[ chanting: hang mike pence ] >> you know, president trump and i have spoken many times since we left office. and i don't know if we'll ever see eye-to-eye on that day, but i will always be proud of what we accomplished for the american people over the last four years. [ applause ] and i will not allow democrats or their allies in the media to use one tragic day to discredit the aspirations of millions of americans.

>> vice president mike pence not seeing eye-to-eye with the man who encouraged supporters to march on the capitol. >> you can send a politician to acting class to help improve their phony ivy league populist gruel or mike pence's -- still, after all of these years, still terrible ronald reagan imitation. willie, i just -- >> "one tragic day"? >> -- really think, willie, we'll get to the content in a minute, but that's not what we're about. we're not about substance. this is about style! and we've talked about, willie, some of the truly bad actors in american politics. of course, number one with a bullet after all of these years is ted cruz. just the worth populist thing. josh hawley. he's coming -- you know, counting down the top 40.

he's jumped from 36 to number 2. but mike pence, though -- >> my god! >> he's steadily hung at number seven or eight for the past five years. the worst ronald reagan imitation. and if we -- if we have to talk about substance, then you do have to say, yeah, we may have disagreed a little bit, maybe he stirred up the crowd and told them i was still there and attacked me in a tweet when he knew i was still there. when they were chanting "hang mike pence" and my children and wife and i had to rush down to the basement with secret service, because we were afraid we were all going to be killed. and he was still ginning up the crowd. but maybe we had -- maybe we saw things a little differently there. this does go into the ted cruz, where trump accuses ted cruz, right? >> yes. >> of having a father who killed

jfk. saying horrible things about his wife. and then kissing him up to him for the next five years. and then you have mike pence whose family's life was in danger. now he's talking about how gosh darned great he is. we've got a new one, debuting at number 38! george p. bush. terrible things said about his father, terrible things said about his mother. jeb was so shocked about it. and now george p. bush, doing the best, getting those little things you put around beer cans, koozies. and now he's snuggling up. seriously, if anybody needs a job that badly that they betray their family, really, the job's not worth it. the job's not worth it. their mom and dad, come on. >> let's not forget senator john

kennedy of louisiana. they should have jon voight, maybe james woods at the next cpac, give a little acting forum. inside the actor's studio. >> you mean john kennedy, the john kerry supporter? >> yes. >> and now he's like senator hokum from oxford? >> yes. >> to your larger point -- >> was i -- >> i think there was one in there. i heard one. >> he's going to crystallize things. >> to the larger point, of course we heard the "hang mike pence" chants on january 6th. there was a gallows built outside, perhaps symbolic, but the point was taken. and for him to kiss that off and say, we don't see eye to eye, we have a difference of opinion about what happened on january 6th. and immediately turn away to defending donald trump and attacking democrats -- >> and by the way -- >> it tells you everything what you need to know about where the

party is. in new hampshire. the central target of that mob wants to move on from the question of what happened on january 6th. >> "hang mike pence, hang mike pence." and yet, this is walter -- this guy is now defending donald trump. there are now parallels in american history. just none. >> it's a weird syndrome. and i'm glad you brought up my home state senator j john kenne. it's both a faux populism, an ivy league or oxford populism. and also this cravenness towards trump which is really going to come back and haunt people eventually. >> i -- look. by the way, walter isaacson is here, jonathan lemire at the table, alexi mccanon joins us this morning. so here again is what former vice president mike pence said last night to new hampshire's hillsborough county republicans

about the january 6th attack on the capitol. >> january 6th was a dark day isn't the history of the united states capitol. but thanks to the swift action of the capitol police and federal law enforcement, violence was quelled. the capitol was secured. and that same day, we reconvened the congress and did our duty under the constitution and the laws of united states. you know, president trump and i have spoken many times since we left office. of and i don't know if we'll ever see eye to eye on that day. but i will always be proud of what we accomplished for the american people over the last four years. [ applause ]

is and i will not allow democrats or their allies in the media to use one tragic day to discredit the aspirations of millions of americans. >> you know, it's like -- >> you know, jonathan lemire, sure. sure. donald trump knew that mike pence's life was in danger. and maybe he also knew that mike pence's children's life, that they were in dame as well and his wife was in danger. and maybe he knew that mike pence had been pulled away from the chamber and rushed downstairs with secret service. and maybe, just maybe he tweeted something after knowing that, that put their lives in greater

danger, but i will not sit here and watch people attack his backswing. it goes up slow, okay? and as it follows through, he does go, the weight is shifted from the right heel to the left, through the ball. i will not sit here and watch him be attacked. >> the only thing missing there was the vice president complimenting donald trump's broad shoulders, which was a staple of his remarks while in office. >> and the chants, they grip a golf club. >> the mike pence there seemingly seems to be underplaying what happened at the capitol there, talking about the violence was quelled and the capitol was secured, after hours -- >> and his family's life was in danger. this is not an opinion. this is a matter of fact. it's the timeline. and republicans will tell you

that as well as democrats that were there. his life was endangered. he was chased out. he had secret service rushing him and hiding his family. when donald trump found out about that, he then knowing pence was in danger, then tweeted something to stir up the crowds who were already chanting "hang mike pence." this wasn't a little misunderstanding. this isn't, you say potato, i say potato. this is about life and death and he wants to get elected to a position. he wants the approval of people so badly he just lets that slip by. >> and president trump, of course, was watching cable coverage of this. he was fully aware of what was going on. he was fielding calls from kevin mccarthy, asking him to call supporters, which he decline to do so immediately. we've seen the surveillance foot animal of mike pence and his family being rushed down a

hallway just seconds before some of the rioters reached there. his life was in danger, and yet he is choosing here to dismiss it and play up his relationship with donald trump to the day. mike pence had a heart procedure a few months ago and didn't tell donald trump ahead of time. trump learned about it through media calls. that was the reason for their first phone call. pence now saying they're speaking often. but it's clear the grip trump still has on the party -- >> who needs a job that bad? >> and even those who clearly have reason to break away from him refuse to stay. >> who needs a job that way? who needs the approval of any political party that badly? who? who? i don't want understand. >> apparently mike pence. >> and a lot of other republicans. >> i think what's important here, too, is this is all coming at a time when donald trump is getting back out there, soon to do these campaign-style rallies. corey lewandowski, his former campaign manager was doing an interview i think yesterday or early in the week when he said it was going to be early 2015 style. and that matters, because he'll

be dictating the message not just for the party around january 6th, but perpetuating this inherent culture war for the republican voters, which will kind of set the agenda for 2022. >> 2015 style, fantastic. so u.s. capitol police sergeant akalino akalino ganel is speaking out. here's part of what he told cnn. >> trump send me, we won't listen to you, we are here to take over the capitol, we are here to hang mike pence. they thought we were there for them. and we weren't. so they turned against us. strfrs scary. because i thought i was going to lose my life right there. i could hear my fellow officers

screaming, the agony in some of them. all i could think was, we can't let these people in. this is going to be a slaughter inside. it hurts me that the country that i love, that i came in, that i have sacrificed so much, don't care about us. they don't. >> firsthand account from a capitol police officer inside the building and echos of what we've heard from other officers, fearing for their own lives, thinking about their families, pleading for their lives while they were being beaten by some of those rioters. jim vandehei is with us. jim, so does any of this -- i guess a rhetorical question at this point -- change the calculus by any single republican about whether or not we ought to look back at what happened on january 6th? will they not even hear the testimony of a police officer who feared for his life? several police officer who is thought they were going to die that day. and not at least have pause

about doing something to review the events of that day? >> i have a hunch you know the answer to that, willie. and even though the conversation -- i know you're not surprised with what mike pence is doing. but even when we express any kind of surprise, it's a little off-base, right? because the republican party has spoken. like, they want to be like trump. they want to please trump. i think if anything, like, yes, trump is struggling mightily to be heard and he had to shut down his blog and no one is paying attention to him. but the people that do pay attention to him are anybody that wants to be elected. and talk to any republican or even increasingly democrats, they assume republicans could win back the house or will win back the house in 2022. trump is going to claim credit. it's going to be a lot of trumpian candidates. and now it's going to be institutionalized. every single person who's running, wants to run, could run, could win in the republican party is going to be a lot like donald trump. it's not going to be anything

like rob portman or mitt romney or paul ryan. that's gone. it's 5% of the party, at least in terms of people who run, get elected, increasingly fund the party. so what pence is doing and what every other republican is doing is not surprising. i think you'll see more of it and not less of it. and what's interesting is it's happening at the very time, trump really is having a hard time breaking through. he shut down that blog because no one was paying attention to it. we had a company run the data to figure out how many people were paying attention to his blog. and it was about as many people read the average story on "the tennessean," which is the newspaper of nashville. >> that's a pretty good paper. good for him. >> but he still has all of this power over pence. >> he has so much power over mike pence, over these -- over kevin mccarthy and alexi pointing out, they're going back to rallies.

and walter isaacson, how is it possible that we should cover this as republicans who intend to participate in a democracy at this point, when they're flying in the face of it, in the way they behave, in the way they're treating january 6th, in the way they're following this man, who is a mini, wannabe dictator. >> you see this happening around the world, but especially authoritarianism here, which is an anti-democracy type movement. you're talking about everybody running as a trumpist, jim. are there going to be some republicans who try to regain control of the party and run, not necessarily as anti-trump republicans, but as paul ryan-type republicans? >> a few in swing districts. but not at the national level. i had this conversation with three different people yesterday, who just pined the days of the republican party of old. and my point to them was, it's gone! it might return in five or ten

years. it's not returning in five months. there's no evidence of that. look at who gets attention to this day. it's tucker, it's ben shapiro, mike pence, it's donald trump. none of those figures have -- are getting the money, are getting the recognition, are getting the following. and those things are essential ingredients if you want to win in national politics. the party does not care fundamentally about deficits. i don't even know that the vast majority of what you would call the base of the party right now cares that much about ideology. it's much more an identity statement. a culture statement, that i would say has been more solidified post-election, more solidified. and almost no one saw that coming. everyone assumed january 6th was this watershed moment. should have been. it's insane. insane! historically insane what happened. and yet almost instantly, at a

moment where you would think was unthinkable, everyone snaps back like that, not just to the norm, but to the trump norm. it is institutionalized. it is a fantasy that is somehow going to return to the way it was. >> you know, back in the old days, when i was in congress, a cow could, like, get elected and move on to the house floor, if they voted right. if they were small government conservatives, then they would be accepted. i mean, it was -- it really didn't matter who was voting right ideologically. you know, jim, you were there covering it. i think for "roll call." all that mattered was ideology. that's all that mattered. you could have the greatest personality in the world, if you didn't vote the right way, you were a squish. you would be thrown out, you wouldn't survive the town hall meetings. and they say, do you stand for -- do you stand for a strong nato?

do you stand for a balanced budget? what are you going to do to get to a balanced budget? what will we do to take care of the entitlement crisis? that is literally all we talked about. they talked about hyatt, they talked about friedman, they talked about thatcher. they talked about reagan. they talked about buckley. they talked about russell kirk. they talked about edmond burke. that's what was going in the caucus meetings. nothing else -- as you know, you covered us. you know how crazy i was and how crazy the rest of us were. he's laughing because it's true. it's -- it's funny because it's true. it was all driven by ideas. everything was driven by ideas. now you ask the rank and file who were voting more this trump republican party. everything i just said is secondary.

they don't know, they don't care, they couldn't begin to tell you about hyatt. they couldn't begin to tell you the rank and file about friedman, about thatcher, about any of those things that flamed the republican party of old. >> and if anybody thinks we're nuts, and there are probably some people watching this that say, oh, you're wrong. not wrong! >> you are clarence sparrow. you just sold the argument. no, go ahead. >> adorable. >> -- liz cheney off the vote. if you're a betting person, you bet she loses her primary in wyoming. she was kicked out of leadership. cheney! liz cheney! she's the person that you guys are talking about, like, is there a market for that? the market has spoken, at least that small market that determines who has power in the

republican party, and they've said, no, we don't want liz cheney! for one reason! january 6th. she said it's a lie. and it was a lie. guess what happens? you can't be in leadership. a pretty sensible republican on these topics, changes her tune. why? it's the only way to have power right now. you just have to reckon with that reality and get out of this fantasy world that it's going to return to something that was, that will not be, at least for the foreseeable future. >> you may have to take his blood pressure. is he okay? >> it's true. it is crazy! and liz cheney, you're exactly right. what's going on? >> oh, she's not conservative. oh, really? liz cheney is not conservative? and that's what walter, mika, will tell you. you can come up to me in an airport and say, you were responsible for the start of world war ii. okay, great. how about the red sox? they looked pretty good last

night, right? but when somebody comes up to me and goes, i liked you when you were conservative, i just stop. >> and then he talks -- >> and i say, oh, really, where do you stand on deficits, on small government, on nato, where do you stand on pushing back -- and i would literally go through the same exact things that i said 20 years ago, and they would go, what? but you don't like donald. seriously, it's like arguing with -- i'm just -- you just fill in the blank. but actually, i feel so validated now, because we have liz cheney as an example, because when i was attacking george w. bush for big deficits, for big debts, for wilsonian foreign policy, they would say, oh, you're not conservative anymore. because i was attacking him from

the right. it is all tribal. it is all tribal. >> but this is dangerous. >> and it's happening -- >> yes. >> of course it's dangerous. >> do you think i think this is like saturday night at the drive-in. of course it's dangerous. >> i think the big picture we were saying, this is happening at the state legislature level too. so while jim was talking about all of these republicans in congress who are following this cult of personality of donald trump, republican state legislature are passing these bills that are very trumpian in places like pennsylvania, florida, georgia. and it's not just with more restrictive voting rights. it's across the board with school curriculum, as we're seeing among other things. the party is passing these trumpian laws, even though these folks aren't in congress. >> up and down, which actually, at the end of the day, and we've seen this. it's not that it matters jim vandehei, but we've seen this in the past, i don't know what year it was, maybe in 2010, new hampshire republicans took over the state legislature. i think it was 2010. they darted way right on a bunch

of ideological issues. they lost it two years later. the fact, what alexi said is true. the fact that a lot of the state legislatures are darting that way, in certain states, it's going to end up costing them. i mean, nobody will listen, but it will end up costing republicans, not just in d.c., but if they are nationalizing this on a state level, too, they're going to start losing all of those legislatures they picked up during the obama era. >>, but if you're a republican, you would say, well, that's what everybody's said in the media pre the election and everybody has outperformed in the house races and outperformed in the state level. and they had more power at the state level than not. and alexi is right, if you look at who got elected at the state level, the party chair, the infrastructure of the party is wholly trumpian. whatever it was is gone. it's wholly trumpian. that's why the party has fundamentally shifted and it's why the party has fundamentally

shifted even where it gets its money. corporate america when it takes a stand is almost always taking a stand that you would say is more liberal than conservative and you're seeing a lot of corporations stop giving money to people who voted a certain way on impeachment or voted a certain way post january 6th, which means republicans have to go get those small dollar donors that supported trump to support the party. there's a whole shift going on. all of these things, and the reasons i keep amplifying it, you've got look at the building blocks of what a party has. where it gets its money, attention, and activism. and all of that is in that trump-like category. so trump could leave tomorrow, whatever replaces him is something like trump. not something like reagan, not something like paul ryan, not something like joe scarborough that i covered in congress. it's just different. and now people just have to reckon with, that's what it is. it's that party, however you

want to describe it. it's the republican party, at least not small "c" conservative, the way we would have described it for the last 30 to 40 years, it's something different. and i don't even know what the ideology of it will be, because it's much more about identity and about clinging on to some of these social and identity fights right now than it is about policy. eventually, it will manifest itself in policy. >> as jim says, the money, the media, the energy is in burning a mask in an empty stairwell and writing "freedom" in your tweet. it's theatrical politics. and the formula is, say or do something outrageous. for example, the freshman congresswoman from georgia, wait for the outrage to set in, say i'm being silenced, i'm being attacked, send out fund-raising email, make money, and the sock cycle continues. it's about owning the libs as a philosophy for a party. >> on this part of the only --

my favorite is josh hawley who literal goes on every program, i will not be silenced! uh, you're on this network. goes on the next one, i will not be silenced! uh, you're on the "washington post." i will not be silenced! uh, you're on the mount of olive's talking -- this guy goes everywhere just to say, i will not be silenced! i will not be silenced! >> so -- >> how do you do that? >> the world has been very cruel to josh hawley. >> the poor boy had to go to yale. like thurston howell. my favorite scene from "gilligan's island," they have a savage coming out eating food, and thurston goes, god love ye. that's josh. and to make things worse, he had to go to stanford. they don't even teach the first amendment in stanford.

>> okay. here we go. >> a lot of vegan options in the cafeteria. >> he's like lewis, he has the bone structure of like a bird. >> he still does. >> i'm joking. first of all, why it's so great to have all of us together again, i am glad jim vandehei is at home. honey, you need to go lie down and your wife should give you a paper bag to breathe into. i think it's going to be okay, but honestly, i'm not sure. >> i loved it, you were like, what did you say -- it's true because, i say it's true. >> no, because it's true. jim vandehei, thank you so much. >> no, wait a minute, how are the brewers doing this year? >> what am i supposed to say to that? >> exactly. >> mika, it's nice to see alexi back. >> of course, of course. >> we're losing his signal. >> jim vandehei -- >> are the brewers playing baseball this year? >> just shut up. you immediate to stop talking.

still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> what addition are they in? >> central. >> they play baseball? >> sure. >> willie. >> who's the first -- >> cardinals? >> the carlson cubs. >> the cubs had kind of a run there for a little bit. >> brewers are right there. >> zip it! still ahead on "morning joe," republicans standing in the way of president biden's agenda isn't the only thing standing in the way. we'll go live to nbc's garrett haake in west virginia who spoke with the senator who many consider the most powerful man on capitol hill, democrat joe manchin. plus, the u.s. economy in sharp focus this morning as we await the may jobs report last month's report a fluke or the first sign of a slide? plus, the inside story of how toxic politics and hidden agendas hindered u.s. efforts to exam the origin of the coronavirus. you're watching.

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live look at the white house this morning at 33 past the hour. president biden will continue negotiations with republicans today on his new tax plan to pay for infrastructure investments. the president is expected to talk again with west virginia senator, shelly moore capito, the lead negotiator on the republican side. but here's now senate minority leader mitch mcconnell reacted to biden's new tax proposal that would keep the 2017 tax cuts in place. >> once you get into this tax

increase area, you'll create an enormous amount of controversy. so i don't think that's going to appeal to members of my party. >> yeah, definitely don't want controversy and we want to protect those rich people. they've suffered. >> i keep waiting for mitch mcconnell to redeem himself. >> it's been so hard for them. >> senator mcconnell says the least of biden's obstacles is him. democratic senator joe manchin of west virginia is holding out for a bipartisan deal on infrastructure. >> you know -- >> are you ready to go it alone with just democrats if -- >> i don't think you should, i really don't. >> at all? anything? >> i don't think, right now, we basically need to be bipartisan. if we can't become -- i've never seen this. i've never seen a pothole that had a republican or democrat name on it. it will bust your tire, i don't care who you are. >> all right. so he's doing his best. he's trying to hold out. he's trying to find those ten

good republicans. by the way, mitch mcconnell's job is to represent the caucus. the majority of the caucus is against doing deals with biden. but joe manchin keeps thinking he'll find ten republicans he can work with. what do you think, walter? >> i think it's a noble effort. >> it is a noble effort. >> and i do think that more important than the size of the infrastructure bill would be both the reality and symbolism of getting something bipartisan through. >> right. >> and then you can have another bill that tries to do other things. so i think, if you could get either the romney and capito group together or people like manchin could pull it off, this would be a relief for the country. and as you've said before, they have trouble demonizing joe biden and this would, i think, help biden say, i'm somebody who can bring people together.

>> and it's not going to be easy. again, if it were easy, then we would have had bipartisan legislation passed over the past decade. there hasn't been. >> for all the reasons we were just talking about, with the current state of the republican party. but i was talking with somebody yesterday who used to work closely with joe manchin. and i was sort of like, you know, what's his deal. now that we have president biden and democrats control the house and the senate, what's his play here? and this person was like, look, he used to be a governor and this is truly the way he thinks about things, that people should do things in a bipartisan manner, no matter what. and now we have again a president biden whose call for unity is inherently about bipartisanship in many ways. >> and biden suggested yesterday there might be some wiggle room in the deal in terms of taxes. we saw nbc news capitol hill correspondent garrett haake asking the questions of joe manchin there. garrett joins us this morning from west virginia. garrett, what does senator manchin see in terms of finding a group of republicans that will suddenly work with him on this bill and others? >> well, willie, he said, this

is the best he's seen the senate work in the ten years he's been here. and i think a lot of people would take issue with that. and you heard what he had to say about the infrastructure bill. but we went through this on issue after issue. he is dug in. i don't think there's anything for progressives to hang on to here. he doesn't want to do infrastructure any way but a bipartisan way. he doesn't want to do a voting rights bill any but a bipartisan way. and if you think republicans don't want to spend tax dollars on infrastructure, wait until you start talking to them about doing s-1, the big voting rights package that democrats want to do. manchin thinks he could find a couple of votes for the john lewis voting rights act, which is a little bit smaller, a little bit narrowner scope. but only lisa murkowski has signed on to that. he is pushing the stone up the hill trying to get all of this done. and i asked him about getting called out by the president earlier this week. the idea that there's democrats in the senate who vote with the other guys more than they vote with us. that's not actually technically true of manchin.

but i ask him if he understands where that comes from. the idea that democrats want more from him and this is what he told me. some democrats want you to be more partisan, they want you to be with them on s-1 or getting rid of the filibuster. >> i represent the state of west virginia. that's who hired me. i represent them in the best possible fashion i can. and i am not -- i am not going to get in a situation where i'm placating to different people that want different things. it's my state and it's the people who know me here. i haven't changed. i'm not changing. so for them to expect me to be something different than i'm not, it's not who i am. >> and i think we get that. i asked him what his message is to folks who are in georgia or florida or any other state where these restrictive voting rights measures are being passed while he's trying to find bipartisan support for something else. and they tell me they should just keep working on it. >> all right.

garrett haake, thank you so much! >> thank you, garrett. >> greatly appreciate it. let's just reconfirm something for people who might be watching and are very frustrated with senator manchin. as alexi said, he was a governor. as walter, anybody else who's seen somebody who has been a governor and a senator will tell you, governors remain governors. even when you call them senators. like, and they believe in making the legislative body work. he also comes from a state that voted for donald trump. 69% voted for donald trump. he's not a coward, because if he were a political coward, like people were saying on twitter, then after sandy hook, he wouldn't have started pushing gun safety legislation in west virginia. that was a really courageous thing to do. and the got re-elected, even after taking on the nra.

let's see somebody without courage doing that. but hr-1 is not going to pass. and by the way, i just -- i hate to break that to people that are watching this, it is a -- it is not going to pass, as is. there are going to have to be some radical revisions and much more the middle. and manchin also is not going to blow up the filibuster, except maybe under some extraordinary circumstances. so with this being the reality, democrats can keep banging their heads against the wall and insulting joe manchin. it's not going to change anything. >> manchin also is -- his mentor was senator bird from west virginia. manchin has taken that to heart as well. and he is fond of saying that, look, he knows that he frustrates sometimes liberal democrats, but he's like, if you don't like me, what would you think of the person who would replace me? it's not going to be in a democrat in a state like west virginia. he's like, this is the only

chance you have to have a democrat in this seat representing this state. but what we're seeing here, it's as much as, the white house has been trying to satisfy manchin and sinema, the moderate democrats with these repeated bipartisan outreach on infrastructure. to show them like, hey, we're trying our best. we're trying to get the republicans onboard here, trying to say like, look, if they won't deal with us, maybe we can convince you to come onboard and do this by reconciliation. but that's not certain. it's not a guarantee at the end of the day. and it seems like manchin has made this very clear, he doesn't want to do a party-line only vote. that's what we're hearing from yesterday, the new counter offer from the white house, president biden moving away from some of the tax plan, instead, suggesting a tax floor. a minimum 15% for corporations. many of whom aren't paying anything, that we could fund it that way, with additional irs enforcement. they are trying to find some sort of middle ground to satisfy doing this part, the infrastructure part with some republican votes. we want to turn now to the latest on the pandemic.

nbc news now puts the u.s. death toll from covid-19 at more than 600,000. the country crossed the half million mark back in april. the numbers have decreased significantly since more people have been vaccinated, but according to the cdc, hundreds of deaths are still reported daily. the agency said last week, the numbers of cases and deaths had dropped to their lowest level in almost a year. more than 136 million people in the u.s., nearly 38% of the population have been fully vaccinated so far. meanwhile, the effects of the economic downturn during the pandemic have been devastating, especially for women of color, many of whom are struggling to keep their businesses alive. alexi mccammond, you have a new piece on knowyourvalue.com hosting a new initiative to

boost investments this these women backed by ayesha curry and valerie jarrett. >> you've spent years working in space to support and uplift black women and while we've made progress in many areas, the reality is that black women face economic inequalities at all stages of life, from prenatal care to retirement. what's different for you in this moment from where you see it? >> i think where there's a will, there's a way. and when you have major wall street firms saying, we want to bet on black women and we think it's a good investment. and the fact that the vast majority of their investments are investment dollars, not grant dollars, sends the message this makes good business sense. i think the business community writ large has been doing some soul searching, as they should. and many of them are stepping up to say, let's help change the

paradigm. >> you've been a vocal advocate or really kind of vocal about how food can play a crucial role in our personal wellness journeys. i'm curious how that informs the work you're doing with the million black women initiative. >> for me, food is the hub, the epicenter of everything. women make up only 7% of the restaurant industry when it comes to being executives or owners of restaurants. so the number of black women that are doing that is far less. and so for me, it's so important to advocate for restaurants in general, to let people know that there is space for them to be a part of this industry. >> so alexi, first of all, great conversations. but tell us more about this initiative and what are some of the facets that could be replicated either by our government or by other companies, who could follow suit. >> yeah, well, as you saw, women like ayesha curry, valerie

jarrett, former secretary of state, condoleezza rice, are all on this advisory council for this initiative called one million black women that goldman sachs has launched. it's a $10 million investment for specifically for black women and black female business owners over the next decade. so aisha curry is helping and valerie jarrett is helping with other folks, trying to figure out solutions for one of the age-old problems which is just a simple lack of access to capital. and if you are a black woman in particular and you want to start a business of some sort, that takes a learning curve, there are barriers to entry, and you think, where am i going to get the money or the funding, i don't typically go to my friends or family like other folks do, so they're looking at ways to do that through grants and direct investments and otherwise over the next ten years. and when i talked to these women involved, they sort of said, look, this is great, we're happy to be a part of it, but we need others to join in this effort. >> access to capital has always

been an issued, especially for black-owned businesses, but at least half of them were decimated by the pandemic. you can see alexi's reporting and full interviews with ayesha curry anderie jarrett at knowyourvalue.com. thank you very much, alexi mccammond for that. coming up, new reporting on how the lab leak theory survived the transition from trump to biden and where things stand now. "morning joe" is back in a moment. now. "morning joe" is back in a moment finding new routes to reach your customers, and new ways for them to reach you... is what business is all about. it's what the united states postal service has always been about. so as your business changes, we're changing with it. with e-commerce that runs at the speed of now. next day and two-day shipping nationwide. same day shipping across town. returns right from the doorstep,

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have you come around more to the possibility of a lab leak theory? do you think it's more credible today than it was then? >> you know, i'm not so sure. i think one of the things that has stimulated interest, which i

think is important to investigate is the idea, and we need to find out if it's true or not, of the fact that there was some people who worked at the lab who got ill. we need to find out, "a," is that true, and "b," what was the nature of their illness? and those are things we just need to find out. if that's something that turns out to be an important feature, then you can say, whom, that may lean a little bit more towards one. but i think what people might be getting confused, is there more interest of it, or is there really more evidence. the evidence is very sparse, and that's the reason why we want to keep looking. >> dr. anthony fauci yesterday on "morning joe" speaking about the origins of the coronavirus. a sweeping new report in "vanity fair" looks at how toxic politics and hidden agendas in the u.s. government have blocked

the examination of covid-19's origin. joining us now, the author of that report, contributor to "vanity fair," katherine ebann. >> katherine, i would like to build this up, but i'm one of these guys who says, why don't we just go hamlet in the first hakt. i see this part right here. explain this to us. a december 2020 state department meeting, one official admonished his colleagues not to ask questions about the wuhan virology institute, something known as gain of function, why, you ask? she tells us. as it would call attention to the u.s. government's support for that research. tell us what that means. >> so let me just first say, this is one of the most complicated stories that i have ever reported. and i said it's like ans drawing

where every time you think you've gotten to the top of the staircase and it takes another twist. but the fact of the matter is, the u.s. was and is heavily invested in gain of function research, including grant money that went to the wuhan institute of virology. >> very quickly, explain to our viewers gain of function. >> okay. so gain of function is basically the effort to alter a pathogen in some matter to see if it can become more infectious to humans. >> and you do that why? >> there are reasons to do it, which is, it can help with vaccine development, it can help detect risks, but there are other people who describe it as looking for a gas leak with a lighted match. you know, that basically by trying to gauge the infectiousness of certain pathogens potentially, that you

run the risk of unleashing them, and why do that when they don't exist in nature to begin with. >> so let's back up. >> okay. so what i said to you at the top was basically in 2020, after the election, there's a meeting in the state department. an official tells everybody, back off, don't ask too many questions about what china's doing, what they're doing in wuhan, because that may come back to bite the united states government, because they helped with funding of gain of function research. >> right. so, you know, the article documents this very sharp divide between these two groups within the state department. the people who were within the meeting were just shocked to hear a u.s. government official -- >> can you tell us who that is, by the way? >> sure, i name him in the story. christopher park. who is a biological policy expert in the state department.

and they were, you know, shocked to hear somebody in the u.s. government arguing against transparency and, you know, one of the people we quoted, thomas denano, a state department official said it smelled like a cover-up and he didn't want to be a part of it. you know, christopher park, when i interviewed him said what he was arguing against is making a leap in logic to say that there is something untoward about gain of function research to begin with. it's not to say it's fishy, but thomas denano documented in a memo that i obtained the idea that his team, he ran the bureau of harvest control verification and compliance. his team felt they were repeatedly being told not to dig in sensitive places. and in sensitive places where it would be linked to the u.s.

government's involvement in gain of function research, whether that was its funding of it, or that it performed itself. >> walter? >> let me ask you, there's a character in your piece, peter dasak, he's the one, an american zoologist, and he's funded by the american institutes of health, right? and he's funded to do gain of function research, right? and he's working for the wuhan -- working with the wuhan institute and even some of grant money gets transferred there. is that sort of the issue at stake that we were funding gain of function research and we knew that it was being done in wuhan? >> that is. you know, ecohealth alliance's model, which some people raise questions about, is that there's sort of a scientific middle man. that they're divvying up these grants and parcelling them out, partially to further their goal,

which is, go out into these super remote areas, find these bat samples, and bring them back. now, critics of dasak say, you know, you're going out into the remotest areas, finding these samples, bringing them back to these crowded metropolises, like wuhan, which has 11 million people in it, you know, and then you have this fundamental problem. you know why in the dead of winter when most bats are hibernating, in a city where there are no bats, in a market where they're not sold would we have an outbreak with the wuhan institute of virology seven miles away, doing this risky, dangerous research in gain of function research to try to soup up these pathogens. >> so public health experts and officials publicly at least, we had dr. fauci on yesterday, won't commit to the zoonotic transfer or the lab leak. they say it's too early, we're doing research, there's not enough evidence to make a

declarative statement about either. you talked to, i assume, hundreds of people for this incredible story. what is the leading theory when you talk to experts who have been studying this? do they lean more towards a lab leak or the animal transfer? >> at this point, i don't know if it's -- i mean, every individual has a leading theory, and for a long time, part of the issue was the mantra was that there was a scientific consensus. peter dasak seems to be involved in what appears to be manufacturing a scientific consensus through an early article in the lancet that he sort of stage managed it, with a lot of people who work for him, who he pays, that were cosigners on this statement. but at this point, i don't think there is scientific consensus. and i think the people who say they know where this came from probably don't know what they're talking about. when i investigated the lab leak question and the wuhan institute

of virology, there is smoke coming out of every single window. you know, but what i set out to do as an investigative journalist is just track, what happened to the legitimate questions that were being asked. not a conspiracy theories, and that was a lot of the reporting, is to strip those away. but what happened to the legitimate questions of credible doubters who looked at this fact pattern and said, doesn't this deserve an equal investigation? >> so what were the years that you thought, you're looking at where the government didn't want -- was it from the beginning? i guess, i should say, the time frame. was it from january of 2020 moving forward that they didn't want those questions asked? >> let's put it this way. as richard e. bright who's a scientist i interviewed said it took him about a picosecond or a

nanosecond to think about the wuhan institute of virology, as soon as he heard about a potential novel coronavirus in wuhan. so it started right away, the questions, january, february 2020, onward. >> to take one more big step back and talk about why this story is important. we've gone so far down the road on television and in the media about what it would mean if there were a lab leak that china covered up, that perhaps some united states scientists were interested in keep quiet, what would be the implications of lying about something that escaped and killed 3.5 million people in the world? >> i mean, you know, the implications are almost mind boggling. it's like a chernobyl for the field of virology and science in general, i think. this idea that because of this research you had unleashed this pathogen on the world, that's

staggering. in a lot of ways, mentally, it's a lot easier and more relaxing to sit around and think about a zoonotic origin. >> this has become such a toxic political issue with the right slamming on it. we've already been proved and we know we were talking earlier how the former president trump will be back holding a rally this weekend and his aides have said he's going to be talking about this and blaming china for it. the biden administration in the next few days say they have found new intelligence that have caused them to reopen the investigation. he's pressing agencies over the next 90 days or so to figure out and learn as much as they can. what's your sense of what they're looking about and what they can find? >> a couple of interesting points on that. one of the big sort of leads or pieces of information about sick researchers at the wuhan institute of virology, and researchers who were working on gain of function issues, part of that came from a foreign service

that told u.s. investigators, look in your own files. you have information there. so i think the idea with the biden intelligence analysis is, you know, even if the chinese are not willing to give access to the wuhan institute of virology, there's a lot to be gleaned from our own intelligence files. >> which is so interesting, because in the early part of this, when people started writing files in june of 2020, we heard about the mad dash in late fall, early winter of 2019 and into early 2020, u.s. officials and trump administration urgently trying to get the chinese to cooperate with us. and you're saying that some of the members of the trump administration could have looked in their own files and found some clues? >> that's right. basically, at this point, china

has said, and has said at the world health assembly meeting a week and a half ago, the investigation inside china is over. we are not cooperating anymore. we're not opening up lab notebooks, we're not giving you access to our raw data. so then the question becomes, how do we ever answer this question? and i think the idea is that there is information that we have in our own possession that allies, foreign allies may have their own possession, you know, as well as sort of the statistical capabilities of the u.s. government. >> and we should also say, in a whole year, we have not found any host animal. so if the chinese had some ed of zoonotic transmission, they would have -- >> they would have loved to put that forth. >> let me tell you, the chinese government has launched the biggest bat hunt in history to try to find this zoonotic origin

of covid-19. i think the number i heard was, you know, they've sampled 80,000 different animals and we still don't have a zoonotic origin. katherine eban, the remarkably in-depth reporting can be found in "vanity fair." thank you so much for coming on this morning. so a few minutes past the top of the hour, the u.s. is lending a hand in the global fight against the coronavirus with plans to donate millions of vaccine doses. nbc news white house correspondent kelly o'donnell has more. >> reporter: the president out biking in rehoboth beach, delaware, rolled out his plan to share american-made covid vaccines. moderna, pfizer, and j&j around the globe of growing pressure to act. 80 million doses exported by the end of this month. >> we need to help fight the disease around the world to keep us safe here at home.

>> reporter: as more americans roll up their sleeves, today covid cases here have fallen to the lowest level since march 2020. a sign, officials say, the u.s. can turn outward, with destinations announced today for the first 25 million doses. 6 million for south and central america, 7 million to asia, africa, 5 million, another $6 million reserved for allies in need. the white house will rely on the united nations' covax program to distribute most of the vaccines. but republican senator ben sasse criticized u.n. involvement, suggesting the u.s. should get more credit. this is a squandered opportunity to demonstrate american leadership. >> the united states will not use its vaccines to secure favors from other countries. >> reporter: this vaccine diplomacy is in high demand and carefully timed. the u.s. is giving more than any other nation and the announcement comes just days

before the president makes his first trip overseas. >> our thanks to nbc's kelly o'donnell for that report. and joining the conversation, we have former secretary of homeland security, under president obama, jeh johnson joins us, host of the new podcast, on brand with donny deutsch. donny, it's actually good. >> it's actually good. >> put that on the poster. >> we've got hunter biden on this week. really interesting stuff. >> i've been watching and listening. >> i appreciate that. i like that. you know, there was no even, no mini dig in there. it was very sweet. >> msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson joins us. and "new york times" reporter and msnbc national security analyst, michael schmidt is with us. he's the author of the book "donald trump versus the united states: inside the struggle to stop a president." let's get back to what former

vice president mike pence said last night to new hampshire's hillsborough county republicans about the january 6th attack on the capitol. >> january 6th was a dark day in the history of the united states capitol. but thanks to the swift action of the capitol police and federal law enforcement, violence was quelled, the capitol was secured. and that same day, we reconvened the congress and did our duty under the constitution and the laws of the united states. >> president trump and i have spoken many times since we left office. and i don't know if we'll ever see eye-to-eye on that day. but i will always be proud of what we accomplished for the american people over the last four years. [ applause ]

and i will not allow democrats or their allies in the media to use one tragic day to discredit the aspirations of millions of americans. >> so secretary johnson, there was a lot of yes, but. yes, it was a dark day, but i'm not going to let democrats and radical leftists discredit four years of what we accomplished. he said, yes, president trump and i don't see eye to eye about what happened, but, and moving on very quickly, of course, as we pointed out very quickly, mike pence was one of the targets of the attacks on the capitol. hang mike pence were the chants. what do you make of the posture, of not just the vice president, but republicans who didn't vote for a january 6th commission and large swath of this country that doesn't want to look back on

that terrible day? >> i believe that the tone of the former vice president's remarks is a real disservice to the public. you listen to the tenor of it, some people did some bad things, we put a stop to it, we did our jobs and i move on to my applause line. what happened on january 6th was the very definition of an insurrection. it was an attack on the cradle of our democracy, in the midst of a constitutional function. i regret that in the vote last week on the january 6th commission legislation, a lot of people decided to support and defend their political interests rather than the constitution. this is a matter of national security and public safety. what happened on january 6th exposed some real scenes and cracks in the command and control relationships between the capitol police, the national

guard, the secret service that need to be investigated. regrettably, that's not going to happen. i did some research the other day and looked up the senate vote for the 9/11 commission, it was 90-8. that's a lot of democrats, that's a lot of republicans. imagine if the 9/11 commission legislation never happened because some republicans were worried about embarrassing the bush administration because it happened on their watch? that didn't happen. there was obviously the larger national interest in studying the event and regrettably, that looks as if it's not going to happen here. and i think that's a real disservice to the country. >> i keep going back to what general powell say, secretary colin powell said when he was on the show. he said, what we were saying at home and what we were watching and i'm sure what every american was saying that actually cared about this country. and that is where the hell are

the police? where the hell is the national guard? where the hell are the reinforcements? why is this mob allowed to go through and put lies of members of congress and their staff in danger, beat the hell out of police officers, and we're all just helplessly watching it on tv. and yet you have republicans in the united states senate that don't want us to know the answers. it is shocking, by any measure. >> we'll never know about that three hours that it took trump to bring in the national guard. look i've sad this many times, the republican party has become the party of stupid in terms of they're just playing a losing hand at this point. but they've also abandoned the last bastion of they're not the law and order party anymore. they can't own law and order. i know a few people have talked about this already, but if you're not going to investigate a policeman being killed and

police being beaten -- >> with an american flag -- >> with an american flag, you don't own -- not only do democrats own health care and a covid relief bill, you can't even -- you guys talked how there's no ideology behind this party anymore. and the last bastion of conservatism, the things you ticked off are gone, are also law and order. they lost that. and to me, if i was a democratic strategist right now, i would make that a centerpiece, because that just rips out the last bastion of anything that that party stands for. >> especially since day talked about that throughout the 2020 campaign. and to talk about that throughout the campaign 2020 and talking about supporting our police officers and watching our officers getting their heads jammed in doors or being beaten and brutalized within inches of their death.

talking about weeping still on television how they're never going to see their children again and they want to protect these trump supporters? do what you want, but don't tell me you give a damn about police officers or you give a damn about law and order, because they simply don't. mike schmidt, so republicans aren't going to do their job in congress. what is, get us updated on the fbi and also what's happening with a lot of these people that are being pulled into court. we're noticing some are not getting the stiff sentences that at least if you look at what the statute says about the conspiracy to commit sedition, they're not getting some of the stronger sentences that we would expect. >> so in a larger sense, we're almost six months here into this

new justice department, which has had to grapple with the insurrection, all of these different cases, cases that include low to high-level charges and a justice department that has to clean up a lot of stuff that's left over from the trump administration. whether that is dealing with an array of lawsuits like the john bolton lawsuit and the investigation of john bolton. whether that's dealing with how the disclosure of documents related to the mueller investigation. you've seen the justice department having to still be the justice department and still clean up these issues that were left over from trump. and not everything that has come out of that has pleased the left or has pleased regular sort of government critics and such. whether it's the issue that you were pointing out on the insurrection or issues related to these document fights over

the mueller investigation and what is going to come out about that. and what you see is the justice department grappling with how much sunlight to shine on these things like documentses that would explain how bill barr decided to say whether donald trump broke the law or not. and the institutional prerogatives of justice department lawyers to have discussions about how they make decisions. and not all of that has been satisfying to folks that want more and more information and more and more accountability coming out of trump. and i think we will continue to see that in the months to come, as they weed through a range of different things, including informing members of the media about actions taken against them. >> jim robertson, this is all part of a different thread, the defeat of the january 6th

commission. it's all about donald trump's hold on the republican party. we know that we're going to hear from him this weekend as he returns to the rally stage. and he's been telling people there's a chance he could be restored to office this summer. a few republicans who do not support the president have said to me optimistically that they think if trump starts saying things like that, that joe biden will be removed from office and he'll come back in. that that could be a moment that could finally lead some others republicans to walk away from him. that would be the bridge too far. what do you think? >> how many bridges too far have we crossed? >> right! >> how many in the last five or six years have we crossed? no. that's not going to end donald trump's hold on the republican party. the republican party is a cult right now. it is a cult of trump. and that's where the base is and as long as the base is there, that's where the officials are

going to be. so if this is a party that, you know, is -- that kicks out -- kicks liz cheney out of leadership, it's not a conservative party. it stands for no principles, as donny said. it doesn't stand for law and order, if it doesn't even want to bother to investigate the capitol insurrection. it's plainly and simply a cult. and that's the way it's going to be for the foreseeable future. i don't see what's going to change that, but i certainly don't think that the switch is going to be flipped, because donald trump says something crazy. because guess what, donald trump says something -- you know, how many millions of crazy things has drrp donald trump said that causes us all to shake our heads and say, this will be it. this won't be it. >> we'll see. the biden administration is ramping up its response to cyber

attacks after a recent wave of hacks crippled several major companies. u.s. officials tell nbc news that the white house is looking to treat these attacks as national security threats, using intelligence agencies to spy on hacking groups and considering cyber responses of their own. nbc news national correspondent miguel almaguer reports. >> reporter: the controversial move comes after an urgent white house warning that no company or corporation is safe. in the face of damaging cyber attacks, a new white house memo reads, the number and size of ransomware incidents have increased significantly. business executives should immediately convene their leadership teams to discuss the ransomware threat and ensure you have the ability to quickly or quickly restore operations. >> these criminal groups are able to make a profit off the backs of businesses, schools, local governments, and more. >> reporter: calling ransomware

attacks a threat to core business operations, not just data beaches, the white house says the private sector has a distinct and key responsibility. >> and willie, we were talking about this the other day. of course, we've had pipeline -- a lot of things -- and now the ferry between martha's vineyard and nantucket. >> high yan tennis. an attack against one is an attack against all >> there was an attack that runs the ferries from nantucket to martha's vineyard. >> i've been there 60 years. >> it's close to home. >> no, no. >> not the hamptons! of course. of course you're talking about the hamptons. all i can say is, not words of prescott bush, ride to the sound

of gunfire. >> the resistance headquarters are at the top of main street. >> so we've got that taken care of. we've sent the bat signal out to wasps across the planet, that are going to nantucket this summer. but mr. secretary, seriously, ransomware. we're seeing it time and again we have to start treating this like terrorism, right? >> it's a vast national and international crime wave. one of the dangerous things about ransomware and very few people will really say this is the amount demanded is very often affordable. it's been reported that -- reported that, you know, the recent attack on colonial pipeline, the demand was $5 million. to restore oil and gas to the entire northeast, a lot of people would say, let's do it. right. so it very often is -- it's

affordable. now, going back to what was just previously said, an attack on critical infrastructure in this country, and the pipeline is critical infrastructure, warrants a defensive and offensive response, not just by the intelligence community, by the department of defense, u.s. cyber command. so the administration's statement along those lines yesterday was perfectly appropriate. that's the stakes are high when we have to deal with cyber attacks on critical infrastructure in this country. >> is part of this, though, so many of these cyber attacks seem to come from one country in particular, russia. and the government says it has deniability. doesn't know what it's doing, but seems at least giving license or the ability to cover for these countries. what does the administration do there? is there a way to rattle the cages of the kremlin, particularly considering there's a summit coming up between biden and putin. >> two things. very often, in my experience,

russia and china, when they engage in cyber attacks, they always kind of outsource it to an organization, so they have a degree of deniability. i've had very senior-level chinese officials look me in the eye and say, it wasn't me. okay, how about the guy you tasked? the other thing here is there was probably a conversation between our government, in which they said, tell them to cut it out, something along those lines. but it is complicated and when you're dealing with russia and china, you may be dealing with a government actor or a hidden thand there. and the truth is, if you want to cripple the pipeline, you don't have to have a fleet of ships or

mechanisms, you go and scramble some code. it's the future of war. >> and this is -- mr. secretary, you talked about, let's briefly let's just talk about what we do offensively. because we can sit back, if we want to. we can let people keep doing this to us. or we can start shutting down cities ourselves. we obviously have far greater technology capabilities than the russians, but we just sit back and allow them to keep doing it because it's an asymmetrical gain for them. i'm not just saying russia, but whoever it is, if the north koreans do this, let's just shut down the grid. and shut down whatever we need to shut down to get their attention and say, whatever you do to us, we promise you, things will get much worse for you. >> there is stuff that we do,

that we can do, that is overt and covert and the nation on the receiving end knows we did it, but we're not going to just come out and say, yeah, it was us. the other point is, i gave testimony a couple of years ago before the house armed services committee about the circumstances under which a cyber attack can constitute an act of war, warranting a military response and there are circumstances. if the cyber attack causes physical destruction, a loss of life, like a kinetic attack, that would warrant a full response, proportionality, of course, but a cyber attack can constitute an act of war. >> all right. a couple of other stories to get to on that chilling note. former white house council to donald trump will be on capitol hill this morning. don mcgahn will face questions behind closed doors by the house judiciary committee. it's taken house democrats two years to get mrk gahn to appear

to answer questions about the russia investigation and trump's efforts to obstruct it. trump blocked the committee's subpoena, but last month, a federal court reached a deal for him to testify. however, mcgahn can only be asked about his involvement related to the mueller investigation. >> michael schmidt, wlar we going to learn today? >> the thing is, i don't think we'll learn a lot. and if there was ever a better example of the difficulties that house democrats had in sort of publicly prosecuting the case against trump, today is a great example. here we are, all of this time removed from the mueller investigation, having a witness come up to testify about the things that are in the document and that witness is not going to be testifying publicly, he's going to testify privately. so the idea of galvanizing the

public behind, you know, someone coming up and laying these things out will be found in a transcript that comes out, you know, a week or ten days or several weeks from now. so i don't think there's a lot we're going to learn, because don mcgahn has constraints on him, per this deal, which is that he can only testify as to what's in the document, and we already know what's in the document. so i'm not even sure why they're going through this exercise. i guess it sort of -- you know, to perhaps make up for the fact that they went all of the this way in terms of litigation. but unless mcgahn makes a mistake, which i would be a bit surprised by. he'll have his lawyer in the room, bill burke, probably a justice department lawyer sitting there, to make sure he doesn't go outside the terms of his deal, there probably will not be a lot to come of it.

and obviously, we would all like to hear from don mcgahn about what happened with donald trump and how donald trump tried to use him obstruct the mueller investigation, but i don't think today will be that day. >> michael schmidt, you're an important guy, obviously. your phone records were seized by the federal government as part of a leak administration. if somebody tried to seize my phone records, you would see calls to krispy kreme, gun shops, offtrack betting. but apparently, the trump administration thought that they could seize your phone records without you knowing anything about it. first of all, let me ask you, how does that make you feel? and secondly, what concerns do you have? it's not sort of, it is chilling that our federal government, from time to time, feels like they can seize reporters' phone records. >> so the -- so we -- i found

out about this yesterday or two days ago when i got a letter from the justice department that laid out what had happened. they said they took 90 days of my phone records from a critically important time from the trump administration from january of 2015 from april of 2017. obviously, there was an enormous amount going on in that period of time and we were scrambling in many different ways to try to cover that story. beyond that, i really don't know a lot more. the justice department said that they sought my e-mails over that period of time or at least information from my e-mails or they had the ability to get that, but that information was not handed offered by the folks that host our e-mails, so all they had was my phone records. in many ways, you know, this is not a surprising thing, given the rhetoric that came out of the white house under the trump

administration about this issue. and the posture of the justice department. and i'm not sure that, you know, even someone like bill barr who was the attorney general when this happened would see this as a stain at all on their record, but it is obviously an enormously chilling thing for those of us that work and treasure in the first amendment. and i'll sort of leave it to "the times" to, you know, deal with it from here. >> gene robinson, in 2013, the obama administration seized the phone records of an associated press reporters and their editors, as well. is there not some step that administrations should have to go through, like, go to, before they're able to do that, put the reporters on notice, at least? >> this is stranlgs and we should point out that these abuses of the trump

administration are a terrible threat to the first amendment. but as you point out, the obama administration was no picnic. the obama administration pursued leaks as vigorously as the trump administration in many ways. and actually used the espionage act to try to track down leakers and punish them, more than all previous administrations put together. and so that was definitely a slip down a slippery slope. it was partially reversed towards the end of the administration, when they kind of said, mea culpa and we'll stop doing this, but then the trump administration really revved it up. and you know, seizing -- why do you see mike schmidt's phone records? well, you want to know who's giving him all of that good

information that he's using to embarrass the administration and put the presidential in potential legal jeopardy and they want to know who's spilling. so that's what they were trying to find out. and it is the definition of chilling to journalses. all journalists should be outraged and appalled at this. >> jonathan lemire, earlier this week, i asked chuck rosenberg, what do we do to stop all of these leaks from the intel agencies that reporters chase down and intel agencies are able to get reporters chasing, you know, all of these different stories. and sometimes they don't have good intel. and chuck rosenberg said, that's a great. he said, but people in the press are going to have to make some additional choices. if we do leak investigations,

we'll have to get ahold of phone records to see who's leaking from the fbi or who's leaking from the cia or who's leaking from the nsa. and so it is a balancing act. how do we balance those two interests? >> certainly, the first amendment should provide protections and this moves in a gray area. "the times" and associated press are trying to push back against this. i would like to get the former secretary's opinion on this who worked in the obama administration, which has come up as someone who did do this. >> obama administration, that's me, yes. here, sitting at the table. representative. look, there are -- i would not rule out in all circumstances subpoenaing the phone records of a reporter, who is the recipient of a major national security breach, which can jeopardize national security, jeopardize foreign relations. which should not happen, and there shouldn't be a lot of trip wires and approvals that you

have to go through before you subpoena the records of a journalist. what should not happen is the president wakes up one days and gets mad at "the new york times" or "the washington post" because there's a leak that embarrasses him and says, let's get these guys. that should not happen, whether it's richard nixon or donald trump, or anybody else. >> if you're in government, if there's a dangerous leak that's come out, obviously, the federal government has reason in the intel community have a reason to want to get to the bottom of it who inside their administration is leaking national security secrets to the media. but you're on the other side of that eequake, and you have a right to try to get that information from the government. how do we balance it? >> well, look, the way it has

been done and the way it should be done, i think, is to air on the side of the first amendment. err on the side of the free press. news organizations like the associated press, like "the new york times" also take national security very seriously. and i know of numerous instances where at "the washington post," our reporters lined information that was sensitive. and when they came to our editors and said, this is dangerous, we can't publish this, there are times that we withheld publication. there's information that we did not publish precisely because of those reasons.

that system worked really, really well for a long time. and i think it tilts the scale, puts a thumb on the scale unfairly, in an anti-first amendment way, if the reaction is to go after the reporters' notes and records in this manner. you know, if you want to look at the phone logs of federal employees who you think are leaking, presumably as the federal government, you have the right to do that, as a condition of employment. and so be my guess. but to go after a free and independent press is really, really dangerous, as jeh johnson said, if there's a extreme case

in which it's necessary, there has to be trip wires and steps and approvals and multiple ones, layers of approvals that have to take place. because it's very serious. >> gene robinson and michael schmidt, thank you for being on this morning, and jay johnson, of the obama administration, thank you very much. good to have you on and good to see you. in person. still ahead on "morning joe," new york city mayor bill de blasio will be our guest, but first, one of the candidates vying for his job. new york city comptroller, scott stringer joins us. the mayoral candidate has recently come under an allegation of sexual misconduct and a few days after that allegation came out, one progressive new york congressman took back his endorsement, but now that congressman says, he sometimes regrets pulling it. and that he should have been more patient. and asked more questions. we'll ask those questions, next s we'll ask those questions, nex

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willie and i going there this weekend. a lot of times we just hang out at the pier. >> kids are out of school. a coney island kind of weekend. hot and sunny out there. >> wonderful. it is 18 days from arguably the most consequential new york city election in decades. we've already spoken to a number of the democratic mayoral primary candidates and another major contender, new york city comptroller, scott stringer is

in the building. also on set with us, host of msnbc's "politics nation," and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. and political strategist and an msnbc political analyst, susan del percio joins us. >> so scott stringer, tell me about your housing plan? >> i thought you'd never ask. >> but tell me about your housing plan. >> he's actually asking. >> of course, it's great to be here, but right now in new york city, we're going to have to tackle homelessness for real this time, and build low-income housing for people. because 30% of the people in homeless shelters are actually people who work. they go to jobs, but they can't find an apartment. i want to take all the vacant land that the city owns, give that land to the people, give that land to not-for-profit organizations, not to the billionaire developers and actually build the housing that we need for the poorest people in the city. because we can't bring back our city if we don't include everybody. and that's what's been missing in the last eight years.

>> i talk to my friends in new york and hear two things over and over again, as we move through covid. but even before covid, i hear about homelessness, it's gone up more than people have seen in many years. and of course, after covid, crime. so are those really the two top issues, homelessness and crime, for a lot of new yorkers? >> we definitely hear about crime, we definitely hear about homelessness, but we're also thinking about how we're going to educate our children and bring them back to school. and we have to bring them back differently. because they'll need tutoring, mental health counseling. it's not just those issues, we have to bring the city back. this will be our biggest comeback and we have to hit all of the pieces of this which goes to housing and homelessness, but also education for children. >> so we're looking at these crime spikes in new york city. how are you looking at policing? over the last year or so, there's been a move to change policing. some people have called to

defund the police. what is a good new york police department look like to you? >> a good new york police department is solving the crime. we in new york city have the lowest clearance rates we've had in a very long time. we're only solving 26% of the violent crime. we are not going into communities with sound approaches, with more senior police officers. we've got to go find the shooters. but at the same time, we don't need to overpolice in black and brown communities. and we don't have to go into neighborhoods and have police respond to mental health issues, or wellness issues. this is outdated. this is not the model. and when i'm mayor, we'll make sure we fight the violent crime. but at the same time, we'll invest in violence interrupter programs. keep kids away from violence. i remember building prisons in upstate new york. these are republicans who want to create activity in upstate

new york. we've got to keep kids away from the criminal justice system and we can do both. and we can direct funding to invest in our kids. look, when the pandemic came, you know what city hall said? they said, let's cut summer jobs for kids? why would you that? the kids the future. and if you don't do what they need, they end up part of the correctional institutions. >> what's your position on bail reform? when you talk to new york city commissioner, that is a big problem with these crime statistics, it's a resolving door. with no cash bail, you can't hold something that has committed their 10th or 20th or 30th crime. do you think we should reinstate cash bail? >> so i deal with data. the data is not the true data. there's already discretion in the bail legislation. that's not what's driving crime. we have a national epidemic because of the pandemic. >> so new yorkers that tell me

that, they're wrong too? i hear this all the time from new yorkers, that it's a revolving door, one crime after another crime after another crime after crime is committed. that it get sent to jail, come out and continue committing crimes. >> it's not what the data suggests. sometimes if you want to be mayor of new york, you have to speak directly and honestly about what's going on. we have a police force that's not solving the violent crime. we have to change that. part of what we have to do is look at the police bureaucracies at the very high levels of the nypd. we've seen the bureaucracy grow by 76%. a $300 million ballooning of the budget. less money for the precincts. less money to invest in our kids. and we need a mayor with a fresh approach. >> do you think the crimes, the explosion in crime is the cops' fault? do you think it's the police bureaucracy's fault? >> i think it's at the door of the mayor and the next mayor is going to have to come in and

work to ensure the safety on the streets, but also not to go back to the giuliani-style era of policing, stop and frisk and all the things that reverend sharpton and others said was overpolicing in black and brown communities that left scars. we have to have a measured response. >> i remember reading articles, i think it was in the fall where people in sort of the nicer parts of brooklyn, were talking about defunding police, and then they talked about to representatives that represented people of color, black and brown community that said, we need more police. we need more police in our schools, we need more police on our streets. who do you listen to? the people that live in park slope or the people that live in the areas who need the police to protect their kids? >> first of all, no one is suggesting that we don't need police. and the people who say we don't need police to stop crime are kidding themselves. and there may be mayoral candidates who believe that. i don't. >> do you think they're being insensitive to people of color,

who actually are saying, our children are in danger when they walk to school every morning? >> i'm hearing two things. people want the guns off the streets and we have to make sure that happens. people want to feel safe. we have to make sure that happens. but there are people, people of color, and again, i come from -- i'm not trying to speak for communities of color. that's not what i do. but i know very much that there are a lot of grandmothers and a lot of parents who worry about their black son, even to this day in new york city. why can't we do two things at the same time? why can't we invest in kids and keep the streets safe. by the way, i grew up in new york city in the 18970s in a place called washington heights. there were 2,000 murders a year. i remember when i mother would say, when you get in the train, sit with the conductor. so you had 80 kids sitting in the conductor car, right? and the good news is, we don't talk that way anymore. so i'm not going to take our city back to those days. i have two little kids. they're not going back to those days. >> it sounds, quickly, you don't

have a lot of confidence in the way the police department is being run. would you suggest a change at top in commissioner shay? >> i'm going to bring in a commissioner who's aligned with my values and strategies if i'm elected mayor, absolutely. >> and that's not him? >> it will not be director shay. i think we need to clean house and set a new course because we have an increase in shootings and we need a mayor who will have a full public safety agenda. this is not easy. it's easy to scream about crime or to throw up your hands and act like rudy giuliani did in the ''90s, but this is a different era right now. we have got to get this right. >> as we deal with the issue of crime and policing and i think the re-locating of the homeless is going to be an issue. just today, we're seeing where they have instructed the courts saying that the hotel on 79th street had to relocate people back to where a shelter, which could be an interaction with policing.

we have to thread needle of how you protect people, which you're correct, people want crime down and in our communities, black and brown and asian latinos is at its highest, or is becoming higher. but at the same time, deal with with a large political profile that agreed to stop, stop and frisk. but don't do it where the police go overboard that we have that balance? >> to the balances, let's look at the hot spots in the city. they've existed, by the way, for more than a decade. and let's go in with more senior police officers. let's beef up the homicide bureaus and up the clearance rates. because the only way we're going to deal with crime is you've got to go in and solve the crime.

we're at an all-time low, 26%. but that's 50% of the job. we have got to keep kids away from the criminal justice system. and the way to do that is enact the programs that work, the violence interrupter programs. scale it up, and then let's also look at the 9-1-1 calls that come in. 40% of 9-1-1 calls are not for crime. they're for mental health issues or wellness issues. why are we sending police officers, tieing up their time and not sending the health professionals? they're doing this in oregon called the cahoots program. that already takes police out of the communities because we don't want them overpolicing. and this is the future of what our city can look like. >> scott, the other day at the debate, none of the candidates except for andrew yang wanted mayor de blasio's endorsement. you also were one of the people who gave him his administration an f for his tenure.

if you're going to be mayor and you take office on january 1st and you say you're the one with all the experience so i want specifics here, i mean hardcore specifics. >> numbers. >> numbers or actions, what do you do on day one, and as far as addressing the homeless crisis and how that also deals with crime specifically. and don't say build better housing for just the homeless because that's going to take years to do. so what do you do? how do you rally your police commissioner, what do you say to the people out there, what are you going to do that day? >> first of all, i know the main guy is coming on the show so i just want to say when bill de blasio comes on national tv, i got to have his back. >> i thought you were talking about -- [ laughter ] >> but you still have to do something. >> the rev's here, he's the main guy. >> i'm trying to be nice. [ laughter ] >> let's get specifics, because the homeless crisis right now

we're going to have, we have last night 60,000 people sleeping in homeless shelters, half of them are children. and the way i would deal with this specifically is i would take the 30% of the people who are working, they have jobs, they go to shelters to sleep, and i would -- >> can you do that on day one? >> you can build the program on day one and scale it up. i think we can do 10,000 supportive housing units a year. blazo gave all that land to the developers, the billionaires, and said build affordable housing. they didn't build affordable housing. they built unaffordable affordable housing. i want to change that. i want to go to community-based organization who know how to do this work. you involve the clergy, you involve civic associations and you build housing. why do i think this can work? because laguardia did it in the 1930s when he built public housing. ed gave abandoned buildings to

community-based organizations and revitalized the housing stock in the bronx. we made a deal with luxury developers to build low-income housing. it didn't work, the model was wrong. >> will you ask the police commissioner to send cops on the subways to remove homeless people from the subways and in the shelters on day one? >> so have police officers just run through the subways, pick up anyone they can, and throw them into a shelter? >> no. those who are obviously laying down on the cars, those who are doing considerably worse things in those cars. >> but if you're in a subway car, and i've seen this, unfortunately, for a lot of my life, why would you send a police officer to pull somebody with serious mental health issues who needs supportive services out of the subway if they're not doing anything violent? we need to send a robust mental health response team in. look, rikers island is now the largest mental health facility in new york city. we've got thousands of people

who are locked up, and we're spending $440,000, here's the data, right, per inmate on rutgers island. are we dealing with the real issue? >> so, to follow up with susan's question, then, will you then send mental health providers on day one to make sure that the subways are safe for children so they don't have to sit with conductors? >> there's nobody who's sent the professionals in and finished this job early. it's going to be january 1st. and when the mayor's here, tell him to do it now. we still have six months, we have a crisis. this whole game back and forth, we need 250 police officers, we need 500. do you know how vast this system is? this is not telling the truth to new yorkers. we got to do the hard work, and we've got to build that better. >> you were rising in the polls

earlier this spring, and then there was a sexual assault allegation that came to light in april from a woman named jean kim. and she claims you did all sorts of things, kissed her, groped her, and that she was working as an unpaid intern in your 2001 advocate campaign. i also know that you called on governor cuomo to resign. do you still think he should resign, and how do you respond to these allegations against you? >> i don't think our situation is similar. >> do you still think he should -- >> let me say this. i actually think that it's important, especially at this moment in time for women to be able to come forward in a safe space and make a charge and make a point and come forward with something. even if that's something like someone like me does not like. i deny the allegation, i have

strenuously denied the allegation. but i do think we have to listen, and we have to give space for women to be heard, and maybe that's getting better in this country, i think. >> because you had a relationship with her and there might be different ways of looking at things? >> i denied the allegation. it's not about her coming forward, i think that's important. i do think there has to be due process. and the due process for me will be going to the voters and making my case, and i'm very comfortable coming here and talking about it, and i'm fine having this discussion, and that's what i want to say. >> was she an intern? >> no, no. there are facts that have to be vetted. i'm not going to, you know, i don't want to go point by point because we've done that and other media publications. >> did you know her before she claimed to be hired as an intern? >> yes, we had a relationship. but this has all been played out for people to make a judgment.

and they have to look at my record, what my 30 years of service. >> do you think you've been given due process? or do you think that this has been -- you know, because this happens in other races. you look at tara reed and joe biden's campaign, and she had the space to talk, people investigated it, and then decided, you know, for the most part, moved on. that really hasn't happened here. you had one allegation, not corroborated i think, and correct me if i'm wrong, and basically your campaign was stopped dead. and every time i saw your name in the "new york times" that's all they wrote about, it seemed. >> my campaign is not stopped in its tracks. we have a tremendous coalition of labor leaders and unions. we have thousands and thousands of contributors, and we have a thousand volunteers that are going to be out in the next two

years. >> do you think you're going to win? >> i think i'm going to be the next mayor of new york city because when you go to the voters and make your case, as i did in the debate. i think reverend will tell you that we did pretty good in that debate and we laid out the issues. look, there are powerful people apart from all of this who are supporting andrew yang and eric adams. there's a group of billionaires that are not just funding one of them but funding two of them, and i'm the candidate who believes in public education, who's the progressive choice for mayor. >> is andrew yang qualified to be mayor? >> no, he's not qualified. >> eric adams? >> eric is a friend and he does have qualifications but i think he's in with the billionaires who want to privatize public education. i think we have a different vision on policing, and i think that's all -- >> speaking of billionaires, was mike bloomberg a good mayor? >> i think there were parts of the bloomberg administration that was very good. >> which one? >> there was a competence and an ability to attract talent. i think that on issues of stop

and frisk and interacting with communities of color, i think there was a separation between the administration, in my view. but i have a lot of respect for what he brought to the table. i do think the next mayor has to be and should be a real progressive but somebody who has experience, knows how to manage, and can actually fulfill the dreel dreams. >> speaking of former mayors, mika wants your guarantee that if you're elected mayor of this city you will never ever do a mr. pillow ad. >> oh, please don't do -- >> like rudy giuliani. >> i won't do it. >> two things i'm going to tell you, i'm not going to go to the gym -- >> i just want some clarity before we go. you found aspects of the bloomberg administration good, but you find no good aspects in the de blasio administration? >> i gave him an f, in part, because the possibilities were so powerful. i will give him credit for

pre-k. so i wouldn't dismiss him and i don't dismiss him personally, but i do think that the next mayor can't just talk about progressive vision. we're actually going to have to really ensure that we accomplish our goals, rev. we got a housing crisis, we have people who suffered during covid. my mom passed away from covid in a bronx hospital. >> i'm sorry. >> the doctors there said you have to understand this is not just a virus that killed older people like your mom, but people in our communities that were never invested, who the government never invested in. the next mayor has to end the health disparities and get things done. >> scott stringer, thank you very much for coming on the show. still ahead, the may jobs report crosses in less than 30 minutes. we're going to be covering that. the biden administration may have to rethink its economic

agenda. we'll have those numbers straight ahead. but first, mike pence speaks out about the january 6th insurrection, sort of. our 8:00 a.m. hour continues right now. we're going to have to fight much harder, and mike pence is going to have to come through for us. and if he doesn't, that will be a sad day for our country. [ chanting ] >> you know, president trump and i have spoken many times since we left office. and i don't know if we'll ever see eye to eye on that day. but i will always be proud of what we accomplish for the american people over the last four years. [ applause ]

and i will not allow democrats or their allies in the media to use one tragic day to discredit the aspirations of millions of americans. [ applause ] ♪♪ >> vice president mike pence not seeing eye to eye with the man who encouraged supporters to march on the capitol. >> you can send a politician to acting class. [ laughter ] to help improve their phony ivy league populist grule or mike pence's. still after all these years, still terrible ronald reagan imitation. really, i just again we'll get to the content in a second, but that's not what we're about.

[ laughter ] we're not about substance, this is about style. and we've talked about really some of the truly bad actors in american politics. of course, number one with a bullet after all of these years, ted cruz, josh hawley, he's counting down the top 40. he's jumped from 36 to number two. but mike pence, though -- >> my god. >> he's steadily hung at number seven or eight for the past five years, the worst ronald reagan imitation. if we have to talk about substance, then you do have to say, yeah, we may have disagreed a little bit. maybe he stirred up the crowd and told him i was still there and attacked me in a tweet when he knew i was still there, when they were chanting "hang mike pence," and my children and i

had to rush down to the basement with secret service because we were all afraid we were all going to be killed. and he was still -- but maybe we saw things a little differently there. this does go into the ted cruz where trump accuses ted cruz, right, of having a father who killed jfk, saying horrible things about his wife, and then, again, kissing up to him for the next five years. and then you have mike pence whose family's life was endangered. now he's talking about how gosh darn great he is. we got a new one, oh, debuting at number 38, george p. bush, terrible things said about his father, terrible things said about his mother. jep was so shocked about it, and

now george p. bush doing the best, getting those little koozies and now he's snuggling up. if anybody needs a job that badly that they betray their family, that really, a job's not worth it. their mom and dad, come on. >> let's not forget john kennedy -- acting senator john kennedy of louisiana. they should have john voigt do a little acting for him. >> you mean the john kerry supporter? >> yes, the guy -- yeah. >> and now he's, like, senator hokam from the oxford union. >> to your larger point, mike pence -- >> i think there was one in there. >> he's crystalizing things. >> to the larger point, of course we heard the "hang mike

pence" chant on january 6th. there was a gallows built outside, the point was taken. and so for him to just kiss that off and say we don't see eye to eye, we have a difference of opinion about what happened on january 6th, and then immediately turn away to defending donald trump and attacking democrats. it tells you everything you need to know about where the party is in new hampshire. the central target of that mob wants to move on from the question of what happened on january 6th. >> "hang mike pence," "hang mike pence." and yet this guy now is defending donald trump. there are no parallels in american history, none. >> it's a weird syndrome, and i'm glad you brought up my home state, senator john kennedy. it's both a faux populism and

also this cravenness towards trump, which is really going to come back and haunt people eventually. >> look, by the way, walter is here, jonathan lemire. here is what former vice president mike pence said about the january 6th attack on the capitol. >> january 6th was a dark day in the history of the united states capitol. but thanks to the swift action of the capitol police and federal law enforcement, violence was quelled. the capitol was secured. and that same day we reconvened the congress and did our duty under the constitution and the laws of the united states. you know, president trump and i have spoken many times since we left office. and i don't know if we'll ever see eye to eye on that day.

but i will always be proud of what we accomplish for the american people over the last four years. [ applause ] and i will not allow democrats or their allies and the media to use one tragic day to discredit the aspirations of millions of americans. >> you know, jonathan lemire, sure. [ laughter ] donald trump knew that mike pence's life was in danger, and maybe, maybe he also knew that mike pence's children's life,

that they were in danger as well, and his wife was in danger. and maybe he knew that mike pence had been pulled away from the chamber and rushed downstairs with secret service people. and maybe, just maybe he tweeted something after knowing that they put their lives in greater danger. but i will not sit here and watch people attack his back swing. it goes up slow, okay, and as it follows through, he does go, the weight is shifted from the right hill to the left through the ball. i will not sit here and watch him be attacked even though he tried to have me and my family killed. >> the only thing missing there was donald trump's broad shoulders, which were a staple of his remarks. >> and chants. they grip a golf club,

seriously, you would think. >> mike pence there certainly seemed to underplay what happened, suggesting that the violence was quelled and the capitol was secured after hours. >> this is not like opinion, this is a matter of fact. it's the time line. and republicans will tell you that as well as democrats that were there. his life was endangered. he was chased out. he had secret service rushing him and hiding his family when donald trump found out about that, i don't know the exact time, 2:23 in the afternoon or something, he, then knowing pence was in danger, then tweeted something to stir up the crowds who were already chanting "hang mike pence." this wasn't a little misunderstanding, this wasn't. you say potato, i say po-tato. this is about life and death. and he wants to get elected into a position? he wants the approval of people

so badly he just lets that slip by? >> and president trump was watching cable coverage. he was fully aware of what was going on. he was fielding calls including from kevin mccarthy asking him to call office supporters. we've seen the surveillance footage of the vice president and his family being rushed by secret service agents down a hallway and out to a secure room just seconds before some of the rioters reached there. his life was in danger and he is choosing to dismiss it and play up his relationship with donald trump. to this day he said we talked frequently. mike pence had a heart procedure and didn't tell trump ahead of time. pence now saying they're speaking often. but it's clear again just that the grip that trump still has on the party and how those, even those who clearly have reason to break from him refuse to stay. >> who needs a job that bad? who needs the approval of any political party that badly?

who, who? i don't understand. >> apparently mike pence. >> and a lot of other republicans. >> i mean, i think what's important here, too, is that this is all coming at a time is getting back out there to do campaign-style rallies. corey lewandowski said it's going to be early 2015 style. he's going to be dictating the message not just for the rest of the party around january 6th but perpetuating this kind of inherent culture war for the republican voters, which will kind of set the agenda for 2022. still ahead, mike pence's half-hearted denunciation of the capitol riot will probably come as little relief to the officers still struggling in the aftermath of that attack. we will hear from one of them who says he thought he was going to die that day. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ♪♪ ♪ na na na na

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♪♪ u.s. capitol police sergeant is speaking out for the first time about his experience on january 6th after republicans blocked the formation of an independent commission to investigate the attack. here's part of what he told cnn. >> trump said, we will listen to you, we are here to take over the capitol, we are here to hang mike pence. they thought we were there for that, and we weren't. so they turned against us. it was very scary because i thought i was going to lose my life right there. i could hear my fellow officers screaming, the agony. all i could think was we can't

let these people in. there's going to be slaughter. the country that i love, i came in that i had sacrificed so much don't care about us, and they don't. >> first-hand account from a police officer inside the building, and echos from other officers we've heard from pleading for their lives while they were being beaten by some of those rioters. jim, does any of this, i guess a rhetorical question at this point, change the calculus by any single republican about whether or not we ought to look back at what happened on january 6th? will they not even hear the testimony of a police officer who feared for his life? several police officers who thought they were going to die that day, and not at least have pause about doing something to review the events of that day? >> i have a hunch you know the

answer to that, willie. and even like that conversation. i know you guys aren't surprised with what mike pence is doing. but even when we express any kind of surprise, is a little off base. because the republican party has spoken. like, they want to be like trump. they want to please trump. i think, if anything, like, yes, struggling mightily to be heard and no one was paying attention to him. but the people who do pay attention to him are anybody who wants to be elected. and you talk to any republican or even increasingly democrats, they assume republicans could win back the house or will win back the house in 2022. trump's going to claim credit, it's going to be a lot of trumpian candidates. and now it's going to be institutionalized. every single person who's running, wants to run, could win, could win in a republican party is going to be a lot like donald trump. it's not going to be anything like rob portman or mitt romney or paul ryan.

that's gone, that's 5% of the party, at least in terms of people who run, get elected, increasingly fund the party. so what pence is doing and what every other republican is doing is not surprising. i think you'll see more of it and not less of it. and what's interesting is it's happening at the very time trump is really having a hard time breaking through. he shut down that blog because no one was paying attention to it. we thought we had a company run the data to figure out how many people were paying attention to his blog. and it was about as many people as read the average story on "the tennesseean," which is the newspaper of nashville. but he still has all this power over pence. >> he has so much power over mike pence, over kevin mccarthy, and alexi pointing out, they're going back to rallies. how is it possible we should cover this as republicans who

intend to participate in a democracy at this point when they're flying in the face of it in the way they behave, in the way they're treating january 6th, in the way they're following this man who was a many wannabe dictator. >> you see this happening around the world but especially here which is an authoritarian anti-democracy type movement. and i have a question. you've talked about everybody running as a trumpist, jim. are there going to be some republicans who try to regain control of the party and run not necessarily as anti-trump republicans but as paul ryan type republicans? >> a few in swing districts but not at the national level. i had this conversation with three different people yesterday who just pined the days of the republican party of old. it might return in five or ten years, it's not returning in

five months. there's no evidence of that. look at who gets attention to this day, tucker, ben shapiro, mike pence, donald trump. none of those figures are getting the money, are getting the recognition, are getting the following. and those things are essential ingredients if you want to win in national politics. the party does not care fundamentally about deficits. i don't even know that the vast majority of what you would call the base of the party right now cares that much about ideology. it's much more of an identity statement, a cultural statement, that i would say has been more solidified post election, more solidified. and almost no one saw that coming. everyone assumed january 6th was this watershed moment, should've been, it's insane, historically insane what happened. and, yet, almost instantly at a moment where you would think is unthinkable, everyone snaps back like that, not just to the norm

but to the trump norm. it is institutionalized. it is a fantasy that is somehow going to return to the way it was. coming up, what is bill de blasio's legacy as mayor of new york city? he joins the set to talk about the comeback from covid, crime, and the race to replace him. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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how many of you would like to have mayor de blasio's endorsement for you as mayor of new york city? please raise your hands. mr. yang, one. ♪♪ >> he's from the wd children's school of good government. i want all the money. i like it. >> primary debate for mayor of new york city. and joining us now the mayor of new york city bill de blasio. >> mr. mayor, you're back. >> it's a tough crowd. >> let me tell you. >> this is a very tough crowd. >> that's just another day in new york city. can we just celebrate? we're back, everyone together around the table. this really feels great. this is another symbol, another sign of the comeback in new york city, it really is.

and i predict summer of new york city is going to be the most amazing summer. >> summer of love. >> it's going to be -- people are going to come from all over the country to this city. i predicted brooklyn nets victory, ladies and gentlemen, national champions first time a team with the name brooklyn to win a championship in over 60 years. there's your prediction for the day. >> the 1955 brooklyn dodgers, very well could be right. >> they've got a tough series right now against the bucks. brooklyn all the way. >> so you're telling me the atlanta hawks beat the knicks and now they're going to beat the nets? >> no one's beating the nets, that's what i'm telling you. [ laughter ] >> do you agree with that? >> they got the best talent in the league. i think if they beat the bucks they win it all. >> i think we can all just agree and be happy that the lakers are out and can't win again. >> nets are terrific, but the bucks are really good, too. i agree with that, whoever wins

this series is probably favored to win the whole things. >> yankees red sox, big weekend. are you going? >> i'm busy this weekend. [ laughter ] i happen to have a very booked schedule. but i'll go to city field any time. there is no conflict there, god bless. >> okay, let's get serious. >> okay. so scott stringer was here. >> he's not a huge fan. >> i'm crushed. [ laughter ] >> he said you should clear the subways right now of the homeless. why don't you do that today? sfrmgts first of all let's put things in perspective. this city after what we went through has just made a remarkable comeback already. we have beat back covid in this city, covid levels 95% lower than they were on january 1st. it was ground zero, it's now one of the safest places in the country. most new yorkers, i can now say a majority of new yorkers have gotten at least one dose of the

vaccine. that effort's growing. so, to bring back this city, get the healthcare part, get the vaccine right, that's happening. now on top of that we've got to address some of the long-term problems that this city and every city faces. the way to do that is with what has worked historically, bringing police and community together that's neighborhood policing that worked for years to draw down crime, created a deeper bond between police and community, and homeless outreach. we've gotten literally thousands of people off the streets in the last seven years into shelter. >> we've talked when i had you on, we always talked about the declining crime numbers, before the pandemic, lowest number since the 1950s. they didn't even have records going back to how safe new york city was before the pandemic. but i have heard, again, from new york residents, time and again, while crime rates were extraordinarily low, homelessness has remained a problem that's plagued your

administration from day one. why is that? what do you think the problem has been with homelessness, and what could you have done better? what does the next mayor need to do? >> this is very bluntly an area where along the way i've recognized things we could have done better. >> i gotcha. what is the next mayor, whoever it is, need to do? >> homeless outreach. people have a journey as individuals, there but for the grace of god, you if you talk to homeless folks they were giving a, quote/unquote, normal life, something went wrong, they descended down to life on the street. our job is to bring them right back up. it can be done but it takes very patient intense outreach. it takes understanding what each person needs to come in off the streets. maybe they need mental health services, maybe they need to have an alcohol or addiction problem addressed. maybe they need to be reconnected to family. but this extraordinary outreach from outreach workers actually

works. and even during the pandemic we got homeless people off the streets, but it's repeat, repeat, repeat. it's patient-intense, and that works. >> we've had scott stringer and catherine garcia yesterday talking about putting mental health professionals to work alongside new york police department officers. ms. garcia suggested having a ride-along, a social worker go along with cops in their car to address whatever the situation would be. i think a police officer would tell you they get a 9-1-1 call, there's a domestic dispute, somebody's waving a gun, they don't have time for a social worker to talk them down. so how does social work, how does mental health fit into the new york police department? >> very important question. there's a separation between a situation that could be violent, which is not a place to put a social worker in the middle of for everyone's safety or a situation where we can handle it with civilians with healthcare

personnel and social workers. we've already made a major change in new york city where we now send on emergency calls more and more civilians if we don't think there's going to be a violent situation. >> so what is that kind of a call? >> if the call comes in and it's someone with a mental health challenge or crisis and there's no evidence of violence on the scene or a weapon, then increasingly we'll be sending civilians out to deal with it. >> the numbers were low last month. blockbuster numbers this month. the u.s. economy added 559,000 jobs, the latest sign of the strengthening recovery as vaccinations rise and covid restrictions ease nationwide, according to "the washington post." the unemployment rate dropped from 6.1 to 5.8%. really bad numbers last month, people were wondering what changes needed to be made. much stronger number this month. >> yeah, it is, joe. and i think it goes to what you're talking about with the mayor. i mean, it's about leisure and

hospitality. that was the biggest jump in jobs. just walk around new york city. new york city does feel back a month and a half, two months ago, restaurants were empty except maybe a little bit outside. the hotels were mostly empty. that is all coming back, and that is happening nationwide, joe, and that's one of the reasons 559,000 jobs okay, a little bit below what wall street expected. but forget about the expectation because the numbers were all over the map. literally throw a dart, hit a number, that's the way. look at the averages over the past three months, yeah, last month was weak, 1.65 million jobs created over the past three months. look at the longer-term trend. the unemployment rate coming down, and, joe, the best news of all, is that average hourly earnings rose 0.5%. that doesn't sound like a lot, i know, but it is. people that are working are getting paid more to do it. more money in people's pockets. >> amen. >> brian, thank you so much, really appreciate that update. and that really is, that's two

great things happening right now. people are going back to work. but also not only getting more people going into the job market, but salaries are going up. and you see some of these national chains running 15, $16 an hour. covid's going to be transformational in a lot of ways, but it seems like wages going up is one way. >> and that national number, you see it in plain sight in new york city. you see it in the restaurants, you see it in the stores opening up. and i think a lot of it goes back to getting people vaccinated, they feel safe and they go shopping and eat. the mask guidance from the cdc a month ago said you don't need a mask inside if you've been vaccinated. where do you see new york in terms of this comeback and what work still needs to be done? >> i think it's important that we have to put covid behind us in our minds. it's almost over, it's time to go to the future, that's why we're opening schools full strength in september, no

questions asked, no more remote learning. it's time to go back to normal. >> and, by the way, that's going to be hard. you talk about people's journey. are you still seeing some people in new york, i've been in florida, you know -- >> a little different. >> little laze fair down there, but there are still people that are on that journey. a guy on twitter, i didn't tell him but i hug everybody that comes on set. no, but this is all a journey, isn't it? >> it is, and i think sometimes we fight yesterday's war a little bit too much. because today in new york city, 0.81% covid positivity, the lowest since the beginning of the pandemic, and going lower all the time. so let's get our mind -- >> can you guys believe that? can you think back, jonathan,

rev, all new yorkers here, can you guys think back to march and april of last year and what you guys have been through and where the city is now? >> well, the day that there were no covid deaths. we're thinking about the refrigerated trucks outside the hospital, the field hospital in central park, the graves that were being dug. >> the constant ambulance sirens. >> but new yorkers get this victory because we need to new yorkers we're going to ask you to sacrifice, we're going to ask you to do something tough, socially distance, shelter in place, wear a mask, change your life, they did it. and then we said go out and get vaccinated and now 8.4 million vaccinations have been given in this city. people did this. every vaccination is a human being making that decision to show up, and a healthcare hero there to give them that vaccination. that human equation has happened 8.4 million times. so in the end the victory goes

to the people of this city. it didn't happen by magic. this is what gives me faith in the future of new york city, the strength and resiliency of our people. they fought through everything. they created even in the midst of crisis, and that's who new yorkers are. >> but a defining issue of the campaign now is crime and shooting. we've certainly seen a real rise in that in recent months. and, in fact, there was suggestion by stringer and others that police are not doing enough to solve these crimes. a, what's fueling the uptick in the violence, but, b -- >> jonathan, i have a word for that. that is called ignorance. that is a lack of understanding what the nypd does every day. the nypd in the midst of this crisis kept doing everything to fight back crime. we had the highest level of gun arrests a few months ago since 1996. we've seen extraordinary effort. and the nypd's gone through so much, but they keep coming back. >> scott stringer, when he blames the cops, is he being

ignorant? >> indeed. first of all we went through a global pandemic. no jobs, no schools, no houses of worship, 2020 we still don't even fully understand the extent of what happened here. but now we see nypd is rebonding with community, major game takedowns have happened and will happen. this is only the second week in new york city that the courts have been up and running fully since the beginning of the pandemic. now we're finally having consequences again for crime. so, all of these pieces are coming together. but for scott stringer to say the nypd is not doing their job, clearly he does not understand what's happening. >> he said if he was elected he's going to get rid of commissioner shea. what do you think of that? >> i think commissioner shea helped us get through the worst crisis in the history of new york city. so you can agree or disagree on any decision. but give him and the 35,000 men and women of the nypd credit for

taking on the hardest mission that's ever been asked of them in the history of the city and often with many officers home sick with covid and their families fighting covid, and we have to fight to get them vaccinated. you'll remember the state of new york did not want to allow us to vaccinate first responders. it's been a very tough journey. but the nypd and the whole city is clearly coming back. >> let's go back to the beginning of the segment. what happened when you have all of the candidates running to succeed you saying they didn't want your endorsement, but andrew yang, who everybody argues is not a new yorker. now i remember in '13 when you ran and you were against stop and frisk, you were pre-k. and even against a guy i knew all my life, supported the progressive agenda, and we did get pre-k, and stop and frisk did go down and crime went down.

you ran for re-election almost unopposed. so why are we looking at candidates coming behind you? is it political opportunism? when i get guys sitting there saying they would do part bloomberg but no part of de blasio, what are we looking at here? >> come on, man. >> in a democratic primary. >> rev, do you remember that song from the '60s, "games people play"? everyone's trying to be the changed candidate. here's what we should not change. we have the greatest recovery going on in the history of new york city. we have pre-k for every child. we're about to have 3-k for every child, universal that's coming in now too. we pushed down crime before a global pandemic six years in a row while bonding police and community and making major reforms. but reforming policing and public safety need to walk hand in hand. so i think what these candidates are doing is trying to act like they're the brand new shiny other leading brand, if you will. but what the people of this city

want is to continue the progress that we've made and build on it. this is what i hear all the time from folks. people are proud of the recovery of new york city. they don't want folks saying new york city didn't do something right here. they're proud that new york city came back so strong. they're proud of our vaccination effort. they agree that it was right to open schools. this city opened schools when most cities didn't dare. >> and i think there are things that we wanted to see more done with the garner case and other things. but i'm talking about the general flow of the city to compare it to where giuliani and bloomberg was, that's why i don't get democratic candidates having that position. there was another song called "backstabbers." [ laughter ] >> i just got to correct you, i'm sorry. if you're going to talk about the spinners, i just have to ask so we get the decade right. spinners from 1975. o.j.'s "backstabbers" -- >> that's the only word,

encyclopedic knowledge. >> invoking michael bloomberg in a democratic primary, watch your step. because in the end people did not like the fact that elections were bought by michael bloomberg, and they responded very strongly after michael bloomberg. they did not like stop and frisk and they responded very strongly. they did not like a city dominated by landlords and developers. so that concept is long gone. i won't comment on any individual candidate. i will say a candidate invoking michael bloomberg does not understand -- >> were you surprised when andrew yang invoked michael bloomberg? >> i was in a democratic primary. i worked with bloomberg on some things. i'm not just totally anti-bloomberg. but i'm saying in a political grace democratic primary to think you're scoring points going bloomberg and attacking de blasio. and when i disagree with the mayor, i called the mayor and

said i think we should do more on trying to get rid of the guy with or something like that. but the general flow of where he went suddenly in line with democratic voters than a bloomberg who i had worked with on something and a giuliani. and that's why i'm saying are we looking at just rank opportunism here when you're looking at a debate and you've got eight candidates and seven of them are saying you will not want the endorsement of the sitting democratic mayor, what's going on here? >> by the way, i corrected somebody who corrected you. "backstabbers" was '72. >> why don't you take the weekend and think about that? >> a little before my time. >> we believe in redemption, joe. >> when we get a break can we play "mighty love" by the spinners? >> we should ask him about his next act because he's so positive. everybody has a next act. there's always a way to reinvent

yourself. you could run for president. >> i need to know my value. >> here's an example. one of the graduates of being mayor of new york city, let's take a look. >> i've been sleeping on my pillows for some time. i love them. they are simply the very best pillows ever made. but i just found out that they also have a wide assortment of other incredible products like their mattress toppers, sheets, and slippers and more. >> so let me ask you, will you do mr. pillow ads? >> i have to say that's not my role model. >> i felt a cringy feeling up and down my body. no. >> been feeling that way for a while. >> mr. pillow. >> we've been feeling that way for quite a while with rudy giuliani. >> it's really good to see you, mayor bill de blasio. >> and you are predicting -- huh? >> an nba championship for brooklyn. >> brooklyn new york first time since the 1950s, brooklyn will

lead the way. and, look, as you see today new york city's coming back. this is really important that you guys hear this. i'm not blowing smoke. it's so important for people to see that we're back together and it works and we're safe. >> i'm going to hug you after this. >> don't provoke trae young next time. >> one time only, but the knicks won the next day. put that in the record. >> when i was trashing the red sox to the mayor he made an excellent point because we have a common cause because the real enemy is the tampa bay rays. >> mighty. >> we've been talking about the rays every day. but the fact that they're not on the east coast, western florida. >> i appreciate you coming in. we've got much more "morning joe" ahead. but first, willie, who do you have on "sunday today"?

>> julian moore, oscar winner. she's in a new stephen king series based on his novel "lece. was on set for every episode. it's on apple tv. great conversation about her incredible career this sunday on "sunday today" on nbc. >> i read the stand, it was extraordinary. i didn't realize, and i remembered that scene in the lincoln tunnel, that horrifying scene in the lincoln tunnel. i forgot that that was a pandemic, it killed everybody in the stand, right? >> there you go. fiction, it all ties together. [ laughter ] >> we'll be right back. >> going to break with "the spinners." ♪♪

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before the age of 50 in your life, was there a time when you kind of questioned everything and didn't feel -- wanted to give up? >> absolutely, many times. i mean, to get made up every day, having to deal with bad producers, having to deal with bad bosses, not making the money that you needed to make. >> are you describing my career or yours? i have been in television for 35 years. >> oh, my god. >> that was fun. >> maria salazar's so great. you know, there were a lot of great surprises for you, mika. you never met maria before.

>> "forbes" 50 over 50. >> yes, congresswoman from south florida. >> yeah. >> you guys, that was an incredible interview. >> i sat down and she was ready for battle until we figured it out, this is a good thing we're doing together and she's lovely. >> so you had this list, and "forbes" does the 50 over 50 and there's an article in there by kamala about inclusive capitalism. >> that's the issue, right, we revealed this first issue ever of 50 over 50, the diverse entrepreneur leaders 50 over 50. but it's tied to the capitalism initiative, a source for societal change to ensure everyone has equal access and equal chance to achieve success. here now to tell us more about that, chief content officer of "forbes" media and editor of

"forbes," randall lane. great to have you back. >> randall, congratulations. jonathan lemire wants to turn 50 so he can be on this list. >> nope! >> there's a complicating factor on there. >> a complicating factor. >> oh, my god! >> there's always hope. >> randall, we have been bringing up the point this past week about how every one of these women are trail blazers because this is a real revolution. even ten years ago, women didn't have a seat at the corporate boards, the way they do now. one running corporations weren't h, what running economies, and, man, what a change over ten years. >> and it's so important because the entire american system relies on everybody buying it through the idea that we all have an equal opportunity. we don't expect an equal outcome. we don't want an equal outcome. we proved in the 20th century it

doesn't work. capitalism works. but it only works if everybody buys into the idea they have an equal chance. so this whole issue is devoted to this idea and the 50 over 50 list is the epitome of that, which is that a group that too often feels overlooked and doesn't have that seat at the table that we're celebrating them and creating moments that say that their time is right now and they're making it happen. joe, just like you said ten years ago, you didn't see it as much and right now we're experiencing a moment and this crystallizes that. >> it really is a moment. reverend al, it's not just over 50, it's women over 60, women over 70, it's women over 80, and they're not stopping. >> and the unique part about this, and i wish randall and you would address it, is we seemed ton trending to young people, and not deal with the fact people over 50, women over 50, are really the ones that set a lot of where the culture is, business is and i see in this list even the politics.

so even though it may not appear trendy, it is really the ones that set the boundaries the way we are. >> the real influencers, randall. talk about that. and. >> we are seeing that -- this list, the incoming we've got, we have somebody like ginsburg, a very successful hollywood writer and producer. at 50 she basically lost her job. there was a writer strike. she had been behind "highlander," "nikita" and all of a sudden she's over 50 and has to find something else to do. now because of what happened in the last decade, letting everybody have a chance if they have an idea she could plug into the world, she did $60 million in sales last year and she called us because on wednesday she's sitting there having coffee, she sees her name on "morning joe," and she spits her coffee out basically, and she said her phone has been ringing off the hook, this is a game changer. the idea we can now recognize

this. the idea we can now bring these people together, we can bring change right now. the goal is take this cultural moment and what we need to do is create a moment and that's what we're try 00ing to do here, crystallize that move forward. >> we are. the incoming, as you mentioned, randall, is so remarkable that we actually have a few more lists coming up in the next three months. and this is going to be annual. talk about what's next. >> we literally, mika, we said we got so much -- we got so much incoming. we had over 10,000 people applied. we put 2,500 people through due diligence and so many people coming up saying, why didn't i make the list? it wasn't because they're not exceptional. we only had 50 spots. so we're opening it next month for another 50, focus on impact, people making differences in law, policy, philanthropy, visionaries, people in tech, in the arts. after that in september we're

going to come out with another 50 but follow the money. follow the money, find the power. and then we will bring them all together and we will make that official today, we will have our first 50 over 50 gathering, a 50 over 50 summit, where we will have all of these amazing women in one place to kind of create that change, create that community and make this so it's not something that we do just this year, mika, as you said but something that becomes a community, becomes a movement, becomes a force for change for good for this country. >> that is exciting. >> couldn't be more proud to be working on this with you, randall. >> your leadership, exceptional. joe, willie the backup. [ laughter ] amazing. >> randall, thank you very much. >> and congratulations to both of you. >> and i'm glad i was congratulated for my important role in this process. and i'm red sox/yankees this weekend. biggest series in june. >> joe biden turned 70, by the

way. >> yes! >> and this will be fun. see you in the bronx. >> let's do it. >> and we have to be concerned about the homeless that will be here. >> exactly. >> so wonderful to see you all in person and to be together. >> so great. >> yeah. it's great to spend all of this time with you. >> finally. 24/7. you learned to love, haven't you? >> yes! >> and it's been good for you. >> 24/7. >> they say i should send it to stephanie ruhle, who picks up the coverage right now. ♪♪ hey, there, i'm stephanie ruhle. it is friday, june 4th, jobs day. i'm here at the westfield garden safe plaza mall in my home state of paramus, new jersey. i'm pretty sure malls were invented here. over the last few weeks we've seen the country make its way back to some sense of