hi, everyone. 4:00 in the east. the war on democracy of the republican opens another front. fulton county, georgia, seizing on the big lie. marrying some of the lunacy of mare copa county, arizona. a judge in georgia ruling that absentee ballots from the 2020 election can be unsealed and reviewed again by a group of elect terrors claiming fraud again. like they did in november. and like they did in december of last year. when the ex-president and the band of misfit conspiracy theorists traveling the country ranting about the stolen election only to have not one or two but three separate recounts and reviews of the vote find zero evidence of fraud. in fact last january lauchlt and investigators failed to find a single fraudulent absentee ballot in an audit of more than

15,000 voter signatures. back then the repeated claims to the contrary by the president and his crew prompted this reaction from georgia election official sterling. >> the reason i'm having to stand here today because there's people in positions of authority and respect who have said the votes didn't count and it is not true. there's a claim that 66,248 people below 18 voted. the actual number is zero. 243 people that voted without being registered. let's be clear about this. you can't do it. there's no shredding of ballots going on. that's not real. no one is changing parts or pieces from dominion voting machines. this is all easily provably false. yet the president persists. >> here we go again. the audit in georgia is an expected to involve that sketchy company of cyber ninjas in

arizona. georgia's review will be done under the supervision of a special master approved by the court. it can't change the outcome of the election obviously. it's been six months now but to get to the bottom of so-called suspicious activity by election officials. or rather, to sow more doubt in an election called the most secure. all this comes as maricopa county's ninjas gear up for battle. they stare down a lawsuit over the false claims. the database was not deleted. ask the gop board review, coming up empty for evidence of fraud that would have made any impact

on the outcome of the 2020 election, 70% of republicans in a recent poll still believe that president biden did not legitimately win the presidency. 87% believe voting laws aren't strict enough to restrict illegal votes from being cast. thags the rational in states to limit mail and election day voting. a sweeping republican backed movement rooted in the big lie. yet this weekend liz cheney who's staked the career on defending democracy by beating back that lie and shining a light on all its dangers this week refused to warn about these ones and passed up the opportunity to hold her own party accountable for baselessly undermining confidence in elections to come. here she is with our friend jonathan swan on axios on hbo. >> you don't see any linkage

between donald trump saying the election is stolen and republicans in the state legislatures rushing to putt in place the restrictive voter laws? >> you have to look at the specifics of the efforts. looking at the georgia laws there's been a lot said nationally about the georgia voter laws that's not true. >> what's the big problem in georgia to be solved by a new law and texas and florida? these laws are coming all around the states and like what are they solving for? >> i think you have to look at'm state law and what we can all -- >> you can't divorce them from the context. >> what we can agree is that what is happening right now is really dangerous. >> the big lie and all the republicans who continue to fuel it is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. jonathan swan is here fresh off that interview and joining is ab

stoddard with "real clear politics" and former senator claire mccaskill. jonathan, it is another stunning interview and almost trumpian in that section to confront her with the facts. the fact is there wasn't any fraud in georgia or florida or arizona so it has nothing to do with the specifics of the laws and the specific of the law in georgia the most egregious thing people feel is disempower those that held the line against donald trump. what they have in common is there were no problems, no voter fraud. >> the reason this is such an important conversation is because liz cheney is fighting or standing against donald trump and january 6 and saying that she is going to dedicate herself

to opposing the quote/unquote big lie that the election was stolen. she sort of has put this issue into a silo and she does not acknowledge what came before and what is coming after. as being connected to it. so the fact that -- you raised it in the intro. the most important statistic is that 70%, 7-0% of republican voters believe president biden is illegitimate. that didn't happen just because donald trump said a few things in 2020. this is the result of many years of the republican party talking about voter fraud, dwatding it electorate that this is a rampant problem and people in the inner cities voting four times. illegal immigrants. the different things. she doesn't acknowledge a linkage between that and what we see right now and then after the election we're seeing i think it's more than 400 now bills

voting bills that have been introduced in state legislatures. 90% supported by republicans. some supported in court by the republican national committee. why is the republican party doing such a broad scale effort if it was not something that they thought was in their self interest and beneficial to them? it begs belief to say they're not connected. >> liz cheney is one smart enough to know that there was no voter fraud. two, she's been around long enough to know folks like james baker and jimmy carter looked at it. it's been written about in the newspaper about how donald trump is the only one that came close to committing voter fraud. why is she fact immune? if you want to stake your career on rooting out the big lie and

she called it donald trump's crusade against democracy, the crusade against the democracy is in 47 states pushes voter suppression laws and seems like she'll lose the credibility against the assault on democracy. >> it did surprise me that she would not acknowledge any link between what -- because there manifestly is. there's no way that you can plausibly argue that all of these state legislatures, republican controlled are just out of a burst of spontaneous inspiration individually around the country are flowering of concern at unprecedented levels with no attachment whatsoever to the fact that the most powerful republican in the country has been telling everyone that there's voter fraud and some of these bills, some, not all of them, some have measures to deal with some of the problems that

trump said exists so it's really a bit of a stretch to kind of try to divorce these two things. >> claire mccaskill, i remember when we were all really in awe of the stand she took. i remain in awe of the stand she took. it cost her her position in leadership and it is dishonest to pick and choose among the things that bother you about the big lie. the problem with the big lie and the problem with making the opposition about the fears and concerns about the democracy is the arguably -- other than inspiring extremists who are according to department of homeland security inclined to carry out violent acts, the most egregious and far reaching things that the big lie is doing is suppressing the vote in 47 states. what do you think? >> let me explain this. liz cheney has been swept off the island and she is grasping

on to a very skinny tree that is trying to keep her on the island called republicans. and the way she is doing this is by basically embracing very important republican orthodoxy. this is not something that just happened with donald trump. for years the republican party has made part of their orthodoxy too many people are voting. we have to figure out a way to stop people from voting that don't vote for us. they've always ginned up this phony voter thing, always trying to do phony voter i.d. laws and stop people who may be more transient and less stable in terms of employment. basically people who traditionally voted against republicans and for democrats. the republican orthodoxy was

free trade. used to be we have to be careful how much money we spend in government. nope. they busted out the deficit in ways that people only dreamed of. so it is all gone. the only thing they stand for now as a party is making sure that people can't vote easily. i don't know what that says about their party but i don't think it's good because everybody in america is hearing that they don't want you to vote. that's going to make people want to vote. i don't think this will have a good ending for them or for liz cheney. >> claire, i would tell you what they think they're doing is making it harder for the same day registration is traditionally used by younger voters. college voters. the kind of voters that president obama sort of woke up and came out in historic numbers in '08. president biden. they're trying to suppress

people that found it easy to request an absentee ballot in a pandemic. they're trying to shrink the electorate to still win and clearly what they're doing. what's surprising is liz cheney is going along with it. >> it is surprising to go along with it. in for a penny, in for a pound. she's already said that donald trump is lying and he is fighting the constitution. that the republican trump crazies are at war against the constitution. but she is just not comfortable completely giving the back of the hand and this is my theory. i might be wrong. but i know this. i raised a bunch of kids and have grandchildren. the surest way to do something is to try to stop them from doing it. and there's a psychology here. >> yeah. >> i think there's psychology here. when i was little my mother did an unbelievably smart trick.

she said we couldn't go to the library. guess what we wanted to do? go to the library. she was a genius. if the republicans don't realize what they're saying to people and people hear it loud and clear. we'll try to make it as hard as possible for you to vote and i predict that makes it more energy behind people that they're trying to stop from voting to get them to the polls in the midterms. >> ab, the other sort of half of this is creating events that foment the lie. the big lie is not just lunacy that donald trump and i forget that guy's name -- lin wood and sidney powell and i think half sued by the voting machine companies but not just the lies told between november and january. the fake recounts are about the lies existing today.

they're about creating a sort of faux media event that today we have flipping through ballots and looking for bamboo. today we are flipping through ballots looking for things that hand recounts and bipartisan sanctioned audits and recounts didn't find. the georgia ballots, the fulton county ballots have been machine counted twice and i think hand recounted twice and there were no voter irregularities so why are the states letting the ballots go to fuel an extremist movement? >> right. the problem is that the senator's right. very clear that the politically informed once faced with the new restrictions are likely to be galvanized and raise the resources necessary to educate and registration the voters and find a way to turn out in narrow windows of opportunity with new rules and new layers of sort of barrier to entry. they can do that.

the average american is exhausted after the 2020 election and hear words like audit and find that ballots are opened up in these swing states and they hear terms like relitigating the last election they think that's credible and warranted. and so, they are not -- they don't want to follow the news day in, day out. they don't want to know about how thank goodness we have election officials in maricopa county pushing back. there won't be more like that. raffensberger a hero of the 2020 election whether he is secretary of state or not will be removed from the process on the state election board in georgia going forward so it's a partisan movement and no longer by a group of professional and

unbiassed election workers dedicated to the process and not an outcome. across the country we see people not only starting the audits but running for positions to do the bidding of the big lie and most americans just don't understand that this is happening. so the ones that are being told by stacey abrams, who are being informed about the new limitations, yes, it is likely to spur new turnout but on the whole the fact that they are not able to stop the steal to perfect the steal for 2022 and 2024 is lost on most of america. >> to your point, a.b. there's new reporting in politico that the republicans are now running for these offices, for this secretary of state spot. politico is writing republicans who sought to undercut or overturn president biden's election win are launching campaigns to become the state's top election officials.

alarming local office holders and opponents who warn about the candidates taking big roles and running the vote. the campaigns set up the possibility that politicians that taken steps to undermine the faith in the system could be the ones running it. i don't think it's that people don't understand it. i think that you got -- i read the poll number. 70% of people believe a lie about it and then democrat who is are largely outnubbed in state legislatures to organize and figure out how to get around restrictive voter laws and then how to run against the republican secretaries of state and all fair and above board but the republican side is in bad faith. the they're running to have an outsized role that is being enhanced by the voter suppression laws. and running on a lie. how do you protect the democracy against that, a.b.?

>> unfortunately a lot of election officials are beleaguered and wiped out after the process of this incredibly transparent and successful election in a pandemic and then the onslaught of the lies and propaganda campaign to take over election boards shouting election integrity and election voter fraud so a lot of them are retiring. the path of least resistance. they have people outside the house threatening their lives. i'm worried that there is going to be very, very likely a republican majority in the congress and said this on your show before. i don't think they'll certify a legitimate democrat win in 2024 and i don't know how democrats if republican are the majority in certifying it to trust them so there is a combination of kind of most of the country

tuning in what's going on. the takeover of the state parties by trump world and then the idea that if republicans take power and the math helps them do that next year you look at a very different scenario at the next presidential election. worst than we had this time. >> jonathan, i don't mean to put this on liz cheney. she is in the universe of a few. it is her and adam kinzinger, mitt romney. i want to read you something that perry bacon writes about the danger to the democracy. ask you if you think liz sees it this way. by far the biggest problem is the republican party. presented with a clear chance to move on from trumpism after january 6 the gop continued its drift toward anti-democratic action. the future looks scary. the republicans are laying the groundwork to refuse to certify

a 2024 democratic presidential victory should the gop hold a house majority. i don't think i'm overly alarmed. do you think liz cheney sees it that way, jonathan? >> i don't think she would co-sign that. what cheney has tried to do and again i think it really strains creditty to say this is a trump problem. one man, his problem. we need to excise him from the party. he is a kahne ericsson. cut him out. we only need to go back to what the party used to be like and from a policy standpoint that's really the bush/cheney years and from a truth telling standpoint. she doesn't acknowledge that there's broader structural

connections to some of the arguments that claire laid out and then also the efforts post election. i think she is in a very small minority of republicans who are elected officials willing to stand up to donald trump but it only goes so far. >> so wonderful interview. i encourage everyone to watch it if they haven't yet. thank you both for starting us off today. claire isn't going anywhere. today marks an end to the national guard security mission that began when thousands of trump supporters attacked and stormed the u.s. capitol. will there be a full accounting of what happened? or will the gop successfully whitewash the insurrection? another example of paranoia. this time the legal counter intelligence operation deep inside the commerce department collecting information on hundreds of american citizens.

how will the biden administration deal with claims of retribution? all those stories and more when we continue. tonight, i'll be eating a pork banh mi

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we have something new in american history, that is a political party defined by the terror it feels for its own voters. that's the republican party right now. every official is frightened of the voters and doesn't respect and like the voters and afraid a vote for this is seen as an insult to the 45th president why

i would like to see january 6 burned into the american mind as firmly as 9/11 because it was that scale of shock to the system. and i think that there will be a commission but it is controversial for that reason. >> that was conservative columnist george will on why the republican party is largely opposed to a bipartisan 9/11-style commission. terror of the voters. there's a dire and ongoing threat to the country. we'll find out this week if america gets that commission and with it an accountable of the inrecollection. the u.s. senate will take up the issue. one of the most visible reminders is coming to an end. the thousands of national guard troops deployed at the capitol are heading home as the threat still lurks over the capitol and the lawmakers who work there.

"the washington post" is reporting that members of congress are raising the alarm about threats to the security back in their home districts. quote as house members head out of washington anger at each other is turning into fear of what could await them back home. several democrats said they're concerned that the toxic political culture on capitol hill could greet them back home as the communities open up, with the pandemic waning and vaccination rates rising there's pressure for in-person events. joining our conversation is frank fig luizzi and also joining us is carol linnik. reporter and author of "zero fail." plus claire mccaskill is still with us. all three msnbc contributor. frank, i want to start with you and this "the washington post" reporting about the threat possibly following lawmakers

back home to their districts. what do you think? >> it's quite clear that the protective element of what the capitol police do for a living is going to be pre-eminent. they have to worry not only about the campus around the capitol but more than ever before the accompaniment home and the bolstering of physical office and residential security for each and every member of congress. claire i'm sure will tell you way back in my memory in law enforcement it was when there's a threat, intelligence, when there's something specific we're going to maybe come home with you. we may travel to a degree. we're going to give you guidance on home and office security in the district but slowly but surely become almost a majority that have to engage with the plain clothes protective detail

of the capitol police. it's protective executive dig that tear protection. >> claire, let me read a little bit of the most recent dhs bulletin on the threat. violent extremists may seek to exploit the easing of covid restrictions across the u.s. to conduct attacks against a broader range of targets. after capacity limits reduced opportunities. online their ties across sites known to be frequented by individuals who hold violent extremist idesologies have called for violence against elected officials. i'll say, it is uncomfortable to read that out loud but this was made public for a reason. so that lawmakers could do what frank just described. do you think they're scared?

>> i think they're concerned. i have seen that threats against members of congress are up 100% over the last few moths. this is one of the symptoms of what's going on in our political discourse and it is ugly. i got to tell you. i'm really sad about this. there's very little about my former job i miss. and i have so thoroughly enjoyed getting to be friends with you and so many others that we have a chance to talk to viewers about politics together. but i will tell you what i do miss. i miss the interaction with people. i was somebody who believed very much into walking into a county that probably going to vote against me 80/20, opening up the doors saying i'm coming and ask me any question you want. and those -- that free flow of information and questions and listening and answers between

constituents and elected officials are such an important part of holding office and what i worry about is this atmosphere is going to give those lawmakers who are uncomfortable being held accountable an excuse to hide under the desks and never interact with people who want to tell them about the child care problems, they can't afford the prescription drugs and that's what really worries me about this. not just the threat but it will do to the exchange of information in a democracy that up until now has been one that has been all about meeting with your con sit wepts and the first amendment back and forth between constituents and elected officials. >> claire, the solution is sort of hiding in plain sight. right? george will laid it out there. republicans and he used the word

deliberately, feel terror about their voters but they're terrified because they lied to them. they lied to them about the result of the election which is why states are now looking at ballots for the fifth, and sixth time and if you believe the lies of course you are angry. if up in the senate would you talk to the purveyors of the big lie? what should be done? >> they all know it. there is not a republican senator who doesn't fully understand that donald trump and his supporters created this big lie out of whole cloth. there was no voter fraud. no voter threat why what happened on january 6 they own why they can try to point and hide and lie and say i don't want to talk about it but they

know. they absolutely know. and i don't know how you get this fixed. until you get people who are willing like the handful of republicans who have stepped up to say maybe this guy and the way he goes about leadership is not the best for our country and certainly not the best for our party. >> carol, since the beginning i have only been able to understand this through the security lions. -- lens. the politics is lost on me. but on the security question, i keep going back to 9/11 and a senior intelligence official from the sort of post-9/11 era who was investigated by congress and involved in the investigations by the 9/11 commission said imagine if one of the two parties didn't know what was in the pdb, didn't want to know what's briefed to policy

makers before 9/11 and didn't want to know who did it and didn't want to know where bin laden was hiding, didn't want to know that the taliban was harboring him and didn't want to pursue him. one of the two parties are not interested in getting to the roots. >> i really love that comparison because it makes me remember the incredible hit politically that president bush took. as a president, he wanted the answers. one of the answers that was uncovered in that 9/11 commission incredibly bipartisan and basically an act of patriotism to join against a act of war and one of the things uncovered in that deep, deep investigation is president bush had been briefed on the possibility of this strange person nobody really was paying

much atense to, osama bin laden, having some chatter about using planes to attack america. it was important for us to know that. and the president didn't at the time try to resist anyone learning it. it was politically unpleasant for him but he didn't resist that. what's different here is lawmakers, republican lawmakers, were literally blamed on the day of january 6 by the democratic colleagues, you started this. you stoked this. you helped create it and they know that they are at least some of very specific ones know that that is true and a former president who still has a hold over this party also unlike president bush doesn't want all of the facts to be known in this case. >> it is just, frank, if you can sort of close the loop on the security question. can you protect the homeland

from a threat that one of the two parties is not interested in understanding or protecting the homeland from? >> i think the short answer is you could do it extremely difficult with extreme difficulty and likely to lead to things that the american public is going to regret and doesn't want to see happen so if you don't have the support of one entire party and its leadership and they're working guest the security efforts you have to do some things under the table, some thing that is the constitution may frown upon and so we don't want that happening. we want a bipartisan posture. this is what's so disturbing me. the national guard detail is lifted from the capitol. right? your viewers might think that's great meaning that the threat eased up. what about the threat and risk picture has eased up? you get threat and risk from

assessing available intelligence. what has changed about the intelligence picture when dhs just a couple weeks ago issued a bulletin saying the threat remains. we see as we investigate the insurrection evidence of the threat moving forward. i don't see that change. i see the house passed a large budget enhancement for the capitol police but the senate hasn't passed it yet. we need hard questions about what's going to happen for security moving forward. how the fbi, dhs and doj writ large deal with what's becoming a permanent insurgency in our country. >> i want to explain the numbering on the screen. the house passed a legislation to for a bipartisan commission with the support of 35 republicans. here's the senate gop stands on the same legislation.

four senate republicans expressed openness. 11 are still considering it. 25 oppose. ten are unknown. we'll stay on it. nobody's going anywhere. when we come back, how a little known security unit deep within the commerce department turned into an operation with no legal boundaries tasked with rooting out dissenters of the previous president and the administration. details of just how far up it went coming up and exploes ifr -- explosive new reporting from "the washington post" is next. ". i'll give you a hand. and i'm gonna put lisa on crutches! wait, what? said she's gonna need crutches. she fell pretty hard. you might want to clean that up, girl. excuse us. when owning a small business gets real, progressive helps protect what you built with customizable coverage. -and i'm gonna -- -eh, eh, eh. -donny, no. -oh.

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a scathing new "the washington post" report out today reveals that in recrept years under the ex-president and the of the criticized commerce department secretary ross the security unit responsible for protecting the department evolved into a counter intelligence operation. secretly collecting information on hundreds of americans on the inside and out. "the washington post" sean bogert writes investigations and threat management service covertly searched employees' offices at night, ran broad kee word searches of their email and scours social media for comments about the census. and one instance the unit opened

a case on a 68-year-old retiree in florida who tweeted that the census run by the commerce department would be ma in it lated to benefit the trump party. we're back with frank, carol and claire. carol, this story reads like a -- i don't know. something fictional. tell me more about the reporting. >> what i think is so striking and sums up this great reporting by my colleague sean on the investigation gaitive team was a former supervisor in the commerce department who said it sounds like someone in this unit had watched too many episodes of ": impossible" and may date me a little bit to use that quote but it totally fits in the trump investigation which is loyal cabinet secretaries heard the president loud and clear. he wanted investigations of people considered disloyal. he believed there was a deep

state trying to undo him. it was federal employees following the law and wanted them found and rooted out and tossed out on their ear even if it is against the law to fire them and fits in that terrible pattern but this itms group what i also am worried about as i learned at the reporting is that it took "the washington post" -- we're in may -- took them ferreting this out and presenting it to the current administration, the current commerce department, before they discovered huh oh, this is still going on. when the reporter shared this information the unit was shut down two days later so there are a lot of things going on at the current team may not be aware of and this is just one more worrisome one that was uncovered. >> claire, i'll pull back the curtain a little bit. there's consternation that we

cover the ex-administration but we are learning just how corrupt they were and having a shortened transition in which covid was raging, there wasn't time to have landing teams to go and unearth the depths of the corruption. it was all about the efforts on the consensus. concealing why the federal judge involved why not in compliance. ross the trump official who keeps watchdogs up at night around the obstruction. the warrant statistics isn't slowing down. the census will determine the shape of elections for years and there's some serious journalism

just beginning to pull the curtain back on the corruption of the one not ignored agency but wasn't news as often. >> as a ranking member on the committee of jurisdiction over the census i was in the room when he would lie by omission and misled them on the involvement of making the decision whether or not they were going to putt a question on the census about people's immigration status. and the guy was napping a lot. his velvet slippers and not reading the reports and this is what -- if i was to give one piece of advice to people in the biden administration, pull 0 the inspector general reports for your agency. read them.

in an inspector general report they said this part of the commerce department was acting illegally. you can't have a duffel bag with masks and lock picks and hair nets. you think i'm kidding? this was in "the washington post" story. you can't have a duffel bag with that stuff if you don't have jurisdiction to prosecute crimes or investigate crimes. so they were completely off the reservation. this is bonkers, scary stuff. all of the people that run departments now need to pull out the ig reports and make thing other things aren't hiding that will bite them like this article did. >> frank, carol, claire, thank you for shedding some light on all of this. frank's new podcast is available tomorrow. give that a listen. we will here. more cleanup for the current administration. former ambassador sondland is

suing the u.s. government for legal fees incured when he was a westbrook in the first impeachment trial. reinbursment he never got because he told the truth about trump and ukraine. trump and ukraine. claim your seventy-five-dollar credit when you post your first job at indeed.com/promo your mission: stand up to moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. and take. it. on... with rinvoq. rinvoq a once-daily pill can dramatically improve symptoms... rinvoq helps tame pain, stiffness, swelling. and for some, rinvoq can even significantly reduce ra fatigue.

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mr. giuliani's requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a white house visit for president zelensky. i know that members of this

committee frequently frame these complicated issues in the form of a simple question. was there a quid pro quo? as i testified previously, with regard to the requested white house call and the white house meeting, the answer is yes. >> remember that? that was the bombshell testimony from one of the key witnesses in the former president's first impeachment trial. his name's former u.s. ambassador gordon sondland. he's there accusing the ex-president and his allies of pressuring ukraine to investigate then presidential candidate joe biden and his son, hunter, before they would release that foreign aid. sondland is now suing mike pompeo and the federal government for $1.8 million in legal fees from that probe, alleging that pompeo reneged on his promise to cover all of sondland's legal fees after sondland flipped on trump and delivered that damaging testimony on what he knew about

a quid pro quo between trump and ukraine. a spokesman for pompeo tells nbc news, the lawsuit is ludicrous. the department of justice has not commented on the lawsuit. joining us is michael schmidt, "new york times" washington correspondent and an msnbc national security contributor. the lawsuit makes clear this is about a promise pompeo made. let me read a little bit from it. it says if pompeo did not have the authority to bind the government, pompeo went rogue and acted outside the course and scope of his employment and duties, making a promise in his personal capacity that was not the kind of act he was employed to perform. and not motivated by a desire to serve as the leader of the department of state, instead it was self-serving made entirely of political reasons for his own survival in the hopes that ambassador sondland would not implicate him or others by his testimony. what is behind this lawsuit? is it just about fees or is it this implication that pompeo would have paid them if sondland hadn't implicated trump and by

extension pompeo? >> that's essentially what it seems like sondland is trying to say in this thing. it's that he is being penalized because he testified in ways that pompeo didn't want him to, and the ways that were adverse to the trump administration. look, i think that sondland racked up a big legal bill here, and i don't expect many people to feel that bad for him about that, but the question here is whether pompeo basically said, yeah, we'll do this and then walked away from the deal when he realized what sondland was going to say and how damaging that testimony was going to be and that sondland was not just acting himself as a rogue actor, that he was out there actually doing what the administration wanted him to do. >> if the lawsuit proceeds and they take discovery of pompeo, will they be able to find out if

pompeo's commitment to pay his fees only held if sondland toed sort of the trump-pompeo line? they were both on that call with zelensky. >> i'm sure. look, if it gets that far, i'm sure that that will -- that would be a question. i think what we have to think about here is that, you know, will the biden justice department defend pompeo? will this create personal legal fees for pompeo or not? and that is because pompeo was secretary of state when this happened so he was working for the federal government, so will the justice department defend him in suit because he was a government employee, or will they say, you have to go out on your own and hire your own lawyer to defend yourself in this suit? and there are different examples of this that have come up where the biden justice department has had to make determinations, like whether it was in some of these freedom of information act cases or such, whether to go to court to essentially defend members of the trump administration.

>> sondland ended up not being what trump and pompeo thought he would be. do we know if pompeo promised to pay for any of the other impeachment witnesses' legal fees? >> i've never seen anything along the lines of this accusation that came up. and i do not -- i have not seen this issue either come up before much either where the federal government is paying for an individual's legal fees. look, sondland had very high-end representation. he was represented by bob luskin, a long-time, well-established washington lawyer who did a lot of work for him to make sure that sondland's 17 hours or so of testimony, that he testified as well as he could, but at the end of the day, $1.8 million is very, very expensive for an individual's legal fees, and if every person in the federal government that needed a lawyer had a bill like that, the government would be on the hook for a lot of expensive legal fees.

>> just amazing. traveling back in time. mike schmidt, thank you so much for joining us on this. coming up later tonight on this network, on "the beat" with ari melber, three big names you will recognize on the continued legal troubles for trump and his family and his circle. michael cohen will be there, jennifer weisselberg will be there and stephanie wolkoff, all three together on "the beat" at 6:00 p.m. do not miss it. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. starts after break. don't go anywhere. no-no-no-no-no please please no. ♪ i never needed anyone. ♪ front desk. yes, hello... i'm so... please hold. ♪ those days are done. ♪ i got you. ♪ all by yourself. ♪ go with us and find millions of flexible options. all in our app. expedia. it matters who you travel with.

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♪♪ beyond reprehensible. this is -- i don't even have words to describe how disappointing it is to see this hyperbolic speech that, frankly, amps up and plays into a lot of the antisemitism that we've been seeing in our society today. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in the east. that was republican congressman

peter meijer of michigan, one of just a teeny little handful of people in his party calling out one of their own. marjorie taylor greene. after her abhorrent comments equating speaker pelosi's decision to keep a mask mandate in place on the house floor to the utter horror suffered by jews during the holocaust where 6 million jews lost their lives. 60% of the world's jewish population at the time. greene's comments so egregious that we will not air them here on this show. congresswoman liz cheney called them evil lunacy. adam kinzinger said it was absolute sickness and former republican representative from virginia, our friend denver riggleman said, comparing wearing masks to the abuse of the holocaust is a not so subtle dim in addition of the horrors experienced by millions. it's a grotesque idiocy mixed with lack of self-awareness. the american jewish congress called on greene to retract her comments and say, such comparisons demean the holocaust

and contaminate american political speech. yet she did the opposite. when pressed about her comments, greene said this. >> i stand by all of my statements. i said nothing wrong. and i think any rational jewish person didn't like what happened in nazi germany and any rational jewish person doesn't like what's happening with overbearing mask mandates and overbearing vaccine policies. >> the georgia congresswoman doubling down there on her anti-semitic rhetoric, stupid rhetoric. as the country's experiencing an upsetting rise in anti-semitic violence. the latest conflict between israel and gaza inflamed tensions in the u.s. and the antidefamation league was here last week, jonathan writes in a new letter that they're seeing a, quote, dangerous and drastic surge in anti-jewish hate right here at home since the violence in the middle east broke out. an analysis on twitter done by the adl found more than 17,000 tweets which used variations of

the phrase, "hitler was right" between may 7th and may 14th and on the ground, they reported 193 incidents of anti-semitic violence in the week after the crisis began, that's up from 131 the previous week. the adl was among the five jewish groups who wrote a letter to president biden asking him for help while offering solutions to fight the uptick in attacks. a white house official confirms those groups are now working with the administration to condemn and respond to the disturbing rise in incidents. today, we saw president biden denounce anti-semitic crimes saying in a tweet, the recent attacks on the jewish community are despicable and they must stop. i condemn this hateful behavior at home and abroad. it's up to all of us to give hate no safe harbor. a rise of hate crimes against jews, a republican congresswoman spewing hateful remarks, and not a peep from the house gop leader, kevin mccarthy. he wasted no time, not one

minute, not one news cycle, in ousting liz cheney from her leadership post just two weeks ago for telling the truth about the deadly insurrection. the change.org petition organized by u.s. army veteran, former republican and former trump supporter david weissman, calls on mccarthy to expel greene from congress after just two days, it already has 50,000 signatures. it's a start. republican leadership silent on anti-semitic comments in their ranks as the country experiences an alarming rise in attacks against jews is where we start this hour. sam stein is here, white house editor for politico and after much public outcry about your long absence, john heilemann is back, host and executive producer of showtime's "the circus" and host of the "hell and high water" podcast. former national security advisor to president obama is here. john heilemann, i know you're working on other projects but

we've missed you, and so have our viewers. >> nicole, you can't imagine, i miss you every day. every day. and just so everybody knows, are we in a fight right now? are we having a fight that i don't know about? are we having a fight? i don't think we are. >> we're not in a fight. you're doing your -- you're writing a book. i think people know that. that's out there. >> good. >> i'm glad you're back, though, on a day like today because i feel like we have long expletive-laden conversations on your podcast about how bad are they. they're this bad, you know, x, right? about the republicans in the post-trump era. i think you and i might be in the minority in thinking that they're worse now than they were over the last four years. it's just staggering in 2021 to come on and start a broadcast with a rise in hate crimes and include among them a republican house member who kevin mccarthy went out on a limb to protect and keep in his ranks.

>> yeah. nicole, you know, it's hard -- i never like to -- you and i both think that it's appalling now, for sure. i don't know -- i mean, it was so bad for the last four years that it's kind of like, can you measure something either less than zero or more than infinite? it's like there's some kind of quantum physics problem with that. but they are, you know, anybody who had any thought things would get any way, even a minuscule, you know, micrometer better once trump left has been -- should be recognizing that it's not gotten better and i think it has in some ways gotten worse and you listen to marjorie taylor greene, this is one of these times when you have to be able to hold two things in your head, one of which is that the comments are appalling and disgusting and anti-semitic. the other is that she's just such a moron, it's not clear to me, fully, that she understands exactly the depth of how horrible what she's saying is. when you listen to her talk about it, try to explain it, you come up against the fact that she's just a pin head and i think she says these things

about -- draws these comparisons. i don't think she has the moral complexity to understand why jews find these comments so appalling. i don't think she has the kind of -- she doesn't have the kind of moral sense to be able to understand how offensive what she's doing is, but i will also say this, which is that, you know, yet again, when you listen to these comments that someone like this makes, you're reminded of just what a bunch of snowflakes this republican party is. the core of her complaint is basically -- and i think in her head, she somehow believes that being asked to wear a mask on that floor of the house, that there's concerns about, you know, we're trying to still keep you from getting sick, we're worried that some people are not vaccinated, that having mask mandates that continue going forward, she actually thinks in some way there is some equivalence between that and being put on a train and sent to a gas chamber. beyond the stupidity and the moral bankruptcy of it, it is just such an incredibly whiny,

ridiculous thing to say. i am so put upon. wearing this mask, it's so terrible that i'm going to draw an analogy to the holocaust. i mean, could you be more of a snowflake in addition to being a moron and a totally morally bankrupt moron at that. you couldn't be more of a snowflake than to complain in that way. it blows my mind. >> it blows my mind too, and sam stein, you -- i have something here that you wrote that makes me cry. ben rhodes, you wrote something that makes me swear. i'm going to start with sam stein's, something you wrote in 2018 when we were talking about the shooting at the synagogue and i believe most of us were assembled. watching a stream of young men carrying torches, chanting, jews will not replace us, makes you question just how comfortable you should be in certain communities. watching news reports of a congregation of conservative jews being shot to death on the sabbath makes you revisit your decision to raise your child as

a jew. the shooter was targeting the seamlessness with which the jewish community has fit into america's social fabric. he wanted that younger me to not be so flippant about antisemitism, to not be so removed from the atrocities that a companied jews elsewhere. i will raise my son jewish and though i admit to feeling conflicted at the current moment, i know i will do so proudly because people, to do otherwise, is to allow this monster to determine our people's collective identity. it was so personal, and it was so moving, and we found it and thought it was appropriate for a day like today. but just on the broader issue in the news of this rise in hate crimes, and the video's horrific, i'm not going to play it again, but they're playing out on the streets of big american cities. >> well, thank you for bringing that up. i am reminded of that piece today as you watch these videos of u.s. cities where

anti-semitic hate crimes are happening, and it's caused, on a personal level, a lot of reflection from me about what it means to be a jewish american. i don't think it's breaking new ground to say that jewish americans are having some difficulty figuring out what our posture should be as a nation towards israel, what our correct israel policy should be, whether what's happening in israel is feeding into some of the rise of anti-semitic but also whether it's important to have israel as a beacon of jewish identity in a strong, secure state as a refuge should the antisemitism that we've seen throughout history rise in places where we never expected it, like the united states. will jews like myself or my children or their children eventually have to go to a strong jewish state? these are the conversations that jews have, never more so than in the wake of instances of antisemitism like we're seeing today and certainly like we saw in the aftermath of the tree of

life synagogue shooting in 2018. it is, you know, it's comforting to see politicians rush to decry the antisemitism that we've seen. at the same time, you put it in the frame of what marjorie taylor greene said, to diminish the holocaust in a way like she did makes you wonder, not only if our lawmakers know their history but if they understand the full impact of the words that they're uttering. the holocaust is something sacred, deep, and profound and incredibly hurtful still for jews everywhere. to equate it to a debate over wearing a mask to prevent a highly infectious and deadly disease is, frankly, insulting. and it's, you know, the hope we have here, i suspect, is that more politicians will speak out and denounce it. but until that happens, you live

a little bit in fear that our -- the people who we've entrusted with power don't quite understand the depth of what's happening today. >> sam, if you'll allow me, let me just push a little farther on this. john heilemann just raised this concept of holding two thoughts in our head at once. why are we struggling as a country to hold the two thoughts that any hate crime, any anti-semitic language, let alone physical violence, is abhorrent, zero tolerance, and the media or citizens of either the republican or democratic party are free to have policy critiques of bibi netanyahu. that seems to be where everyone, and i will just say this, including the media, is sort of wrapped around this axle of those two things are in conflict. how did we get here? >> well, i could take probably 30 minutes to tell you or to -- >> take your time. it's really important.

>> i think for starters, there's a lengthy history, obviously, of antisemitism, of cultural bigotry directed towards jews. you can't simply remove that. but in terms of the modern era and how we're talking about these things, one, i think we've come to a place where social media, our cable ecosystem, basically facilitates these conversations in the most basic binary, divisive frames that you can have. it's very difficult to talk about israel-palestine or antisemitism on these platforms and i resist doing so, largely because i know that the blowback will be intense and that you really cannot have a nuanced conversation about this stuff. so i find myself actually resisting talking about it and i do think that that contributes to allowing some of the more radical voices to emerge. when people who are -- when people are resistant to having a sane, nuanced conversation, it

creates a void, and into that void step people like marjorie taylor greene. i don't think that's the entire reason for why we are where we are, but i do think that has a big role to play here. >> well, ben rhodes, it's not marjorie taylor greene that's really the lede here. the buried lede is what we said next. that no one said anything. kevin mccarthy, to 5:00 p.m., when we came on the air, had said nothing. i named the three republicans who condemned her. they're familiar names to viewers of this program. not as an indicator of their heroics or moral clarity necessarily, but as an indicator of the political depravity of the rest of the republican party. how are marjorie taylor greene's comments still standing? >> well, nicole, i mean, i think part of what's so disturbing, and sam just spoke very eloquently to this. you have these different strains of antisemitism out there that

are equally virulent. any antisemitism, given the history, is absolutely abhorrent and needs to be condemned. and so you see, you know, those who may think that they're sympathizing with the palestinians bleeding into this antisemitism against all jews. people have a responsibility to condemn that and call that out. people who are supportive of certain palestinian aspirations and critical of some israeli policies, in particular, have a responsibility to call out when we see this morphing into attacks not just in this country but around the world. at the same time, and again, this is part of what is so, i think, alarming to people who have this in their family history, as i do, like sam, you know, my -- some of my family was impacted by the holocaust. we have this far-right trend. jews will not replace us being chanted in the streets of charlottesville, the tree of life shooting in part because the folks at the synagogue were helping refugees, this

nationalism that has returned to the discourse so you feel like this is coming from a different direction. and just as i was saying that people have a responsibility to call this out when sympathy for palestinians in the recent gaza conflict spills into this kind of completely abhorrent antisemitism, that needs to be called out. so do people on the right need to call this out in their ranks, and yes it's marjorie taylor greene, but it's something bigger than that, nicole, because this has been brewing in the kind of white nationalist movement in this country for a long time now, and we've seen it. we've seen it in violence, at the tree of life synagogue, in the streets of charlottesville and other american cities and unless you have people with some credibility in these communities coming this out and saying, this is completely out of bounds, this should have no home base in any political movement in this country, there's going to be an increasing danger. so i think it's just incumbent on everybody, obviously, president biden, but this is not something that can be done by the government alone. this has to be done in our

communities to reject this kind of hate as having no place at all in the united states or really anywhere in the world today. >> and what does that look like, ben sfloeds rhodes? what is that sort of whole of society look like? because you're right, this white house can't do this by themselves. they can't take on from the top down a fight against domestic violent extremism that is further incentivized by these b.s., you know, audits in arizona. there's a new one sprouting up in georgia. so they've now got to worry about extremism being animated by new acts that further the big lie. you've got this rise in hate crimes against jewish americans. you've got a rise in hate crimes against asian-americans because the ex-president insisted on calling it the wuhan flu. what does this president do about the mess that the ex-president and his party have made of the country's divisions? >> well, look, i think what a president can always do, first and foremost, is model a certain kind of behavior, model

absolutely zero tolerance for this kind of thing and model the kind of empathy and understanding that can bring communities together. and then i think more broadly, we have to think about how do we express solidarity with one another when we're dealing with this kind of challenge? i think when it comes to some of the recent instances that seem to be connected to the gaza war, some of the most important voices that have been out there condemning antisemitism are palestinian voices because they should be listened to by people who may think that somehow they're helping the palestinian cause by doing this. they're not. what they're doing is just beyond the pale. and similarly, i think on the right, look, the reality is that we see, you know, instances of this spreading ideology online. we see instances where it feels normalized. the problem with the marjorie taylor greene saying this is she's invested with the credibility of an elected representative. so when people hear that kind of garbage from her, it seems like it matters. it seems like even though we may think, rightly, that she's, as john said, a pinhead, she's also

a member of congress and that's why republicans have to be sending a message to their own constituents and their own communities that this is not who we are. this has no place in any political movement in the united states today. we just reject this categorically and we're not playing games around it. we're not trying to kind of excuse what she said in any way, shape, or form, and so i think all of us, across the political spectrum, across our different communities, have to do the extra work of speaking to those constituencies where people might listen to us. and i think on the right, time and again, we've seen that when there's an opportunity for people to do that, yeah, it's mitt romney, it's liz cheney, it's the same people. we need different people to be stepping forward on this as well. >> you know, john heilemann, i don't know if you saw the tape we played in the last hour of george will describing republicans as feeling terror from their own voters. that feels like a copout for why kevin mccarthy won't deal with

marjorie taylor greene who's been harassing congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez in the halls of congress, who is brazenly anti-semitic. she doubled down. we didn't play the original comments but she said, i'm anti-semitic and i'm staying anti-semitic. that's the point of the doubling down. she's essentially waving a red flag in front of kevin mccarthy and saying, come get me. does he have anything in him to try to eradicate sort of this fountain of antisemitism and extremism and lunacy within his caucus? >> no. and there are a few things to say about it, nicole. one is, let's start with george will. i understand what he's saying. he's trying to say -- he's trying to make a point about the fact that republican representatives are afraid in the political sense of their own voters, so they're cowering. he's describing them as cowards. he's saying they are terrorized by their voters so instead of

leading, they are following. they are doing -- they have views, maybe, that are at odds with their constituents but they're so afraid of losing their seats in primary elections that they capitulate and they're fundamentally abdicating leadership. i think he's trying to be critical of them. i think we do know there are some instances where there are literally members of congress who are afraid in the sense that they think their lives are in jeopardy, with some of their crazier voters, so there's that. but i think it definitely lets them too much off the hook because i think even though george is being critical of them, george will is being critical of them, i think it's not -- it's not, you can't -- by using the language of terror, it makes it sound like it's okay. well, of course, you capitulate to terrorists because it's like they have a gun to your head. they don't have a gun to your head. all they have to your head is the threat of voting you out of office and that is nothing. that's a career change. that is go work at a washington law firm, go be a lobbyist, go write a book, go on the speaking circuit, go work for fox news. there's a million ways to make money.

that's all you're talking about. maybe you lose an election. who cares? so, this, when it's -- when this is on the line, it's pretty -- it makes it particularly clear because this is a case where you need to stand up to the hate, and this is -- the second answer to your question. of course kevin mccarthy doesn't have anything in him to do this because the entirety of the thing that animates now, the republican party, which is to say, the thing that george will is talking about, what is the republican party? it's now -- its basest part of its base and the basest part of its base is animated by hate, and it's very hard to make a distinction between one kind of hate and another kind of hate. if you're kevin mccarthy, you start denouncing hate, where are you going to stop? once you start to denounce this kind of hate and you take a stand, you now -- you're now surrounded by all kinds of hate and the only thing that runs the gop is hate. it's now a big giant hate machine. so, of course he can't denounce her for this because once he

denounces her for this, where are you going to stop? you have to denounce the entire party because that's all it is. that's all it is, a big, ugly hate machine. >> john heilemann, i have missed you. sam stein, i'm very, very grateful to you for being personal and going there with us today. thank you both for starting us off this hour. ben is sticking around. when we return, it's being called a state-sponsored hijacking, the strongman leader of belarus forcing down a commercial airliner under false pretenses, all to arrest an opposition journalist. the story and the swift condemnation by the u.s. and jurp is next. on the eve of the anniversary of the murder of george floyd, what has changed and what has not changed in the pursuit of racial justice in this country? "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues ter a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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late this afternoon, european leaders agreed to impose sanctions on belarus and to bar eu airlines from flying through their air space following what they're calling a state hijacking of a passenger plane and the subsequent arrest of an opposition journalist. it was aggressive action perpetrated by an authoritarian strongman, belarusian president alexander lukashenko. the plane was passing through belarusian air space on its way from athens to lithuania when they insisted they'd encountered a bomb threat. upon landing, surprise, surprise, no bomb, no threat,

but belarusian security officials did happen to find a dissident of that country aboard, a prominent opposition journalist who was promptly arrested along with his girlfriend. we're back with ben rhodes. ben, tell us more about this story and tell us what we know about this dissident. >> well, you know, he's a journalist who also had a role in helping through his telegram channel to advance the pro-democracy movement after the last election in belarus and what lukashenko does, he's basically a putin satellite. just as putin tried to make examples out of opponents like navalny, that's what's happening here. you had someone board a plane on greece where the belarusian opposition is largely based these days and under a completely absurd false pretense, land the plane to detain this guy where he could be facing severe reputation, up to the death penalty for the

kinds of charges they're leveling against him. this is both a challenge to obviously this individual who could suffer greatly, to the belarusian opposition, but more broadly, this is once again putin and one of his cronies essentially shattering any sense of international norms because if you can ground planes to suit authoritarians, i mean, we've all been on planes that have flown over the air space of one autocratic government or another. imagine living in a world where that is normalized and that's just part of what happens. that's why this response from the u.s. and europe really has to be forceful in demonstrating that you've crossed every line here. >> and what is the white house policy process -- what would you guess it looks like today behind the scenes? >> well, i think what it looks like is there's some basic steps you want to take out of the gate and you want to be seen to be acting in coordination with europe because us acting together is going to be much more impactful than acting alone and i think a starting place, because it was a crime, essentially a terrorist

hijacking by state that took place in international air space, is to address this issue with aviation and say, if this is how you're going to act, planes are not going to fly over your air space, your airline cannot land at other airports and you're cut off from international air travel but that has to be the beginning and i'm sure what they're considering is what additional sanctions can be imposed on lukashenko and kind of his inner circle of cronies who support his rule? might we be doing more in the u.s. and europe to expose the extreme corruption and publicize the extreme corruption that has been the political vulnerability of people like lukashenko? how do we find a set and mix of tools and responses that go beyond the sanctions that just kind of feel scrutinized and really get at the vulnerability of these autocrats. what are they worried about? they're worried about the world learning about what they're doing and their own people in their own countries learning about what they're doing. that's why they target journalists like this, and the u.s. and eu can step in to be that voice in carrying forward the true story of what a

lukashenko is up to at the same time that they're imposing sanctions and, again, trying to protect global air space. >> it's an unbelievable story, ben rhodes. thank you for spending extra time with us today to talk about it. we're grateful. when we return, the long fight for racial justice and police reform as we approach the one-year anniversary of the murder of george floyd. "deadline white house" back after a quick break. don't go anywhere. back after a quick break. n'dot go anywhere. my name is austin james. as a musician living with diabetes, fingersticks can be a real challenge. that's why i use the freestyle libre

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tomorrow will mark one year since the murder of george floyd and in the year since his death, the grim reality of life marching on without george floyd, the father, the brother, the boyfriend, his sister, bridget, speaking out yesterday about the toll the last 12 months has taken on their family. >> it has been a long year. it has been a painful year. it has been very frustrating for me and my family. for your life to change within a blink of an eye. that officer didn't know what he took from us last year. >> hundreds, including members of the floyd family, marched in the streets of minneapolis yesterday, continuing their leadership in the fight for racial justice. tomorrow, president biden will

host members of the floyd family at the white house, but on capitol hill, the police reform bill that bears floyd's name has yet to receive a vote in the senate. that's despite the president's call to get it passed by the first anniversary of floyd's death. joining us now, kim atkins, "boston globe" senior opinion writer and mara gay, "new york times" editorial member, both msnbc contributors. kim atkins -- and you've both been so integral to our coverage of the last year and everything it allowed us to really talk about in pretty raw terms on tv in a way we perhaps didn't before. what do you make of the progress and/or lack thereof of the last 12 months, mara? >> it's a bittersweet time, because i think in some ways, it's been such a relief for black americans to see black grief become communal grief and i think be recognized and shared by so many americans.

there's a sense of acknowledgment that people see the pain that people in our community and our community has been through for so many years. before these videos existed or were shared as a cause for justice. i think, on the other hand, we know more than anybody that it's going to take more than that to really change this system and remake it into something that is fair to black and all americans, and we see that already because the george floyd bill is yet to kind of make the kind of progress that you would hope in congress, right, and so it's going to be an uphill battle and there's still a significant portion of the country, though not a majority, it seems, that are extremely resistant, in part because of the way donald trump and his enablers have framed this issue, and that's a tragedy as well. but it's also just -- it's

exhausting, watching people die. i mean, we've seen enough death this year from covid, and i think this just compounds the tragedy, but i will say it's very nice, at least, i don't know if nice is the right word. it's a relief to see our humanity recognized by others, finally, in some significant way. >> kim, the polling has a really disturbing illustration of exactly what mara is talking about, the impact of the ex-president. only one in three americans agree that the 2020 racial justice protests had a positive impact on society. a quarter have no opinion. 79% of white republicans think our country has already made the changes needed to give black americans equal rights with white americans. only 12% of white democrats think that we have done anything

to make the right changes needed to give black americans equal rights with white americans. that is, you know, to sort of borrow mara's frame, that is -- at least we're finally talking, right? but it is a -- it sort of illustrates the challenges in congress, and while merrick garland has made some pretty bold and aggressive and fast moves, we are once again talking about something important to this president, important to this vice president, important to the democratic party as a whole, the democratic party controls the house and the senate, that not a lot of people are optimistic about getting through in short order. >> yeah. i mean, it really just shows the effectiveness of the politicization of this issue, where republicans really used, in an effective way, the black lives matter movement, these calls for justice for black americans after seeing the images of george floyd and so

many other people killed at the hands of police, they saw that begin to resonate in the country and they mobilized against it. even the failure of the -- the likely failure of the january 6th commission is failing, in part, because the democrats didn't want to equate black lives matter with the insurrectionists who stormed the capitol. that's the kind of political landscape that has been set up in this fight for justice. it isn't new. we've seen the same thing happen during the 1960 civil rights era and we're seeing that happen now and that's making it very unlikely that even though there are republicans and democrats that have been sitting in a room for weeks, trying to pass some sort of policing reform, it is so unlikely to happen, certainly not going to happen by tomorrow, like president biden called for. but it speaks to the long challenges ahead in this country when it comes to the issue of race. we spent a lot of this show talking about hate and the rise of it, be it antisemitism.

we've seen the rise of anti-asian violence and we've seen the -- just the intensifying of the racial divide along political lines. it's a very difficult time in our nation. >> you know, it's hard to hear back to myself, right, that i have spent a lot of this show talking about hate. i think it's because i'm so appalled by how much of it we see and that it's all on the rise. the trajectorys are so haunting if you're raising a child in these times. mara gay, the family of george floyd never turned to hate. they never seemed to harden their hearts, and i remember, i think, shaq brewster was still in minneapolis, he's still in minneapolis, but the family of george floyd came out very early on and urged people to vote, and this white house is making this week, this one-year anniversary about the family. let me read you some nbc reporting. the white house is downplaying

the political goals and focusing on the personal connection. the president has spoken repeatedly about how meaningful his relationship with the floyd family is to him. it's important to him to hear from them about the perspective on this moment in our history and the progress that must be made in order to stop the agonizing trend of people of color being killed at the hands of law enforcement and to rebuild trust between law enforcement and the communities they serve. it's just another proof point of the power of what this family has done in this moment. just talk about the last 12 months of watching this family grieve in public and now really shaping this president's views and public pronouncements on the topic. >> you know, i've actually been thinking a lot about forgiveness lately, and i'm -- i happened to be reading desmond tutu's book, the book of forgiving right now and he talks about the power of forgiveness. we see it so often, i think, as something that we're giving to

somebody that has harmed us but i think the floyd family has really been teaching america a lesson about the power that it holds to bring justice and to bring people together, so it's -- it doesn't have to be about foregoing justice. it's about acknowledging the harm and bringing people together to fight for justice. the courage and the compassion that family has shown, i think, really does pave a path for us as a country, a way forward that all americans of goodwill can follow if they so choose. it reminds me a lot, actually, of the family members in the aftermath of the charleston shooting at the church in 2015. i was there in charleston when those families were in the courtroom and said, we forgive you, they said to dylann roof. it was extraordinary. but i think we really need it to be seen not just as a heroic act but as something to emulate, and

i think probably this is a country that needs a truth and reconciliation commission just like south africa had, but given, of course, the lack of consensus around the riot from january, i think we're a ways off, unfortunately, from that. >> and that is at its core also about grace. you have both shown us your grace. and kim atkins, you are so beloved by all of us, we want to wish you the best this weekend as you head off for the joyful occasion of your wedding. we will be thinking of you and sending you all of our love and all of our best wishes. kim atkins, mara gay, thank you so much for being a part of today's program. we want to see pictures on the other side. when we return, scenes that were unimaginable just a few weeks ago, how the plummeting number of coronavirus cases is opening the door to a real return to normalcy. that is next. that is next get exactly what you want on wayfair. hi. last piece. -kelly clarkson? you're welcome. like an updated kitchen in just an afternoon. it's a whole new look. -drinks?

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the presence to finish up over the top. r.j. barrett. >> over the weekend, a refreshing sign of normalcy. my kind of normalcy, basketball fans returning to arenas by the thousands to watch nba playoff games in-person. many of them still wearing face coverings. the latest real-world evidence of where widespread vaccination and safety measures will take us. the u.s. now averaging fewer than 23,000 new covid cases a

day. it's another record low since about a year ago. and this from the "new york times," for the first time since march 5th of last year, san francisco general hospital had no covid patients, a truly momentous day. dr. jane, an infectious disease physician at the hospital said on thursday, michigan, the state that reported one of the largest surges in the spring has rapidly improved, about 1,400 cases were identified on sunday, compared with 7,800 cases a day in mid-april. let's bring in someone we have talked to all along the way, dr. jha, dean at brown university school of health. so, i have -- i feel like we have turned to you when the news is so bleak. the news is now so hopeful, so optimistic. do you expect to continue this trajectory? are you comfortable now? do you feel secure in saying good things are ahead? >> yes, nicole, thanks for having me back. i feel pretty comfortable saying the next few months should be even better than they are now.

we do still have to keep going on vaccinations. there are areas i can point to that provide some concern, but let's look at the big picture. the big picture is even on may 1st, we were generating 50,000 new infections. three weeks later, we're down to 23,000. that number's going to keep coming down. as long as we can keep vaccinating, we're going to have a terrific summer ahead. >> so, new york city today, and i have a broader than new york point, i know i'm a parent in new york city, but they announced there will be no remote school in the fall. everyone's going back to the classroom. and masks will still be part of the solution because at least today, only kids 12 and up can be vaccinated. can you sort of pull the string forward for kids? will they be maybe available for vaccinations by the fall? are they simply safer because they've never really been hot beds of transmission? did we figure out schools? just take me through the kid piece. >> yeah, absolutely. it's a bit of all of those

things, right? so, one of the best ways of protecting kids is by vaccinating adults because when you vaccinate adults, infection numbers come down and kids are less likely to get infected. we know that. that's one part. second, i hope fall we will be able to vaccine kids under 12. that will just again on the science and data and when that becomes available. the third is the rescue plan has a lot of resources for schools to improve their ventilation, do all of the things that are necessary. and throw in a little bit of mask-wearing in younger kids under 12, there's zero reason to be doing remote schools this fall. everyone should be able to get back in quite safely. >> do you think that this president making his first, second and third priority vaccinating all americans, sort of refusing to take the bait on the politics of anti-masking and anti-vaxxers, is it not just sort of a new public health model but a new political model.

>> yeah, obviously on the political side of this, it's hard for me to judge. i would say from a public health point of view, it's been terrific. my best understanding is i look at the economy and i look at the politics that we've gone through last year. it's all been driven by the virus. the pandemic has flattened our society and had all of these negative effects. my first, second, third goals are, get the virus under control and everything else will follow. from a public health point of view, it's felt exactly right to me. >> stunning contrast. so nice to spend time with you today. when we return as we do every day, we will remember lives well lived. lives well lived come your big m. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not an injection or a cream... ...it's a pill that treats differently.

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♪ hallelujah ♪ >> it's beautiful, right? an absolute treasure. sheldon nickette, flanked by his four sons singing in church quite beautifully. his family told us he sang barbershop for years, the lead in a quartet at work. his career was in education, from a summer school janitor to beloved teacher, administrator and interim superintendent. he earned an unimpeachable

reputation for kindness, consideration, humor and a positive attitude. the family swears without hyperbole, quote, he can make you feel good about yourself even if he was turning you down for a job. it matters large and small, significant and otherwise, he was known and remembered for the genuinely gracious way he treated others. as one friend put it, everyone has a story, from the students he helped to the nurses that cared for him in his final days. sheldon died of covid-19 complications in january. just a foot ♪ at the end of a light very, very well lived. we will be right back. ht back. okay, it's an app that compares hundreds of travel sites for hotels and cars and vacation rentals like kayak does for flights. so it's kayak. yeah, like kayak. why don't you just call it kayak. i'm calling it...

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. i'll say it for him, "the beat with ari melber" starts now and he has an extraordinary show for you. hi, ari. i can't wait to see this. >> nicolle, that's a nice thing to say. i always say, the same rule of thumb because i know you're the same with amazing guests, if