from the ground up, helping to make san francisco the greenest big city in america but we couldn't do it without you. thank you, san francisco. gracias, san francisco. -thank you. -[ speaks native language ] let's keep making a differene together. hi there, everyone. happy friday why it is 4:00 in the east. president biden today touting progress on the third straight month of significant gains in jobs. watch. >> no other major economy in the world is growing as fast as ours. no other major economy is gaining jobs as quickly as ours and none of the success is an accident. our plan is working. we're not going to let up now. we're going to continue to move on. >> white house chief of staff klain puts a finer point on it. tweeting this the three months

before pot us took office the economy created 600,000 new jobs a month. since then 530,000 jobs month. next question. agenda items including from republicans with 70% of all americans approving of the job president biden is going on coronavirus recovery, 62% approving the work on the economy. the most recent polling on president biden's infrastructure plan puts public support for it well over 50%. on the specific improvements the bill sets out to make up to 87% of respondents think they're a good idea and with republicans out in the country increasingly behind the biden agenda mitch mcconnell making clear his agenda is obstruction and stressing that 100% of the focus on blocking biden backed

proposals and gop obstruction of the policies in washington pales in comparison to what republicans are up to around the country. on abortion four states this year passed legislation banning abortion once a heart beat is detected. that's after about six weeks before many know they're pregnant. arkansas passing a near complete ban on abortion. on gun control state legislatures in tennessee, montana and iowa texas passed legislation allowing gun owners to carry weapons without a permit. several more states have passed laws cracking down on protesters. moves largely seem to take aim at the black lives matter movement. "the atlantic" writes today across the states and others republican legislators and governors operated as if they were programming a prime time lineup at fox news. jessica anderson the executive director of heritage action for america one of the country's

foremost grass roots conservative groups told me that right leaning voters have shifted efforts to red states realizing they have no chance to advance causes at the national level but the push she added reflects a determination to elevate social and cultal issues that donald trump stressed. voter suppression bills are racing through states. federal legislation is the only way to push back. but the filibuster being the one thing protect the gop's voter suppression extravaganza and joe manchin singled out by president biden this week isn't budging. here he is in an interview with garrett haake. >> reporter: i think some democrats want you to be with them on s 1 or getting rid of the filibuster. >> i represent the state of west

virginia. that's who hired me. the best possible fashion i can and i won't be a situation to placate people that want different things. it is the people that know me. i'm not changing. so for them to expect me to be something different it's not who i am. >> the manchin republican collusion increasingly holding up president biden's widely popular agenda is where we start with some of the favorite reporters and friends. in west virginia correspondent garrett haake. also with us politico white house editor and contributor sam stein and donna edward, a "the washington post" columnist and a msnbc contributor is with us. garrett, tell me about joe manchin's view as not just being singled out by the president this week but really being the person holding up legislation that has wide support from the

american public. >> reporter: he's the first hurdle for that legislation if we're talking about voting rights because of course democrats would need to get to 50, maybe get to 60 if they don't do away with filibuster. you heard it from manchin. he thinks this works for him in west virginia. this is a state that donald trump won more than comfortably twice now. a state where manchin is the last democrat playing in this sand box and i think he will trust his own judgment here and facing pressure from progressives that will only grow. not just on voting rights where he is the only democratic senator who doesn't support the for the people act but we could see an interesting development on infrastructure. he also told me he's not willing to go with just a democratic package on that. not willing to go with reconciliation. wants to see bipartisan talks continue and he sees the senate now operating the smoothest he has seen it in ten years in the

time he's been here and thinks it can work in a bipartisan basis. one of very, very few people in the senate who feel that way. but if he digs in and as you well know the senate is a lot of free agents, especially folks like manchin as a former governor, could be hard to move him off that line in time to do anything that biden wants to get done before midterm season. >> what is he thinking is smooth about blocking an investigation into the 1/6 insurrection? he like that is? >> reporter: i asked him exactly this question. what have you seen in the last six months that makes you think this can work? he pointed to the asian-american anti-hate bill. but the january 6 commission blocked. even the anti-china competitiveness bill negotiated and gone through regular order for months just not moved so

that is a very low bar that i think manchin sees as having been cleared here when not much else is happening there. >> look. donna, garrett puts it perfectly. a low bar of passing anti-hate legislation and those are the kinds of things that passed with everybody supporting them in both party. this is a ludicrous standard for saying it's working. i want to read something that michelle goldberg writes about the filibuster. i think people don't appreciate what it is. it is not in the constitution. not a law. this is michelle goldberg in "the new york times." when the senate cleaning up the rule book felt of a rule to allow senators to end a filibuster adopted in 1917. the proportion is reluis r deuced to three fifths in '75. it encouraged extremism. it was a favorite tool of pro

slavery senators before the civil war. we may be living through a brief time before democracy is strangled for a generation. they could save us by breaking the filibuster and pass new voting rights legislation but they prefer not to. i had this conversation with david jolly yesterday and i promise you if the parties were reversed the republicans wouldn't think twice about having a standard that maybe all legislation based on the big lie, the big lie now undergirds the violent extremism threat in america, behind 380 voter suppression laws, republicans wouldn't think twice about abandoning the filibuster to legislate around something is a threat if the roles were reversed. do you think the democrats have the stomach to do that? >> let's be clear. look at what republicans did. they rammed through judges when

donald trump was president. they violated they should own rules when it came to making decisions about whether a supreme court nominee could be proposed while there was an election afoot. they passed a tax bill that was not even paid for violating their own conservative pay for rules. and they have repeatedly, mitch mcconnell in particular, he has said i'm going to stop it all. so i think democrats need to start playing the same kind of hard ball. and joe manchin and kristin sinema are wrong on the filibuster. it doesn't impose bipartisanship, doesn't impose what did sinema say? better behavior or something in the senate. that's ridiculous. mostly in the 20th century it was used to enforce segregation,

to stand in the gap for jim crow laws, to block civil rights and voting rights legislation and it's a sordid history of this thing that's a rule. it's time to get rid of it and i think they are playing on the wrong ball field here. >> donna, do you think there's appreciation for what's happening, for what is written about? we spend time here on the voting rights legislation because they had this hallmark of being written by a think tank in washington. mother jones discovered the tape and that's what happened. they were drafted by heritage action, sent out to the states. 22 have passed and become law but that's not it. they're making abortion essentially illegal. they are ban and criminalizing protest with a first amendment question if it makes it way to higher courts. is there an appreciation for the

speed and the extremity of the way republican legislatures are governing? >> i'm not sure there is. democrats have a habit of not paying attention to what is happening down ballot in these state legislative races and gubernatorial races and from 2014 until now thousands of legislative seats have been lost to republicans. republicans have taken over more governor's houses than you can even name so i think we have to double down especially with '22 coming up with paying attention to the state legislative seats. we don't have control over redistricting in so many states because we lost legislative seats. so this is a real problem for us and the result is those republicans realize they can't accomplish anything in washington really and so they take it to the states and the

state legislatures and democrats in states like texas are screaming for national democrats to get on the same field, to protect them, to pass voting rights legislation and not to have other democrats like manchin and others standing in the way of that. >> sam, i want to show you something. let's just play it. we'll talk about it on the other side. this is a dallas, texas, valedictorian speech. >> i have dreams. and hopes. and ambitions. every girl graduating today does. and we have spent our entire lives working towards our future. and without oush input and without our consent our control over that future has been stripped away from us. i am terrified that if my contraceptives fail, i am terrified that if i am raped,

then my hopes and aspirations and dreams and efforts for my future will no longer matter. >> there's the message. there's the messenger and what republicans are doing. from coast to coast. paxton is exactly who the republicans in every state including texas want to hide the ballot box, hide the ballots from. they don't want her voting or exercising the power. this is exactly what's happening in the country today. >> yeah. donna hit the nail on the head here which is a lot of the activity because we are stagnated in the senate, the activity is taking place in the state houses and you see this on a host of different fronts. gun policy. abortion rights. voting legislation. and so on. there are very limited ways in which democrats can push back upon this. part of this is because of

simple me neglect for down ballot races in the obama years and democrats performed poorly down ballot and could get worse with redistricting and what you are seeing is the focus of the conservative movement shifting away from the federal landscape into the state landscape where they can push the provisions and they have the backstop in this case of a conservative supreme court that may be more likely to uphold abortion restrictions in certain state houses because it's now a conservative majority. it is a highly effective way to enact conservative policy that doesn't mean that much on congressional members or controlling congressional chambers. >> i can hear sort of a -- my twitter feed filling up with all is lost. all is not lost. the democrats control the house,

the white house, the senate. >> right. >> why not use the levers of power the same way republicans used theirs? >> there are places where there are obvious limitations. on the abortion restrictions in the state. you could pass theoretically a law through congress that codifies roe v. wade but again it would be difficult to overcome the filibuster and comes down to that. absent that, it goes to the supreme court. if the supreme court likely confirms it with conservative majority there's not much biden can do and other areas biden has powers and is it hard or soft power? by that i mean can he push for the removal of the filibuster? the soft power is persuasive. can he make forceful arguments? to rally to the agenda?

he's using the powers of the presidency with manchin and those to come to their senses and all this is happening while things in the state houses move in a conservative direction. so yeah. you're right. we are not powerless but there are certain restrictions to overcome, too. >> this point, you know, garrett, used to be in a white house all you had to do to get -- i worked in a republican white house obviously but to get bipartisan support make sure it's majority support. every one of the president's legislative proposals have upwards of 50 to 60 and infrastructure higher with support. is there any concern on manchin's part at sort of being a one half man blockade to that popular agenda? >> reporter: i don't think that he would agree that he is that on infrastructure. at least at this point. i think he is trying to clear some space for the colleague to

continue to negotiate with the white house. on the voting rights package that's a different question. i said what do you say to folks in texas passing these voting rights restrictions? he said basically, keep working. we'll work up here in a bipartisan way. i keep going back to this but there's a freelance element to being the last democrat standing in a very red state. manchin will trust his gut here. and you know, it's called politics and doesn't georgia but that's the way he sees it but it could make him a lonely person on capitol hill if we get to that point and we talk about the filibuster. there's another joe in washington that doesn't want to get rid of the filibuster and that's the president of the united states joe biden and as long as he stays on the side of the argument it provides coverage for joe manchin to stay

where he is. >> donna, what is this sort of do to unity in the democratic party? so far this president has achieved both a transformational sort of policy outlay. the covid relief package was big and ambitious. infrastructure so far although i think some democrats are losing patience with what garrett is talking about, what is sort of this refusal to reexamine the filibuster or filibuster reform for certain pieces of legislation do to democratic enthusiasm? >> i think right now as you said the president is a popular president and he certainly is a popular president within the democratic party. i think that there's been a lot of latitude begin to the president to negotiate if he can a bipartisan deal on something like infrastructure. but that does come a point where you might be giving away too

much. and you can't let the minority party control as if it's the majority. so i think democrats right now have a lot of patience with the president and certainly support for his agenda but i think that patience is going to wear thin if it looks like republicans are basically ruling the roost. >> sam, your thoughts about sort of a current state of democratic -- not support. the president has a lot of support but patience. >> yeah. we just did a piece on this at politico this morning where we talked to a number of progressive activists, i think over a dozen. one thing is that the white house is very, very mindful of make sure that progressives feel heard and are in the loop. it is a contrast to the obama years. they recognize the perils of not keeping them in the loops and the results is to this point

progressive entities given biden a ton of space to pursue the negotiations. we see very little pushback, almost nonexistent ad campaigns urging him to move on and beginning to change and a growing frustration with the actists and they say they're negotiating against themselves and biden continued the conversations and made concessions and no tangible republican support and not just worried what happens with the infrastructure although they are but worried what it means for the legislation calendar. if the noeshs continues through july there's no chance a bill will get done before the august recess and then the other side suddenly you block out major other legislative initiatives. anything on immigration, ethics reform. those are pushed back, back until suddenly you are in the midst of the midterm elections and that's where the real anxiety is.

not so much oh my god he is negotiating away tangible gains on the infrastructure but all of oush priorities will be pushed off entirely. >> garrett haake, you have the interview with the person of the hour. thank you for joining us and the great questioning of senator manchin and for starting us off today. great to see you. sam and donna are sticking around with us longer. a stinging rebuke from facebook citing a threat to public safety. donald trump banned from the social networks. now if only congressional republicans could do the same. plus after a two-year court fight the former white house counsel made the way to capitol hill to temp about what he knows about the former president's efforts to obstruct the mueller investigation. has this shielded everyone? what will the justice department do next? the a mystery in the sky. a new report con feuds r cluds uf -- concludes ufos.

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the ex-president is suspended. facebook out with a time line for the suspension of former president trump confirming the ban to last two years. citing a risk to public safety. the decision in response to the ex-president's comments of the insurrection of january 6. facebook said it will reexamine the ban in january of 2023. we consider the need for it to be long enough to allow a safe

period of time after the acts of incitement, a deterrent to him and others from committing the severe violations in the future and to be proportionate to the gravity of the violation itself. he warns there will be quote a strict set of rapidly escalated sanctions triggered if he commits further violations in the future. today at the white house press secretary jen psaki likely speaking for many of us in response to the news. >> we learned a lot from president trump, the former president, over the last come of years about the behavior and how he uses the platforms. feels unlikely the zebra will change stripes over two year just we'll back. >> we're back with sam and donna. first the reaction to, facebook is really not out front in terms of regulating political speech.

this seems like a pretty aggressive ban and a pretty serious look at speech that incited a deadly insurrection. >> yeah. first off, my traditional disclosure, my wife works for facebook. so get that out of the way. >> thank you. >> i have no allegiance to the company at all. happy to criticize it. this -- obviously this ban is significant. people are kind of misunderstanding the significance of it. facebook was never a tool for trump to come out and use as a sort of media manipulator or a bull horn to put out a statement. he had twitter for this and used to have a blog. rip. that's no longer with us. facebook was really important for him to fund raise. this is where potentially small dollar donors are congregate and especially like someone trump. he doesn't have that for two

years. there is one way and a scenario this could work to trump's favor. he has now the ability to say, look, i'm being censored which is not the right term by a social media giant. he can rally people to his cause with that. the ban lifting would be conveniently around the time to be launching a primary bid for president. he could use the lifting of the ban and the return to facebook as a triumphant moment to rally people to the cause and then essentially raise money because they're all returning to the page at once and a small way to benefit him but otherwise it's a sharp slap on the wrist for bad behavior and potentially more to come. >> donna, look. i don't want to lose sort of the forest for the trees here. a social media company decided he was too dangerous to have access to their platform. to me this is a story about the

ineptitude of congress, the republicans in congress, to investigate an attack that for trump's role taken off of facebook. >> i don't understand why facebook didn't have enough to just ban him permanently. because the way that he used that platform was abusive and it incited a insurrection and i don't get that. fast forward. i think for the congress, again, something that was supposed to be bipartisan negotiated in the house giving all kinds of concessions couldn't get a january 6 commission out of the congress to investigate all of what happened and that would include on the social media platforms. i look to january 23 and i'm

saying what will happen between now and then where trump is going to do anything other than declare he is still the rightful president and that joe biden isn't legitimate? i think even that should be enough to not have him put back on these platforms. by the way, jen psaki -- >> go ahead. >> jen psaki speaks for me. >> sorry, donna. me, too. sam, here's the thing to me. the big lie either undergirds a terrorist threat to america or it doesn't and if it does it's speech that incites violence and won't amplify the president's response but it was rooted in the big lie that undergirds the deadly insurrection so to donna's point, what else has to happen to make these bans permanent? >> that's a good question. my understanding is facebook has a whole set of bylaws of

disinformation and incitement that will be triggered if trump is back on the platform. i'm not certain if for instance in the interim between now and january '23 if not on the platform and continuing that type of behavior to help or contribute to the continued expulsion from it. i think facebook might say it's brought back on the platform and make determinations. on the more important stuff, the forest if you will, the president continues to cite the idea that somehow he was the rightful winner of this election. it is a lie. it is inciteful for others and creating a real problem for the democracy. and it is undergirding a lot of the sort of tearing of a social fabric and a reason for facebook to toss him from the platform and whatrd to imagine a future

in which trump suddenly drops this. i mean it is almost impossible to imagine that and at that point facebook is going to have a real question on its hands. does it continue the ban or not? >> donna, it sort of gets to this circular natural of disinformation and bad faith actors. facebook is practically crying out for regulation. in the absence of frameworks agreed upon by lawmakers, that would be you, congress, the board's model of deliberation is a strong one that ensures important decisions are made in a transparent and you dirs a manner as possible. we want to be regulated? they say we continue to call for thoughtful regulation in the space. this is where coming back from the filibuster, this is where if

you can make an exception for laws that would protect the country against the big lie, as sam said, the big lie isn't going anywhere. the ex-president reiterated the big lie. the big lie again, either is or isn't the gravest threat to the domestic security. again, when you have facebook crying out to be regulated by the congress, you have another example of just how broken the system is and how corrupted at the highest levels it is by donald trump and his big lie. >> it is true but facebook is only crying out for some regulation. remember when -- >> right. >> when facebook testified before the congress they were very clear about what they thought the limited per view of congress is. that said, congress should put some rules in place that help

these companies have more authority when it comes to regulating this kind of activity. at the same time, though, if you just read the former president's statements that he releases you can imagine them as tweets, imagine them as facebook posts because that's how they're written. there is nothing, not one single thing about the former president's behavior that is changed except that he doesn't have these platforms. we will see more 0 of that on the road at the republican conventions and rallies. echoing the same things that he would be tweeting. >> sam, donna, we'll be braced for it. thank you for spending time with us today. it took a subpoena and years now of legal maneuvering but former white house counsel mcgahn testified to members of congress today about the

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i think he's being somewhat difficult but you'll see that when the transcript comes out. >> 15 minutes ago you said he was cooperative. >> he's cooperative some of the time. >> today former white house counsel don mcgahn testified behind closed doors to the house judiciary committee about the ex-president's efforts to

obstruct robert mueller's russia investigation. mcgahn who was the most quoted witness in the mueller report was expected to face questions about hitsz own revelations and that trump ordered mcgahn to fire mueller and then the appearance is a big deal and shift in part to the new administration after a two-year legal and political fight put up by the trump justice department to block a subpoena from mcgahn. joining us is democratic congresswoman dean of pennsylvania, a member of the judiciary committee. first, what was this? was it about reasserting congress' appropriate oversight role or a fact finding mission as part of an ongoing investigative proceeding? >> thank you for having me on. what i call it is a good day for democracy. as you reported it was april of 2019 that our committee the judiciary committee sent a subpoena to mr. mcgahn to come

before us and under the previous administration claiming a crazy blanket immunity he didn't come forward and then a long legal battle played itself out so i'm delighted that today he is in front of the commit tee, the testimony is continuing as we speak and he's bringing to life volume two of the mueller report, the turbulent times in the white house with the president obsessed over the invest and of course mueller's invest volume two of the attempts to obstruct justice by president trump. >> i've read that second volume a couple of times. i'm sure you have, as well. don mcgahn made a criminal case of obstruction of justice six instances of it. was there anything that enhances your understanding of why there wasn't a sort of preparation to

charge him once he left office on the part of the mueller probe? >> i think you probably know the terms of the agreement so i'm not able to tell you today what he's testifying to today at this moment and the agreement is to that he get it is transcribed version of his testimony today and can review it and then will be published but having read the volume two you know exactly what it is that he was involved in, how he had to fend often the pressure of the president to talk to rod rosenstein and to try to get him to oust mueller as special counsel so all of those things are coming to life from the mouth and the experience of mr. mcgahn who was the president's counsel. as you say he is the most often quoted in terms of cooperation with special counsel mueller and in terms of whether or not the

president wanting to be indicted remember the report said that it does not exonerate him. >> yeah. special counsel mueller's very brief, a man of few words but said if we could say he didn't commit a crime we would and then learned more in the course of the barr tenure that barr put the finger on the scale where former special counsel mueller called and complained. i understand you can't tell us about the testimony but do you have an enhanced understanding of what that obstruction invest was in realtime? from mcgahn's testimony and how it was distorted by ex-attorney general bill barr? >> i would say my insights are more into mr. mcgahn. more into the thinking of mr. mcgahn as he tried to perform the duties of special counsel and considered resigning the position and dealt with aides

around the president similarly pressured. so it's a much greater understanding of the man mcgahn and the pressures trying to serb the president. what i also think is important is this tells you something about what we need to do as a co-equal branch of government. we must not be stymied in the right and obligation of oversight. here we are at the former administration is the former administration. thankfully. i have a bill, the expedited subpoena compliance bill and a reason to make sure to bring it up in judiciary. that we pass it on the floor of the house and the senate passes it. and that the president signs it. so that no one, no bad acting administration like the former administration can stymie oversight of congress. >> there is a real sort of fatigue with the dynamic that trump turned out to be like

houdini. special counsel investigation is something he managed to evade accountability from. he was impeached twice and aquitted both times. are there reforms that you would like to see to make the executive branch more responsive to those specific proceedings, to special counsel investigation, an impeachment trial, investigation in the house or trial in the senate? >> yes. we have a package of bills in judiciary. i think intelligence also has important pieces of legislation for reform so that this kind of stymieing and stonewalling cannot happen again and we could get another administration that's a bad actor, especially when you watch the nature of mcconnell and mccarthy not wanting to learn what happened on 1/6. i used to ask what are they are afraid of and now i ask what are they covering up. >> right. >> we have to exert the rights as a co-equal branch of

government and obligation of oversight and there's a lot to do based on a very bad set of actions by the former president. >> you're not alone. liz cheney has that same question, what are they covering up? we would like to ask you to stick around for questions on that topic of 1/6. is that all right with you? >> yes, thank you. >> okay. still to come for us, despite being hunted by trump supporters, mike pence's down playing trump's role on january 6 and we hear from those officers in their own words hunting down by the same trump supporters. that story is next. next

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( sighs wearily ) here, i'll take that! ( excited yell ) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one-gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health! ( abbot sonic ) as i said that day, january 6 was a dark day in the history of the united states capitol. president trump and i have spoken many times. since we left office. and i don't know if we'll ever see eye to eye on that day. but i will always be proud of what we accomplished for the american people over the last four years. >> former vice president mike pence last night calling january 6 a dark day but finishing that thought with praise of the ex-president. seemingly brushing off the whole hang mike pence thing, the chants that were shouted by

insurrectionists. following public pressure for them to do that from the former boss and reject biden's win and had zero authority to do. which authority to do. meanwhile, law enforcement is in anguish over just what they went through, and what was an insurrection and what was behind it. here is a capital police officer. he was injured that day. >> they kept saying trump sent me. we won't listen to you. we are here to take over the capitol. we are here to hang mike pence. they thought we were there for them. and we weren't. so they turned against us. i thought i was going to lose my life right there. >> i thought i was going to lose my life. wow, joining us conversation for

the first time, initiative i have reporter f nbc 4 washington, scott mac farland, congresswoman madeline dean is still here. you have had incredible reporting on this. talk about what's happening in the investigation, and what really now feels like a standoff between the men that gave with their bodies in injuries and trauma, and a congress that doesn't want to get to the bottom of it with the bipartisan commission? >> good afternoon, nicole, we have some news to break. the federal government, the justice department has kind of shifted the goal post late this afternoon increasing the estimate for how many defendants there could be from january 6th. up to 550. here's what we know so far. about 130 defendants are actually accused of assaulting police that day. we have about 16 members of the oath keepers who have been charged, 15 members of the proud boys, the far right groups. that's the epicenter of the case, nicole. the proud boys, the oath keepers face the most serious charges, conspiracy against the oath keepers, plotting and planning,

bringing military gear, encrypted communications using the military stack to breach the capitol. but one note, nicole, we have heard the criticism. this didn't seem like an armed insurrection to me from some lawmakers. there are at least two defendants charged with actually carrying guns on their person in the mob, and one of them is also accused of having 11 molotov cocktails in his pickup truck. >> congresswoman, the accounts are so harrowing, and i have full faith, i'm sure you do too in the justice department and the fbi to investigate and prosecute the criminals. but what's being described and charged as a conspiracy seems to beg the question who knew what and when did they know it. how do we get those answers without a bipartisan commission to investigate? >> well, i haven't given up on the hope of a bipartisan commission. i hope leader schumer is able to

rustle up the votes necessary to do what is right and have an independent commission. i think it was you who i heard report and others, this is an ongoing homeland security threat, especially with a rogue former president saying he thinks he's going to get himself reinstated later in the summer, and he's firing up this base. in my own home state of pennsylvania, you saw legislators visiting audit sites, thinking maybe they could reaudit the election and continue the big lie. i had the chance as impeachment manager to get to know an awful lot of capital police as they protected us in our solemn duty to bring the truth to the american people by way of the u.s. senate. they are extraordinary to a person, man and woman, and for them to feel abandoned by us, is just shameful. sadly, we have republicans who know no shame. >> and congresswoman, i mean, what's that look like for them up on the hill? one of them said this on cnn,

when people deny this happened, it's insulting, it's a betrayal. you've got people -- i've got people calling me from overseas, my friends and family. they were more concerned for me than the president that day. how do they go about, and i know they're professionals and i've heard that, but do you feel like they have been let down? >> certainly they have. absolutely. the leaders in the republican senate should have been clamoring for the independent commission to say we need to do everything we can to find out what happened here that put your lives at risk, that put all of our lives at risk. these are people who saved our lives. very literally. they saved hundreds if not thousands of lives that day, and sadly, some of them lost their lives or were injured or lost an eye or lost fingers. it is absolutely shameful. i'll go back to the question i asked before, what are the republicans covering up? what complicitness is in there. what would their texts or their phone calls reveal?

what would their e-mails reveal about what they knew and when did they know it, and what did they do once we were under attack and significantly, what did they do after we were under attack as you saw, it took president himself hours to come forward to say you should stop this. we have leaders here on capitol hill who were a part of that. >> well, congresswoman, i mean, we were on together with former republican congresswoman barbara comstock who has the same questions and concerns and hunches and would like to see all of their e-mails preserved, all of those phone records preserved, is that work happening? >> to be honest, i don't know. certainly in the judiciary committee, we have a lot of oversight to do. what i do hope is we get the independent commission. i do hope that people are preserving, that they have an obligation, frankly, to preserve evidence, and then we also have an opportunity to have a select committee. as i said, this is a continuing

homeland security threat. so the speaker could appoint a select committee. the department of justice could appoint a special prosecutor. there are ways we will get at the truth, we will find out who has preserved evidence. we will find out who has destroyed evidence. we will find out who was complicit in this. >> scott, you have reporting about the capitol police officers, ten of whom who are still off the job due to injuries. how are they doing? are they expected to be back on the job, are some of those injuries things they're being treated for? what do you know? >> those are severe physical injuries. there's a capitol police officer who issued a statement a short while ago in a court proceedings, she was knocked unconscious when a barrier toppled and she was next to the barrier january 6th. other piece that's still out there worth mentioning and remembering, they still hadn't found the person who dropped those pipe bombs outside the dnc

and rnc. there's an enormous reward out there. it's an open ended question. as of two weeks ago, the police said they didn't have a suspect yet. >> scott, i read all of your tweets and reports on this. it's a real pleasure to have you on the program. congresswoman madeline dean, it's a pleasure to speak with you. thank you for spending time with us today on a friday. we're grateful. don't go anywhere, we are just getting started. t go anywh just getting started managing type 2 diabetes? on it. on it. on it, with jardiance. they're 22 million prescriptions strong. meet the people who are managing type 2 diabetes and heart risk with jardiance. jardiance is a once-daily pill that can reduce the risk of cardiovascular death for adults who also have known heart disease. so it could help save your life from a heart attack or stroke. and jardiance lowers a1c.

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i think the take away right now is if you're a corporate executive or a state and local government agency head, and you thought that you would be spared, that criminals wouldn't go after you, guess what, they went after our gas, and they went after our hot dogs, no one is out of bounds here. >> hi, again, everyone, it's 5:00 in the east. the threat of cyber attacks targeting everything from our hot dogs to our gasoline, flagged by cyber security chief

there chris krebs earlier this week. it is now according to the fbi a national security challenge along the lines of 9/11. from the "wall street journal" quote fbi director christopher ray said the agency is investigating about 100 different types of ransomware, many that trace back to actors in russia, and compare the current spate of cyber attacks by the challenge imposed with the 2011 terror attacks. there's a lot on us. there's a shared responsibility, not just across government agencies but across the private sector, and even the average american. this recognition of the scale of the challenge now facing the country and the threat of ransomware attacks posed to every day life for all americans comes after two high profile ransomware attacks caused disruptions for millions across this country. in just the last few weeks, an

attack on jbs, the world's largest meat supplier, took several processing plants offline. and a cyber attack in may shut down a gas line that delivers half of the fuel used on the east coast. it caused fuel shortages in 12 states and the district of columbia. the owner of the pipeline ended up paying $4.4 million in ransom to the attackers. both are attributed to hackers based in russia. in his interview with the "wall street journal," fbi director chris wray said this, he singled out russia as harboring many users of ransomware, providing a haven that has allow the criminal ransomware gangs to flourish throughout eastern europe. time and time again, he said a huge portion of those traced back to actors in russia, and so if the russian government wants to show it's serious about this issue, there's a lot of room for them to demonstrate real progress that we are not seeing right now. that was mr. wray. this means for the biden

administration that the ransomware attacks are both a national security crisis and a major foreign policy challenge. "new york times" reporting the recent attacks have propelled ransomware to the top of president biden's national security agenda. it is expected to be part of his discussions next week in europe. during the meetings with allies and in his summit with president vladimir putin of russia. that summit is set to happen in 12 days on june 16th. the stakes could not be higher thanks to the recent cyber attacks. the summit giving president biden a chance to deliver a stern and clear warning to putin against committing attacks like these and giving shelter to the hackers. ransomware attacks is an emerging 9/11 style security threat posed by russia is where we begin with some of our favorite reporters and friends. the aforementioned chris krebs is here, former director of cyber security. and sisa, how do we say it.

>> i knew i would get it. clint watts, former fbi special agent, distinguished research policy at the foreign policy research institute, lucky for us, and msnbc national security analyst, and ashley parker, "washington post" white house bureau chief and also an msnbc political analyst. "the washington post" has great reporting. how the president intends to deal and confront putin. >> president biden plans to take a hard line with russian president vladimir putin, during their upcoming summit, it will probably take a lot more than that to get the attacks to stop. the president is very determined on this, but the first thing putin will do is say prove it. he doesn't mean prove we did it, prove you'll do something back, that's according to jim lewis a cyber security expert at the center for strategic and international studies and a former cyber security official in the state and commerce department.

my question is are they prepared to answer the second question that he'll do something about it? >> so far, we don't exactly know what that will be. it's been interesting because there's been the attack on the fuel supply and then on the meat supply, things that aren't just theoretical for voters and americans, right, it's something very tangible, people panicked bought gas or waited in line to find they couldn't get gas. this is unacceptable, they are considering their options. this will be a topic of debate with putin in geneva. we don't know exactly what they will do. in talking to people close to the administration, there is a sense that the challenges double because you mentioned that sort of prove it quote, president biden is coming off four years of president trump where he did in most case, not all cases but the opposite of prove it t. there's kind of that double bar to show that this is a 180 from the administration, the previous

administration, and then what tangible actions covert or publicly president biden is willing to take to make sure that this does hurt russia and putin understands that he can not harbor these rogue ransomware cyber attack networks in his country. >> chris krebs, what is a good way for people to understand the current state of our vulnerabilities, it feels like whatever they target, they get. >> well, i think that's the unfortunate reality is that too many of our organizations, whether private sector or public sector, still are not meeting the minimum standard, whatever that might be, of cyber security. so the, you know, kind of the soft underbelly of our critical infrastructure allows for these criminal actors, but most importantly, there haven't been meaningful consequences so you really have this kind of blend of factors that have created

this outbreak of ransomware, and you can't really pin to anyone factor itself. >> chris, what have we been doing the last, i don't know, four years to protect? i mean, have we been sort of caught not making the sort of hardening to our systems. were you responsible for this when you were in government? tell me what has been happening and what needs to happen next. >> you need to break it down a little bit further, i think, to understand the conditions that have led to this current environment, but first is that when you talk about the nation's critical infrastructure, there is generally not a broad set of regulatory requirements for cyber security. there may be safety standards, there may be other oversight mechanisms in place, but most of our critical infrastructure sectors do not have regulatory requirements, and thus, you know, any sort of cyber security

implementations or controls that are in place are almost done company by company. and we had at cisa before my time going back a decade, had been in a position of providing advice and information sharing to industry, and i think that is going to have to change. we are going to have to be much more clear on systemically important critical infrastructure. there are things in steps we have to take to ensure there's not a broader impact to the continuity of the economy. >> well, and i guess that is what clint watts, fbi director wray's comments seem to sort of shock the system by comparing these threats to a 9/11 style national security threat to the country. what is a sort of parallel response look like? >> that's right, nicole, for ten years we have been talking about a cyber pearl harbor or some

major incident that would take down the entire grid. in the last two months, look at what has happened. we have had our production lines and manufacturing taken down. we have had oil taken down. in the last three months, we have learned that the leader of the american domestic extremist group is in russia. we have learned that in cyber space, three different russian intelligence outfits set up interference plans around the election. so we've taken just in cyber space, just one pick after another, pinprick after another. it's now a debilitating fact. people's lives in america are being affected. the excuse usually is we have to respect the sovereignty of russia. they are not respecting our sovereignty. we do not need to respect their sovereignty. if they can't police their criminals and cyber criminals, maybe we need to police them for them, and wouldn't they be thankful for that. a lot of these assumptions are just falling through at this point. the other part is we always go

into every diplomatic meeting with putin on our heels. we start to issue stern warnings, forecast we're going to be very upset when we have a meeting. putin does the opposite. he starts being more aggressive, he starts moving whether it's on the ukrainian border, the black sea. in cyber space, and what is his administration talking about today? how the insurrections on january 6th, their rights were violated and they should have their opportunity to speak in d.c. or how they need to dodge the swift system, and work around u.s. sanctions. it's time for the united states to develop a plan to retaliate for what's going on from russia. we should not be taking any more grief from this country. they're undermining our election, they're undermining our manufacturing, our oil infrastructure. that's enough. they can do something about their cyber criminals. they sure wouldn't be doing it if it was happening inside their country. >> and that's just such an important point, clint watts. let me follow up, and share with

our viewers those comments from putin on the insurrectionists. you're saying that these acts would not be happening if putin didn't want them to happen, even if he's not directing them, they're happening with his awareness and his approval. >> absolutely. part of the reason that russia is strong in cyber space is they allowed this cyber criminal underground essentially to develop itself, and develop a tolerance for it, because oh, by the way, the it brings a lot of money into russia indirectly. the second part is it's an asset they can leverage if they need to. if they want to stoke or conduct cyber activity, they've got recruits, and they've got access. they've got all sorts of tricks and technologies they could use, and so they can prey on that system. what's remarkable is we just will not push back because we're worried that we are too vulnerable here at home. but that assumption fails the test, at this point, we're already losing. nicole, imagine a group of russian criminals went in and

took down our oil pipeline. physically took it down inside the united states. what if they went in and shut down production of beef in our country. or if they went in and knocked over a ballot box and started stealing the votes. we would never tolerate this. never. but because it happens in cyber space, we tend to go back on our heels, and we say, oh, you know, let's work through sanctions to negotiations. the russians they believe that we won't do anything. until we come up with a mounted response, that could be taking digital currencies offline so they can't extract resources, going after an infrastructure inside russia. there's a lot of options we have on the table that we will have to take some. otherwise this will just continue. >> and chris krebs, let me come back to you. is that what chris wray is saying to policy makers. to invoke 9/11 is still in most circles, you know, a touch stone and a signal. do you think he's sort of crying

out for the kind of more symmetrical responses that clint is talking about? >> i'm not sure i'm hearing that right now out of the fbi, and believe me, you know, clint, i share your frustration. i have been right there. i think we've got to be very very careful in how we select from our menu of options in terms of responses here. you know, fundamentally, russia does not have the same dependencies on the negotiable economy, nor the internet that we do. we live in one of the glassiest of houses around, and this is what clint's talking about when, you know, the policy makers kind of blink a little bit, based on how vulnerable we are here. the russians are well aware of our capabilities. they know what we're able to do to them. we have just held back on a range of fronts, and i think that's where we need to step up. we need to make putin blink. we need to hit his pain points. that includes financially, that

includes his oligarch friends. you know, they own football clubs in london. we should have a conversation with our british allies about, you know, having a reconsideration there. and again, their exports put them in a very vulnerable position as well. we can turn the screws on and we chose in the past not to. >> and this is where the pressure builds on the current president, ashley parker, i want to read what clint talked about. putin now sort of taking up for the insurrectionists, questioning the u.s. prosecution of capitol rioters, saying the mob only carried out political requests. this is from the "washington post" reporting. less than two weeks from a first face-to-face with president biden in geneva, russian president vladimir putin friday criticized the u.s. prosecution of rioters who took part in the january attack on the capitol, calling it an example of american double standards. quote, these are not looters or

thieves. these people came with political requests people said of the pro trump mobs that stormed the capitol on january 6th. this is either, you know, one last sort of honey do from his friend donald or the ultimate trolling of current president biden. was their take inside the west wing? >> right. i mean, most people would not consider chants to hang the vice president a polite political request, but this is, again, why the stakes are so high of this summit. there's the propaganda that the white house is going to have to push back on that russia is famous for during the trump era. and we're seeing it again now. it was often russia that was first out with the readout of conversations, for instance, between the two leaders, which would help get his perspective out. help kind of set the agenda. you're seeing russia already talking about the summit in advance of biden heading over there. and the stakes are high because

as everyone else was saying, it's not just a question of is the u.s. going to turn the screws, what capabilities if any are we going to turn on. >> reporter:. but this is biden's first foreign trip. he probably knows putin as well, if not better than any other president, and he has cast himself. it was sort of a promise to voters, everything he promised domestically, i'm a creature of the senate. i can cut deals with republicans. it was the -- i'm a foreign policy expert. i know these royal leaders. i go back decades from his time in the senate, his time as vice president. i can get things done. i can make deals, be effective with my threats, and now this will be the first real glimpse of the challenge and how he performs. >> and i guess i just want to understand from a national security perspective, what does a successful meeting with putin in light of these more and more audacious and brazen cyber attacks look like to you, clint? >> i think the big thing is what

do we need russia for. at one point, we were talking about using russia as a strategic ally. there was discussion around the syria flight. that was part of the reason around it. what did we see instead. they take crimea. they're marching in amongst our allies, they're using active measures, all across eastern europe, western europe and inside the united states. i think strategically, we need to ask ourselves, what do we need russia for at all. russia is already trying to move to have its own information system, financial system, essentially moving in preparation that they will cut off or bring all russians abroad, and all russians at home inside their system. so what do we want from that relationship? honestly, i don't see anything that we need from russia in order to navigate the world, and by then cutting themselves off from us, they're actually leaving their oligarchs out to dry, which is part of putin's strategy to bring them back in.

the only success that comes from this is we create a deterrence where we push back against russia and putin, saying we're not going to make this anymore, and if we make a threat, we actually follow up on it. this is where this began with the invasion of crimea, we would always talk our nato ally, how we will show up and be aggressive against the russian response. we were not. we were weak many years ago under the obama administration, we did not challenge, and they saw that as another way to push forward. after 2016, and election interference, we were weak. we did not really pushing back. president trump took the stage with vladimir putin, and agreed with vladimir putin over his own intel agency. i don't blame vladimir putin. if i were him, i would be doing exactly as he is right now. he should push where the line is to see what the americans will actually take to defend themselves, and as of this moment, i don't know what that line is based on the policies we have been pursuing all the way back over the last six to seven

years. >> and chris krebs with your sort of view of our glass house nature of our vulnerabilities, how likely do you see the scenario chris lays out for this meeting in two weeks. >> i think the messaging has already begin. when you look at some of the communications that have come out of the u.s. government this week alone between the deputy attorney general, yesterday's memo about prioritizing ransomware, the fbi director, the deputy national security adviser, that all builds on the work that my old team at cisa has been doing for months. there's a new sheriff in town frankly. you bring that to the table off the g7 and others ally meeting. there may have appeared to be a splintering in a united front of western liberal democracies, but now we're back, and we're not going to put up with this any

further. >> we're back. you heard it here first. chris krebs, clint wise, thank you so much, ashley parker is sticking around for more. when we return, amid reports that arizona's ballot is fraught with security problems, arizona secretary of state is warning that republican vote counters may be cooking the books to produce the result they want. she will join us next. plus, the truth is still out there, a brand new government report on ufos says there's no evidence those strange sightings in the sky are alien space craft, but here's the kicker, officials say they can't rule it out either. how far has the republican party veered to the insane to the days of george h.w. bush. we'll be joined by the president's long time confidant and chief of staff. don't go anywhere. ief of staff don't go anywhere. be right back. but my symptoms were keeping me from where i needed to be.

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it is ground zero for the epidemic of disinformation for the stop the steal movement and the lynch pin for the ex-president's diluted and baseless. the arizona secretary of state's office have found that the so-called audit is plagued with irregularities and alarming security lapses, things like confidential documents left unattended and security gates left open. it is the kind of atmosphere that is secretary of state suggests is quote prime for cooking the books. joining us now is arizona secretary of state katie hobbs, also a candidate for governor in

arizona. madame secretary, first, just what is going on there. i know it's now become, like, disneyland for the stop the steal movement. you've got state officials in pennsylvania coming to see what's going on in your state, to see if they can import it to pennsylvania. >> yeah, we saw earlier last week the senate president told a cnn reporter that arizona is writing what could be the gold standard in these kind of audits, and i have said in the beginning, they certainly are writing a play book. we know it's not gold standard. nothing they're doing here includes any type of best practice that you would see in a regular post election audit, which by the way, we already do. we have already done. and this election is over. >> you've done three audits, right, and then your republican governor certified the results after three counts. >> we don't do recounts in

arizona. the recount margin is very small, but we do a standard hand count audit of a randomly selected 2% of the precincts. that was done. the three other audits are additional audits that maricopa county did, in an attempt to try to satisfy the senate request. >> tell me what concerns about you about what's happening right now? there's a reporting from -- i'm going to read from this so i don't get it wrong -- that some of the data is being sent to montana. there's reporting about three people who were not residents of maricopa county, rifling through thousands of military and overseas ballots. observers have been told that only maricopa residents would be allowed to handle the ballots. there are other concerns about things being left out and security lapses. are you concerned about now, the

integrity of the actual ball -- ballots. >> i have been concerned about the integrity of the ballots from the beginning when it was clear that there was a lack of procedures, and a lack of security measures in place, and every single day, those concerns just continue to mount, which is why we started posting a list of the experts that are in there to keep a running tally for the public to be able to look at this. there are so many concerns, and if you just took one or two of those, you would say, wow, this audit is not going to produce a result. when you put them all together, there's no way there's going to be a valid result coming out of this exercise. >> so what will you do, i mean, as you said, there was the count, there were the audits,

your republican governor, i mean, this was a bipartisan certification of the integrity of the vote in arizona and moep county. -- maricopa county. you have misconduct going on. what happens next, and how do you guard against it, not just in arizona but across the country? >> well, i feel like we have been having this conversation for a few months now in terms of how we guard against it. secretaries of state across the country are concerned. local election officials across the country are concerned. and so, you know, i think that what we're seeing here, when you talk about writing the play book, we need to be writing the play book of how we prevent this in the future. there already are procedures post election to count the results, to verify the count and to challenge if there are problems with those verifications, and those things all hand, there were no problems, there was no evidence

of fraud and this kind of post election, dragging out the results because you don't like them is not only inconsequential in terms of the actual result there's nothing that's going to happen to overturn the 2020 election because of this, but also it's pulling resources away from the real work we need to be doing prepared for the next election but also, you know, again, continuing to undermine the voters' confidence in our processes. >> you and secretary banson and i spoke about security concerns and the execute threat across the country that's attached to what you just said, the sowing distrust in the results of an election. i want to read you something from mpr about the arizona audit. it's described as a disinformation blueprint, it's an audit in name only said a former homeland official who led the preparations leading up to

november's election. he says this, it is a threat to the overall confidence of democracy, in president putin of continuing a narrative that we know to be a lie. we have a playbook said masterson, a policy fellow at the stanford internet observatory. if you don't like the results, by the way, in an election that wasn't particularly close, you claim you didn't lose and in fact the process again was rigged against you. how central is the arizona, you know, faux audit being carried out by cyber ninjas to fueling that threat and that disinformation that is animating millions of the ex-president's supporters. >> i think it's very central. i think folks were looking for a way to kind of do this kind of thing wherever they could get a foothold, and they got a foothold in the arizona senate to be able to subpoena the equipment and ballots and have the subpoena upheld in courts,

and so now folks are looking at how can we do this in our states. arizona is very central, we have heard the former president say arizona is going to be the first domino to fall, and he's just continuing to use that to fuel his allies and his followers who think he's going to be back in the white house and this is dangerous. >> pennsylvania attorney general josh shapiro said it won't happen in his state. it will have to go through him. what advice would you give states trying to ward off maricopa county, and in other states where the ex-president's followers want to rep kate -- replicate what's happening there. >> here in maricopa county, the board of supervisors declined to repeal. and if they had appealed, i

don't know what outcome would have been but we might not be in this place right now, so challenge at every turn that's possible, and looking ahead, tighten our laws to make sure we can't have this type of thing happen again. >> arizona secretary of state, we know you're busy, we wanted to talk to you this week, and we're grateful you made time for us today. thank you so much for spending time with us. >> thank you. when we return, that remarkable report from the united states government about, yes, ufos, while there's no evidence that those strange flying objects are alien spacecraft, they're not ruling it out either. that story is next. t ruling it out either. that story is next [sfx: fire truck siren] onstar, we see them. okay. mother and child in vehicle. mother is unable to exit the vehicle. injuries are unknown. thank you, onstar. ♪ my son, is he okay? your son's fine. thank you.

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to learn more, visit safetyactioncenter.pge.com my gosh. they're all going against the wind. the wind's 120 knots from the west. >> look at that thing, dude. >> extraordinary sightings, breathtaking, and yes, still unexplained. "the new york times" spoke to senior administration officials, a new anticipated brand new report from the intelligence committee on the topic of ufos or uap as the experts explain them, unexplained aerial phenomenon, and apparently the

government's are ambiguous. after a closer look, there's very little proof of anything. according to the new times reporting, the only real conclusive finding contained in the government report is that very few of the 120 incidents hay studied originated from the american military, casting doubt on one of the top theories that these were accidental sightings of top secret u.s. programs. if that's the case, it begs the question, what are they. joining our conversation is missy ryan, "washington post" reporter, and ashley parker is still here as well. we should put out why this is back in the news. president obama was on a late night show and sort of, i don't know, raised suspicions that there's stuff out there. let me play that first. >> what is true, and i'm actually being serious here is that there are -- there's footage and records of objects in the skies that we don't know

exactly what they are. we can't explain how they moved, their trajectory. they did not have an easily explainable pattern. >> and then 60 minutes very soon after had a long report. let me play some of that as well. >> you know, i think that we have sort of said, hey, man, if i saw this solo, i don't know that i would have come back and said anything because it sounds so crazy when i say it. >> you understand that reaction? >> i do. we've had some people tell me, you know, you say that you can sound crazy. i'm not a ufo guy. >> but from what i hear you guys saying, there's something. >> yes. >> oh, there's definitely something. i don't know who's building it, who's got the technology, who's got the brains but there was

something out there that was better than our airplane. >> ashley parker, enter the new administration, new president, and they now have a public of which 66% of the american people believe that there is life on other planets. we have an ex-president giving credence to the idea there's something unexplained. major news organizations focusing on this. at what level are the conversations and policy meetings about this topic in the biden white house? >> first of all, thank you for keeping me on for this segment, because this is one of my favorite topics, but the conversations are high, and the reason it's back in the news is because the biden administration by june 25th is going to release this report that will share everything that they know about these ufos, that they can declassify with the public. and so, you know, jen psaki has been asked about this in the briefing, and obama when he was speaking said i'm being serious, and everyone caveats those, this

is a serious question. the answer is the reason this is getting discussed at the highest level is the administration views unidentified flying objects in u.s. airspace as national security threats, so z a jen herself has said, this is a report being put out by the pentagon, the intelligence community is looking at it, vice president harris who is in charge of the biden administration's version of space force is being briefed on it. so anything that is a national security threat is getting discussed at the highest levels of the administration. >> and missy, my understanding, i like ashley have a -- it was sort of a hobby like interest. i read all of these stories. it's so interesting to me, there's this intersection covering the white house. my understanding is one of these things that's part of the policy process that's going to be made public is they have sort of cleared other programs. what they have said is that

we've gone to any other top secret program that we could declassify, and these sightings are not explained through other programs. is that right or can you help us understand what it is they're able to share with the public? >> yes, that is correct, and the officials that i spoke to with knowledge of the report said that, you know, the central finding was that they found no evidence of extra activity, and they could not explain what they were. it raises the question, why hasn't it been talked about more seriously in the past. it's been a fringe conversation in the american political establishment and even in the military, people would roll their eyes when they have been talking about it. i think one of the things that's happening now is there's a more serious effort to remove the stigma associated internally for

the military to discuss and report instances that pilots or other personnel can't explain. i think it's one of the military veterans that you showed the segment from 60 minutes, people were afraid to talk about it because they didn't want to be seen as crazy, and now the military is taking this more seriously, in part because there's a political space to do so. >> and missy, does it include, i mean, when i was in the government, you sort of would read team the things that were scenarios, explanations, i mean, how in-depth is the effort to sort of brainstorm and red team out what the other explanations are. is there sort of a group looking at russian or chinese aircraft. is there a group looking at the truly unexplained. what does that look like, a fact finding mission without a stigma? >> absolutely. this report is in the end going to be a product of the director of national intelligence, submit

it to the senate intelligence committee. this was a product, you know, a small provision of a pandemic relief bill that president trump signed last year, and so it's going to be produced by the odni with a loss of input and cooperation from the military who is really the repository of a lot of these videos and these sightings that, you know, we saw video of earlier on. it is being taken seriously but i think one of the things to remember is that, you know, they have not been able to -- one of the alternate hypotheses is these are experimental technologies being used by other countries, such as russia and china, making important advances and directed energy, and so you know, one of the theories which a lot of people consider but has not been confirmed at least as far as we know in this report is that these could be unidentified military or other kinds of technologies being used by other countries. the military just has not been

able to confirm that yet. >> and ashley, we should say skeptics explained these events as one of the following, refracted light, weather balloons, rockets being launched. venus, what is sort of the change, i guess, in the response? it seems like -- and look, i worked in the white house press office, you would have someone fringy ask about this, and you would have to run around, as a press staffer, figure out who's in charge of ufo questions. it wasn't easy to find the person with any expertise. it sounds like that has changed. i mean, what is sort of the tone when someone says to jen psaki, a serious question, what are we going to find out in this june report? >> so two things are really different. one is just sort of the bipartisan, not necessarily belief in extra terrestrial

life, and while it used to be the purview of sort of the wacky or fringe, an example, dennis kucinich was laughed autodebate stage in 2008 when he admitted that he had seen a ufo at shirley mcclain's house, you have hillary clinton, and john podesta, and barack obama, but you have the biden white house taking it somewhat seriously, trump expressing a little bit of openness to this. you have tucker carlson, and joe rogan, and i believe the other day, rudy giuliani and marco rubio, and it's very much bipartisan, and something that was this huge conspiracy theory of the fringe, especially in this moment of misinformation and disinformation, has come again to the forefront, but not in a cringy way, which is fascinating in and of itself, and it comes in a moment when america and the world, frankly, is being asked to kind of open their minds to the possibility of stuff we have previously

thought implausible is plausible. so a once in a lifetime deadly pandemic that takes out the globe for a stretch. that's now happened. an insurrection on the u.s. capitol, that has now happened, and so against that backdrop as well, something that once seemed so outlandish doesn't necessarily seem so crazy anymore. >> that's the perfect analysis, you have this coalition of people who probably don't agree on a lot of the questions let alone the answers. they all have questions on this. that's a great place to stop. we'll stay on it and continue to call on both of you to do so. missy, ashley, thank you. we have breaking news, an investigation into the trump organization, we'll have it for you on the other side of the break. don't go anywhere. you on the ote break. don't go anywhere.

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the perfect setup for game night. i know this! it's the singer, it's the singer! yes! i got next game. -kelly clarkson. i love this sofa. look at the storage. you like my sofa? -i love your sofa. some breaking news just coming to us from the new york times on that criminal investigation into the trump organization. a senior finance executive named jeffrey mcconnie who has been with the trump org for nearly 35 years has been subpoenaed for testimony before the grand jury. people with knowledge of the matter tell new york times he is described as the executive who has long served as the trump organization's controller, making him one of a handful of high ranking executives to oversee the company's finances. the move by manhattan prosecutors is also certain to ramp up pressure on trump org

cfoweisselberg, who has become the focus of the new york city probe. joining us by phone is harry litman. you were with us when news of this grand jury hearing evidence first broke. i wonder what you make of the sort of list of witnesses that are believed to now be lining up to testify. abc news has actually testified that mr. mcconney has already provided testimony to the grand jury, but it could not be confirmed by the times or, i should say, abc news. >> right. and he would be number one, nicole. so in a big financial investigation, there are two people in a company you generally want to speak to. first the cfo. second the controller. and in new york, when someone goes in the grand jury, they are immunized. so there is no way that mcconney

is going to be a subject here. he is best positioned of everyone in the trump organization to give incriminating evidence about weisselberg because, by his role in the last 35 years, he has been the guy that receives basically all the accounts receivables, all the payrolls. to the extent they were playing fast and loose with those times of rules, he is the one who would know it and who would have been right next to weisselberg himself. >> let me read the part of the new york times reporting that gets exactly to the point you just made for us, harry. let's do this together. under state law, witnesses such as mr. mcconnec are granted immu immunity. they cannot exercise their fifth amendment right to refuse to answer questions on the grounds they might incriminate themselves. if they lie, though, they can

still be prosecuted for perjury. that seems to be sort of making your point about him as someone who doesn't face the kind of risk that mr. weisselberg may face. he may have been immunized already. but providing this sort of information and be forced to answer any questions they ask, is that the right way to understood that? >> well, it is. and it happens automatically. so in the federal system sometimes there is jockeying for that kind of bargain. new york law, which is really tough on prosecutors this way, says anybody you bring to the grand jury automatically receives immunity. now, they could say they could take the fifth and stay out. but if they come in, they are immunized. so you can conclude that he came in voluntarily. he knows he is not under any jeopardy, but he had to tell the whole truth. and what it says more than anything is there is zeroing in like a laser and, like you say,

abc reported he already was there probably even before the special grand jury. if that's true, they already were, but in any event they are right now zeroing in like a laser on the somewhat lonely figure of 73-year-old allen weisselberg. >> and my colleague ari melber has featured allen weisselberg's ex-daughter-in-law on several occasions to talk about the pressure points for mr. weisselberg. let me read some of what mr. mcconney could speak to. the times reports he kept a low profile for years even as he rose to become the trump's organization's controller and the senior vice president. but during the 2016 presidential campaign, he appeared in news reports to answer questions about how mr. trump's charitable foundation was raising and spending its money. asked in september 2016 to account for why the foundation

had donated $25,000 to a campaign group who is weighing an investigation into trump university, mcconnie said that was a complete mess up on names. anything that could go wrong, did go wrong. we know in the investigation into the foundation, david told us that mr. weisselberg actually testified against the trump organization. just talk about the symbiotic relationship between these two men inside the company and how their interests could very much align against donald trump. >> yeah. first notice, he has some candor, right? some measure of humor as well. so he -- that's probably the kind of witness he is. but also, there is no way he could be privy to everything that went wrong unless he was deep into the daily details of

basically every account receivable. that's his job description. that's a controller description. that's why you would want his testimony second only to the cfo. so you're right if weisselberg turns, those are two formidable witnesses against trump. but in the immediate horizon, mcconney is a formidable witness against weisselberg. there is little that weisselberg could have done as an accounting which is what it's alleged he did, including all these phony baloney payments as quasi compensation that mcconney himself wouldn't know about. so for weisselberg, he is the single most frightening witness to have walked in there with immunity and told everything he knows. >> harry litman with explanations like phony baloney.

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good evening. i'm jason johnson in for ari melber. we start with breaking news on trump organization criminal probe. a top trump organization employee has been subpoenaed, a sign the criminal investigation is intensifying and getting closer to trump's inner circle. jeffrey mcconney has been called to testify before the manhattan d a's grand jury. nbc news has not yet confirmed this story. but mcconney served as the organization's controller for 35 years, putting more heat on the trump org, cfo allen