"morning joe" starts right now. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, may 25th. along with joe, willie and me, we have member of the "new york times" editorial board, mara gay, and president of the council on foreign relations, richard haas. good to have you all onboard this morning. today marks the one-year anniversary of the murder of george floyd by former police officer derek chauvin. attorney for the floyd family, ben crump, tells nbc news the family will meet with house speaker nancy pelosi and congresswoman karen bass this morning as well as several senators from both parties and then they will meet with president biden at the white house. crump told nbc news he views the white house visit as an opportunity to pay proper

respect to george floyd with a president who has been in continuous communication with the family. crump says he hopes the visit will keep momentum going towards passage of the george floyd justice in policing act. willie? >> and with this day, it also marks the deadline set by president biden for congress to present a police reform package. the lead negotiators from both parties are mystic a deal is now within reach. >> we continue to work on the process and i think -- we had good progress over the weekend, i thought. and i think we can see the end of the tunnel. we are starting to see a frame. >> we made a lot of progress over the weekend. we still have a lot of work to do. i'm going to be pulling long days all this week in hopes that we -- by the time we come out of the weekend, we have more and more of this framework being put together. >> senator scott and booker

there along with congresswoman karen bass of california, who has been working on this, they said the anniversary of george floyd's murder drives their work, writing in a statement, quote, this anniversary serves as a painful reminder of why we must make meaningful change. why we still are working through our differences on key issues, we continue to make progress towards a compromise and remain optimistic about the prospects of chiefachieving that goal. one year on now, the work continues. it's been a long year in many ways in this country, but it looks like there might be progress on this front, at least. >> it looks like there might be progress. and mara gay, it's so good to hear cory booker and tim scott, republican and democrat alike, talking about the good progress that was made over the weekend. you do really get a sense that that progress was made, because they knew this date was coming, and they just -- they felt the

moral compunction to do it. >> there's no doubt about it. i think, though, that, you know, the fears among those who support police reform is just the understanding that there is a large significant portion of the country who is not committed to this and and part of the reason is that the issue has become politicized thanks to donald trump. and because of that, i think it's still going to be very difficult to put meaningful reforms into this bill. you know, the whole battle over qualified immunity is just a preview of really, i think, what's going on behind the scenes. i'm not fatalistic about it. i think there's a lot of good that can get done here. but i do continue to believe that significant reforms will have to happen at the local level. in conjunction, i think, with the department of justice, who will continue to increase

oversight over some of these -- and that's actually -- there's a lot of room for optimism there. this is a good start, but there is a lot of of -- and we've done essentially -- so we have -- >> let's bring in jake sherman to the conversation to check on the progress of these negotiations. he's the cofounder of punch bowl news and an msnbc political contributor. jake, good morning. good to see you. we know that the floyd family attorney benjamin crump will be up on capitol hill today, meeting with speaker pelosi, among others. where are the sticking appoints. we hear the positive messages from senator scott, senator booker, and karen bass. where are these last points where they'll need to negotiate? is it qualified immunity, for example? >> yeah, it basically is qualified immunity, willie. and that's what's been holding us back for a long time. there's been mixed messages, depending on who you talk to about qualified immunity and

where it stands. a few things to note. number one, the right people are in the room, right? you have the right powerful democrats that people listen to and republicans. tim scott, cory booker, karen bass. interestingly enough, we put in our letter in punch bowl news this morning, bass stayed in town this week to continue talks. they're going to continue this week. we anticipate that something will come out maybe next week. i just don't want to -- from a practical point of view, willie, we haven't even seen the opposition on capitol hill mobilize. we know -- i would imagine, to be honest with you, if i were a gambling man, i do believe this will pass both chambers and get signed into law. i think it will take a little bit of time to get done. but, you know, we're hearing the right things, seeing the right things, hearing the right information, all positive signs at this point. but qualified immunity is a big thing. >> yeah, jake, let's talk really quickly about a couple of other

issues that are obviously interesting to a lot of people on the hill. first of all, the massive infrastructure bill. republicans moved 500 -- you have the 325 or so that's based there -- there are about $800 billion. biden is at $1.7 billion. is there a possibility that that ends up around $1.2, $1.3 billion? >> yes and no, i guess i'll put it that way. i'm becoming more skeptical based on my reporting this a bipartisan infrastructure deal is going to happen. i just think -- like, if you strip away all of that, joe, and talk about the pay-fors, how they're going to pay for this legislation, democrats will say they will never do these user fees. republicans say they will never do the tax increases that joe biden wants. so i just don't see how you bridge that gap. so i do think at the end of the day, there'll be something done on infrastructure. i think they'll be majorly pared back to be honest you.

and i think democrats would be better served focusing on what joe manchin wants and not on what shelly moore capito wants. not that shelly moore capito is a bad person. i just think, strategically at this point, they are more likely to get a bill with democrats than they are with republicans. >> and also, the january 6th commission, joe manchin has made it clear that he wants to work with republicans. he's also made it very clear to republican leaders that you can do what you want on infrastructure, on other things, but you better not politicize the 1/6 commission. he's sort of drawn a line in the sand with mitch mcconnell and republican leaders. i'm wondering whether they're going to stand in the way. whether they're going to help him get ten republicans, or whether this is going to end ugly. because, at some point, at least i get the sense that manchin is giving the republicans all the

rope he feels they need, all the slack they need to get things done. but, man, if they stonewall him on everything, he's going to say, i tried and we've got to pass some legislation with the democrats. >> i think that republicans are going to stonewall the january 6th commission to be honest with you, joe. i think you're going to see them this week dig in even harder against it. the interesting thing is, i mean, nancy pelosi, to her credit on this issue, is being very, very, very flexible. more flexible, possibly, than i've ever seen her in the decade or more i've been covering her. she basically said, whatever the republicans want, i'll give them, besides, i'm not making this an investigation into blm and all these other ancillary issues. she's already come their way on everything. here's the reality, joe. this is a short-sighted move by republicans, because we're not going to get out of this congress without an investigation into january 6th. so either it's this commission

where republicans have a huge amount of say over subpoenas, over everything, or it's in democratic committees, which, yes, is partisan, but they are going to be able to issue subpoenas on everything, everyone, without any republican input. so i don't get strategically why they would take themselves out of the game when they could get 99.9% of what they want. >> well, exactly. even they're complaining about staff. they could get a compromise on the staff. they could get a compromise on a lot of this stuff. it is a bad look for them on january 6th to be stonewalling this commission. and i've got a feeling that both sides -- we've all looked at joe manchin from the democratic side and how much can he be pushed by the democrats? at some point, manchin will walk away from republicans and just work with democrats if they stonewall everything. he's giving them a chance. by the way, speaking of a chance, willie and i want a chance to look as good use. could you tell us -- >> jake --

>> we've been talking about your hairdresser -- >> yeah, i didn't -- you know, i didn't -- i didn't realize that until i just looked in the screen right now. sorry, you know, we have a morning edition that should be out by now and i -- we're late and john bresnahan -- he has no hair, so he's going to make me shake my head for today. >> yeah, no, no, jake, we know you're going right back to bed. you just go ahead. >> i'm not going back to bed. i pray i could go back to bed, mika. that ain't going to happen for me this morning. or any morning. >> jake sherman, punch bowl news whereby thank you very much. you can come on looking any way you want. we love it. look at joe. >> exactly. >> other news to get to. president joe biden is weighing in on the forced diversion by belarus of a commercial passenger jet. the incident happened on sunday when president alexander lukashenko ordered a ryanair flight carrying a key opposition journalist and traveling across

europe to land in the belarusian capital minsk. that reporter was then detained on arrival. president biden calls it a direct affront to international norms and condemned the action as an outrageous incident. those are good words to use. the journalist whose flight was essentially hijacked midair has been seen for the first time since the international incident and it only makes things all the more disturbing. we have video here of raman pratasevich. it was filmed by belarusian authorities. he claims he's in good health. and he says that the police are treating him well and he's confessing to organizing protests. it appears that pratasevich has marks on his forehead. in a statement, the president says that the statement of the 25-year-old dissident appears to be made under arrest.

he says it's shameful and the u.s. joins other countries in calling for his release as well as an independent investigation. willie? >> so richard haas, ryanair calls this a state-sponsored hijacking. this was a carried out frankly by the dictator of belarus. so what is the appropriate response here? we've heard outcry from joe biden, we've heard it from the eu. but what can be done about this brazen -- it doesn't begin to describe what we saw, but scrambling a jet to land a commercial aircraft and pull off a journalist is something that we haven't seen. >> this is what it is. this is hijacking, this is air piracy. it's exactly what it is. europeans essentially have come together, banded together to isolate belarus. flights won't go there. they'll pay a certain price. but someone will be able to go from belarus to russia and that's the bottom line.

lukashenko is essentially president for life because another president for life, vladimir putin, is backing him, politically and financially. and so he will continue to give lukashenko whatever support he wants, so the european actions will further isolate belarus. they'll get him even closer to putin and russia, but it's not going to affect the fundamentals of the situation. >> so boris johnson has said, as a journalist and passionate believer in freedom of speech, i call for his immediate release. belarus's actions will have consequences. what are the greatest consequences that the united states and our allies in europe can do to pressure belarus? >> again, we can do economic sanctions, we can do political sanctions, isolate them, and so forth. what we can't do, apparently, is get lukashenko out of power. mr. putin has floated him something like $1 billion in loans. look, at the risk of being, you

know, so negative, this is an example of what's going on in the world today. there's a phenomenon, the term is democratic backsliding. what we're seeing is across the world, it's been going on for about 15 years now. it's almost as if you had a share of stock called state of the world's democracies. this stock would have corrected, would have lost significant value now for 15 years. belarus is one of the worst examples. you've got the russias, the chinas, and others that are willing to come up really with an alternative support system. the u.s., the eu, the other democracies can penalize them. we can isolate them. but now they've got an alternative source of oxygen, like the venezuelas, like the cubas and so forth. so increasingly, the world is divided between countries that are democracies that are largely in that camp, and the authoritarians that are providing all sorts of political and economic support to their allies. >> wow. >> a new cold war.

>> yeah. we are following new developments relating to the possible origins of the coronavirus. a previously undisclosed u.s. intelligence report found that three researchers had a lab in wuhan, china, got sick enough to be hospitalized in november of 2019, just before the outbreak began. the news was first reported by "the wall street journal." nbc news senior international correspondent keir simmons has more. >> reporter: nbc news confirms the u.s. intelligence report says that three researchers at a wuhan lab fell ill and even went to the hospital right before the coronavirus pandemic began. there's been growing speculation the virus escaped from the wuhan institute of virology, but an earlier joint study by the w.h.o in china controversially dismissed claims that the virus may have leaked from that lab. but back in march, a member of that team told us some lab researchers were ill.

>> did some researchers get sick with flu-like symptoms in the fall of 2019? >> there were occasional illnesses, because that's normal. there was nothing different about that. >> do you remember how many researchers? >> maybe one or two. it's certainly not a big -- a big thing. >> reporter: in february, a western intelligence official told nbc news the u.s. has substantial intelligence that has not been made public about the actions the chinese government took related to wuhan lab. and recently, dr. fauci became the latest high-profile scientist to question china's theory that the virus came from an animal. >> i am not convinced about that. i think that we should continue to investigate what went on in china. >> reporter: but some w.h.o scientists insist china can be trusted. can you trust the chinese data? >> it's the science here, and the data don't lie. >> china has responded to the

report -- >> i'm sorry, the w.h.o -- what is going on? i mean, we've been talking about this for a couple of years now. >> mm-hmm. >> they -- they really have made themselves look like they're a wholly owned subsidiary of the chinese government. and they need to take the "w" off the world health organization and put a "c" in front of there. the chinese health organization, if they're not going to before more impartial here. they do valuable work across the globe. they need to stop. just blindly following what the chinese tell them the party line is. and that appears to be, if you listen to our scientists, if you look at the intel reporting, if you look at what other countries are telling us, that appears to be the case right now, certainly as it pertains to this virus. >> yeah, china's response to the report that three wuhan scientists fell hill, calling it

completely untrue and accusing the u.s. of hyping the lab leak theory. >> so, mara gay, so there's intel out there that western intel sources, we have to wait, of course, because we've seen other intel sources that ended up not being accurate. but right now, we've got the intel sources that are suggesting that we look closer to the wuhan lab. scott gottlieb is saying that we have to look at this aggressively. dr. fauci saying the same thing right now. there are a lot of questions about what happened in that lab last fall going into december. >> i have a question for richard, actually, if he is still with us here. i was wondering if he might shed some light into what the strategic purpose behind releasing this kind of intel

report, or at least the information about it to the public might be. could you shed some light on that? is there a message here that the united states is sending to china, to others. i feel like i'm in the middle of spy games at the moment, frankly. >> it's a great question. but let's take a step back for a second. think of the coincidence. this is the only lab in china that does this kind of research. it happens to be in the same city where the virus -- where covid broke out. but the latest "wall street journal" is tracing it back to when we believe this lab collected covid samples from bats from a number of years before. what leads to the theory is that we've seen an extended chinese cover-up, and as joe said, the world health organization can't be trusted, because its senior officials have to be approved by china. a small degree of its funding comes from china.

they're scared to lose access to china. the scientific evidence can be argued round or flat in terms of the origins of the virus. but you've got the lab there and the chinese cover-up. the reason this is so significant is to get the truth out about china. they've been trying to position themselves as a great benefactor to the world through their belt and road initiative, through their vaccines. but if this turns out to be a lie and a cover-up, think about the significance internationally, in terms of china's position, all the reactions to it. think about it even more at momentum. remember watergate? it's not the crime, it's the cover-up? no one's accusing china of intentionally leaking this, but if this thing did leak, and i should tell you, i should increasingly have come around to that position, it was a kind of farout position. i think the evidence and chinese behavior increasingly supports it. this regime has now increasingly

tied itself to this story, which if it is a fiction, i believe potentially challenges the legitimacy of this regime and this leadership. so this has become an enormous political story on top of an enormous public health story. >> richard, can you explain for people why it appears the w.h.o time and again runs cover for china. as you alluded to, the united states gives vastly more money to the w.h.o. donald trump's suspension of that funding, notwithstanding. it's not even close. in fact, based on their economy and the size of the country, china actually doesn't give very much money to the w.h.o. so why does it wield so much influence and why does the w.h.o continue to bend a knee to that country? >> a couple of reasons. one is china is a member of the u.n. security council has to approve the top official of the world health organization. there's that. also, the scientists, a lot of them have grants and chinese laboratories. they've had cooperative

relationships for years. they hope to have cooperative relationships in the future. quite honestly, a lot of them, i think, are being taken for a ride. they are -- they're just too close to the chinese and some chinese scientists. by the way, willie, these same scientists are not available for anyone to ask questions of. it just doesn't sound right. it doesn't smell right. there is something going on here. >> well, you also, of course, you have to go back to see what happened in december, when the united states, people like matt pottinger were desperately trying to get information from the chinese, because they knew something was going on and the chinese absolutely refused to cooperate in december of 2019. richard, though, i want to follow up really briefly on mara's question about feeling like she's in the middle of spy games, which it's a great question to ask. why would the intel community leak this information at this point? do you think there's something strategic or do you think it was a one-off, somebody inside of an

agency? >> well, i don't think this is a one-off. i think, joe, this is a priority for the u.s. intelligence community to understand this. this is an all hands on deck investigation. and this goes to the heart of the growing competition between the united states and china, both globally for influence, but also, it's a competition between systems. democracy and authoritarian. the big difference between the two systems is when authoritarian systems make mistakes, and we all do, all systems do, they tend to cover them up. the one-child policy. potentially this. we make our share of mistakes and then some. the great advantage of democracies, traditionally, traditionally, a we can admit them and fix them. this has now become in some ways a competition between systems with global implication. >> so, richard, i just want to go back to the story about the journalist who was taken hostage in belarus, raman pratasevich.

this is a commercial flight and it was hijacked and i just -- the american response seems strong in its wording, but should there be more leaning on russia? i know president biden is meeting with putin next month. should there be more leaning on belarus? should the international community be acting more? and should the united states have a much more sharp response, given that we are sort of reinstating our place in the world. and you are right. we are watching democracies backslide, and quite frankly, america was on that slide in the past four years, with donald trump as president and there is a statement, don't you think, that needs to be made, in light of this hijacking of a commercial airliner? >> look, mika, it's awful and we can cut off all aviation links with belarus or even russia, if we want.

but meanwhile, in russia, you have the imprisonment of the principle political challenger, mr. navalny, thousands of others. you've got russian troops parked in crimea, parked in eastern ukraine. you've got all of these other things that russia is doing. at the same time, we have a nuclear competition with them. we want their support with iran. we want their support on north korea. we don't want to see them committing further aggression. this is a really complicated relationship with a country like russia. and it's also economically pretty separate. unlike china, which is much more integrated in the world, putin's russia is much more economically isolated. we can do things, sanction individuals, sanction the country, their economy. whether it's belarus or russia. but we're kind of running out of thanks to sanction. and obviously, there's a -- they have an ability to absorb these blows and essentially ignore us or push back. and again, i don't mean to be so negative. of course, i wish there was more we could do to get somebody like lukashenko out of power.

but i just don't -- it's not easily done so long as putin remains his benefactor. >> okay. we'll continue this conversation. and still ahead on "morning joe," new jersey is listing its coronavirus mask mandate after being one of the few holdouts to adopt new cdc guidance. governor phil murphy will join us to talk about that. plus, former georgia gubernatorial candidate and voting rights advocate, stacey abrams will be our guest. also ahead, our conversation with ambassador susan rice. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. oh! don't burn down the duplex. terminix.

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mickelson, he needed a security escort on the greens in the final hole. watch this. >> kiawah erupts. >> actually, they've lost control of the scene. >> yeah. >> it looks like the annual running of the khakis. >> i'm just glad to see a mob of white people who aren't storming the capitol, aren't you? >> wow. you know, willie, we didn't get a chance to talk about this yesterday, but identify got to say, mickelson at 50 running, it kind of got my competitive juices going again. >> i kind of liked the crowd. >> it's been a while since i won. what year was that -- '86. >> jack was 86. >> jack was '86. >> this is getting old. >> i'm thinking, maybe i get -- next april i get in the econoline van, drive down to that parking lot, the strip mall where you met john daly, maybe i spend the night there a couple of weeks.

they let me do it, because i won already, and maybe i try to break the record. >> i think you can do it. as long as there are carts involved, food and beverage breaks, i think, are important for you. you know, just to get to the clubhouse and get some fried chicken in you before you head out again. that was an amazing day. that scene was, even as a fan of sports, it was a little out of hand when you saw phil trying to push his way through. and people grabbing at him. but hep handled it great. he was just giving thumbs up as he was being pawed out walking up the 18th green. brooks koepka, who finished tied for second, said he just came off knee surgery, he said somebody banged into his knee, it wasn't great for him. but all of that aside, this was just an amazing day for 50, almost 51-year-old phil mickelson to win a major that way. and a guy who's so respected and so beloved by the fans, that's such a beautiful course at kiawah island. just awesome. pga, though, did apologize after organizers did lose control of the crowd at the 18th hole at the pga championship.

in a statement on twitter last night, pga of america last night said in part, while we welcome enthusiastic fan engagement, we regret a moment of high elation and pent-up emotion of spectators briefly overwhelmed security and made two players and their caddies feel vulnerable. we always put player safety at the top of our list. so grateful order was restored, et cetera. mickelson said, quote, it was a little bit unnerving, but it was exceptionally awesome, too, says phil mickelson. >> that was the first time i watched golf and enjoyed it. it was a very -- i thought the crowd was so -- >> the whole tournament. everything was kind of more interesting than usual and the people were so loud and joyful. i kind of liked it. >> it was sort of like the running of the bulls, exactly. yeah, you like that stuff, too. >> i usually turn on golf and it's so boring. it's like crickets. i turned it off. >> this is in south carolina, man, they take their sport

seriously. look through history. but willie, it was a great event. this did remind me of when the crowds were rushing in -- do you remember when you and i went to one of richard haas' book events when he was passing out. >> well, that was amazing. >> he was passing out, you know, the scarves, a world in disarray and the beach towels. it looked like that for haas, too. i was afraid haas was going to get hurt. >> we had to rush him out of the back exit there and get him out of there. and there was an announcement made by r.j. julia, one of the great bookstores said, haas has left the building. haas has left the building and the crowd dispersed after that. >> got in his van, drove back to the hotel. so, richard -- so, richard, i understand that you want to be the roger bennett of golf, so this is -- this is your opportunity to take us through -- i've got to say, a remarkable weekend.

i probably saw more of this tournament for whatever reason than i have -- i was there from friday through sunday, watching most of it. and mickelson had his ups and downs, never really surrendered to the lead. koepka was there all along. this was just -- this was a great tournament front to back, and mika's right, the urgency of the fans all four days really made it something special. >> it was something special. what makes it special also, joe, it's the only one of the majors where a number of spots are saved for club pros. they had their own separate qualifying tournament. so 20 joined the full-time people on the door. two, actually, made the cut. two made the final two days. so what makes the pga special of all the four majors? it's the people's tournament. it's played on this course. this course, the way it was done, it was the longest course, the ocean course ever for a golf major. also, the toughest. the ratings of the course. this is as difficult as golf

gets. and you saw the score, were pretty low. the idea that mickelson would win his sixth major, putting him in pretty rarefying technology. he's won three of the four, never won the u.s. open. oldest person ever to do it by several years. this is extraordinary. and it's a pattern across sports. you've seen it with brady and others, that older athletes, if they can stay in shape, they can stay focused. they can still keep with all of these guys, particularly all of these ripped young guys. his whole career has been slightly in the shadow of tiger woods. it's so great now to see phil mickelson emerge. he's now the biggest name on the golf course. >> i've got to say, speaking of tiger, you couldn't help watching this, thinking about tiger and, obviously, him recovering. we certainly hope he's doing -- he's doing well in that recovery is coming along.

he's just such a special, special player and that guy has fought back time and time again. it sure would be great to see him, because his presence sure was missed out there, wasn't it, willie? >> it always is. he's one of the only golfers that i can think of that had a scene like that, where the crowd and galleries are so excited that they filled in behind him. not quite as unruly as this one we saw at kiawah, but he's had scenes like that. we hope he'll be back. look, he's five years younger than phil. obviously, he's recovering from a terrible leg injury, but you're right, it would be great -- how about seeing both of them on a sunday at a major. we hope we can. >> i might watch for the second time in my life. all right. a couple of other stories making headlines this morning. amazon is near a deal to purchase mgm studios. people familiar with the matter tell "the wall street journal." the almost $9 billion deal is expected to be announced as

early as today. it would mark the largest acquisition for amazon since it acquired whole foods for nearly $14 billion back in 2017. amazon is looking to build its media portfolio to bolster its prime video service to be more competitive. while mgm has been looking for a buyer for several years, the side is a co-owner of the james bond franchise, as well as other film and tv series, such as "rocky," "legally blonde," and "survivor." >> willie, this is just a sign of the times. we've seen at&t and discovery coming together, now you're seeing amazon and mgm. i suspect comcast will be looking for peacock to merge with. you just have to do that. it looks like it's so interesting, when we were growing up, before your time, willie, there were, you know, you had an antenna, you had

three channels, abc, cbs, nbc, and pbs, if you were lucky, you would get three or four. and then we had this explosion of cable and suddenly there were 300, 400, 500 channels and you could select. and now here we see on the other side of it, everything collapsing back down where most industry analysts expect us to have four or five major streaming companies five, six, seven years from now and that's going to be how we watch tv in the future. so right now, it's going to be one massive merger after another. >> yeah, we're watching it happen. this is history before our eyes. this is reshaping of the media in the direction of streaming and gobbling up content and having best content and netflix sort of blazing that trail and everybody playing catch-up a little bit. but these old legacy media companies know that they have to find streaming and do it pretty

quickly with the way tv is going right now, network tv, certainly. but you've got to be streaming. that's why you've seen these deals like the huge discovery deal last week and now this one with mgm and amazon. they're all going to come back together, as you say, and create these sort of titanic companies that are racing to have the best and the most content. >> and ron desantis signed a law gives the power to penalize media companies. he said it was a blow against silicon valley elites who he said were looking to censor conservative views. he said that florida media companies may not permanently delete or ban a candidate for office. suspensions of up to 14 days are allowed and a site can remove individual posts that violate its terms of service. if a company's actions are found to violate the law, the state's

elections commission could fine a social media company $250,000 a day for statewide candidates and $25,000 a day for other candidates. individuals in florida may also sue for violations of the law. the law to prohibit deplatforming is the first of its kind in the nation. a similar proposal is making its way through the texas legislature. and i just want to make sure that, like, ron desantis -- i mean, is he being clear here when he talks about conservative candidates versus candidate that is don't tell the truth? that make bold-faced lies. because there's two different things, right? >> well, that's what -- that's what's so cute about this political stunt. this political gesture. first of all, it's most likely unconstitutional. it violates the first amendment and how a private company chooses to moderate content on

their platform. but secondly, saying they believe in free market and free enterprise and the power of companies to run things they want to run, deciding they are going to be -- use the power of the state to tell facebook or to tell twitter how to run their first amendment policies. it's just -- that's a bizarre thing for an alleged small government republican to do. >> totally, joe. the reality is that desantis is taking advantage of, i think, what is a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the first amendment. and it really goes to this quote/unquote cancel culture, red meat culture war issue. you know conservatives just like

everybody else in the country need to understand that you is a right under the first amendment to speak your piece. you do not have an entitlement to speak that piece on a private platform or, for example, in "the new york times". nobody has a right to publish a guest column in "the new york times." i think that's kind of maybe the better example. you do have a right to say what you like in a town square. and that's really why this is perversion of the first amendment. the real issue here is that these tech companies like facebook are also content platforms. and they have not actually been regulated as such, which has allowed them to spread disinformation or allowed disinformation to be spread on their platforms. and that is a much bigger and far more serious issue that we've discussed on this show before. and that's something that's going to have to be taken up by congress. and i hope there's buy-in on a

bipartisan basis for that. this is really just, you know, about the victimhood, i would say, of some right-wing conservative americans who feel that they are being canceled, because their views, which are in many cases repugnant, no longer allowed in mainstream private companies on their platforms. >> all right. mara gay, thank you very much for being on the show with us this morning. see you soon! and coming up, the violence in the middle east stirs up a new wave of anti-semitism here at home, both online and on the streets. we'll talk to the head of the anti-defamation league next on "morning joe." anti-defamation league next on "morning joe." i'm evie's best camper badge. but even i'm not as memorable as eating turkey hill chocolate chip cookie dough creamy premium ice cream and chasing fireflies. don't worry about me. i'm fine.

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anti-semitic attacks are rattling the jewish community in brooklyn. men chased and punched jewish

teens on the street. and in another case, they circled people while yelling anti-semitic slurs at them, sending the victims running into a nearby synagogue for safety. >> new details now on a weekend incident at a hallandale beach synagogue. new video shows a man spitting on a menorah. >> in new york city, police charging a 28-year-old man with a hate crime after he allegedly beat a jewish man. >> that freshman was violently attacked this weekend at a party off-campus and he says it all happened because he's jewish. >> a restaurant attack is now being investigated as a hate crime. witnesses say the people involved were targeting several jewish diners. >> harassment, vandalism, assault, and even zoom meetings and services being disrupted by graphic and racist messages. anti-semitism has been on the rise in america and sunshine state is seeing a surge in

incidents. >> it's just disgusting. it's absolutely disgusting. not only across this country, but across the world. >> yeah. authorities across this country are investigating a rise in anti-semitic incidents, including physical attacks, anti-semitic slurs and graffiti involving swastikas that comes amid the latest wave of violence between israel and hamas. according to the anti-defamation league, a twitter analysis from may 7th through the 14th found more than 17,000 tweets with variations of the phrase "hitler was right," and ceo and national director of the antidefamation league, jonathan greenblatt joins us now, along with columnist for "the new york times" and an msnbc contributor, michelle goldberg joins us. >> so, jonathan, thank you so much for being with us. you know, anti-semites really don't need a conflict between israel and hamas to preach the

sort of hatred that we've seen rise up over the past few decades. it's actually been with us in the west for thousands of years, but talk about the latest round and how disturbing they've been. >> yeah, i mean, it's certainly true that conflict in the middle east can often catalyze an uptick of anti-semitism here in america. but what we've seen in the last two weeks, joe, it exceeds anything we've seen in recent memory. literally, over the previous two-week period, we saw a 63% spike in incidents all over the country. 63%. and you know, just to characterize it a bit. i mean, number one, as you'd showed in your opening segment, the breadth of these incidents. they are coast-to-coast, from california to arizona to illinois to michigan, wisconsin, new jersey, new york, south carolina, florida, pennsylvania.

they're spreading like wildfire. that's number one. number two, the brazenness, the brutality of it, people being assaulted in broad daylight. sometimes by individuals coming from, say, pro-palestinian protests and then literally assaulting individuals with those flagpoles. we saw in los angeles, you know, men driving through jewish neighborhoods with megaphones. you know, yelling, we're going to kill the zionists, we're going to rape your women and daughters. by the way, we saw the same thing happening in london. so the sheer boldness and audacity is scary. and then, thirdly, joe, something else you alluded to. this is being amplified by social media. i mean, what we saw, from tiktok to twitter, to instagram to every other platform, just, you know, again, as was noted, an

ugly torrent of tweets. 17,000 claiming hitler was right. we tracked almost a 450% increase on 4chan of ugly, you know, again,xaggerated claims, inflammatory rhetoric, the kind of conspiratorial claims that led to violence against asian americans, while unsubstantiated claims about china, made by leaders and people in positions of authority led to attacks on asian americans, now we're seeing wild, unsubstantiated conspiracies about the jewish state leading to attacks on jewish people. it's ugly and it's got to stop. >> and michelle goldberg, you note that by conflating jewish people with the israeli state, in effect, what happens is, a debate, a meaningful debate on israeli policy is effectively

shut down, because of that conflation and because of these scenes of anti-semitism that we've seen more in broad daylight in europe than we have here in the united states. >> well, and one of the ironic things is that this is something that the most right-wing zionists have in common with the most anti-semitic anti-zionists, is that both conflate the jewish people with the israeli state. both think that you can sort of attack jewish people to get revenge on the israeli state. you know, when donald trump talked about israeli as being your country, when he was talking to american jews, that's not that much different from these sort of thugs who were out attacking random jewish people, because they think that they're somehow complicit in what's happening in israel. and yes, i think it's similar -- there's a long history of the

violence against jews in europe, obviously. you know, going back many decades. but just more recently, jews in europe have traditionally been more vulnerable, as jonathan has said to me and others. they are often, you know, feel more reticent to display their jewishness or display they're taking a risk by doing that. that didn't you'd to be the case in the united states and it's really a crisis if it's becoming so. >> you know, michelle, i want to circle back to something you said, because i think it's so important, that on the far right, the most extreme zionists will suggest that any criticism of israeli foreign policy or israeli domestic policy is anti-semitism per se. and now you have, of course, enemies of jews doing the same exact thing. >> and something that

progressive jews in the united states -- not just jews, but progressive jews among others have tried for years and have finally, i think, lately have some success at is breaking this extremely tight identification and changing the discourse so you can talk about what are very real, in many cases, israeli human rights abuses, without being accused of anti-semitism. so you can talk about the interests and aspirations of the palestinian people. and this really threatens that. because the most right-wing forces in israel and america have always claimed that to talk about palestinian rights is to engage in anti-semitism, when you have these high-profile violence in the name of palestinian rights, it's obviously going to be used by republicans and other figures to try to shut down this whole entire conversation.

>> yeah, jonathan, i live in new york city a few doors down from a large synagogue, and over the years, i've had to explain to my children on saturday mornings why there are new york police officers in tactical gear standing out in front of those places. it's a hard conversation to have, but it's an important one. so do you think we're seeing something new and something different in this moment, or is it just a continuation of where we've been, sadly, for so long? >> look, from the extreme right to the radical left, unfortunately, these jews have been under siege for years. and i can tell you stories of shootings at the jcc in kansas city, the jewish federation in seattle. an encounter in atlanta. the holocaust museum in d.c. and you know, let alone the pittsburgh shul. so we've seen again and again, jewish houses of worship, community offices attacked and

this feels like an amping up. and keep in mind, if you're looking for organizations that will critique israeli policies without being anti-semitic, i'll direct you to adl.org. because we've done plenty of that. but i think the -- the vast majority of people who argue about middle east policy, they're not engaging in anti-semitism. and serious critics don't say that they are. but the reality is this conflation that's happening with people with antipathy and violence in their hearts is, i think, what's frightening jews across the political spectrum. i've heard from people who have said to me, willie, is it safe for me to walk to synagogue this saturday morning? can i send my kids to jewish day school or will they be a target? there's a lot of fear right now, which is why we need people in positions of authority to stand up and speak out without egive kuwaiting or qualifying, and say, clearly, if you're from the political left, that

anti-semitism is unacceptable. and there is no -- when you attack people because of how they pray, that isn't politics, if you will. that's prejudice plain and simple and it's got to stop. >> and you know, there has been so much progress and jonathan, i've seen you and al sharpton talk about the importance of bringing the community together, after, it seems, every anti-semitic attack, i see you on al sharpton's show. he said this yesterday. we must be concerned with the anti-semitic attacks and they must be condemned as strongly as attacks against blacks. we must speak out against all wrongs or else we have no standing when we, ourselves, have been wronged. and that's al sharpton. we have richard haas with us, michelle. and he has a question. richard? >> michelle, we were just talking before in terms of social media. do you think there has to be

more policing of anti-semitism? jonathan was speaking about all of the hashtags, "hitler was right," and so forth. how does one handle that? and how have jews been the target of a double standard. language that would never be with other persecuted groups has stopped, but language that traffics in anti-semitism is being tolerated? >> well, i would say one thing about social media is that actually an enormous range of bigotry is tolerate, you know, on twitter, on facebook. this has been an ongoing problem. and in some ways, it ties back to what mara was talking about earlier with this new law in florida. that free speech doesn't mean you have the right to say whatever you want on a private platform. and the owners of these platforms have been extremely reluctant and really remiss to really exercise any responsibility. they don't want to be seen as publishers. and yet they are publishers.

you know, their decisions about algorithms, about promotions, about engagement decide what people see. they decide what's going to be highlighted. and there's no reason why some of these things should be allowed to be trending topics. even if you don't want to delete it all. some of it you can just delete. they delete things quite freely. even if you don't want to do it, you don't have to highlight it. and i also think that i talk about what politicians are saying, but i would assume that when you talk about these people who are out there committing these haynes acts, you know, they're not getting their messages from the democratic party. i would bet they're getting their messages from the dark corners of the internet. >> michelle goldberg and jonathan greenblatt, thank you both very much for being on this morning. richard haas, thank you, as well. it's just past the top of the hour now. welcome to "morning joe,"

everyone. by the way, joe, you have a 6'4" 12-year-old -- >> he's not 6'4" -- >> he is so tall! jack turns 12. >> i can't believe it. >> we all remember -- and this tells you how old we are, we remember 12 years ago, jack, of course, was a premie, born pretty darned early and it was a pretty rough month that first month for poor jack and i remember, we actually -- you told me that a guy named jack scarborough was going to be okay, but it was touch-and-go for a while. and now 6 feet tall and, man, he is active. but, it's been a long, long time. >> i remember -- like it was yesterday. i hate to use the cliche, but i can't believe he's 12 years old and i remember what a tough time that was for jack and for you and for your family and to hear

that he's this big 6' dude now, given how tiny he was 12 years ago in this moment, it's a credit to all of those doctors and a credit to you and your family and a credit to the big guy, jack scarborough. >> i remember dennis leery came on our show and we were in the middle of it. and dennis came up to me and he said, hey, i have a premie, i want to show you a picture of him. of course, jack was like this, and had wires all of him. and showed me a picture of this 6'4" guy with hockey gear on. and i started breaking down and crying, because it seemed so far from that, right? and sure enough, here he is. >> here you are. >> he's 6 feet, he's strong -- >> he's perfect. >> what a blessing. >> a great guy. >> so many kind people said so many kind things along the way back then. if you have a premie or if you or a loved one has a premie, there is -- you know, you're going to get through it.

>> it's a miracle of science, too. what they can do. >> it really is. >> and can you guys believe that we've been on the air this long, between jack's entire life and beyond. what are we? 14 years? i don't even know at this point. getting old! all right, joining us, we have pulitzer prize-winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson. and former u.s. senator now an msnbc news and nbc political analyst, claire mccaskill joins us. good to have you both. as we start off this hour, today marks the one-year anniversary of the murder of george floyd by former police officer derek chauvin. attorney for the floyd family, ben crump, tells nbc news the family will meet with house speaker nancy pelosi and congresswoman karen bass this morning, as well as several senators from both parties. and will then meet with president biden at the white house. crump told nbc news he views the

white house visit as, quote, an opportunity to pay proper respect to george floyd with a president who has been in continuous communication with the family. crump said that he hopes the visit will keep momentum going toward package of the george floyd just in policing act. >> let me ask. gene robinson, i want to bring you in. i want us to try, and it may too soon to put perspective on this, historical perspective on this. but i look back over the past year, and i'm just wondering whether we are don't put that tragedy of one year ago today up with the birmingham bombing, the edmond pettus march. i'm just wondering if 50 years from now, there aren't three or

four events that reawakened america to racial disparities and i'm just wondering if people don't look at george floyd's murder, again, because we all saw it over nine minutes with the birmingham church bombing that killed four little girls. well, joe, you know, as you said, it is early, we know how the broad sweep of history can make things look different when you look back from 20 or 30 years hence. however, i think you can go all the way back to the brutal murder of emmett till and the publication of the photos of his battered, destroyed face when his mother insisted on an open coffin and a photographer for

"jet" magazine took the photos that shocked the nation and showed the brutality of jim crow of racism and oppression in the south. and opened a lot of eyes and i think, you know, my guess is that we will look back on george floyd's murder as that sort of event that opened eyes and you can look back at the past year, you can see some concrete changes that have happened in terms of policing and some consciousness raising that according to polls have taken place in terms of consciousness of racism. but, you know, this has to roll through year after year. i just think this will be looked back on as a watershed moment, a

really, really huge event that sort of marked a before and an after. i really do. >> claire mccaskill, war you hearing about the possibility of really both sides coming up with something that can make a difference and to do it together, bipartisan? >> i'm hearing they're very close. and you know, here's the thing we have to realize. if tim scott is expressing optimism and he's in the room, then they're going to get a bill, because the republican caucus will back tim scott, end of discussion. mitch mcconnell will back tim scott. so having cory booker and karen bass and tim scott working on this, around the clock, trying to find the sweet spot of compromise that gets this bill the full-throated support of the united states congress i think is very important. now, having said that, they've got to make sure that they don't

weaken it to the point that it's meaningless. but i don't think cory will let that happen and karen bass is not going to let that happen. the bill that tim scott referred to when he gave his response to the -- wasn't technically the state of the union, but people need to remember that his bill was pretty weak tea. it didn't even ban choke holds. so i think they're in a much better place right now, and everyone i talked to on the hill thinks this is going to happen. maybe not before memorial day, because, you know, the house is already gone for memorial day recess. by bet right after memorial day, they get this cross the finish line. >> "the new york times" is marking one year since george floyd's death with a new series on the movement that was born out of floyd's murder. the new series features essays on a number of issues. one, arguing against qualified immunity. another explaining how grief can

be channeled into justice and peace. and another asking if the movement will last. the topic we want to hone in on this morning is based on a focus group of 14 trump voters, who shared their thoughts about george floyd. here's what some of them had to say. >> when i say george floyd, i wonder what afraid comes to mind? >> tragedy, murdered. >> i listened to how you heard about donald trump and the election fraud, the response was immediate. there was no fraud. i asked you about george floyd. i know you all know who he is, i know you all know what happened, yet you were very, very slow to give me just a word or phrase to describe him. why were you pondering for so long? >> with trump, even though he was president, is much less of a controversial figure than george floyd was. >> i'm a mother and a grandmother and the mention of his name recalls that video.

>> if i had a couple of sentences, it would have been a lot easier. who was he? he was a drug addict who was a criminal who resisted arrest and put himself in a position where he was -- what happened to him happened. >> let's bring in the moderator of that focus group, longtime political strategist, frank luntz and deputy opinion editor at "the new york times," patrick healey, who sat in on the session. fascinating answers. >> thank you so much for being with us. >> good questions, too. >> i looked through this on sunday, and there were answers that were shocking, to me. i think it would be shocking to a lot of people. and yet, there actually is -- when you got to the end of it. patrick, there seemed to be a spirit actually in some of the answers of people saying, we've got to figure out how to get on the same page. we've got to figure out how to be less divided over issues like

this. despite some of the reactions to your questions and your prompts, there were quite a few of these people who were saying, we've got to do better. not them, all of us, have got to do better, the media included. >> i think that's true, joe, of some of them. not all of them, but some, from the get-go were saying that they thought that george floyd's death was a strategy. several of them said that. they were really grappling, it was clear, with what had happened over the last year in america. and i think at the end, when they were sort of asked that question, sort of, what had changed in terms of race of america, you heard real discomfort with the divisions that they see on social media that they see to some extent in their own lives.

one woman talked about how she and her husband were unsure if they wanted to bring a baby into the world right now. and you didn't have that kind of flame-throwing attacks that we got, unfortunately, used to with president trump, that sort of constant sense that everybody was in their corners. you did get the sense that they were really grappling with what kind of america they wanted to live in right now. >> and you could also see that there were some people that lived in a part of the country that seemed isolated from what many of us believe in. and as i said at the time, i'm surrounded by trump supporters. but that one clip we had that said, george floyd was a controversial figure, donald trump wasn't. so, frank, i want to key in on a couple of answers that you go. i think that would be stunning to most people that watch the

show. 13 of 14 of the people you talked to believed that george floyd was responsible for what happened to him. were you surprised by that? >> i was surprised by it. and it's really difficult and i appreciate "the new york times" and patrick allowing us to do that. and the response from "new york times" readers from this, i'll add one bit of color to this. we're not used to hearing points of view that we don't agree with anymore. those who watch the different cable networks tend to agree with what they're watching, because that's what they choose to watch. we now collect our news to affirm rather than to inform. and i saw the excellen comments in "the new york times" and some of the online comments, as well. and there was a real anger among some people that trump people were allowed to express their point of view. and that's part of the problem

right now. and i'm grateful for "the times" for offering the space and frankly, my condolences to patrick for people who did -- were so angry that "the times" had done that. it shouldn't be that way. we should want to hear. we have every right to disagree. and what trump people said, i'm okay with. and there are a couple of moments with in that focus group that they got agitated with what they had to say. but they should be heard. if we're not going to create another donald trump situation. if we're going to find some way -- by the way, those are great kicks that you're showing. i would gladly pay for them and donate to any charity to get them. we need to know -- we have to say, we need to know what they think even if we violently, emotionally, morally disagree, we've got to hear. because in hearing, you can solve, you can actually heal. and yeah, i was surprised, but i think your viewers need to hear

that stuff. >> there was another surprising one. 13 out of 14 people said that george floyd's death did not change the way they thought about policing. and patrick, talking about how, of all the things that i saw on here, that some were surprising, some weren't surprising, i think the one -- there was an exchange between you and evelyn that i thought was just fascinating, because it's what i hear all the time. where the media said that the protests were mostly peaceful. every trump person i talked to, when they look at last summer, they look at the riots, they remember the looting, they remember the chaos in the streets with kyle rittenhouse shooting people. therm cities burning, they remember minneapolis burning. and here's the back and forth. you say it's a fact that black lives matter protests in america were overwhelmingly peaceful, do

you disagree? and evelyn said to, i just want to say, is this a joke? i mean, are you serious? really, they were peaceful protests. you've got to be kidding! let me just say right now, if evelyn doesn't speak for the 75 million people who voted for donald trump, she speaks for an overwhelmingly large percentage of it, because that's what i hear all the time. patrick, talk about that exchange. >> it was really interesting, joe. look, the reality that a lot of us live in different kind of bubbles. and a lot of these trump voters live in a fox news/news max, oem bubble. and they talk about how they just see all of the time sort of what bleeds, it leads. and they were particularly talking about the sort of scattered violence that we could

see last summer. and the reality is fox news and others were playing this over and over and over again. they weren't showing the largely peaceful protests. they were showing the scattered acts of violence and so a lot of these of these voters were replaying, when i asked that question and tried to come at this in a good faith way. we weren't doing gotchas, there wasn't that kind of antagonism. we were really trying to have a back and forth. soy asked that question with some suggestions going on that protests were so violence and black lives matter was a violent hate group, which it's not. and made that point. and evelyn, he was so clear that

that was one of the moments in the focus groups when she was living in a completely different reality than i was living in. from her poifr last summer was a very, very violent time in america and that even though you had as many as 26 million people marching in those first weeks after floyd's murder, that really it wasn't about 26 million people getting arrested or marching peacefully. they were marching peacefully, but it was about violence. >> you know, willie, really quickly, the thing is -- two things can be true at one time. there were 26 million marches. the overwhelming majority of those marchers were peaceful. there were -- there was looting, there was rioting. there were times where i saw in los angeles, i saw things on the street in los angeles that made me really angry, while i was watching it last summer, too.

but, again, that if you're watching a channel that does nothing but show these violent outbreaks on a loop instead of showing how 90% of the protests go, you were obviously going to think that there was nothing but violence last summer during the protests and that's -- these two worlds that people live in. >> it's the filters that patrick was talking about. we're seeing it, by the way, as we talk about this january 6th commission, you have republicans saying, what about last summer? what about the riots of last summer? what about antifa. what about black lives matter? they want that to be part of a conversation, which is completely separate and distinct from the one we should be having about january 6th. and frankly, it was interesting to hear you talking to this group, just about the idea of having a conversation about race. i think one of the benefits of the last year for a lot of us, a lot of people in this country is that we actually have broken down some walls and started having honest conversations.

and when you talk to some people in that group, they said, well, you know, let's talk about critical race theory being taught in our schools, but others said, you know, white people think we've come a lot farther than we have and the opinion of this one person was, black people don't think we've come as far as we actually have. so what was your sense just of having the conversation. were they comfortable talking about race? >> and it's one of the reasons why they were so quiet and so careful in responding about george floyd. it's easy to come up with a point of view about donald trump. they're thinking that whatever they say may cancel them. whatever they say may be used against them. but after 15 or 20 minutes, they suddenly became comfortable. and they were answering patrick's questions as easily as they were answering mine. i know my politics have changed. i know what i believe has changed. and i'm trying, desperately. and thank you to "morning joe" to get this kind of dialogue out to the public, because we will not heal unless we hear. and that's my mission right now.

>> well, let's hear more from frank luntz's conversation with this group of trump voters. here it is. >> are you afraid, in america, to voice your point of view about issues of race? >> i have been very vocal in my opinion about the breakdown of race relations inside the united states, especially with critical race theory being taught in our schools. >> yes, i am. i feel like if you have an unpopular opinion on black lives matter or whatever, that you're discriminated against, no matter what color you are. >> i have one grandson and i will tell you this, i highly doubt that they will ever see any type of or very, very small, obviously, you can't say not --

racism, sexism, or whatever because i just think that we all learn, okay, from each generation. >> i think it's fair to say that most white people think we've gone farther than we actually have. and most black people think we haven't gone as far as we actually have. and somewhere in the middle is the truth. >> how many of you agree with martha's statement? almost everybody. >> so, gene, i'm curious your thoughts on what you heard right there, because i can tell you again that's something that i've heard growing up, an awful lot, that we haven't gone as far as most white people think we've gone, but we've gone further than what most people think we've gone as a country. i'm curious what you think about that and everything else that you've been hearing in patrick and frank's focus group? >> well, i think it's very

interesting. i think these people ought to talk to some white people. and maybe, you know, would have, yes, you know, everybody needs to listen to everybody else. and i think if they're not willing to listen to african-americans and others, who attempt to explain what our reality is and has been in this country, then, again, we don't have that sort of communication and we don't get very far. and so, you know, you heard the woman talk about critical race theory. they have -- it seems -- that's another of these fox news phrases that has come to mean kind of whatever people think it means and it means something bad when, actually, a lot of what

they're talking about is just like teaching u.s. history and teaching what actually happened in this country or on these shores for the past 400 years and that history is not black history, it's american history. and i haven't heard the whole focus group, so i don't know, but i'm actually curious. is there any appreciation of that history and any willingness to understand it better that they apparently understand it now? and frank, while i totally understand and support this incredible effort to listen more and to solve problems that way and that there are real challenges to having a healthy

conversation today, what do you do -- i mean, i know you said you got agitated when you heard a few things that the folks were talking about, i'm more concerned about when people are speaking based on misinformation, and, you know, between democrat and republican, there's a great conversation to be had. different groups, there's a great conversation to be had. but if we're going to bensurrec people who are members of it, those are people who are getting their information and it is wrong or it is based on violent beliefs, backing up a president who is no longer in power. and that's where i think it gets complicated. and i wonder if you can help me walk me through that. >> it's one of the things i'm going to ask right here on live television. patrick, i think you did a great service. i recognize that probably 25 or maybe 30% of your readers were

mad at you for doing that, but let's put both sides at the same time. let's put strong biden supporters and trump supporters. let's put progressives and conservatives in the same session, because i want to show you how bad it will be. and it will be bad. but i'll offer it to the "new york times," i'll offer it to msnbc, because we've got to figure out how to get over this. misinformation, correct. wrong information, correct. but how do you engage people and inform them accurately if they won't even listen to you? if they won't turn on the channel or go to the website. that's the problem we face right now. >> [ inaudible ] feedback that i got about it was quite positive in terms of the piece. so i realize that twitter can make a lot of noise and that there were some people who were troubled by it. but the response that we got

from readers and, you know, and some colleagues was, i think just sort of a sense of appreciation in terms of bringing some of these voices into the mix. mika, in terms of your question, i think it is a really good one and a powerful one. the reality is that so many people live in a state of misinformation. and including some of the people in this focus group, that i felt the need to say in the introduction that many of the people were trading in false claims about the election being stolen or black lives matter being, you know, neither of which is true. so we had to ask ourselves, did we want to do a focus group with folks who maybe, you know, making these false claims.

who certainly some of them were defending trump to the max, but i think for me, what i was most interested in was that there was a moment a year ago this week when republican support for black lives matter spiked. it spiked notably, it spiked briefly. and a lot of us spent part of last summer asking our attitudes about race and racism in this country changing? are republicans talking about the reality of racism in this country differently than usual. is this a lasting change? and that's part of what, you know, the piece was right to explore. >> fascinating. >> actually change for you and how. and i would just encourage people to go to the [ inaudible ] and listen to the whole thing. >> so, thank you, patrick. we're having a little trouble with your audio. but we greatly appreciate you being on. you can hear the full focus group online at

newyorktimes.com. patrick and frank, thank you both. claire, this is a -- i was reading through the "sunday times," this jumped out at me, this piece, and it was so important, because, yes, there were some answer that really aggravated me and really concerned me, but there were comments in there that i heard from friends and family members who supported donald trump. and you know, i see that 75 million people voted for donald trump. i don't understand it. even though, again, they are my friends and family that did it. and i have started conversations with lifelong friends and they have been painful conversations and it took us three or four conversations to get through where we can actually talk about the facts and we're making progress. but it's not easy. and that's just one on one with somebody that i've known and loved for, you know, most of my

life. this is going to be a really difficult process. >> well, it's not going to get better if we all retreat to our respective corners and throw up our hands and say, we're done, those people are idiots, they don't know what they're talking about. on the other hand, joe, i also think it's important to keep this in perspective. we've put some numbers up on the screen that talk about the percentage of republicans that are believing the big lie. but back that camera up and what you see is only 25% of america believes it. and that number hasn't changed that much since a few weeks after november. so the number of people identifying as republican has shrunk. the number of people within the republican party who believe donald trump's big lie is not anywhere near the number of that you need to win national elections in this country. so the more they keep going back to worrying about their primaries and worshiping at the

altar of donald trump and mar-a-lago, the more they are identifying with independent voters, the 25% of republicans who know this is a big lie. long-term, i think the democrats could be in good shape as long as joe biden keeps pushing policies that are widely popular with the american people. >> you know, that's another thing i saw in there, nobody criticized donald trump, but a couple of times, i did see there were people talking about, okay, well, let's see who our next leader is going to be and the party will heal. but i want to double down, mika, on what claire said that we need to have that conversation. it's a long conversation, it's a frustrating conversation when you're dealing with facts and people have been told lies. but it's a vital conversation to have and we get nowhere by just staying in our corners and get

nowhere with people who may believe in these election theories. >> even though we're angry. >> and i've been guilty in the past of getting angry about it. you have to calm down, get back in there, pick up the phone, talk to your friends, talk to your neighbors and just keep working. to at least try to argue over this same set of facts. that's a great start -- >> that's all we want. >> that's great start for this country. still ahead on "morning joe," our conversation with former national security adviser, susan rice, in her new capacity at the white house as director of the u.s. domestic policy council. plus, voting rights advocate stacey abrams will also be our guest this morning. but first, governor phil murphy will join the conversation as new jersey prepares to lift its indoor mask mandate for fully

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new york city mayor bill de blasio announced on our show yesterday morning that new york city public schools will return to full time in-person learning in the fall, without a remote option. across the country, los angeles public schools will start the school year next fall with in-person learning, while also offering an online option. the announcement comes as emergency pandemic guidelines that have allowed districts to operate online expire at the end of june. the superintendent of los angeles schools said middle and high school students would have a normal full-time schedule and

after-school programs would be available until 6:00 p.m., on school days. students who do no want to attend the traditional in-person schedule will have a remote option that will be mostly online. the superintendent said safety measures were still being worked on, but most likely, social distancing would be relaxed while mask wearing would continue. willie? now to the state of new jersey, where governor phil murphy will roll back the mandatory indoor mask rules for those who are fully vaccinated. and governor murphy joins us now. governor, good morning, it's good to see you. you obviously frustrated some people, i guess, ten or 11 days ago when you said, we're going to stick with these indoor masks despite the new cdc guidance at the federal level. what changed since then for you to say this memorial day weekend, people in new jersey who are vaccinated can take off those masks inside? >> yeah, it's good to be with you, willie. i think one of the persons i

frustrated, i'm told, was yourself. listen, more time on the clock here in a pandemic is your ally. we just weren't ready to lift that mandate on may 13th. but if you look at the progress we've made even in the past ten days or so, viral numbers going down, hospitalizations, positivity rates, et cetera, rate of transmission, and it allowed us further to push out our vaccine program of something called operation jersey summer, that had just taken hold. we've now got a bunch of programs including knocking on folks' doors in under-vaccinated communities. that time on the clock has been really valuable. as of this friday, the amount of time between may 13th and may 28th, we were able to make a lot of progress on both the viral numbers going in the down direction and the vaccine numbers going up. >> so what are, governor murphy, the exact numbers you're looking at in terms of vaccinations. one of the things we talked

about last week when we were discussing is that new jersey has done pretty well in terms of vaccinations. i think you're close to 60% having at least one dose. are those numbers significantly greater today than they were several weeks ago? >> they are. we're over 70% right now in terms of one dose. that's a big deal. we want to get to everybody fully vaccinated by the end of june. we've got a really aggressive program out there. i think among big states, it's about as penetrated a program as you'll see. we still have a lot of work to do on the equity front. we're making progress in black and brown communities, but we have a ways to go. i mentioned that door-knocking campaign. yesterday, for instance, that was in trenton, camden, passaic city, jersey city, bayonne. those are overwhelmingly communities of color. that's where we have the most work to do. >> as you say, we can't go back.

most people agree that you want to be somewhat tempered into how you get entitle. i didn't think this would survive boo memorial day weekend at the jersey shore. but what are you looking at in terms of keeping this where it is. when these masks come off, i'm sure you'll be watching a little bit nervously to see how things go. they've gone pretty well in places like texas and new york so far. what will you be watching for in terms keeping the rates of hospitalizations down and vaccination up? >> we'll continue to watch the public health metrics like a hawk, that's positivity rate, amount of folks in the hospital that are severely ill. we'll look at the so-called cali scores. we have a whole color-coded set of metrics. we'll keep our ear to the ground on any outbreaks. we'll continue to enforce any

violations of this, although there's not much left to violate. but we will stay very, very close to this, because you're right. we are one of the very few states in america that did not lurch. we did not, you know, stumble forward and then have to pull something back. the last thing we want to do right now is to go back. >> governor. i think people need to remember that education is primarily a state and local responsibility. i want you to speak for a minute about what you have planned to deal with those students who just tuned out for a year. who didn't have the support at home. who didn't really keep up with their education over this past year. this is a huge problem that you're facing as public schools reopen in the fall. how are you going to deal with it in new jersey? >> good to see you, claire. it is a big challenge for us. as it is for any state. and it's a particular importance for us, because we have the

number one rated public education program in america. we view that as a crowned jewel in our state. right now, about 92% of our kids are either in hybrid or full in-person. we fully expect we'll be at 100% in-person in the fall. but we have taken a significant amount of the federal misunderstand we had already received and put them up against both learning loss programs after school, professional development for our educators, summer programs, as well as misunderstand into mental health programs given the enormous amount of stress. we'll continue to do that, i would suspect with the american rescue plan money. so not that money or resources is the only answer, but i think the budget does speak of priorities. and this is a big one, you're absolutely right. the learning loss is real. in some cases, it's enormous. again, it's an equity issue. the loss is steeper in black and brown communities than on average in our state and we'll

do everything we can to get our kids back up to par. >> governor, this is gene robinson. speak with that general topic for a second. what are you telling parents who themselves might be vaccinated, but whose children are too young to be vaccinated now and who might have some degree of lingering concern about sending them back to school, sending them back into that environment, even though we all know the numbers. but what do you say to those parents to reassure them. >> gene, good to see you, as well. a rightful concern, number one. we'll put guidance out for what school looks like in the fall. we've got a very good early takeup in the 12 to 15-year-old cohort, which is the newest cohort able to get a vaccine. as we all know, we don't have a

vaccine yet, although there are vaccines and trials for the under 12-year-olds. my guess is, as a result of that, if i had to bet today that we'll have masking in schools in the fall as a result of that. and i suspect that we'll continue with some of the public health protocols inside the classroom and inside the school buildings to try to mitigate the concern. the concern is a legitimate one. i do think based on what we're hearing, we will ultimately get vaccines that will go south of 12-year-olds, which will be a huge step, perhaps not by september. so we'll continue to keep a fair amount of the steps that we've got in place, i would suspect, in the fall. >> governor phil murphy, thank you. i noticed in the fine print that the dance floors of new jersey are officially reopen, so we'll see you at dj's on friday night in belbelmar. >> that's a deal. look forward to it. >> governor, thanks so much for

your time. up next, from president obama's former national security adviser to joe biden's top domestic policy adviser, our conversation with white house official susan rice is ahead on "morning joe." e house official susan rice is ahead on "morning joe." i brought in ensure max protein, with thirty grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks!

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florida has added nearly 800,000 private sector jobs since the beginning of the covid-19 pandemic. however, governor ron desantis is not ending two other federal unemployment programs that provide benefits to freelancers, self employed workers, independent contractors and other certain groups affected by covid-19. claire mccaskill, your thoughts on this. governor redant isis is not the ome one doing this. but it is feeling like it is more of the same if terms of the very negative brand. although what would be the argument that perhaps they're having a problem getting people to come back to work. >> well, their argument is there is a labor shortage and they want to pin that on the extra $300 a month that people are getting or a week rather. i actually have never really met very many people who don't want

to work. you know, the people i've always talked to that were unemployed were looking for work and wanted work. so i do think there is an issue of some labor shortages in some sectors but there are other issues here. childcare is an issue, and regardless of what any studies say, that is a real issue for a lot of people who have left the workplace. there is a reason why more women have dropped out of the workplace than men. so there are many factors here. the number one predicting factor on whether or not they're turning this money down on behalf of the citizens of their state is whether or not these governors or republicans and whether the legislatures is republican. is that money going back to the treasury or are they going to spend it on something else? >> that is a good question, actually. where the money will go. gene robinson? >> yeah, i think there are a lot of different reasons why some people are not going back to

work. and workers in the restaurant industry for example who decided after that industry collapsed at the beginning of the pandemic that they took a look at their lives and decided that, well maybe this isn't what i want to do. tipped workers in the restaurant industry make less than $3 an hour, plus tips. and a lot of other jobs in that industry back in the kitchen are essentially not much more than minimum wage jobs. so you could try paying people more and you could get them back to work. >> that is the bottom line. i talked to folks in the white house last week and the issue is first of all some companies have to step up and actually pay people more. it is just going to have to happen. it is long over due when you look at the minimum wage and what some people are paid. but the second issue is that it

is not so easy to just jump back into work when your life is turned upside down. you may have been homeless now or turned into childcare at home. it is not -- it is just not like you could snap your fingers and go back to work. and i think that is the part of this the white house is really trying to communicate to critics of the these payments that their trying to help people stay afloat as they reconstruct their lives. coming up, a look at where negotiations over police reform, legislation, stand on capitol hill, exactly one year after the murder of george floyd. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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good morning and welcome to "morning joe," it is tuesday, may 25th, a long with joe, willie and me, we have member of the "new york times" editorial board mara gay and president of the council on foreign relations richard haass. tomorrow marks the one year anniversary of the murder of george floyd by former police officer derek chauvin. attorney for the floyd family ben crump tells nbc news that the family will meet with house speaker nancy pelosi and congresswoman karen bass this morning as well as several senators from both parties. and then they will meet with president biden at the white house. crump told nbc news he views the white house visit as an opportunity to pay proper respect to george floyd with a president who has been in continuous communication with the family. crump said he hopes that the visit will keep momentum going

toward passage of the george floyd justice in policing act. willie. >> and with this day, it also marks the deadline set by president biden for congress to present a police reform package. while they will miss that date, the lead negotiators from both parties are optimistic, a deal is now within reach. >> so we continue to work on the process. i think we have good progress over the weekend i thought and i think we are starting to see a -- >> we maefd a lot of progress over the weekend. we still have a lot to do. i'm going to be pulling long days all this week in hopes that we, by the time we come out of the weekend, we have more and more framework being put together. >> senator scott and booker there along with congresswoman karen bass of california who has been working on this. they said the anniversary of george floyd's murder drives

think work writing in a statement quote this anniversary serves as a painful reminder of why we must make meaningful change and we continue to make a compromise and remain optimistic about the prospects of achieving that goal. so one year after the conviction of murder a few weeks ago. the work continues. it is a long year in many ways in this country but it looks like there may be progress on this front, at least. >> and it looks like there may be progress and mara gay, it is so good to hear cory booker and tim scott, republican and democrat alike talking about the good progress that was made over the weekend. you do really get a sense that that progress was made because they knew this date was coming. and they just, they felt the moral compunction to do it. >> there is no doubt about it. i think that the fears among

those who support police reform is just the understanding that there is a large, significant portion of the country who is not committed to this. and i think part of the reason is that the issue has become politicized thanks to donald trump. and because of that, i think it is still going to be very difficult to put meaningful reforms into that bill. the whole battle over qualified immunity is just a preview of really i think what is going on behind the scenes. so i'm not fatalistic about it. i think there is a lot of good that could get done here. but i do continue to believe that significant reforms will have to happen at the local level in conjunction, i think, with the department of justice, who is going to continue to increase oversight over some of the police departments. and that is actually a lot of room for optimism there. this is good.

this is a good start. but there is a lot of work to be done with the commission and we've done essentially nothing -- >> let's bring in jake sherman to the conversation to check on the progress of these negotiations. he's the co-founder of punch bowl news and an msnbc political contributor. good morning, it is good to see you. so we know that the flood family and benjamin crump will meet with speaker pelosi among others but where are the sticking points. we hear the poz sieve -- positive messages where do they need to negotiate, is it qualified immunity for example. >> it is basically qualified immunity. and there has been mixed messages depending on who you talk to about qualified immunity and where it stands. a few things to node, the right people are in the room. you have the right powerful democrats who people listen to

and republicans, tim scott, cory booker, karen bass. we put in our newsletter in punch bowl news this morning, bass stayed in town this week, house is out on recess, to stay in town to continue talks and they're going to continue this week. we anticipate something will come out maybe next week. i just don't want to -- from a practical point of view, we haven't even seen the opposition on capitol hill mobilized. we know, i would imagine to be honest with you, if i were a gambling man, i do believe this will pass both chambers and get signed into law. i think it will take a little bit of time to get done. but we're hearing the right things, seeing the right things, hearing the right information, all positive signs at this point. but qualified immunity is a big thing. >> jake, let's talk really quickly about a couple of other issues that obviously are interesting a lot of people on the hill. first of all, the massive infrastructure bill.

republicans moved 500, you add the 325 or so, they're about 800 billion, biden is $1.7 billion, is there a possibility that ends up around 1.2, $1.3 billion. >> yes and no. i guess i'll put it that way. i'm becoming skeptical based on my reporting that a bipartisan infrastructure deal is going to happen. i think if you strip away all of that joe, and you talk about the pay for, how they will pay for this legislation, democrats say they will never do these user fees, republicans say they will never do the tax increases that joe biden wants. so i just don't see how you bridge that gap. so, i do think that at the end of the day there will be something done on infrastructure. i think it will be majorly paired back to be honest with you. and i just think that democrats at this point would be better served focusing on what joe manchin wants and less on what

shelley moore capito wants. but not that she's a bad person but strategically they're more likely to get a bill with democrats than they are with republicans. >> and right. and also the january 6 commission, joe manchin has made it clear that he wants to work with republicans. he's also made it very clear to republican leaders that you can screw around on infrastructure, you can do what you want on other things, but you better not politicize the 1/6 commission. he's sort of drown a line in the sand with mitch mcconnell and republican leaders. i'm wondering whether they're going to stand in the way, whether they're going to help him get ten republicans or whether this is going to end ugly. because at some point, i get the sense that manchin is giving the republicans all of the rope that he feels they need. all the slack they need to get things done. but, man, if they stonewall him

on everything, he's going to say i tried, and we got to pass some legislation with the democrats. >> i think that republicans are going to stonewall the january 6 commission to be honest with you. i think you're going to see them this week dig in even harder against it. the interesting thing is, nancy pelosi to her credit on this issue is being very, very, very flexible. more flexible possibly than i've ever seen her in the time -- the decade or more i've been covering her. she said whatever the republicans want, i'll give them besides i'm not making this investigation into blm and otherance illary issues. she's come their way on everything. and this is the reality. this is a short sighted view by republicans because we'll not get out without an investigation into january 6. so republicans have a huge amount of say over subpoenas or it is in democratic committees

which yes is partisan but they'll be able to issue subpoenas on everything, everyone, without any republican input. so i just don't get strategically why they would take themselves out of the game whether they could get 99.9% of what they want. >> still ahead, a strong man in eastern europe is challenging the west and vladimir putin is all for it. we'll run through the latest on the international incident involving an opposition journalist next on "morning joe." t on "morning joe. ♪ na na na na ♪ na na na na... ♪ hey hey hey. ♪ goodbye. ♪ na na na na...

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president joe biden is weighing in on the forced diversion by belarus about a commercial passenger jet. the incident happened on sunday when president alexander lucashenko ordering a flight carrying a journalist and traveling across europe to land

in the capitol minsk. that recorder was detained on arrival. president biden calls it a direct affront tonight norms and condemned the action as an outrageous incident. those are good words to use. the journalist whose flight was essentially hijacked mid-air has been seen for the first time and it only makes things all the more disturbing. we have video here of roman prot eich. he claimed he's in good health. he also said that police are treating him well and that he's confessing to organizing protests. it appears that he has marks on his forehead, in a statement president biden said the video appears to have been made under duress. he calls it shameful and said the u.s. joins other countries in calling for his release as

well as an if independent investigation. willie. >> so richard haus, the ryan air, the commercial airline, called it state sponsored piracy. this is a high jacking carried out by the dictator frankly of belarus. so what is the appropriate response here? we've heard outcry from joe biden and from the e.u., but what could be done about this brazen, it doesn't begin to describe what we saw, but scrambling a jet to land and pull off a journalist is something that we haven't seen. >> well this is what it is. this is hijacking, this is air piracy. it is exactly what it is. europeans come together and banded together to isolate belarus, flights won't go there. they'll pay a certain price that someone will be able to go from belarus to russia and that is the bottom line. lucashenko is president for life

because another president for life, vladimir putin, is backing him, politically and financially. so he will continue to give lucashenko whatever support he wants so the european actions will further isolate belarus and get him even closer to putin and russia. >> as a journalist and passionate believer in freedom of speech i call for his immediate release. belarus's action will have consequences wlaxt are the greatest consequences that the united states and our allies in europe could do to pressure belarus? >> again, we could do economic sanctions, we could do political sanctions, isolate them and so forth. what we can't do, apparently, is get lucashenko out of power. mr. putin has floated him something like a billion dollars in loans. look, at the risk of being so

negative, this is an example of what is going on in the world today. there is a phenomenon, the term of art show is democratic backsliding. what we're seeing is across the world it is been going on for about 15 years now, it is almost as if you have a share of stock called state of the world's democracies. this stock would have corrected, it would have lost significant value now for 15 years. belarus is one of the worst examples so long as you've got the russia and the china and others that are willing to come up, with an alternative support system, the other democracies could personalize them and isolate them but now they have oxygen like the venezuela and the cubans. so increasingly the world is divided between countries that are democrats and the authoritarians who are providing political and economic support for their own. >> wow! >> a new cold war.

>> coming up, two important voices in a struggle for a more equitable america. conversations with stacey abrams and ambassador susan rice still ahead on "morning joe." ead on ". life... doesn't stop for diabetes. be ready for every moment, with glucerna. it's the number one doctor recommended brand that is scientifically designed to help manage your blood sugar. live every moment. glucerna. before discovering nexium 24hr

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welcome back. as u.n. ambassador and national security adviser susan rice has taken on any number of tough fights on the global stage, but now she's turning her attention to challenges right here at home. as director of the white house domestic policy council. and she joined us to discuss the long list of pressing issues facing the biden administration and began with where things stand when it comes to racial justice, even beyond policing. >> there is a great deal that is begun to change because president biden has made it clear from his very first day in office that he's committed to racial justice and equity. he named it as one of the four major crisis along with covid and the economy and climate that his administration and our nation has to tackle. and that is why from his very first day in office he signed a whole of government executive order to make it clear that we

will work to advance all forms of equity and justice throughout the federal government. the legislation that he has put forward starting with the american rescue plan has embedded equity and justice at the center of it. it will reduce african-american poverty by 34% this year. it will reduce overall child poverty in this country by 50%. and it will tend to communities of different respects that have not benefited fully from the fruits of our society. so when we talk about equity, mika, we talk very much about racial equity but other forms of equity. concerns for our disabled community, veterans who have not benefited despite their extraordinary sacrifices. rural america which has been underinvested in and too often left behind. so this is a broad approach. and when it comes to issues of

race, whether it is the economy, whether it is health care and making sure that for example covid vaccines are distributing equitably and reached communities that have often been left behind in our health system, whether it is education and historic investments that the president has proposed in our nation's historically black colleges and universities, our other minority serving institutions. this is a broad based comprehensive approach. and we will of course talk about criminal justice and policing, the president has been very clear and forceful in his call for the senate to pick up and embrace the house passed version of the george floyd justice in policing act which he strongly supports because it will make an important dent in the very urgent challenge of police reform. >> ambassador rice, i was just going to ask you, how important is it that congress passes legislation that it moves on

what the house has done, whether there is a bipartisan approach, or whether the democrats go it alone. how important is the passage of that legislation? >> well, joe, it is very important legislation. it is not a cure-all. let's be realistic. but it is a very important step. and the house passed version was robust, obviously in the senate there needs to be bipartisan compromise. we need 60 votes which is why we're encouraged to see senator cory booker and senator tim scott, congresswomen karen bass and other negotiating seriously and in good faith to see if we could get a meaningfulfully reform bill out of the senate that will move the ball forward as far as we possibly can. >> from your different jobs that you've had in the past in administrations for this job, susan, what are you personally focused on, what would you like to see accomplished maybe in the first year of your work with this administration? >> well, mika, i'm on the

overall team that is trying to ensure that we are building back this country better. we played the domestic policy council played a important role in crafting and implementing the american rescue plan which is put shots in american's arms and checks in their pockets. we are instrumental on the work on the american jobs plan and the american families plan which will make transformational investments in our workers, in our young people and our children and families. making sure that we're able to compete in the 21st century in cutting-edge technologies as well as dealing with the critical challenges we face like the climate crisis while creating millions of new high-paying union jobs. so we're very much focused on that. that is my principle effort as well. as we work on racial justice and criminal justice reform as we deal with our broken immigration

system, as we work on education, k through 12, getting all of our kids back in school, building up our higher education system and ensuring that it remains the most cutting-edge and competitive in the world. all of these are issues that fall within the work of the domestic policy council, health care. one thing, mika, i want to point out is we've been making enormous progress on expanding access to affordable health care through a special enrollment period that opened in february and will close in august over 1.1 million americans have newly signed up for health care under the affordable care act. and when we pass the american rescue plan we reduced the cost of health care that you could purchase on healthcare.gov. so now an average person will

save $50 per person per month when they sign up. and four out of five families will have their costs be very, very dominimous. so this is a big deal. it brings health care to americans who need it most. and makes health care for all who have signed up far por affordable. so those are on top of my plate and foremost on the agenda. >> on tuesday you strongly condemned the anti-semitic attacks around the country but for those that didn't see that, what would you say about the attacks that unfortunately we've seen from los angeles all the back to new york. >> well, joe, these are horrific. they're despicable. we have to condemn this in the strongest possible terms. we cannot tolerate hate against any community. anti-semitism has a long and brutal history in our country and around the world. we have to fight it and stand up

and say there is no safe harbor for hate and no safe harbor for hate against anybody which is why last week the president proudly signed the covid-19 hate crimes legislation which passed congress on a broad bipartisan basis. it was particularly inspired by the horrific attacks that we've seen against asian-americans in this country over the last year but it also included very important provisions to deal with other forms of hate crimes, including anti-semitism and racist hate crimes. we have to be one on this, joe. we can't accept violence or attacks or bigotry against any segment of american society. and what we have witnessed in the last few weeks with respect to anti-semitic, anti-jewish attacks is something we cannot tolerate and we have to combat with everything we have. >> our thanks to susan rice for that conversation.

and coming up, lawmaker and voting rights advocate and now novelist stacey abrams joined us with her brand-new legal thriller. she's our guest straight ahead on "morning joe." ah, she thought that squirrel on your brand-new flat screen tv was an actual squirrel...

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oh, a new router ipsos poll finds a majority of republicans still believe donald trump won the 2020 election. 53% believe trump is, quote, the true president. 56% of republicans say the election was the result of a illegal voting or rigging and 61% believe the election was stolen from the former president. that as a republican-led hand recount of ballots cast in arizona maricopa county resumed

yesterday after a week long hiatus caused by high school graduations in the arena where the so-called audit is taking place. "the associated press" reports more tables and counters were added this week but the operation has still not reached the full capacity and the recount is taking far longer than expected. it was supposed to be completed by may 14th. and in georgia, fulton county will undergo another audit of 020 absentee ballots following claims of fraud. a ruling by a georgia judge last week allows for the ballots to be unsealed and reviewed by a group of lectors claiming they counted fraudulent ballots. review will be done under the guidance of a special master appointed by the court. joining us now minority leader stacey abrams. she's the founder of the voting rights advocacy organization

fair fight and author of the new novel, "while justice sleeps" and we'll get to that in just a moment, stacey. while you're saving democracy, you're writing books, you're pretty appraising. it is great to have you back on the show. >> thank you. >> what do you make of these so-called audits still happening and recounts in arizona and georgia? >> these are schemes designed to perpetuate not only the big lie but more concerning it is to perpetuate the insurrection. what caused that behavior on january 6 was an attempt to rewrite history and to -- the notion that all voters should have the right to be heard, that the election administration that occurred was done correctly and that the outcome of the election was correct. and instead of seeing us move on as a nation, what we're watching instead is this concerted attack on our right to vote by heritage

action, by the republican national committee and unfortunately by elected republican officials who know better but refuse to do better. >> stacey, it is willie geist. as you know very well, the votes for from the 2020 election in the state of georgia have been counted not once, not twice, but three times. so my question to you is why do groups of conspiracy theorists, and that is what they are, have access to voting machines in arizona, or absentee ballots in georgia, what is happening at the state level and in the legislature and the governor mansions that is allowing conspiracy theorists access to our voting systems. >> we're seeing conspiracy theory and power hunger. we're watching republican officials who believe their own way to stay in power is to cater to the right-wing -- and let's not say it is on the right wing, these fundamentally flawed conspiracy theories as a way to harness power and to hold on to what they want to see.

which is that they want to see certain voters kept out of the process and they want to rile their voters in a frenzy so they could use that as a galvanizing force into the next election. but the problem is, when you break democracy for any group, you break it for everyone. and what we're seeing sadly happen in maricopa county and coming to georgia, we're seeing a fracturing among republicans while this may win you immediate result, it will harm fundamentally the ability of our nation to conduct democracy fairly. >> as you know, there is a movement among republicans in the state of georgia to separate itself from the insurrection of january 6. to separate itself from the conspiracy theories that in fact it was republicans in that state brad raffensberger and others who held strong in the face of donald trump. do you see the push and pull inside of the republican party in georgia and who do you see prevailing. >> there is a bit of a push and pull with jeff duncan,

disavowing this behavior. unfortunately last week brad raffensberger issued a hallowed statement refused to recorrect what has happened, trying to sub born the notion that fulton county was wrong while taking credit for everything else being right and the reality is the single largest county voting in our state it was done properly or it was not and for months he vowed that it had been done properly and to walk that back in order to hold on to his office in 2022 is deeply disappointing. it is not surprising, but it is disappointing. but my hope is that republicans watching this play out in arizona, in georgia, knowing it is coming to a state near you, people will realize that this is a power grab a opposed to any access to our democracy and that is an issue of patriotism, not an issue of partisanship. >> how does this get communicated effectively, stacey, when you look at the numbers that i just read before our interview began, about the numbers of republicans who truly

believe that donald trump is the true president, that the election was stolen. why is that happening? and how do we counter that? how does one counter that? >> well, i would say i actually give a great deal of credit to the media for refusing to pete with this falseness the arg that there are some question about the legitimacy of the elections. we have to keep saying this was -- it is not true. but we can't keep repeating the people who are posing the lies. one of the most effective ways to combat disinformation is to refuse to repeat it and focus on telling the truth which is that the voter suppression laws sweeping this country and that the criminalization of the election workers and now the insurrectionists who are standing for office to run the secretary of state offices across this country, that this is part of a concerted effort to hold on to power. this is not about a concern about our democracy or voting.

it is about holding on to power for a group of people who do not believe that they could win fairly if they have to simply present their ideology to the people. >> all right. and while we have you, we want to hear about your new book, "while justice sleeps." tell us about about it. >> i got the idea from a dear friend who is a lawyer teresa wynn mentioned this quirk in the constitution. the only people who have a lifetime appointment have no way to remove them from their job so i wrote about a swing justice that falls into a coma and the person who has to figure out what to do to save his life and country is his law clerk avery keen. >> wow. so where did you get -- you got the concept from a friend but i love this sort of side of you. you have so many different things that you're talented of.

how much did you enjoy writing the book and do you see more in your future? >> i wrote it a decade ago in the midst of a contract on -- writing for romantic suspense, and i couldn't find a publisher for ten years now that is in world i'm proud they've ordered two new avery keen novels. >> amazing. the new novel is "while justice sleeps", stacey abrams, congratulations on book and thank you for being on the show. >> thank you. >> fake up. up next, chuck schumer said he will call a vote, quote, very soon on whether to create a bipartisan commission to investigate the capitol riot. but will republicans block it? that is next on "morning joe." facing leaks takes strength. so here's to the strong, who trust in our performance

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i will bring the bill forward for a vote very soon. the prevailing view among republicans seems to be that we should sweep the big lie and all of january 6 under the rug. i'm sorry that some republicans believe that a bipartisan investigation of the attack on our democracy is inconvenient for their midterm campaigns. we're going to vote on the january 6 commission in the senate and the american people will see where every member stands on the side of truth or

on the side of donald trump's big lie. >> that is chuck schumer vowing yesterday to bring a bipartisan bill on the january 6 riot commission to the floor for a vote despite continued republican resistance. the fbi has arrested 440 people tied to the attack so far. joining us now from the fbi counterintelligence division, frank figliuzzi. congratulations on the podcast. we'll talk about that in just a moment. i'm interested for your thoughts on investigation that continues this morning almost five months out from january 6, 440 people have been arrested as i said, painstaking work by the fbi. you still see it every day. they're posting new photographs online, help us find this person. how is this investigation going from where you're sitting? >> from those i talked to, this

has indeed become the largest, broadest investigation in fbi history, rivaling that in the aftermath of 9/11. why? two reasons. every single field office is involved. they're all got subjects i think with the exception of honolulu. but more importantly, it is the volume of data, willie, on social media that we were posting, before, during and afterwards an pouring over that has become a monumental digital forensic task. we're going to hit over 500 but it is bigger than just numbers f. it were just about numbers it wouldn't be meaningful. they seem to be flipping people who will cooperate including the founding lifetime member of oath keepers. that is significant. and we don't even know who is not -- who is cooperating but hasn't been made public yet. so for accountability purposes, it is my desire and hope to see this roll up into even lawmakers who possibly aided and abetted. that is where the public might

actually see some justice and some real accountability. >> and we're seeing many of these lawmakers standing in the way of a january 6 commission at least. there is going to be some kind of look back at what happened here. but republicans by enlarge say 35 of them last week voted against the establishment of a january 6 commission. it appears they don't want to look backward. in your eyes what is the value of a commission like the one that has been proposed? >> yeah, the an eck tote to extremist and radicalization is repeated exposure to the truth and a commission like this would be about getting to the truth in a public fashion. i keep hearing members of the gop saying look we've got all of these investigations, the fbi is wrapping up people and what is the problem. that is not for public consumption. we need an accounting publicly just as we had for 9/11. it allows country to coalesce and see what happens transparently. that is the key value. it needs to happen sooner rather

than later. >> i don't disagree, frank. i wonder how much the information, how valuable the information collected from the arrests that are being made will be to a commission that analyzes what happened and what analyzes happened and what caused this, and how useful -- and can it be used, the evidence that is going to be used in court? >> we have history and legal precedent of the fbi allowing its records to be used in commissions, so this notion that somehow a commission would interfere with ongoing investigations really doesn't hold water with me. of course, grand jury would apply and there will be secrecy to that but once things are through the process, the details can be moved over. look, we know a little hint about what they are receiving. the bulletin, what did it say? the ongoing investigation showed

a threat of violence moving forward, moving forward. they're uncovering things about plans, weapons, and coordination still to this day. >> frank, i want to sort of wrap around an overall problem that might have been caused by the previous administration and is sort of undermining our institutions, letting so much go by, it usually is addressed and confronted and given oversight to, especially from even morale and the function of the federal bureau of investigations. what are you finding in terms of from this riot to other things that have happened in the past few years that has really undermined this important institution? >> yeah, we've talked about accountability, right? and we're still even as recently as the last 48 hours. we're learning about this little intelligence spy unit inside the department of commerce. we're learning every day about abuses and exploitations at doj,

the previous attorney general, getting records of reporters not telling them per regulation. what we need is this kind of repeated exposure to the good our institutions do. morale is low. that's why i wrote a book called "the fbi way," and that's now why today we're launching a podcast called "the bureau with frank figliuzzi." what does it do? unprecedented access every week to fbi personnel who tell us about their cases, their missions, their lives. they need this, and we need this as a public to restore our faith and trust in the premier national law enforcement agency. >> i don't disagree. former white house counsel don mcghan has agreed to testify before the white house congressional committee before next week about former prz donald trump's efforts to obstruct the russian investigation, according to two people familiar with the matter. "the new york times" reports and nbc news confirmed that mcgann's

testimony will take place behind closed doors under a deal he struck with lawyers for house democrats and the justice department. according to a court filing, there will be strict limits on the testimony mcghan will provide. he may only be asked about information attributed to him or events involving him in the publicly available portions of the mueller report. so with all of those constraints, what could don mcgahn provide to help us understand what might have gone wrong, frank? >> it would be hard to overemphasize the potential value of mcghan's testimony. this is the guy who was in the room, this is the guy who would be able to tell us why the president wanted people fired. he talked the president out of things that never happened, and it goes to the heart of the president's motivation to obstruct. so in my mind, he provides evidence, further corroboration

of what mueller found, which is there are charges of offenses related to obstruction. that's where i see the value in mcghan. don't rule out the possibility he points to possible obstruction charges, lying under oath in the president's submission of written responses to mueller. this is significant. >> the new podcast is "the durio with frank figliuzzi." thank you very much so much. we appreciate you being on this morning and for the podcast. antony blinken is meeting with israel's leaders today following the deadly conflict with hamas. in addition to visiting israel, the state department says he will have discussions with leaders in the west bank, jordan and egypt. as for what's on the agenda, the white house says blinken will affirm, our, quote, ironclad

commitment to israel's committee. he will also take part in humanitarian's aid to gaza that benefits the people there and not hamas. blinken will not be meeting with hamas leaders since the u.s. labels the group a terrorist organization. this trip comes five days into a cease-fire between israel and hamas, after an 11-day conflict where more than 250 people were killed. and less than two months before the start of the olympic games in tokyo, u.s. health officials and the state department yesterday warned against travel to japan, because of a surge of coronavirus cases in the country. according to the ap, the twin alerts don't ban u.s. citizens from visiting japan and could have an impact on insurance rates for travelers and may factor into decisions by athletes and spectators on whether to compete in or attend the games.

the japanese government this morning denied the travel warning will have an impact on olympians and the u.s. olympic and paralympic committee said it still anticipates that american athletes will be able to compete safely. meanwhile, as japan ames to inoculate it's 36 million elderly people by the end of july, two mass vaccination sites opened yesterday in tokyo and osaka, which remain among provinces under a state of emergency until at least the end of this month. only about 2% to 4% of japan's total population has been vaccinated so far. that's a little ominous, willie. >> it is. we're also following new developments relating to the possible origins of coronavirus of previously undisclosed u.s. intelligence report found three researchers at a lab in wuhan, china got sick enough to be hospitalized in november 2019, just before the outbreak began.

the news first reported by "the wall street journal." nbc news senior international correspondent keir simmons has more. >> reporter: nbc news confirms the u.s. intelligence report says three researchers at a wuhan lab fell ill and even went to the hospital right before the coronavirus pandemic began. there's been growing speculation the virus escaped from the wuhan institute of virology but an earlier joint study by the w.h.o. in china controversially dismissed claims that the virus may have leaked from that lab. back in march a member of that team told us some lab researchers were ill. >> did some researchers get sick with flu-like symptoms in the fall of 2019? >> there were occasional illnesses because that's normal. nothing that stood out. >> do you many how many researchers? >> many. certainly not what they said.

>> in february an official told nbc news the u.s. has substantial intelligence that has not been made public about the actions the chinese government took related to the wuhan lab. recently, dr. fauci became the latest high-profile scientist to question china's theory that the virus came from an animal. >> i'm not convinced about that. i think that we should continue to investigate what went on in china. >> but some w.h.o. scientists insist china can be trusted. >> can you trust the chinese data? >> the scientists take the lead here and the data don't lie. >> the chinese government had responded to the report that three wuhan scientists fell ill, calling it completely untrue, accusing the united states of hyping the lab leak theory, mika. >> all right, we will continue to cover that story. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now.

this is the kitchen where the new boyfriend will unofficially become family. these are the vrbo vacation homes waiting for your family. good morning. i'm stephanie ruhle. the truth between israel and hamas falling apart. also new clues to one of the big of the mysteries out there, where exactly did covid-19 come from? when did people know about it? nbc news learned there's new evidence pointing to a lab in wuhan, china, where researchers started coming down with covid symptoms all the way back in 2019. and today, today marks one year since george floyd was murdered, starting an encounter with police in minneapolis, minnesota. his death touched a nerve across

the world and sparked a push towards justice in policing and race relations. today his family will mark the first anniversary of his death in washington, d.c., meeting first with house speaker nancy pelosi and some senators, and then with president biden and vice president harris at the white house this afternoon. i want to bring in nbc's chief white house correspondent peter alexander. shaquille brewster is in minneapolis and garrett haake on capitol hill. peter, the floyd family would like to see a bill that helps save lives and curbs bad policing. they're not going to get that, at least not today. what will they get? >> they'll certainly have a meeting here with the president the first time they've been face to face with mr. biden since he was there for them during the funeral last year. earlier in the day, as you noted, they will visit with house speaker nancy pelosi later this afternoon with the u.s. senators. and the senators said president biden wants them to hear and listen to perspectives on this issue. and i spoke with ben crump, the family attorney. he will be here