thank you very much. >> we have to deal with this pandemic and the covid-19, we have to face a lot of challenges, a lot of crises, climate change, and for all of these issues, what we need is cooperation. and i think it's great to have a u.s. president as part of the club and very willing to cooperate. and i think that what you demonstrate is that leadership is partnership. >> no arm wrestling. that's very nice. >> not at all. french president, emmanuel macron. >> he's happy not to be locked in that vice grip of former president trump. he was holding on. >> tension city, i tell you. >> it was a tension convention. welcoming the u.s. back to the club at the g-7 meeting. today president biden is at the nato summit, where things will likely again be different than they were with the former guy. it's all leading up to biden's

meeting with russian president vladimir putin in two days. we'll play for you what biden is playing ahead of that summit. and keir simmons' exclusive interview with vladimir putin is just ahead. it is fascinating. blus, benjamin netanyahu out. his former aide, naftali bennett, in, as the israeli parliament approves a new government after 12 years. >> that's a really shocking development. this was, of course, his second act and i spoke with richard haas over the weekend, while this was happening. and haas said, like many people are saying, don't discount the possibility that benjamin netanyahu still has a third act in him. that coalition, talk about a disparate group of leaders together with different factions coming together. with one goal and one goal only,

getting benjamin netanyahu out of power, removing him as prime minister, but it is going to be a very fragile coalition. that's going to be fascinating to watch as we move forward. >> and richard haas joins us in just a bit to talk about that. also, world leaders wrapped up. the g-7 summit over the weekend pledging to face adversaries together. president biden urged the leaders to take a harsher public stance against autocratic countries like china and russia. the group of 7 leaders also worked together to combat the continuing global coronavirus crisis and also climate change. also over the weekend, queen elizabeth welcomed president biden and the first lady to windsor castle. biden and queen were greeted with an official honor guard military parade before heading inside for tea. nbc's sarah harmon has more.

>> reporter: it was pomp and circumstance as only the brits can do. a royal salute from the queen's guard of honor followed by "the star-spangled banner." president biden slowing his steps to avoid walking in front of her majesty. a breach of protocol president trump was criticized for in 2018. after a private tea behind closed doors, biden telling nbc's peter alexander -- >> reminds me of my mother. >> did you invite her to the white house? >> yes. >> the president marveling a to the size of windsor castle. >> i said, we could fit the white house in the courtyard. >> it wasn't the first royal meeting of the trip. the first lady taking on several independent engagements on the sidelines of the g-7, including visiting a school with kate, the duchess of cambridge and highlighting the importance of early childhood education. >> the first ladies aren't supposed to make a splash. >> reporter: she's already

established good personal relationships with boris johnson and carrie simons. and of course, in a sense, it's the most difficult job, because for any of the wives, because she is the first lady of the most powerful country in the g-7. >> reporter: a united front between america's first family and britain's royal family, as biden completes a presidential rite of passage. >> and today, it's on to the nato summit. we'll go live to brussels in just a moment. but first, president biden is also now preparing for a high-stakes meeting with russian president vladimir putin. that will take place on wednesday. it comes at a tense time for u.s./russian relations with disputes over hackling, election meddling, and human rights like the jailing of putin critic, alexei navalny. yesterday, biden agreed with recent comments from putin that relations between two sides are at a low point. the u.s. sanctioned russia in

april over alleged interference in the 2020 election, and the hacking of solar winds software company. but attacks are still coming from russian soil, like the recent hacking that crippled the u.s. fuel supply. nbc's peter alexander asked the president why he believes putin remains unmoved. >> the u.s. has been slapping sanctions on russia for years, for its maligned activities, and russia has not stopped. so what specifically will you do differently to change vladimir putin's behavior? >> first of all, there's no guarantee that you can change a person's behavior or the behavior of a country. autocrats have enormous power and they don't have to answer to a public. and the fact is, it may very well be if i respond in kind, and i will, that it doesn't dissuade him. he wants to keep going. uh i think that we're going to be moving in a direction where

russia has its own dilemmas. >> why do you think he hasn't changed his behavior in spite of everything that the u.s. has done to this point? >> he's vladimir putin. >> joining us now from the site of the nato summit in brussels is nbc news white house correspondent, mike memoli. i and hear some messaging already from the president before the meeting. about vladimir putin and i guess they both agree they're at a low point. >> reporter: yeah, that's right, mika. they're starting with some agreement heading into what we expect to be a fairly confrontational sit-down here. it was such an interesting back and forth that peter alexander had with the president there. what has been one of the hallmarks of biden's presidency so far on the domestic side. we've often seen the white house underpromising and then overdelivering. and so before we even left the u.s., jake sullivan, the national security adviser, saying there frankly would not

be any deliverables, as they put it in the diplomatic speak. president biden himself yesterday saying, he's not sure he'll move the president on any of the many issues of disagreement. but you also heard sort of a glimpse into the strategy on the part of this president who has so much experience on the world stage and so much experience even with russia. he talked about the fact that there are some domestic issues that russia has back home that perhaps aren't quite as appreciated as much as he's heading into the meeting. that's one of the points of leverage that he'll be seeking to maximize during that sit-down. it's something of a pivot point, as we're at the brussels point of this trip. the second stop of the three could not have had a warmer welcome for the president in the uk at the g-7 summit. the french president was welcoming him back to the club. boris johnson who biden himself said was he was a clone of

donald trump, he said those conversations were a bit of breath fair. a bit more on the agenda that could have a little bit more friction with our allies. the u.s. will have to explain its plan for the withdrawal of u.s. forces in afghanistan. he's going to have a sit-down meeting later today with president erdogan of turkey, a relationship that has back bit more strained, even with a nato ally. on the whole, this is a president who is eager to mark that break with the trump administration. we saw what happened a few years ago, barreling through some of our partners, refusing to commit to article v of nato. president biden expected to call for modernizing that alliance to include yes, continuing to focus on russia, but adding china to the mix as well. mika? >> so, mike, as you were, as you were speaking, we saw images of

prime minister arriving at the nato summit. is there one message he wants to send collectively from nato as he moves on to meet with vladimir putin? >> reporter: well, this is an entirely -- the sequencing, joe, of this trip is all about building up to that confrontation with vladimir putin. he wants to not only come out of the nato summit with a clearer message that this alliance is geared towards the 21st century. that will not drop its guard, as president trump did in the president's view, especially on areas like cyber, ransomware, which is going to be a key part of the discussion, but much as we saw the queen yesterday, according to biden, asking him for his perspective on vladimir putin, as well as xi jinping of china, biden has been using each of these conversations he's having over the course of the trip to inform his own views heading into the summit. and the first meeting today, joe, on biden's agenda is actually a meeting with the head

of the baltic stakes. of course, the president, the russian president's incursions into ukraine, particularly, but the concern of those baltic states about russia going forward is so much on the agenda, and that's going to be part of how biden is approaching the summit in geneva later this week. >> nbc's mike memoli, thank you very much. and ahead of wednesday's meeting, vladimir putin sat down with nbc news senior international correspondent keir simmons on friday for his first television interview in almost three years. in the interview, putin called president biden, quote, radically different from the extraordinary and talented former president donald trump. the russian president also laughed off when keir asked him to respond to being called, quote, a killer by president biden in march. putin also took aim at the biden administration's calls for a predictable relationship with russia, blaming the u.s. for

instability across the world. >> president biden wants predictability and stability. is that what you want? he would say that you have caused a lot of instability and unpredictability. >> translator: in certain ways, our rhetoric varies and is different, but if you ask my opinion now, i'm telling you what it is. the most important value in international affairs is predictability and stability. and i believe that on the part of our u.s. partners, this is something that we haven't seen in recent years. if we remember the 2011 events in libya, where the country was essentially taken apart, broken down, what kind of stability and predictability were there? there has been talk of a continued presence of troops in afghanistan, and then, all of a sudden, the troops are being withdrawn from afghanistan. is this predictability and stability again? you want assad to leave? who will replace him?

the answer is, i don't know. if you don't know what will happen next, why change whats there is? >> wow. we'll have much more of keir's exclusive interview with vladimir putin throughout the show. it is fascinating. keir will also join us live from moscow. joining us now, former democratic representative from california, now the director, president, and ceo of the woodrow wilson international school for scholars, jane harman. also with us, president of the counsel foreign relations and author of the book "the world: a brief introduction," richard haass. good to have you both this morning. >> thank you so much for being with us. jane, we keep hearing about deliverables. deliverables. there are critics of joe biden who are suggesting that he shouldn't have even had this summit this early. and he's going to have to give us certain deliverables. the biden, white house, of course, playing down expectations saying, expect

little-to-nothing. what would be a success for you as you look at the summit between vladimir putin and joe biden? >> let me say, half the visit is already over, and there weren't deliverables, but there was a common statement of goals, which we've missed for a long time. there was a collective exhale. the circus has left town. that's a big achievement. the only thing that made me sad was that prince philip wasn't in the photo with the queen. but i think, very good so far. with putin, i don't see that we need to come out of this meeting -- richard may disagree with me, with a big list. i think the fact that biden is knowledgeable. our first knowledgeable foreign policy president since george h.w. bush, with an "a" team behind him, meeting with a guy who he understands perfectly is a really good beginning to that conversation. we've just unwrapped a lot of the ransomware payment to colonial pipeline.

that's a big deal. we've recovered a lot of it. we understand now all the shell companies that these criminal syndicates use, and putin knows this. and so we're coming after him in a very competent, quiet way. and i don't think biden needs to say anything about that. he's just doing it. so my view is, that putin should be much more scared of this meeting than biden. and i think we'll be pleased. >> richard haas, i want to just put into perspective how important it is for our viewers that the united states has once again realigned with g-7 countries. realigned with nato. realigned with the eu. our gdp last year was around $20 trillion. the eu's gdp, along with great britain, if you add great britain, $19 trillion. you're looking together, when we're working in one accord, an economic powerhouse of over $40

trillion gdp. russia's is $1.47 trillion. and so, a united alliance, north atlantic alliance, certainly puts us in an extraordinarily strong position, going into a summit with vladimir putin or even, you know, president xi, wherever that happens, if our alliances are traditional alliances, are strong, as they appear to be, following this week. >> well, joe, you're right. the u.s. alliances are the foundation for our approach to the world, have been, essentially, for 75 years. and they are in better shape today than they were, say, a year ago during the trump era. that said, they're not where we want them to be or need to be if you read the g-7 communique. it's awfully vague when it comes to actual policies. take russia, do you not agree on

the question of russian energy sales to figure out the whole pipeline, it's still an area, even though the biden administration put it aside, it's still an area we don't agree. a lot of the specifics towards china were missing. and the most interesting thing about the meeting with the allies was the real focus on china. i know there's a lot of buildup and i look forward to seeing all that keir simmons has with vladimir putin. but to me, what was so interesting and in how many ways, the european-based, the atlantic-based alliances, which for so long understandably were european-based, increasingly now are globally oriented, climate change, covid, and china. the three "c"s. and that to me what was so interesting about the last couple of days. >> well, israel's longest-serving prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, has been forced to step down after 12 consecutive years in the position. israel's parliament approved a new government on sunday by a

slim 60-59 vote. former ally naftali bennett becomes the new prime minister in a coalition agreement that includes eight separate parties. joining us now from tel aviv is nbc news correspondent kelly cobiella. kelly, what can you tell us? >> reporter: mika, good morning to you. yeah, we understand that naftali bennett, the new prime minister of israel, will be meeting with benjamin netanyahu in the next half hour or so. they'll have a transition meeting, but they won't have the traditional ceremony. there will be no pomp and circumstance, no smiling for the cameras and shaking hands, as they pass the baton. and this comes after a really, what can only be described as an unruly and pretty ugly session in parliament yesterday, during this vote, as he mentioned, apologies for the siren right across the street here. but as you mentioned, that incredibly close vote, which we have heard, would be close in

the days leading up to. but even before you got to the vote, as naftali bennett was trying to give his speech, lay out his priorities for the government, it got really ugly. several lawmakers were thrown out of the chamber for heckling bennett, for disrupting his speech. after the vote took place, as you mentioned, the vote going through by just one single vote. the members of the coalition were sort of shaking hands, hugging, celebrating, and you saw just a stone-faced benjamin netanyahu sitting there, staring straight ahead, really impossible to read his reaction with his phase covered with a mask, as well. he did get up briefly and shook naftali bennett's hand, but he was anything but conciliatory in his speech earlier, vowing to topple the government, again, calling it a dangerous government. this is a very, very diverse

government. i think you mentioned earlier in this show, we're talking about parties from across the political spectrum. there are religious politicians, secular politicians, and they've already been handed a hot potato by benjamin netanyahu's government. it's this ultranationalist march, which is scheduled to happen tomorrow in jerusalem. they have to decide whether or not it goes through. and it's not going to be an easy one to figure out for them. mika? >> all right. nbc's kelly cobiella, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate you reporting. richard haas, obviously, a very, very tense situation there. you did have four members thrown out for shouting during speeches. you, of course,ed a benjamin netanyahu leading up to this vote, calling -- borrowing some words from a friend, calling this the greatest fraud in the history of israeli politics. maybe the greatest fraud --

election fraud in the history of all democracies. that said, he's out of power for the first time in a dozen years. but what a fragile coalition that is lined up against him. this could fall apart at any moment, couldn't it, richard? >> yeah, it could. just to give people a little bit of background, israel has never had a majority government. every government of israel since its creation has been a coalition. but this one is different. it's not simply you have eight parties, but they really run the gamut from far right to left. for the first time you have an islamic arab part in the coalition. the only thing between agreeing to get rid of netanyahu, which they've succeeded at temporarily is things like infrastructure, joe. almost an apolitical thing. the real, question, though, and kelly just got to it, what happens when events intrude if there's a big march. if the israeli supreme court says it's okay for jews to live

if certain areas that palestinians lay claim to, if iran does something. i think then there's real questions about whether this coalition can hold. it's one thing to unify about what you're against. something very different to come together or stay together on what you are for. and it's hard to be optimistic about the long run. and that's exactly what bibi netanyahu, by the way, is hoping for. >> well, and jane, many analysts are actually saying that bennett is more right-wing then netanyahu himself. so not to expect much change in israel's policy. >> well, he was netanyahu's chief of staff. he's an orthodox jew, that's a first. he's to the right of netanyahu and his politics. but let's give a shout-out to pierre la pieded who was the one put this coalition together. i'm more optimistic than richard.

i think israel has needed a change for a long time. it makes me sad that bibi netanyahu, someone who is very bright and capable, missed every opportunity to lobby for peace and also broke apart the u.s. support, the unanimous bipartisan support for israel. the last four years were pitching to republicans only and i think that will cost america and israel a lot, but i just want to say one more thing, and that is that with this rainbow coalition, the policies of the government will have to move to the center. the far-left, the far-right, let's maybe if it works, try to emulate it in the u.s. but my point is, i think a lot of the cabinet members of people who netanyahu fired from his own government and staff and so yes, it is revenge, but i also think after 12 years, to quote title of my book, it's insanity to keep doing the same thing if it doesn't get you anywhere. and one more point.

i think everyone understands that iran meddled in this last whatever you want to call it with gaza. iran taught gaza and hamas how to make those mini rockets that were fired at israel. iran a still a maligned actor here. and having a new government is a very good, and very helpful sign. >> so richard, let's look forward, briefly. what happens if the israeli supreme court decides to rule for israeli families and evict those palestinian families that started the last round -- started the last round of activities that led to the violence, that led to hamas missiles being fired into israel. what happens to that coalition then? >> they're going to be tested. if the court rules that way, and i think there's a decent chance that they will based upon what

i've been told about the legal issues, there'll obviously be widespread protests. the last time there were widespread protests, israeli police acted with a real lack of professionalism, a real lack of discipline going into polling places like al aqsa mosque, using rubber bullets. hopefully this time the government will act with restraint. and really interesting, there's this one party, the rahm party, this arab party. what do they is a? what do they do? can they help call for restraint. this coalition will be tested. and if it's not that, i'm sure it will be something else. and i certainly hope it stays together. the longer it's in power, the healthier it is for israel. and in part, you've got a fifth of israel for the first time feels it has a party that represents them inside the government. and that's a big deal. it deals with our fault line in israeli society. but again, it's going to be

tested and i'm hoping the government acts with much more restraint and professionalism than the netanyahu government did when it was recently tested. >> much more to talk about with this. jane harman, thank you so much with this. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll have much more from keir simmons' exclusive interview with russian president vladimir putin. plus, a federal judge tosses out a lawsuit filed by a texas hospital set of employees from a texas hospital over coronavirus vaccination requirements. how that ruling could impact vaccine mandates across the country. also ahead, new reporting that the trump justice department secretly subpoenaed apple for information on former white house council don mcgahn. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ching "morn" we'll be right back. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪

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welcome back to "morning joe." it's 29 past the hour. it's a rainy monday morning in times square in new york city. some of the other stories making headlines this morning, the transportation security administration reports that it's screened over 2 million travelers on friday at u.s. airport security checkpoints. a pandemic record. the agency said it was the first time the number has topped 2 million since march of 2020, giving credit to vaccine confidence. but friday's uptick was still lower than the same day back in 2019. a federal judge dismissed a lawsuit filed by more than 100 staffers at a texas hospital, who challenged their employer's coronavirus vaccination requirements.

the controversial ruling could have implications in other battles over vaccine mandates. nbc news correspondent catie beck has more. >> reporter: high temperatures and turnout at a heated protest in indianapolis saturday. health care workers fighting a new vaccine mandate from iu health system, which says by september, all employees must get a covid vaccination or face termination. >> if you get the vaccine, why should i have to? why should i be made and be threatened my livelihood if the vaccine works for you? >> reporter: this weekend, a federal judge settling a challenge in houston, where over a hundred employees of houston methodist hospital sued their employer over a similar mandate. >> we're fighting everyone to have their free choice. >> reporter: the judge stating in her ruling, methodist is

trying to do their business of saving lives without giving them the covid-19 virus. it's a choice made to keep staff, patients, and their families safer. the mandate challenge not the first and likely not the last to a quickly growing list of hospitals making vaccines a condition of employment. new york presbyterian hospital system announcing their mandate friday. >> some of these people were expressing that they should have the right to choose, they should have the right to make these choices themselves. >> they're right. as individuals, everybody has the right to choose anything that enters their body. but when we enter the practice of medicine, we know that our health affects our patient's health. >> reporter: doctor and health care policy expert dr. kavita patel says nearly all hospitals already require a host of vaccines to be on the job. many even require a yearly flu shot. >> this is high stakes, not just for liability, but for patient's peace of mind after this harrowing pandemic. >> reporter: high stakes for companies, too.

investment bank goldman sachs now asking employees to report their vaccine status. as in-person work life returns, more struggles ahead on who should call the shots when it comes to vaccines. >> >> we have "the washington post" pulitzer prize winning economist gene robinson with. when i talk to pretends and family members who push back on vaccines and act like this is the first time this has ever happened. i say, you do know, before any of our children were allowed to go to school, any of them, they had to get vaccines for polio, for rubella, for mumps. you go down the list, there were five or six things that they all had to get vaccines for. everybody, even if there was a 0.0001% chance, and of course, a hospital has every right to do that. i would personally say a small business has a right to run their small business the way

they want, despite what ron desantis and others are trying to do, forcing people to let people in, that a private enterprise doesn't want in. it's just so interesting that so many of these people are acting like this is the first time anyone has required that a vaccine be taken to go to school or work in a hospital or work on an airline. it is just, it's ridiculous. it is inconsistent with how we've lived our lives our entire lives. >> that's absolutely true. and we require vaccines. the vaccine you mentioned are for school kids, have been required for a long time. when i was a foreign correspondent, i remember i carried with my passport this official yellow sort of cardboard form that showed i had been vaccinated against yellow fever, because i went to a

number of countries where that had been a problem, and i had to have that vaccine. and record other vaccines as needed. i think i had three or four on that sheet. and i had to show it a couple of times, to get on planes or to get into -- >> this is nothing new, gene. this is just nothing new. why are they acting like this is radical when, again, every single year, every single fall, children go to school, and they're not allowed in without having those vaccine shots. >> because of the epidemic of stupid, that we have seen in this country over the last, you know, decade. and people don't. i was going to say, they don't think, but there's some thinking behind this. and it's wrongheaded thinking.

the reason those diseases like polio and others are so rare is that we require everyone to be vaccinated. that's what we're trying to do with covid. and to work in a hospital -- look, i want hospital workers to be vaccinated against covid. i just, i want that to happen. and i think most american health consumers are going to want that to happen. and i think the hospitals have every right, especially in that setting. and that's essentially supposed to be a sterile setting, to say, look, you need to get vaccinated if you're going to work here. >> we've got a lot of news out of the sports world this morning. a frightening moment at the european championship over the weekend, as the denmark soccer team's doctor says player christian erickson's heart stopped and that, quote, he was gone before being resuscitated

with a defibrillator. erikson collapsed during denmark's 1-nil loss against finland on saturday. the match was suspended for 90 minutes, as he underwent medical treatment before regaining consciousness. it's unclear what caused the player's collapse, but team officials said yesterday he was in stable condition at copenhagen hospital and had spoken to teammates via video. >> this is so frightening. we saw this happen, of course, back in 2012 in an fa cup match at white hart lane. and a doctor came on and tried to revive a player, eventually got him revived at the hospital. we also see this, you know, where you'll see younger people playing basketball and they will just fall over. i think most doctors recognize when that's happened, their heart has stopped. that happened, of course, on the match -- certainly, everybody there remembered what happened in 2012 at the fa cup. they moved very quickly and --

>> thank god, and revived him. got him going, thank god. >> let's move to tennis. novak djokovic is now one major championship away from the men's record shared by roger federer and rafael nadal, after capturing his 19th career grand slam and second french open title, similar to his fourth round match in paris last week to top-ranked djokovic, needed five sets to defeat raphael in yesterday's final dropping the first two before a comeback victory. after his triumph, djokovic gifted his racket to a young fan in the first row in the stands as a token of gratitude for his vocal support and advice throughout the match. as you can see, the boy clutched the rack et and jumped up and down in a mixture of elation and disbelief. experts tell yahoo! sports the

match's souvenir could be worth more than $50,000. >> i don't think he's giving it up. >> i think he's keeping it. >> on the women's side, less than 24 hours after claiming her first single championship on saturday, barbara completed a rare sweep of titles at roland garros yesterday, winning a third women's trophy, as well. congratulations to her. also this, ned beatty, the oscar-nominated character actor who spent half a century in the movie history has died, at the age of 83. beatty's manager said he died yesterday of natural causes at his home in los angeles, surrounded by friends and loved ones. the revered character actor contributed to some of the most popular movies of all time, including "superman," "deliverance" and "network." >> otisberg. >> otisberg? >> it's a little bitty place.

>> otisberg! >> okay! >> this is the most beautiful sight these eyes have ever seen. >> boy, you lost, ain't ya? >> oh, well, i guess this river comes out somewhere, doesn't it? that's where we're going, somewhere. look, we don't want any trouble here. >> you have meddled with the private forces of nature, mr. biel, and i won't have it! is that clear? you think you merely stopped a business deal? that is not the case. >> that lost man log often ranks among the greatest in movies and helped to earn beatty an oscar nomination as supporting actor for his role as the corporate exec arthur jenison in 1976's "network." beatty married sandra johnson in 1989, had eight children from three previous marriages. >> i'll tell you what, gene robinson, you go back and you watch movies from the '50s, the

'60s, the '70s, some do not hold up at all. ned beatty, and of course, bill holden, everybody, faye dunaway in "network," 1976. mika and i rewatched that probably a month ago. if you haven't watched "network" in a while, i'm saying this to everybody. not only does it hold up and could have been done last week, it unfortunately predicts everything that's happened in american media over the past 50 years. it's remarkable. and ned beatty's performance there as a sort of murdoch-type character, again, unbelievably moving. >> yeah, i need to rewatch "network," because, of course, i remember that monologue and that performance in the movie, but i haven't rewatched it in a long time. he was a -- he was a great actor. and will be missed. and, you know, try to think of a

time when he delivered a bad or even mediocre performance. he was just -- he was just a great character actor who always delivered the goods. and you know, there aren't -- there are actors kind of like him around, but he was top of his class, i think. >> yeah. >> i love that line in "deliverance." that river's going somewhere, and that's where we're going. somewhere. sort of like this show. >> somewhere. coming up, it's been 50 years since "the new york times" first published a series of articles based on the pentagon papers. we are marking the anniversary, next on "morning joe." ry, next on "morning joe." [sfx: thunder rumbles] [sfx: rainstorm] ♪♪

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good evening, a federal judge today ordered "the new york times" to suspend temporarily a publication of the series of reports based on the secret pentagon study on how the united states became involved in the vietnamese war. the order will remain in effect until saturday afternoon at 1:00. judge murray finds that in temporary harm resulting from the suspension will be less than the irreparable harm that could be done to the interest of the united states government. the judge scheduled a hearing on a possible permanent injunction for friday morning. >> reporter: wow. that was an "nbc nightly news" report from june 15th, 1971, on the court order to suspend publication of the pentagon papers. that court case was later decided in favor of the "new york times" and "the washington post" and their first amendment freedoms. yesterday was the 50th anniversary of "the times" publishing its first article in the series. the defense department's secret study of the united states role

in vietnam. kurt anderson joins us now. he is author of the best-selling book, evil geniuses, and host of the a new podcast out today entitled, nixon at war. also with us, historian and rogers chair in the american presidency at vanderbilt university, jon meacham. and washington bureau chief for "usa today," susan page. eugene robertson and richard haass are still with us, as well. >> thank you so much for being with us. jon meacham, first of all, talk about the importance of the pentagon papers in u.s. history. talk about the firsts, all of the firsts that the american presidency and the press experienced 50 years ago. >> in a lot of ways, the distrust in government, the sense that there is a deep state working against the interest of common people, a very populous

trope, finds a full expression in the pentagon papers. you had a government commission study about how the various administrations had essentially misled us, at every point, through that work. it was published in 1971. i think that was the same weekend as tricia cox's wedding. so nixon was distracted, but not too distracted. to become -- and he lashed out in reaction to the leak, which exacerbated the conditions of watergate, which in turn helped create the suspicion of government. and so, i think, one other thing, for the home team, to some extent, it's also kind of the coming of age of katherine graham and ben bradley at "the washington post." "the times" follows the injunction, gene's home base steps in. and they obtain their set.

they publish, an incredibly brave moment for "the washington post." and helped all they did. and of course, we know what happened over the next three years with "the washington post," because of the fall of nixon. so you have this moment -- kbd. >> go ahead, john, i'm sorry, we have a delay. go ahead. >> just, real quick, so, you know, there was some conspiracy theories that endure after pearl harbor. but they didn't -- they're on the right wing in the fever swamps. the pentagon papers the different and vietnam is different, because in some case, it's a respectable conspiracy theory, if that makes sense. it is a case where the government misled us. and so there's a healthy distrust of government. of course, what we're living through now, that's been taken to a deleterious degree. >> you know, it's so interesting, you talk about how

this is where a lot of the distrust in our leaders came from, this sort of deep state conspiracy. i remember after watching ken burns' documentary on vietnam, looking at it and actually saying, even though it wasn't his intent, looking through it and going, my god, this really did lead to the rise of people like trump. and lead to where we are now, even 50 years later. kurt anderson, your podcast provides this seven-part series, it's sort of a fly on the wall-type look at the pentagon papers and this crisis, this political and journalistic crisis unfolding. and you even have never-before-heard clips, including one that i'm fascinating to hear. one from the nixon frost tapes. >> yeah, we do. and it's really about nixon's handling of vietnam.

his extension of the war. he was elected, of course, to be the tough-minded guy who would finish it, quickly. he didn't. he extended it and extended it and extended it. and finally, when he knew he was going to lose or the united states was going to lose said, well, just have got to make sure the communists don't win before november '72. he was about to go to china and vietnam was just a distraction. when the pentagon papers came out, which by the way, wasn't bad for him. it was about the kennedy and johnson administrations and henry kissinger and nixon at war coming and saying, mr. president, this isn't going to hurt you, this isn't going to hurt us, this is bad for the democrats. but it sort of triggered nixon's paranoia, which was a long-standing feature of richard nixon, to go nuts. to become the watergate gangster. to this week, 50 years ago, order a break-in of the brookings institution, the

liberal think tank in washington. order it on tape and order it again, as the supreme court was about to hear the pentagon papers case. this is the moment, and then this summer of 71, when he wept went off the rails. and part of it was that he was hiding his own secrets, that we talk about in nixon at war of how he, as he was running for president, did all of these illegal shenanigans to mess up lyndon johnson's peace talkses and not let hubert humphrey have a win. i didn't fully realize how deeply intertwined vietnam and watergate were. and it's all of a piece. and it's just a part of the american tragedy, as john and you have been saying, about the undermining of american solidarity and faith in government and all the rest. but it was -- it wasn't two

things. vietnam's nixon's handling of it. and we're still living with the consequences. donald trump. the silent majority -- the way that nixon pitched himself as the man of the regular people against the -- >> i think kurt froze. we'll get kurt back. susan page, in the pentagon papers and a great point was made, this really wasn't just about richard nixon. in fact, it really was very damning towards lbg and even kennedy. and i talk about the ken burns documentary. but you look at all of this material and see john kennedy before being assassinated saying, they hate us over there, there's no way i can win that war, but i can't get out of it until after the election. lbj realizing very early in the white house, that there was no way that the united states would ever succeed in vietnam. but he didn't want to be the

president that was seen as losing the war. and so, here you have three presidents, one who had military advisers over there, knowing it was never going to work, but kept them over there. one that started the hot war. and one who claimed to finish that war. all three of them lied to the american people when they knew there was little-to-no chance of success. >> and you know, the pentagon papers were important, not only because of what we learned about the president, as you just mentioned, but it's what we learned about the power and the authority of the press to examine its government. this was a crucial court case affirming the right and the appropriateness of reporters to use secret sources to examine what their government was doing in the name of the american people. and let's not forget the courage

of the journalists who were involved in this. daniel ellsberg tried to get the pentagon papers out using a member of congress. he couldn't find one. he went to journalists a to the "new york times," later joined by "the washington post," and the journalists involved in this understood that it was possible that they could face legal consequences, even criminal convictions. it wasn't clear until the supreme court ruled that the right of the press to do this was affirmed. and these are, of course, debates that we continue to have today, as we look at the leak investigations, that the trump administration has done just in the past few years. things we're just beginning to learn about. >> gene, talk about the coming of age of "the washington post," of ben bradley, of katherine graham having to call the shots, making that decision, that she knew put your newspaper, then her newspaper, on the front line of history. >> i mean, it was incredibly

brave. i did hear from friends and colleagues at "the new york times" after steven spielberg's film "the post" came out that kind of diminishes "the new york times'" role in initially publishing the pentagon papers. they were first. but "the post," at a moment when it was clear that if you -- that if you published, there was going to be trouble. that nixon was going to come after you in a major way. and that -- katherine graham could have lost the newspaper, literally, in the fallout from publishing. and she and ben bradley and howard simmons and others of that greatest "washington post" generation made the decision to

go ahead, the brave decision to go ahead, which was ultimately vindicated. and remember the context, too, in which this was happening. the demonstrations against the vietnam war. on a scale and of a kind that we haven't really seen since. i mean, we've had a lot of upheaval and turmoil in this country, but vietnam was this consuming issue and the shock of the papers themselves and what they told us about how we had all been lied to was -- it's hard to overstate. how -- how impactful the pentagon papers were. it was a major, major american event. >> jon meacham, a half century later, what's the legacy of the pentagon papers?

>> we should have a spirit of criticism within the government. in fact, the commissioning of the study was important. and then we have to have the courage to face facts. we can't become captive to our own ideology, to our own narrative and wishful thinking. the incentive of the american people is wishful thinking. the pentagon papers tell us that we follow the truth, we have to have the coverage to stay after it, pursue it, publish it, and a healthy democracy understands its weaknesses and addresses them. >> yeah. you know, kurt anderson, john brings up such a great point, in my house, we were all republicans. we all loved nixon, we all believed, you know, that the world was chaotic. i say, we, my mom and dad. i was playing tball, about 5 years old, 6 years old. but still, there was that feeling around the house.

my dad says cronkite was a communist, but when he said, that's the way it was, my dad believed him. and my dad was entrenched and just like i know a lot of people are right now for donald trump. but it was this constant hammering that the media did i remember the morning, i was eating cereal, my dad looked at the newspaper and he finally said, after years, he finally put down the papers and he quietly said, if this man has done half of what they say he's done, he should be thrown in jail. that was a 25-year-old journey for my father, but it was the media, it was this type of reporting that finally made my father put down that newspaper and say, nixon should go to jail. it was shocking to me, but i

understood it much later on. but what we're talking about this morning, a lot of times, we think it doesn't matter. it does. it does have an impact, getting the truth out there and putting it all on the line. >> yeah, i think it sounds like we had the same dad back then, joe. my republican father was the same way. the thing about the pentagon papers -- this month -- the supreme court heard and decided the case at the end of the month. two weeks it could have gone the other ways. if united states versus "the new york times," it might have gone the other way and we would have a different country today. and it was also the time richard nixon began -- he didn't use the trump phrase, enemy of the people, but that's how he shiftd it. and that was really when the right in this country started going down that long path towards thinking of the press as

its true enemy, as traitors and all of that. the other thing, just, you know, we've been talking a lot about "washington post" this week. the other amazing thing about "the washington post" this week is the company went public. katherine graham on this monday, 50 years ago, took the -- had her ipo. can you imagine the stress that day and that week. and had to do this heroic thing of saying, nope, we're publishing. i'm going to make my friends angry and we're going to go forward. because it was important to get out. and as we see all of the attempts these days recently to marginalize reporters and journalists by the trump administration and find their notes and get their electronic records and all of that. it's a reminder that this kind of approach really began a few years ago with richard nixon.

the line from trump -- vietnam to watergate and the two of them to a kind of anything to win trumpism is just clear. that's what we've tried to do in this podcast. >> and history does repeat itself. jon meacham, we've been talking about the trump administration getting data records from reporters. i remember mort halperin, they had their home phone line bugged for 20, 21 months. he was a member of the nixon administration and they bugged his phone for 21 months. and now we're finding out that don mcgahn was also targeted by the trump administration and you're hearing barr, sessions, and all of these other trump administration officials saying, they knew nothing about it. so it seems that here we are, 50

years later reading stories a lot like they came out of 1971 and 1972. >> absolutely. the phrase, most of watergate is white house horrors, right? it was just one thing after another. and the great -- to me, the great lesson of watergate is it was a case where the system broke and then the system repaired itself. and this is hugely important for where we are now, right? because it was barry goldwater, right? it was john rhodes. it was republicans in the house and in the senate, and to go to your barr/sessions point, eliot richardson and bill rucker's house and people in the justice department who said, no, the constitution is more important than the passing, temporary

favor of the occupant of the white house. that sounds very grand, but these guys did it in realtime. they broke with their party, they broke with their personal interests and put the constitution ahead of their personal interests and their party interests. that's not some hope to lose bipartisanship. it's not that, it's a real human drama. it was a close-run thing, but they did it. the question is now, is who are those republicans in the house and the senate and in the justice department, when the pendulum swings again, who will, in fact, stand up and say, no, the system is more important than my personal interests. >> if barr, sessions weren't involved in this, if they didn't

approve this, then who approved the bugging of phones, the collection of data, phone data, from political opponents in the opposing party. and now, again, this morning, we heard about don mcgahn, who was the person who recommended the same thing inside the trump administration, if the attorneys general at time didn't support that move. >> so if the attorneys general, if it's true as they are saying, that they didn't know, is that reassuring or is it alarming? because somebody knew that they were going -- >> it's alarming, yeah! >> yeah. >> of democratic members of congress. and of the sitting white house counsel, if you're thinking about echos of watergate, think about an enemies list, because this is -- look, we need to know more, we need to investigate. but this is looking like there was an enemies list in the trump

justice department against critics, not because of national security grounds, but because of political considerations. so very much, 50 years have passed, but we're not in a new and different place. >> susan page and jon meacham, thank you very much. and kurt anderson, thank you, as well. the new podcast is entitled nixon at war. >> i can't wait. i can't wait to listen to that. that's going to be extraordinary. >> fantastic. >> world leaders, as we are a few minutes past the top of the hour, wrapped up the g-7 summit over the weekend, pledging to face adversaries together. president biden urged the leaders to take a harsher public stance against autocratic countries like china and russia. the group of seven leaders also agreed to work together to combat the continuing coronavirus global health crisis and climate change, as well. and now it's on to the nato

summit. with us from the site of that summit in brussels, traveling with the president, is white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. actually, we just lost jonathan lemire. we'll get back to jonathan in just a moment. but richard haas is with us. >> and i really like how the biden administration has set this up after four years of a trump administration that tried to shake things up. they had their theory of the case, that we were carrying the load too much. of course, i think you and i disagreed with that approach. so, i like what the biden administration has done. they start first with a special relationship, meet with boris johnson, make sure that everything is okay there. they then get the g-7 together. now they're meeting with nato. they're really lining everything

up, i think, strategically, so they can go with a united front to their meeting. joe biden's meeting with vladimir putin. what do you think? >> i think that's exactly the logic of the progression. first was the united states, the, then go overseas, building from the uk to the g-7, now with nato. next will be the eu. essentially what will check the boxes of our principle allied relations. and what you'll see in the next 24 hours, a lot of the focus will be on russia, to some extent, china on defense. you've already seen the focus on covid. you've seen the focus on climate. what you're seeing is a preparing of the table for the meeting with putin on wednesday. and ultimately, for a meeting with xi jinping. and i think that's why i don't like to use the word "summit for the meeting with putin, joe.

right now the u.s./russian relationship, as important as it is, and biden wants to stabilize it and create a floor under it. in some ways, the reason he wants to stabilize sit china. so over the next couple of days, in the back of our mind, we ought to be thinking, not simply how does this provide a context for a meeting with putin that hopefully stabilizes this relationship. but if you can do that, it freezes up the deal more with china. >> let me ask you about. we had ambassador john bolton on last week, saying, he probably should not have set this meeting up with vladimir putin yet. i'm wondering whether this was premature. weather putin had done really nothing to deserve an audience with the president of the united states. and whether we actually are evaluating him beyond a point

where he needs to be evaluated. should we have just had these meetings gone back and then had a president with president xi? >>ty actually think the meeting is warranted. i've never thought diplomacy was a favor we're bestowing. we ought to have confidence. it's a tool of our own national security. it's important to manage the relations with our european allies, that were also seen as talking for vladimir putin. and we do not want to have a major crisis with russia. i think part of the purpose of this meeting is not to agree on things, it's just to communicate. we do not want putin to miscalculate. we do not think he has a free hand in dealing with the baltics or any part of nato. we want him to know, he's potentially going to pay a price if he keeps doing certain things in cyberspace. and that's important. so again, hopefully it gets him to think twice and it does free us up from among other things, dealing with china.

but i don't think this is premature. and you can end up with a renewed consular presence. we want to have a normal relationship with russia. there's no big upside here, but i think there's an avoidance of a terrible downside. and sometimes in foreign policy, it's not what you accomplish, it's what you avoid. and that's the box i would put this in. >> jonathan lemire is with us now. we have a shot up. jonathan, what does the biden administration hope to accomplish in nato, with the nato summit? >> morning, joe, or it's afternoon here. yes, i'm at nato. you can -- don't let them ever tell you this job is not glamorous. the cinder block backdrop, masks are required. and just off camera, a fanta vending machine. but richard summed it up right, correctly, that the biden

administration really the first leg of this trip is all about unity. the g-7, the world's wealthiest can economy in cornwall, and now in nato, this decades-old military alliance trying to project and suggest some stability, that you can depend on the united states again. that's his message to these leaders, with a common foe. in this case, russia and their destructive behavior, whether it's on cyber attacking. we'll see an addendum, a communique later today saying that the article v powers could be applied to cyber attacks, if their power grid is knocked out by an element of rogue hacking. which is a noteworthy development. and the economic stability of china. so far, white house aids i've talked to, very pleased about how things have gone. they've raved about the reception biden has received. and later today, we'll be hearing from him after he meets with turkey's president,

erdogan, with whom he has a tense relationship to this point. >> jonathan lemire, greatly appreciate it. let's go now to james stavridis. he's international security and diplomacy analyst for nbc news and msnbc. admiral, russia invaded crimea, invaded ukraine, interfered with our election, have ransomware attacks, and yet it serves us little purpose to be provocative. so how do we -- for those of us bo want to have a constructive relationship with vladimir putin, how do we do that when

for 21 years he has proven he doesn't really care whether he has a constructive relationship with us? >> yeah, he's truly, deeply, madly seems to hate the united states of america. it's his background. he's not going anywhere anytime soon. we'll have to deal with him. my prescription with russia is, we have to bend the parameters of this relationship, because it's unacceptable right now. between the litany of complaints that you listed. and i'll throw in there, by the way, he supports a war criminal, bashar al asad in syria, on top of everything else you correctly mentioned. we've got to get some adjustment in our relationship. i think we confront him on the hard issues and look for zones of cooperation, wherever we can find them. for example, we confront him with sanctions on human rights violations, on his continued occupation of ukraine, on his

continued support in syria. on the other hand, we can construct some cooperation in arms control. we both want that strategically. we can find some climate ways. and i'll tell you, joe, as we get out of afghanistan, russia could actually be helpful there in maintaining a lid on taliban activity and violence. of course, there are ways we can cooperate. and here on the split screen, you're seeing the various heads of state and government coming. i've been on that podium various times with various secretaries of general jens stoltenberg is doing a great job. and of course, on cyber. those are kind of the new parameters of where this alliance needs to focus, and you're seeing a secretary

general, very experienced in his fifth year, leading the alliance very well. >> i'm so glad that you brought up syria in the list of things that we have reasons to be concerned about. right now, hundreds of thousands of syrians are starving to death. is that something that joe biden brings up. is that something that he presses vladimir putin on? >> absolutely. and look, this is anything but a summit. this is more like a crater or a dumpster in terms of the quality of the talks that will go on. it's going to be just a diplomatic smackdown, but both will have a litany of complaints that they will register with the other. we've gone through the majority of the others that we will put out. vladimir putin will talk about, the united states has its own problems with human rights.

he'll point out george floyd and talk about incidents where african-american males are shot dead by police officers. he will talk about those things. he'll also talk about our global network that in his view seems to press around russia. he'll basically tell us, why can't you mind your own business and let us mind our own business. and of course, that's unacceptable from our perspective and we've got to count on our president and i know he will to stand up to that kind of talk. but it's not going to be a warm, chatty session at all. >> we have more now from keir simmons' exclusive interview with vladimir putin. his first u.s. television interview in almost three years. in the interview, putin laughed off a question about being threatened my opposition groups and refused to speak the name of his top critic, alexei navalny. >> mr. president, why are you so

threatened by opposition? >> translator: who says that i feel threatened by opposition or that we're threatened by opposition? who told you that? you are presenting it as dissent and intolerance towards dissent in russia. we view it completely differently. you have mentioned the law on foreign agents, but that's not something that we invented. that law was adopted back in the 1930s in the united states. >> in america, we call what you're doing now whataboutism. what about this, what about that. it's a way of not answering the question. will you commit that you can personally assure that alexei navalny will leave prison alive? >> look, such decisions in this country are not made by the president. they're made by the court under the premise that the person that you have mentioned, the same kind of measures will apply.

not in any way worse than to anybody else who happens to be in prison. >> his name is alexei navalny. people will note that -- >> i don't care. i don't care. >> -- that you said that he will leave prison alive. >> translator: look, look, please listen to me carefully. his name can be anything. he is one of the individuals who are in prison. for me, he is one of the citizens of the russian federation who has been found guilty by a russian court of law and is in prison. >> wow. senior international correspondent keir simmons joins us now from moscow. keir, tell us more about that moment, especially, when you tried to pin him down on just the name, alexei navalny. >> reporter: yeah, exactly, mika. it's commented on often here in russia that president putin won't say alexei navalny's name.

he has said it at times when he's really pushed to, but i think it's an insight into the psychology of president putin about his opponents. after that 90-minute interview, president putin continued the conversation with me. he was leaning in, making eye contact, urging me to believe him that, for example, he said, the west is funding some opposition groups here in russia. now, maybe, what i was getting was the former kgb officers trying to use his powers of persuasion, or maybe, as well as being a threat, president putin also feels threatened. and that's kind of analysis of who the leader of this country is, this autocrat who decides everything here in many ways, including moving the time of our interview twice. he clearly is in charge. but at the same time, how threatened does he feel? and that's the kind of analysis

that president biden and his team need to be going through as he prepares to sit down with president putin. just a reminder, this is a country with thousands of nuclear weapons. this is a country that matters, that it matters how america approaches this country and how america approaches this country will have an impact on the years to come, even after president biden is in office. and that is the high st stakes this summit this week. >> you know, it's so interesting, keir. you talked about the way vladimir putin is interacting with you. we know what the russian line is, often. like, for instance, with this meeting with barack obama. he was slumped over, he was rude. in other meetings and interviews, he's dour, his defensive. what struck me about this interview was that he was

laughing, he was engaged, he was trying to connect with you. and i am curious. i know you've had to think about it. i'm sure people that did the interview with you were also trying to figure out exactly what message he was trying to send out not only to you, but also to the world. >> absolutely right. in terms of the message that he's trying to send out, i think the basic answer to that is that he's trying to be listened to. there is this profound sense that after the collapse of the soviet union, that we've talked about this many times, that russia felt it wasn't being listened to. so simply sitting down for an interview and sitting down more importantly with the president of the united states. i think many people would say, it is a win. at least inside the kremlin behind me there, they will see it as a victory. and you're right, i think his

arguments are not as mysterious as perhaps they can appear. he often makes the same argument again and again. for example, consistently coming back to what folks there call whataboutism. you ask him about human rights, about alexny navalny and he says, yeah, but wlabt the capital riots. when you see the full interview, i challenge him on it and say, we call that whataboutism. it's a way of not answering the question, whether president. i also challenged him that he consistently says that countries should not interfere in other countries' domestic affairs. and yet over the years, he has the opposition where he consistently comments on american domestic affairs. he brings it back again and again as you'll see from this 90-minute interview to america, when you ask him about russia. and again, i think that gives you a sense of a certain kind of

resentment, a certain kind of psychological resentment. and again, just understanding who this person is because of his power in this country, i think is absolutely crucial. >> all right, thank you very much, keir simmons. important interview. we greatly appreciate you bringing it to us this morning. >> let's bring in julia ioffe. julia, often, when people talk about vladimir putin, the first thing they bring up, he's a former kgb agent. when i hear them talking about george floyd and civil rights problems in the united states, that's exactly what soviet leaders did back in the '60s and the '70s, and the '80s. oh, you're talking about the soviet union problems here. what about your civil rights protest in the united states? nothing new there. and also, nothing new when he's saying, let's not interfere with the internal affairs of each other's country. what is old is new again.

>> yeah, he did, as keir said, about this interview, he did repeat a lot of the same lines over and over again. that he can't decide navalny's fate, whose name, of course, he can't mention, because that is decided by the courts. and he says if the courts are independent in russia, which they're not, of course, we had sergey lavrov, the foreign minister after his meeting with secretary of state anthony blinken, talking about how if russia is going to bring up -- if biden is going to bring up human rights in russia, the russia side is going to ask about the human rights of the protesters -- sorry, the looters and rioters that stormed the capitol on january 6th. it's interesting the man who was arrested for breaking into nancy pelosi's office and putting his feet up on her death appeared on russian state it have over the weekend to talk about how his

human rights were violated. so just as vladimir putin is saying we should say out of each other's affairs, he's having these people on state tv and giving them a platform. >> yep, admiral stavridis, again, what is old is new again. you have, of course, useful idiots in the united states playing into the hands of our rivals overseas with that interview on russian television. but also vladimir putin talking about problems in the united states, that whataboutism, and also, talking about the united states interfering in the internal affairs of russia. it certainly sounds an awful lot like 1977 all over again. >> and we also want to remember. vladimir putin fundamentally as a bad hand of cards.

his country is declining by almost my measure. population in particular, demographics are terrible. his economy is a one-trick pun pony. or a tro-trick if you count both oil and gas. it's not a big hand of cards, but he's a good tactician. i would say he's a lousy strategist. if he was strategically smart, he would try to move russia towards the west. that's a better option than becoming a junior partner in the china/russia condominium. people who have a weak hand of cards tend to bluff and show they're on top of their game. we outspend -- the u.s. and our european partners, we outspend

russia well over ten to one. our combined defense budget, $700 billion u.s., about 300 billion europe combined. russia's defense budget is only around $70 billion. so we're outspending them significantly. putin will point that out, by the way, to president biden, as well. but putin does not have this towering hand of cards. he's got some aces in his nuclear program and a few other strong cards. >> putin just had four years with donald trump as president, in which he basically got a hall pass. he was pretty much free of the kind of u.s. pressure that we've seen from every other president that's had to deal with russia or the soviet union.

is this going to be a difficult judgment for him going back to the way the relationship generally has been, except for that four-year interim? >> he will be sad to see his -- i think he regards him kind of as a friend in the form of donald trump depart the stage. he will be hoping to see donald trump come back, i'm sure of that. in the meantime, he will kind of play rope-a-dope and hope that he can hang in there until the wheel turns in his view back in the united states of america. i think that he will also use cyber social networks to continue to undermine the biden presidency, wherever he can, for precisely those reasons, gene. it's the right question to be asking. >> julia ioffe, you have concerns about putin getting a megaphone in interviews like

these. looking ahead to the meeting, which is set to take place on wednesday at a villa on the shores of lake geneva in switzerland, there is going to be no joint press conference after, like there was with trump. although they are going to be holding -- trump and biden and putin are going to be holding separate news conferences. what do you make of that? >> well, i think because of the last press conference that an american president did with vladimir putin was such an absolute disaster. if you recall, helsinki where the president sided with vladimir putin. and i think the biden administration shrewdly decided

not to harken back to it or create an opportunity where something can go sideways like the way it did there. and to not, you know, not make a show of it, to stick to their plan, which is to,, you know -- they're there to deliver a message to putin. they're not hoping deliverables and not trying to create a spectacle out of this. i wanted to return quickly to the appoint of whataboutism. it works on many people, because they always start with a grain of truth, right? it's interesting the soviet constantly talking about the violation of civil rights of america in the' 50s and '60s and going back to the' 30s. and one of the reasons that the civil rights act was passed and that the american president got behind it was to take this card

out of the hands of the soviets. and president biden is not going into this meeting with a great hand of cards, either. russians are seeing exactly what we're seeing. the voter suppression laws, the slide toward minority rule, the undermining of our own democracy. so it is a lot harder to talk to, you know, we're see black men and women being killed constantly in this country. it is a lot harder talk about to vladimir putin about human rights when we haven't cleaned up our mess at home. >> thank you so much, julia ioffe. greatly appreciate you being here. joe biden walking in. >> a very joyful entrance. >> while julia was talking about some extraordinarily important things. we had two things going here. but joe biden now standing there

at nato. and we'll be obviously be seeing over the next couple of hours what deliverables the biden administration can get as they prepare for a meeting with vladimir putin. admiral stavridis, we talk so much in this country, we certainly have over the past five years about vladimir putin and the challenges dealing with vladimir putin. i always, though, remind uh the people, the only thing frightening and destabilizing than vladimir putin as the president of russia is what happens after vladimir putin. it could be quite chaotic there. there is -- he is a plan who has

absolutely no secession plan whatsoever. if he were to leave the stage tomorrow, anymore who remembers what it was like in the early to mid-90s knows that's not necessarily a good deal for the united states or for international stability. talk about that >> i can. the way to think about this, having spent a lot of time studying and having been to the kremlin and so on, the russians in terms of leadership, they look for strong unitary figures and they kind of role the cosmic dice. and one time you get ivan the terrible and then peter the great. one time you get stalin, the next time you time you find it landing on another. those dice have landed, joe, as you correctly point out, on vladimir putin, who will be the czar of all the russians until the day he dies. he's got a firm control on the

levers of power. he's going to have longevity. the question is, will those cosmic dice roll in a different direction? our best hope here is that russia will begin to see that by continuing down the path with china, they will be diminished in that relationship, and that a better option for russia, an emergent option for russia would be a stronger alignment with europe. will that happen? we don't know until those cosmic dice roll again. you're probably better off than reading the cia reports, go back and read russian literature and understand the complexity of this culture. the bottom line is, there's a chance the dice could land on somebody better for the west. i would say the odds of that,

less than even. >> and admiral, we all remember back in the late '80s, early '90s after the soviet union disintegrated, the concerns about nuclear weapons and where they landed. the concerns about the chaos that can spread across the former soviet union and into russia, obviously, were life and death concerns. >> indeed, they are. and in many ways, joe, we ought to worry more about russian weakness than russian strength. and what i means by that is precisely your point. what happens in this massive country, declining population descends into some level of chaos sitting on top of 9,000

nuclear weapons. and china looks at siberia full of these resources, china looks at that like my dog looks at a rib eye steak. it looks really good. and for russia, they would be much better served to move themselves towards the west, prepare for that transition. but boy at the moment, right there, that face, you don't see that is where vladimir putin is going. that's why i always say, good tactician, maybe not the best strategist that has led russia. >> admiral james stavridis, sthach. we really appreciate your being on this morning. and still ahead, president biden will be participating in the so-called family photo with fellow nato leaders before the summit gets underway today. we'll be following those

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. welcome back to "morning joe." as you can see there in brussels, belgium, world leaders are getting ready to pose for the family photo, which is a tradition at the nato summit. wow, the pretty grand battleground here in brussels. you can see, the world leaders are all posing, keeping their straight faces on, as they get ready for that picture to be taken. we've been watching these leaders walk across the stage

and pump fists with the nato secretary general as they get ready for this big meeting and this photo, joe. >> i'm curious, richard haas, as we look at the images of the world leaders, angela merkel and boris johnson's hair. >> they all look like they're being beamed into space standing there, awkwardly. not sure what that's meant to be. i think a lot of them are very preoccupied by the domestic situation. merkel is retiring. macron faces the political fight with his life. johnson is dealing with problems with northern ireland. but they're coming together. i think they're relieved that the united states in some ways the united states that they remember. that you've got a more

traditional american president. i think they find this a lot easier. but underneath this camaraderie are some really big policy differences about not just defense spending, but relations with russia and china. and real questions. i think the post interesting question for nato is probably cyber now. how does nato deal with this whole new domain, this whole new dimension of threats and russia is clearly willing and able to use it. what are the appropriate responses? are they in kind? are they symmetrical? it raises real questions about the future of this alliance. and i guess one other thing is obviously afghanistan. it raises real questions of alliance, solidarity, what happens next there. yeah, they're feeling better, but there's a but. and underneath it, i think there's a little bit of unease about things. >> you know, there was obviously

open hostility between donald trump and several world leaders. things got especially testy with angela merkel in germany. talk about that relationship and what comes next after merkel. well, let me say two things. first, you're right about the way you describe it. after merkel, not clear, you had some small elections in germany. still not clear what's the nature of the coalition. you also have the rise of the far right. it's not a threat to the collective natural government. but i think there are real issues in germany as to what institutes the center. how strong germany will be. but you face a situation and i never thought i would say this, out of all the countries in europe, the ones with the most stable government might be mario draghi. looking at what's going on in france and germany, lots of uncertainty there. the other thing, joe, as welcome as joe biden is, i think a lot of these europeans look at us

and wonder, is joe biden simply a four-year phenomenon and ultimately trump now represents where the united states. they literally don't know when they look at us, what is now the new normal, and what's the aberration? is biden the aberration or is biden the restoration of the united states they thought they knew? and what will happen in the republican party under trump or ron desantis or whomever? what we've done is we've introduced a degree of unpredictability into this alliance, which for nothing else, three quarters of a century, was pretty staid. and i think that's the other backdrop to this meeting. >> you know what's so fascinating, you are exactly right. of course, richard our allies have to be looking at the united states and wondering what's happening next. you bring up ron desantis. you can also talk about a number

of leaders in the united states senate that are republicans, that obviously would cause similar concerns. it is always important to remember, mika, even during the trump years, even during helsinki, it seems at times when he would bend over backwards and be obsequious to vladimir putin, even republicans in the united states senate felt the necessity -- in fact, even mike pence at times felt the necessity to strike an almost reagan-like approach to the russians and passing extremely harsh sanctions against russia. so it is going to be interesting to see what the future looks like. but unless donald trump himself is re-elected in 2024, i suspect u.s. foreign policy, republican foreign policy, would probably look much more like reagan's than trump's. >> i think so. but i think the sort of the

weakening within this country, whether it be how we deal with january 6th, the insurrection there. whether or not republicans are sort of reinforcing trump's legacy in state policies, voting rights, i think these are things vladimir putin can point to. as this country being weakened by trump or in his respect, even taking the time during his interview with keir simmons to talk about what a great man trump is. i think there is a degree of power and force that still remains in the trump legacy and joe biden is taking every waking moment of his presidency to try to put that behind us, but it's going to be tough as we have these ongoing issues hear in the united states. >> well, as any expert of russia would tell you, they -- and

vladimir putin and also any russian leader will take whatever divisions they can find and use those divisions against the united states. so when they hear democrats calling voting laws in georgia jim 2.0, they're going to use those divisions against the united states. it's a good opportunity for us to be mindful to fight against voting restrictions that would actually take us backwards, but also to be very careful with the rhetoric that we use in describing voting laws that may not be that different than they were before the pandemic and certainly are not any more onerous than what you find in new york state often. >> as you watch world leaders embarking on the nato summit right now, we are also looking ahead to the meeting on wednesday with vladimir putin. i wonder, joe, what you think about the fact that both leaders are going to be having separate news conferences there.

it worries me a bit. i think a joint news conference, it calls for a bit of accountability as to what happened during that meeting. it will be interesting to see how they each characterize what happened during their meeting together. >> i think it will be interesting. at the same time it may be in both leader's best interest politically to have separately. we would like them both together. i'm sure vladimir putin and probably some around joe biden would prefer they have separate press conferences. we will have to see how that plays out. >> a lot going on right now. we are watching the nato summit play out. as we discussed, the relationship with russia and vladimir putin, both biden and putin call the current relationship as a low point, one that has seen a lot of low points over the years, especially during the cold war. joining us now, historian and

author jeff schessel. he is out with a new book. here is that moment when the u.s. launched the friendship 7 for the very first time. >> 15 seconds. >> godspeed, john glenn. >> four, three, two, one. >> liftoff. >> roger. >> what a moment. i was talking to my father earlier. he followed that and the apollo program. we would go to sunday school

every sunday with tie tacks of apollo 11, apollo 13. jeff, thank you so much for being here. it's interesting to be talking to you at this stage as we lead up to a u.s./russia summit. so much of the space program was focused on delivering one message to the world, and that is democracy delivers. talk about that. >> this is a moment that very much echos the moment that you were just describing back in the early 1960s. when president kennedy took office, this was the question, was democracy up to the task of the atopic age? with its divisions. was democracy prepared to take on the challenge being posed by a single minded authoritarian state? there was no question what the

soviet union wanted to do. there was a very real question in the united states and across the free world, whether the u.s. was up to the task. until that moment that we just witnessed, when john glenn finally became the first american to orbit the earth in february '62. >> this is gene robinson. i was a little kid when this happened. there was a sense of the united states kind of catching up, finally, because the russians had orbited the earth and really from sputnik until that moment, we had the sense of being behind. is that why you chose this moment as the departure point for your examination of that

period? did we then pull ahead? >> that's exactly right, gene. i chose this moment because this really is the moment when the united states fully engages in the space race. it probably wouldn't be right to say that we were ahead at that point. but we were in the game. suddenly, for the first time really since sputnik that you mentioned, back in 1957, here we are talking about 1962, for the first moment it seemed that the united states could actually catch up to the soviet union. there was a lot of doubt. there was doubt in the u.s. there was doubt within nasa whether we were really going to do it. there was a debate in this country whether we were five years behind the soviets, ten years behind the soviets, and what they were going to do with that advantage. there were genuine fears that the soviets would build a nuclear base on the moon, that they would build a space station, which was a fantastical notion at that time, and it would sit in orbit above the

united states,armed with nuclear weapons. it's when john glenn enters orbit that it seems that we can do it. america regains some of its self-confidence. >> now you have actually former u.s. senator and nasa's bill nelson sounding the alarm about america's, quote, need to get off of our duffs because senator nelson says the new threat comes from china. >> the new threat here on earth and the new threat in space as well comes from china. just as it was in the early 1960s, this is not just a race to see who gets bragging rights about getting somewhere first. this is about our national security. it's less about mars, frankly, than it is about earth. it's not surprising that bill

nelson at a congressional hearing recently in trying to sound the alarm and get us off our duffs as he said, he actually held up in front of his webcam a picture of china's lander that it just successfully put down there on mars, a lander, which by the way, a couple of days ago unveiled a bright red chinese flag, making the symbolism very powerful for anyone around the world. and it really was, in fact, headline news around the world, that chinese flag on mars. >> jeff, at this critical time with president biden confronting vladimir putin in a face-to-face meeting on wednesday, can you talk about space as a place where rivalries and cooperation can also play out? >> space is really, as it always has been, a symbol of national

strength. that's why the flags are so important. that's why we planted a flag with each successful apollo mission on the moon. this is why the russians began scattering metal flags on the moon when they crash-landed the first human-built craft in 1959. space is a symbol of our power here on earth, it's a symbol of technology, it's a symbol of our science, it's a symbol of our national will. vladimir putin has made very clear that he is not ready to give up the game in space just because the soviets fell behind many decades ago. what both russia and china, in recent years, have been doing in space is not just engaging in space exploration and in science, but they have been building up with the defense experts called counterspace capabilities. that's the ability to disrupt or disable our satellites, the satellite networks on just about

everything here on earth depends. the challenge is not just symbolic, but it's a very practical one. it's one that president biden has acknowledged. in fact, on the agenda for this nato discussion is whether we not just add cyber to article 5, which guarantees our collective defense, but whether we ought to pledge to protect one another's satellites. >> jeff, thank you so much. coming up, another live report from brussels as the nato summit gets underway right now. plus the major shakeup in israel. the country's longtime prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, has been ousted from power. "morning joe" is coming back in one minute. " is coming back in one minute

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i think we're in a contest, not with china, per se, but a contest with autocratic governments around the world as to whether or not democracies can compete with them in the rapidly changing 21st century. i think how we act and whether we pull together as democracies is going to determine whether our grandkids look back 15 years from now and say, did they step

up? are democracies as relevant and powerful as they have been? >> president biden yesterday on the state of the global affairs ahead of his meeting with russian president vladimir putin in two days. right now, the nato summit is underway in brussels. world leaders just took the so-called family photo just moments ago. president biden has met with the nato secretary-general. joining us now from brussels, nbc news white house correspondent mike memoli. mike, what is topping the agenda this morning? >> reporter: as you say, we saw another happy family photo following the similar one we saw in the uk at the g7 summit. the president sat down with the secretary-general as well, in which he called the article 5 obligation as part of the nato membership a sacred obligation. that, of course, requires any nato member to defend an attack on one member as if it was an attack on all.

we remember what happened four years ago when president trump came here for first time. i was on that trip as well. really scolded our allies for not doing enough in terms of their own defense spending and wouldn't go so far as to reaffirm the article 5 commitment. this is an important moment for the president who during the campaign, he warned if president trump was re-elected, nato -- it would be the end of nato as we knew it, he said. top of the agenda today, of course, is as president biden comes in wanting to strengthen the military alliance of nato for the 21st century. that includes keeping its eyes, of course, on russia, but expanding that focus to include china, to put a greater emphasis on our cyber defenses, to tackle climate change as well. this is something that biden says we need to do more of as well. it's a different kind of pressure on our allies, but a pressure to strengthen that nato alliance as well.

the president is going to get tough questions from our allies. that decision to pull all of our forces from afghanistan this fall, a bit too abrupt for the part of some of our allies. there will be questions about how to ensure the stability of afghanistan going forward. then an interesting meeting tonight. as you played that sound from the president at the top talking about a contest between democracies and autocracies, he is sitting down with turkey's president erdogan, shifted in a more autocratic way. biden spent a lot of time with the turkish president when he was vice president, managing that relationship. a real test going forward as he sits down with him as well. >> it's interesting you say that. we are looking at the family pictures. everybody is standing around smiling. you see merkel and you see some of the other leaders who we consider to be some of our closest allies. then you see erdogan and turkey and over the past ten years,

that is a country that has taken step after step in the wrong direction. that will be such a fascinating meeting. mike memoli, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. >> thank you, mike. more now on wednesday's summit with vladimir putin from nbc news senior international correspondent kier simmons who sat down with the russian president in moscow. >> reporter: as he prepares to face off with vladimir putin this week, president biden saying he agrees with what russia's leader told us about relations with the u.s. >> i think he is right, it's a low point. >> reporter: top of the agenda for their summit, cyber warfare. recent attacks on u.s. infrastructure, some linked to russian-based criminals, have raised concerns over a new cold war. putin tells nbc news, russia is not to blame. are you waging a cyber war

against america? >> translator: where is the evidence? where is proof? it's becomingfarcical. not once, not once, not one time did they bother to produce any kind of evidence or proof. just unfounded accusations. >> reporter: the u.s. intelligence community has produced evidence of russian hackers targeting the federal government, a meddling in u.s. elections. this year, the u.s. has seen multiple criminal attacks, extorting millions of dollars. russian-speaking criminals is the allegation, are targeting the american way of life, food, gas, water, hospitals, transport. why would you let russian-speaking criminals disrupt your diplomacy? >> translator: you know, the

simplest thing to do would be for us to sit down calmly and agree on joint work in cyberspace. we are willing to engage with international participants, including the united states. you are the ones who have refused to engage in joint work. >> reporter: the biden administration has been insisting russia should not harbor cyber criminals. the trump administration called russia's office to talk disingenuous. the kremlin has been accused of violating existing international cyber agreements. now the russian leader admitting to nbc news, he is concerned that the u.s. can target russia. >> translator: what people can be afraid of in america, the very same thing can be a danger to us. u.s. is high tech country. nato has declared cyberspace an area of combat. that means they are planning something. they are preparing something. so obviously, this cannot but

worry us. >> reporter: do you fear that american intelligence is deep inside russian systems and has the ability to do you a lot of damage? >> translator: i'm not afraid. but i bear in mind it's a possibility. >> reporter: when president biden sits down with president putin, he is expected to raise the cases of two americans who the state department say are unfairly convicted in russia. they are two former marines. trevor reed is suffering from covid in prison. why don't you release them ahead of the summit? wouldn't that show good will? >> translator: i know that we have certain u.s. citizens who are in prison and convicted. but if one considers the number of russian federation citizens who are in u.s. prisons, then these numbers don't even compare. >> reporter: on the prisoner

swap question, is that something you would consider? >> translator: yes, yes, yes, of course. >> reporter: russia proposed a prisoner swap before. secretary of state blinken saying the americans are being held as political pawns. president putin insists he can work with biden on complicates issues and build a stable and predictable relationship. >> translator: let us sit down together, talk, look for compromise solutions that are acceptable for all the parties. that is how stability is achieved. >> reporter: president biden says, one time when you met, you were inches away from each other, and he said to you, i'm looking in your eyes and i can't see a soul. and you said, we understand each other. do you remember that exchange? >> translator: i do not remember this particular part of our conversation, to be honest with you. he probably has a good memory.

>> reporter: the kremlin has been cracking down on political opponents like navalny, a putin critic who was poisoned and is in prison. president biden vowed to raise navalny's case. a russian court has outlawed organizations connected to mr. navalny, literally every non-systematic figure is facing criminal charges. it's as if dissent is not tolerated in russia anymore. >> translator: well, you are presenting it as dissent and intolerance towards dissent in russia. we view it differently. >> reporter: will you commit that you will assure that navalny will leave prison alive? >> translator: i perceive that the person you mentioned the same kind of measures will

apply, not worse than anybody else that happens to be in prison. >> reporter: his name is navalny. >> translator: i don't care. i don't care. >> reporter: for now, both sides are downplaying how much progress can be achieved at this week's summit. >> kier simmons with vladimir putin. we will hear more of that interview in a moment. first, the latest from israel as parliament votes in a new government, ending benjamin netanyahu's 12-year rule. what it means for peace in that region ahead on "morning joe." i felt awful because of my psoriasis. i was covered from head to toe with it. it really hurt.

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israel's longest serving prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, has been forced to step down after 12 consecutive years in the position. israel's parliament approved a new government on sunday by a slim 60-59 vote. former ally naftali bennett is the new leader. joining us from tel aviv is nbc news correspondent kelly cobiella. >> reporter: the new prime minister will meet with benjamin netanyahu. they will have a transition meeting. they wouldn't have the traditional ceremony. there will be no pomp and circumstance, no smiling for the cameras and shaking hands as they pass the baton. this comes after a really what

can be described as an unruly and ugly session in parliament yesterday during this vote. as you mentioned -- apologies for the siren across the street. as you mentioned, that incredibly close vote, which we had heard would be close in the days leading up to. even before you got to the vote, as naftali bennett was trying to give his speech, lay out the priorities for his government, it got really ugly. several lawmakers were thrown out of the chamber for heckling bennett, for disrupting his speech. after the vote took place, as you mentioned, the vote going through by just one single vote, the members of the coalition were sort of shaking hands, hugging, celebrating. and you saw a stone-faced benjamin netanyahu sitting there staring ahead, really impossible to read his reaction with his face covered with a mask as well. he did get up briefly and

shook naftali bennett's hand. vowing to topple the government, calling it a dangerous government. this is a very, very diverse government. i think you mentioned it earlier in the show. we are talking about parties from across the political spectrum. there are religious politicians, secular politicians. they have been handed a hot potato by benjamin netanyahu's government. it's this ultra-nationalist march scheduled to happen tomorrow in jerusalem. they have to decide whether or not it goes through. it's not going to be an easy one to figure out for them. mika? >> nbc's kelly cobiella, we appreciate you reporting. richard haas, a very tense situation there. you did have four members thrown out for shouting during

speeches. you had benjamin netanyahu leading up to this vote, borrowing some words from a friend, calling this the greatest fraud in the history of israeli politics, maybe the greatest fraud in the history of all democracies. that said, he is out of power for the first time in a dozen years. what a fragile coalition that is lined up against him. this could fall apart at any moment, couldn't it, richard? >> yeah, it could. just to give people a little background. israel has never had a majority government. every government of israel since its creation has been a coalition. this one is different. it's not simply you have eight parties, but they run the gamut from far right to left. for the first time, you have an islamic arab party in the coalition. the only thing besides agreeing to get rid of netanyahu, which they succeeded at temporarily,

is things like infrastructure, almost apolitical things. the real question that kelly got to what happens when events intrude, if there's a big march, if the israeli supreme court says it's okay for jews to live in certain areas that palestinian lay claim to, if iran does something? i think then there's real questions about whether this coalition can hold. it's one thing to unify about what you are against. it's something different to come together or stay together on what you are for. it's hard to be optimistic about the long run. that's exactly what netanyahu, by the way, is hoping for. still ahead, more from keir simmons' interview with vladimir putin, discussing what he calls a trusting relationship with china. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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aircraft carrier. it has two. russia has one. it's not in service at the moment. china refused to take part in arms control talks last year. you complained so much about nato to your west, why did you never complain about china's militarization to your east? >> translator: the first thing i want to say is that over the last few years, the last few decades, we have developed a strategic partnership, relationship between russia and china that previously had not been achieved in the history of our two nations, a high level of trust and cooperation and in all areas, politics, the economy, in technology and in the area of military and technical

cooperation. we do not believe that china is a threat to us. that's one. china is a friendly nation. it has not declared us an enemy as the united states has done. >> reporter: china -- >> translator: don't you know anything about this? so that's number one. number two is that china is a huge, powerful country. 1.5 billion people. in terms of purchasing power, the chinese economy has exceeded the size of the u.s. economy. and in terms of trade, for the previous year, last year, china tied europe for the first place, whereas the u.s. dropped to the second position. do you know about this? china has been developing and i understand that what's beginning

to happen is a certain, well, certain kind of confrontation with china. everybody understands it. we can see it. why hide from this or be scared by these issues? however, we're not alarmed by it, including among other things, the fact that our defense sufficiency is at a very high level, including because of this. but the most important thing is the nature and level of our relationship with china. you said china will have four aircraft carriers. how many does the united states have? >> reporter: a lot more. >> translator: there you go. that's my point. why would we worry about the chinese aircraft carriers on top of everything else? we have a vast border with border, but it's a land border. what, do you think the chinese

aircraft carriers will be sent to cross our land border into our territory? this is just a meaningless conversation. >> reporter: you also have a pacific coast. >> translator: you are right, there will be four of them. yes, there will be four of them. coast? well, the coast is huge. but the bulk of the border between us and china say land border. yes, you are right there will be four of them, because one needs to be maintenance. one needs to be on combat duty. one is to be in repairs. there's nothing excessive here for china. that is why what you said that china won't engage in negotiations, arms control, it refuses to negotiate reductions in nuclear offensive weapons. you should ask the chinese about it, whether it's good or bad, it's up to them. but their arguments are simple and they are understandable. the level both in terms of the

amount of ammunition and warheads and delivery vehicles, the united states and russia are far, far ahead of china. and the chinese justly ask, why would we make reductions if we are already far behind what you have? or do you want us to freeze our level of nuclear deterrents? why should we freeze? why we, a country, with a billion and a half population, cannot at least set the goal of achieving your levels? these are all debatable issues that require thorough consideration. but making us responsible for china's position is just comical. >> reporter: it's just a question of whether you are prepared to criticize china. china, for example, abstained on crimea at the security council.

china's biggest banks have not contravened sanctions against russia. do you think you get 100% support from china? >> reporter: you know, we are neighboring countries. one does not choose one's neighbors. we are pleased with the level of our relationship, which, as i said, is unprecedentedly high, as it has evolved over the last few decades, and we cherish it just like our chinese friends cherish it, which we can see. why are you trying to drag us into some kind of issues that you evaluate as you see fit for building your relationship with china? i will tell you completely honestly -- can i be completely honest? >> reporter: please, yes. >> translator: we can see attempts as destroying the relationship between russia and china. we can see that those attempts

are being made in practical policies. and your questions, too, have to do with that. i have set forth my position for you. >> nbc's keir simmons with vladimir putin. still ahead, new reporting on the heavy handed tactics from the trump justice department in search for leakers during the russia investigation. this time, reportedly spying on the white house counsel at the time. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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welcome back to "morning joe." it's 35 past the hour. live look at time square in new york city. a frightening moment at the european championship on saturday when denmark's eriksen collapsed on the field during the game against finland.

the team's doctor says it's unclear what caused the player's collapse, but that his heart stopped before he was resuscitated with a defibrillator. joining us now, nbc sports soccer analyst and co-host of "men in blazers" roger bennett with more. that was horrific. >> a frightening time. it does take you back to 2012 and the cup and what happened there. >> it's an awful moment. 29-year-old, an elite athlete, in game, with the world watching. what we know is a cardiac arrest. the team doctor admitted yesterday the player was, quote, gone before he was resuscitated. eriksen reportedly stable. a huge relief. a global reminder of the fragility of life. >> no doubt about it. moving on to action throughout

the weekend. a couple of headlines. italy, who, my gosh, really saw their country collapse globally over the past four years, staged a strong comeback. england getting a win in the first round, i believe for first time. austria getting their first win. a lot of firsts. >> this is the battle between europe's international's teams. 51 matches, 31 days, 11 cities from scotland and then you look back when it was canceled after coronavirus. it's a triumph for europe. in the opening game, italy -- they smashed turkey 3-0.

joy for italy after the year they have had. nature is healing. football is healing. in the big game of the weekend, england essentially the new york knicks of global football opened up their journey to become national heroes. started against world cup finalist croatia. they opened well. 57 minutes, sterling, this beautiful man finishing with a signature waddle.

england used to have an empire. my moment of the weekend, tiny macedonia, smaller than houston, texas, first ever tournament. they scored. moment in history. austria would win the day 3-1. it was not to be for north macedonia. >> roger bennett, thank you so much. looking forward to a lot more in the coming weeks. >> roger's new book is "reborn in the usa, an englishman's love letter." turning to last week's revelation of the trump era justice department's secret subpoenaed of lawmakers' personal data to which house speaker nancy pelosi compared to

the nixon white house. >> what the administration did, the justice department, leadership of the former president, goes beyond richard nixon. nixon had an enemies list. this is about undermining the rule of law. for this attorneys general barr and sessions, at least two, to say they didn't know anything about it is beyond belief. >> "the new york times" reports the trump justice department's collection of data on government officials included then white house counsel don mcgahn, the doj subpoenaed apple in february 2018 for information about an account that belonged to mcgahn and barred the company from telling him about it. according to two people briefed on the matter. mcgahn was top lawyer for the 2016 trump presidential campaign before becoming white house counsel and was in contact with

many who may have been examined in the probe of russian election interference. the mcgahn disclosure follows the justice department's friday announcement that the agency watchdog would review how officials sought the data of reporters, lawmakers and others as part of an aggressive crackdown on leaks during the trump administration. democrats welcome the announcement. chuck schumer wants a congressional investigation with the testimony of the former attorneys general. joining us now, nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early" kasie hunt. also with us, former assistant district attorney for the southern district of new york, daniel goldman. he was majority counsel in the impeachment inquiry against donald trump and staff counsel to the house managers in the impeachment trial. >> thank you for being with us.

daniel, we explained last week that spying on journalists was nothing new. the obama administration did it aggressively against the ap and other news organizations. you have the trump administration not only doing that, they were spying on people who were investigating them on capitol hill, which certainly sounded remarkable, something that i can't recall any justice department doing. now the news that they were spying even on their own, spying on their white house counsel. try to put this into perspective for us. >> there's a lot of information that's coming at us fast. and a lot of it doesn't seem to make a ton of sense when you look at it all together. in doing my best, i would issue a word of caution before we start using things like spying. i would be highly, highly doubtful that the justice department, as part of a leak

investigation, was intentionally subpoenaing don mcgahn's phone records. one of the things to think about here is, when you get a list of call records for an individual that you are investigating, you need to figure out who they are speaking to. it could be a scenario where they reached out to apple or others to determine what numbers were and what one phone number was and it was don mcgahn's. that's one possibility. the house members and staff is a little bit more concerning. "the new york times" reporting indicates that a potential individual of interest was michael bahar, the former staff director of the house intelligence committee. given the notifications went out to house members as well as democratic staff, that would make some sense. i am highly suspicious as to

what the basis is for that kind of investigation of michael bahar for leaking. particularly if it came around the time of nunes' midnight run to the white house, which you may recall, joe, caused him to recuse himself from the russia investigation. so there's a lot more that we need to learn. i think the inspector general investigation is a good start. the department of justice under garland needs to be more transparent than ag garland may feel comfortable with, because there are just so many questions right now. >> daniel, you are suggesting that what happened to don mcgahn, perhaps he was just caught up in a sweep of somebody else, the same thing that happen ed to michael flynn, in the winter of 2016, where they were

getting the records of -- listening to the russian ambassador and that's how he got caught up? you think mcgahn might be a secondary target? >> i think -- [ no audio ] the white house counsel's phone records. the flynn matter is a different animal. he was recorded on a conversation with the russian ambassador. so that obviously revealed his own conduct. we're not talking about content here. we're not talking about recordings. we're not talking about actual emails. there's just a lot more that we need to know. that's why i think many are urging the department of justice to be far more transparent so that we are -- we understand whether this was actually spying or whether this was far less nefarious. >> daniel goldman, thank you. greatly appreciate you being

with us. we are looking forward to getting those answers. i think danielis exactly right. the attorney general needs to be more forthcoming than he may be given what's at stake here. kasie hunt, let's talk about reaction from the hill. you were talking about this at the end of last week, that the trump white house was actually getting the phone records of people that were investigating the white house. i said, back in the old days, back when i was there on the hill, you would have seen a bipartisan outcry against the president going after people in congress. have we heard any bipartisan complaints here? has it just been the same predictable democrats complaining about this overstep? >> well, you know, joe, i think the most interesting dynamic has been, in fact, democratic frustration with the biden justice department, with

garland's justice department. i think this is consider daniel goldman's point is so well taken. garland is in there trying to get everyone back on a set of norms that were essentially abandoned or at least partly abandoned under trump. he will likely want to go back to not talking about this kind of stuff and following the rules. but democrats on the hill are looking at them and saying, you have the information now about what was going on here. there were calls for this investigation. the justice department announced the ig investigation on friday afternoon, after hearing some of this. but that was just as democrats were getting briefed on what happened and told, if you want to find out whether your records were caught up in this, you have to call apple. apple has to use some mysterious mechanism to come up with the records that actually were included in the subpoena. so i actually think there's a lot of frustration among -- certainly among democrats. your question about republicans essentially answers itself.

i don't want to say that -- i may have overlooked an email or note. suffice to say, there has not been a bipartisan outcry over what happened. >> is there concern among democrats, republicans, anybody on the hill about what those norms are? garland is trying to get us back to norms. one of the norms seems to be this super aggressive to the point of creepy and maybe unconstitutional pursuit of leaks. any kinds of leaks that is -- it's not -- this administration, it wasn't unique to the trump administration. it was building through the obama years. are there concerns about that norm itself that garland may be getting back to? why do we want him to get back to that? >> well, that's not necessarily what i meant by saying get back to norms.

i think what you are pointing to is something that has developed, you are right, over several administrations, frankly, presidents in both parties. we have pointed that out on the show a number of times. i don't think that there is necessarily -- certainly, there are members of congress, like ron widen, for example, leads on this issue quite a bit, who don't think the way they do business in this regard is the way that we should be doing things. sometimes there is tension between a white house and sometimes members of congress on this kind of a thing. obviously, white houses have generally speaking been accumulating more power to themselves. this leak investigation is one pretty sinister in some ways example of them doing that. some of that comes from congress giving up its own prerogatives, because they are worried about their own political future. it's a very, very tricky issue. i don't think that people who are concerned about the aggressiveness of this leak

investigation necessarily want to see some sort of return or increase in that. >> all right. coming up, our next guest knows the way forward for the republican party and the conservative movement. former south carolina governor and congressman mark south car and candidate mark sanford joins us nicks with his new plea for conservatives to abandon what he calls the cult of trump. we're back in 90 seconds. n 90 ss

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welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now is former republican governor and south carolina congressman mark sanford. he has a new book coming out in august entitled "two roads diverged: a second chance for the republican party, the movement, the nation and ourselves." welcome back to the show. i'd love to hear about that second chance, but i think also the question might be how to get republicans who are in office right now to take it. >> well, that's the $94 question, that's why you have to read the book. but the long and the short of it is, we are at a crossroads. not just as a party or a conservative movement but going forward.

the norms you were talking about in the last segment are absolutely startling. what needs to be remembered here is that the rome republic after 500 years just didn't fall, it was the erosion of norms and institutions and traditions that paved the way for the likes of a caesar. what i'm suggesting is that we're playing with absolute fire. we have got to get off the road we're on and try a different path, and ultimately that's what this book is about. >> so, mark, when we had john baynor on, a lot of people said how dare he talk about donald trump. he was responsible for starting the fire. there are people that would say that you and i in the '94 congress were responsible for starting this fire, that trump was nothing new, that the ground was paved for donald trump well before he got there. what do you say to critics that you and i, the class of '94, even ronald reagan is responsible for where we are right now? >> i would say give me a break.

that is a complete joke. and i say it for this reason. ronald reagan, whether you liked him or not, was absolutely crystal clear about a governing philosophy. sometimes he got there, sometimes he didn't, but he was clear about what he viewed as true north. similarly the class of 1994 with a contract with america, with things that we viewed as true north were ultimately about conservative principles. you could agree or disagree with them, but there was a guiding, governing philosophy. what we have devolved down to now is a cult personality built around one man. not a governing philosophy, but one man. and that is a far cry from what you saw before. so i would say, no, we weren't oppressed into what's occurred of late. we were trying to govern toward conservative philosophy which is what the republican party used to actually be about. >> you talk about playing with fire. the problem, though, that i think we're confronting right

now is getting everyone to see the same thing, fire. so let's use january 6th as an example. what do we make of people that you've worked with, joe worked with who refused to see the fire the same way, january 6 for what it was? >> well, a, i think you have to differentiate. i would say a lot of people that, quote, didn't see it, half of the house voting afterward to not basically caudify what the electoral college had come up with, i think that's self-preservation. the name of the game is staying in the game for a lot of people in politics. there is a lot of i hear no evil, i see no evil, i speak no evil based on i want to keep my job. that's what's really going on. so i would say for that group, i think it's the obvious, let me stay in office. for a lot of other folks who saw it differently at the grassroots level, there was genuine

frustration with the way in which the republican party had ceased to deliver and stand for the ideals that they had fought for for years in the trenches. and i absolutely understand that frustration, but what was taken was, frankly, incitement of the crowd. sedition is what you would call it. i think that's what president trump did in riling up that crowd saying, let's go to the capitol and put a stop to this. you have genuine frustration, some of it warranted by people at the grassroots level, obviously some of it taken way too far by some of the nut jobs that storms the capitol, but you've got a lot of self-preservation, and, frankly, caudifying and just you pushing ahead by people in office because they want to keep their jobs. >> kasie is with us. you have a question, kasie?

>> not the first person to make this argument. we've had a lot of these conversations for a long time now, and there have been a handful of you willing to say these things about your own party. the thing is, one of the things y'all have in common is that most of you aren't actually elected republicans anymore because the voters, frankly, are with trump, and the acknowledgment has been that you really can't convince them otherwise. i guess my question is -- i mean, i hear you, i take the premise of your book, but what's to actually be done about it? we haven't seen anyone demonstrate that they can win an election. no republican was able to beat donald trump in a huge primary field, and look where that got us. >> yeah. but these are sort of the viscititudes of democratic rule. you'll have ups and downs crazy moments, the founding fathers talked about that. we're in one of those crazy moments. what was incumbent upon me with

an elected official with 20 years' time span from congress, to government, back to congress is what i saw to be true north. it cost me my job in congress, and to all your guests who spoke out earlier. flake and corcoran in the senate, me in the house. but that time is beginning to abate. if you look at the fact that trump isn't on twitter the way he was, a lot of things are going to dissipate that voice, and the question now is where do we go? i think that's with some degree of authority based on the way i spoke up when i was in office and based on those 25 years, that those of us who have seen this movie play ought to speak out as directly and forcefully as we can, and ultimately that's what this book is about. >> former governor and candidate mark sanford, thank you. i appreciate it. his new book titled "two roads

diverged." it's coming out this fall. gene robinson, we're going to give you a question. we're running out of time. the thing i find most fascinating, gene, about mark sanford's story is he made a personal mistake. it would have finished most political careers, but mark fought his way back. he got re-elected to congress despite that, and then he got voted out for only voting with donald trump 92% of the time. that tells you not only about the personality cult, it tells you where the republican party is. >> mark sanford is a genuine conservative, so obviously there is no place for him in the republican party, full stop. that's just where it is. i hope people listen to his message. i'm not optimistic that they will, but from the whole morning, can i say one other thing? keir simmons, that interview with putin, is hero of the week. what an amazing, insightful

interview. he's given us a lot to chew on as we wait for president biden's meeting with president putin. >> yeah. and he really laid out clearly what president biden has in front of him as he goes into that meeting. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it's monday, june 15th, and we start this morning with breaking news. while you were sleeping, president biden arrived in brussels for a high stakes nato summit, the first of two back-to-back meetings with european leaders before he sits down with russian president vladimir putin. i want to bring in nbc chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell. she is traveling with president biden in brussels, nbc senior international correspondent keir simmons. he is in moscow where you just heard