politics in the israeli community and the democratic party in general. >> "the washington post's" john hudson, thank you so much for being with us today. and just to put a finer point on that, president biden has so far managed to keep the left wing of the democratic party in his corner with some of his structure and domestic policies that were more progressive than many people expected. but it's a big question as to whether they're going to stick with him through this. that is a very difficult needle he'll have to thread domestically as he grapples with this foreign policy challenge. thank you so much for getting up way too early with us on this tuesday morning. don't go anywhere. "morning joe" starts right now. it's a confusing time when best buy has tougher health rules than the cdc. that's right, somehow cdc guidelines have become more confusing than a parking sign in new york city. can i stand here? no, you can stand here on tuesday. the director said that for the new guidelines to work, the cdc is asking americans to be honest about their vaccination status. really? people can't even tell the truth

on their tinder profiles. you're going to -- come on! it was a picture of me! >> i was literally in a best buy yesterday and, yes, it was very strict. mask guidelines may be getting more confusing, even as the pandemic shows signs of abating. for the first time, covid cases are down in all 50 states. now the biden administration is poised to send more vaccines overseas to countries that are desperate for them. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's monday, may 18th, along with joe, willie and me, we have chief white house correspondent for "the new york times," peter baker. white house correspondent for politico and co-author of "the playbook," eugene daniels. he's also an msnbc contributor. and former democratic congresswoman jane harman of california. she's a distinguished fellow and president at the wilson center and author of the new book,

"insanity defense: why our failure to confront hard national security problems makes us less safe" and what a really important place to start this morning. we'll get to much more on the changes to state mask guidelines in just a moment. but first, after a brief stoppage in fighting overnight, violence continues between israel and hamas. and now lebanon this morning. smoke, clouds, and flames could be seen rising from gaza buildings at sunrise following overnight attacks from israeli war planes. this while sirens blared through an israeli city near the gaza border, warning of a hamas rocket attack. the israeli military says close to 90 rockets were launched from gaza overnight, bringing the told to more than 3,300 since the conflict began last week. israeli forces also reported a shelling of lebanon last night

in retaliation for six rockets fired toward israel. tensions have been high at the israeli/lebanese border, where protesters have come out in support of the palestinians after a meeting with top defense officials, israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu said yesterday that israel would, quote, continue to strike terror targets for as long as necessary. gaza's health ministry says 212 people have been killed since air strikes began last week, including 61 children. israeli officials have reported ten deaths with two being children. willie? >> meanwhile, on a call with israeli prime minister netanyahu, the white house says president biden, quote, expressed support for a cease-fire. according to a white house readout of that call. the president, quote, reiterated his firm support for israel's right to defend itself while also, quote, encouraging israel to make every effort to ensure the protection of innocent

civilians. the carefully worded statement comes as a number of democrats urge the president to speak out more forcefully against israel. joining us now, longtime foreign correspondent, martin fletcher, who's reporting for nbc news in tel aviv. martin, good morning. what's the very latest from where you're sitting? >> hi, willie, good morning. it was a fairly quiet night in most of the area and it suddenly took off in the morning with israeli jet and war plane attacks on gaza, rockets from gaza into israel. you mentioned the new twist, if you would like, which is the fact that rockets were fired from lebanon towards israel is actually the second time that's happened. six rockets fired from lebanon towards israel. apparently, they all landed short and israel retaliated with artillery fire against the source of those rocket attacks. but the fear, of course, is that as long as there's no cease-fire, the greater the

possibility of the conflict spreading, lebanon being an obvious possibility of extra warfare here. so there's pressure building for a cease-fire, pressure also from the united states on israel. but my political sources here told me yesterday, it's pressure from america, but it's not what they call, quote, strong pressure. so israel seems to have the green light from the united states to continue knocking off those targets that it has in gaza, the tunnels, the homes, and offices of islamic military leaders in gaza. and at the moment, there's no sign that there's any real movement toward a cease-fire, from either side, willie. >> so, martin, joe scarborough here. in calls over the past several days, it seems diplomats in the region, also foreign policy leaders in this country keep quietly saying the same thing. we're focusing right now on hamas and on the missiles, but what israelis should be most

worried about is the civil unrest. arabs make up 20%, obviously of israel and the air rapp israelis and the israelis for the first time inside the country really experiencing flashpoints. can you talk about that and the long-term danger this poses for the nation of israel? >> absolutely, joe. look, as you indicate, this is the fifth round of fighting between hamas and israel in the last 15 years. so there's a certain cycle, presumably, they're, unfortunately, going to be more on both sides, than there'll be a cease-fire negotiatd of some kind and the conflict will go on hiatus until the next round. what is new, the fighting between israeli arabs and israeli jews. that is a very significant deterioration in relations inside a country that is extremely fragile, based on that -- on an easy relationship between jewss than arabs.

that is now falling apart. today, for instance, there's been a call for a general strike among arabs on the west bank and arabs inside israel. arabs are gathering on street corners, all over the area. there's been another terror attack foiled on the west bank. that's eight terror attacks foiled on the west bank in the last three days. so it's building up. and the possibility of putting that genie back in the bottle, if you would like, of arab unrest against israel. and not only arab unrest against israel, i have to point wut, it's also arab unrest against the arabs. these are basically mobs on both sides who are not fighting each other, mob against mob, it's both sides, beating them up and in some places killing them. one israeli jew who was severely beaten a few days ago, he died. that was one israeli beaten to death by a palestinian and palestinians have also been killed by israelis. so this is an extremely tense,

dangerous, volatile situation that is going to need some serious thought about how to make -- how to get jews back on the same page inside israel. this is being played out in the attempt to form a new government. prime minister netanyahu has gathered support from the right wing over the last several attempts to form governments. his fourth in two years, by whipping up discontent with the arabs. and the arabs feel disassociated from the country. this is not something that comes just from the violence in gaza now. it's something that's been building up for many years, whipped up by right-wing politicians in israel, and arabs feeling disenchanted, separated from the state, losing their role and also unsure of their position inside the country anymore. they're young, they're angry, they're hopeless because many don't have jobs. this is a very volatile situation. jews and arabs inside israel that does not bode well for the future. joe? >> thank you so much, nbc news's martin fletcher. we greatly appreciate it.

be safe. peter baker, right now, obviously, the situation continues to move in an ominous direction. most observers recognize this as a cynical play between hamas and the netanyahu government, who has been fomenting unrest, even inside the country between israeli jews and israeli arabs for his own political benefit, from trying to stop those coalitions from coming together. that said, there are coalitions in the united states that are concerning to joe biden and the administration. many people suggesting yesterday that the biden administration was far more careful in confronting netanyahu about these scenes of these dead children being taken out of buildings and trying to call a cease-fire, because he may not have the support in congress to back him up in standing up to these attacks and standing up to netanyahu.

>> yeah, the politics of this domestically for president biden are pretty fraught. they're pretty difficult to navigate. but the democratic party, while historically supportive of israel, has, you know, evolved over recent years to being much more divided between those who think that israel has gone too far and much more sympathetic to the palestinian cause versus those who have been traditionally israel's biggest supporters in the country. whereas on the other side, you have the republicans much more monolithically pro-israel these days than in the past. so, you know, for biden, then, every word, every statement, every move is, you know, dissected and analyzed and subject to criticism from one party or the other depending on how far he leans this way or that way. >> and, of course, over 3,000 hamas rockets being fired into israel. and it continues well into the second week.

the question is, how does biden tell netanyahu, how does he tell the israelis to stand down while those missiles continue going in to israel? >> well, he doesn't have a very warm relationship right now with prime minister netanyahu. they have had their differences in the past, back when president biden was the vice president and senate foreign relations chairman. obviously, prime minister netanyahu had a better friend, as he saw it, in president trump. and so there's been this sort of kind of frosty start to this particular administration. president biden didn't even speak with prime minister netanyahu for quite a while. he was not near the top of the list of the foreign leader calls he made when he came into office. and that was noced,f course, in jerusalem. so there isn't this sort of strong relationship there to begin with. but obviously, president biden, if he chooses to use him, has quite a few tools of leverage there. you know, america still remains a significant contributor of foreign aide to israel,

obviously, a security partner to israel. a lot of the equipment that the military uses has been provided for or supported by american aid. and if he chose to do it, president biden has that pressure to use. but again, partly because of the domestic pressures at home, he hasn't chosen to use it yet. he's trying, i think, to take a little bit of a, not hands off, but not completely hands on, you know, approach at this point. and we'll see where that leads. because as has been said before, obviously, americans don't have any kind of real contacts or connections with hamas, so we're playing on one side, even as we try to use intermediaries to maybe reach out to the gaza leadership there through, you know, the egyptians or the qataris or others. it's a complicated situation, biden should not be dealing with it, and so far he's taken a kind of relatively light approach to it. >> all right.

jane harman, this brings us to you. your book is, "why our failure to confront national security problems makes us less safe." does this fit the bill here? and what nuances should the united states be considering to really deal with this constructively? >> well, thank you for that, mika. and thank you for paving the way for the rest of us to right books, difficult, hard books. this is my first and maybe my last try. it was a hard thing to do. another hard problem. on this, i can think of a few things beyond what has been said already and here they are. number one, bibi netanyahu has two objectives. one is to survive political and stay out of jail. and he is doing it. he has scrabbled the effort by his opponents to form a new government. he was unable to do that after the fourth election. but now, the coalition against him is falling apart. so i predict israel will go to a fifth election and if he wins

that, i think everybody is exhausted, then he will stay out of jail. check that box. the other box is to thoroughly degrade hamas by destroying the tunnels. very tricky because they're under civilian buildings. and that's why the idea of going in on the ground was floated, because soldiers could go into the tunnels and blow them up. and this has been the way, let's be fair, that hamas has smuggled in rockets and material to attack israel. and i assume those rocks are coming from iran, something that he's talking about. so that's one thing. the second thing is hezbollah on the lebanese border. i've seen that movie. i was there. everyone thought we were crazy and the missiles were going overhead and there we were. but at any rate, 100,000 plus missiles with precision-guided munitions, meaning they can hit their targets and they're hidden under, again, civilian buildings. the lebanese are shields. and so all of this could be a

bigger catastrophe than we're already talking about. and it's very tricky for everybody to navigate. >> jane, you've studied this problem very closely. you were the ranking member on the house intel committee. you worked with presidents, you've spent a lot of time abroad in the middle east. how is it different now in your analysis than perhaps it was when you were working the problem in the '90s and in the 2000s, after 9/11, even? what does it look like to you? and is it more intractable today than it was even then? >> i would say it's more intractable, sadly. social media -- chapter 7 in my book is called the incredible disappearing congress -- the incredible shrinking congress. congress is so much less of a factor. it's the far left, the far right, and no middle. and congress used to speak more or less with one voice on foreign policy, which has hobbled us, in addition. and i would say that the third thing is, the problems are just the breakdown of the nuclear

deal with iran, which i thought was sad, i thought president trump stated it and made it stronger. the worry about afghanistan. i support the biden administration changing our mission. not leaving afghanistan, but getting our troops out. but this thing, the emergence of new abraham accords. mahmoud abbas not having any real power over hamas. i would guess in his secret heart, he's happy to have hamas degraded. and all of these factors just make solving this problem much harder. >> eugene daniels, on the concept of congress speaking in one voice about this, what impact could that have? >> it's so hard seeing them getting to that one voice on this. and it's been said that the left and the democrats have a different conversations than the republicans are. on the republican side, it feels

very much like years past, where any kind of support for palestinian is a third rail. it's a no-no. on the left, with democrats, that is not the case anymore, right? you are seeing people come to the house floor, speaking with such passion against israel in a way that you haven't in such a long time. so biden is dealing with this party and its own dynamics and changing dynamics on the issue. and i think that's part of the reason why you're already seeing kind of, if not waffle welcome the kind of soft-touch diplomacy and conversations that he's doing, they want him to be doing more. and he knows that with israel being one of the -- one of our strongest allies in the middle east, how much money we give them. there are people who say, yeah, well, we should be using all of that aide as some kind of leverage. and that is something you would not have heard any politician in congress say a long time ago.

this is a white house that foreign policy wise, they wanted to concentrate on china. they wanted to focus on russia. so dealing with this right now kind of so early on in the administration is something i don't think they were expecting. so they're trying to figure out and navigate what the changing dynamics in congress, because that is just the dynamics have changed in congress, that doesn't mean they've changed elsewhere, right? so that is how whether issues really, really lie. all right. still ahead on "morning joe," the biden administration ramps up coronavirus vaccine diplomacy, promising to send another 20 million doses overseas. plus, the president is hitting the road to michigan in an effort to promote his infrastructure plan as republicans prepare another counter offer. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. [sfx: thunder rumbles] [sfx: rainstorm]

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a major shift in the guides on how to protect yourself through all of this. the cdc now saying that people should use cloth face coverings when going outside. >> the federal government is now recommending americans wear non-surgical masks or a face covering in public. >> president trump says he is not going to wear a mask, despite the cdc's new recommendation that americans should do it. >> i think wearing a face mask as i greet presidents, prime ministers, dictators, kings, queens, i don't know. somehow, i don't see it for myself. >> i've had one on before. i wore one in this back area, but i didn't want to give the president the pleasure of seeing it. >> there are a lot of people that think that masks are not good. and there are a lot of people, of example -- >> who are those people? >> i'll tell you who those people are. waiters. >> i wish he would stop talking and let the scientists speak. i don't walk out of this house without a mask on. >> let the president start by sending that signal, very simply, just wear the mask.

>> the president didn't take it seriously, mcconnell has not taken it serious -- but we can stop this if we follow the science. >> you see, willie, where trump was saying -- or, mika, where trump was saying, oh, it just doesn't make sense for presidents, prime ministers, dictators -- >> wannabe dictators -- >> dictators in waiting -- >> yeah. >> just insanity. insanity. so, yeah -- >> that was then. >> but yeah, joe biden and democrats are saying, follow the science. and i couldn't agree anymore. follow the science and what the cdc says. >> yes. and that is what most democratic leaders were saying a year ago when it came to listening to the cdc, in terms of wearing a mask. but now, there's this inconsistency in which states are allowing for the new cdc guidelines for fully vaccinated

people to stop wearing masks. it's confusing. president joe biden yesterday announced that for the first time covid cases are down in all 50 states and 60% of americans have received at least one vaccine dose, which is amazing news. but new jersey governor phil murphy says it's too soon to drop his state's indoor public mask rules. new jersey will continue to require all people vaccinated or not, to keep wearing masks indoors in public, making it the only state in the northeast not to adopt the new cdc mask guidance. governor murphy says the state is just not ready. >> we've been clobbered, not once, but twice. we've lost over 26,000 people. we know the virus is more lethal indoors. and you're asking somebody who's at the hardware store, working there, or in a retail or a grocery store, to make the

judgment on who's vaccinated and who's not. we're not there yet. we're close. >> but, willie, this is your home state, willie. 434 cases in the entire state last week. those cases have continued to decline. the cdc guidance says that if you're vaccinated, you don't have to wear a mask indoors. the cdc director saying, hey, it's time to go back to living normal, the way you did before. and scott gottlieb saying, hey, if we don't lift these mask mandates now, when we're having a break, we're not going to have the credibility to reinstitute them in the fall, if there is a spike, and we do need them reimplemented, but there's not a spike. over 60% of americans have at least one vaccination. you know, it's -- i guess it's easy to complain from the cheap

seats here, but it just -- follow the science. i mean, if we're telling governors to follow the cdc for a year when donald trump's president of the united states, shouldn't they follow the cdc guidance when joe biden is president of the united states? >> absolutely. and actually, in the state of new jersey, almost 70% or maybe it's pushed over a little since i last look, 70% of adults in new jersey have at least one dose of the vaccine. so you're getting up into where we heard about herd immunity numbers several months ago. and what's also interesting is new jersey has acted sort of in concert with new york, pennsylvania, and connecticut over this last year or so. they've been taking their cues from each other because the numbers were so bad here. new york announced starting tomorrow, it will follow the cdc guidelines, take off the mask. pennsylvania did it a long time ago. new jersey did it a long time ago. the numbers in new jersey are

pretty good and this is a curious move by governor murphy. he's not working with governor cuomo or lamont in connecticut anymore on this. he's looking and saying, i don't think we're out of the woods. but if you look at the numbers, if this isn't out of the woods, it's hard to see where it would be. and i'll just say, joe, good luck getting people to wear masks through memorial day weekend at the jersey shore. i think this just isn't going to hold up. >> and mika, the thing is, and mika, you and i may have a difference of opinion here, but again, there are two things i think that public health officials need to be concerned about. one of them is, again, the vaccination rate. boy, we should all wish we were doing as well as new jersey. if we could get that 60% over 70% like new jersey, we are moving towards herd immunity. that's the first thing. the second thing is mental health. i have been talking about it for

over a month. we have got this country going again and back to normal. we were saying it several months ago when anthony fauci said, get the kids back in school. that's the top priority. now the cdc is saying, go back to living your normal life. this is needed for a lot of reasons. we can talk about businesses and restaurants and family businesses that have been absolutely shattered by this, but we have to talk about mental health. we have to have a return to normalcy. when the cdc is saying, return to normal and vaccinations are skyrocketing up over 60%, we need to return to normal for so many reasons. >> i hear everything you're saying and i do thin, though, there are some pockets of the country who may not be ready. i'm here in washington. in many ways, i'm here doing "know your value" interviews, and i'm working with a team here and there is one person on the team who is not vaccinated. i'm wearing a mask around that

person. it is, really, if you want to follow the science, there are times you need to still wear the mask. and that's where i think it gets really confusing as we try to move forward as a country and put this pandemic behind us. the other thing is, this pandemic is not behind us globally. and that means that we could run into problems again. you never know. if you're looking at the science and breakthrough cases and other strains, it's not completely behind us. and that's why this could be very confusing along the way. some states are following more slowly. in california, those who are fully vaccinated will be able to go indoors without a mask starting on june 15th. state officials are delaying the move by a month to get vaccination rates higher and businesses more time to figure out how to verify whether people are, in fact, vaccinated. and until june 15th, masks are still required indoors. fully vaccinated vigilance do not have to wear masks outdoors,

except in crowded settings. in massachusetts, fenway park and td garden will reopen with no capacity restrictions starting on may 29th. the move coincides with governor charlie baker's announcement that the state is on track to vaccinate over 4 million residents by the first week of june. fenway park seats, over 37,000 fans when sold out. and as willie said, new york governor andrew cuomo announced that tomorrow new york will adopt the cdc's new mask and social distancing guidance for fully vaccinated residents. masks will still be required on public transit, in nursing homes, schools, and health care facilities across the state. private venues can still impose additional mask rules as they see fit. despite the new mask rules going into effect tomorrow for new

york state, "morning joe" chief medical correspondent dr. dave campbell found that many fully vaccinated new yorkers are reluctant to give up the mask, even outdoors, and city officials are fine with letting people go at their own pace. >> the tricky part is you don't know who has vaccinated and who hasn't. >> it's going to take a while. i think it took a while for people to get comfortable wearing masks. >> working here at the farmers market, i had a couple experiences of people coming up unmasked. it was a little shocking. we need to take our time to come out of this. >> are people going to trust each other in your restaurant? >> i don't think so. someone walks in without a mask claiming they're vaccinated, how do you know? >> ever since i got vaccinated, i don't feel the pressure to wear a mask outside anymore, especially since the cdc said vaccinated individuals don't need to wear mask, but this is confusing, because you don't know who's vaccinated and who's not. >> i'll tend to keep it on for

others' sake, but also my sake. >> personally, i'm a lot more comfortable when i'm out in big public groups when i'm wearing a mask. >> i'm trusting science and hoping things really work out for the best at the end of the year. >> i have the vaccine, but maybe somebody else doesn't have it. and it's a good incentive. >> i'm a little bit scary, actually, because i had -- i'm fully vaccinated, and i see the news about the young kids, sports team, had an outbreak, even though they got the vaccine. i was a little bit scared. >> we spoke to the health commissioner and the mayor to bring clarity to new yorkers during this transitional time. >> even though i know that i have protection because i'm fully vaccinated, there are some settings where it will be harder for me to shed, you know, the habit of wearing my mask. i think we have to allow people to move at their own pace, because there is the rationale science part of this, but there's also just the very human side of people making their way through the challenges that

we've been through over the last few months. >> reporter: there are a lot of younger people that i talk to throughout my day-to-day activities at home, they're still a little hesitant. >> i think the cdc sent a powerful message that said, if you are vaccinated, you can start to act differently, particularly outside. but with the clear boundaries if you're in a hospital setting, a nursing home, a school. people that places are tightly packed, mass transit, it's still smart to have the mask on. i think that's common sense. but remember, it's if you are vaccinated, you get more freedom. if you aren't vaccinated, you have to deal with those risks, still. >> do i want to wear a mask on the subway and transportation for the rest of my life? yes. >> if it's dense areas, i feel comfortable, even though i'm vaccinated, i'm still personally comfortable keeping it on. >> what are the political issues at play right now as it relates to masks and vaccinations that you're a part of? >> i think we've got to start with the cdc. the cdc was constrained and

politicized by trump. it has now been professionalized by biden. it's actual doctors saying what they think makes sense. when you're dealing with a global pandemic, your national government is supposed to lead the way. we didn't have that in the previous administration. we have it now. the cdc saying, now is the time. and i really respect that. they did it based on the data and the science. i believe in the cdc, today's cdc. i think the vast majority of my fellow democrats do, as well. yet, all life is lived locally. i respect anyone who says, we want to take a lit moretime. we want to be a little more cautious. anyone who still wants to be careful and cautious, we've got to show them the respect. let them take their time to get to the point where they need to be more comfortable. i think that's only fair. >> i mean, i'm looking at this, great job by dr. dave, as usual. a lot of masks outside in new york city. a lot of masks. and here's -- i'm with bill de blasio here. everybody needs to go at their own pace.

that's fine. but states and localities, they need to follow the cdc and lift the mask mandates. but, you know, willie, this is just like so many other things. people have forgotten how to be courteous with other people. you know, i still carry a mask around. i don't wear it inside. maybe things are going to get really crowded. but if i see somebody inside wearing a mask and i get close to them, i'll put it on, not for me, but to make them feel more comfortable. we can do things like that. we can make that decision to be courteous. but again, i hate to sound like a broken record. but if you're going to follow mask -- if you're going to follow the cdc guidelines and if we're going to lecture trump for a year that he needs to follow cdc guidelines, well, these governors were attacking trump for a year need to follow cdc guidelines. and the thought that new jersey is still shut down with over 70% vaccination rate and their cases plummeting, the fact that

california is not going to lift their man dates for another month after the cdc said, go back to living normal, i don't know. i don't know what that is. maybe that's virtue signaling. there certainly was virtue signaling from the other side, trashing mask stands and things like that. oh, dear lord. but whatever it is, again, people, live and let live. whatever they want to do is fine. but these government entities, from new jersey to california, they need to follow the science. they need to follow the cdc. >> and the explanation has just been, it doesn't feel right, yet. we've been struck before, we've been burned before, but you've got to look at the science. you have to look at the evidence, as you're saying, and as the cdc told us last week about whether or not it's safe. i go out and run in new york city almost every day. beautiful day in central park, it's a beautiful week here. i do see fewer and fewer masks outside. just yesterday, not a ton of masks. some people have them. and again, if you get close to somebody, you're in tight

quarters, you put on your mask, out of basic respect and basic courtesy for someone else. and again, we should point out that businesses, whether it's best buy and costco and a restaurant or a hardware store, they have a right to have a policy that says, look, if you want to come in here for now, you have to have a mask. that's their right. but what we're talking about is the state-level guidance. and it is important to point out that new jersey, in this area, anyway, stands alone. that new york has moved on, that pennsylvania and connecticut have moved on, based on the numbers, based on the science, which aren't all that different from the state of new jersey. and peter baker, this announcement yesterday from the cdc in many ways actually caught the white house offguard. and we've seen some fumbling even at the top of the cdc about what exactly they mean when they say, you can take off the mask. dr. walensky took a step back a couple of days ago and said, this doesn't mean people should go inside and rip their masks off, and everyone said, wait, i thought that was exactly what it meant, as long as i was

vaccinated. so how is the white house managing this flow of information and this guidance from the federal level down to the states? >> yeah, they were caught offguard by this. a number of white house officials didn't even know it was coming until the public announcement of it, basically. but you're seeing, i think, the white house is still struggling to make sure itself is sending the right signal. the president has begun taking his mask off in order to say, he's following the cdc guidelines. they have now sent out a message to white house staff, changing the rules inside the west wing, you know, for months, basically, this biden team has been sitting in its offices, inside the white house, meeting with each other through zoom. you know, not allowed to actually be in each other's presence for more than a small amount of time. so they're trying to now adjust their own rules in order to send a message to the rest of the country that we are beginning to move on. it is a confused time. it's a confused time, obviously. we're in this interim period between when the pandemic was at its worst and when it will fade

even further, when we don't know which store we can go into, which city has which rule, which state has which rule, when you travel, what does that mean? it's kind of a muddle. and the federal government and the white house haven't provided consistent-enough message to, i think, get through to many people. and as you say, because different states are going to take different actions, that doesn't help them. this may be a little bit like asia, though. if anybody has traveled to asia in recent years, we'll see that a lot of people there wear masks long after sars went away. that that became kind of a permanent cultural change for a lot of people in asia, just to simply wear masks in public, even when there wasn't a particular outbreak at the moment. and it may be that we see a little of that here in the united states, or at least pockets of the united states where masks become kind of a perennial thing even without a particular health risk at the moment. and if you wear a mask, that might be preventative for other kinds of illnesses. look how much flu has gone down in the last year. look how much other diseases,

communicable diseases have been stemmed by wearing a mask. it wouldn't be surprising to see masks become a part of the american ethos for a while. >> and that should be up to individuals to make that decision, what they want to do. live their lives the way they want to live their lives. if we've moved past cdc guidelines and they want to wear a mask still, that's up to them. and as willie said, if small businesses, if restaurants want to still require masks, i'll be honest with you, that's a pain, but that's up to them to make that business decision for themselves. it's the government entities, though, that need to follow cdc guidelines. jane, you know, california, you're a californian. boy, that is a state that's had a tale of about three or four pandemics, right after the pandemic began last spring, they seemed to be doing better than everybody else, then the numbers

exploded and it's gone back and forth. now they're talking about waiting another month before following cdc guidelines. what are your thoughts? >> well, i was in california for the worst of it, over christmastime and about six months before and it was very difficult to see my own grandchildren and so so forth. and there's a homeless problem on top of it. my thoughts are kind of like mika's, that this is going to be and needs to be a gradual reentry. and let's point something else out, joe. it's not just in the u.s. i know rates are going down somewhat in all 50 states. that's great news. but let's think about the world and let's think about travel to the u.s. from the world and the opportunity we have using pandemic diplomacy, which is a pillar of the new biden foreign policy, which i strongly support, to help the rest of the world with our vaccines and our logistics and our other technology. and if we don't do that, we've

missed an opportunity to reinengage in a way that joe biden wants to. >> so, eugene, what stories are you covering today? what are you expecting to happen on the hill? >> well, first, you have infrastructure, right? you have mayor pete meeting with -- excuse me, secretary pete -- i called him mayor pete for so long. secretary pete buttigieg meeting with some republicans. and what we're expecting is finally to see what their kind of final go at this on the republican side. there's been negotiations back and forth about what stays, what goes. and it's, i am shocked that i'm even saying this, it's possible that there actually may be a bipartisan deal that could pass. because you have republicans who have in this $600 to $800 billion range of what they've been talking about. but you have what was in the original plan from the white house on the hard

infrastructure, right, the roads, the bridges, those kind of things, kind of being around the same amount when you boil down that plan that president biden released and has been talking about it. that aspect is a lot more interesting. that's something that people should keep an eye on, because that conversation, that was at one point trillions of dollars and could be billions. but what that means is that the white house and this administration are also going to have to have some more conversations within their own party about the social infrastructure, the care infrastructure, that they've been talking about, something that they're most likely going to have to do without any kind of republican votes at all, if they were actually to get some of that done. there's a lot moving in that direction, as well as everyone else that everyone has been talking about today. >> all right. eugene daniels, peter baker, and former congresswoman jane harman, thank you very much for being on this morning. jane's new book is "insanity defense: why our failure to

confront hard national security problems makes us less safe." and jane, congratulations on that. and to some business headlines now. nearly three years after at&t rattled the entertainment business by merger with time warner, the telecommunications company is doing it again. yesterday, at&t announced it will spin off warner media and combine it with discovery communications, the deal would create a new company valued at over $150 billion, including debt, making it the second largest media company by revenue. it still needs to be approved by regulators. if approved, the deal is expected to close in the middle of 2022. this morning, lamborghini announced plans to transition to a fully electric car by 2030. the company says it will produce hybrid vehicles over the next decade as it makes that transition.

lamborghini hopes to reduce its co2 emissions by 50% by the beginning of 2025. >> by the way -- >> by the way, joe? >> yeah, willie geist, this is great news for donny deutsch, now as he flies around in the hamptons going 95 miles an hour, through corn fields. he can feel socially conscious that it's going to be in an electric vehicle. maybe he moves away from the powder blue vehicle that has in script on the side, dd. but still, this is a good move for the environment and may even be good news for the people of east hampton. >> as i listened to that story, this is important news you can use for 14 people on earth who have lamborghinis. you know what else donny does, he puts a car seat with a baby doll in it, so he looks like a loving father, but the problem is, he puts it in shotgun of the

lambo when he's driving through east hampton. >> next to a dog in the backseat and he has a pink one, a barbie lamborghini with bling. but he can add the electric to his fleet. >> i did not know until i met donny that there's actually a service where you can rent out children and walk them around to try to attract other people, to seem like a more loving and sensitive parent. maybe that's a new york thing, i don't know. >> double strollers. >> he doesn't need to rent them. the conservative social networking site parlor is back in the apple app store with a new ceo. the company named prominent uk conservative george farmer its chief executive as it works to rebuild its reputation after the january 6th capitol riot. parler executives say new

guidelines have been instilled. that's responsible, i hope. >> well, i mean, so let me ask, does that also apply, willie, to facebook? will facebook now take that same guideline and stop being used to promote crimes? >> and lies. >> you look at the insurrection, you look at the assassination of the federal agent by a white ring extremist in oakland during the black lives matter protests, in both cases, it was facebook that pushed a lot of people to those sites. >> this was front and center the last couple of weeks with that decision from that advisory panel about whether or not president trump should remain suspended six more months and then they kick it back to facebook. so we'll see then if facebook makes a policy about what can and cannot exist on its sight. but so far, not much from the

top there. >> i mean, really, we're still waiting? they're pathetic. coming up, the latest on the charade of a recount in arizona that has grown so farcical, many republicans are now calling it out. that conversation is straight ahead on "morning joe." that con ahead on "morning joe. when traders tell us how to make thinkorswim even better, we listen. like jack. he wanted a streamlined version he could access anywhere, no download necessary. and kim. she wanted to execute a pre-set trade strategy in seconds. so we gave 'em thinkorswim web. because platforms this innovative, aren't just made for traders—they're made by them. thinkorswim trading. from td ameritrade. you love rich, delicious ice cream. but your stomach doesn't. well, that disagreement ends right now.

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welcome back to "morning joe." turning back to the violence between israel and hamas as smoke, clouds, and flames can be seen rising from gaza at sunrise following overnight strikes from israeli war planes. this as sirens blared through an israeli city near the border with gaza, warning of a hamas rocket attack. the israeli military says close to 90 rockets were launched from gaza overnight, bringing the total to more than 3,300 since the conflict began last week. joining us now, associate editor at "commentary" magazine and msnbc contributor, noah rothman.

also with us, contributing writer for "the atlantic," shadi hamid, whose latest article is entitled, "don't take the narrow view of what's happening in gaza," where shadi talks about the underlying context of the current violence between israel and hamas. good morning to you both. shadi, let me begin with you. we know that for the first time yesterday in a phone call, president biden used the word cease-fire, at least sort of tepidly backing that idea with president netanyahu of israel. -- excuse me, prime minister netanyahu. he says, i can't stop this conflict until hamas starts shooting rockets -- stops shooting rockets into my country. so what does a cease-fire look? what are the terms under which that would even be possible? >> you're exactly right that biden hasn't been very forceful on this. he hasn't called for an immediate cease-fire. he says he generally supports it, but what we're seeing is that there isn't very strong

language on this. and that leads to some confusion on what the u.s. actually wants. and some speculation that the u.s. wants to give israel more time to degrade hamas more aggressively and to accomplish more of their gains. in terms of what a cease-fire would actually look like, at some point, someone is going to have to stop. so either israel decides to stop escalating its bombing campaign or hamas will have to stop launching rockets. and then this is where it becomes complicated, because it's a cycle where no one wants to back down first, because then they're losing face, and it seems like they're not the ones dominating the situation. so that makes it very hard to kind of untangle the motivations of both actors. and that's why ultimately, there has to be international pressure. without the u.s., which is the most relevant party here, the party that has the most leverage

with the israeli government, this isn't going to happen to. we don't have any direct relations with them, because they are a terrorist organization. when we're looking at what the u.s. can do, there's only one clear option there, which is to impress in stronger terms to our israeli allies, this is going too far, we have over 200 palestinians killed. over half of them are women and children, which i think calls into question the israeli claim that this is precise targeting. it isn't really that precise if that many children are being caught in the cross fire. >> noah, which is the end game for israel? this is a cycle of violence and it's a cycle of violence that seems to occur every five, six years. and it seems that more palestinians are of course, disproportionately killed, but also, for israel's internal

security itself, there's a growing divide between arab israelis and jewish israelis. arab israelis, they'll make up 20% of the population and we're starting to see those tensions be enflamed when before this war began, you actually saw some coalition that seemed to bring some hope to easing some of those tensions. so what's the cost to israel for these attacks and what is israel's end game here? >> well, the cost israel is the unfortunate risk of a deteriorating relationship with the united states. driven in part by a misconception on the part of democrats. the assumption is that there is increased an tipthy among

voters. i have yet to find a poll that supports that. democrats are still supportive of israel and this administration would do well and is doing well to adhere to those views. frankly, israel is in a difficult position, in dealing with two respective, distinct governments in the west bank and gaza. these are not a single united palestinian territory. and in gaza, you have as was just said, a terrorist organization which conducts operations with the intention of inflicting as many civilian casualties as it can. we cannot believe the statistics from gaza's health ministry, because so many of the missiles that are unguided and launched from gaza land within its own territory. and also because hamas shields these missile miss civilian areas with the intent of drawing fire on those territories. >> noah, i know all of that. anybody who follows this for

some time knows you have two governments in the palestinian territory, one of them is corrupt and is going on the 17th year of a four-year tomorrow and the other is a terrorist organization that still wants to drive israel into the sea. and they still are targeting missiles purposefully in civilian areas, hoping to kill israeli civilians. we got that. but how does this help israel. images of children being pulled from rubble. images of elderly people being pulled from rubble. they're never going to be able to stop hamas' ability to fire missiles until there is some sort of global peace agreement. in the short-term and the long-term, are the -- are the costs to the palestinian people and to israel and the israeli people and to israel's reputation globally, are the costs worth whatever minuscule gains they may achieve

strategically? >> the sea change that occurred in the political landscape in the middle east over the course of the administration with the abraham accords suggests that the risk and rewards associated with conflict in this region, the balance has changed dramatically. the dogs that are not barking in the sunni capitols and the lethargic response you're hearing from the sunni states represent a very different geopolitical environment from israel's perspective. one that is far more favorable. palestine has lost a lot of its sponsors, particularly west bank has lost a lot of its sponsors in these states. and are more aligned with iran, which is functioning as sort of a self-perpetuating situation. states like saudi arabia and other sunni states, the uae, are gravitating -- and in egypt, are gravitating more towards the situation and it's creating a self-perpetuating condition in which iran and the palestinian and hamas and the west bank are linked. and that is generally creating a

thaw in relations in this region for israel. so, yes, israel is in a far better position and palestinians are woefully underserved as a result of their government's adherence to defunct ideas about how this environment operates. >> shadi, it may be true that the sunni/arab governments fear iran and israel and that was the case even before the trump administration came into power and something that we said on this show repeatedly in 2014, 2015, going into 2016. the abraham accords are positive in many respects, but we still don't have an intermediary among the palestinian people when something like this breaks out. and while sunni arabs and their leaders might be a bit more quiet now than they were in 2014, certainly our allies in europe and across the world are horrified by the images. and when those bombs drop on the palestinian people, they're

looking at as israeli bombs funded by the united states of america. so what is the impact on the united states, diplomatically, globally, anytime netanyahu decides to do this? >> sunni/arab regimes don't actually care about palestinians. they care about regime survival. and these aren't democratic countries that are responsive to the popular anger about what israel is doing. that's the first thing. and you're exactly right that the u.s. is going to be tied to whatever israel continues to do. so the longer this goes on, for days or perhaps even weeks, the last war lasted seven weeks, that puts us as americans in a very challenging position. we have to justify what looks like to a lot of people as indefensible behavior. when a 15-story apartment building is blown up and even some of these buildings that house journalistic outlets to get one hamas operative or one hamas, you know, one hamas

headquarter -- then, you have to ask yourself, is that proportionate when you're destroying entire apartment blocks? and that's going to continue being the question that we're going to have to answer for better or for worse. and i think the other issue, too, is, we're not really talking about how this all started. if we're taking, as i said, in my atlantic piece, we're taking a narrow view and looking at this as hamas versus israel. but the proximate cause of this violence, of this outbreak has actually been building up for many months now, in east jerusalem, and last monday, what happened is that there was a pretty heavy-handed police raid at al aqsa mosque, which is the third holiest site in islam. 300,000 demonstrators were injured. and you saw rubber bullets and stun grenades. and that's where this really started to escalate and get out of control. we have to ask ourselves, when we're looking at this in, when hopefully the cease-fire comes,

you know, it's not always a popular word, but sometimes enough to look at the root causes of a conflict, so you can prevent the conflict from recurring in the future. after the fact, we try to analyze and say, what led to this outcome and how can we address the origins of the conflict and what's driving there violence in the first place? >> can we address the proximate cause, very briefly, because it is extremely important. the episode that precipitated this uprising in east jerusalem is a property dispute, which is being adjudicated by two private parties in court. which was not allowed to conclude. the hearings were dismissed and marches were canceled. preventatively by the people who were engaging in this uprising and this violence. it just happens to coincide with, joe, with as you said, the canceling of yet another set of elections in the west bank. you have to make some

conclusions about who precisely is welcoming of this sort of violence. >> all right -- >> well, of course, those cases are going to be heard in israeli courts and we can have a debate on another day whether palestinians are ever going to get a fair shake in palestinian courts, especially on property disputes in east jerusalem. also, that doesn't justify firing weapons into the third holiest site in islam. i would really, really like to know what security force made that decision and on whose orders they made that decision. again, i have said it my entire adult life, israel has a right to defend itself. israel is surrounded by countries and entities that want to drive them into the sea that supported nazis during world war ii. it is existential. there are israelis whose grandparents were marched into

ovens and killed. this is all very understandable that the israelis take the firm stand that they have taken since 1948. but in a situation like this, when you are firing into the third holiest site in islam, you are provoking a response that you -- i find it hard to believe that you don't know you're going to get. they got that response and here we are, two tragic weeks later. >> yeah. it is a really difficult conversation, for sure, and we are just about six minutes past the top of the hour, but worth it, digging into these really tough issues here on this show. shadi hamid and noah rothman, thank you both very much. we're going to turn now to domestic politics, where former president trump will headline north carolina's state republican convention next month. trump is expected to make public

speech at the june 5th event. the speech will be closed to the media. north carolina has a pivotal senate race next year to replace retiring gop senator richard burr. burr was one of the seven republicans who voted to beach trump for his role in the january 6th capitol insurrection. meanwhile, asa hutchinson laid into president trump for his role in the ousting of congresswoman liz cheney from her gop leadership position. >> the fact is, everyone in america sees this as a punitive measure for someone speaking their conscience, and that's not good. secondly, it looks like the former president is directing who can serve in leadership and that's not good. you know, we have many voicing in the republican party. i compare it to "the view."

you have multiple voices representing "the view." there's multiple voices that represent the republican party today and we should not de facto make the former president as the guardian of our party or the leader of our party. >> our next guest has pushed back forcefully on former president trump's lies about election fraud in georgia. georgia's republican lieutenant governor, geoff duncan joins us now. who has said he is not running for re-election. in announcing his decision, duncan said, quote, it always feels coldest right before the sun rises. i believe that is the exact moment in time the republican party is caught in right now and i am committed to being part of creating those better days ahead for our conservative party all across the country. sir, thank you very much for being on with us this morning. also with us, we have nbc news capitol hill correspondent and

host of "way too early," kasie hunt, and mark leibovich. joe? >> well, lieutenant governor, there's also another say, chairman mao's saying that john mccain loved to quote, it's always darkest right before the lights go completely out. and there are a lot of republicans who feel like that's where the party is. liz cheney kicked out of last week of her leadership role. you've made the wise decision not to run for re-election, because you told the truth and told the truth about math, about vote counts, about elections. how does the republican party -- where does its revival come from when you look at these polls that show 80% of americans that show that they're glad liz cheney got run off office, and two out of three republicans still think because they read conspiracy websites or facebook

posts that the election was stolen? >> well, there's no way to ignore the fact that there is a vacuum of leadership inside the gop right now. and we're either going to ignore it or fix it. and i've decided to be a part of the team that's going to fix it. we're launching gop 2.0, which isn't a new party, but a safe place for conservative republicans to call home. and republicans all over the country should be outraged about republican efforts, liz cheney and andrew clyde making outrageous comments on his role in the house instead of talking about increasing inflation rates and global conflicts and cyber hacks on pipelines. pipelines. these are real issues. >> so, lieutenant governor, can you tell me at what point you realized in your political

career, because i've been doing this since '94, and when i was in office, actually, ideas mattered, being conservative mattered, fighting for balanced budgets mattered. fighting for a strong national defense mattered. we were driven by the issues and that's why we got re-elected. at what point did those conservative issues stop mattering more to rank and file matters more than whether you were part of a personality cult and you pledged fealty to a former reality tv host? when did that happen? >> i think it happened over time, but when we started worrying more about a person than a party, that's how we got here. and look, we've got four years to try to get this right. and for me, i believe, the majority of americans believe republicans are best to be in charge of the economy and national security and we should never leave a meeting without reminding everyone why we're good at that.

and that's where we difficulted away from. this doesn't need to be a personality contest. this needs to be a policy over politics platform, where we go to work every day and try to solve real problems for real people. >> so let me ask you a personal question. i've got -- i'm surrounded -- i live in an area where almost everybody in my neighborhood is a trump supporter. all my friends from childhood are trump supporters. my family members are trump supporters. and we usually get by by not talking politics -- or not talk about politics. they know -- i mean, this is the crazy thing, they know, in many ways, i'm more conservative than they are on a lot of issues. but trump comes up and we can't have that conversation. but when we do, i am stunned by the conspiracy theories that these friends of mine and family members of mine with advanced

degrees buy into. from deranged conspiracy websites. how do you deal with that and how do you deal with the fact that the people who helped elect you, because you promised to be conservative, are now supporting a guy who doesn't have a conservative bone in his body? how are you coming to terms to that and how do you deal with your friends and family members? >> i have an instant solution. if former president trump got up to a microphone and denounced all the conspiracy theories and fraud and talked about a better day forward for the republican party, it would change in an instant. but i don't see that. over the next four years, the majority of republicans will come back into the fold of a gop 2.0 mind-set, for different reasons. some will get there because they 100% believe in new strategy. some are going to partially believe, and some will just get tired of losing. the hole that donald trump dug for us republicans will show up in almost every political race from coast-to-coast. mayor's races, city council

races, congressional races, and certainly, in the next presidential race. we've got a lot of work to do, but, look, i think voters will start waking up and wanting to vote for an adult in the room. they're not going to look so much to the personality, they just want an adult. somebody that will look them right in the office and give them an honest truth and give them an honest vision ahead for the great country in the world. >> mr. lieutenant governor, it's willie geist, great to have you on the show. there's a group of y'all down there in georgia, brad raffensperger and gabe sterling as well who from the beginning of this have stood in the door of democracy at your own political peril and said, no, here's what happened in the state of georgia, it was a clean election, we counted, recounted and recounted again and joe biden won here. by a narrow margin, but he did win in the state of georgia. what has that been like for you as a republican not just in georgia, but nationally, for

just have plainly spoken the truth and received all the criticism you've received from other republicans and from trump supporters? >> certainly, the last six months for me and my family have been something that is almost undescribable, but this is a moment in time where we're either going to run from the problem or run toward the problem. the problem is that there's a vacuum of leadership. and i'm proud of secretary of state raffensperger, i'm proud of the leadership of governor kemp, but we've got a problem here and we've got to address this. and we've got a very short window of time to get to it. i'm going to head to d.c. tomorrow. i'm going to start meeting with folks all over the country. i'm going to start really trying to build out this organization, gop 2.0, and really try to get ahead of this curve. the work is hard, i get it. but i'm encouraged at this. look, we need a safe place for republicans that are common sense conservative republicans, to have a place to call home, so they don't have to walk in and feel defensive when they stand around the water cooler or at their church or in their neighborhoods. i'm proud to be a republican. i'm proud of my republican

conservative principles, but i want to be proud of the leaders that represent us. >> so what gives you, lieutenant governor, the hope that there is another way here? because it certainly looks from the outside to most people like you're outnumbered. liz cheney, adam kinzinger, mitt romney, they look outnumbered, at least in washington. what gives you hope as you talk to people in the state of georgia that they do want another place to call home? >> well, as was read earlier, my quote, it normally feels the coldest just before the sun rises and that's where we are right now. too much of what we're listening to is the outside 5% on both sides. there's a silent majority that wants an adult in the room that makes common sense decisions for real-world problems. if we're going to grow this republican party, we need to do it with policy, empathy, and a better tone. if i want to get a single mom with three kids and two jobs to vote for me, i need to sit at her kitchen table and ask her what her problems are and how we

help her. i don't need to tell her what her problems are. that's how we'll grow this party. we have a short window, but that's how we do this. >> mr. lieutenant governor, have you been in touch with liz cheney at all? and secondly, on a more personal level, and i ask because my husband struggles with, i want to hear more about the last six months for you and your family and how you navigate forward with the people around you who vehemently disagree about the truth, how you navigate? >> one, i have been in touch with congressman cheney. i'm very proud of her strength and tenacity to tell the truth and proud of her conservative voting record. look, i've got three kids, three boys, 19, 15, 10, i'm married to my high school sweetheart. these have been some very interesting times for us. i'm proud to have them on my team. they've been very supportive. but when you receive death threats from hundreds of republicans from around the country, that's a problem when you're only sitting there

telling the truth. there's a better day ahead. i'm proud to go to work on behalf of my family and 11 million georgians, but this is bigger than georgia. it's time to create a movement, a movement that is worthy to ask for millions and tens of millions of people to vote for. >> all right. georgia lieutenant governor, geoff duncan, thank you so much. so glad to have you here. kasie hunt, i want to ask you, we talked to eugene daniels earlier, and he talked about the possibility of peace breaking out at least for an hour or two on capitol hill. it seemed so important that joe biden and a biden administration keeps up the pace, that they follow up with a victory after their covid-19 relief package. is there a chance that they can do that in the form of a bipartisan infrastructure bill? >> joe, i've got to tell you, it seems more likely than it ever has. and there's a couple of reasons

for that. one is pressure on the republican party to actually show that they're getting something done. this is frankly something the country, everyone can look around in their own communities and see why this is a thing that we need. and that's especially true as we're trying to recover from the pandemic and there are people out there who need well-paid jobs, which a lot of these construction projects could provide. i think there's an acknowledgement that republicans need to be seen as not just standing in the way. they believe that if they want to have a shot at taking back their majorities, they actually do have to get some work done. on the flip side, i think it's becoming increasingly clear that democrats may not be able to get their extraordinarily narrow majority on to the same page. they don't necessarily have 50 votes for this trillion-plus-plan, $2 trillion plan that president biden is proposing. so if they can't do that, in some ways, it gives biden the opportunity to say to the left of his party, hey, look, this is what i would like to do.

then it would become obvious, well, we can't do that. our majority is not big enough. if they can't count to 50 in the senate, they have to work with republicans. and i think both of those dynamics may be pushing us into a place where $800 billion, nothg to sneeze at. i think you could see that climb up a little bit. but, you know, we'll see. it could all fall apart next week, we could be having the opposite conversation. but right now, i think the feeling is, okay, we may actually be moving towards something real and bipartisan here. >> yeah, you know, we were talking about it a week or two ago, everybody is talking about the 60-vote threshold. right now, democrats are having a hard time getting to 50 on a lot of these issues. and mark leibovich, you also have in the biden administration the need to get a win up on the board. he delivered a very sweeping, a historically progressive speech to a joint session of congress and to the country several weeks ago. it was received fairly well if

you believe polls, and there's a question on whether you should believe polls, but it seems it was received pretty well. and again, for most of those proposals, he's having a hard time getting to 50 votes, let alone 60. don't republicans and democrats in this case, at least, need a bipartisan bill on infrastructure to go back to their constituents and say, we are getting something done for you. >> and they need it for different reasons. it's definitely in the republicans' interest at this point, after a long, long time, to actually show that they're serious about governoring and getting something done. and this is an important issue for a lot of republicans in the senate. infrastructure is something that hits home for people, literally, it's in their communities. for democrats, and for biden in particular, there is a real

appetite, not just the math about getting to 50 or 60 or whatever, there's an appetite to do something bipartisan. there's a lot of sort of knee jerk talk from the left, like, oh, well, president biden can just forgetting about working with republicans in any way. i think he fundamentally disagrees with that and he's fundamentally sensitive to the critique some republicans are throwing at the workplace, which is like, oh, joe biden is governing like a radical. he doesn't care about bipartisan. that's all a bunch of nonsense. i think it would be politically smart from the white house to actually do something. and there seems to be a lot of give on both sides. and you do sense a fair amount of optimism. take that with a grain of salt, that actually, there is an appetite to do something at this point. >> yeah. >> i noticed lieutenant governor jeff duncan talked about having spoken with liz cheney several times. you know, i think there will be a place for these republicans to

go, as sort of momentum behind her builds. she's certainly very visible right now. and as well, at knowyourvalue.com, i have written a piece that she and i have never really gotten along, although we grew up in the same circles, and why i'm standing by her now. and joe, you remember the searing letter she wrote me and you can see that in the piece. >> it's a very moving op-ed. very moving where you talk about all the things that y'all have in common. the fact that you both are the same age, you both grew up in mcclain, virginia, both of your fathers were cold warriors. were known to show sharp elbows once and a while in the west wing, and both were really wonderful fathers dedicated to their children. but from that point, there were a lot more differences and she wrote you a letter one time,

fiercely defending her father. you called her, you apologized. she didn't really accept your apology. and because you're a brzezinski, because you're a brzezinski, you hung up the phone and you go, i really respect her. she wouldn't accept my apology and she was tough. >> i liked that. >> who would ever imagine, willie, because i never would have seen this coming, that a brzezinski and a cheney might butt heads once in a while. and yet, in this wonderful moment, and in this piece, mika talks about how liz cheney, despite all of their great political differences will always have her respect for standing up for advisory -- standing up for democracy in a truly historic moment. >> and how could you not. as mika writes, you can disagree on almost everything else, but how could you not agree with her on standing up for democracy. >> it's a very simple

dialectical. now a related story we teased in our last hour. the sham recount in arizona. that's a bridge too far for many republicans. it's happening in the state's most populous county, maricopa. there, supporters of donald trump have launched an election review that was intended to placate voters who insisted the vote was stolen from the former president. now, the county announced it would stop cooperating with the effort with republican leaders calling it a grift disguised as an audit that has spun out of lawmakers' control. our next guest, maricopa county recorder, steven riker responded to the former president's continued false claims about the election by tweeting, this is unhinged, and adding that he was literally looking at our voter registration database on my other screen. right now, we can't indulge

these insane lies any longer as a party, as a state, as a country. and steven richer joins us now. thank you so much for being on the show. >> steven -- >> go ahead, joe. >> i'm sorry, mika. i'm still behind. steven, so talk about unhinged. you have people here who are grifters, who have been pushing conspiracy theories, and they were selected to come out and look over your shoulders. talk about how this bad idea at the beginning has seemingly gotten worse since it started and has really moved out of control >> yeah, well, thank you very much for having me on, joe. their procedures and their lack of experience and their conspiracy theorys and their bamboo papers and their uv lights are one thing. but what was really the final straw for me is when they started defaming my audience,

defaming the good people who work in maricopa county and saying truly horrible things about them midway through this audit. >> hey, steven, it's willie geist. i don't want to repeat all the conspiracy theories and the lies that have been put out there, but when you see something like that come across from the former president of the united states, just an abject lie, something that is easily disproven, but also, the senate in the state of arizona approving this audit, is what they're calling it, looking for traces of bamboo in the paper, because the ballots may have been shipped in from china. i can't even say it with a straight face, how do you push back against that just absolute insanity? >> yeah, i mean, look, i feel for these people. many of these people are my friends and i know they are getting many concerns and many

wishes expressed to them by their constituents. but their concern has been to indulge in yet another audit. my answer is simply, tell truth. tell these people, i am so sorry, you have been lied to repeatedly over the last six months and my heart feels for you. but it's just, it's a lie. >> kasie? >> so i guess my question for you is, and i have to say, you know, we've seen a couple of other public officials do what you're doing in standing up, especially the secretary of state in georgia, for example, who did it earlier, when they were in the spotlight. now, obviously, it's turned to you all. but there is something much bigger that's surrounding all of this. and that is the information architecture that is feeding people this information in a way that makes it hard to sit across from them and convince them that what they're hearing is not true. what do you hear from people you talk to about where they're getting their information, why

they believe that information over you, the official who's actually looking at all the data is seeing? how much is that the problem and what can you do about it? >> yeah, i mean, that's a much broader conversation and bigger problem and smarter people are thinking about than i am. but -- and that's why i'm not too terribly disappointed with the average person, but i'm disappointed with leaders. disappointed with leaders who actually know better, and yet they continue to perpetuate these untruths. and the irony of this is this they're all lining up to run in 2022. some of them are even going to run for higher office. and i just asked yesterday, do you think, you know, you just said, everything is fraudulent. do you think dominion is going to rig it in your favor in 2022? or do you think that fraud doesn't apply to your race? what's going on here? i think your actions speak louder than your words. >> wow. mark leibovich has the next question. mark? >> i'm curious, i mean, obviously, the former president has taken a very big interest in this. he's weighed in on a number of

times. what does it look like when he does weigh in? what's the response you get in a 24-hour period after he puts out a statement referencing arizona, this or that? >> that's how this all started, is a very nice lady, who's a supporter of mine, forwarded me president trump's statement. i'm not on his mailing list. she forwarded it and she said, what's going on here steven? i trusted you, but the former president says that you're deleting files. i'm just like, oh, my goodness. as soon as he speaks, it rattles cages. if it was me, that was one thing. but it's defaming the 160 people who are good, hard-working people in the maricopa county election's department. >> all right, maricopa county recorder steven richer, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. and mark leibovich, thank you, as well. still ahead on "morning joe," president biden is headed to a ford plant in michigan

today to pitch his plan for electric vehicles. epa administrator michael regan joins us next to preview that. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. t. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. spray, lift, skip, step. swipe, lift, spin, dry. slam, pan, still...fresh move, move, move, move aaaaand still fresh. degree. ultimate freshness activated when you move. plaque psoriasis, the burning, itching. the pain. with tremfya®, adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis... ...can uncover clearer skin and improve symptoms at 16 weeks. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. tremfya®. emerge tremfyant™. janssen can help you explore cost support options.

president biden is scheduled to visit a ford electric vehicle facility in michigan today where he'll spotlight his $2.3 trillion infrastructure plan. the package includes $174 billion in proposed funding for electric vehicles. the single largest item in the plant's transportation section. we also expect. a group of gop senators is scheduled to meet with gop officials, including with secretary pete buttigieg and commerce secretary gina ra mondo as the two sides continue

negotiations. joining us now, epa administrator, michael regan. it's very good to have you on the show. let's talk about getting the country transitioned to electric vehicles. how realistic is it and what would the timeline look like? >> it's really risk. the market is telling us it's realistic. ford and other major automanufacturers are already shifting and making this shift very quickly. the president is touting the american jobs plan and he'll be focused on the electric vehicles in the electric vehicle markets. the market share is one third of china's. we know that the competition is there and we're excited about this plan. >> one of the big pieces of getting electric vehicles worker

is the batteries that power them and there's something of an arms race going on to build the components for the batteries. where is the u.s. in that race and are we prepared to be able to provide that kind of technology to our companies here at home? >> that's one of the great things about the american jobs plan. it ensures that we are competitive. $174 billion in the market is what the president is calling for. and he's calling for that level of investment for that very reason that you just posed that question, which is ensuring that we can have 500,000 electric vehicle charging stations across this country, so that people don't have range anxiety. 50,000 diesel truck conversion. 20% of our yellow school buses converted. but more importantly, ensuring that we have the investments going into retooling our

factories, so that those jobs stay here domestically. those are very important components of this american jobs plan and it's a public/private partnership to ensure we can be globally competitive. >> i understand that in terms of making sure there are places people can take the cars. but the battery question, this is one where some of our foreign competitors, germany, volkswagen, for example, is the president and the administration going to try to do anything to help our auto makers compete in that market? because you have seen some elements of that coming from other countries. >> we are. it's to help shore up the framework so our automobile industry is very competitive. they've already announced that electric vehicles are the future

and they're trending in that direction. what we can do is to ensure that we have the proper infrastructure in place to handle this new emerging market, but we also want to be sure that as we're looking at retooling the factories, investing in the supply chain, and looking at the minerals and all of the details that go into this, i think what you're seeing with the american jobs plan is that public/private partnership to ensure that we're remaining globally competitive. >> when automakers hear about electric vehicles, they worry about their jobs. we've heard that from the head of the uaw in the last few weeks. they say, this step forward and a date certain we're going to go electric, they worry that means fewer jobs for them. how do you answer those concerns? >> you know, we're answering those concerns directly being have the conversations with the

unions. i'm having the conversations with the unions directly about what we're proposing in terms of emission standards and the administration is having conversations directly with the unions about the investments of the american jobs plan. and the reason we're so laser focused is because we want to be sure that as we focus on the urgency of climate change and the need to reduce emissions and as we focus on remaining globally competitive with china, to tackle the ev market, we want to have the infrastructure here domestically with the ev charging stations, with the factories, we want to be sure that we keep these jobs domestically located. so we're focused on that, we're having the conversations with the unions, and i think they're really good, productive conversations on how we keep the jobs and how we remain globally competitive. >> epa administrator michael regan, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. and now to this disclosure out of new york. tax records show new york governor andrew cuomo is being

paid more than $5 million for his book on leadership during the coronavirus crisis. the governor and his office had for months refused to disclose how much he was paid. according to the documents released by cuomo's office, he was paid more than $3 million last year and will be paid another $2 million over the next two years. >> holy cow! >> i'm just -- i'm just having a little bit of a -- >> are you kidding me?! >> i'm sitting here thinking -- >> are you kidding me?! >> i'm not kidding. you kidding me. because i'm sitting here looking at the numbers and working with a lot of people and helping them with book deals and stuff and they happen to be women and they're not making that kind of money. i don't know what's going on here. >> this guy is in public service and he's making this money? >> who's the publisher? >> yeah. in related news, willie, the family of the designer the

hindenburg will be paid $6.7 million on the question of helium or hydrogen. there's a lot of money. i mean, for a public servant. and i don't -- i don't know that things have worked out quite so well. he's under an investigation right now on whether they cooked the books, when it came to nursing home deaths. and when i say, i don't know, that's me -- that's what the kids call these days understatement. that's crazy money. >> it's crazy money for anyone, and we asked him in realtime, wherever that book came out last year, when he came on the show, why on god's earth you would write a celebratory book about your leadership while you were still right in the middle of the crisis. and it has not worked out well for him. as you said, the initial decision two marches ago to send patients back into nursing homes, then covering up the number of deaths that were

inside those nursing homes. there's also, of course, the sexual harassment investigation in his time as governor. and yet, i don't know how in good faith you could accept the $5 million for a book about your leadership in a crisis when your state, the state of new york, not all through his fault, but it's a truth, had it as bad or worse than anybody else in the country. and the leadership in many cases, as these investigations are showing and as journalism has shown, has been frankly terrible and deadly in many cases. >> yeah. the governor says any work by state employees that helped him with the book was voluntary. that's so nice. might want to pay them. coming up, the rise and fall of the secret service -- >> actually, mika, i really think, in light of everything -- i mean, first of all, i don't know he takes money for this book, given the investigations that he's under for his handling of covid, but seems like the right thing to do would actually be to donate that money to a

khater. for or to help those who passed away during covid. >> yeah. or sexual assault and sexual harassment support, services for women. i just think also the publisher might want to do a pay equity autopsy on the way they pay people. that's all i've got to say there. coming up -- oh, by the way, alex is reminding me that he is donating some of the money to some sort of charity? we'll get the exact information. it's a large number. the rise and fall of the secret service, "the washington post's" carol leonnig joins us next with her in-depth reporting on the scandals that have plagued the nation charged with protecting our nation's highest leaders. "morning joe" will be right back s "morning joe" will be right back

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for most of the last decade, our next guest has been reporting on the secret service and many of the recent big scandals surrounding the agency. now she is bringing to light the secret scandals and shortcomings of the government agency in her new book, "zero fail: the rise and fall of the secret service" joining us now, investigative reporter for "the washington post," msnbc contributor, carol leonnig. and carol, i know you're reporting on a lot of different events that took place, especially over the last four years and cross lines. what stands out to you most in your reporting about the agency and what changes are being made? >> mika, thanks for having me on today. the most important thing i learned in this book, other than all of the scandals and all of the shortcomings and all of the cover-ups of failures is this is an agency that's vital to our american democracy. it protects the president.

it has a zero-fail mission. it can never fail. but there are warning signs that disaster is something we're courting right now with this agency. agents train for years in this job to basically stand between a and the president. but most of the time lately they're just dodging and bullet and they need help, they need tools, they need more staff and they need a culture change. a shake-up and a solution to this really terrifying problem. agents risk their jobs, their careers to share this -- these secrets because they're worried a president is going to be killed on their watch. >> carol, you say their mission is ridley large. explain. >> you know, we all think of the secret service as the guys in the sunglasses and the trimmed

suits, that have the earpieces and are protecting the president. and that is the number one mission. but on top of that, this group defends and protected another 40 people. we are protecting presidents grandchildren, vice president's step children. they are also protecting cabinet members, on top of that they're investigating cyber hacking, financial crimes. and they're responsible now for protecting super bowls and ever year the united nations assembly, more than 150 nation state leaders from foreign governments, that is too big of a mission when they are budgets haven't kept up and their staffing hasn't kept up. >> and carol, you talk about instances where they have been used throughout history for political purposes. you said that donald trump, like richard nixon, would have secret service officers intentionally provoke the crowds so they could

push a quote, law and order theme. you also talk about when barack obama was running against hillary clinton, how one of barack obama's allies, a powerfully ally pushed to get secret service protection to barack obama earlier to give him more credibility. he got it earlier than any other candidate in u.s. history. some would say that obviously he had many more threats. but still there was a political angle to that. explain how sometimes these agents who are putting their lives on line every day are used as political props. >> joe, it may be the most important question, the one you've just asked which is this agency is revered and has been over years because of its political independence. as the agents say, people elect them, we protect them. they're not supposed to be an

arm of the white house, their protecting democracy by protecting the man, protecting the office. but so often recently, they've been deployed as a political tool and president nixon and president trump are sort of the stand-out examples of this unfortunately. president nixon had agents trying to eavesdrop on ted kennedy. he put a secret service detail on ted kennedy who was not a presidential candidate at the time but they believed was under some sort of danger of assassination. but the goal was to get dirt on a political enemy and try to railroad him out of a chance of becoming president ever. in the case of donald trump, he deployed secret service agents to help him clear lafayette kwar on june 1st. basically removing every single protesters of the george floyd murder because president trump wanted a photo op in front of

church to show that he was tough and prevailing over protesters and establishing law and order in the nation's capitol. he risked their health and lives as covid was spiking around the country so that you could continue to do campaign rallies in public. 300 secret service officers and agents either contracted covid or had to be quarantined because they were exposed and were at risk of getting covid during that summer of campaigning. also the president could continue to boost his image and continue to came in public and in his view continue to hold the reins of power. >> carol, it is willie. congratulations on the book. you call the secret service, chronic ridiculously large mission that includes thing that people don't realize like

counterfeiting and financial crimes and some agents drive their personal vehicles to pick up the people they are protecting because there weren't enough cars and they couldn't get to everybody. what is your sense of the morale in the secret service and the scope of that mission today? >> well, willie, such a smart point. there are so many agents and officers who just sort of knock my socks off in terms of their dedication to this mission. but they cannot do it just on their own stubborn, you know, sweat and pain. they need the tools to do the job and they can't have 17 different jobs. and one of the things that i find so striking about this organization is they haven't lost a president since kennedy. that is their dedication and will speaking. but what they've also said to me is, it is just a matter of time before some disaster happens. so many security gaps have unfolds in the last ten years

just that i've been covering them and that is a symptom. that is a warning flag. i'm sort of ringing the alarm bell for the agents that can't speak for themselves and are saying, look, all of the warning signs before kennedy was killed are happening now. and let's pay attention to them before catastrophe strikes. >> so what does that mean exactly, what are they looking for, is it for funding, body, recruitment, what do they need to prevent this catastrophe? >> they need to move from 1900s technology to the 21st century. you know, willie, just very recently, in the first few months of president trump's presidency in of 2017, a man without a plan and without any training got over the white house fence. this is the second time someone got over the white house fence. and into literally up to the east wing, jiggled the door and

was on the compound for 15 minutes. why was that? because the alarms and the sensors on the fence and the radios and the cameras were all on fritz in some way or another. that can't be acceptable that the most secure 18-acre compound in the world or allegedly what is supposed to be the most secure 18-acre compound has technology that is routinely failing. the only reason that man was able to be on the compound that long was because of ridiculously outdated equipment. >> carol, it is kasie hunt, first of all, congratulations on this book. i don't know how you managed to write a third. you're working on a book with phil rucker. and you write about some of the contemporaneous events and you say despite the heroism in arms

that day, some took to social media in the days after january 6th empathizing with and defending the armed riots who breached the capital that pummelled capitol police officers with metal pipes and bats. you could tack about how the secret service is dealing with people who have said things like this in public. and i know there were concerns about among the biden administration about loyalty. what could you tell us about how all of this fits together? >> so two really important things about what you raise. number one, it was a shock to me when sources inside of the agency sent to me this screen shots of their colleagues on presidential protective detail who have been basically -- cheering on the january 6th event and empathizing and saying we actually also believe that the election was illegitimate.

when you have people responsible for protecting our country's sort of stability and that means protecting president biden, saying that they're not sure he's the president, everybody has to take a deep breath. they declined to explain what they were doing about the individuals we identified. i have heard from sources that they are looking in a kind of artificial intelligence way at the social media. but there is something else important that you raise and that's the issue of the awkwardness of the biden transition team coming in. because what did they learn as they were about to arrive. that president trump's detail were in great solidarity with trump. there were maga hats on desks, there was a senior executive who temporarily went to work for the white house as a political aide to the president, arranging his

rallies, aranking that lafayette square clearing that looks -- and that person now is assistant director and back working at the secret service while biden is president. so, you could see why the biden transition team was scurrying around trying to find out more about the secret service agents on the detail. and pressing for new people on that team, new supervisors, which they did get, that biden was comfortable with, that biden knew from when he was president and then it protected him and his wife jill. >> all right, the new book is "zero fail, the rise and fall of the secret service", carol lynn eck, thank you so much for your reporting. and buttoning up our discussion from last block, governor cuomo said he donated about $330 of book profits so far to the united way of new york state for

statewide covid relief and vaccination efforts. so there is that. we've got much more ahead including the ongoing question surrounding when and where americans need to mask up. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts right now. >> it is confusing time when best buy has tougher health rules than the cdc. afraid cdc guidelines have become more confusing than a parking sign in new york city. [ applause ] could i stand here. no you could stand here on tuesday. so the director said that for the new guidelines to work the cdc is asking americans to be honest about their vaccination status. really? people can't even tell the truth on their tinder profiles. come on. it was a picture of me. >> i love it wasn't a best buy yesterday. and yes, it was very strict.

mask guide lines may be getting more confusing even as the pandemic shows signs of abating. for the first time covid cases are down in all 50 states, now the biden administration is poised to send more vaccines over seas to countries that are desperate for them. good morning and welcome to "morning jo", it is monday, may 18th and we have from "the new york times," peter baker. white house correspondent and co-author of the playbook, eugene daniels. and former democratic congresswoman jane harman of california. she's a distinguished fellow and president at the wilson center and author of the new book "insanity defense, why our failure to confront hard national security problems makes us less safe." and what a really important place to start this morning.

we'll get to much more on the the changes to state mask guidelines in just a moment. but first, after a brief stoppage and fighting overnight, violence continues between israel and hamas. and now lebanon this morning, smoke clouds and flames could be seen rising from gaza buildings at sunrise following attacks from israeli war planes while sirens blared through an israeli city near the gazaer warning of a hamas rocket attack. the israeli military said close to 90 rockets were launched from gaza overnight bringing the total to 3300 since the conflict began last week. israeli forces reported a shelling of lebanon in retaliation for six rockets fired toward israel. tensions have been high at the israeli/lebanese border where protesters have come out in support of the palestinians.

after a meeting with top defense officials, benjamin netanyahu said that israel would continue to strike terror targets for as long as necessary. gaza health ministry said 212 people have been killed since air strikes began last week including 61 children. israeli officials have reported ten deaths with two being children. willie. >> meanwhile in a call with netanyahu, the white house said president biden, quote, express the support for a cease-fire. according to a white house readout of that call, the president, quote, reiterated his firm support for israel's quite to defend itself while also, quote, ensuring the protection of innocent civilians. the carefully worded statement comes as a number of democrats urge the president to speak out for forcefully against israel. joining us now, martin flexor who is reporting for nbc news in

tel aviv. good morning. what is the very latest from where you're sitting. >> hi, willie, good morning, everybody. it was a fairly quiet night in most of the area. and then it suddenly took off in the morning with israeli war plane attacks on gaza, rockets from gaza into israel. you mentioned the new twist which is that rockets were fired from lebanon toward israel. six rockets fired from lebanon toward israel. apparently they all landed short and israel retaliated with artillery fire against those rocket attacks. but the fear of course is that as long as there is no cease-fire, the greater of the possibility of conflict spreading. lebanon being an obvious possibility of extra warfare here. so there is appreciate building for a cease-fire. pressure also from the united states on israel. but my political sources told me

yes there is pressure from america, but it is not what they call strong pressure. so israel seems to have the green light from the united states to continue knocking off those targets that it has in gaza, in the homes and offices of islamic military leaders in gaza. and at the moment, there is no sign that there is any real movement toward a cease-fire from either side, willie. >> so martin, joe scarborough here, in calls over the last several days, it seems diplomats and foreign policy leaders in this country keep quietly saying the same thing, we're focus right now on hamas, we're focusing right now on the missiles. but the israelis should be considered about the civil unrest. arabs maybe up 20% of israel and the arab israelis an the israelis for the first time inside of the country really experiencing flash points. can you talk about that and talk

about the long-term danger that poses for the nation of israel. >> absolutely, joe. look, as you indicate, this is the fif mg round of fighting between hamas and israel in the last 15 years. so there is a certain cycle presumably and unfortunately more dead on both sides and then a cease-fire negotiated of some kind and then they will go on hiatus until the next round. and it is a very significant deterioration in relations inside of a country that is extremely fragile based on an easy relationship between jews and arabs. that is falling apart. there is a call for a general strike amang arabs on the west bank and arabs inside of israel. they're gathering on street

corners all over the area. there is another terror attack, eight foiled on the west bank in the last three days. so it is building up. and the possibility of putting that jeanne back in the bottle if you like, of arab against israel and not only arab unrest against israel, it is israeli unrest against the arabs. these are mobs on both sides who are not fighting each other and mob against mob. it is both sighs, jews and arar beating them up and killing them. one israeli jew who was severely beaten, he just died so that is one israeli -- literally beaten to death by a palestinian mob. and palestinians have been killed by israelis. so this is an extremely dense and dangerous volatile situation that needs some serious thought about how to get jews back on the same page inside of israel. and this is being played out in the attempt to form a new government.

prime minister netanyahu has gathered support from the right wing over the last several attempts to form governments. his fourth in two years. by whipping up discontent with the arabs and the arabs feel disassociated from the country. this is not something that comes from the violence in gaza now. it is something that has been building up for many years, whipped up by right wing politicians in israel and arabs feeling disenchanted, separated from the state, losing their role, their not so sure of their position inside of the country any more. they're young and angry and hopeless because don't have jobs. this is a very volatile situation. both inside of israel, does not bode well for the future. >> thank you so much. martin fletcher. we appreciate it. be safe. peter baker. right now obviously the situation continues to move in an ominous direction. most observers recognize this as a cynical play between hamas and the netanyahu government who has

been fomenting unrest inside of the country between israeli jews and israeli arabs to try to stop the coalitions from coming together. that said there are coalitions in the united states concerning joe biden and the administration. people suggesting that the biden administration was far more careful in confronting netanyahu on these dead children being taken out of buildings and trying to call a cease-fire because he may not have the support in congress to back him up in standing up to these attacks and to standing up it netanyahu. >> yeah, the politics of this domestically for president biden are pretty fraught. they are difficult to navigate. because the democratic party, while supportive of israel, has, you know, evolved over recent years to being much more divided

between those two think that israel has gone too far and more sympathetic to the palestinian cause versus those who have been traditionally israel's biggest supporters in the country. whereas ant other side you have the republicans much more mono lithic pro-israel these days than in the past. so for biden then, every word, every statement, every move is dissected and analyzed and suggest to criticism from one part of his party or another depending on how far he leans this way or that way. >> and of course over 3,000 hamas rockets being fired, peter, into israel. and it continues well into the second week. the question is, how does biden tell netanyahu, how does he tell the israelis to stand down while the missiles continue going into

israel? >> well he doesn't have a very warm relationship with prime minister netanyahu. they've had their differences in the past back when president biden was the vice president and senate foreign relations chairman. obviously prime minister netanyahu had a better friend in trump. so there is a frosty start. president biden didn't speak with prime minister netanyahu for a while. he was not near the top of the foreign leader calls and that was noticed in jerusalem. so there isn't this sort of strong relationship there to begin with. but obviously, president biden if he chooses to use them, has quite a few tules of leverage. america is a significant contributor of aid, a lot of the equipment that the military uses has been provided for or supported by american aid. and if he choose to use it, president biden has that pressure to use it.

but again partly because of the domestic pressures at home, he hasn't chouzen to use it yet. he's trying to take a little bit of a -- not hands off but not completely hands on approach at this point. >> oobd we're going to dig much deeper on this when we speak with a leading palestinian diplomat. but first a conversation with the former israeli ambassador to the united states. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. right back. one of my interest rates went up to 9%. which is atrocious. then i discovered sofi. completely changed my life. lower interest rate. my principal is going down. sofi is a place where you can start to tackle those money goals today. compared to where i was three years ago, i'm kinda killing it. ♪♪

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♪♪ jane harman, this brings us to you. your book is "why our failure to confront national security problems makes us less safe." . does this fit the bill here and what nuances should the united states be considering to deal with this constructively? >> well, thank you for that, mika and thank you for paving

the way for the rest of us to write books. this is my first and maybe my last try. it was a hard thing to do. another hard problem. >> yeah. >> on this i could think about a few things said already. here they are, netanyahu has two objectives. one is to survive politically and staying out of jail. and he has scrambled his efforts to form a new government. he was unable to do that after the fourth election. now that the coalition against him is falling apart, so i predict israel will go to a fifth election and if he wins that, i think everybody is exhausted, then he will stay out of jail. check that box. another box is to thoroughly degrade hamas by destroying the tunnels. very tricky because their under civilian buildings and that is why going in on the ground was floated because soldiers could go into the tunnels and blow them up. and this is been the way that

hamas is struggled in rockets and material to attack israel and assume those rocks are coming from iran, something that we've talked about. so that is one thing. the second thing is, hezbollah on the lebanese border, i was there during the war, with a group of members of congress. everyone thought they were crazy, the missiles were going overhead and there we were. but 100,000 plus munitions and meaning they could hit their targets and hidden underneath buildings so all of this could be a bigger catastrophe than we're talking about and it is very tricky for everybody to navigate. speaking in one voice about this, what does it take to get there and what impact could that have? >> it is just so hard to see them getting to that one voice really on anything right at this point and it is been said before

that the left and the democrats have a different conversation happening than the republicans are. on the republican side, it feels very much like years past where any kind of support for a palestine is a no-no. on the left, with democrats, that is not the case any more. we're seeing people come to the house floor speaking with such passion against israel in a way that you haven't in such a long time. so biden is dealing with this party having its own dynamics and changing dynamics and that is part of the reason why you're seeing if not waffling, the soft touch diplomacy in conversations that he's doing, they want him to be doing more and he knows that with israel being one of the strongest allies in the middle east, how much money that we give them, there are people who say, well yeah, we should be using that all -- all of that aid as some kind of leverage and

that is something that you would have not have heard any politician in congress say a long time ago. this is a white house that foreign policy wise they wanted to phone us on china and russia. and so dealing with this right now so early on in the administration is something i don't think they were expecting. so their trying to figure out and navigate what the changing dynamics is in congress. just because the dynamics have change the in congress, that doesn't mean they've changed elsewhere and so that is how -- where the issues really lie. >> coming up, should we be wearing masks indoors or not? we'll dig into the mixed messaging when it comes to when and where to mask up. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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a major shift in the guidance on how to protect yourself through all of this. the cdc now saying people should use cloth face coverings when going outside. >> the federal government is now recommending americans wear a nonsurgical mask or face covering in public. >> president trump said he's not going to wear a mask despite the cdc new recommendation that

americans should do it. >> i think wearing a face mask as i greet presidents, primary, dictators, kings, queens, i don't know, somehow i don't see it for myself. >> i had one on before. i wore one in this back area but i didn't want to give the press the pleasure of seeing. >> a lot of people think that masks are not good. >> who are those people. >> i'll tell you who those people are. waiters. >> i wish i would stop talking and let the scientists speak. i don't walk out of this house without a mask on. >> let the president start by sending that signal very simply, just wear the mask. >> the president didn't take it seriously, mcconnell has not taken it seriously, but we could stop this if we follow the science. >> you see, willie, where trump -- orb mika, where trump was saying it just doesn't make sense for presidents, prime

ministers, dictators. i don't know. where do you -- >> wanna be dictators. really dumb wannabe dictators. >> just insanity. but yeah, so, yeah. >> that was then. >> and joe biden and democrats are saying follow the science and i couldn't agree more. follow the science. and what the cdc says. >> yes. and that is what most democratic leaders were saying a year ago when it came to listening to the cdc. in terms of wearing a mask. but now there is this con sin -- inconsistencies for people to stop wearing a mask. it is confusing. joe biden announced that for the first time covid cases are down in all 50 states and 60% of americans have received at least one vaccine dose which is amazing news. but new jersey governor phil

murphy said it is too soon to drop his states indoor public mask rules. new jersey will continue to require all people vaccinated or not to keep wearing masks new c guidance. governor murphy said the state is just not ready. >> we're been clobbered not once but twice, we've lost over 26,000 people. we know the virus is more lethal indoors. and you're asking somebody who is at the hardware store working there or retail or a grocery store to make the judgment on who is vaccinated and who is not. we're not there yet. we're close. >> willie, this is your own state, willie. >> proudly. >> i think 434 cases in the entire state last week. those cases have continue to

decline. the cdc guidance said if your vaccinated you don't have to wear a mask indoors. the cdc director saying, hey, it is time to go back to living normal the way you did before. and scott gottlieb saying, hey, if we don't lift these mask mandates now, when we're having a break, we're not going to have the credibility to reinstitute them in the fall if there is a spike. and we do need them reimplemented but there is not a spike. over 60% of americans have at least one vaccination. you know, i guess it is easy to complain from the cheap seats here. but it just -- follow the science. if we're telling governors to follow the cdc for a year when donald trump is president of the united states, shouldn't they follow the cdc guidance when joe biden is president of the united states. >> absolutely. and actually in the state of new jersey, almost 70% or maybe it

is pushing over a little since i last looked, 70% of adults in new jersey has one dose of the vaccine. so you're getting up into where we heard about herd immunity numbers several months ago. and what is interesting is new jersey has acted in concert with new york, pennsylvania and connecticut over the last year or so. they've been taking they're queues from each other because the numbers were so bad here. well new york announced yesterday that starting tomorrow it will follow the cdc guidelines and take off the mask. connecticut did it a long time ago. so the numbers in new jersey are pretty good. so this is a curious move by governor murphy and he does really stand alone. he's not -- he's not working with governor cuomo, or governor lamont in connecticut. but if this isn't out of the woods it is hard to see where it would be. >> coming up, the diplomatic and military angles to the flare-up in the middle east.

we'll talk to richard haas along with "new york times" pentagon correspondent helene cooper. "morning joe" is back in a moment. who goes right back to sleep after getting an alert of an unusual charge on their credit card?

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get started with a great offer, and ask how you can add comcast business securityedge. plus, for a limited time, ask how to get a $500 prepaid card when you upgrade. call today. we are ready to lend support if the parties seek a cease-fire. we'll continue to conduct diplomacy to bring this current cycle of violence to an end then we'll immediately resume the work, the vital work of making real division of israel and palestinian state, existing peacefully, side-by-side, with people from all communities able to live in dignity. >> secretary of state blinken in denmark yesterday discussing the u.s. involvement in the ongoing conflict between israel and the palestinian militant group hamas. in a few minutes, we're going to be speaking with the political coordinator for mission of the state of palestine to the united

states, but first joining us now is former israeli ambassador to the united states, ron dermer, also with us for this discussion. >> good to be with you. >> we have from the new york time, helene copper and president of the council on foreign relations richard haas and nbc's kasie hunt is back with us as well. joe. >> mr. ambassador, all good to talk to you. thanks so much for being with us today. you just heard anthony blinken saying the united states supports a cease-fire. does israel support a cease-fire this morning? >> not just yet. what happened as you know about a week ago is hamas launched this attack against us. when somebody comes over to you and clubs you, and then said wheeze like to have a cease-fire, you just don't listen to them and accept the cease-fire. the israeli people want to make sure that this cease-fire will be a long-term pause in hostilities. we've had four rounds of violence with hamas, in 2008 and

2009 and 2012 and 2014 and now in 2021 and we've had many salvos of rockets fired at us in between intermittently. and what the people of israel want is they want their government to exact such a high price from hamas that hamas regrets having started this in the first place but more importantly will not engage in this type of violence for a very long time in the future. i don't know if we've reached that point where hamas is deterred. time will tell. >> but, ron, as you know, with all due respect, hamas is only been strengthening through this process and you're not going to able to degrade hamas's capability enough to stop future attacks, to stop future funding from outside sources. so what is the end game here? is israel going after hamas, is israel attacking areas throughout gaza, more young

children, more women are pulled from the rubble, for the world to see. what is the end game and is that high cost worth it for israel? >> first, joe, it is very important to understand what hamas is. hamas is not only a terror organization recognized as such throughout the world, it is a genocidal terror organization. this is charter calls for the murder of je wefs worldwide. this is an organization that -- >> mr. ambassador, wait -- >> wait, wait. >> no i've already said that this morning. >> but you can't make peace with a terror organization. >> doan you understand that your actions. of course, do you understand mr. ambassador, israel's actions over the past week have only strengthened hamas. >> i disagree. >> palestinian authority in gaza -- >> i disagree. >> that people look to now. >> i disagree.

>> go ahead. >> and we have to degrade their capabilities and we have. we've taken out about 80 to 90% of the arms manufacturing capability. we took out one of the most important weapons of war which is a tunnel network they use to move fighters and missiles and -- supplies under the city. but we're dealing with a terror organization that doesn't want to make peace with israel, it not interested in it yesterday or today or tomorrow and we have to do what we have to do to defend our civilians. what would happen, joe, if half of americans were in bomb shelters, what do you think you would want your government to do. that is why the people of israel are united in order to exact such heavy price. many want to do much more than israel is doing now. but if tomorrow we go into gaza and if you conquer gaza, and can

you destroy hamas, we have the military capability to do that, but what do you do the day after? what do do you with 2 million palestinians the day after. remember, joe, in 2005, israel withdrew all of the military forces from gaza. we uprooted 17 settlements and took 10 now jews but hamas has used that as a larging pad against our civilians and no government will accept this. >> no. well and again, mr. ambassador, we know each other personally and i know you watch the show enough to know, i recognize all of that. i also recognize, though, richard haas, you have the next question, that hamas has been strengthened politically in the west bank. you have a corrupt palestinian authority where the president is on a 17th year of a four year term that is seen as corrupt. and now this is actually done

nothing but revive hamas's political fortunes. >> i also wanted to raise another group of 2 million people, not the million inhabited in gaza but the two million israeli arabs and it seems israel is facing this external challenge from gaza and i think joe is right, however much you degrade hamas, you're strengthening politically vis-a-vis the palestinian authority. what is israel going to do to stop the violence. you have too many israeli arabs who increasingly feel their second class citizens, prime minister clear opposes their involvement in the coalition government, what do you say to them, how do you prevent them from getting further radicalized? >> well i don't think that is true regarding the prime minister. but we could put that aside for a second. there is no question this is a major issue and deeply disturbing last week when you

saw violence between arabs and jewses and we had a situation a few days ago where you have an arab mob that went into a jewish city and lynch someone and you had a jewish gang that went in and lynch an arab and it links at the fabric of israeli society. we have want to ensure that our arab israeli citizens which is 20% of the population, it is 2 million israeli arabs, if they will be integrated into the country. and what is interesting about what has happened in the last year, is that you've actually seen an increase of the pace of integration of israeli arabs into israeli society. you saw that during the covid response, where you if go to israeli hospitals you'll see doctors and nurses and of course paramedics and pictures seen throughout the world, working together jews and arabs and we

had four peace agreements with arab states and there was a great feeling in israel that this would actually accelerate integration of israeli arabs and what we saw last week was a serious set back to that and i'm not sure that those two aren't connected. because i think most israeli arabs want to integrate into the country but there are elements within the society that don't want to do it. certainly hamas, an external element that are radicals don't want to do it. i think they're fanning the flames. we're doing everything we can in order to reduce tension. we've had political leadership across the spectrum, left, right and center that have come out against jews against arabs or arabs against jews. it is not actually been so vocal. some of the religious leadership has. >> helene cooper is with us and has a question.

helene? >> hi, thanks, ambassador, and happy shibbot today. >> thank you. >> i wanted to take a whack at sort of what joe was asking. because i wonder just how much longer you think israel and the netanyahu government can survive sort of the degradation of the bipartisan consensus on israel here in the united states, which a lot of this started after bibi gave the address against the iran nuclear deal. you have now during this latest crisis, an increasing nun of democrats who are criticizing israel and who are pressuring israel more into cease-fire, people we haven't seen doing this in the past, people like bob menendez, greg meeks, hardly people i would describe as the hard core left of the democratic

party. do you worry at all that because also of the four years of hyper partisanship on israel during the trump administration, that you're in a worse position now when you look at american support than you would have been before? >> look, we're very appreciative of the strong bipartisan support that israel has had and we've done with it successful administrations, both democrats and republicans on both sides of the aisle in congress and we've seen strong statements from both sides of the aisle that respect israel's right to defend itself and you've heard other statements from people within the democratic party, mostly within the democratic party that called for a cease-fire. i don't know if that means a huge shift away from israel. they'd like to see the violence end. woe would like to see the violence end. but i think if they understand all of the facts and see what is happening on the ground, i think none of those people who signed that statement, would you hope so, none of them wants hamas to win. to be for the palestinians is

not the same thing for being for hamas. hamas has to be seen as a political loser here. and joe said we are strengthening hamas politically, i disagree. the question is zp anyone give hamas gains politically and one way they get strengthened is for people to pressure israel rather than blaming hamas. another thing that could happen is in jerusalem, they're trying to change the status quo in jerusalem, to reinforce it and back israel in jerusalem but send a strong signal to hamas. the international community has to be partners are israel in making it kpleer to palestinians to the way of hamas is a way of failure and that is not just onnous, and we'll do our part, but it is also on the understand, president biden which i have to say we are deeply appreciative that he is fully supported israelez right to defend ourselves and i want to say something else. i want to say thank you to the american people for iron dome.

because that system, that system has saved so many israeli lives as these rockets are -- these incoming rockets that are fired at our civilians. it is not only saved israeli lives, it has saved many palestinian lives. if we didn't have that system protecting us from the incoming rockets, we have no choice but to launch a massive launch that would see many more killed up until this point. >> i don't think anyone would deny israel's right to defend itself and americans would feel the same about their cities but you also just alluded there have been 61 children killed and hospitals and clinics damaged. how doumit gate. we here there are a message, but why is there so much civilian casualty. >> because hamas target our civilians and then em bed in

civilian areas by mosques ab schools. they have the military command center under a main hospital in gaza and they did had also where a.p. and al jazeera, you have hamas developments trying to work out systems to for example jam our iron dome system or prevent the precise guided munitions that we use in order to avoid civilian casualties. we do everything to avoid civilian casualties. think about the buildings that have collapsed. you have 15-story buildings that have gone down in gaza. you could think you would have hundreds of thousands of people dying. you didn't have a single person die in them because we're doing everything we can to avoid civilian casualties. also we have to look at the entire -- all of the numbers when it comes out. because don't forget, many hamas rockets don't make it to israel. and as we've had in the past, apparently we've had this this time as well. hamas rockets land in gaza, kill innocent civilians and take out their electrical supplies so i

would ask people to reserve judgment. we check every single allegation against israel and will do that in the future and but i don't think there is any military that has done more to keep civilians. enemy out of harm's way and this is happening not thousands of miles away. this is happening right next door when our own cities are being rocketed. when half of our population is in bomb shelters. we are still acting within enormous restraint and we'll continue to do so because those are our values. we value life, unfortunately we're dealing with a terror organization, a genocidal terror organization that glorifies death. >> ron, just a quick follow up before we let you go. you brought up the a.p. offices and the al jazeera offices that were destroyed. yesterday morning we got news that anthony blinken had not received any evidence from israel that there were hamas leaders or operations in those buildings. have you all passed on to the

secretary of state or the united states government evidence that hamas leaders or hamas operations were being run out of that a.p. and al jazeera building? >> yes, i believe we have that evidence and as i said from what i understand, you have hamas intelligence have hamas intelli assets there and r&d asset working on doing things like jam our iron dome mission or gps systems and that would be disastrous. the missiles would not target terrorists, they would end up killing civilians. that information has been passed on and i hope to ask u.s. officials about that in the coming hour. >> we will check that out, ron. we greatly appreciate you being with us, mr. ambassador. hope to see you soon and appreciate your time. richard haass, let's go to the question. i don't think anybody would deny the fact israel degraded hamas

militarily on the margins. hamas always builds back and this actually seems to be a business model, not only of hamas but also of right wing politicians and israel to have this conflict of every five, six years, get money from outside sources, rebuild, do it again. but do you know of any middle east observers that you respect that understand the region, that deny hamas has been strengthened politically by this? because every single person i have spoken to inside and outside of israel and inside and outside of the middle east said the same thing, this is a huge win politically for hamas. >> exactly. what we see, joe, from israel is all tactics and no strategy. yes, you degrade hamas militarily. that's a temporary achievement. they will rearm thanks to iran and others. in the meantime, you allow hamas to position itself as the sole

defender of palestinian interests. meanwhile, israelis have not done anything to essentially help the palestinian authority offer an alternative. we are seeing the radicalization of israel's 2 million arab minority. so you add all of this up, and you go how is this better off in the long run? i will be honest with you, i don't see it. the issue is not their right to protect themselves. of course that's there. the real question is what is their strategy? what is their definition of success? how is what they're doing now on gaza? doing that, it's not clear to me at all. we now before in the ambassador that is political coordinator at the mission of the state of palestine to the u.n. and, sir, your reaction to the concerns expressed by ambassador ron dermer? listen, we have over 400 americans killed, half of them

women and children. i think when you're saying this is a military operation against hamas, it doesn't stand scrutiny. and we've had four wars in the span of 12 years under that same pretext, i don't think this shows the military capabilities of hamas have been of good use over time or it has done anything except bring a lot of suffering to the palestinian people. 4,000 palestinians have been killed in these wars including 1,000 children. when is it time to say to israel enough is enough? >> and we have time for the next question. >> hi. nice to see you, ambassador. at the u.n., i'm very curious about whether you're seeing a difference in the way of biden administration is handling this issue at the u.s. versus the trump administration? obviously we know the united states recently stopped the most recent u.n. resolution from coming from going forward.

are you seeing -- do you see at all a shifting in the american position under when you're in talks or in conversations behind closed doors at the u.n. from biden to trump? or is the u.s. basically, is america-israeli policy as is playing out at the united nations under president biden still the exact same? is it same old, same old, or has there been a change? >> so nobody is like trump, let me start from there. i say where are they, those who proclaim they brought east to the middle east at their expense, where are they now? have you seen jerusalem most divided than it is today, more on fire than it is today? the demolishing of houses and safety of people, forcing palestinian people from their homes, that policy is continuing.

i won't compare anybody to that era where we've seen a lot of arrogance and a lot of harm done to the palestinians and i believe to israel as well. but what you're seeing is the same idea that when it comes to israel, you know, it's about israel is winning. we tried to convince israel, there's nothing we can do but try to talk to the parties and we even proclaimed our right to security to israel, which is an occupying power, which is killing civilians, and left unchecked, i was stunned by president biden saying i don't see an overreaction. we have entire families being killed. we have families where the mother, father, four or five or six children are being killed. i wish somebody asked the question now, now do you see it as an overreaction? do you see something wrong about killing 140 families, five, six years ago and now killing dozens of families? do you see a problem killing newborns and babies and saying this is about that? and in the security council we have seen the u.s. completely

isolated 14-1 and don't see the problem. i'm telling you tomorrow, people will have a field day with the u.s. when they come to speak about human rights and security council has a responsibility, when the council decided not to speak out, take action, not to scrutinize, even to speak out about what is happening and speaking of protection of civilians and speaking of the israeli occupation. >> with china now in the driver's seat on the security council, do you see a ceding of american influence on israel to china, particularly right now? >> i'm seeing the double standard harm credibility of the u.s. i'm seeing the u.s. is harming and they fought with bush for peace because they believed it was in the u.s. interest or israeli interest.

you are harming israel when you agree with netanyahu. >> ambassador, thank you so much for your perspective this morning. >> thank you very much, mr. ambassador. >> joe, this brings on very big set of conversations about this very live, very deadly conflict right now. >> it is. richard haass, your thoughts on what the palestinian ambassador to the united nations said, and also about the continued isolation of the united states at the u.n. >> two thoughts, joe. one is his own position is quite weak. the fact the palestinian authority has not been able to deliver anything continues to post own elections in the west bank, obviously doesn't represent the people of gaza. the dynamic, momentum and palestinian world is not in the favor of the palestinian authorities. so it's not exactly clear who exactly he represents, what he can deliver. yes, the united states is isolated. i don't understand why we're not

pressing harder for a cease-fire. it was strangely passive. i understand why we're not, you know, making it a major priority to bring about a two-station solution. the situation isn't right. the prerequisites aren't there. but we are strangely passive. this is an administration, joe, that's making a priority for standing up with democracy and human rights. we can't afford to be inconsistent. >> we are strangely passive. we are, of course, the biggest funder and biggest protector of israel and it seems politically if we're interested in israel's long-term security and health, we as good friends should pressure them to stop playing into hamas' hands. but, kasie hunt, i suspect joe biden is looking at the hill and looking at some divisions in the democratic party on the issue of israel right now. >> i think that's inescapable, joe. in some ways this is a split that is still kind of evolving

and developing. i think there's some uncertainty among the biden administration it seems in terms of how far they can push that before it becomes a huge problem for them. they've spent a lot of time worried about making sure the left flank is on board with the biden administration on domestic policy. this issue is obviously very emotional. alexander oscasio-cortez, using very charged language to talk about it. chuck schumer, who has been a friend of israel for his entire career, one of their major advocates, is under pressure from her. and so all of those dynamics contribute, i think, to this sense of uncertainty about just how forceful we're willing to be. >> kasie hunt, thank you so much for being on with us this morning. i will see you again here tomorrow. and in washington our thanks to helene cooper and richard haass. we will continue this important conversation tomorrow on "morning joe." that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. ♪♪

hi, there, i'm stephanie ruhle live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it is tuesday, may 18th, and we have to start with that breaking news from the middle east. this morning a rocket fired from gaza reportedly killed two people. it comes as the u.s. tries to step in to stop the escalating crisis. on monday president biden called israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu to personally express his support for a cease-fire. but this morning, israel is keeping up its efforts to pressure hamas militants. palestinians are observing a general strike in cease-fire operations. richard engel is on the west bank. richard, tell us about the situation there. >> so here in the west bank we're on the outskirts of ramallah. palestinians have come out to prott