biden made a very, very stark address. i never heard a president say. and i met three of the known survivors and he laid out an important plan. and i rushed back last night for the historic defending of joe scarborough from the studio on high up here. we knew you were up there, but we weren't -- >> told the press i was up there. >> i told the president you were defending and analyzing his speech, and i'm sure he's waited with bated breath. >> suspended for three days. so what -- can i ask you this and we talked about it yesterday. extraordinarily moving what's been going on in tulsa, the recognition for really the first time in this country's history. real recognition, but i'm curious about one thing. when i was growing up, i think it was dannon yogurt that said

there were parts in russia that people lived to be 120 years old, eat yogurt and you'll live longer. i ate it until i was 11 and heard that wasn't the case. then i heard in japan, japanese live a long time so i started to eat sushi and then the french drink wine. what do they do in tulsa, oklahoma? like the president met with somebody who is like, 102? 106? 107? >> there were three -- >> over 100. >> three over 100 and the male survivor grabbed my hand, he said, i watch you all the time. and started lecturing me about what was going on. i think what drove them in talking to them in all sincerity was they wanted the story out. sometimes purpose can extend your life. >> keep you going. >> i think that the purpose of them talking about what they saw, this viciousness, this murder, their loved ones being

assaulted and killed because of the color of their skin, i think it drove them to keep living until they finally watched the president of the united states telling their story. >> validating -- >> how amazing at that age going through so much and seeing so much, willie, finally yesterday, 107, 104, 102, they actually see a president say what they have been waiting 100 years. >> they finally had their story told. it took all of the years, 100 years to have the story told. as the rev said, the president said things that no president has ever said. here's what happened, you need to understand, america, what happened on those couple of days. how awful it was and how whitewashed it's been for 100 years. so i think for a lot of people, i think the education about the tulsa race massacre began yesterday and it was very important for the president of

the united states to be there. >> here is the president in tulsa. take a listen. >> for much too long, the history of what took place here was told in silence, cloaked in darkness, but just because history is silent, it doesn't mean that it did not take place. my fellow americans, this was not a riot. this was a massacre. we must address what remains the stain on the soul of america. what happened in greenwood was an act of hate and domestic terrorism. with the through line that exists today still. >> rev, he said this was not a riot, it was a massacre and it was called for 90 years, 95 years the tulsa race riot as if it were a bunch of hooligans running around and breaking store fronts, but actually they were murdering people.

an elderly couple was shot while they prayed and these specific stories are important to embed it in the minds of americans. >> he gave it in graphic detail and he defined it by saying that it wasn't a riot but a massacre. well, to define it as president and i think three things. one, he backed it up with us istance. we're going to deal with the white to black family wealth gap and he talked about how the infrastructure bill would deal with things. second thing i think that was important is that he is not one of the quote, liberal or radicals. here's what -- he's not a latte liberal. he's a small state guy saying this, and i think i was more effective to the country if it had been a more progressive branded type of politician and third, you know, i talked to him for a while. i have to -- cedric richard

brought me over and we talked one-on-one for a while and i think he was really sincere. i think he's grown to understand the pain that a lot of us have been saying and people look at us like we're angry rather than we're anguished about what we have had to experience in life. and i think he's really begun to get it. >> very moving ceremony. speaking, by the way, of latte liberal, we have jonathan lemire here. >> wow. shots fired. >> hockey shot. >> mr. brooklyn. >> do you see the guys deliver his lattes -- >> we just knew. >> you need as many as you can. >> the skinniest jeans -- i don't know how the circulation goes up. >> he's a brooklyn guy. >> no, so joe biden, a couple things, first of all, talked about why yesterday was so important for him, why he felt like he needed to go out there and secondly, how does he deliver on the promises that are

made when you have such a dysfunctional congress? >> he wanted to fill the silence, that was his phrase. that he knows this is something -- a moment of history that was long forgotten or long suppressed and so many people did not know what happened there and the suffering and he felt it was important to confront this and bring it to life to try to heal and to move forward. tulsa is not the only one of the examples, rev, as you certainly know. he tried to close the racial gap in small businesses, home owning. not student loans which got him some gruff from the naacp and you're right, joe, he faces a congress in which he's had trouble getting things done. he called out not by name, but two moderate democrats, sinema

and manchin. look, we need their help and this is what we're seeing here. the next week or two. maybe a last ditch effort on infrastructure and then the democrats will go it alone. >> teed it all up for us. the president used the speech to call out moderate democratic senators, joe manchin, and kyrsten sinema, and while he didn't mention them by name, here's what he said by explaining that congress has not passed more of his agenda. >> june should be a month of action on capitol hill. i hear all of the folks on tv saying, why doesn't biden get this done? well, because biden only has the majority of effectively four votes in the house and a tie in the senate. with two members of the senate who vote more with my republican friends. but we're not giving up. >> well, senators manchin and sinema have both opposed eliminating the filibuster both have voted with president biden

100% of the time according to 538, which is a higher rating than bernie sanders and elizabeth warren. >> attacking bernie and elizabeth? plot twist. it's got to be really frustrating at this point because, you know, willie, you take the commission -- the january 6th commission. that is kind of low hanging fruit for the republicans to sign on to. the same thing to sign on to at any point in history, at least in our lifetimes, but not now because they don't want people to hear the truth about donald trump and then the infrastructure. infrastructure -- you know, i was trying to explain to yesterday. that was the one bill when a small group of us were constantly pushing to cut spending. we usually did pretty well, you get to transportation and

everybody would roll over you because they all wanted a bridge in their district. they all wanted whatever. money for whatever infrastructure project they wanted. and so, infrastructure should be easy. that a's the one thing that republicans and democrats come together with. if they can't get ten republicans on the infrastructure bill, it's not going to happen. >> well, they're not going to get ten republicans on the infrastructure bill as they propose it at -- as the white house has proposed it. the republicans have come back with a billion dollars counteroffer. they said this is about infrastructure, not the other stuff that is extraneous, but this is about the filibuster. joe biden calling out joe manchin who said, guys, you can keep asking me about the filibuster, i'm not going to change my answer. we need to keep the filibuster so they're trying to put the downward pressure on manchin and sinema, i need you to blow through the filibuster to get

the stuff through and joe manchin has said, i'm not doing it. >> democrats will hold on to the new mexico seat that was vacated by interior secretary deb hall land. and melanie -- beat her closest challenger mark morris in yesterday's special election to represent new mexico's first congressional district. stansbury campaigned on the biden agenda and captured 60% of the vote and it shores up the house majority heading into the midterms. >> so jonathan, this was a must win for democrats. republicans were thinking if they won this thing, boy, it would be a sign that there was going to be just bleeding in 2022 for the democratic party. but they held on and held on pretty comfortably. >> yeah. they did. a candidate who aligned herself with joe biden's agenda and it would have been a warning sign

to the democrats if they had won that. the party does not have the white house tends to pick up the seats in the off-year elections. and if the republicans had picked this off early that would have been a great sign for them. and let's remember that democratic margin is so narrow. we keep talking about a 50/50 tie in the senate, they have an edge in the house. but at least here, that's a victory, one that the democrats were confident they'd get and they got it and they have to play defense for all of the seats coming in '22. >> let me ask you something going back to the filibuster. i have to say rank and file americans like i just never heard them come up to me and talk about -- people who watch this show, people who watch cable news, people who are really focused on politics, maybe they know about the filibuster, but for 90% of americans, like, do they even care about the filibuster? because joe manchin -- he's

getting the political points in west virginia for pushing back on the filibuster. >> i think that half of americans doesn't understand or does not have knowledge and there's not been a national kind of campaign to the public about the filibuster. this has all been inside beltway politics, but it does impact a lot and i think that we're going to see between infrastructure and the george floyd bill and the voting bill a real reckoning of how we deal with. the president of the urban league and i traveled together yesterday and he's arranged for us to meet with manchin to talk about some of the bills so there's going to be attempts to try to deal with this one way or another because there are real lives impacted. but i think the president by calling them out yesterday puts pressure from the top. the question is whether something starts brewing from the bottom, but i think until that happens you're right, the average person just feels the congress is either getting

things done or not getting things done. they have no idea what a filibuster is. >> and that's the problem. i understand -- i'm sort of an institutionalist. i wouldn't want the filibuster to be gone, i like tradition. in the senate, i don't want things to move really quickly. i said last year, yeah, you can change the number of the supreme court. everyone says it's unconstitutional. you can move it to 12 or 20, i don't want it to happen, but constitutionally it can be done. in the case of the filibuster, willie, it seems to me that we have a choice. i mean, we can either have the senate institution, some of these procedures that have been in place for quite some time protected or we can actually have a branch of government protected. which really can't get anything done. you look at the last six years of barack obama's presidency, next to nothing got done because

republicans wouldn't pass anything. please, somebody tell me, the biggest -- like what landmark bill did barack obama pass in the last six years? nothing. because they shut him down and now the last four years, trump had a tax cut. that's about it. that's about it. so this senate doesn't work, congress doesn't work. it doesn't pass big legislation anymore. that's why republicans win one year, democrats two years later. republicans win two years later. at some point, give the americans a choice. if democrats want to go big, it's bigger than i'd want to go, if they want to go big, then go big and give americans that very clear choice which you can't get when nothing ever gets passed. >> that's exactly the argument made by the democrats in the senate, progressives who said, look, the choice is we can preserve this institution called the filibuster or we can get

better on voting rights or we can have a january 6th commission, and the list goes on and on, for people saying, jonathan, look, we can sit here and have this gridlock and try to convince joe manchin to go one way or the other but we're not getting anything done. so the question will be, are they willing to strip away an institution, the filibuster to get through their big agenda and joe manchin so far has said no. >> and there are others who are less public about it and they don't want to see the filibuster go away. there's some momentum that maybe it will be talked to the talking filibuster, making it harder to use, but this goes to the overall argument that president biden is saying, look, we're working with the republicans on everything that should be layups like the january 6th and it's a good faith effort and sending a

signal. look, we reached out our hand and if they won't take it on this, then they won't take it on anything else. >> what's the republican response when the democrat will say, well, wait a second. mitch mcconnell made the exception, the supreme court justices, just made that out of whole cloth. that have a breach in tradition. harry reid breached the tradition of the filibuster by having the carveout for federal judges. i thought that was a mistake. i didn't think he should have done it, i said it at the time. but they made the exceptions so why can't the democrats make an exception for the voting rights, january 6th commission. this isn't your run of the mill legislation. if you can make an exception for supreme court justices, one of the most important things that you do, you can't make an exception for a january 6th commission? that's just stupid. that doesn't make any sense at

all. >> lifetime appointments on the supreme court, of course. there had been some thought early on when joe manchin had defended the voting rights two months ago, people around him, the white house aides, they thought they might be the one place where he'd be willing to go. that maybe that's the issue on voting rights where he'd be willing to reform or eliminate the filibuster but he's only dug in rhetorically since then. there isn't a sense that he'd support it. the voting rights are coming to the end of summer that's going to be last because that's the whole ball game. that's the holy war that's coming. these are all the fights that lead up to. >> well, manchin has said that he'd not support the senate bill one, but he'd support the john lewis bill that will go through the house. but joe, you struck on what many of us are going to raise. if you can take three of the

bills and say, on these three things, i'm going to do this, i want to maintain the filibuster, but on these three things i'm going this route and give us voting rights and give us january 6th or give us george floyd. but to say you're not doing anything, given where this country is at, i think that's the thing we want to talk to manchin about and i think that's why the president called him out. because they're really obstructing -- the public may not know what filibuster means but they know they're being screwed around on some very important issues. >> you're right. you named the issues, mitch mcconnell makes the issue on the judges and harry reid makes the exception for district court judges and appeal court judges so it seems to me if you're looking at legislation that goes to the core of this democracy, voting rights, the 1/6

commission, then where exactly are you getting the justification to allow that to be held up on the filibuster? because the filibuster is not based in the united states constitution. it doesn't go back to the constitution. this is something that they moved. they moved the number up, moved the number pack. kind of like supreme court justices under lincoln, it moved up or back. there's no justification for this. >> zero. >> no justification whatsoever. i mean, there's not even clean ideological justification for this. you look at the history of it, willie, and again, you look and see, i'm going to keep saying it. i'm just going to keep saying it. harry reid decides one day to get rid of the filibuster for federal judges and then mitch mcconnell decides, okay, we'll get rid of the filibuster for the supreme court judge. i want somebody to tell me what has more of an impact on the

united states government than that, and if you can get rid of the filibuster for that, you can't get rid of the filibuster for the 1/6 commission? there's no logic there. >> if you can't get the 60 to look at what happened on january 6th, what's the point of the exercise. there's a lot more to get to. some great news, new developments in the fight against coronavirus. moderna has filed for full u.s. approval of its covid-19 vaccine currently authorized for emergency use. pfizer and biontech sought full approval a few weeks ago, but moderna will continue to submit data on a rolling basis over the coming weeks as it seeks full approval. meanwhile, new york city reported zero covid-19 deaths yesterday. >> i'm sorry, what did you say? my earpiece is not working. >> zero deaths from covid-19 in new york city yesterday, and reached a record low positivity rate of 0.83%.

that's the lowest since the city began tracking numbers last year. the last time that new york city reported no new covid-19 deaths was in august. new york state reported an all-time low positivity rate marking 57 straight days of decline. joe, this one's for you. >> oh, good. >> everyone wondering if vaccine incentives work, krispy kreme announced it's given away -- ready for this? >> wait a second. i have got moderna, i'm going to collect all three. if they're giving away krispy kremes, i'm jumping -- >> are you ready for how many doughnuts they have given away? 1.5 million doughnuts given away by krispy kreme. the company is one of the first businesses to roll out a nationwide incentive offering a free glazed doughnut to anyone with a valid vaccination card. the program will continue through the end of the year. >> you cannot get another

vaccine. >> i'm going to get three. >> they're speaking to you, krispy kreme doughnuts and lottery tickets. >> that got me through a lot of lonely nights. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe," a big reveal when it comes to women rewriting the rules of success. in just a little while, forbes and know your value will reveal the inaugural class of entrepreneurs, leaders, creators, who make up the first 50 over 50 list, selected from 10,000 nominees. plus, president biden is set to resume infrastructure talks with a key republican negotiator. plus, miami-dade police are still searching for three gunmen responsible for a mass shooting over the weekend. it is just the latest in a string of deadly incidents and it comes as gun sales are on the rise. steve rattner joins us next with charts. you're watching "morning joe," live in new york city. we'll be right back. we'll be ri.

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it is 26 past the hour, and look, joe, a car. a car in times square. >> yeah. we had a car. "new york post" on set. we haven't been able to do that in a while. >> been a minute. >> they won't walk up. >> this is great. steve rattner is with us. steve, so the city, we came in yesterday and parts seemed to be a little -- a little more quiet

than usual, but i'll tell you what, we got across most of the city and had that really nice, sweet, comforting sound of like honking horns and traffic jams. so it looks like new york is starting to come back. >> yeah. new york has really opened up. the restaurants are open or full capacity and they're jammed. can't get a reservation. there are people out and about. the metropolitan museum this weekend had 10,000 people waiting outside in the rain to try to get in on sunday. yeah, it's very much back, but with an asterisk. people are not back in their offices so offices are 10, 15, 20% occupied at the moment which means that midtown during the business week is not what it was. people are dying to get out and they're getting out. >> why aren't the offices opened again? >> well, this is much debated. this is because the people don't want to go back or because the employers are being more careful, it's a little bit of

both. we have most of our people back three days a week, but it's coming slowly and work is going to change. there going to be more work from home relatively indefinitely. >> what are you feeling about the economy from what you see? >> it is certainly -- certainly people are moving around more, but the fact that we lost so many small businesses, which were jobs, the fact that you have a lot of homelessness that is very apparent. now, how do you shift those who were in shelters, put in motels back into shelters? >> that's going to be a challenge for the next mayor and we have talked about this. you have people -- the homeless that moved into hotels, vacant hotels, some with real mental health challenges and now tourists are going to come back and the hotels are -- you know, they're going to need to make money or they're going to lose their business. so how is the next mayor going to get the people that have

ridden covid out in those hotels back out and treat them? >> and the challenge for people like me in civil rights, the way they're going to do it is they're going to use police which is going to inevitably lead to some type of inaction that may be something less than what we want. but you can't ask motel owners to just give up their space and become a shelter because that's not what they're in the business of. it's going to be management problems on the ground as well as a growing body of unemployed people because these small businesses are not coming back. >> rev is right about the small businesses. if you walk outside of my building, our diner closed, dry cleaner close and and the barber closed and some of them scrambled and found other ways but others are not coming back. there's celebration for good reason. if you grow to sen -- if you go to central park, it's just

booming, there's a lot of people out there and there's a lot of residual pain. >> you can see that during the people who were lost during this. either lost economically or lost their lives and steve rattner with crime going up, you're looking at what's happening in the gun industry. but, i mean, already crime is going up and then this factor. >> yeah. crime is going up and, look, we have talked about guns a lot on this show and it's sad we have to talk about it again but when you see what's going on out there in terms of gun use, gun purchases, so on, we really need to talk about it. so got some charts if you want to have a look. >> yeah. >> let's look first at gun sales. we use the fbi background checks as a proxy to get more real time data and you can see this is through the first four months of the year, through april. you can see they were kind of sitting at a plateau of 8 billion to 10 billion applications and then in 2020, it jumped up and then in 2021,

it has jumped up to record levels in terms of people getting -- applying for gun permits. one of the things that's certainly an interesting fact about this, of the first-time gun purchasers, roughly 20% of them, 40% are actually women. so it's not only your stereotypical black male. a fifth of them were black, a fifth were hispanic and now we're to the point where 40% of all american households own guns and that's up from 32% just a few years ago. now, gun sales often spike after big events. and part of it is out of fear of regulation that they think the time is going to have when we'll have gun regulation, so after the george floyd murder, after the capitol insurrection, things like that, you get a jump in gun sales. but if you take a look, we had a mass murder happen in florida. and after mass shootings you see something interesting. the first lower lines are 2017, 2018 and this is after the course of the year, so it tracks from the beginning of the year to the end of the year and then

you see in 2019 which is the orange line or the yellow line that it jumped up a bit. look what happened in 2020. it set a new record of over 650% higher than in 2019. you can see on that turquoise line that it began to spike right about the time the pandemic hit. so the pandemic seems to have had a big -- played a big role in this huge increase in mass shootings and then the black line is what's happened so far this year and you see that again, we're tracking well ahead of where we were last year. as the pandemic ebbs, it will be interesting to see whether this drops off or not. right now, it is at very high level people attribute the rising factors to this. the pandemic, the lockdown, schools were closed, kids were out in the streets a lot of stuff happened that we wish hadn't happened. but the other thing that's happening that you guys just alluded to is the murder rate. so the murder rate as you know for many years was coming down. for several decades it was

coming down. again, we don't have national data yet, but if you look at what's happened on a city level, year to date, first four months of the year, approximately, you can see it was pretty flat in chicago for a good while. it was flat in new york although creeping up, creeping up a little bit in philadelphia and look what happened in 2021, it just took off. and again, we can debate what's going on out there, but the facts are pretty incontrovertible, you have a huge increase in murders so last year, 2020, we actually had the same murder rate across the whole country that we had in 1998, 20 years ago. nowhere near the peak earlier in the 2000s, but pretty bad and then it's been coming back up. we'll see where it goes from here. but, joe, after all these years, we see the statistics over and over again. they get worse and worse. you now have in addition to the mass shootings and in addition to the gun ownership, now you

start to see the murder rates and the violence in the cities going up and the question is when are we going to do something about this? >> i'd love you to make up a group of charts, because i heard it -- i don't know how accurate it is. but an extraordinarily low percentage of crimes are committed by people who use the gun that they purchased legally. the overwhelming majority of crimes are committed by people who use guns that they got illegally or they didn't purchase themselves. so i just -- i have been hearing over the past couple of days, people blaming the rise in crime to people purchasing more guns over the past year. if you want, go after me on twitter. i don't see that. and that's based on -- you know, growing up in the south, growing up in a gun culture, i own guns myself. i go to the gun shops myself, and you go in there and you see

who's in there and these aren't people that are like saying, hey, let's go down to miami and shoot the place up. a lot of women, a lot of older people of all demographic groups, and the first, basically, run on guns and run on ammo came during the covid lockdown. people were afraid, what's going to happen next? you know? sort of this apocalyptic thinking and the new buyers are women and it breaks the stereotype. oh, it's just young black men, all the other side thing, it's just a redneck, a survivalist. no, that's not what gun owners look like this year. and so that's why i think if you're trying to make that

causation problem between new gun ownership and crime that's going there, history is going to prove -- not you, but just prove you wrong if that's your argument. because that's just not what was happening this year. >> that may well be, but what i can show you next time, it's a chart that shows you there's a direct correlation between the number of guns owned per capita and looking at countries around the world and the amount of crime that -- use of guns illegally occurs and australia, they put in a strict gun regulation and the use of guns and violence went down substantially. i'm not saying there's a lot of guns out there doing a lot of illegal things but there's a correlation between the number of guns out there and what happens. >> rev, what do you think? >> that's why we need some form of gun legislation, in terms of

i.d. and background checks because, again, if what you say is so and i think that his data will back it up, that the people that are going in gun shops and all that are legally buying guns are not the problem. there's all the more reason why we need to have background checks and more stringent laws in terms of how we deal with gun manufacturers and distribution and all. because we're not dealing with people that are clearly saying i can identify who i am, i had the right kind of background. we are dealing with people that can't do that, but because we're not having real laws coming down on that to distinguish between the two, this is growing rather than shrinking. >> yeah. you're right. right now, if you go into the gun shops, give your i.d., you have to fill out your forms, you give it to them and you don't have -- you know, a conceal -- if you don't have a carry permit you're going to wait a week, right? so you go back in, the next week you get your gun, but the

problem is, what happens when you have somebody showing up in the parking lot and they open up the back of their trunk and, you know, start selling guns which, of course, happens and then you have the gun shows. there are exceptions to this, and i think that's what 90% of americans want. universal background checks, for all purchases because that's really where we have a lot of the major problems. if you look at the overall number of killings. >> yeah. i think any police chief in new york or philly or baltimore or chicago would back up what you're saying which is that the crimes that they see committed on their streets night in and night out are not people walking into the local sporting gun store they're all black market, coming in from indiana and chicago and that's where the crime is happening and after mass shootings the focus is on semiautomatic rifles and whether or not they should be banned but the trouble is handguns and a

lot of them were bought illegally. >> this is something that mayor bloomberg said and if we want to get serious about the deaths from guns, you're exactly right. mayor bloomberg when we were talking, he was discussing ar-15s. he said -- as i understand, that's for good reason, you see a school shot up and young kids, we're going to talk about that on television for a week or two. he said if you look at the numbers though, if you look at the statistics, that's not what's driving the number of deaths. gun deaths exploding. that's driving the media coverage of these horrible tragedies, mass shootings. but just look at what happened to chicago every weekend or just look at what happens in major cities every weekend and again, that's where you have to figure out a way to tighten up the background checks. got to figure out a way to cut back radically on illegal gun sales because that's -- i think that's what's driving -- can i

give you this assignment? back in our community, can we find out what percentage of crimes and of deaths do police believe are committed by people who illegally purchased a gun? >> i will find that out. but remember for there to be an illegal guns there have to be guns around. >> right. >> you have to have a country in which there's a gun culture and a huge majority of guns floating around and i don't know the answer, it's not a statistical answer, why are murder rates going up now? we have had guns for a long time floating around. >> people don't want to know the answer. you can give them -- they don't want to know the answer. why the crimes is going up. i give them the answer and they get really mad. you know why. we won't answer it though. >> pretty awkward ending to the

block, honestly, joe. >> cops are back -- cops are back -- >> come on. >> see what i said? see what i said? nobody wants to hear this. >> start -- >> cops are back on their heels. >> no. >> good cops are back on their heels right now. >> i need reverend al to step in here, because we can all agree but add context. >> no, no. nobody wants to hear this. i didn't want -- >> in context. >> no, but you're not letting me say it. this is retro "morning joe." >> we're back. >> we're back, baby. but rev, i have heard this. it's a balancing act, okay? i'm into die let cal thinking, we do need major reform of policing in america. this is the truth.

i'm holding it in my hand. at the same time, we need to let good cops know they can do their job because, rev, as we discussed time and time again, the people who are hurt most by increase in crime, it ain't people in westchester county and new canaan, connecticut. it's people in like the toughest part of the bronx, the toughest part of brooklyn, and they and their representatives will say defund the cops, are you kidding me? we need more cops in our schools, we need more cops on the streets, we need more cops protecting us and again -- and along with that, reform. >> i think you're right, and how we apply those funds and where they're appropriate, but that is why and you and i have talked about this, that is why we need things like this george floyd bill. >> right. >> because it makes good cops also reluctant, not the cops

saying, i'm mad because there's a police reform bill. if we define what the law is for policing, then good cops would not be reluctant to say am i going to get hit with this or that. there's no real defining of policing now in the country because it goes from episode to episode, incident to incident which is all the more reason why we need the police reform bills so good cops as well as bad cops know where the line is. we don't know where the line is now. >> yeah. by the way, willie, police officers will be the first to tell you, hey, i'm not a mental health counselor. >> yeah. >> so when people are saying that's part of the reform, get them out of mental health, they don't want to be mental health counselors. they don't want to be marriage counselors at 3:00 in the morning when they're knocking on doors and they don't know if they'll get shot or not. i mean, there are a lot of things that police officers don't want to be a part of i think that -- you know, there's common ground. >> yeah, they're all for building out the resources. if you want more to have more

mental health professionals, put in the money to help them and not make them do that. we'll have katherine garcia on the show, she's currently the front-runner in the race to be the new york mayor. that will be a great conversation with her because defunding or at least reforming police is at the center of the mayor's race. >> all i'm saying is it's a really big conversation. if we don't go to break, we'll need a marriage counselor. >> mika, you were triggered or something. >> steve rattner, thanks. nice to see you. >> good to be back. >> good to be back. >> come in again. >> coming up, our next guest says the united states from democracy is not a uniquely american experience. ben rhodes joins us straight ahead on "morning joe." with voltaren arthritis pain gel, my husband's got his moves back.

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democracy must be defended at all costs for democracy makes all this possible. democracy. that's the soul of america. and i believe it's the soul worth fighting for and so do you. a soul worth dying for. >> that's president biden speaking about democracy on memorial day. joining us now former deputy national security adviser to barack obama, ben rhodes and he's the author of the new book "after the fall." >> can i ask you the question? where is ben right now? looks like he's in his house, are you phoning it in? what are you doing? >> guys, i woke up at 3:00 in the morning here in los angeles. >> all right.

>> you have a pass. you have a pass. >> also with us, look who's here, former aide to the george w. bush white house, our dear friend, elise jordan, nbc political analyst as well. >> like a homecoming. >> yeah. >> hey -- >> right in the middle. >> there's a lot to cover with you. first of all, ben, thanks for being up this early on west coast, but joe biden's speech on monday took on a heavier meaning when he talked about the necessity at this point to sort of stand in the door of democracy and defend it in a way we haven't had to in many generations. what's your view of where we are right now in terms of our democracy, in terms of the difficulty getting a january 6th commission even established to look back at what happened on that day? >> look, i think joe biden gets it, this is a central challenge

of the world right now and i wanted to interrogate after the 2016 election when i was picking myself up off the ground, putin was on the offense, xi jinping was more of a character and for me the book really started when i went to hungary and i met with a young activist who told me, i said, look, how did you go from being a democracy to basically single-party autocracy in a decade because of what happened in hungary? he said it's quite simple. there was a right wing populist and then changed the voting laws to make it easier to support, enriched the cronies who bought up the media and turned it into the right-wing party and he wrapped it up in an us versus them, them being muslims, immigrants, liberal elites,

george soros and i'm thinking to myself, this sounds awfully familiar, what's happening to the united states. sure enough, when you interrogate the playbook was taken from putin's playbook, this is something that's spread across the world. at the same time, xi jinping and the chinese have become much more assertive in pushing their model and not only as government, but as a society. what joe biden understands and having worked with him over the years, we are at an existential moment at this country in america, not because the republican party has become so extreme but it's part of a global trend. this is the direction of events. we have to reverse that because if we lose democracy as we have seen in many other places it is hard to get it back. >> ben, one of your main points is that corruption really turbo challenges to fall into authoritarianism and the united states, you know, we have seen

over the last -- the four years of the trump presidency, how we are not immune to corruption ourselves, but it seems a little hopeless almost. how is that something that is going to change around the world, anti-corruption efforts and combatting that? >> that's exactly right, and one of the people i spent some time talking to for this book is novelny in russia who built his entire career around anti-corruption and he said the most damaging thing for the trump years for him and people around the world was not any one u.s. foreign policy. he said to me and we were talking on facetime because i'm sanctioned by the russians to travel there. he said over the summer, look, i built my whole career on the idea that at least on a democracy, the person who rises to the top of the system there's some meritocracy behind that and

it's not just because of corruption. now you have somebody in the united states in trump who has fundamentally reached the top of the system and that undercuts everything i have been saying in russia that's something that putin wants that's something -- he said that a normal russian on the street can understand. and i think this is what we have to understand is that corruption is on the one hand, the danger because if you look at a guy like putin what he's done is he's built an entire system where he and his buddies get rich, they use that wealth to stay in power and punish anybody who challenges it. but corruption is also the vulnerability of the autocrats and that's why putin put him in prison. it's not usually just the lack of freedoms, but it's people's anger at the corruption they see. that was the same thing that happened in belarus with lukashenko, putin's buddy. one of the ways to go on offense

against people like putin and the autocrats is to go after their corruption. not just by sanctions but by laying out there in the same way that navalny was doing. >> i think that the concern of our -- that the erosion of our democracy is happening and you see wit the january 6th insurrection and the truth and high-level russian officials siding with the insurrectionists and talking about it and their support for trump loyalists around the world. >> sure. i mean, just because trump is out of office doesn't mean that the threat he posed to the democracy is over. that's what so many democrats are saying and that's what you know, we were grappling with, the republicans who kiboshed the january 6th commission seemed to be parroting putin's talking points. putin is meeting with joe biden in geneva for the first summit. what's your assessment in terms of what the president's goals will be for that and how there's

a belief that russia they want to deal with now because they feel like the big game, the overarching goal will be china. that's the defining relationship of this term. >> well, look, i think it is absolutely the case that china is the main challenge to the united states. they are the country that's put forward the alternative view of the society to the united states and that said, i wouldn't have any hope or expectation that vladimir putin is going to curb his own excesses because it's about him staying in power. look, i speak to experience from the navalny years. so i think what they're trying to do with the summit is it is at least trying to arrest some of what's happening in the united states and russia. i would caution them that they're going to change the orientation of a guy like vladimir putin, and i don't think they do believe that.

however, whether we're dealing with russia or china, the most important thing the united states can do, i have come to believe and i'm still learning this, is not any foreign policy. we have to get our own act together. the most people want from us around the world, we can demonstrate that a multiracial democracy can work. and we have a lot of work to do to demonstrate that reality. >> the new book is "after the fall being an american in the world we have made." ben rhodes, thanks so much for waking up so early on the west coast for us. still ahead, u.n. ambassador john bolton joins us. plus, one of the front-runners for new york city mayor will be joining us on "morning joe." bou♪

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high drive towards the left field corner, o'neill racing back. makes the catch, and that ends the game. drilled deep to left field. turning, looking. see ya. walk it off. a two-run home run for frazier. >> mika, fantastic. >> i'm not looking. >> by the way, this is really not fair. rays fans always telling me, we're the best teams in baseball and you guys talk about boston and new york. boston and new york. so we're saying rays highlights. >> for the first time. >> hottest team in baseball. i hear they have a baseball in san diego as well. >> san francisco.

>> san francisco is great. and san francisco, l.a. and san diego -- >> okay. >> hey, we haven't even begun to talk. so last night, i asked, the rays are hot. they have won 16 out of 17 before last night, hottest team in baseball. so i'm starting to worry, am i going to have to start rooting for the yankees to actually slow the rays down? >> come to the dark side. >> last night they came through. >> frazier saved the game and he saved it in the bottom of the 11th, hitting the walk-off home run and the rays were walking all over them this season and they have for the last few years. they were -- the yankees in jeopardy of falling 4 1/2 out and now the footsteps of the loveable team, mike barnicle -- >> what's the date? >> we're in june. >> this is why we play 162

games, willie. >> come on, celebrate a good night in the bronx. >> great night for aaron boone and the yankees. >> what's your over/under for when aaron boone is fired? >> i don't think he'll be fired. i don't think he'll be fired. i think brian cashman will make some moves on the team. some guys are going down to aaa, i think he'll acquire a couple of guys. >> ironically, the pitching was the concern coming into the season. they pitched pretty well. >> yes. >> they just can't hit. >> yeah. >> they have a lineup, they cannot hit. >> well, they haven't spent any money on hitting yet. >> one of the low-budget teams. >> they are. jonathan, it's not a good sign when the game hasn't started and you're fretting against the astros last night. i get a text, oh, my god, things aren't going well, this is going to be a long night because you didn't like how the national anthem was kind of unfolding.

>> note that willie banned me to the flash cam so willie wouldn't be outnumbered. i can only assume that video packs and drums and video equipment must have been involved in our defeat yesterday. >> it was the summoning of the bullpen reliever, that's what did it. >> okay. >> with the trash can, get him out there. mika, you might like this one. the loveable baltimore orioles -- >> i love baltimore. >> they're having their struggles this year, to put it mildly. watch this. this is monday. twins outfielder rob rest snyder he crashed into the wall, he took a shoulder to the wall. so the grounds crew at camden yards had memorialized that moment with a change outline of his body on the wall. by the way, the orioles snapped

a 14-game losing streak. >> good. >> they're off the schneid. kasie hunt is smiling somewhere. >> any time you see a guy going back and trying to catch the ball, you know it's not going to go well. you have to think of jose canseco, bouncing of his head. >> is that fenway? >> in the next half hour, we're revealing the inaugural forbes 50 over 50 list. worked with. i have a piece in here as well. >> great. >> about how these women were chosen, women over 50, who have achieved success well after 50 and are paying it forward to other women. we had over 10,000 submissions, and this was an incredible response. forbesre was really blown away the instant reaction. there's shonda rhimes. but there are many, more women that we'll be revealing at half past the hour.pa

and we kicked it off with kamala harris yesterday, but, wow, thesete stories are inspiration. >> there's kamala again. >> i'm so excited for this and it's important. >> the list is for younger women and we'll tell you why at half past the hour. to the news now, president biden paid tribute to the victims of the deadly tulsa race massacre and addressed the nation's continuing struggle with racial justice. biden toured the greenwood community center and met with survivors to mark 100 years since the brutal attack that killed hundreds of black americans and destroyed their thriving neighborhood. it was the first time a president toured the site of the tulsa attack. biden also recommitted his administration's promise to right the wrongs of the past through new programs to combat racial inequality. >> for much too long the history of what t took place here was td in silence, cloaked in darkness,

but just because history is silent it doesn't mean that it did not take place. my fellow americans, this was not a riot. this was a massacre. we must address what remains the stain on the soul of america. what happened in greenwood was an actd of hate and domestic terrorism. with the through line that exists today still. >>ts joining us now, white hous correspondent for politico and co-author of "the play book" eugene daniels. he's also an msnbc contributor and he is in tulsa this morning. and so, eugene, i think it was important alsoth the president clarified what happened there. it's important to remember but also to remember it correctly. and ime think he did that effectively yesterday. >> no, absolutely. and everyone in the crowd

agreed, theow people standing outside justpe hoping to get a glimpse of biden as he walked out also agreed with him, mika, because this is the first president who has come here to commemorate and mark an anniversary of thean tulsa race massacre. and that is not lost on the people here. they talked about how important it was for him to be here, but more importantly for him as he did in the sound bite you just played to connect the line from what happened inec tulsa to whas happening still in this country today and also the impact of things that happened back to the race massacre in tulsa, it didn't just happen in tulsa, it happened all over the country in different ways during theth '60 and '70s, or during the '60s and before. and that is something that these people here in tulsa are constantly thinking about because most of us haven't heard -- didn't hear about the tulsa race massacre until the last year or two. so y president biden here talki aboutid that, talking about and meeting with the three survivors ages 100 to 107 left here that

are still alive and protected by this community and lifted up by this community. that was huge for people because that's something that no president had done yet. >> eugene, as you say, this history in tulsa and across the country has been whitewashed and lied about, frankly, portrayed as ay, riot where some hooligan went around breaking stuff. businesses and homes were burned ground. i'm curious from your perspective just on a human level what it was like to be there, what some of those 106 and 7-year-olds who were children at time but who survived, what was it like to be there and see the president interact with those people? >> yeah. i mean, it's heavy, willie. like this is -- black reporters when we cover issues of race, we are often supposed to move aside theos blackness, which is reall hard. and not engage in it on a human level, but i've been here since sunday interacting with the tulsa, talking to descendants of people whoal

survived thee tulsa race massacre, being around these survivors. and it is ahe reminder of one, w far this o country has come, bu how far we have to go because when you look at the whitewashing and t sanitizing o different things that happened in this t country, when it come to race, that is still happening to this day, right? this was covered up by people. this wasn't something that folks forgot n'about, right? this was covered up by law enforcement officials, covered up by local leaders. and so this resurgence of this conversation and also this connection to the way that things have been happening in this country still, especially when it comes to police -- police-involved shootings in this cecountry, all of that is something that was kind of strange to be a part of and walking down greenwood where, as you know, looking at right now, what used to be black wall street and walking down that street, which now has a highway running through it, it is a reminder of how the government

and people here in this country didn't help black people. >> yeah. >> and asking for it more now. >> well, and biden being there and saying that i would hope foo those survivors and people in tulsa, it would be some validation finally, at least. at the very at least. eugene, i knowst you're coverin the infrastructure talks and the president is meeting with shelly mother cap toe. >> first solo meeting between these two. shelly has been kind of leading on this issue. and meeting with the president with another group of senators who have been calling basically being the productive republican senators on this issue. so what we know right now is that these are real meetings, right? in the media we always wonder how serious talks are when negotiations are happening. mostly because it hasn't happened in the long time, it's been a long time since we had a

serious back and forth between an administration and congress on some issues so they're really trying to work out things here, not for the show of it as has been pointed out a lot because theyut really want to get something done. both shelly morcapito and the biden white house. they're hoping to hammer out some of these things but the problem is they are very far apart in the amount of new money that republicans are willing to spend in their deal, what is in the infrastructure bill, what can be instituted -- what can constitute as infrastructure. so there'sns all these really b things that they have to work out. but president biden is serious about it and is willing to put her wholein weight behind it. obviously doing this one-on-one meeting with one senator, but also this white house you talk to people behind the scenes what they keep telling us, we're not waiting forever. i think you have maybe a week, maybe a week and a half before the white house starts to say, okay, we need to go it alone because they're frankly just running out of time nor to be

done in congress. i think that's the biggest aspect here. >> politico's eugene daniels. thank you very much. and as president biden works on his domestic agenda, there are major foreign bar most citizens from leaving the country. more and more citizens have been trying to flee since the disputed election win of long-time leader alexander lukashenko last year. the country claims the decision to ban foreign travel was due to the covid-19 pandemic. last month, the u.s. and allies condemned belarus government, the government after it forced a plane to land a commercial plane so they could arrest a journalist who was critical of its urrule. joining us now, former ambassador john bolton, he served as national security adviser under president donald trump. and is the author of "the room

where it happened" a white house memoir. he wrote an op-ed, criticizing and sanctioning lukashenko is no substitute for an actual strategy on belarus and he writes in part this -- there is no question the west rightly concluded that belarus committed air piracy, behavior entirely consistent with the regimes, autocratic methods and alexei navalny and many others can testify has the hallmarks of putin's equally authoritarian state next door. unfortunately, however, virtue-signaling, even accompanied by economicna sanctions, does not constitute a satisfactory western strategy to resolve a vastly more important issue. what is the future for belarus as a whole. will it be encouraged to follow the path of former warsaw pact states and at least some former soviet republics into the west? or will it be allowed to suffer full annexation into russia and

i never thought i would say this but i agree with john bolton here -- >> what do you mean? m he and your dad -- very funny, mika, that i was picking up my kids from school, i was waiting in line 12 things. but i texted ambassador boltton and accidentally followed up secretary bolton. being a national security adviser is a far more important job than being a cabinet secretary. so mr. ambassador, thank you so much for being with us. >> glad to be with you. >> i want toto talk to you abou belarus and nato but before i do that, something that happened in the news yesterday and i want you from all of your experience dealing with russia give us -- give our viewers an overview of what was happening. it was so interesting i was reading a rand study about russian propaganda and the fire hose ofda falsehoods on cue, 30

minutes later, sergei lavrov talks about siding with the one sixth insurrectionists and he was saying, oh, human rights violations, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. and it reminded me of whey heard admiral molen say, the russians will look for any crack. they will look for any divide and exploit it. can you explain that theory and can you explain what we see when we see d russians getting involved insi something like th? >> well, i think this is a long standing russian strategy, goes back to cold war days. they see democracy as having inherent weaknesses and certainly try to exploit them. they try to dominate through propaganda, disinformation, communications and adversary countries. remember back in the '30s and '40s they tried to take over the movie industry in the united states because of the influence of hollywood.

sergei lavrov, i've known for over 30 years is a past master of it. they do this out of habit. sadly, though, it has proven effective in recent years. >> so, could you talk about belarus?ou it's so interesting because we heard about new sanctions, that's what we always do reflexively. i certainly understand it. it's not like we can go to war over belarus, but at the same time, b there seems -- there ha to be more. there has to be more. >> a clear message that perhaps this journalist needs to be released. >> and when you start talking about air piracy, elise and i were saying over the past several years we're afraid to expand nato because we don't want to be confrontational, that's gotten us nothing but an invasion in georgia 2008 and ukraine in 2014. so what do we do? >> i think we have to have a strategy. i don't think youve can react o checkers move at a time when somebody like lukashenko kidnaps somebody in their air space.

the problem we have is that the east ward expansion of nato in effect was never completed. we left a gray zone between nato's eastern border and russia's western border. belarus,r. ukraine, moldova aren one part of it. azerbaijan, armenia, georgia are in another part. thiser guarantees instability. it guarantees russian adventurism in that gray zone and i think you have to remember what putin said back in fwooif, his view is that the collapse of the soviet union was the greatestni geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century. he wants to fix that. that's not in our interest to let him do that. >> we celebrated the orange revolution in 2004. that ended fairly quickly with russianth interference. so, if we want to expand nato, what's the first, second country that you would suggest to

president biden would be good for us to move on? just again not only to send a message to vladimir putin in russia but also just to try to offer more protection for some countries that may be invaded? >> right.>> let's leave the caucuses countries aside and just look at eastern europe. the quickest and easiest is moldova where there are russian military forces still in the republic so-called in ukraine's rear. we look at the conflict in eastern ukraine and obviously are concerned about it. but these russian forces to ukraine's rear can be a problem, too. i think moldova is the quickest and the easiest, but i think belarus is critical. if youla look at a map, it bords on latvia, lithuania and poland and three nato countries in ukraine's ounorth. if it is annexed, those belorussian countries in ukraine are strategically in danger. this is the one country of all that putin wants to bring back

into mother w russia. so we need to react in a way that doesn't tip lukashenko even further into putin's arms. that's a very difficult, strategic problem. i just don't think the administration has thought it through. >> ambassador bolton, willie geist. good to see you. >> what's the strategy? you agree that sanctions are largely symbolic. what is that next step? what can be done to push putin back? >> well, i think there are a range of things. i think president biden has a chance at the summit on june 16th to make that point. the first thing i would say to the russians is that their desire to basically extend the new start strategic arms control agreement isn't goingon anywher. i think this is something -- this agreement when it was made in 2010, was inadequate for

america's purposes then. junking it around looking over wouldlo be a way to put pressur on it. successt. of administrations ha failed to make what i think is a relatively simple decision. in the case of belarus, this is a pressure point to back putin away. i think you've got to get lukashenko out of power. i would buy him off to put it bluntly but keep russia from coming in to give the people of ukraine a real chance to express what they want for the future of the country. >> why do i get the feeling, mike, thatfe lukashenko may actually be able to be bought off? it's all about leverage. some people you can't buy off. but for those that you can, try it. >> i don't know the guy, okay. but i don't know whether you could buy him off. i strongly suspect you could rent him for a who i will. ambassador bolton, less than two weeks away or two weeks away from the first meeting between

president biden and premier -- chairman putin. could you please, for us, define success and failure from that meeting. what would be success for the united states? what would be failure for the united states? >> well, i don't expect success as i say. the new start is the central strategic position between the two countries. biden's perspective is wrong. that's a mark of failure there. i think f what biden can do is try and explain what i certainly feel, which is that the trump administration, donald trump, personally, was an anomaly in american foreign policy. and that the united states is really quite united against russian interference in our election. the kinds of interference russia has engaged in through various forms of cyber warfare and countries in europe. and that we insist that this kind of behavior has to stop.as

putin has played a very weak ve hand, very well for a number of years. and that was true in the obama administration as well. i hope that biden changes that. i have to say, i'm not optimistic. >> ambassador bolton, i just want tor go back to something u said about lukashenko and getting him out of office. so, are you proposing as the ultimate strategy for dealing with turmoil in belarus, regime change? >> look, i think you have to takehi lukashenko out of the equation. i think his highest priority is to stay in power as an auto cat, but his second highest would be stay in powers as an autocrat effectively under russian control. i think that's a result very adverse for the united states and the west as a whole. so taking him out of the picture and i think whether he's just rented or bought off, i think that is a possibility if we have a coherent policy to make sure

that russia doesn't take advantage of it. >> so, mr. ambassador, just focussing on the one point you made about the trump administration being an anomaly, on the foreign stage, how long do you think it will take to sort of make sure that's true? because even say it may take several administrations really to show to the world what we are and what our values are and our strength in the world again. do you have any thoughts on that? >> i'm much more optimistic than bob on that. i think biden represents in effect a kind of return to normalcy from the center left of the democratic prarty, which in my view is wrong but represents something normal. what we done know about the biden foreign policy is what the effect of his party's left wing will have. we have seen a little bit

hostility of israel. but biden himself is a typical center left democratic ce president. we will have our debates in this country and very vigorous ones about what he's getting wrong. but normalcy can come back fairly quickly. >> ambassador bolton, jonathan lemire. a lot of white house aides said the timing of the putin summit is to deal with him head on early while china remains -- will be the defining relationship of this presidency as it was for the finalnc month of the trump i administration. what's your assessment right now as to where things are with china andth how this administration's early steps how you think that's going. >> well, i don't think so it's going well. i think unfortunately it's of a piece with a number of other problems they've encountered. i don't see a big picture strategy for china, which just to make it clear, i think is the existential threat to the united states for the rest of the century. i think biden's rhetoric is tougher than obama's was. i think obama had a very

acquiescent policy toward china. i think biden understands that doesn't work anymore given china's behavior on a whole range of fronts domestically and internationally, but ewe need to think whole of government approach how you'll deal with this chinese threat.hi you can talk about process issues and negotiation p and th and that all you want to. but fundamentally you have to havet answers of concretely wh you're going to do. i would say one thing that biden has done positively was the first virtual but in-person meeting of the heads of state of the new quad, japan, india, australia and the united states. this is theli beginning potentially of something very effective to deal with china. it's got a long way to go, but we need more thinking strategically at that level. and you giknow, biden spent a l of time in foreign policy, although as bob gates also once said he couldn't remember a single decision biden has gotten

right. we haven't seen biden's strategy yet and it's getting to be time. >> ambassador john bolton, thank youjo so much. we reallyu appreciate it. great having you on. hope you come back. so it's interesting, elise, he talked about there's not been a strategy laid out yet in this administration. of course, former national security adviser. i remember another national security adviser saying the same thing before he passed, saying this century we have yet to have a president that has had a grand, sweeping, overall strategy like the cold war presidents always hade to have. that it was more sort of stop, start. and i think that is -- i think it's obviously going to hear that from ambassador bolton watching the show and not like that but that has been a criticism of what's gone on the past go21 years, president bide

obviously hasnt just gotten int office. you need actually some time to develop that. but that's been a real problem for this country. we have just sort of been adrift this entire century. >> well, and you look at his critique of what's happening in belarus. >> i said 20th century, i mean 21st. >> we're doing it piecemeal and that's what his administration did, the administration he worked for and others previously. so i wonder if we're hitting this mark of there joe biden's first six months or so in office when he is going to unveil a formal national security strategy as most presidents, of course, donald trump not included do. and donald trump actually i think released something but we all know how that went. but it will be interesting to see if he tries to merge his practical knowledge of foreign policy and its implementation and the politics of foreign policy with strategic thought

which he does have the capacity to do given some of the staffers who are working for him at the national security council. >> i think there's a couple things that came out of that, willie, that i was actually -- i agreed with and found hopeful. one was that he thinks joe biden has already sent a message to russia that the trump years were an anomaly and that americans are united against russian aggression. i think that's -- i agree with that ch my think that's positive. second thing was that he's more this is where mika and i disagree pretty significantly, i think this administration can send adm message to the world tt there's a return to normalcy. that we're going to call out tyrants, that we're going to promote democracy, we're going to promote freedom across the

globe. i know bob gates who we have extraordinary with respect for think itha will be a couple presidents. i think joe biden and congress and republicans who by the way kept t a very strong line again putin in congress while donald trumpgr was just saying some remarkablyin frightening things >> almost everything joe biden has done in the first few months has been to show, to project a to level, domestically and in terms of foreign policy. remember in march, early march, he called vladimir putin a killer. he didn't do that without thinking ability. he was asked about it. yeah, i think a he's a killer. you know why i say that because he is. we have the evidencehe to show that. jonathan lemire asked the formem president to make a simple declaration and donald trump passed onn that chance. so yes, o in terms of russia bu more broadly, joe biden is doing

everything he can to say this io who america has been and this is who america is again. >> mike, let me ask you the question you asked ambassador bolton, whatou is success for j biden at this submit with vladimir putin. >> first of all success is the fact that they're going to have the summit the two men are going to meet together. because joe biden, unlike past presidents, at least the past two presidents, past three actually when you think about it, hely knows vladimir putin. he has dealt with vladimir putin before. he looked him in the eye before. he had tough talks with him before. >> said he was soulless. >> putin said i'm glad we understandd each other. >> that at least is a basis to start. >> whatba the president once sa when he said that to putin, putin said, you do know me. >> yeah. we understand each other. >> and again, to willie's point, when he goes to brussels, when he's in great britain, they're going to know he's the president of the united stateshe who has legitimate foundation of foreign

policy. an in-depth knowledge of their potential future. he hase all of that in spades much more so than the past two presidents have had. >> by the way, very interesting, every time sergei lavrov's name comes up, a smile comes across the face of like john bolton, dr. brzezinski, a smile would come.ze he's a tough one. they're big personalities on opposite sides obviously dr. brzezinski and john bolton cold war errors. but they dealt with this guy. he's a tough one. >> you talk to john kerry about lavrov and it's almost as if he'snd talking about a member o the opposition party in the senate. they have a relationship. and he's pretty cute. he's got a lot of tricks up his sleeve. you have to watch him all the time. but he's been there for 33 years. >> he'ser on the international stage. you talk to most diplomats he does more with less than about

anything. jonathan lemire, you were in helsinki. you asked vladimir putin the question. you're going to geneva. do you think when you raise your hand will he answer your question or will he throw a shoe at youe like bush had a couple shoes thrown at him? >> i'm not going to accept any russian tea while in geneva. i will be traveling with the president when he makes his first overseas in a couple weeks. they're broadcasting he'll talk tough with putin, deliver that warning to knock off, knock off the interference that donald trump never did and refused to do when i asked him in helsinki, but the message will also be not just towi putin, messaging heres so important to the other countries where he will be visiting ons that trip. it's about sending a signal to his european allies that the u.s. is back and count on us again and be reliable partners again and we havebl your back wn itd comes to russia as we're seeing this aggression, we're

seeing them try to encroach west and messing in other european countries affairs that biden will deliver a message to our allies in europe that, hey, we're reliable partner again. and we're going to stand up to whatever putin tries to do. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe" thed leading democrats vying t become new york city's next mayor will hit the debate stage tonight. one ofe those candidates, katherine garcia, will be our guest. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.rc ht back. before nexium 24hr, anna could only imagine a comfortable night's sleep without frequent heartburn waking her up. now, that dream... . ...is her reality. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts, for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn? lately, it's been hard to think about the future.

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thank you. okay, we've been talking about it for weeks now. and the moment is here. women over the age of 50 are having their moment and their day for recognition is finally here. the inaugural forbes 50 over 50 list is out now. celebrating women who have achieved notable success after the age of 50, well after. here is a look at the inaugural class of entrepreneurs, leaders and creators who make up the list. ♪♪ gayle becker helped create an entire category of food as the founder of collie power. keeps us fed and so well. >> secret for professional looking muffins. ice cream scoop. >> driving nearly $200 million

in revenue and gives us flawless faces. >> this is the original pink iconic beauty blender. >> without shonda rhimes, there would be no mcdreamy. >> but now all i can say is that i'm in love with you. >> the duke. >> man much enjoyed flirting. >> biggest production houses in all of hollywood. without katherine o'hare rarks there would be no moira rose. >> what do all these women have in common, they are all on the inaugural forbes 50 over 50 list. >> being high energy, great health, over 50 without all of the things that happen when you're younger is amazing. i think it's an amazing time. >> women who achieved their greatest success well after the age of 50. it is a powerful message for young women, pace yourself. you can plan. and find success or power or

whatever well over 50, 60, 70 and 80. that's right. forbes 50 over 50 is taking on age with a fury. the first female speaker of the house, nancy pelosi, is 81. >> what's the word that comes to mind when i say retirement. >> what's that? >> at 56 years old, vice president kamala harris has a recipe for success. >> i eat no for breakfast. >> the list sees women over 50 sh, creating, innovating, spreading democracy, saving lives and making and moving lots of money. in business, mary barra at 59 runs gm. 58-year-old roz brewer runs walgreen's the only black woman running an s&p 500 company. at 53, jane frazier is the ceo of citi group, the first woman to run a wall street bank.

and at 64, carol tomey the ceo of ups. science, jennifer won the nobel prize in chemistry for ushering the era of gene editing. there would be no covid vaccine. she and her colleague created the patent. and dr. laura's career delivering babies ended so she went way bigger. at 62 years old, her company sends solar-powered medical suitcases to struggling countries so babies can be delivered safely. >> loved actually delivering babies. i loved working with patients one on one. but now i know i'm touching literally millions of lives. >> in sports, kim ing is the first woman to run an mlb team. she's 52. >> to be rejected that many times is tough on anybody's ego. but i think at the end of the

day, it's really hard to lose hope in your dreams and you just have to keep pushing on. >> and that same drive moved congresswoman maria salazar at 59 to beat all the odds, winning her seat in florida defeating a incumbent with national name recognition. >> i'm cuban american, the daughter of political refugees, you never, never, never give up. >> forbes 50 over 50 sending a clear message to women of all ages. the runway for your life and career is longer than ever before. investor tracy chadwell says younger women should take notes. >> my message to women that are 20 and 30 years old and because i do a lot of investing in longevity and technology for the ageing is you're going to live to be 150 years old. so, enjoy yourself, relax, take time. look around you. be mindful.

and things will unfold. >> wow. here now to explain this one of a kind list, the first of many, is maggie mcgrath, editor of forbes women. and maggie, i am so excited and proud of this and working with you has been just a joy. but you -- she's like a scientist with all her charts and graphs. it was not sort of a popularity contest. this was based on sort of facts and benchmarks that you put together at forbes. before you tell me how you did it, how was the response when you first -- when forbes first put out they're going to do a list like this, what was it like? >> first i want to say it's been a delight to work with you and your team. you've been so helpful through this process as you know has been many months. there was an outpouring of nominations. you've been saying 10,000 nominations every week. i don't think we expected that. we have 30 under 30 that does 10,000 nominations or more, but

it's in its tenth year. this is the first year we've ever done that. >> wow. that's amazing. how did you do it? how did you choose because what we did find in 10,000 nominations, that there were so many incredible -- almost seemed like every woman who either submitted her own nomination, which i'm proud to say women did for themselves, but a lot of people were nominated by other women and they all could have been on the list. how did you choose? >> so we had a team of screeners go through the first 10,000. we determined 2,500 semifinalists. we sent them a very long questionnaire and they answered all those questions. and from that, another team of screeners determined 300. those 300 went to our judges, diane von fursenberg and of course many conversations with you and the forbes team has produced this list. >> so you want to hear something funny. >> uh-huh. >> you know how women -- i'm always talking about my age. joe is like, don't do that. years ago he used to say that to me. >> i never said that to her.

>> southern mother. >> come on. >> but he realized that i'm -- but a lot of women don't like to talk about their age. although in this, elise, we had women submitting nominations who lied up to get in. isn't that fun? >> that's awesome. and i am just personally inspired by this. and i can't believe that it's even in 2021 it needs to be a thing that women over 50, but you look at how women's career choices have been so compressed and impacted. and just having how i waited myself only had a baby seven months ago at age 39 and felt the pressure of career. and so how can -- what has this taught you about what we can do as technology advances and we're able to reproduce later in life, what should we be doing career wise to keep going? >> it's taught me to tell you to calm down. the runway is so long that life

can interrupt your career and it's not going to be over. i got fired when i was 39. i literally thought it was over. i'm 54. i'm sitting here. and we have women we're about to talk about who are in their 60s and 70s on this list and in their 80s and legitimately having massive impact, the most they've had in their lives really cresting well after 50. >> and willie, i'm going to correct mika, i never said don't do -- what i did say to mika the beginning of this, you know, my career is over. i'm 40. and so, they're only going to let me do this a year or two, you better find another co-host. i said you're going to be here for as long as the show is here. and sure enough. >> yeah. >> mika is like, this is my last contract. this is my last contract. they're never going to hire me again. i'm too old. time and time again she fought through it. and so let me ask you about a couple people on this list. first of all, let's talk about

madeline albright for one second. you have madeline albright and liz cheney on there, two people from different parties. but madeline albright, the first female secretary of state. >> in her 50s. >> when she was in her 50s. >> but right now still working to spread democracy around the world. she's working full time. this is incredible. we know what liz cheney, you know, well after the age of 50 is still looking, i think, with very high sights into the future and has found a place for republicans who are not trump republicans to go. also on this list, 52-year-old ie' sha evans. >> she has such a wonderful story. to your point about having children, she talked to me about when she was pregnant with her second child, she thought, oh my god, i can't keep working. people -- she worked at intel for over a decade. and in 2019, at the age of 50, she became the ceo of autonomous taxi startup zeus. it was a big risk. having a one on one with

yourself to know yourself and to know to take a leap. and she's leading in really exciting sector. >> risks help. kathy wood is 65, the founder and ceo of arc invest. >> she is one of our covers. i think you have that cover at this moment. >> fantastic. >> kathy wood worked for investment firms, other people's investment firms for most of her career but in 2014, at the age of 58 she started arc invest. >> 58? >> 58. it has $29 billion in assets. one of the fastest growing financial firms in the world and she is known for her really gutsy bets. >> so we have 62-year-old nandita, ceo of bank of the west on the list. also 65-year-old mar la ginsburg. these women are kicking butt well into their 60s and no plans on stopping. tell us about her. >> what i love about both nandit and marla, they survived the

2008 recession. marla lost her investments. marla bought a sewing machine in 2009. started a clothing company. it now does $60 million in sales. >> my gosh. >> tremendously popular on hsn and iowa caucus. >> that was a really good qvc. >> that was a really good sewing machine. >> absolutely. another cover, julia wainwright. >> i have that line. >> she is 64. >> i want to hold that up. she is 64-year-old, ceo of pets.com. she was called the dumbest person in silicon valley. recruiters told her i can't show you to anyone. she said i'm not going to be able to get my dream job from anyone else. i'm going to have to create it. she founded the real real, luxury online consignment shop and is worth more than $1 billion today. >> pets.com, that was tough. >> my friends kept saying short

the stock. trust me. just like eastern airlines. stay with us. we won't let you down. >> better-known figures in here, ina garten was on the list. katherine o'hara, schitt's creek, one of the funniest shows ever made, the clear star of that show. a whole new generation of people fell in love with her through that show. >> she has a renaissance over the age of not just 50, but over the age of 60. comedy career when she was starting out, on "home alone." not like she didn't have a career before but has launched into a new ether with schitt's creek. >> can we talk for a minute about how much things have changed? i said over 50 years, it's really, elise, over the last ten years. it used to be you could go to any corporation, they would have a board, and there would be one

woman there, right? and everybody had to fight to be that one woman. and things have changed so radically over the past ten years. not just in the u.s., but you look in europe. women are obviously running just about everything in europe. you look here and it's really -- it's a revolution over the past decade. women, like these on the list. >> willingness just to give women a seat at the table and talking about katherine o'hara, i was thinking about sunset boulevard and the contrast between the lead actress and that, watching that old movie earlier in the year. she was in her mid 40s. she was so upset that her career in hollywood was over. and that was so much of a consensus for so long that women didn't have their professional careers either peaked early and they were done. but these women are all examples of how there's more to look forward to, just like we had two presidential candidates who were

older men, we can have older women running for those offices, too. >> absolutely. they are breaking age and gender stereotypes. and it's such an important message. >> if you look at every woman on this list, given the history, given how much things have changed so quickly, every woman on this list is a trailblazer. you look at nancy pelosi, and the fact that she -- you asked her, in her 40s, what did she think she was going to do. >> she said i knew i was going to do something. at 47, she goes into politics. and she's speaker of the house twice. she's impeached a president. i asked her what her -- we'll have the full interview tomorrow, talking about her greatest accomplishments in life. that interview was an absolute joy. it was so inspirational. i walked out of there thinking i've got so much to do. i've got a lot of time but i've got a lot to do. i think this runway for younger

women, this long runway has been cemented by the amazing women on this list. and you're right. when i was 40, did you say -- i remember know your value didn't even exist and you said to me you're going to have a whole brand because you helped so many women that's going to be about helping women. and we've now really hit all age groups, because we started with know your value, addressing the issues that young women face and negotiating, and now we're looking at the power that women bring to the table well over 50, 60 and 70. and i, as we move forward, would like you to tell us -- we have more coming. we had so many submissions we have other lists coming out in the next few months. >> we do. the story does not end here. today is the first day. we're so excited to bring you this package. in july, we will be launching a list of women over 50 who are making an impact in politics, education and law. look for our visionaries list in stem and humanities and in

september will be the investment list looking at financial rain makers at the age of 50. we didn't want to end here. >> forbes maggie mcgrath, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> as we mentioned tomorrow on "morning joe," my sitdown with the speaker of the house, nancy pelosi. you don't want to miss it. it's fantastic. still ahead, another woman over 50, breaking barriers, candidate for mayor of new york city, kathryn garcia joins us. how new york city went from the one-time epicenter of the pandemic to recording zero deaths. the huge milestone. this is the most important question. i hope everyone is listening. if you're watching "morning joe," is it joe, willie or mika? >> it's mika! >> of course. >> of course

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♪ welcome back your dreams were your ticket back ♪ >> that's a wonderful, wonderful tribute. willie geist -- >> you recognize the song. >> it's been a week since you've been in the studio? >> it's been a long -- >> there's our apartment, zooming to the top of that. we hunkered down the entire -- we've been in the city the entire time. this is the first time the new york daily news. >> all the papers. you've got your j.lo, affleck, knicks, nets. yankees win in extras last

night. >> welcome back is the song. >> welcome back. jonathan lemier, welcome back. >> thank you. i was just here, right over there. >> i know you were. rev, you were in tulsa yesterday. >> i was in tulsa. it was a very historic day. first time the president of the united states ever went to tulsa for recognition of the massacre. and i thought president biden made a very, very stark address, said things i never heard a president say. and i met three of the known survivors. and he laid out an important plan. and i rushed back last night for the historic descending of joe scarborough from the studio on high up here. we knew you were up there. >> told the president i was up there. >> i told the president you were descending to analyze his speech. and i'm sure he's watching with bated breath, as he were when you came down. >> descended for three days.

so can i ask you this? we talked a lot about it yesterday. extraordinarily moving, what's been going on in tulsa, the recognition for really the first time in this country's history. real recognition. but i am curious about one thing. when i was growing up, i think it was dannon yogurt that said there were parts in russia where people lived to be like 120 years old, so eat yogurt, you'll live longer. i ate yogurt until i was 11 and found out that wasn't the case. then i heard in japan, japanese live a long time. i started eating sushi. i've got to ask a question. what do they do in tulsa, oklahoma? the president met with someone who was 107, 106. >> three survivors over 100. >> and the male survivor grabbed my hand and said i watch your show all the time and started

lecturing me about what was going on. but i think what drove them, in talking to them in all sincerity was they wanted to get their story out. sometimes purpose can extend your life. >> that's the secret right there. >> what they saw, this viciousness, this murder, their loved ones being assaulted and killed because of the color of their skin. i think that drove them to keep living until they finally sat there and watched the president of the united states yesterday tell their stories. >> validating. >> how amazing, at that age, going through so much and seeing so much that yesterday at 107, 104, 102, they actually see a president say what they've been waiting 100 years to hear a president say. >> they finally had their story told. it took all these years, 100 years to have their story told. the president said things not only no president has said but

no public figure has said in terms of describing that day in graphic detail. here is what happened. you need to understand, america, what happened on those couple of days, how awful it is and how whitewashed it has been for 100 years. for a lot of people in this country, the education about the tulsa race massacre began yesterday and as rev said it was very important for the united states to be there. >> here is the president yesterday in tulsa. take a listen. >> for much too long, the history of what took place here was told in silence, cloaked in darkness. but just because history is silent, it doesn't mean that it did not take place. my fellow americans, this was not a riot. this was a massacre. [ applause ] we must address what remains a stain on the soul of america. what happened in greenwood was an act of hate and domestic

terrorism with the through-line that exists today still. >> rev, that was a significant moment when he said this was not a riot. it was a massacre. for 90, 95 years, it was called the tulsa race riot as if it were a bunch of hooligans running around, breaking storefronts. in fact, they were murdering people. talking about an elderly couple shot while they prayed. these very specific stories about what happened that day are important to embed it in the minds of americans. >> he gave it in graphic detail, and he defined it by saying it wasn't a riot, but a massacre. it was to define it as president. and i think three things. one, he backed it up with substance. he said we're going to put mon nye small businesses. we're going to deal with the white to black family wealth gap. and he's talked about how the infrastructure bill will deal with things. second thing that was important was that he is not one of the,

quote, liberal or radicals. he is what i -- he is not a latte liberal. he's one of these regular, blue collar, small state guys. >> yep. >> saying this. and i think that was more effective to the country than if it had been a more progressive branded type of politician. and third, you know, i talked to him for a while after cedric richmond brought me over and we talked one on one for a while. i think he is sincere. he has grown to understand the pain that a lot of us have been saying and people looked at us like we're angry rather than we're anguished about what we've had to experience in life. and i think he's really began to get it. >> very moving ceremony. speaking, by the way, of latte liberal, we have jonathan lemier here. >> wow! shots fired early. >> coffee shots. >> deliver his lattes from being up in the tower. >> we just knew.

>> when you're here at 5:00 a.m., you need as many lattes as can you. >> skinniest jeans. the circulation goes up in brooklyn. >> i look pretty good. >> he's a hipster. joe biden, couple of things, first of all, talk about why yesterday was so important for him, why he felt like he needed to go out there. secondly, how does he deliver on the promises that are made when you have such a dysfunctional congress? >> right. he said it was important to shine that presidential spotlight on what happened, to fill the silence was his phrase. that he knows this is something, a moment of history that was long forgotten or better said long suppressed and so many people did not know about what happened there and the suffering. he felt it was important to confront this, bring it to light in order to try to heal and move forward. tulsa is not the only one of these examples, rev, as you certainly know. but he announced initiatives there to try to close the racial gap in small businesses, home owning, not student loans, which

got him some gruff from the naacp. he tapped the vice president to steer that, as we see republican efforts to restrict the access to the ballot. joe, you're right, he faces a congress in which he has had trouble getting things done. he called out not by name but very clear, sinema and manchin, who say they vote more with republican than democrats. we need their help. last-ditch effort on infrastructure, then democrats are going to go it alone working toward the big voting rights. >> you teed it all up for us. >> through go. >> calling out moderate senators joe manchin and kyrsten sinema. while he didn't mention them by name, here is what he said when he talked about congress not passing more of his agenda. >> june should be more of an action on capitol hill. i hear all the folks on tv saying why didn't biden get this

done? biden only has a majority of effectively four votes in the house and a tie in the senate with two members of the senate who vote more with my republican friends. but we're not giving up. >> senators manchin and sinema have both opposed eliminating the filibuster, both have voted with president biden 100% of the time, according to 538. higher rating than -- >> that's pretty good. >> -- bernie sanders and elizabeth warren to give you more context. >> was he attacking bernie and elizabeth? >> there you go. possible. >> it's got to be really frustrating at this point because, you know, willie, you take the commission, the january 6th commission. that's kind of low-hanging fruit. >> yeah. >> for ten republicans to sign on to. to sign on to at any point in this country's history, at least in our lifetimes.

but not now because they don't want people to hear the truth about donald trump. and infrastructure. you know, trying to explain to somebody yesterday, that was the one bill when small group of us were constantly pushing to cut spending, cut spending, cut spending, we actually did pretty well. you get to transportation and everybody would roll over you, because they all wanted a bridge in their district. they all wanted whatever, money for whatever infrastructure project they wanted. and so infrastructure should be easy. that's the one thing republicans and democrats always come together with. if they can't get ten republicans on an infrastructure bill, it's just not going to happen. >> they're not going to get ten republicans on the infrastructure bill as they propose it. not some of the other stuff that

they think is extraneous. joe biden calling out joe manchin. he said you can keep asking me about the filibuster but i'm not going to change my answer. we need to keep the filibuster. joe biden and progressive democrats are trying to put downward pressure on manchin and sinema, saying blow through the filibuster and joe manchin has said i'm not doing it. >> speaking of the balance of power on capitol hill, democrats just scored a big victory in the fight for control of congress. what that means for the mid terms and beyond. "morning joe" is back in a moment. beyond "morning joe" is back in a moment you booked a spacious vrbo summer home, with a pool big enough for the most epic cannon balls. but the thing they'll remember forever? the first of many vacations with their nephew. the time for getting back together is now. find it on vrbo.

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welcome back to "morning joe." democrats are hold on to the house seat vacated by interior secretary deb haaland.

melanie stansbury easily defeated her closest challenger, republican mark morris in yesterday's special election to represent new mexico's first congressional district. stansbury campaigned on the biden agenda and captured 60% of the vote. her win shores up the narrow democratic house majority heading into the midterms. >> jonathan, this was a must-win for democrats. republicans were thinking if they won this thing it would be a sign that there was going to be bleeding in 2022 for the democratic party. but they held on and held pretty comfortably. >> they did. and a candidate who aligned herself with joe biden's agenda, light blue state. it would have been an incredible warning sign for democrats were they to lose that. the party that does not have the white house tends to pick up seats in the off-year elections. gop feels confident in 2022, particularly in the house. had they picked this off early, that would have been a great sign for them.

the democratic margin is so narrow. we keep talking about the 50/50 tie in the senate. democrats have a handful of seats in the house. that's a victory that they won, democrats were confident they would get it. they did. they feel confident about it. now they have to play defense for all the seats in '22. >> going back to the filibuster it's a question i get more often than not. rank and file americans, i've never heard of them come up to me and talk about procedure. people that watch this show, cable news, people that like are really focused on politics, maybe they know about filibuster, but for 90% of americans, do they even care about the filibuster? people go, joe manchin is getting all these political points in west virginia for pushing back on the filibuster. >> i think that the average american doesn't understand, does not have knowledge. there's not been a national

campaign to the public about the filibuster. this has all been inside beltway politics. but it does impact a lot. and i think that we're going to see between infrastructure and the george floyd bill and the voting bill a real reckoning of how we deal with this. mark muriel, president of the urban league, and i traveled together yesterday. he has arranged for some of us to meet with manchin to talk about these bills. there will be attempts to deal with this one way or another because there are real lives that are impacted. the president, by calling them out yesterday, puts pressure from the top. the question is whether something starts brewing from the bottom. but i think until that happens, you're right, the average person just feels that congress is either getting things done or not getting things done. they have no idea what a filibuster is. >> and that's a problem. i understand -- i'm sort of an institutionalist. i wouldn't want the filibuster to be gone. i like tradition.

and in the senate i don't want things to move really quickly. i said last year, yeah, you can change the number of supreme court, because everybody would say it's unconstitutional. can you move it to 12. you can move it to 20. i don't want that to happen but constitutionally, it can be done. in the case of the filibuster, willie, it seems to me that we have a choice. i mean, we can either have the senate institution, some of these procedures that have been in place for quite some time protected or we can actually have a branch of government protected, which really can't get anything done. you look at the last six years of barack obama's presidency. next to nothing got done, because republicans wouldn't pass anything. please, somebody tell me the biggest -- what landmark bill did barack obama pass the last six years? nothing, because they shut him

down. trump had his tax cuts. that's about it. that's about it. this senate doesn't work. congress doesn't work. it doesn't pass big legislation anymore. americans don't have a choice. that's why republicans win one year, democrats win two years later, republicans win two years later, democrats win two years -- at some point, give the american people a choice. if democrats want to go big, much bigger than i would want to go, but if they want to go big, then go big. and give americans that very clear choice. which you can't get when nothing ever gets passed. >> that's exactly the argument made by democrats in the senate, progressives who said look, the choice is we can preserve this institution called the filibuster or we can get better on voting rights or we can have a january 6th commission or we can do -- the list goes on and on and on. for people saying, jonathan, we can sit here, have this gridlock, wring our hands and

try to convince joe manchin to go one way or another, but we're not getting anything done. are they willing to strip away an institution, filibuster, to get through their big agenda? joe biden -- excuse me, joe manchin so far has said no. >> other democrats have been less public about it, but also don't want the filibuster to go away. some momentum according to some senate aides that there may be a reform to the talking filibuster that would make it more painful, harder to use. this goes to the overall argument that president biden is trying to make to these moderate senators, saying we're doing everything we can, on things that should be layups like infrastructure that always has bipartisan energy and support. it's a good faith effort. but also sending a signal. we reached out our hand. if they won't take it on this, then they're certainly not going to take it on anything else. >> what is the republican response when a democrat will say, wait a second. mitch mcconnell made the

exception to supreme court justices, just made that out of an old cloth. that was a tradition. harry reid breached filibuster for having a carve out for federal judges. i thought that was a mistake. i didn't think he should have done it. i said it at the time. but they made those exceptions. why can't democrats make an exception for voting rights? january 6th commission? this isn't your run-of-the-mill legislation. if you can make an exception for supreme court justices, one of the most important things that you do, you can't make an exception for a january 6th commission? that's just stupid. that doesn't make any sense at all. >> lifetime appointments to the supreme court, of course. there had been some thought early on when senator joe manchin had defended voting rights, he spoke publicly. the white house aides telling me and others privately that might

be the one place he would be willing to go. maybe that's the issue on voting rights where he would be willing to reform or eliminate the filibuster. he has only dug in rhetorically since then. we'll get there. the voting rights isn't coming until the end of the summer. the president has sequenced these agenda items. that's going to be last. that's the whole ball game. that's the holy war that's coming. all the fights lead up to that. live pictures of midtown manhattan as new york city kicks off the summer of recovery. we'll talk about what's working and what isn't, next on "morning joe." isn't, next on "morning joe. boss baby is back. we're going to have to face creepy babies. don't look at me. jail yard babies. i like glue. and ninja babies! oh my gosh. oh my gosh!

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steve, the city, we came in yesterday. and parts seem to be a little more quiet than usual, but i'll tell you what, we got across most of the city and had that really nice, sweet, comforting sound of like honking horns and traffic jams. so it looks like new york is starting to come back. >> new york has really opened up. the restaurants are opened at full capacity. the restaurants are jammed. you can't get a reservation. people are out and about. metropolitan museum had 10,000 people waiting outside in the rain to try to get in on sunday. yeah, it's very much back. but with an asterisk. people are not back in their offices. and so offices are 10, 15, maybe 20% occupied at the moment, which means midtown during the business week is not what it was before. a lot of restaurants still closed for lunch, things like that. people are dying to get out, and they're getting out. >> why aren't the offices opened

again? >> well, this is much debated. is it because the people don't want to go back or because the employers are being more careful? it's a little bit of both. we've been reopened for several months now, have most of our people back three days a week. it's coming slowly. work is going to change. there will be more work from home relatively indefinitely. relatively indefinitely. >> rev, what are you feeling about the economy from what you see? >> it is certainly people are moving around more, but the fact that we lost so many small businesses -- >> that's it. >> -- which were jobs. the fact that you have a lot of homelessness that is very apparent. how do you shift those who were in shelters, put in motels, back to shelters? >> that's going to be a challenge for the next mayor. >> yeah. >> we talked about this. homeless have moved into vacant hotels. >> treatment.

>> some with real mental health challenges and now tourists are going to come back and the hotels are going to need to make money or they're going to lose their business. so, how is the next mayor going to get the people that have ridden covid out in those hotels back out and treat them? >> and the challenge for people like me in civil rights is the way they are going to do it is they're going to use police, which is going to inevitably lead to some type of interaction that may be something less than what we want. but you can't ask motel owners to just give up their space and become a shelter, because that's not what they're in the business of. it's going to be those kind of management problems that we're going to see in the city on the ground, as well as a growing body of unemployed people because these small businesses are not coming back. >> speaking of the race for the mayor of new york city, we'll talk to one of the leading candidates, kathryn garcia. she joins us straight ahead on "morning joe." e joins us straign "morning joe."

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♪♪ >> what's that music, tj? >> it's so cool. >> it's not "welcome back kotter." >> no, we did that. >> it's nice to be back. it's been fun seeing everyone. just nice to be back in the studio. with less than three weeks to the new york city democratic primary for mayor, the top candidates will debate in person tonight. this face-off will be the first since a pix 11 emerson college poll showed former city sanitation commissioner kathryn garcia storming to the front of the pack. and she joins us now. great to have you on the show, in studio. we're all a little giddy. >> i'm not really good at this politics thing, but when someone says storming to the front. >> i'm worried about it. >> that's pretty good.

sounds like a softball question but a lot of people want to know, what happened? why did you catch the attention of everybody in such a way when this was such an ill-defined field at the beginning when you looked at the polls? >> i think it's a number of factors. first and foremost, "the new york times" endorsement, the daily news endorsement really started to generate some energy but we finally also got off zoom and ended up being in person. >> that will do it, right? >> that, i think, did make a difference. >> i was wondering how in the world, as a guy -- i got elected knocking on doors, planting yard signs. that's the only way i got elected. how do people campaign without being able to shake hands, you know, hug people, and just kind of get to know the person by looking at them and talking to them? >> that's why we've seen so many undecideds for so long in this race, because people really want you to knock on their door and

ask for their vote. they feel it's very important for you to be someone telling them what you're going to do for the city, how you're going to make it a more liveable city, how you're going to get kids back in school. >> so how are you going to do all of that? >> yes. >> you asked the next three questions. >> i asked the next three questions. this say moment when we are really facing serious challenges. we know that we need our economy reopened. we have to be supporting our culture, restaurants, and everything that makes us different than every other city in the entire nation, but that means kids have got to go back to school. that's why i'm going to move $130 million out of headquarters and into classrooms with teachers. we have to be safe on our streets. we need to be fighting gun violence, the rise in anti-asian hate crime and crime on our subways. people don't feel safe on our subways, they don't ride them, we can't make this work. that's why i believe we should

embed mental health professional s with our police officers to get that done. >> let's be more specific about that. as you know, quality of life issues are the number one issue in any poll you look at. the same poll that has you at the top of this group. in terms of police, there has been in movement over the last year. there's been talk of defunding the police. plain clothes unit of new york cops was taken off and sort of given new jobs, different jobs anyway. how do you look at policing? do you think we needless money given to police? or do you think we need more and distribute it more intelligently? >> we need efficient and effective policing. so i am not saying we take money away from pd. i believe that they can be guardians of their communities rather than warriors against them, which is why they should live in the city. they should be a little bit older. but you have to have zero tolerance. and i understand what that means, because i've run a uniform agency. i understand what discipline

means. that's tough but fair. >> what's behind, do you think, the rise in crimes, the things you talk about, attacks on asian americans? we had another vicious assault a couple of days ago in chinatown. the quality of life again that new yorkers are deeply concerned about. what's going on there? >> there are a lot of things going on here. one, it has been an incredibly traumatic year for everyone. we have not been having the services that we need for people who are suffering from serious mental illness on our streets, in our subways. that is why we need to be using the tools we have, like kendra's law, to make it sure that they are getting the support that they need. but you also have seen that we need people to get back to work. >> yeah. >> very hard to commit crimes if you're getting up early to go to work. >> when you say embed mental health professionals with police, what does that look like? domestic violence call comes in. the officers show up. do they have in their squad car with them a mental health

professional? >> they have with them a mental health professional. we want to make sure that that is the first line of defense, that they are de-escalating. but if things do not work out that there are police to back up those social workers or psychiatrists. >> you know, the problem that we face, obviously, there's a problem with the escalation of crime and gun violence. and then there's also the problem of dealing with policing and police abuse. >> uh-huh. >> and we are still dealing with whether police use excessive force and even worse as in eric gardner. how do you draw the line? i hear you say residency requirement, which certainly many of us agree. and older. how do you do that where you deal with the unions that you want to deal with residency requirement, where you live in the city, which they don't want, and how do you deal with putting the age gap higher and then having this balance where police

can deal with gun violence where they can be not abusive or murderous? >> you get what you measure when you are focused on the data and measure community involvement and you promote off community involvement, that changes the culture of an organization. and i'll tell you, i have worked with unions over my entire career with the city. that's why the sanitation workers association endorsed me, as did everyone else who has ever worked for me. i understand how to get to the table and make things happen. >> let me ask you this. we were talking about it in the segment before you came on. we have placed a lot of homeless in motels and other places during the pandemic that now has to transition out. and probably go back to shelters, many of them going

into the streets because the hotel/motel owners want to be able to rent to tourists. how do you do that? where many of the homeless are not going to bant want to go. you're going to have an interaction with police. how do you manage that? you're the one who says in this ratio, the managing. how do you manage the transition of thousands of people in a peaceful and i think flawless manner? i don't know if you can do it flawless. >> by the way, also balancing the property owners who desperately immediate to start making money again because they're a year behind on rent. >> so, this is where we have had a shelter first strategy rather than a housing first strategy. and that getting people who are homeless into a permanent home with supportive services so that they can deal with mental health or substance abuse issues is critical because the congregate shelters don't work for communities and they don't work for the people who are homeless

i talked to someone who was homeless or formerly homeless at this point and she said if you gave me 20 choices and i said no every time maybe you're offering the wrong thing. >> jonathan lemire is with us in the flash cam. >> i've been banished down the hall. >> by the way, he's a new york voter and a parent. and when you say get the kids back to school, he loves his kids. >> yeah. >> but that still is music to his ears. go ahead, jonathan. >> no objection there. i want to ask you about something else, though. as you well know, new york state, albany, has an incredible amount of power over new york city, and the relationship between governor cuomo and mayor deblasio, shall we say, strained. you, march 1st, after accusations of sexual harassment allegations against the governor, called for him to resign. one, do you still stand by that? and secondly, if he is still in

office and you're elected mayor, how do you work with him? >> by the way, jonathan works for the ap, but you can tell he's a "daily news" reporter at heart because when mayor deblasio is here, he is always asking why do you take an suv to work out? you can take the boy out of "the daily news." you can't take "the daily news" out of the boy. >> nobody ever lets go of their room nine experiences. >> right. >> i still have called on the governor to resign. i'm practical. he is disinclined to do what i had recommended. but i also know that i can work with people because that's the job. and it's not just about the governor. it is also about the senate and the assembly. we need to have a strategy, because i know that there is a lot of power in albany. and in order to get things done for the city you have to sit down and make the deal. >> very good. i like it. so, in terms of the pandemic and

bringing the city back, we're the first in town after a year away, and see a lot of shuttered businesses, a lot of women have suffered in a big way, having to leave work, and many have not been able to come back. what are your thoughts on, first of all, how the government has responded to this and how you specifically could help new yorkers get back on their feet because there are people -- we're talking about a comeback. bay lot of it is new people, people who have been somehow able to survive this. there are far too many people who are still suffering or have no way back sfwlt city has taken an enormous hit in covid, both in the number of people we lost, over 30,000 new yorkers who passed away, but we lost over 600,000 jobs in the city of new york. and so -- we still are over 500,000 people unemployed in the city. and women have taken some of the hardest hits. and that is why we need free

child care for people making less than $70,000. because child care is like infrastructure. you can't go to work if you can't get on a subway. you can't go to work -- >> how are you going to make that happen? >> that is about finding the money, which i have identified in my plans, to fund both new child care centers as well as our nonprofits, to make it so that you have a safe place for where you can have your kid all day. and they're ready for school. it makes it better all around, and is an investment worth making. but we also need to be supporting our small businesses. 50% of our private sector employment. they need zero interest loans. they need to have access to the public realm as well as having a one-city permit. it literally requires you to go to seven different agencies from buildings to the health department, to open a restaurant. that's the defense definition of

crazy. >> let me read this. we talk about the department head of sanitation. piles of trash we're seeing around that get higher and higher. criticism of you after a poll came out showing you in the lead. so, i'll ask you to respond to that. then i'll ask you the question a lot of people in the media are asking. does andrew yang have the experience it takes to be mayor of new york? >> i left the department when we took a $100 million budget cut and that had an immediate impact on the cleanliness of this city. i saw that, tried to raise the red flag. it didn't happen, and i left. i don't know what numbers he's looking at. the city was cleaner under my tenure than it had ever been. so i welcome a conversation about track records. >> does he have the experience required to be mayor of new york? >> andrew is a lovely guy, but this is a hard job and requires

you to really understand how government works, how labor unions work, how the budget works. you don't want anyone in there looking for the light switch. >> willie, that is -- andrew is a lovely guy is the new yorker's version of -- >> bless your heart. >> -- what we say in the south. bless his heart. >> he's a sweet man. i know you need to run but bail reform. new york police department basically says we have a catch and release program right now where we can't hold people because there's no cash bail and people are committing dozens and dozens, they're seeing the same people come back. should there be cash bail so some of these criminals can be held until their trials? >> there's catch and release if you have money. what i would say is judges need to have discretion so that they can make a determination. but i don't think that cash bail particularly for low-level misdemeanors is appropriate.

>> all right. kathryn garcia, thank you for coming in. seeing you face-to-face is wonderful, as is all of you. good luck. the organization headed by our next guest announced plans yesterday to sue the state of florida. we'll explain that next on "morning joe." l explain that nen "morning joe." centrum multigummies aren't just great tasting... they're power-packed vitamins... that help unleash your energy. loaded with b vitamins... ...and other key essential nutrients... ...it's a tasty way to conquer your day. try centrum multi gummies. now with a new look.

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it's just so ridiculous. we were just talking about it, rev, where we're going to be talking for candidates for mayor for new york city here, but you're right that we're not going to know, the voting is june 22nd and we won't know until july who won those primary contests. >> that's right. >> if this were going on in georgia or texas people would be going crazy. why is new york so backwards when it comes to voting rights? >> the archaic laws is to keep people confused. those in power stay in power and they're not going to start counting the ballots until july. >> why?

>> that's how you keep people in power in power. we'll be arguing about this all summer. why is nevada only counting three votes a day, but nevada's, like, really quick compared to new york. >> yeah. it's amazing. >> it's ridiculous. >> this is where donald trump learned politics. deal with illusions and delays. >> part of it, too, is it's the first time they've had choice. no one will get 50% and they reshuffle the deck. >> how can anyone -- >> they're not going to. so then they re-shuffle the deck. >> amy roker ran in 2020, and i think we'll find out if she wins. >> they go in a month and a half later and count three votes. >> it was one county. >> the president and human rights campaign alfonso david. it's great to have you on the set with us. we are giddy seeing everybody in person. it's so wonderful, but let's talk about a lawsuit, state of

florida. what's going on? >> yesterday governor desantis signed a bill into law that would ban transgender female athletes from participating in sports consistent with gender identity. you would ask why is he doing this? these doing this for political gain. all of the american medical association, american psychological association, they all oppose these bills not based on science and yet he's advancing this bill which is blatantly unlawful, arbitrary and based on bias so we're suing him and we're bringing him and the state of florida to court. >> okay. >> so let's talk what's exactly so people understand what is inside this bill, what does it do practically? how would it affect athletes in the state of florida? >> it's still confusing because they've changed the essential provisions of the law, but at its core it says if you are a

transgender female athlete you cannot participate in sports consistent with your gender identity. you may be required to show your birth certificate before you can participate. there is confusion about how this law is actually going to be enforced because there were enforcement provisions that were removed before the bill is actually signed and it goes to the court issue here which is desantis and anti-equality forces are in search of a problem that doesn't exist. so they're passing these bills in order to mobilize their base. we know this because the americans' principles project told "the new york times" in 2019 the bathroom bills no longer work. we have to target younger people in order to mobilize our base. younger, transgender people. when you shift from the bathroom ads to the wrestler ads we mobilize our base. >> let me -- two points. what would be the basis of the lawsuit is discrimination or

civil rights and secondly, enforcement. what are they saying are the ways they're going to enforce it? are they going to inspect people? how do you enforce something like this? >> let's deal with the enforcement question first and that's part of the confusion. are you going to say to a transgender athlete, prove to me that you are a boy or a girl and demonstrate that by showing me your birth certificate? is that the department of education, is that the school district? is that the attorney general's office and that is unclear and in terms of the basis for the lawsuit we'll be outlining that in the very near future, but yes, discrimination. i believe that these rules violate the federal law. the supreme court has already said that lgbtq people are protected under federal civil rights laws where they prohibit discrimination on the basis of sex, and our education law certainly does that.

>> so let me ask you, let's talk about pride month more generally. mika just had a segment earlier on 50 over 50. we talked about the extraordinary advances women have made over the past even ten years. i think in the beginning of this pride month two years ago in 2011 you had a very progressive, democratic president barack obama who ten years ago opposed same-sex marriage. as a christian, he said i believe marriage should be between a woman and a man and here we are ten years later and so much has changed. >> so much has changed. we are at a point in our culture where lgbtq people are finally recognized in a way that should have been. we have a white house that sees our dignity and respects us for who we are and we have joe biden and kamala harris. >> can we talk about joe biden -- >> it was joe biden who, by the way, just a little behind the scenes stuff, joe biden let it

out first that he thought the white house should move on marriage equality, and he was placed in the corner inside that white house. he paid for it politically for months. >> here he is now. >> and they were angry because he did that. joe biden, he pushed the obama administration along on this issue, didn't he? ? he did, and he redefined the political landscape and he changed the public discourse on lgbtq rights and he still did this today on day one when he came into office. president joe biden signed an executive order instructing federal agencies to uphold the supreme court decision and he's doing more work to make sure he advances lgbtq rights, but we still have more work to do. we have 250 bills introduced in state legislatures and we have to fight those. >> president of the human rights campaign, alfonso david, thank

you. we can't go over 9:00. tomorrow on "morning joe" my interview with house speaker nancy pelosi. it was an incredible interview. she is on the 50 over 50 list of forbes. go to forbes point com/50over50 to see the list just out this morning. that does it this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. ♪♪ ♪♪ hi there. it is 9:00 a.m. i'm stephanie ruhle live at msnbc headquarters. let's get smarter, president biden hours away from a massive meeting with the republicans' top negotiator on an infrastructure deal, but the biggest story may be his frustration with some of his fellow democrats appearing to blame them for blocking his plans. >> june should be