huge, massive, cavernous airports without a lot of people in there. you've got to put your mask on. well, okay. the cdc said -- but okay. >> that's all right. people are being careful. >> and in another state, i went to -- you go into one store. you have to have your mask on. the next store, you don't have top so there needs to be some clarification here. and the only thing i've asked all along, i'm a plain simple country lawyer. i just ask the trump administration to follow the science, i'm asking the biden administration to follow the science. >> well, they are. >> they are. now i'm asking the state governors, follow the science, and also people that run their businesses, follow the sciences. i'm not asking for mosh pits inside of restaurants or retail stores, but if the cdc is saying return to normal and the cdc is saying, if you've been vaccinated, don't wear a mask, you don't have to wear a mask,

then that should mean, don't wear a mask. you know, there was a lot of virtue signaling from the right when they were knocking down masks and doing asinine things while the cdc was saying not to. now there's some virtue signaling, obviously, it's on in an abundance of caution in some cases, but in other cases, it just doesn't make sense. you see people walking around wearing masks outside, the size of like massachusetts. and you're lying, war is over. if you want it. >> i don't think it's the end of the world. i'm still going to wear a mask on planes and crowded areas. >> well, you have to -- by the way, you have to -- i said last week, i was going to continue to wear a mask on a plane and there were some luddites going crazy saying, oh, my god, he's wearing a mask. that's a cdc requirement. there are still cdc requirements. i just -- and scott gottlieb said this yesterday. if we want to encourage people to get the vaccine, and we want

to get people getting the vaccine, why, you ask? for the same reason we have our children get vaccines before they go to school. for the same reason, even though the likelihood of our children getting polio and diphtheria and measles is very low, we still get that, because we want to keep herd immunity. we want to drive those diseases from the face of the earth. it's the same thing here. but if we want to encourage americans to get the vaccine, as dr. scott gottlieb said, then you've got to lighten up when it comes to masks if the science is there and the science is there. the science is there, especially for outside. and, yes, we are learning things as we move along. because people say, well, why didn't they say this back in like december. well, they didn't say it in december, einstein, because

they're still learning. they're still figuring this out. what do you want to get a vaccine and wear a mask if you -- well, you know, you can still pass it along to other people. you're not going to get the effects of it yourself, though. you're going to be asymptomatic. so, again, the goal here is the same goal that doctors and scientists and epidemiologists have had for decades. drive the number of people with vaccines up, get it to a herd immunity, whether it's kids, whether it's teenagers, whether it's adults, even if you're not looking at that person and what their reaction may be to the coronavirus, you're looking at them maybe getting it and passively passing it on to somebody who actually may have some underlying problems. get the numbers up. and you get the numbers up, you get herd immunity, and this is

behind us for good. and you don't have to worry about your loved one who is may not have gotten the vaccines for whatever reason. but, again, as scott gottlieb said, for us to get there, we have to have a consistency when it comes to mask mandates, and people need to start listening to the cdc. if you're running a business, if you're running a state, if you're running a town. come on. lighten up and encourage people to go get the vaccine. >> but jonathan lemire, the word from the white house has been, very clear in terms of sort of loosening the mask mandate to understand the science, how are they employing it within the white house and what are you hearing? >> certainly, the white house itself was actually caught offguard by the cdc, the timing of the cdc's announcement last week on masks, that only a few senior officials were given a heads up wednesday night, ahead of thursday afternoon's public announcement. the president himself wasn't briefed until thursday morning. and certainly, that day, as word spread through the building, staffers took off their masks,

as they worked, whether inside their small offices, reporters, who had been fully vaccinated, who were in the building that day and myself included, we took our masks off as well, if you had completed the two-shot cycle and those two weeks after the second shot. not everyone has yet. and they believe that it is important to send the public image. we heard from the president that afternoon in the rose garden. he was kpul accountant. it was probably the happiest he has been, aides say, since he has come into office. really saying that moment signified the nation turning a corner on the pandemic. to be clear, there's a long way to go still. they know there are pockets of the population that have been hesitant to get the vaccine. they need to convince them to do so. they know there are pockets of population that for one reason or another have had a hard time getting it. they need to improve their outreach to make that happen, even as we see demand fall in states across the nation and the pressure rise on the u.s. to export vaccines to other countries, who are having that much more difficult of a time.

they are, indeed, going to continue to follow the cdc. criticize, perhaps, the cdc for moving too slowly on this in the past. there's no doubt, the white house has been sending signals about this, too, that they want clear message about who should be wearing a mask went. and of course, this all relies somewhat, at least, on people and the honor system, being candid about whether or not they've had the vaccine. that's why we're seeing some places in these early days err are on the side of the caution and require people still to wear them. >> we'll be talking a lot more at this. but we turn now to israel's overnight launch of another barrage of air strikes on gaza. israel says it destroyed nine miles of palestinian militant tunnels and the homes of nine alleged hamas commanders this morning. gaza resh residents were awaken today by described as the heaviest attack since the conflict broke out a week ago. meanwhile, israeli residents are taking shelter, as palestinian rockets rained down on the

country's southern cities. these latest attacks come after the deadliest day of violence yesterday. rescue crews in gaza were still combing through rubble last night, looking for survivors of a morning bombing, where three buildings were hit over the course of five minutes. this while israel's emergency service system reported direct hits in two major cities, including one to a synagogue. israel says hamas has fired nearly 3,000 missiles in their direction since last monday. in a televised address yesterday, israel prime minister benjamin netanyahu insisted the attacks would continue at, quote, full force. the gaza health ministry says at least 197 people have been killed since the violence began, including 58 children. israel has reported ten deaths with two being children. >> david ignatius, you wrote

about this movingly a few days ago. this is a nightmare. there's a cycle of violence that seems to continue every four, five, six years. and in this case, there are dark political overtones to this tragedy. and i am surprised that in the united states, which the united states coverage usually bends pro-israel. i think we can all say that. generally, it has, through the years. there seems to be an agreement among most analysts and foreign policy leaders that this is a political crisis in part, because the only two winners out of this are benjamin netanyahu and hamas. and both of them, their credibility was strained on both side. so as this tragedy continues and people continue to die

disproportionately on the palestinian side, but on both sides, there were tragedies on both sides, the only people winning from this politically are netanyahu and hamas. >> i think that's the hardest part about this, joe, is that civilians, as in every war i've ever covered, are the ones who pay the worst price. and that's happening on both sides with palestinian civilians in gaza, the numbers of dead and wounded are just terrible to read. and israel civilians. the attacks on tel aviv, the rocket attacks really upset the israelis. they felt that was crossing a red line. that's their major population center. i talked, joe to administration officials overnight, asked, what are they doing about this terrible tragedy. and the answer is much like you'd expect. they're working behind the scenes for a cease-fire. they know that as long as prime

minister netanyahu is determined to continue and try to get as much gain on the ground as he can, this is not likely to end. there are a lot of people in key positions who were around for the last gaza war in 2014. that lasted 51 days. we're one week into this one. so there's a recognition this may take a while. there's a lot of talk in the administration about beginning to think about a post-conflict humanitarian reconstruction. i almost want to say, a reset for gaza. gaza is one of the saddest places i have ever visited. it's just so many people packed together, so much suffering, people just trapped, extremists seem to be the only political leaders that have any staying power in gaza. so there's this hope that somehow, over time, you'd begin to get more responsible authorities in gaza, get money

to new groups. that was the hope back in 2014. let's empower egypt. let's empower the palestinian authority. let's bring the palestinian moderates into gaza to challenge hamas. and you know what, it didn't work, as all. but thinking those same ideas again, and there's a recognition, joe, that our ability to influence the situation now is very limited. >> well, david, that's striking considering how much money and aid we give to israel. i'm surprised that our -- and i support that aid. so i'm not talking -- i have been pro-israeli for my entire life. but we give them aid. and you say that -- and netanyahu is saying, this is going to continue for some time. it's a no-win proposition if you support israel and you support israel's standing, not only in the middle east and across the

globe, it's a no-win proposition more them to claim that they're going after a hamas leader and kill eight or nine children. saying they're going after a hamas leader or two or some offices and knock down the site where the associated press and al jazeera and other news agencies are reporting out of. that is a no-win proposition for the people of israel. that is a no-win proposition for israel diplomatically across europe and the globe. the only person that helps is benjamin netanyahu. do we have no ability as a country to reach in and stop this senseless killing? because there is no end game here. everybody knows there is no end game here. just more dead palestinians and more dead israeli citizens, while as you've said before, israelis and arabs fighting inside of israeli now create a new dangerous dynamic. >> joe, i just would make two

point. i think it's entirely true that the united states and the world shouldn't feel powerless to affect these terrible events where there's so much human suffering. but the israeli government feels, when the rockets began to land on israeli cities, that an absolute harsh, punitive response was necessary. and it was necessary to degrade the infrastructure, the tunnels, the command and control, that made that possible. so this is a scenario that we've seen over and over. i do think israelis make mistakes sometimes in their attempts to protect their security. i watched one of the biggest, i think, in modern history. the israeli invasion of lebanon in 1982. i was a correspondent in beirut, watching the israeli army roll in. and that created a nightmare. it essentially created hezbollah

as a political organization, created a security problem that continues to this day. so decisions that people make under pressure aren't always right. the problem, as somebody who's looked as the middle east for so long is that moderate opinion on which you could build a settlement that could last is getting shattered on all sides. the palestinian authority under mahmoud abbas is corrupt, it's weak. it was so weak, it couldn't hold elections that were scheduled for this year, because there were no moderates who would win. they would have simply enfranchised the most extreme hamas people in many areas. so somehow, you've got to have something there to build on. and that's the work of years and decades. unfortunately, during the trump years, the u.s. checked out of that process. we gave up what would have been an attempt to be the evenhanded broker, the country that could talk to all sides. we gave that up.

and i think biden, tony blinken at state are trying to rebuild that. but it's going to take a while. >> and for people that are just tuning in and haven't been following this closely, this began with evictions in east jerusalem. and then there were protests at one of the most sacred sites for muslims. and there was a showdown there. and then hamas -- and as david said, if you look at the palestinian authority, it's corrupt. you've got a leader that was elected to a four-year term now in his like 17th year. and reading from "the new york times" this morning, hamas has fired nearly 3,000 rockets towards israeli cities and towns, a clear war crime. "the times" goes on and says in israel has subjected gaza to such intense bombardment, killing families and flattening buildings, it probably constitutes a disproportionate use of form, also a war crime.

killed at least 197 palestinians, including 92 women and children, between last monday and sunday evening, according to palestinian authorities. hamas missiles have rained over israeli towns and cities, sowing fear and killing at least ten people, including two children. and it goes on and on. neither side -- there is not a good faith partner for the united states to talk to on either side. we still have to figure out how to enforce our will. >> so in his latest op-ed for "the new york times," entitled "for trump, hamas, and beebee, it is always january 6th". thomas friedman writes in part, "no, hamas and bibi don't taublg. they don't need to. they each understand what the other needs to stay in power and consciously or unconsciously behave in ways to ensure that they deliver it. the latest rerun of their long-running nasty show is

happening now because both were staring at an amazing breakthrough shaping up between israeli jews and israel arab muslims -- and like the pro-trump mob on january 6th -- they want to destroy the possibility of political change before it could destroy them politically. bibi and hamas, they need each other. they understand each other. rinse and repeat. rinse and repeat. rinse and repeat. for a brief shining moment, it looked as though a different israeli coalition might be coming together to break that cycle. it certainly would not have made peace overnight, but it might at least have begun a different dialogue, a real dialogue, among all sides. instead, we got a january 6 moment, one that for now has succeeded in stopping the chance of political transformation." >> and katty kay, there's always

an overreaction. of course, the united states wouldn't ask any country that had 3,000 rockets that rained down on it not to move. the question would be, though, how do you stop from getting to that point? and after it begins, how does it end? obviously, the iron dome is able to deflect most of those missiles. but you look at both sides when it comes to netanyahu and hamas. tom friedman is right. both of them were politically at risk, just a week ago, before this started, when it looked like arab israelis and some former parties that had been in coalition with netanyahu were going to figure out a way to come together and bring this country together. instead of moving on and on from one failed election to another failed election. and then, this happened. and of course, it's the radicals who win.

>> yeah. you know, it's not an extreme thing to say that this was potentially bibi netanyahu's get out of jail free card, given that he was also facing corruption charges of his own and the possibility of a trial if he was no longer head of the israeli government. so you had this moment where it looked like you had for the first time the possibility of of israeli jews and arab israelis coming together in one kind of government. and for bibi netanyahu, that would have been not just the end of his prime ministership, but the end of his philosophy of government in the region. and it seemed that it was something not countenanceable. and you're right, when you get into a cycle like this, it's incredibly hard to get out of it. the netanyahu government has made it very clear, they'll carry on pounding gaza. what happens in gaza. gaza is a tiny strip of land packed to the gills with people, there's no employment, you can't get in, you can't get out.

the only group of in gaza that provides anything like services to people, water, health care, education, anything that functions, is hamas. well, the more people are killed in gaza, the more people, they're not going to say, oh, this is hamas' fault, which it may well be, because hamas puts its military leaders in amongst civilians, they're not going to say that, they're going to say, we need hamas even more, because we need those services even more because our country has just been destroyed and we're dealing with the rubble of building. so it's really hard to see how this doesn't end in more extremism, more bloodshed in the region. and you look back at the last four years of the trump administration, and this wound was left to fester. there was a lot of focus on the abram accords. i think jared kushner is at the moment setting up an institute of the abram accords in florida, touting the success of their deals with morocco and the ae. those countries now looking at

what's happening in israel in dismay because this makes their accord with israel look pretty shaky at the moment. they've had to put out statements distancing themselves from israel because of the overwhelming force being used and the number of people in gaza being killed. it's really exacerbated the situation not just between people in gaza and israel, but potentially between israel and israel's new allies in the region, as well. >> which was historic, when you could get israel and sunni arab states together in peace accords, that's a positive thing. it's something that we should all want for that region. but the one thing we don't have right now is a good faith intermediary between us and the palestinian leadership. somebody that can help us go in there and get a palestinian leader and netanyahu together and really not ask nicely. say, this has got to end. you've got to stop killing

civilians. this has got to stop. let's start with a cease-fire. we don't have to have the camp david accords, but i think everybody agrees, we need a cease-fire, because nothing good is going to happen. and katty, this is something i want to talk to you about. we in america, this country will always be pro-israeli. the israelis will always be our ally, certainly for the foreseeable future. but we take that for granted. that's not the case in france, that's not the case across the world. when images like this go across the world, all that does is further isolate israel and the united states. it further puts us on an island as these images continue week after week after week, like they did in 2014. this is not in israel's best interests, it's not in the united states' best interest.

and it sure as hell is not in the best interest of the palestinian people. can you explain -- and people can say, i don't give a damn what they think about us in europe. you know what? we have to, for diplomatic reasons. can you explain the impact of this on israel's reputation across the world and ours by extension? >> remember, we are in the moment trying to renegotiate a major nuclear deal with iran. and when i say "we," europeans and the americans. there are areas of the world where europeans and americans need to work together in a very urgent way, joe. so we need to be on the same page. you're also right, of course, european public opinion tends to be more pro-palestinian than american public opinion. it's been interesting to see, for the first time, pretty much since i have lived here, splits emerging within the democratic party from the more progressive, younger wing of the democratic party, talking more about the palestinians and the need to

protect palestinian rights. you don't hear that very much in american politics. a focus on palestinians themselves and what palestinians are going through. and i think you're hearing that, because of the amount of force that the israelis are using and the number of children in particular who have been killed in gaza. but it doesn't help israel in terms of its new arab relationships. it makes it very hard for those new governments to say -- they don't have much love lost for the palestinian cause. they would rather wash their hands of it. but when they're watching on their televisions children and families being bombed nightly and killed in gaza, it's hard for them to stand on the sidelines and not condemn israel. it makes it very difficult for them. europeans are going to be wary of israel at the moment, and it increases frictions as well between europeans, potentially, and americans. it -- tony blinken will weigh in this week.

>> and that pressure is growing. the secretary of state made calls yesterday from the plane to try to de-escalate this. but so far the u.s. has not sent a high-ranking envoy to the region to rye to broker a reduction in tensions and violence there. they do know, as david said earlier, their hands are somewhat tied. there's a limit to what their access is. but the calls are mounting, yes, from within the democratic party, for sure. but also overseas, for president biden to do more here. he was asked just a couple of days ago if he thought israel's response was proportional and appropriate. and he said, certainly israel has a right to defend themselves, but there's growing concern what we're seeing there, those images are so horrific, the president needs to step in and try to be louder here. to try to lean more on israel. to try to reign some of this in. and this is becoming an all-consuming crisis for this white house. their first overseas matter they

may have to jump into. and they're concerned about the ramifications for the region, particularly with the iran deal being negotiated, re-negotiated in vienna as we speak. and i want to salute our praise our colleagues in the associated press who were in their offices in gaza and only given a minute before their building was leveled by an air strike. and they are still there working on the ground in borrowed office space. hopefully -- good work, guys, and please stay safe. >> incredibly traumatic, for sure. >> and let's note here -- let's note here that none of us are naive. we understand that hamas places themselves in those locations to attract those bombs. we understand that they hide among children and use children and women and families as human

shields. we understand that. we understand that, all right. but that doesn't mean that you blow through those shields and do exactly what hamas wants you to do and play into hamas' hands. do you think they care if a hamas leader is killed if there are images of six, seven children being killed at the same time. they don't care! that's what they want israel to do. and that's what netanyahu is doing. he's damaging israel's reputation not only in israel and not only in the region and not only across europe but in the united states as well. and i know that most of the world has been hostile towards israel since 1948. that's why these tragedies are so damaging to israel's own future, when there is no end

game. and we hear netanyahu say, he's going to continue the bombing. he's going to continue the warfare. and we're going to continue to see palestinian children and women dragged out of rubble. and we're going to continue to see hamas missiles flying towards jerusalem, flying towards israel. enough. the united states has a leverage. joe biden has the leverage. tony blinken has the leverage. they need to use it. and for the best interests, not just of the palestinian people, but for the israeli people and for the state of israel, for the state of israel, they need to broker a cease-fire now. >> we're going to certainly return to this, but we want to turn now to national political reporter for axios, jonathan swann, who has incredible new reporting for axios on what was happening behind the scenes at one of the tensest moments

between a president and the military in modern history. the reporting is for the final episode of his off the rails series entitled "trump's war with his generals." and jonathan, i'm stunned hat what i'm reading here. in terms of president trump's then attempt to address the afghanistan situation and how he had a withdrawal plan, that's for sure. and i'll tell you about that in just a moment, but no peace plan, which is what president biden has to deal with now. but it's this piece of paper where they had some directions scrawled out that included, get us out of afghanistan, get us out of iraq and syria, complete withdrawal from germany, get us out of africa. that was the president communicating with one of his top generals through an assistant. >> yes. so this is november the 9th. just to put it in context.

it's six days after donald trump has lost the election. and his former body man, john mcentee, 31-year-old former college football quarterback, was brought back into government to run the office of presidential personnel. he calls up a retired army colonel, douglas mcgreger, highly controversial figure, who's basically been excommunicated from the military establishment, calls him into his office in the executive office building, sits him down, john mcentee has just come from the oval office, and presents him with this piece of paper and says, this is what the president wants you to do. and it's the list that you just read out. and, you know, this is not just -- we've talked about afghanistan and it's a big deal and he wanted him to get out before the end of the presidency, which to david ignatius's credit, he was the first to report that order, which was then -- trump was talked out of that order. but trump wanted to go much broader. he was asking through mcentee to

complete a withdrawal out of germany, which would have completely reshaped america's role in the world, our alliances, our relationship with nato, and this is not some sort of incremental decision. he'd already ordered a drawdown from germany. this would have been one of the most radical foreign policy decision we've seen in modern history. and douglas mcgregor is not exactly some person who's cautious about withdrawing from the world. he's someone who has gone on fox news and, you know, attacked congressional leadership and the pentagon leadership as idiots and ridiculed their policies and basically gone for a completely maximalist, get-out-of-everywhere in the middle east policy. even david mcgregor was like, i don't know if we can do this before the end of the presidency. so that gives you a sense of where things were at. >> we have david ignatius with us, who you just mentioned. david has a question. >> john, great reporting.

let me ask you the question that really haunted me when i was looking at some of these same events. and that is, what was the trump inner circle's plan, if they could have somehow derailed biden's election victory and gone on to january 20th. did you look into what role these military moves might have played in their larger scheme? or were these just specific ad hoc moves in your judgment? >> i never got the sense that -- i've done dozens and dozens of hours of reporting on these events and talked to pretty much everyone who has had proximity to them. i don't get a sense that there was a larger plan. it was trump completely obsessed with, you know, reaching and grabbing for whatever he could to try to derail this transition. to try to overturn the results

of the democratic election and obstruct joe biden getting into power. and there was this sort of parallel track where he was trying to, you know, get all of this stuff done that he'd been talking about for four years and never actually gotten done, but would have potentially put biden in an extremely dangerous position. and this is what general milley and others, you know, went to the oval and said to the president is, if you try to withdraw at this precipitous rate, coble could fall, all of these events could happen in afghanistan. and they managed to talk trump out of it. but the argument -- i actually reached out to him for comment for this story and he ended up talking to me on the phone. and he was obsessed with the equipment. the argument that seemed to resonate with donald trump was, let's not leave all of this expensive equipment behind. so that seemed to be the thing that, you know, they always use arguments that appeal to his transactional nature. and this seemed to be the one that just barely kept america

engaged in afghanistan so that biden could actually approach this in a deliberative fashion. >> you know, you look at donald trump's political career and you see that he really, he was transactional in most of his beliefs. he moved, you know, he changed radically on abortion. he changed radically on guns. he changed radically on all of these other issues. but katty kay, the one issue that donald trump has been consistent with over the decade is his bedrock belief that americans are suckers. that we fight everybody else's war, that we spent all of our money on everybody else. that we're suckers in trade deals. we're suckers by going into iraq. that we're suckers for keeping -- for protecting other countries. and so, it's interesting, this fascinating reporting is actually the one thing, i think, where there is a consistent throughline from seeing donald trump on the "today" show in 1988, calling us suckers for

letting japan basically buy all of the property that he wanted to buy. that through line through 2020, where he just didn't think that we should give anything to anybody or fight any wars for anybody but ourselves. >> i mean, he never seemed to believe that there was any benefit to the u.s. from alliances or relationships that have been built up over decades. that america was only losing out. it was never going to win anything from any of those alliances. but jonathan, flip it a little bit. trump thought america was suckers for getting into things. take the afghanistan example, for example. did you get any reporting on whether the afghans thought that trump was being suckered. did they think that trump or the generals were, in the end, in the driving seat? >> yeah, that's a really interesting wrinkle in the story. so there were classified nsa

intercepts that were viewed by several top administration officials. and in one of these conversations, there were afghan officials talking to each other, and they were under the strong impression that general milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and the other leaders of the uniformed military were basically going to ignore donald trump, slow roll him, and not withdraw troops on the precipitous timeline that the president was publicly calling for. so it was certainly amongst senior afghans the impression that general milley was holding the line against donald trump in those final days. >> all right. national political reporter for axios, jonathan swann. thank you very much for coming on this morning. and still ahead on "morning joe," after being removed from gop leadership, congresswoman liz cheney is issuing a new warning about the future of the republican party. saying it is headed in a

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at&t is reportedly in advanced talks to merge its warner media company with discovery. the deal, that could be announced as soon as today, will combine discovery with all of warner media, which will become a new publicly traded company, co-owned by at&t and discovery shareholders. warner media owns cable channels such as hbo, cnn, tnt, as well as tbs, as well as the warner brothers television and films studio. discovery has a powerful that includes its namesake network and hgtv. "the wall street journal" reports that discovery chief executive, david zaslav, is expected to head the new company. and retailers and restaurants are now weigh how to implement the cdc's new guidance lifting masks for the mask mandate for those who are fully vaccinated. walmart and sam's club, costco, trader joe's and publix are all

asking guests to follow the honor system and only unmask if they've been fully vaccinated. disney parks, hershey park, and universal parks have largely lifted the mask mandates for outdoors, though indoor mask wearing will still be required and certain parks fall under local guidance. universal studios is a part of msnbc's parent company, nbc universal. so you can see, joe, it's complicated. >> well, yeah. >> it's a little complicated. give it some time. >> they're moving forward. i'll give it a couple of days. they're moving forward in the right direction, though. >> a couple days? >> and they have the honor system and we're at a stage now where, yeah, they should follow cdc guidelines. again -- >> i know, but it takes a couple of days for it to kind of -- it has to play out. let's read now from one of -- >> by the way, it's been a couple of days since the cdc said, return to the life you had before covid, if you've been

vaccinated. that makes sense. >> i don't think it's that simple. >> so they're all going to say that at some point and people will say, oh, it does make a big difference if you get vaccinated in your day-to-day life. >> well, let's read now from one of ed luce's recent pieces from the "financial times," entitled, "biden struggles with western pandemic disunity." quote, we should be seeing peak transatlantic cooperation battling a common global threat that would seem like the ideal moment. instead, there is growing friction. unlikely europe, which has exported more than 100 million vaccine doses, the u.s. is still hoarding supplies. but such disparity looks trivial against mounting complaints of global vaccine apartheid. india, which desperately needs whatever supply anyone can deliver has yet to receive part of the 60 million astrazeneca doses held by the biden

administration. though biden denies there is any u.s. embargo, in practice, there is. should america's roughly 50 million or so vaccine hesitance be a bigger priority than the 5 billion adults around the world who have no choice. in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, george w. bush said america must fight terrorists overseas so it would not have to face them at home. that logic is well suited to today's battle against covid-19. unlike terrorists, the virus does not discriminate between home and abroad. neither should the west. and ed joins us now, along with a member of the "new york times" editorial board, mara gay. it's good to have you both this morning. >> so ed, what is the logic of the biden administration on this front? >> well, i think the priority has been to vaccinate americans first. by the way, i should just

quickly thank mika for reminding me that today is the last day to file taxes. because as a journalist, i haven't yet filed my taxes. thank you for that reminder. >> got to get it done. >> you do. i do. the priority, i think, has been to get america vaccinated and then step up assistance to the world. but the pandemic -- the virus is not respecting that kind of sequencing. and we're seeing these new variants develop in places like india and also leave places like india. in britain right now, the indian double mutant, scareiant, as some people call it, is already threatening plans to lift restrictions britain's cdc has just arrived at last week. and it looks like it's probably going to remain behind the cdc, even though britain is actually ahead in terms of how many

people it's vaccinated. so there is a warning there for biden that all the great things that are happening, namely, the rapid vaccine rollout, the economic recovery that is based on that, and the good poll numbers that biden is experiencing, all of this could very quickly be jeopardized by the arrival of more tricky variants in american circulation, if you like. and so the priority of defeating the global -- of having a global vaccine rollout isn't just some foreign policy or global humanitarian instinct. it's an essential part of his domestic plans. he's got to merge the two. and some of that is about building a common position here with the europeans, which at the moment is very much lacking. they're not seeing eye-to-eye, for example, on biden's i think,

very necessary proposition of lifting the patents, of waving patents on these vaccines. >> david ignatius has a question. david? >> ed. this image of american hoarding and selfishness is really unattractive. but i'm reminded of what you always hear on airlines, when we fly on them, which is, be sure to apply your own oxygen mask before attempting to assist others. and i'm reminded of that because unless the united states vaccinates its own population, our ability to be active as a country, to buy the world's goods, to be outward leaning, to make a difference in the world will be limited, isn't it? >> that's very true. but i think america has the resources to do all of the

above. it can be doing both at the same time. remember, countries like in india and africa and latin american, they don't have the dollar. they can't afford to simply lock down the economy and pay their people to stay at home. so their only option is to vaccinate people -- is to kill this virus. and it's just as much in our interests, too. because they are essentially pet petry dishes for the development of new variants that will assuredly not respect u.s. immigration and customs. it will come straight into this country. and test the efficacy of our vaccines. so when you think of what the cdc did last thursday, this rather surprising move of saying -- of switching to an honor system, i would be a little bit worried about that in the context of this fall, of the cdc then turning around and saying, look, you've got to put

them back on again. because we've got new variants to deal with. and we don't know whether our vaccines can cope with them. so i think there's a big sequencing and messaging problem here. but the way to deal with it is to vaccinate the world. and america has the resources. >> and mara gay, that's really the -- to david's point, the fine balance for president biden, who is dealing with one issue, and that is our appearance around the world, and certainly hoarding vaccines is not a good look. at the same time, we have such radical vaccine hesitancy which is politically motivated and pushed on facebook through the whole trump population. and that could change very quickly to, he sent our vaccines away. i mean, overnight. and yet, we want this country to continue to work toward herd immunity. we need people to get vaccines. >> that's right. we really need to walk and chew

gum here, i think. but one thing to consider is that even though vaccine hesitancy is very real, clearly, and for several reasons, across several demographic groups, across the united states. there is also a significant population of americans who have not been able to access a vaccine for various reasons. in new york, for example, our reporting is clear that some of the hardest-to-reach groups in the city tend to be older new yorkers, for example, who are black or latino, who live at home, are homebound. folks like that. folks who are undocumented who are working much of the day, who can't access sites at certain times. so we really do need to -- we've kind of done the lower-hanging fruit, so to speak. people who want to get vaccinated. people who have the ability to easily take a day off from work

and go get vaccinated. now we have to do the hard work in the united states of public health messaging to encourage people to get the vaccine. at the same time, we need to be knocking on doors, making it extremely easy for those with busy lives and hardships to get vaccinated. and i think until we've done that work, we won't really know what the true population of people who refuse to get the vaccine is. but at the same time, we do need to be generating more vaccines and sending them wherever the need is, because those variants will bounce right back at us, and i can tell you as a new yorker, i imagine they will be here first. so, it's just something to consider. i mean, everybody is talking about this fun summer ahead. and that's wonderful, but this is not over. >> correct. ed luce, thank you so much for being on with us this morning. and get your taxes done. coming up, when did the u.s. government and the pentagon start taking the possibility of

ufos seriously? that reporting is next. "morning joe" is coming right back. s next "morning joe" is coming right back ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ comfort in the extreme. ♪♪ the lincoln family of luxury suvs.

imagine a technology that can do 6 to 700 g-forces, that can fly at 13,000 miles an hour, that can evade radar and can fly through air and water and possibly space and oh, by the way, has no obvious signs of propulsions, no wings, no control surfaces, and yet still can defy the natural effects of earth's gravity. that's precisely what we're seeing. >> reporter: a navy air crew struggles to lock on to a fast-moving object off the u.s. atlantic coast in 2015. >> look at it fly! >> recently released images may not convince ufo skeptics, but the pentagon admits, it doesn't know what in the world this is.

or this. or this. >> i'm not a ufo guy -- >> but from what i'm hearing you guys saying, there's something? >> yes. >> oh, there's definitely something -- i don't know who's building it, who's got the technology, who's got the brains, but there's something out there that was better than our airplane. >> that was a report on "60 minutes" last night, who spoke to fighter pilots who reported seeing unidentified flying objects. as new video has surfaced that show what appears to be a ufo flying around a navy ship. the black and white clip taken aboard the "uss omaha" in july of 2019 shows a small round object flying parallel to the ocean, hovering for a moment before it drops into the water out of sight. the footage published by investigative filmmaker jeremy

korball was confirmed by the pentagon as being taken by navy personnel. those images are now being reviewed by a government task force, which is set to brief congress next month on what they call unidentified aerial phenomenon. the most recent incident is part of a growing list of encounters between the u.s. military and what appears to be some sort of advanced technology. joining us now, staff writer for "the new yorker," gideon lewis crouse, who's latest article is entitle entitled, "how the pentagon started taking ufos seriously, in which he details the evolution from the pentagon ignoring unexplained sightings to now investigating and sharing the information with congress." so we appreciate your coming on. i guess, what's the overall thought here, that this is from somewhere else or from somewhere else around the world?

that these objects may be derived from? >> well, there are a number of thoughts about these. i mean, this video in particular that you're showing, you know, some of the skeptics have persuasively argued that this really was just a balloon being seen in paralax. it's really not clear, these videos on their own don't necessarily tell us all that much about what's going on. of course, people latched on to them because they're visually arresting. and when people ask for more information about these videos, generally, the pentagon has refused comment. the pilot testimony -- >> i'm sorry, we have a delay here. i was just going to say, it is -- they are visually arresting to say the least. i've always been a skeptic, but you look at some of the things -- again, these are military videos that you've seen. and it certainly doesn't seem to be anything in the u.s. arsenal or any other arsenal that can do

what these aircraft can do. so, what is their explanation? do they attempt an explanation? >> not much of an explanation has been officially attempted. there are certainly lots of people who have been involved in these studies who have speculated. of course, the main speculation that it's some classified technology of ours, which many people have said is an unlikely explanation, because why would we possibly be testing new technology without telling our, you know -- in restricted air space without telling our navy pilots about it. other people have speculated that they could be low-rent surveillance technologies, like new kinds of surveillance balloons or surveillance drones that have been seen, you know, that could be exploited by either our adversaries or non-state actors. and then, of course, there's the big speculation that, you know, maybe they represent some sort of other-worldly technology, although there clearly hasn't been any dispositive evidence about that. >> hey, gideon, it's jonathan

lemire. my personal pet theory is this is john heilemann returning to his home planet. but beyond this obviously arresting footage released by the pentagon or obtained -- that the pentagon had, are we seeing similar sightings from other governments? has there been any talk elsewhere in the world, footage like this? and also, of course, everyone on the planet or seeming i everyone on the planet now has a planet, a video. are we seeing a correlating rise in the number of spottings taken by amateurs as swell of objects like these? >> well, there certainly has been footage from around the world. the mexican air force has taken footage that looks a lot like some of these images. the u.s. -- there's a perception this is only happening in the u.s., somehow. that we're the only ones subject to this mass hallucination, but this is a global phenomenon. and we certainly know that our work on the task force, we've

briefed our allies about this. the japanese came forward and said they had met with former secretary of defense mark esper in guam last summer, or the summer before. the question of cell phone footage is a big question. this is one of the things that debunkers like to say. is that you would think these days, everybody has a high-powered camera in their pocket, why aren't we getting better footage? certainly one answer is, it's generally difficult to take things of glowing lights against a starry sky at night. those things often come out blurry. but, a lot of the pentagon people they talked to say, you know, that's not really a concern of ours. that actually, we have, we have possess very stark visual documentation that exceeds what we've released to the public so far. yet then again, who knows? it's very hard to separate the fact from fiction here. >> gideon, mara gay from "the new york times" here. this is so fun. thank you for this. i'm just wondering, do you have

any sense for why the pentagon has decided to go public with this? i mean, it's certainly unusual when they are unable to explain something to see them talking about this openly. are they having fun? are they concerned? have they called china? what's going on here? >> i mean, it's a great question. so, one of the things that turned up as i started reporting about this is that actually for a long time, from basically 1947 to 1970, there wasn't the kind of taboo that we were used to about these things. these were publicly discussed all the time, it was a reputable topic of conversation, it was on the cover of magazines, it was on television. and for that period of time, a number of senior officials, the first director of the cia, for example, came out publicly and said, these are things that we need to be concerned about. but of course, one of the worries during the cold war was that it looked really bad to say, there's stuff buzzing around in our air space that we haven't the faintest idea of what it is. and you know, you had to project

an image of knowledge and control and mastery over your air space. a big part of the taboo had to do with the fact that then, the pentagon didn't ever want to come out and say, yep, there's stuff that we don't understand. and one of the big -- you know, the big inflection point was december of 2017, when "the new york times" published a big expose revealing that between roughly 2007 and 2012, there had been a very small congressional appropriation made to study these things. and it had had sort of an unfunded afterlife for a number of years. but then after "the times" report came out, all of a sudden the perception that the government was once again interested in ufos created a lot of pressure on the hill to, such that the government started taking ufos seriously again for the first time in a very long time. a lot of this does have to do with the cultural inflection point and the public pressure that's been brought to bear on this. >> katty kay is with us and has

a question. katty? >> gideon, i'm a ufo skeptic, to put that out front. and i suppose i think at some point, people will say, look, we've seen a lot about deep fake videos recently. how do they know that this is not deep fake videos? and even if that's not true, that these are not deep fake videos, doesn't have the pentagon have to come out with a little bit more context or analysis at some point? otherwise, conspiracy theories will run wild through this stuff, either through people who believe in ufos or people who don't, finding a reason to think that this is not right. they can't just put the video out there without some kind of analysis or statement or their thoughts on this, can they? >> well, to the question of fakes, you wouldn't even need something as sophisticated as deep fake technology to do stuff like this. one of the videos you showed of the green triangles, there's been a lot of speculation that this is just a lens artifact that creates those green triangles. so i'm not sure you would even

need that kind of explanation. and yes, i agree with you that it seems like for some period of time, the pentagon attitude was, if we just say that these are unidentified and kind of shrug our shoulders, that we've gotten over the stigma of reporting on unidentified stuff in our air space, maybe people will just leave us alone. but of course, it's only sparked an enormous amount of curiosity about this. so it seems like probably, the pentagon cannot continue to indefinitely come out and say, yes, those are our videos. they were shot by our navy personnel, but we're not going to say anything further about that. next month, there is the expectation that this uap task force is going to release a report. in my reporting, it does not seem likely that this is going to reveal that we've been in conversation for 70 years with an array of extra, you know, intergalactic powers. it seems very unlikely that much of interest is going to come out at least in the public portion of this report, although there's

some speculation that in a classified annex, there might be more of that. but at the moment, i agree with you. it seems like an untenable situation for the pentagon to refuse some further context about this. >> "the new yorker's" gideon lewis-krause, thank you so much for being on this morning. fascinating. and mara gay, before you go, we want to ask you about the endorsement "the new york times" editorial board recently made in the new york city mayoral race for democrat katherine garcia, in the face of what the board calls the, quote, most consequential mayoral test in a generation. the board says, it believes garcia, who is the city's former sanitation department commissioner, quote, best understands how to get new york back on its feet and has the temperament and the experience to do so. tell us more about this decision. >> sure. you know, kathryn garcia made it

pretty easy for us. there is a lot of talent in this race, but she has been known as the fixer in city hall for over a decade at this point. she is the one who restored the city's sewage treatment plants after hurricane sandy. she delivered millions, hundreds of millions of meals to new yorkers in need during the pandemic. and she also made wide, sweeping reforms to the sanitation department that actually got -- cut commercial garbage traffic in half in her time in office. she's a trusted leader and we're dealing with serious problems, we've lost 32,000 plus new yorkers to covid. the crisis is still not over. we're going to have out-year budget crises. we've got rising crime. we really want somebody who was tested in that role, who cares about people, and, you know, in our view, there's really nothing more progressive than making

government work for those who need it the most. >> all right, mara, thank you very, very much. we turn back now to israel's overnight launch of another barrage of air strikes on gaza. israel now says nine miles of palestinian militant tunnels and the homes of nine alleged hamas commanders this morning. gaza residents were awakened today by what's described as the heaviest attack since the conflict broke out a week ago. meanwhile, israeli residents are taking shelter as palestinian rockets rained down on the country's southern cities. these latest attacks come after the deadliest day of violence yesterday. rescue crews in gaza were still combing through rubble last night, looking for survivors of a morning bombing, where three buildings were hit over the course of five minutes. this while israel's emergency service system reported direct hits in two major cities, including one to a synagogue.

israel says hamas has fired nearly 3,000 missiles in their direction since last monday. in a televised address yesterday, benjamin netanyahu insisted the attacks would continue at, quote, full force. the gaza health ministry says at least 197 people have been killed since the violence began, including 58 children. israel has reported ten deaths, including two children. joining us, we have professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr., and nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early," kasie hunt. also with us, the president of the council on foreign relations, richard haas. his book, "the world: a brief introduction" is out now in paperback. and member of the foreign relations committee, democratic senator chris murphy of connecticut, his book, "the violence inside us" is now out

in paperback, as well. we thank you all for being with us this hour. >> senator, let's begin with you. thank you so much for being with us. it seems we've been hearing over the past week that there's little to nothing the united states can do to stop this cycle of violence. there seems to be no end-game here, other than hamas continuing to fire rockets towards israeli citizens and towns. and for israel to target hamas leaders that are surrounded by children and women and news outlets. do you believe there's nothing that the united states can do to step in and force a cease-fire on both sides? >> well, i do believe the united states can play a productive role here. the continued escalation of this crisis and the violence connected to it doesn't serve either party's ends. ultimately, as you see more and more civilians being killed on both sides, it continues to fuel this grievance. it doesn't, in my mind, protect israel in the long run, if they

continue to barrage gaza with rockets and hamas is not going to get any closer to the negotiating table by lobbing thousands of rockets into israel. so right now, we need to focus on a cease-fire. and so you're seeing growing calls from congress for the biden administration to play a stronger role in pushing for that cease-fire. last night, you had the majority of the senate democratic caucus sign on to a call for a cease-fire and myself and republican senator todd young issued the first bipartisan call for that cease-fire. listen, the united states is an important security partner for the israelis. we are an important humanitarian partner with the palestinians. we have leverage on both sides. and i would hope that we would be pushing very strongly over the next 24 hours for a cease-fire. >> obviously, the israelis are, they have had 3,000 rockets fired their way. "the new york times" this morning reporting that there is

a belief among many that they're using a disproportionate force among palestinian people. you look at the number of children and women that have been killed in these attacks. obviously, that is a human tragedy of epic scale. and yet, we don't seem -- when these tragedies break out every four, five, six years, we don't seem to have a good faith intermediary that can go and get the palestinians sitting down at the table. we have a corrupt palestinian authority. we have hamas, who continues to want to drive israel into the sea. how do we rectify that situation? >> listen, admittedly, it is very difficult, given that right now, on both sides of the ledger, you don't have leadership that is able to deliver, right? you don't have an israeli government right now. and benjamin netanyahu's coalition has been dependent for

years on pushing the country further and further from a path to a palestinian state. similarly, the palestinians are split. in fact, the reason that hamas decided to launch these unprovoked rockets into israel was to try to gain leverage over its rival, fatah, the other more moderate side of the palestinian infrastructure. so admittedly, it's very difficult, made harder by the fact that the egyptians and jordanians are probably weaker and less able to bring the sides together today. but once again, i think this is a moment where you sort of have to use the leverage that we have, right? we do have leverage with the israelis. we are an important security partner with them. the defensive mechanism, which stops many of these rockets from hitting israel is made possible by u.s. taxpayer funding. the aid that comes into palestinian territories is made possible by u.s. taxpayer funding. so let's use a little bit heavier hand right now to tell both sides that now is the time

to stand down. that neither side is going to be protecting their citizens in the long run, by continuing this escalation. >> do you agree with the observation that tom friedman and so many other foreign policy observer have made that the only people who are winning politically from this are benjamin netanyahu and hamas. >> well, and listen, somehow through this, hamas has, you know, convinced so many palestinians that they are the protectors of the holy sites in and around jerusalem. that's a disaster for palestinians. similarly, benjamin netanyahu for years has been taking steps to make a palestinian state virtually impossible. and that's bad for both israelis and palestinians in the long run. listen, again, there's a limit to how much the united states can do here. as the sort of politics on both sides gets pushed to the extreme, it does make peace

harder. but this is a moment where the united states can engage and we should. >> senator, your book is out in paperback now. is there any hope, as there was after newtown, that people like pat toomey, joe manchin, some republicans and democrats who would come together, at least on a common sense measure like expanding dramatically background checks. making it universal background checks, something that almost 90% of americans support. >> you know, in my book, i make the case that, you know, democrats should admit that the constitution includes a right to private gun ownership. and that might make republicans a little less scared of engaging with us in talks like universal background checks. i talk about the growth of the anti-gun violence movement. and what we have seen the publication of my book is the dissent into chaos of the gun lobby. so the politics on this issue are very different. which is why we are, joe,

engaged in pretty serious talks right now across the aisle on expanding background checks. and i think there's a better than 50/50 shot that we'll be able to bring a bill to the senate floor that will save lives and expand background checks. and that is because the gun violence movement has become stronger. the nra is sort of down on the mat as they go through bankruptcy proceedings. and people really believe that now is the time to get something done. so maybe it's not much greater than 50/50, but it's very different than five years ago, when it was really impossible to get this debate started. >> well, i know, senator, for so many people in your state, for those of us that lived in connecticut during newtown, for so many people across america, what a wonderful step forward that would be if republicans and democrats alike could come together and give americans, what 90% of americans support, and that is universal background checks. thank you so much, senator chris murphy. we greatly appreciate it.

the book is "the violence inside of us" now out in paperback. richard haas, let's go back to the israeli/palestinian conflict. i would love to get your thoughts right now about where we are as this tragedy goes into its second week? >> look, we're in a place where you've got the continuing mounting violence between israel and hamas and history suggests that it will never be decisive. so it's a question of when it ends, that's all. but, joe, what's so interesting about what's happened the last few days and weeks are all the other fault lines that have been exposed. and if i were an israeli, in the long run, i would be worried less about hamas than i would about the growing intercommunal violence between israeli jewss and the 2 million israeli arabs. and wow still have all the palestinian questions and the issues of jerusalem.

this has exposed all the multiple sources of instability and threats to israel. so those who thought the abraham accords, quote/unquote solved the problem, they were kidding themselves and ignored the palestinian issue and it ignored the growing tensions within israel itself. so this is a really alarming moment. can i just come back to one thing, joe? you asked the senator what we can do. let me suggest one or two things the united states can and should do. why don't we go to the u.n. security council this morning and introduce a cease-fire resolution? we should take the lead in calling for it. secondly, why don't we pull together all of the arab countries, some of whom now have relations with israel. have tony blinken, the secretary of state, convene a summit of the sunni/arab governments, several of whom give money to hamas and basically say, okay, let's work with hamas and get a cease-fire on that side. thirdly, as senator murphy said, he and his colleagues across the

aisle should pass a bipartisan resolution, calling for a cease-fire. why is that so important? because bibi netanyahu has come to believe that he can ignore joe biden, he can ignore any president of the united states, because at the end of the day, he has congress, he has orthodox jews, he has evangelical christians and they can box in a president of the united states. there's lots of things we should be doing to bring about a cease-fire. not a peace, but a cease-fire. >> so richard, why aren't we doing it? >> i think this administration has been focusing on other things, hoping this would be small, would burn out. and i think they're confusing -- they're right, there's no chance to bring peace. this is not a time to get a john kerry-like or henry kissinger-like secretary of state, thinking about he's bring about a two-state solution.

that isn't even on the back burner right now. that's off the stove. what we can simply do, i think, is to make it our priority to get a cease-fire. some of these things, like what's going on inside israel, that's going to be for bibi netanyahu or more likely his successors, they're going to have to work out. i think we're also possibly facing the moment where hamas becomes the voice of all palestinians. not simply palestinians in gaza. and we'll have to gradually deal with the consequences of that. this is not a moment for peace talks. this is a moment for simply using every piece of diplomatic congress we have. >> now to congressman liz cheney who continues to speak out against former president donald trump. >> former president trump continues to be a real danger. what he's doing and what he's saying, his claims, his refusal to accept decisions by the

courts, his claims continued as recently as yesterday that somehow this election was stolen. what he's doing is he's causing people to believe that they can't count on our electoral process to actually convey the will of the people. we have to be a nation of laws. if you continue to reject, if you reject the rulings of the courts, if you work against the rulings of our courts, you really are at war with the constitution. and he is a continuing danger to our system. >> however, the latest cbs news/ugov poll finds 80% of republicans who heard about liz cheney's removal from republican leadership agree with the decision. when asked why, nearly seven in ten toed the party line, that she was off-message. 57% said she had to go, because she was wrong about the 2020

election. 52%, because she didn't support donald trump. and 34% said disloyalty needs to be punished. the poll also shows the vast majority of republicans want the party to be made in trump's image. 89% want the gop to follow trump on economic issues. 88% on immigration, 80% want the party to follow trump's leadership style and 77% want his approached to media. 66% of republicans said it is important for the gop to be loyal to trump. when it comes to claims of fraud in the 2020 election, 37% of republicans said it is very important for gop officials and candidates to support the claim. 31% said it is somewhat important. 32% said not too important. and when asked if joe biden is the legitimate winner, only 33% said of republicans said "yes." 67% said, joe, he is not. and that, of course, is backing

up exactly why liz cheney is doing this and what she said on the house floor and before the cameras after, that he has misled millions of americans. >> and he continues to do it. he's lying about maricopa county now. but this really does explain. we look at house members, we look at some senate members and ask why they do what they do or say what they say or why they keep their heads down when they should tell the truth and support american democracy. you look at their constituents, casie hunt, and there's your answer. two in three republicans still believe the lie, the big lie that joe biden is not the legitimate president of the united states. and from all of my interactions with friends and family members, they don't want to be told otherwise. they don't want evidence that clearly undermines every one of

the conspiracy theories that they'll read on some loony website or on a facebook posting that's shared by a thousand friends. >> you know, i'm thinking about these numbers in two ways. and i think that slide that breaks it down, the 30-some percent of republicans think that joe biden is the legitimate president, and there are 67% who don't, if you focus on the 34 who say, yes, this president was dually elected, that is the truth, that's the group of people that liz cheney is looking at and saying, okay, republicans are only going to win general elections if not only we keep those 33% of people in the republican party, but we expand. the flip side is that other number that you're talking about, the people who believe it's stolen, who are listening to the big lie, and who as you say, aren't opening to hearing anything else about it. and what liz cheney has been out there saying is that those people, that ongoing disinformation, that refusal, is a current threat.

she is saying, this is not about the past. this is not about re-litigating, looking to the past. you know, republicans were trying to stay, she's stuck in the past, we want to move into the future. she is saying, this is about the future, because it is very dangerous to have that many americans question our electoral system. and it sets up real questions about whether people are going to be willing to believe, especially if republicans continue to lose elections, the results in 2022 and 2024 and beyond. and that's -- you know, she's been willing to take on some of the media outlets, in particular, she went on fox news and criticized fox news, which many republicans have not been willing to do, to say, we've got to do something about this information ecosystem. >> eddie glad, we have already heard from former president trump about these poll numbers. he put out a statement touting them. they seem to reinforce that the republican party, the vast majority of it, is still very much in his grip and even if he, himself, chooses not to run in

2024, it certainly seems like the candidates will be molded in his image going forward. that's what the base wants. and this also raises concerns about whether republicans will accept the legitimacy of any future election, whether it's in '22 or 2024. i'll ask you a simple question, eddie. how horriied are you? >> very much so. and i'm still trying to figure out, what does donald trump stand for? he has the charisma, jonathan, of american bread. so i don't see him as kind of motivating people to be excited about him and the like. there is something trump stands for. they are responding to some shifts in the kind of cultural, kind of grounding of america. so part of what makes this dangerous is that the shorthand for these sensibilities, for

this feeling, for these commitments is donald trump. but we need to wrap our minds around, what are the particulars that are driving so many americans to embrace what trumpism actually stands for. and once we start doing that, we all need to be horrified, because democracy stands on a knife's edge, it seems to me. >> richard haas, i have been wrong about donald trump time and again, thinking that he was eventually going to burn out. that he eventually was going to bust. i thought he would burn out after losing the presidency. he's not, at least not for now. it could still happen. i'm curious, though, what your thoughts are about the challenges to our democracy when two out of three republicans believe that the election was fixed, when 68% of republicans believe liz cheney was wrong, maybe it's 67%, believe liz

cheney is wrong about the election. we're talking a large number of americans still believing that they live in a country that has rigged elections. i'm curious, what's the long-term challenge for this country and we seeing this in other parts of the liberal west right now? >> joe, this is the greatest threat to the united states. it's not terrorism, it's not china, it's not iran, north korea, or russia. this is the greatest threat to american democracy. it's the threat from within. and yes, we are seeing versions of it around the world. we're seeing elements of it in france, in brazil, turkey. your seeing this kind of populist authoritarianism, that is growing up in many countries around the world. i think the only way to defeat it over time is with success

with an alternative. so that would mean the biden administration needs to succeed, yes, with covid, in dealing with that. it needs to, i would argue, start exporting vaccines. not simply for our health, but one of the reasons that people are coming to the united states, the immigration issue, is because their countries can't cope with covid. immigration is probably the hottest of all the hot-button issues generating some of those numbers. so we need to think about that and a tougher policy at the border. but you need to go through every issue that is galvanizing people's political behavior and this way, republicans will not succeed and gradually, failure will bring about other liz cheneys. right now, she's a voice in the wilderness, and what you really within the is for others to join her. to find her backbone, find her courage. people like you and me who have left that party would basically say, hey, there are now some voices in the republican party that we can respect. we may not agree on everything,

but we agree on some things. i think that will only happen, though, when bidenism succeeds and republicans are just basically defeated, defeated, defeated. as long as they espouse these lies. >> richard, also, it's important to say. those in my position consider ourselves to be a conservative. and are concerned, you know, continue to be concerned, as i was during the trump era and the obama era and the bush era with rising deficits, rising debt, and especially now, this rising threat of inflation, which not only will hurt consumers, but will be devastating to our budget when it comes to servicing the national debt. >> you're exactly right. you know, right now, this enormous debt is serviceable, because rates are so low. but really small increases in rates given the scale of the debt will crowd out domestic spending across the board, from defense to all the things that

are now part of the safety net. so you're right. but again, if republicans or anybody, independents, are going to have a voice in that, there is a case for consistency rather than what looks to be political opportunism. but you're exactly right. that day is coming, quite possibly, joe, sooner than a lot of people predicted. >> all right, richard haas, thank you so much. still ahead on "morning joe," the whistleblower who wasn't. a former florida department of health employee alleged a vast conspiracy about coronavirus data and now allegations that none of it was true. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right bac

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. 35 past the hour. at the height of the covid crisis came a major allegation

out of florida that the state was underreporting coronavirus cases and deaths. it was made by an employee at the state's department ofbecka . the raid of her home quickly went viral as she claimed the governor was out to get her. but new reporting alleges she never had access to change the data, as she claimed, and was actually fired for not following company policy. joining us now, senior writer for the "national review," charles cook. his latest reporting is entitled rebekah jones, the covid whistle-blower who wasn't. also with us, dave aaronberg, who's also looking into this. >> charlie, so everybody followed the first round of these stories, you know, the "sun-sentinel" and other florida papers were talking about this whistle-blower, we had the dramatic video. i know back in i think it was november or december, we covered the first few stories.

and then it sort of disappeared, at least for us. but you say it's continued, the story has continued, and you say that she wasn't a whistle-blower. that in fact, you she's a fabulousist. walk us through it. >> well, this is a good segment following your previous segment, that the election was stolen. this story has been all over the internet. you cannot comment on florida's covid response without hearing. it's been shared by nikki free, who's running for governor. by joy reid and rachel maddow, by chris cuomo on cnn. and it's been widespread enough that jones has raised $500,000 off of it. and it's astonishing to me that nobody has really looked into this. because while this has poised in millions of minds, it's easily rebuttable looking at public information. i didn't write my piece by

stalking around in parking lots at 4:00 in the morning, meeting witnesses. i just read documents that were publicly available. and when you do that, you find out this is not a political dispute, brebekha jones is using claims that can be rebutted -- >> well, give us the facts. >> she makes some claims. she makes the claim that dr. shamara robeson told her to falsify the raw data. it didn't happen. not least because she didn't have the capacity to do that. rebekha has nothing to do with that. she claims she was fired for refusing to fudge the numbers. that's the phrase you hear a lot. she wasn't. she was fired for

insubordination, as her personnel file, which is public, makes clear. she claims as revenge for telling the truth, governor ron desantis sent her gestapo after her, that's her words, but that's untrue. her house was searched because records from comcast shows that a computer that used her ip address had hacked into the state's system and downloaded private personnel information from 19,000 state employees. then she alleged all sorts of misbehavior from the florida department of law enforcement, which body camera footage shows wasn't true. i mean, in a more broad sense, she makes all sorts of epidemiological claims that don't stand up to scrutiny or that are designed to mislead. i spent a long time looking into this. and at every turn, i discovered that rather than this being a scandal, and it would be. this would be one of the biggest political scandals in american history, i discovered deceit and

deception. and so will anyone else that bothers to investigate this. there is nothing special about me. >> well, i think -- we think you're special, although you are not wearing a scarf, today, of course, you shouldn't in florida this time of year. there was one part i didn't really follow. i certainly got -- you laid your arguments out clearly. i didn't quite follow that dramatic footage from the raid you said was -- you had said it was set up or something like that. what is your argument about the police raid, where you said that she -- i think you used -- i don't want to misquote you here, but you said, it was -- she sort of set it up. what were you talking about there? what are we looking at when we show this video? >> she didn't set it up. she did put a sign saying, "biden, hire me" in front of the camera before the police arrived, which suggests that she wasn't too surprised. but she made claims that just weren't true. she filed a lawsuit that had to be rescinded and all the local

papers here, once the body cam footage put out, what she claims doesn't stand up. she claims that the police used gestapo-like tactics, from a "miami herald" op-ed that she wrote and that they pointed guns at her children. while the body cam footage, which was released by the florida department of law enforcement shows that that's not true. moreover, the idea that this was somehow revenge for telling the truth is ridiculous. i mean, this is a felony charge. she has been arrested. she turned herself in in january. she's awaiting trial on a felony charge for hacking and downloading information from state computer systems. that has nothing to do with her firing, which was for insubordination. and she's currently awaiting two trials in florida, one for a misdemeanor stalking charge, one for a felony for hacking. and, you know, there is just no reason for the state to ignore

that behavior, because she has made false claims elsewhere. >> dave aaronberg, what can you tell us. it's certainly not in your jurisdiction, i'm not suggesting that it is. but what can you tell us about these claims and other claims that have been made? >> good morning, joe. rebekah jones is an imperfect messenger. he's had her issues. but she's not the first to accuse governor desantis of a lack of transparency. months before she was fired before the department of health, months before she became a whistle-blower, the "sun-sentinel" newspaper came out with a scathing expose entitled secrecy and spin, how florida's governor misled the public on the covid-19 pandemic. and they accused the governor of suppressing data that was unfavorable to his administration, dispensing dangerous information, and promoting the views of political

hacks instead of the public health officials. and they said that he hid information about the spread of covid in nursing homes, prisons, and hospitals. and that the state's calculation of its positivity rate was different than the methods used in most other states and that it overemphasized the negative tests and thus came up with a low positivity rate compared to other states. and they also found that the state knew they had covid here as soon as january of 2020, 175 cases by february of last year. so all of this stuff is fair game. all of this stuff deserves scrutiny. and none of it originated with rebekah jones. >> all of it certainly does deserve scrutiny. and this is something that was running against ron desantis, you bring up. but let's just talk about rebekah jones here, since she has -- she's raising money and she's still in some circles being seen as some victim.

you say imperfect -- an imperfect messenger. again, you can separate this out from ron desantis. do you agree with charles, though, that people should stop using her as a source for any attacks on ron desantis and how he responded to the covid crisis? >> joe, she claims that she was told when she was at the department of health to cook the books. to put forth untrue information and she refused to do so. there has not been any corroboration of those claims. rebekah johnson would say, that's because the people who work at the department of health are fearful of their health and don't want to end up like her. but i would grant charlie's point, there has not been krox and that deserves attention. but the larger picture of ron desantis's politicization of the pandemic is real. he's the one that ignored our

public health officials and lied on dr. scott at last, who is the one who advised former president trump. that's why florida was one of only 11 states not to have a mandatory mask mandate. and there's the curious case of the medical examiners. they had data that showed that our state's deaths were higher than the state's data. and to remedy that discrepancy, the state of florida ordered the medical examiners to stop publishing their data. i guess under the principle that if you close your eyes, the problem goes away. that was undone because of political pressure. they allowed the medical examiners to publish their information, but not before a lot of it was redacted. and the state's medical chair said this was a sham. and there's a reason why the state of florida has a million doses of the drug hydroxychloroquine. because donald trump promoted and it governor desantis went out and got it. so we're stuck with a drug that no hospital wants. but in case there's a malaria outbreak, we'll be set.

>> dave, my friend -- >> we're protected from malaria. >> i don't want to put you on the cross-examination stand, but i must ask you, again, all of this may be true. and if newspapers and if political opponents want to ask that question, then they ask those questions and continue to ask those questions, that's a political campaign. but when it comes to rebekah jones, should people stop holding her up as some icon, as some whistle-blower, if in fact, she is a federalist who made this up. and should democrats be just as concerned about spreading misinformation as we say republicans should be? >> i think it's important that we scrutinize her claims. and there was no proof that she was told to doctor information. i will grant you that. but i think if you go look through the "sun-sentinel" and other sources that say, hey,

there is legitimate information that this information in tallahassee suppressed data -- >> but again, counselor, you're going off point. i'm just asking about this particular witness on the stand. do we want this particular witness on the stand or would you take her off the stand? you've said now three times, there's no corroborating witnesses that agree with her story, right? >> correct. as a prosecutor, i would not put her on the stand. if that's what you're trying to get at. and we had the discussion, when the details came out of the raid. i greed with charlie that the raid -- i think police did not act properly. when they come into a strange environment where they were forced to stand outside for 22 minutes and not let in, you can see why they were a little perturbed and had guns drawn, because they don't know what was going on around that corner. i thought that was a little strange, but i wouldn't use this as an overall argument to say that everything is hunky-dory in

the state of florida. >> well -- >> for sure. >> and i'm sure charles, you're -- you're going to the point of rebecca jones, more specifically, right? >> i hope your audience can see what your guest is doing here, as you've pointed out, which is trying at every point to avoid talking about the topic this morning. but if you want to broaden it out, we can do so. rebecca jones, almost immediately after having been fired, i'm quoting here, told the associated press, which reported that she had not alleged any tampering of her own deaths, hospital system surveillance, hospitalizations for covid-19, numbers of new and confirmed cases, or overall test rates. and for the associated press, she acknowledged that florida has been relatively transparent. the guy who led the florida emergency management response for covid, jared moskowitz, who's not a republican.

in fact, he's a progressive democrat who was in the florida legislature as a democrat and describes himself as a progressive, has said that what she has alleged is a conspiracy theory. it is no good to try to say, well, she may not be reliable, but or to try to broaden this out or to try to smear the state's response with her. this is a conspiracy theory. there are political objections to the way that florida is run. there are, of course, legitimate. people in america have different political views. i am a conservative. i suspect your other guest is not. that's fine. but what we are talking here about is whether or not the conspiracy theory about florida's numbers is true. s is not. florida has been transparent, as the sunshine law makes sure it is transparent. and the numbers are kosher. >> charles cooke, thank you so much. and my other guest, also my friend, dave aaronberg. i will give you the final word.

go ahead. >> thank you. just real quickly, i have to take issue. florida has not been fully transparent and it's not just rebekah jones that says so. she deserves all the scrutiny, but there's a larger issue at play here. admittedly, i don't make my casm sticking to the facts. >> let me say this. >> i think you are charming. >> you wandered off into the field once or twice. if you want to be as charming as charles, you need to wear the scarf. charles, come back, please. we appreciate you being on, having a respectful conversation. let's keep it up. >> if you replay this and take what dave said and take the word but out and put and in, it will make sense. two things can be true at once. she's a bad witness. bad things happened. tony blinken is weighing in

on the crisis in the middle east, saying the biden administration is working intensively behind the scenes to try to bring an end to the conflict. we will hear more of his latest comments straight ahead. how great is it that we get to tell everybody how liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need? i mean it... oh, sorry... [ laughter ] woops! [ laughter ] good evening! meow! nope. oh... what? i'm an emu! ah ha ha. no, buddy! buddy, it's a filter! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ there's interest you accrue, and interests you pursue. plans for the long term, and plans for a long weekend. assets you allocate, and ones you hold tight. at thrivent, we believe money is a tool, not a goal.

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let's bring in -- >> that's a harsh wake-up. >> it's the sex pistols. all the kids love 'em. at least this kid. roger bennett. >> that explains everything. now i get it. >> he is the author of "reborn in the usa, an englishman's love letter." roger, talk about the three greatest things that have happened in british history. newton and apple falling on his head. you have to put that in there.

that's one of the thing. ve day where the allies win in europe. and then that header in the 95th minute, the first time in liverpool's storied history, first time since 1892, that a goalkeeper hit a ball into the back of the onion patch or whatever that guy called it, the back of the net. was that not one of the most remarkable endings you have seen in a match? >> this is a must-win game. west brom took the lead in the 15th minute. liverpool defense went a bit national guard. fine finish. liverpool took the punch on the chin. found a way back into the game through the egyptian king.

such instinct, technique. prepare to drink this in. we are in the 95th minute. they push their goalkeeper up for a corner. who gets his forehead on the ball? his aim is true. insane technique. first goalkeeper in premiere league history to score a header. liverpool find a way to win. it was beautiful. he said, this is the way god loves us, through people. what is the american equivalent of this poetry in motion? >> if you could, roger, explain to people -- i thought you would love this especially. this guy, probably the best goalkeeper in the world or has been in the past. he lost his father several months ago in a tragic accident. afterwards said that the only

way he got through was -- this might not mean a lot more american fans. he said for fans -- they hate everton. but he tipped his hat to their fans and fans across the premiere league and said, i could have never gotten through this if it weren't for your love. he said it was through that love that god reaches out to us. it was an extraordinarily moving moment after the match. >> yeah. this is a human being whose father, in a tragic accident on a lake in february, passed away. he has had his third child this week. to do this, when his team needed him, so much humanity. it's one of those moments. a poetic human moment that transcends sports. it's why we watch. this will be remembered for generations. your children's children will annoy my children's children about this. this is the 1988 world series

home run, coming into the game, bottom of the ninth, two outs, hit the big one. that's the equivalent. even my cold, dark heart found it beautiful. >> it's a cold heart. all everton through and through. very upset the chelsea blue came up short. >> second most important tournament. chelsea against leicester city. slow burning game came to life on 63 minutes. it was a game that needed a goal. thank god it got one worthy of the occasion. look at this. the first belgian to sign up for space x, sending this rocket to the moon. blistering a ball.

flying straight into that situation room, beautiful watching him celebrate with fans. live and in person, 21,000, after a year of pandemic football, i will never take that for granted. chelsea came close. incredible reflexes. strong wrists. as george elliott said, art is made of amplifying experience of extending our contact with men beyond the bounds of our personal lot. that's the emotions leicester city had. as they say in england, mazel tov. >> we will be tuning in to nbc sports network for the season finale of the show that is -- it has changed the way you think about football. it changed the way you thought about love. it's changed the way you have

thought about life. >> i make it for an audience of one, mika. >> of course. >> thank you, roger bennett. up next on "morning joe," israel unleashed another series of air strikes. netanyahu accuses hamas of targeting israeli civilians. we will talk to a palestinian diplomat and an advisor to the israeli prime minister. we are back in 90 seconds. [♪♪] when you have diabetes, managing your blood sugar is crucial. try boost glucose control. the patented blend is clinically shown to help manage blood sugar levels. boost glucose control products contain high quality protein and key nutrients to support immune health.

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the cdc announced fully vaccinated people no longer have to wear masks or socially distance. except if you go to most places. anyway, have fun out there. >> good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it's monday, may 17th. with us we have white house reported jonathan lemire, washington anchor for bbc world news america, katty kay and editor for "the washington post" david ignacius. we have seen the confusion with masks. we went out to a place with people. >> it doesn't happen that much. we traveled through -- i traveled back yesterday and traveled through airports.

huge, massive, cavernous airports without a lot people, you have to put your mask on. okay. cdc said -- but okay. >> people are being careful. >> in another state i went to -- one store, you have to have your mask. the next, you don't have to. there needs to be clarification. the only thing i have asked all along -- i'm a simple country lawyer, as you know. a plain, simple country lawyer. i just ask the trump administration to follow the science. i'm asking the biden administration to follow the science. they are. now i'm asking the state governor's, follow the science and also people that run their businesses, follow the science. i'm not asking for much. inside of restaurants or inside of retail stores. if the cdc is saying return to normal, and if you have been vaccinated don't wear a mask, you don't have to wear a mask, and that should mean, don't wear

a mask. there's a lot of virtue signaling from the right when they were knocking down masks and doing crazy things while the cdc was saying not to. there's virtue signaling in an abundance of caution but in other cases it doesn't make sense. people walking around wearing masks outside the size of massachusetts. war is over. if you want it. >> i don't think it's the end of the world. i'm going to wear a mask in planes and crowded areas. i just am. >> i said last week i was going to continue to wear a mask on a plane. some were going crazy. my god, he is wearing a mask. that's a cdc requirement. there are cdc requirements. if we want to encourage people to get the vaccine -- we want to

get people getting the vaccine. why? for the same reason we have our children get vaccines before they go to school, for the same reason even though the likelihood of our children getting polio and diphtheria and measles is low, we still get that. why? because we want to keep herd immunity. we want to drive those diseases from the face of the earth. it's the same thing here. if we want to encourage americans to get the vaccine, as dr. gottlieb said, you have to lighten up when it comes to mask if the science is there. and the science is there. the science is there especially for outside. yes, we are learning things as we move along. why didn't they say this in december? they didn't say it in december, einstein, because they are still

learning. they are still figuring this out. we don't want to get a vaccine and wear a mask. you know, you can still pass it along to other people. you are not going to get the effects of it yourself. you are going to be asymptomatic. the goal here is the same goal that doctors and scientists and epidemiologists have had for decades. drive the number of people with vaccines up. get it to herd immunity, whether it's kids, whether it's teenagers, whether it's adults. even if you are not looking at that person and what their reaction may be to the coronavirus, you are looking at them maybe getting it and passing it on to somebody who actually may have some underlying problems. get the numbers up. you get the numbers up, you get herd immunity and this is behind us for good. you don't have to worry about

your loved ones who may not have gotten the vaccine for whatever reason. again, as scott gottlieb said, we have to have a consistency when it comes to mask mandates. people need to listen to the cdc if you are running a business, if you are running a state, if you are running a town. come on. lighten up and encourage people to go get the vaccine. >> jonathan lemire, the word from the white house has been very clear in terms of loosening the mask mandate, to understand the science. how are they employing it within the white house? what are you hearing? >> the white house itself was caught off guard by the cdc, the timing of the announcement last week on masks. only a few senior officials were given a heads up. the president himself wasn't briefed until thursday morning. that day, as word spread through the building, staffers took off their masks as they worked, whether inside their small

offices, reporters who have been fully vaccinated, who were in the building that day, myself included, we took our masks off as well, if you had completed the two shot cycle and those two weeks after the second shot. not everyone has yet. they believe it is important to send the public image. we heard from the president that afternoon in the rose probably has been since he came into office. believing that signified the nation turning a corner on the pandemic. to be clear, there's a long way to go still. they know there's pockets of the population that have been hesitant to get the vaccine. they need to convince them to do so. there are pockets of population that have had a hard time getting it. they need to improve the outreach. even as we see the demand fall in states across the nation and pressure rise on the u.s. to export vaccines to other countries who are having that much more difficult of a time. they are, indeed, going to continue to follow the cdc,

criticize perhaps the cdc for moving too slowly in the past. the white house has been sending signals about this that they want clearer messaging as to who should wear a mask when. of course, this all relies somewhat at least on people in the honor system being candid about whether they have had the vaccine. that's why we see some places in the early days err on the side of caution and require people to wear them. >> we will talk more about this. we turn now to israel's overnight launch of another barrage of air strikes on gaza. israel says it destroyed nine miles of palestinian militant tunnels and the homes of nine alleged hamas commanders this morning. gaza residents were awakened today by what's described as the heaviest attack since the conflict broke out a week ago. meanwhile, israeli residents are taking shelter as palestinian rockets rain down on the country's southern cities. these latest attacks come after

the deadliest day of violence yesterday. rescue crews in gaza were still combing through rubble last night, looking for survivors of a morning bombing where three buildings were hit over the course of five minutes. this while israel's emergency service system reported direct hits in two major cities, including one to a synagogue. israel says hamas has fired nearly 3,000 missiles in their direction since last monday. in a televised address yesterday, benjamin netanyahu insisted the attacks would continue at, quote, full force. the gaza health ministry says at least 197 people have been killed since the violence began, including 58 children. israel has reported ten deaths with two being children. >> david, you wrote about this movingly a few days ago. this is a nightmare. there's a cycle of violence that

seems to continue every four, five, six years. in this case, there are dark political overtones to this tragedy. i am surprised that in the united states, which the united states coverage usually bends pro israel, i think we can all say that, generally it has through the years. there seems to be an agreement among most analysts and foreign policy leaders that this is a political crisis in part because the only two winners out of this are benjamin netanyahu and hamas. both of them, their credibility was strained on both sides. as this tragedy continues and people continue to die disproportionately on the

palestinian side, but on both sides, the only people winning from this politically are netanyahu and hamas. >> i think that's the hardest part about this, joe, is that civilians, as in every war i have ever covered, are the ones who pay the worst price. that's happening on both sides with palestinian civilians in gaza, the numbers of dead and wounded are terrible to read and israeli civilians. the attacks on tel aviv, rocket attacks, really upset israelis. they felt that was crossing a red line. that's a major population center. i talked to administration officials overnight to ask what are they doing about this terrible tragedy. the answer is what you would expect. they are working behind the scenes for a cease-fire. they know that as long as netanyahu is determined to

continue and try to get as much gain on the ground as he can, this is not likely to end. there are a lot of people in key positions who were around for the last gaza war in 2014. that lasted 51 days. we are one week into this one. there's a recognition, this may take a while. there's a lot of talk in the administration about beginning to think about post-conflict humanitarian reconstruction. gaza is one of the saddest places i have visited. so many people packed together, so much suffering. people just trapped. extremists seem to be the only political leaders that have any staying power in gaza. there's this hope that somehow over time you would begin to get more responsible authorities in gaza, get money to new groups. that was the hope back in 2014.

let's empower egypt, the palestinian authority. let's bring the palestinian moderates into gaza to challenge hamas. you know what? it didn't work at all. >> right. >> they are thinking the same ideas again. there's a recognition, joe, that our ability to influence the situation now is very limited. coming up, we will speak with a top advisor to benjamin netanyahu. first, we are joined by the head of the palestinian mission to the uk. donald trump's defense secretary had three goals for the final weeks of his administration. number one, no major war. number two, no military coup. three, no troops fighting citizens on the streets. jonathan swan joins us next with his incredible reporting. eportig ♪it's, oh, so quiet♪

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we want to turn to national political reporter jonathan swan who has new reporting on what was happening behind the scenes at one of the tensest moments between a president and the military in modern history. it's for the final episode. i'm stunned at what i'm reading in terms of president trump's then attempt to address the afghanistan situation and how he had a withdrawal plan, that's for sure. i will tell you about that in a moment. but no peace president, which is what president biden has to deal with now. it's this piece of paper where they had directionss including get us out of afghanistan, iraq, syria, withdrawal from germany,

out of africa. that was the president communicating with one of his top generals. >> his former body man, former college football quarterback, was brought back into government to run the office of presidential personnel. he calls up a retired army colonel, highly controversial figure who has been excommunicated from the military establishment, calls him into his office in the executive office building, sits him down. he has come from the oval office and presents him with this piece of paper and says, this is what the president wants you to do. it's the list you just read out. this is not just -- we talked about afghanistan. it's a big deal. he wanted him to get out before the end of the presidency.

trump was talked out of that order. trump wanted to go broader. he was asking to complete a withdrawal out of germany, which would have completely reshaped america's role in the world, our alliances, our relationship with nato. this is not some sort of incremental decision. he had already ordered a drawdown from germany. this would have been one of the most radical foreign policy decisions we have seen. douglas mcgregor is not some person who is cautious about withdrawing from the world. he is someone who has gone on fox news and attacked congressional leadership and the pentagon leadership at idiots and ridiculed their policy and gone for a completely maximalism get out of everywhere in the middle east. he was like, yeah, i don't flow if we can do this before the end of the presidency.

that gives you a sense of where things were at. >> we have david ignatius with us. david has a question. >> great reporting. let me ask you the question that really haunted me when i was looking at some of these same events. that is, what was the trump inner circle's plan if they could have somehow derailed biden's election victory and gone on to january 20? did you look into what role these military moves might have played in their larger scheme? were these just specific ad hoc moves, in your judgment? >> i never got the sense -- i have done dozens and dozens of reporting on these events and talked to pretty much everyone who had proximity to them. i don't get a sense there was a

larger plan. it was trump completely obsessed with grabbing for whatever he could to derail the transition, to try to overturn the results of the democratic election and obstruct biden getting into power. there was this parallel track where he was trying to get all of this stuff done that he had been talking about for four years and never actually gotten done but would have potentially put biden in an extremely dangerous position. this is what others went to the oval and said to the president is if you try to withdraw at this rate, kabul could fall. they talked trump out of it. the argument -- i reached out for comment. he ended up talking to me on the phone. he was obsessed with the equipment. the argument that seemed to resonate with donald trump was not leave the expensive

equipment behind. that's the thing that -- they use arguments that appeal to his transactional nature. this seemed to be one that just barely kept america engaged in afghanistan so biden could actually approach this in a deliberative fashion. >> thank you very much. coming up, back to breaking news. the conflict in the middle east. we will hear directly from two people on the political front lines next on "morning joe." ♪♪ deliberative fashion. deliberative fashion see you st♪ ♪ i want to feel you be proud ♪ ♪ i want to hear your beating heart ♪ ♪ live out loud ♪ ♪ you can do it on your own ♪

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if hamas thought they could fire and sit back and enjoy immunity, that's false. we are targeting a terrorist organization that is targeting our civilians and hiding behind their civilians. >> israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu speaking yesterday with cbs news. we will speak with a senior advior to netanyahu. first, we are joined by the head of the palestinian mission to the uk. he is the former head of the plo mission to the united states. thank you very much for being on with us this morning. >> mr. ambassador, thank you for being with us during these

trying and terrible times. let me ask you first of all, there's talk in washington starting of a possible cease-fire. would you support a cease-fire in this back and forth war? >> of course i would support that. it's our people, the palestinian people who are as we speak now live on tv, are subject to an industrial scale mass murder of children and others. not only in gaza. it was in jerusalem before that. our people, palestinians are being targeted by mobs. we must end this immediately. we must end it now. we look forward to see more action by the international community. so far, there has been inaction,

contradiction, including the u.s. and the biden administration. >> mr. prime minister, benjamin netanyahu was talking about missiles being fired into israel. i certainly know just following american history that if one missile were fired into this country from a foreign country, we would probably declare war at that moment. how should the israelis respond to the 3,000 missiles fired from hamas? how do we get to a point where the air strikes stop against the palestinian territories and the missiles stop going into israel? >> if anybody who should be blamed for what is happening, it's netanyahu himself. he has been spreading sickening lies that we use our children as human shields, that he has the most sophisticated guided missiles targeted at our

civilians, lies like they are targeting missiles. lies like this is a war between israel and hamas when it's an aggression on palestinians. it started in provocations. at the height of the holy month, at the highest of the evening, the most sacred in the muslim calendar, all the provocations. netanyahu has sponsored for 20 odd years of spreading hating v. he wants to displace the entire palestinian population and replace them with jewish colonies and settlers. it's unprecedented.

before the sickening lies must be now called off, i come back to the role of the leader of the free world. there's a lot of contradictions. biden wants to see equal measures of freedom, of security, of dignity and prosperity. there's no such a thing as we speak. there's one state, that is israel. it's one government, that's netanyahu. they are harboring terrorism against our people. they are engaged in establishing a greater israel project. the incitement happening live on tv, on social media by israeli politicians are all crimes. it's a time for leadership by the u.s. if they mean the statement that equal measures, that we are all equal, all men and women have been created equal, if they mean

it, the first is to stop the israeli atrociies immediately, to provide protection, international protection to the palestinian people, to our homes and properties. >> we only have a certain amount of time. let me get you to respond to what "the new york times" wrote this morning. hamas fired nearly 3,000 rockets towards israeli cities and towns, a clear war crime. how do you respond to that? >> well, the action of palestinians, you have to judge it. it has gone on for a long time that we only focus on the reaction on defenseless. they both have israel's most sophisticated air strikes. we don't have the iron dome provided by the u.s. to intercept the primitive rockets. yet, the main focus is always on our ability to -- our attempt to defend ourselves.

in the end, joe, this isn't about palestine occupying israel. we don't occupy anybody. it's israel occupying our land. it's israel that has been sieging the 2 million people that they are bombarding in gaza. the majority of them, 80% of them, including myself, my parents, were refugees in 1948. our displacement, ethnic cleansing of the industrial scale, denial of our rights is ongoing for 100 years. when the palestinian people rise up to stand for their rights, to call for their rights, the right of equality, of self-determination, the right to move, to work, the right to own their homes, the right -- the

whole discussion becomes about our struggle to have justice. it is injustice that must end and stop immediately. >> ambassador, we have seen these images out of both israel but also gaza. i was hoping you would give us an updated situation in terms of the hospitals, particularly since there's a covid outbreak, what is happening with the people there in gaza, but what efforts are being done to stop -- you have talked about the right -- you talked about israel launching weapons. rockets are being pyrefired by s as well. what is being done to prevent that side of it? >> the real missing side of this equation is the international community, is the united states. the u.s. was very quick, the biden administration was very quick to condemn palestinian reactions. the u.s. never condemned israeli actions on a daily basis over decades. the u.s. was quick to call for

the cessation of palestinian reaction, to condemn so-called palestinian violence but never visited root cause. the u.s. also gave israel the right to self-defense. israeli is the occupier. what international law gives to people under occupation, it's not us who drafted this. it is you in the u.s., in europe and elsewhere after the second world war. and yet the u.s. so far -- the biden administration has really not given its all to be the leader of the free world and impose the will of the international community. these rules are very clear. our people have rights. we do have rights. the main, main issue here is that how do we end israimpunity? how do we deliver to israel a

message that these aggressions must stop immediately? also we should not go back to the status quo. we do not want to go back to the situation that led us where we are today. the u.s. can do so. the u.s. provides israel with rockets, with military might. it protects israel. the u.s. has opposed our efforts. the u.s. can do it. regrettably, the u.s. so far is not doing what it should be doing in terms of imposing and pressuring israel to stop this madness. what is happening is not less than human madness at an industrial state at the hands of netanyahu. >> mr. ambassador, thank you so much for being with us. hope you will return. certainly, our prayers are with your parents, who you mentioned, your family and all those civilians right now that are caught up in this terrible

bloodshed. thank you for being with us. please come back. up next, the view from the other side. a senior advisor to israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu joins us. keep it right here on "morning joe." age is just a number. and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein

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man: ...and providing a safe learning environment students could count on. woman: join us in honoring the work of educators. together, we will build a better california for all of us. israeli air strikes flatten three apartment buildings in gaza city. there aren't rescue crews to speak of. when the poorly equipped teams arrived, they had to dig for survivors however they could. they pulled dozens out still alive, trapped in the rubble for hours. they found more than 40 dead, including health officials say, two dozen women and children. >> part of richard engel's report for "nbc nightly news" last night. joining us now, senior advisor to prime minister benjamin netanyahu, former israeli ambassador to the uk. thank you for being with us. >> thanks so much for being with

us. let me ask you the same question i asked the ambassador. does israel suppose a cease-fire right now? >> we hopefully soon but not just yet. ultimately, you can't have a situation where hamas fires rockets at israeli civilians. then they just -- when we start hitting back, they say, we want protection from the united nations. we want a cease-fire. no. we have to come out of this operation with a sustained period of peace and quiet that's good for israelis, good for palestinians. we don't want a band-aid solution which is a prescription for further problems. >> i quoted to the ambassador "the new york times" conclusion that hamas has likely committed war crimes. i'm sure you have seen the same article this morning. they say israel has subjected gaza to such an intense

bombardment, killing families, that it probably constitutes a disproportionate use of force, also a wartime. the article says at least 197 palestinians, including 92 women and children, have been killed. what is the end game here? what does another week of bombing, where civilians die disproportionately on the palestinian side, but also in israel, what is to be gained by this continued fighting? >> we didn't want this conflict. on the contrary. we took a number of steps before this erupted to try to deescalate, steps the u.s. government praised us for. hamas was hell bent on initiating this. in attacking hamas, we are trying to be as surgical as is possible in a very complicated, complex environment. we are taking every care to try

to avoid any sort of civilian casualties. we don't want to see people caught up in the crossfire. it's very difficult. hamas while targeting the civilian population, as you have dean body after body of rockets on israeli cities. they are trying to murder our people. families across israel, including my own, have had to run to bomb shelters in the middle of the night because our cities are being bombarded continuously. we are trying to protect ourselves. at the same time, we're doing a maximum effort using the best technology we have to try to be as surgical as possible in a complex situation. we don't want to see palestinian casualties of the uninvolved, of innocent civilians. they are not our enemy. our enemy is this brutal terrorist movement trying to kill our people. >> mr. regev, the associated press had breaking news this morning. it says our secretary of state

antony blinken has not seen any evidence that puts hamas leadership in the gaza building where the ap offices were destroyed. he said he has not seen any evidence. he has asked for that evidence. do you have evidence, does your government have evidence that the secretary of state can see that will confirm that hamas was, in fact, working out of that building? >> 100% yes. i have seen the evidence myself. it is classified. it was classified, i can tell you top secret. i have seen that evidence. we have passed it through the intelligence services services between israel and the united states. as you know, we have a close intelligence partnership. i'm sure all the relevant officials in the u.s. government will be seeing that information, that intelligence shortly. >> professor glaude is with us and have a question.

>> how would you respond to the question that the blockade of gaza, the mainstreaming of extremism in israeli politics and settlement policies is at the heart of this? how would you respond to those arguments? >> i would say that of course we want to solve our problem with the palestinians. we want to see peace. of course, we would like to be out of this conflict and in a different place. we have a problem. that problem is hamas. hamas is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization. even across the arab world. arab governments designate hamas a terrorist organization. they are committed in their policy to destroy the state of israel. for them, every israeli civilian, man, woman, child, is a legitimate target. we see this week in their attacks. i remind you that when the peace process was moving ahead very aggressively during the period

of oslo, they launched suicide bombings against israeli civilians. when the peace process has been stuck today, they are again shooting rockets. hamas is not interested in peace. hamas is the enemy of everyone who wants to see peace and reconciliation and everyone who wants to see peace should support israel. it's important hamas is defeated and they come out of the operation weakened and in a situation where they can't dictate the situation to palestinians or israel. >> it's jonathan lemire. the ambassador said he welcomed international intervention. european and u.s. leaders to broker some sort of cease-fire here. do you -- does israel have that same wish if the u.n. security council were to call for it, if president biden were to do so, would there be interest from the prime minister and israel to have that meeting, to have that

cease-fire? >> first of all, the guest on was my former colleague. we were both in london. i was disappointed though not surprised he refused to condemn the missile fire by hamas into israel. the targeting of our innocent population, the deliberate attempt to murder civilians. there's no parody here. this is a democratic society defending itself. to your question, we want to see this end. we want to see it end soon. as i said a moment ago, a band-aid solution that takes us back to square one is a prescription for further violence down the line. we want to come out of this crisis, this terrible crisis, with the situation where the israeli public in israel does not have to live in fear -- in constant fear of an incoming rocket. we are concerned that a

premature, artificial band-aid solution will give hamas time to regroup, rest, recuperate and we have missiles on tel aviv next week or next month. that doesn't solve anything. we are looking for a real solution. >> i want to read a few thoughts from thomas freedman who writes, no, hamas and bibi don't talk. they don't need to. they each understand what the other needs, to stay in power and consciously or unconsciously behave in ways to ensure that they deliver it. the latest rerun of their long running nasty show is happening now because both were staring at an amazing breakthrough, shaping up between israel jews and israel arab muslims and like the pro trump mob on january 6th, they wanted to destroy the possibility of political change before it could destroy them politically. >> mr. regev, that is not just

the opinion of thomas freedman, as i'm sure you know, a lot of commentators have suggested that this bloodshed, this fighting is in the best interest politically and cynically for bibi netanyahu as well as hamas. each, who were in danger of losing power, are strengthened among their base by doing this. how do you respond? >> it's only half true. it's true in the fact that we know that hamas wanted this crisis, that hamas orchestrated the violence, they provoked it and launched the rockets starting the crisis a week ago, monday last week. that is true. hamas wanted this crisis. most of the analysis i hear says that hamas wanted this because the palestinian authority canceled the scheduled election. hamas was playing its cards very

cool hoping to do well in the election, to seize power in the palestinian authority. when that door was closed to them, they thought to shake up the situation. what better way from their perspective than to attack israel? from our perspective, dead wrong. the article is dead wrong. i was with prime minister netanyahu in the cabinet room. we did everything we could to deescalate. we took specific steps which the u.s. government praised designed to reduce tension. remind you also that this conflict isn't about a particular prime minister. this is not a partisan issue. the current government contains netanyahu loyalists and rivals. both a defense minister and others are in opposition. when you defend your people against incoming rockets sent by terrorists trying to kill you,

that's something the country is united behind. this is not a partisan political issue in israel. >> thank you so much for being with us. just as we said to our previous guest, certainly our thoughts and prayers are with those israeli who have lost loved ones, and we will certainly be keeping your country in our thoughts and our prayers, and let's hope for a cease-fire very soon. we appreciate it. hope you'll come back. and, mika, we'll continue this conversation. we wanted to make sure there was equal time, pretty close to it today. and we're going to continue to try to do this tomorrow, to continue hearing from the sources in the middle of this terrible conflict. this tragedy that keeps unfolding before our eyes. >> update will follow from the united states' perspective, as they try to figure out what

happens between the latest bombings in the ap headquarters. >> ap, al jazeera, media outlet's. hopefully tomorrow also, we will have some progress where the united states moves towards -- helps move towards a cease-fire. we're not going to get a global settlement here obviously for probably another generation but we need to move towards a cease-fire. we need to use the leverage we have to move towards the cease-fire and stop this killing, which, again, is disproportionately impacting palestinian civilians. up next -- a timeline. powerful message about the fight for equal justice in america.

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same day shipping across town. returns right from the doorstep, and deliveries seven days a week. it's a whole new world out there. let's not keep it waiting. we are in a state of emergency. black people are dyeing in a state of emergency. we cannot look at this as an isolated incident. buildings are not burning down for george floyd. they're burning down because people here in minnesota are saying to people in new york, to people in california, to people in memphis, to people all across this nation, enough is enough.

>> that was the video that went viral in the week of george floyd's death and tamika joins us now, and author of "state of emergency: how we win the country we built." certainly not winning now. explain what your concept is on getting to the next level finally. >> thank you very much for having me this morning. in "state of emergency," i talk a lot about ways that people can join the movement. we know that since george floyd was killed and it was unfortunately immediately following a learning that breonna taylor was killed and then, of course, we watched the terrible video of ahmaud arbery and people were in the midst of a terrible pandemic in a terrible sense of despair and the video watching george floyd be murdered on tv, it literally

created ptsd for people all over the world. i think it made people stop and say what more can i do? how can i get involved? and i wrote this book and really tried to take some of what was in my speech and went viral may 26th and i tried to break it down in a way that a new activist, people who may have been in the work for a while but are looking for new and fresh ideas, that they would find in this book an opportunity to unite with others and to really get a fresh start on fighting in the ways in which we need to in order to obtain and receive racial justice in this country. >> eddie glaude, you have the next question. >> thank you so much for the book. you engage in this really

helpful explanation of defunding the police. can you elaborate, somehow explain the phrase as you describe the reform we need in criminal justice in this country? >> yes, that's the hot-button tommic. people when they hear the word defund, they definitely get very uncomfortable about it because we have been trained to call 911 for way too many issues. as far as i'm concerned, it puts police officers in danger when they're being called to deal with mental health crises and deal with other issues they are not trained to deal with. even if they had the training, it takes a certain level of care and certain level of life experience to be able to operate within communities and to deal with so much of the trauma that has been caused literally for over 400 years of oppression and issues we are dealing with. s what we know is in a place like new york city, the police

budget is about $6 billion. it's between $6 billion to $10 billion, depending on who you ask. but when you look at other services and other institutions, when you're talking about the health care industry, when you're looking at public housing and other very, very important areas of our community, and you put those budgets together, they do not equal the budget that our police officers are taking in, that the police have to work with within communities. and we know that does not work, because we still see incidents happening in communities that can be dealt with and addressed if we take more of the resources and create a balance. i think that's what folks are talking about. we're not talking about abolition in this moment. although there are some, and i certainly am an abolitionist and hope we can get to a day where we don't need floifrs with guns in our community.

i also understand that when people feel threatened, people feel there may be rapist or murderer or someone in the community, we want to have a number to call to address that. we should not though be calling the police to deal with a breakdown that someone is having in their home. tz only way to be able to deal with that is provide resources for other institutions to be able to do their work within communities as well. >> i came across this sentence in the text that really struck me. you say we are in the middle of a revolution in america. explain what you mean. also, i would say i love rule 15, be unashamed in your celebration of blackness as we fight for freedom. talk a little more about this claim we're in the middle of a revolution in america in your view. >> you certainly read the book, so i appreciate that. because you know the rules, which was a real cool part that i loved writing.

i think the revolution that we see is that people all over the world stood up for george floyd. i think the revolution that we see is the conversation that we're having today, the fact that my book actually is number one in several categories on amazon and barnes & nobles and other places, lets me know people are listening. they're paying attention. the revolution is happening and it's happening in different ways because what took place on january 6th at the capitol, it may not be the revolution we're looking for, it certainly snotz is not the one to get us to a place of racial equity, but what we know is those individuals who showed up for an irsurrecollection are people pushing back against what they are seeing in this nation. i talk about in my book that i think what terrifies black people, most black people, it's

not always a gun, it's not always some of the normal things we would think of, but a noose hanging outside of the capitol is something that terrifies people because we know what that means, we understand what it symbolizes. i think when you pick up "state of emergency," you get an tumt to understand what is happening in the mindset of those people who want to put back against the progress we're actually going to achieve. >> the book is "state of emergency: how we win in the country we built." tamika mallory, thank you. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi, there, i'm stephanie ruhle live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. mis-monday, may 17th, let's get smarter. this morning celebration is giving way to a whole lot of confusion. the cdc said