cases the opposition party has won seats. we cannot afford to lose these. if you want to gain control of the house in the senate, do something bold that helps working families. >> senator bernie sanders, thanks for making time tonight. that's it for this solar-powered addition of all in good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. i have to say, the solar power seems to be emanaing from you. you're like a celestial body just radiating goodness. >> well, thank you. that's very kind of you to say. it's mostly the solar array. but i'll take it. >> well done, my friend. all right. thanks to you at home for joining us, happy to have you here this monday night. we start with news first broken by our rivals across town at cnn. cnn today obtained audio of a 2019 phone conversation between rudy giuliani and an adviser to

the president of ukraine. in that conversation which took place in 2019, mr. giuliani can be heard pressuring the ukrainian government their president must publicly announce a sham investigation into some alleged wrongdoing by joe biden. if that sounds very familiar, that's because president trump made the exact same demand of the president of ukraine just three days after this giuliani call happened. that was the july 25th, 2019, conversation in which trump famously told the ukrainian president that he must, quote, do us a favor, though. trump wanted the president of ukraine to announce a bogus investigation into joe biden, who was the democratic presidential candidate that trump most feared running against in 2020 until the newly-elected president of ukraine announced these bogus investigations into joe biden,

trump said that, you know, unless and until he did that, congressionally approved u.s. military aid to ukraine would be put on ice. it would not come through until zelensky did what trump needed in 2020. in making this extortionate play against the ukrainian president, vladimir zelensky, trump refused to grant him something he was desperately seeking at the time, which was a meeting at the white house. obviously ukraine was at war with russia, both then and now. it was desperately important to ukraine they get u.s. aid and the whole world could see that the united states of america was on ukraine's side and standing with ukraine in their conflict with russia, trump held all that back and said, no, no, no, not unless you help me in my domestic re-election campaign by

smearing joe biden. that call happened between trump and ukrainian president july 25th, 2019. the hair-raising nature of that call was alerted up the chain by an anonymous whistleblower that set in motion which would end up the first of two impeachments of president donald trump. but before tonight, before cnn published this today, we had never before heard the call that rudy giuliani made three days before trump's call with zelensky, giuliani laid out the ground work for that call between the two presidentings. this is a call before rudy giuliani and basically the top adviser to ukraine's president. az said, this call took place three days before trump's one on one call with ukraine's president. and this all came after giuliani had spent months meeting with his secret sources in crew crane

trying to dig up dirt on joe biden himself. the secret sources giuliani was meeting with all the time, the u.s. government identified them as active agents of the russian intelligence services. so giuliani was getting all this dirt from the russian intelligence services demanding that ukraine use that as the basis for announcing the sham investigations into biden and then he and trump both made clear they would get nothing from the u.s. government, nothing that they needed unless they did that to help trump out. it's such a sordid thing, and we've been through a lot the last few years. but this remains unspeakably craven thing. now we've got the audio which speaks for itself. before i play it, note that nbc has not independently obtained this audio, it's is cnn's audio. but contents match up with a previously reporting about the content of this call and

transcript of it on obtained buzzfeed news. listen. >> what we need from the president to put an honest prosecutor in charge to investigate and dig up the evidence that presently exists and is there any other evidence about the involvement in the 2016 election and the biden thing has to be run out. >> run a political hit on my opponent, maybe then you can get your u.s. aid money, maybe then you can get your white house meeting. >> if he can make a statement at the right time he supports a fair, honest law enforcement system and these investigations go wherever they have to go, going to be run by honest people, that would clear the air really well. and i think it would make it

possible for me to come and make it possible, i think, for me to talk to the president and see what i can do about making sure that whatever misunderstandings are put aside and maybe even -- i kind of think this can be a good thing for having a much, a much better relationship where we really understand each other. if he could say something like that on his own in conversation, it would go a long way with the president to solve the problems. >> it would go a long way with the president to solve the problems. these problems you're having, at war with russia and really need to show we're on your side, we also need to be on your side, we can get you some distance towards solving those problems if you do us a little favor. so that was the call that rudy giuliani made to the top aide to

ukraine's president. three days later trump calls the ukraine president, he gets impeached for that call for trying to extort and leveraging a foreign government to interfere in our election and help him out against joe biden. rudy giuliani is now the subject of ongoing criminal investigation by federal prosecutors in new york, reportedly dealing with his dealings with ukraine ahead of the 2020 election. we don't know if that call that cnn just released audio of is implicated or not. federal agents raided rudy giuliani's home and office. seized 18 electronic devices per federal search warrant. we continue to await news of what will happen next regarding mr. giuliani, mr. trump's former personal lawyer. as for ukraine, the president never did announce a bogus investigation into joe biden.

they did ultimately get their u.s. military aid once their plot was exposed in front of whole world and forced their hand. as for the white house meeting, ukraine never got that. be but the timing of this audio being released today, cnn publishing the call, hear how the previous administration mugged that country. telling them they wouldn't get anywhere in relations with the u.s., a call between presidents or white house meeting unless their president agreed to help president trump in his election effort, unless their government announced these trumped up allegations against joe biden but the timing is interesting. on the day we finally get to hear the audio of rudy giuliani's part of that pressure campaign, well today, president biden was on the phone with the president of ukraine. president biden is about to leave on his first foreign trip as president. he's going to europe this week. he's going to do a g7 meeting,

he's going to geneva to have a one-on-one meeting with russian president vladimir putin. ahead of him leaving for that trip the day after tomorrow, we're seeing the way he's setting the stage for it. and putin, of course, sees his greatest enemies in the world as us. and nato. and also nations like ukraine. ukraine which used to be part of the soviet union, he thinks of ukraine as rightfully russian and therefore rightfully his, that's why he keeps taking pieces of it, putin thinks countries like ukraine and georgia and belarus and all these former soviet states should all be back inside some new version of the soviet union under his control. he's called the dissolution of the soviet union the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century and he's talking about the 20th century. there's a lot of competition for geopolitical catastrophes in that century. but former soviet states, putin

hates any inkling that "a," they aren't his anymore, and particularly they might ally themselves with the west, might want to be democracies, god forbid. he hates they might see their future as linked to america and europe and the western world instead of just being dependent on russia. that's his perspective. hates and wants to undermine us and nato and former soviet states that don't act like they're still russia's to play with, ukraine foremost among them. and so if you know that's where putin is coming from ahead of this putin and biden meeting, how does the u.s. prepare snowing those are putin's priorities, knowing those are the things that most aggravate him and that he most wants to make mischief about in the world? well, in preparation for meeting with putin next week, president biden today hosted they had of nato at the white house. he hosted the nato secretary

general. hello, putin. president biden today also held a call with the president of ukraine, after which the white house announced that president biden has finally invited the president of ukraine to come visit the white house this summer. that thing that the trump administration would never do for ukraine, president biden is going to do that now. and that call with zelensky and d invitation to the white house, the hosting of the nato chief all happening in the immediate lead-up to that meeting with putin. these are all some of the last things biden is doing here before he gets on the plane for the trip that will end with the putin meeting. it's pointedly intended to make as clear as possible with putin the u.s. isn't going to do anything they want and stand by the alliances like nato and the allies like ukraine that putin most enjoys menacing and undermining. stark contrast with the previous administration. right? on the russian side? how are they preparing to meet

with joe biden? one of the things they're doing is making it as clear as possible that russia has no aspirations to democracy, that putin will hold on to power and crush all opposition by any means he wants. and they're making clear he believes he's free to do that in even the most egregious, provocative terms bauds who is going to stop him? today as president biden was on the phone with the president of ukraine, russia was moving the most effective opposition politician in russia from a prison hospital where he very nearly died recently back to the penal colony they have indefinitely consigned him to. just last week, time for alexei navalny's birthday, putin signed a law outlining civil society groups in russia. the civil society group open russia was forced to dissolve itself two weeks ago after the kremlin designated it as essentially illegal and arrested the head of open russia, locked him up and said they'll keep him

imprisoned for at least the next two months because he committed the grey crime of helping run what is now described an undesirable organization. open russia, which advocates for russia to be more open and more democratic, they're outlawed and their leader is in prison. russian authorities arrested another promising opposition figure last week, a former member of parliament named dmitri gudkov. he said he and his family were all liable for arrest again and so he has now fled the country, gone to ukraine. he made a posting on facebook explaining why he left. he said, quote, by remaining in the country, remaining in russia, i cannot be effective in an environment where any political active leads to jail terms not only for the politicians themselves but for their supporters and family members. about his decision to flee today to ukraine, he said, quote, this is not a defeat. this is a tactical retreat.

so russia goes to war against our ally, ukraine. under the previous administration, president trump uses that as leverage against ukraine. holds it military aid and all these other signs of our support for them unless and until they agree to cough up something he are use against joe biden in the 2020 election. ukraine doesn't do it. russia decides they will intervene in our elections again in 2020 to help trump again but it's not enough. joe biden beats trump. and now we're in this incredible moment, this clarifying moment ahead of putin's first meeting with biden, putin locks up every opposition figure he can lay his hands on and ahead of biden's first meeting with putin, biden embraces the ukrainian president, invites him to the white house, hosts the leader of nato. just in case these two competing visions for the world were not laid out starkly enough for you, here it is. black and white. night and day as these two

leaders prepare to meet. . president biden has now published an op-ed in the washington post about his forthcoming trip, saying on wednesday i depart for europe on the first foreign travel of my presidency. stacked with meetings with many of our closest democratic partners, group of seven, nato allies, leadership of the eu, before concluding by meeting with vladimir putin. in this moment of global uncertainty, he says this trip is about realizing america's renewed commitment to our allies and partners and demonstrating the capacity of democracies to both meet the challenges and deter the threats of this new age. he says, quote, this is a defining question of our time. can democracies come together to deliver real results for our people in a rapidly-changing world? will the democratic alliances and institutions that shaped so much of the last century prove their capacity against modern-day threats and adversaries? president biden concludes by

saying, i believe the answer is yes. and this week in europe we have the chance to prove it. can democracies deliver real results for our people? can they? can the democratic system of government show it's up to meeting the moment? president biden has articulated this over and over again that this is our job in the world to show that democracies can do. to show that democracy isn't a quaint but defunct means of government too messy to do things countries need to do in the modern age. that's case made by rising autocracies and authoritarian governments around the world, most loudly by russia and china. the united states under vice -- under president biden is trying to be not only the loudest voice against authoritarianism in the world but the best example of why the authoritarian model is wrong and not as good as

democracy at delivering for its people. the problem with this is we do actually need to be a good example of governing ourselves in order to win this argument. our democratic system of government actually does have to do stuff that's good for the country in order to win this argument in the world and that is not necessarily happening right now. here's how national security adviser jake sullivan put it today at the white house briefing right after president biden made his call to the president of ukraine. >> second question, jake, on voting, for the people's act. if it is not past, is it a national security issue? >> i would say the basic notion of democratic reform and voting rights in the united states is a national security issue. we're in a competition of models with autocracies and trying to show the world that american democracy and democracy writ large can work, can effectively deliver the will of the people.

to the extent we're not updating, refurbishing and revamping our democratic processes and procedures to meet the needs of the modern moment, then we're not going to be successful in making that case to the rest of the world, to china, to russia or anyone else. there is a national security dimension to this today. >> there is a national security dimension to this. united states in a competition of models with autocracy. we are trying to show the world that american democracy and democracy writ large can work effectively to deliver the will of the people. there's national security dimension to this. china and russia and other authoritarian regimes are saying to the world themselves what they claim as a better model for how governments should work. they're saying democracies are failures. democracies can't get anything done. they're weak and slow. elections are just theater. elections don't really give people a say in their government despite all the high flute tant

talk about that. saying that elections are a joke, want to live in a country to meet the moment, have a dictator. it's quicker, easier, actually works. that's their case. us making the counterargument that democracy is a better way for humans to govern themselves is a noble thing. and i think ennobling idea for thinking about our place in the world, but when the rubber hits the road in terms of us setting a good example, we have a couple of real challenges here at home. first and most obvious one is former president trump and his supporters and party as whole are making it their whole focus in life right now, the main focus of what they're doing in politics to undermine the last election. to undermine the election of ideas as definitive statements of the will of the people at all. their most important task right now, the litmus task for support for republican politicians by the former president is that if

they promote this fiction the former president, president trump wasn't really voted out of office. interesting when cnn posted that audio today of giuliani's call to the ukrainian government, reporters matthew chance and marcia cohen at cnn, said, quote, the giuliani call was one of the opening salvos in the year's long quest by trump and his allies to subvert the 2020 election and damage biden. lying about voter fraud, attempting to overturn the results and inciting the deadly january 6th assault on the capitol. it's all part of the same thing. if we're trying to show the world that democracy works. free and fair elections are the righteous way for free people to express their political views and choose their leaders, it's a problem, if one of the major parties decides they reject, deny and defy election results if they don't produce their desired results. after election that produces not

their desired result, they try to overturn it, delegitimize it and set about partisan efforts to take over the election process themselves to make it not a technocratic good thing government thing that we do as a country, to make it a thing that republicans control so they can deliver republican wins. president trump gave his big return to politics speech this weekend in north carolina, called the 2020 election a crime. got a big ovation for that. simultaneously in georgia, that state republican party held their don vengs this this convention this week too, they booed and booed their state's republican governor brian kemp, passed a censure motion against republican secretary of state because they didn't accede to trump's demand they overturn the election result after he lost to joe biden in that statement

that's one of the challenges at home for us making the case to the world for democracy and voting rights and free and fair elections we agree to abide by. that's the challenge. republicans are not sure they're on board with democracy in that way anymore. but on the other side, the challenge is whether democrats are going to be able to do anything about it. whether democrats are going to be able to get something done in this part of governing. whether they can actually do something, effectuate something, deliver reforms to protect democracy against internal threats, reforms to protect democracy and protect voting rites. here's something new, something you have not even before, exclusive to us, about to start airing on tv tomorrow, big seven-figure ad buy. this is from the national democratic redistricting committee their effort to try to build up support for that voting rights bill that democrats are having such a hard time passing. >> this is power, so is this, you recognize it. but for corporate special

interest and billionaires buying our elections, dark money is power. bills spent manipulating elections, gerrymandering districts and restricting our freedom to vote. exactly why we need the for the people act, hr-1 to ban dark money, restore districts and protect our freedom to vote. the real power is you and it's time for the people to win. >> time for the people to win, for the people being the operative term there, that's the name of the bill. that ad is exclusive to us. that's airing tomorrow. that's a sneak peek at that. we'll speak with former attorney general eric holder in just a moment, working on the redistricting committee in an effort to get that voting rights bill passed. conservative democratic senator joe manchin from west virginia is only democrat in senate not signed on to sponsor the bill and this weekend said he doesn't support it. made it as clear as he ever has in op-ed he published in west

virginia paper. it's interesting, senator manchin is not making any substantive case at all against the voting rights bill. it's not like he's laying out the things in the bill that he's against. he says he's against it purely and only because there aren't republicans who will vote for it. i mean, republicans wouldn't vote for covid relief either and he supported that. but apparently on voting rights, republicans saying no regardless of why they're saying no, that's reason enough for him to say no, too. here is something else, though, that i don't think you've seen. it's something senator manchin very much should see. this is new polling that was just done for a group trying to pass the for the people act, group called end citizens ewe united work to get anonymous dark money out of politics. they polled west virginia voters, the margin of error is plus or minus 4 points here. look what they found. this is joe manchin's constituents. on the covid relief bill, joe

manchin voted for, that bill is wildly popular among west virginia voters. covid relief has 64% support in west virginia. that's huge. then they polled on biden's infrastructure bill, the american jobs act. incidentally that's another bill manchin says he won't vote for unless republicans vote for it, too, regardless of why they're voting no. the infrastructure bill is even more popular among west virginia voters. right? covid relief has that huge number, 46%. the infrastructure bill is higher, west virginia that has 68% support for the infrastructure bill the jobs bill. but now look at this, the third piece of legislation they polled on in west virginia is the for the people act, the voting rights bill. it is more popular than covid relief. it is more popular than the infrastructure bill. they had 64 and 68% support for those two things. the voting rights act, voting rights bill has 79% support among west virginia voters.

79%. support among democrats, 81%. support among independents, 79%. support among republicans in west virginia, 76%. more than 3 in 4 west virginia republicans support the for the people act. more than 3 in 4 republicans, senator from west virginia joe manchin says he's against it. by a 21-point margin, west virginia voters say they would be more likely to support joe manchin if he supports the voting rights bill, but he says he's against it. every component of the bill, everything from making voter registration easier to stopping partisan gerrymandering to limiting the amount of anonymous donations from special interests and corporations, all of it is very popular, all of it has way overmajority support among west virginia voters. but joe manchin says he won't vote for it because republican senators won't vote for it no matter why. no matter what their reasons for

that are. he also says he won't change the filibuster rules so that democrats can pass that bill and others with a majority vote. even though the minority party, the republicans oppose it. the west virginia poll also shows that joe manchin is against the tide of his own constituents, own voters on that. a majority of west virginia voters say the filibuster should be eliminated or changed or they don't care either way. nevertheless, joe manchin says he won't vote to change it at all. again we've got former attorney general eric holder here to talk about the effort to pass the voting rights bill. attorney general holder will be here after we just learned about the truch justice department apparently violating rules that were set during eric holder's tenure about not pursuing reporters to try to find their sources. we'll talk with him about that. he's also here at "the new york times" first to report this

weekend that trump's white house chief of staff mark meadows pressured the justice department personally and directly that they needed to go investigate the conspiracy theories about supposed election fraud after trump lost in 2020. there's clear black letter justice department policy that expressley prohibits the white house pressuring the justice department on something like that. that's a policy that was set in writing by eric holder when he was attorney general and supposedly still in place today. despite the trump white house trying to get the justice department on board with their efforts to undermine the last election. a lot to talk to him about. eric holder is our guest here next for the interview tonight. stay with us. insurance policy you no longer need? now you can sell your policy, even a term policy, for an immediate cash payment. call coventry direct to learn more. we thought we had planned carefully for our retirement. but we quickly realized that we needed a way to supplement our income. our friends sold their policy to help pay for their medical bills

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joining us tonight live for the interview is eric holder, former u.s. attorney general, chairman of the national democratic redistricting committee, which among other

things is supporting efforts to pass the for the people act to try to bolster voting rights across the country. mr. attorney general, it's really great to see you. thanks for making time to be here tonight. >> thanks for having me, good to see you. >> how is private life treating you these days? >> you know, not bad. i miss a few things. i miss my comrades at the justice department. i miss my airplane. that was kind of a nice thing. i was never late. the plane always had to wait for the attorney general. >> one of the few things you don't really think about when you think about high level public service, do you get a plane? >> yeah. just like everybody else now. >> for the people act, your organization has big ad buy starting tomorrow supporting the for the people act. joe manchin would seem to be the main problem that the democrats have, senator manchin from west virginia, in terms of whether or not they'll ultimately get this

passed. do you see a path and think will become law? >> i disagree a little bit with what you said, senator manchin, there's some issues there that have to be worked out. but main thing is we have a republican party changing the laws, the election laws to benefit them so they maintain power. affordable care act was pronounced dead for lack of bipartisan support and it's now law of the land. i'm hoping that between now and the time the vote is actually taken i guess at the end of june that senator manchin will understand the dimensions of what it is we'ring looking at. this is beyond a partisan issue. this is beyond the re-election prospects of anybody. this is about what kind of democracy, what kind f a form of government are we going to have. i would amplify what jake sullivan said quite well, you know, if you look at the 20th century, we saw the rise of fascism and communism not

because democracy -- not because it was strong, it was because democracies were not protected, not defended as strongly as effectively as they should be. and we should take that history to heart. and do all that we can to defend our democracy. >> it seems to me that there's a number of clear and present danger points of clear and present danger right now for our democracy. obviously in republican-controlled states everywhere in the country we're seeing very, very aggressive efforts to roll back voting rights, also quite worrying to put partisans in control of key parts of the voting process, including opening up new possibilities for challenging or overturning election results and putting those -- putting that power in the hands of partisans. we're also seeing this, i think, unprecedented interest on the republican side with having these partisan third party sort of sham audits and recounts

where they are accessing real ballots and real voting machines and essentially going back over them without any of the controls that are supposed to apply to our real voting system, essentially to cast doubt on the results. should the justice department -- whether or not those reforms are passed, should the justice department be involved as a sort of backstop trying to stop any of those three components of what we're up against right now? >> yeah. i think justice department has got to be involved and has to be aggressively involved. you know, that fraud-it going on in arizona now might seem for whatever as something that republicans want to support for a short term gain. i don't know exactly what it is, but it will clearly do long-term damage to our democracy if it raises in the minds of people in this country doubts about the effectiveness, the integrity of our electoral system. let me be clear, there's

absolutely no indication that the last election was conducted in anything other than an appropriate way. record numbers of people got to the polls. had the ability to express their views. those votes were counted in appropriate ways. republican state officials responsible for the counting of the votes did their jobs well. trump's attorney general, who i have lots of problems with, indicated there was no fraud in the election. and so all of these things that they are doing now, are counterproductive. they're without basis and they will hurt, they will harm our hard-won democracy. >> but isn't there something beyond that, though, knowing that they are hurting our democracy, knowing that they are inappropriate and unwise as the way you described is a criticism of them for doing it, but shouldn't there be somebody who is stopping them? it occurs to me that when pam carlin, the head of civil rights division of the justice department sent a letter to arizona warning them that what they were doing in that fraud-it

as you described was illegal, was a violation of federal law in terms of the way that ballots and voting machines are supposed to be handled, that should have been followed up with some sort of action, otherwise it's essentially the case that they're flouting federal law without paying any price for it. >> to the extent there are violations of federal law, or suspicions there are violations of federal law, given the nature of what it is they're trying to do, the consequences from what they're trying to do, the justice department has got to be aggressive. sending a letter is extremely important. that kind of sets the parameters for how the justice department could become involved. if the justice department is of the view that there is a violation of federal law, or there's something that needs to be investigated, it should be investigated, it should be stopped to the extent that the justice department has that ability. and you know, the doj is one of those rare agencies that has the ability to protect our democracy. any number of ways. this is one of those times when

the justice department, as i said, has got to be aggressive, has got to be forward leaning in trying to make sure that what is going on in these different states, it violates federal law needs to be stopped. letters are fine, but it has to be followed up with action. >> our guest tonight here for the interview is former attorney general eric holder. mr. attorney general, if you could hold on for a moment. i have a lot more to ask you if you could stick with us for a quick break. >> sure. >> we'll be back with former attorney general eric holder right after this. h former attorney general eric holder right after this freedom smells like. ahhh, enjoy 30 days of open-road freshness. febreze car.

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joining us once again is eric holder, chairman of the national democratic redistricting committee. mr. attorney general, thanks for sticking with us. today i spent some time with some elegant writing by you from 2009 in which you authored a memo for the justice department setting out binding justice department policy that controls

communication between the white house and the justice department. you say the legal judgments of the department of justice must be impartial and insulated from political influence. you then lay out in detail what that means. and as other attorneys general before you had done, lay out very specific rules about the very restricted number of people that can communicate from the white house to the justice department in the matter of any pending or potential criminal investigation. as far as we understand that memo is still policy at the justice department, it has not been rescinded, but yet this weekend there's "the new york times" headline trump white house chief of staff mark meadows pressed justice department to investigate election fraud claims. "the times" first to report this weekend that the trump white house had their chief of staff calling the justice department, calling the attorney general, telling him to go chase rabbits, to go chase down some of the craziest conspiracy theories about how trump was supposedly

robbed of his rightful election result in 2020. just have to ask your reaction to that given your role directly shaping the policy that's supposed to block that from happening. >> well, let me just say this very clearly, that story is appalling. what -- the memo you're talking about sets out what's called a contacts policy. you're correct. it really delimits the number of people who have the ability in the white house to interact with people at the justice department. the jus it is department given its law enforcement abilities, the ability to take property from people, to imprison people, has to be seen as acting in a way that is nonpolitical, in fact, has to act in a nonpolitical way. one of the ways in which you wall off the justice department from potential white house influence is to have very clear lines as to who can contact the justice department about any issues. the story, if correct and have no reason to believe it is not, is clearly a violation of that contacts policy. both with regard to who is

contacting the justice department and also the substance of what mr. meadows was trying to get the justice department to do. that really goes against everything that every justice department has tried to have in place since the watergate era and this is republicans attorneys general as well as democratic attorneys general. it is simply appalling. >> what is supposed to be the consequence when a policy like that is broken? one of the things we ran up quickly and repeatedly in the trump administration, policies, norms, standards, expectations not only violated but flagrantly trampled and then us learning the hard way as a country and as a people that there's real no consequences for people who violate those things. in this case, this is a fundamental ten net of what the justice department is supposed to be but i don't know that anything will happen for this flagrant violation of it. >> one of the things the trump administration did expertly was

trash norms, trash policies. there is no criminal sanction for the violation of the contacts policy. but you would hope that people who are involved in government at the executive branch would respect these norms. congressional oversight is something that's one way in which this needs to be brought up. i would hope with all the other things that congress is in the process of considering that they would find some time to hold hearings about what actually happened here. what was meadows trying to do with the justice department. what was the justice department's reaction to what mr. meadows did? why didn't the justice department surface that which the white house was trying to do? you simply can't have people telling you in the white house what you should be investigating and not react to that in some very strong, negative way. so i would like to see what happened within the justice department. >> let me also ask you about recent reporting, first from "the washington post" and then

from cnn and then within the last few days from "the new york times" all similar contours in which we learned that very end of the trump administration in 2020 reporters at all of those three news entities had their sources essentially sought by justice department action. when their phone records and their email records were sought and obtained by the justice department that appeared to be looking for their sources. you, of course, at the obama era justice department were involved in some very controversial efforts to root out leaks, things involving reporters, those ended up with you setting a new policy for the justice department that pretty severely restricted the circumstances under which justice department -- the justice department can use its power to seek information about reporters and their sources. i wonder if you have followed that current reporting and whether or not you feel that the policy that you left the jus it is department with which we thought was still in effect was similarly violated there in the last days of the trump

administration. >> again, reading the stories it appears the policy we left in place was probably violated. i put that policy in place because i thought in our pursuit of leak cases we had gone too far. and concerns raised by the media were, in fact, valid ones. what we said in the policy, what i said in the policy is if you want to get access to records related to reporters, you should in the first instance go to the publishers, the people who run newspapers, the people who are in charge of the television stations, tell them that you are seeking this information so that you can negotiate something or so that people in the media have the ability to go to court to try to trustrate, to try to oppose what the justice department is trying to do. it doesn't appear on the basis of what i read and it wouldn't surprise me if, in fact, they simply ignored the policy we left in place and it was a good policy, because i think it struck real good balance between the needs of law enforcement and

the protection of the press seems they have violated that policy. i'm not surprised by that. >> eric holder, former u.s. attorney general, now the chairman of the national democratic redistricting committee which is doing all it can to try to build support for the people act, the voting rights bill. sir, it's an honor to have this much time for you. thanks for making time. come back any time you want to be here. >> all right. thanks. take care, rachel. >> we'll be right back. stay with us. >> we'll be right k stay with us

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it was a month ago today a organized crime group based in russia shut down largest oil pipeline in the united states with a cyberattack. we have known for weeks that the company that runs that pipeline paid ransom to get the pipeline up and running but we didn't know the company paid that ransom in conjunction with the fbi so the fbi could follow the money to find the bad guys. this is from the justice department today, quote, on or

about may 8th, the pipeline company advised the fbi it was instructed to send ransom payment of approximately $4.3 million to crypto currency address, blah blah blah a million different digits. with the fbi's knowledge the company sent the money and then this court document released today shows how the fbi carefully tracked that payment as it was traded from one unpronounceable crypto currency address to another to another to another and split up and recombined over and over again until most of the money eventually stopped moving about a week and a half ago. well, today, the fbi seized that money. and in doing so got most of the ransom money back. now, part of the reason the fbi released all of this information today is because the number two official at the justice department lisa monaco wanted to say at this press conference that it helps if you tell the fbi early on. she said basically, look, we were notified immediately about this attack because of that early notice, we were able to do

something about it, including getting back most of the ransom money. so all the other companies in the country might be hit by ransomware f you see something, say something and say it right away, we can help. the fbi isn't saying exactly how they got the money back after they tracked it down. they need to protect their trade craft, even without knowing that, this is an advancement in terms of understanding what our government is able to do around these kinds of crimes. the question is can they keep doing it? can they consistently do it? can they steal back our lunch money? everyone's lunch money as it keeps getten taken over and over again by these crooks. watch this space.

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it's "way too early"