that's confirmation that systems used in the 2020 election performed as expected and the american people should have 100% confidence in their vote. >> statements of fact like that from christopher krebs got him fired from the trump administration. christopher krebs led the agency, the federal agency, in securing the nation's federal infrastructure, like say, or federal elections or say, a major fuel pipeline. that experience puts him at a fascinating intersection of the news that we are contending with as a country right now. somebody quite well positioned to understand, a lot of what is

going on in the world much better than any of the rest of us do. joining us now for the interview is chris krebs, former director of cybersecurity infrastructure agency. mr. krebs, it's a rea poster e you, tonight thank you so much for making time. >> thanks for having me on, rachel, great to be here. >> do you feel like you are in a bit of an episode of this is my life? in terms of this different news stories that are unfolding both in areas that you have quite unique expertise? >> yeah. my twitter mentions are getting pretty blown up these days between elections in arizona and what is going on with the pipeline and now just this evening in an executive order the administration. it's a pretty surreal experience when you flip on the tv and you're like, hey, i know something about, that i think. >> well, let me ask you about that executive order this is a lengthy executive order at, pronounce about 18 pages from the biden administration, executive order on improving the nation's cybersecurity, you

are both an expert and a long time practitioner in the field. you feel like the biden ministration is on the right track, here? >> absolutely. i think the team led by deputy national security adviser into work or, they pull together a really ambitious plan. if they lock it in if they nail it it is going to make a dramatic difference in the security of the u.s. government system, but the most interesting aspect of the executive order is if it is done properly is that there is such a thing as leverage on the defensive side where the software. the very software that the u.s. government buys, whether it is from your desks top, laptop, whatever it is, it is a same software that we buy at home, it is the same stuff that companies by. by using the procurement power, the power of the purse, the federal government is going to see dramatic improvement in the

software that we all use. it is kind of a flex, and i'm really excited to see the team roll it out in the next 18 months or so. >> i think a lot of people who are following the news about the colonial pipeline hack are disturbed that something that importing could be so vulnerable to that type of ransomware attack. it is unnerving also that the group that the fbi is attributing the attack to, literally put out a press release announcing their existence, describing the crime they were going to commit and laying out their code of conduct for the types of targets that they had in mind. it just feels like a very lawless place and we feel like a very soft target for them. >> first off that statement indicates to me, at least, they are feeling a little bit of heat, whether that comes from back home, they appear to be based out of russia or they

didn't think that they would catch the attention of the federal u.s. government here. anyway you cut it, ransomware is a massive problem, globally right now but particularly in the united states. i tend to think that it is the number one cybersecurity threat. it is a national security threat. it is the thing that most of your viewers have experienced more so than iranian or chinese or russian hack, these are criminals that hit us in our communities, they lock up our schools, our hospitals, our government agencies and we need to put an end to it, there are a number of things that the administration can do. but it is going to take a collective defense effort, it's going to take industry government and international partnerships. we need to hold russia, in particular, accountable for allowing this to continue as long as it has. >> chris krebs, i have a bunch of other stuff to ask you, would you mind sticking around for a second, i will take a quick break. i have just begun asking you

questions. >> as long as we can talk about fishing at some point, yes. >> indeed. indeed. chris krebs is our guest, former director of cisa, we'll be right back. be right back. battling sensitive skin, we switched to tide hygienic clean free. it's gentle on her skin, and out cleans our old free detergent. tide hygienic clean free. hypoallergenic and safe for sensitive skin. incomparable design makes it beautiful. state of the art technology, makes it brilliant. the visionary lexus nx. lease the 2021 nx 300 for $349 a month for 36 months. experience amazing, at your lexus dealer. like you, my hands are everything to me.

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main cybersecurity agency in the federal government during the trump administration. he was fired from the job after the election for having the temerity to contradict president trump's lies about supposed fraud in that election. he joins us now as we continue the interview. mr. krebs i just have to ask, given that experience, if you're surprised this is still such a live issue? did you know that this would continue to grow and metastasize, start eating at the republican party at least the way it is now or did you think that this was something that we were going to have to get through but that then it would be over? >> i don't think i anticipated or expected to get to the

degree that it did today with representative cheney losing her leadership spot. that is really the only casualty of january six and the big lie. but we did anticipate going back several years, the calling of the rigged election. the seeds for this world lead prior to the 2016 election and then it started to bubble up about this time last year as well when the president, the former president, was talking about mail-in ballots and how that would lead to a rigged election. while we were focusing on the actual technical security of the voting machines, and the resilience of the system including supporting the rollout of more paper ballots across the country. we were also gravely concerned about the rise of disinformation, not just from foreign actors but as it turned out domestic actors, and disinformation is just one of the realities unfortunately of

life right now, we're taking a hard look at that over at the aspen institute. this is just the natural institution of the big lie and it appears to be taking the pretty deep root especially in the house of representatives. organ up to come to grips with this one way or the other. this democracy that we all enjoy and love is at serious risk. >> do you feel like you know with the cure is for it? i felt like when you were leading that agency putting out public statements, it felt like you were pretty focused and had a pretty clear idea about what kinds of messages, what kinds of facts, what kinds of arguments you could make about the sanctity of the election that you felt would resonate with people. did that give you any insights on how to break this fever in the republican party? >> so, here's the challenge, rachel. you are living in a different

world, a different reality than i think some of the supporters and followers of the former president -- you at the fac of the asymmetric nature of his platform at the time. we adult cisa may have been putting out factual information for the american voters to study and digest but ultimately we are talking about, i had 10,000 followers on twitter, the agency had about 150, 000, that stacked up against someone with 89 million. there was just an asymmetric threats there, frankly, that we couldn't overcome. ultimately comes down to what really developed was two different realities. the one we lived in that is based on truth and trust and the other that is based on whatever the former president says. how did we get past this? something that is never going to happen unfortunately i think it all begins with the former president admitting that it was an election that he lost, he

lost fair and square and joe biden is in fact a duly elected president of the united states of america. >> chris krebs, former director of staff cisa, i have a lot more to talk about with you, it is nice to have you here tonight. >> there you go. thank you so much. >> we'll be right back, stay with us. with us. ♪♪ ♪♪ ow! [ heavy breathing ] allergies with nasal congestion overwhelming you? ♪♪ breathe more freely with powerful claritin-d. claritin-d improves nasal airflow two times more than the leading allergy spray at hour one. [ deep inhale ] claritin-d. get more airflow. derriere discomfort. we try to soothe it with this. cool it with this.

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tonight, i've got to tell you, i'm going to scoot right now to make way for my colleagues, lawrence o'donnell. because it is time for his exclusive interview with president joe biden. that starts right now. >> help is on the way, it means heaven and earth to get more people vaccinated or 100 million shots in our first hundred days in office. >> i can say that we're going to beat that goal. >> it is a race between the vaccine and the virus. >> 200 million shots, the goal on that in the world, this is an american achievement. the exponential growth and vaccinations, it actually seems to be stopping. >> to millions of americans, they just need a bit of encouragement to get the shot. >> i don't know if i'm going to get it. >> i feel like i'm pretty healthy. >> you hear so many stories and side effects, i don't