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president putin. more advisors than what we're seeing here. the larger meeting has been going on for about 40 minutes. >> throughout the meeting and even after we know that breaking of bread, so to speak, no shared meal between the two world leaders, president biden will not be alone with putin one on one at any time. afterward a pair of separate solo news conferences are expected to take place. vladimir putin going first, then president biden. very different from the last meeting between vladimir putin and a u.s. president. that one was very different. >> we have seen jockeying this morning with members of the press, we have seen the white house looking to clarify a comment that was made silently, a head nod community. the pool reporter in the room says president biden looked at

her and nodded yes. the white house quick to say he was not answering that question, but saying that he was just answering another question. second session with translation happening, more people in the room, dpb, right? >> yeah, there is several people in the room now. we don't see lloyd austin, our defense secretary in there, but they want to talk arms control, cyberas well. they have antonio who was a negotiator, and also most like i

will be the kremlin to extend that treaty, but what are the terms. the fact, also now, cyber which is harder to verify. you heard president biden saying verify but trust, a flip of the famous ronald reagan saying. but fact is sha cybersere so hard to identify as we just awe in the last hour talking to fire eye. and they made that same point. it was not the just government. o our defenses are not as good as they ought to be. also victoria newlin was a thorn in the side of vladimir putin in

the uprising revolution in ukraine in 19 -- 2013 and 2014. at one point she informs kiev in the square passing out bread to the protestors. she was an assistant secretary. her phone was hacked and there was audio released about her saying a very crude thing, somewhat embarrassing to a lip low matt, but it made her antiputin in the diplomatic world. so ukraine is certainly going to be part of this conversation as well. and we know that president zelenski wants to have a meeting in the oval office. that's what he wanted all along. that is the leverage he had. he has been promised that by joe

biden, but not what he wanted, he wanted to be first and he got a brub back from the president when zelenski was walking in that ukraine would get into nato, well it takes a long time, and the president was asked about ukraine getting in and they said no, they have not proved they combatted corruption they have a lot more to do. so you're seeing a broader conversation. and what had been put out also earlier is usually is starts with the broader group and then narrows down to the group of four, this time it was the reverse. >> the or yog if i is so important down to who arrived first, who speaks first, and how all of this plays out. what is your understanding of how it plays out?

being allowed to give the first news conference coming out of that. what is your understanding of how all of this was choreographed? >> i think it is interesting that vladimir putin spoke to they assembled pool. they pushed in to try and block the u.s. press pool. he was first to speak and say that he wanted a successful meeting, and then president biden certainly felt he had to say something to he said, from best we could hear, as i said, it is always better to meet face to face, i'm paraphraing there. so he got the first and then they sat there somberly. some of the warmth that you normally saw with putin engaging donald trump, even at that press conference, giving him a soccer ball. and the white house wanted a bad clean up.

talking to some experts, some you will hear from in a moment, that felt that was not the best strategy. that this gives putin the first to put in his points first. and after all of his false statements joe biden is obligated to start his press conference with a defense to be on defense right away, rebutting him and taking a lot of time up. repeating or responding to vladimir putin's false claims. >> let's bring in monica alba who is with us. keir simmons, are you getting anything from pro-kremlin russian media? any details that their side might leak out the first part of

this discussion? >> no leaks like that right now, but it is fascinating to watch the russian media with a timer on the screen counting up the minutes of the meeting. i think that tells you something about how they're judging this in terms of how much time president putin spends with president biden and how that reflects on president putin's reputation. and i was looking at the timing so far, and this narrow meeting, which obviously was president biden, secretary blinken, putin, and the foreign minister, that lasted around 93 minutes we believe. and i was just reflecting, that's just a little longer than they were expecting, but not much. it looks like someone in there is keeping this on time. and i suspect that won't be president putin who likes to talk and talk and talk. i was just reflecting on our interview with president putin. at that interview, it ran for 82

minutes. so a similar amount of time, a similar meeting with the president, and remembering during that interview that as we talked about, you know, president putin presents you with a flurry of agencies, claims, and counter claims. we had to think very hard about this. you hear claim after claim that you want to fact check, at the same time thinking i want to move the conversation on i don't want to be stuck in this rabbit hole. that's the kind of judgment you have to make all of the time. i expect, we don't know what is happening in the room, but if president biden is trying to confront him, they're probably trying to judge how far down you move and argument. people that studied the transcript of our interview may have noticed that we were given an hour and when we got to about an hour i said to president

putin we have more to talk about, i need more of your time, and he said quite characteristically. and he said i'm in charge so you can decide how much more time. and we got 25 minutes more. that is part of the picture of how the americans are having to navigate the conversation if it is going anything like the conversation that i had with president putin. i think another observation, too, guys, is talking about trying to put a floor under issues with russia about trying to just get deals done, i think you have to be realistic about it. what happened here is that president putin will agree to some deals, if you like, for example we mentioned the u.s. ambassador.

he will agree to some things, and some other things, but don't think that will be it. his playbook is to attack or threaten, deny it, and negotiate. and it seems incredibly unlikely to me that you won't see russia coming back, pushing again, threatening again, and part-time are pointing out that president biden will want to send a message that if you do this, we'll do that, and trying to put a fire wall in place particularly on cyber. but the idea for some in washington has taken hold, the biden administration can pivot to china, and put russia aside. i don't think that is realistic. particularly when you think about the relationship with china. in some ways you have to think about the jewel and not just try

to separate those but understand that relationship between those two country social security a challenge in and of itself. >> one of the shouted questions that was ignored is "can you trust putin on cyber." but the issue will be front and center in all of these talks. talk to us about the big picture strategy. what is the strategy that he is in there with and what is he hoping to accomplish as a baseline floor? >> absolutely in terms of cyberer security and ransomware attacks, it is a bulk and major topic of discussion here today. probably on the top of the list, an agenda with all of the other items including ukraine aggression, human rights aggressions, he doesn't see

conflict with russia, but when it comes to these activities online, everything that we have seen, an increase of the cyber intrusions, that if putin does not agree to intervene, stop, or help abate this that the lust respond in kind. so that is something where we're waiting to see if there is additional sanctions for instance they are sweeping. will something else will done in recent terms. the white house is weighing if it is wise to try to respond to this summit. they said not likely. they would wait to see how the talks go first before deciding and giving russia an exclusive.

initially he said he might be open to, which could be an exchange with the cyber criminals. when our own peter alexander asked president biden if he would be willing to discuss, he said yes, but the white house walked it back. saying we're absolutely not doing that at this time. lowering expectations now as the leaders are in their second hour of meetings. we're into the third hour of the senate in general. another important thing to remember here, guys, it was president biden that sought this meeting. he wanted to have it first, and of course it is on very different terms from the one the two leaders had ten years ago when joe biden was vice president and vladimir putin was prime minister. this is their first time meeting on the stage as counter parts

and presidents of their respective countcountries. >> thank you, we appreciate that. i want to bring in now john brennan and senior national security intelligence analyst. it is great to see you onset. >> good morning. >> this is the first we have heard from you since the developments started coming in. we're now in about two minutes entering what we think is hour two of the larger group meeting. we talked about who is in the room. what is your assessment of what we have seen so far? >> i think it is going according to schedule. >> that's all we really know, right? >> yes, and i think it is important that president biden have the opportunity to sit down with him, look him in the eye, and talk about what his expectations are and what red lines are. i think the first 90 minutes he wanted it to be a small group so he could lay down clear signals. now it is being expanded to other experts in the room. i think it is important for

president bide ton let vladimir putin know that in response to some of the very provocative actions, president biden is willing to risk escalation. i think that is one of the things that has been absent to date. you look at ukraine, crimea, cyber. and the united states has been reluctant. joe biden doesn't want things to us to escalate. but if he thinks he can get the united states not to respond, he will continue to push the envelope. i think joe biden wants to convince vladimir putin that he is willing to escalate. and he will not just turn another cheek when russia engages in these actions. >> putin has to believe him when he says that. >> that's right, yes. >> and joe biden i have worked with extensively. he saying big nations can't bluff. you under mine your own credibility. so i think joe bide listen be

very careful in terms of what he says, but he will make it very clear that what he says is what he means, and that includes on the cyber front. so much depends on what we have been able to do domestically. does that message get diluted? coming out of four years of president trump where some people said there was a sympathetic message. >> yes, that was because of the former administration and trump, but i think if there is an issue that transcends that divide, it is russian aggression. they are existing in this country and they're continuing to carry out the cyber assaults

and attacks. i think there is a consensus about pushing back against biden. no one wants to trip a wire, but at the same time you have to be strong. >> you have been outspoken. there is comparison points. the timing of the more intimate meeting. we know it was an hour and 33 minutes. in this instance it was like two hours and 23 minutes. there is also how both bilaterals started in 2018 when you and i were there versus now, watch. >> the u.s. and russian relations have a lot of issues accumulating. and i hope that our meeting will be productive. >> thank you, as i said outside, i think it is always better to meet face to face. >> first of all, mr. president, i would like to congratulate you

on a really great world cup. one of the best ever. >> the tone is obviously starkly different. what do you read into the differences here and how should people understand that. >> first of all, joe biden is someone that has been engaged on the foreign policy scene for about half a century. so unlike a trump, he was a novice, an amateur, and he stumbled through the issues. >> and he ran on being an amateur, right? putin knew that he didn't know what he was talking about. and joe biden is deeply educated on these issues and he can talk about them in a way that donald trump could not. >> i believe that andrea

mitchell has a question. >> in contrast to the last summit, there is no more americans, there was any knowledge among u.s. officials about a secret kremlin source? how would we ever know what the two men talks about in that one on one meeting with just just a kremlin translator? >> that is the question that i think many of us have. what was discussed between donald trump and vladimir putin in that very private meeting. i don't know if it was known what was discussed, but i think the relationship was a very, very curious and concerning one. i think it troubled many of us and i think it continues to as vladimir putin continues to speak so highly of donald trump. i think joe biden wants to make

sure he has tony blinken with them. that they can be there and talking with putin. i don't know what was discussed, but i have my deep concerns of what was discussed between those two in helsinki in that very private setting. >> we have information we want to share with you regarding the timing of this. we know, as you have been talking about, the expanded part of this meeting is happening now. there is a timing distinction here. the note from the guidance from the white house official is that the smaller meeting was ending and the bigger meeting was beginning. that expanded meeting did not start until the top of this hour, 10:00 eastern time, that has been going on for about 20 minutes. that mean there's is an interim

time period between the smaller meeting and larger meeting of almost 45 minutes. i say all of this to say when we don't know what they're talking about, we know at least when they're talking. we want to be clear with you on the timing of this. what would have happened in those interim 45 minutes. i might imagine there would have been a debrief before they started that bigger meeting. perhaps a break. the white house said there will be time for both leaders to take breaks. not like lunch, but to go. >> doug: whatever they need to do. give us some insight. >> i think it is all of the above, they wanted a break, and it is very important for president biden and secretary blinken to talk with the team about what was the tone and atmosphere. what adjustments do they need to make. what are the points they should emphasize?

what did they need to take note of? it is not just debriefing, but do they need to make adjustments in their planned engagement. i think it is very important to have that type of discussion. i'm sure that putin did the same thing probably to a lesser degree with his people, but i do think that is something that president biden likes to engage with his close advisors, i think they like to make sure they're on the same sheet of music. >> the clock ticking about 23 minutes in. >> when i first started covering them, it was about gorbichov. now it is about signer. what is the increased threat and

difficulty. it is in the context of arms control. >> i think that the message that president biden wants to send is that russia needs to be accountable for their actions. those directed by president putin, those they're engaged with, but those that come from the organized russian criminal gangs. those enterprises engaged in these cyber attacks and also against the government. and he wants to make sure it is known. whether or not that will be a type of progress for discussions about what can be done to try to control this great proliferation of cyber activity and attacks is still to be learned, but i think they want to understand that this continued expansion of these cyber attacks are critical infrastructure. they are tripping wires that will require president biden to

respond in a very, i think, forceful manner. we have capabilities on the cyber front that we have not used. i think president biden has to decide what type of offensive actions he might want to take in response to these provocations. >> director brennan, the terms that we heard were predictability and stability, that is something their seeking. from the argument that he made to our colleague, it is the u.s. that destabilized parts of the middle east. when he brings those up in a meeting, what does the u.s. say to the issue of stability and predictability in places like the middle east. >> i think president biden will be very candid in terms of acknowledging that the middle east and south asia are very difficult regions of the world. in the course of several administrations there has been a number of attempts to bring that stability and predictability, but places have their own course

of developments. i don't think he will engage in a debate, that will be not productive. he will stay with his talking points, but he will make sure that putin understands that biden is in charge now, he is in control and he is moving forward over the course of his administration. there will be a continuity of effort and how the united states will respond to these crisis. it's a different day. biden wanted to look in putin's eyes and tell him that. >> that's what he is doing as we speak. we could talk another 45 minutes, and we will, here on msnbc about this. president biden and president putin sitting down face to face

for this historic summit. right now they're joining by policy advisors and aids. coming up, we're talking to michael mcfall who was in the room to help prep the president ahead of this discussion about the landmines that biden needs to avoid. >> both leaders will have perhap separate news conferences. why some are raising redflags about that strategy. our special coverage continues live from geneva straight ahead. s live from geneva straight ahead. r workforce overnight out of convenience, or necessity. we can explore uncharted waters, and not only make new discoveries, but get there faster, with better outcomes. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions, vmware helps companies navigate change-- meeting them where they are, and getting them where they want to be. faster.

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we're wac with our special coverage of a summit in geneva, and vladimir putin made it clear he brushed up on u.s. domestic politics. he tried to change the subject with keir simmons to talk about the deadly capitol riot. >> it is a topic that president biden knows is coming up today. let's take a look at the challenges that putin is facing at home. there is the worsening covid surge, ukraine's push to join nato, inflation, economic challenges, crack downs on journalists, and an increaingly

viable vailing of alexi navalny. he is the most high profile putin acritic that survived an assassination attempt. >> but there is a notable development yesterday ahead of these talks. navalny's wife and daughter say they were able to see him briefly in prison and it raises the question about the timing. very interesting timing ahead of the summit. >> can we bring in richard engle. one of the most interesting pieces to this was the burn from navalny from prison. calling him a grandpa.

it is something that he denies, right? it is almost a domestic lifeline. it is saying yes, he is a worthy adversary. you put him on the same level. talk about what it means back at home? >> for vladimir putin this summit is very important and it is getting a lot of coverage on russian television showing that putin is back, russia is back, that russia, as a great power, is back. throughout the covid pandemic and we're still in the covid pandemic even though it is receding in the united states, putin was not scene. he went into one of the most

tightly secure covid bubbles around the world and he apparently disappeared from public view for about a year. and events like this didn't take place. there wasn't an opportunity for vladimir putin to be seen on the world stage by other world leaders. there was virtual summits held by the world health organization. but this event didn't happen. that was something that vladimir putin didn't have. one of the big cards that he plays is that he is the most respected russian leader. he is taken seriously around the world, that he is feared, that he is a great chess or poker player. that he is a great adversary around the world that people are afraid of. he likes that image. and he is now using that image and using this summit to forward that image. and if you -- you talked earlier

about security, just to show these kind of events were not happening, but they are very much happening now in geneva, not very far from andrea's position, this is what geneva looks like on the shores of lake geneva. the city is shut down because of security concerns. there are no cars here. the roads look like a racetrack, there is patrol boats. the fact that the city has been taken over by the summit and shut down shows the degree of importance that the city, that the world, is giving now to the president of the united states and the president of russia. he is facing a very bad economy, effectively he has been in hiding because of covid. >> richard, earlier in the program we were talking to ian bremer who says that russia is a power in decliep. let's talk about some of the

stories that you covered. you will be able to see russia as a thorn in this side. if it is to destabilize syria, to try to bring nato into the fold, russia has been able to disrupt america's agenda in both of those places. >> but those are places that are both right next door to russia. this summit is far more important for you. i think that president biden wants to lay down markers and say that is unacceptable especially if you go into critical infrastructure. there is world war i style bunkers. they are concerned they could

cross the border. they went on the border, the forces, the coastguard, and they showed me russian patrol boats that were menacing and not very far off of the coast. so for the ukraine and the baltics this is a very real threat. but in terms of the larger picture right now, where the united states is, emerging from covid, it's more about china. what we saw with nato, what we saw with the g 7 was effectively under u.s. pressure. the world's democraies more or less starting a new cold war with china. now with the end of it they're wrapping up with a warning to putin with a pass through visit to vladimir putin, and he is absolutely relishing in all of this attention. >> richard, thank you. >> let's bring in former u.s.

ambassador to russia michael mcfall and msnbc international affairs analyst. he has been with vladimir putin in a number of meetings including at least one with joe biden when he was vladimir putin -- vice president. it is not a symmetrical meeting, give us a criminology of who is in the room. >> first of all it is a big meeting, putin usually likes very small meetings. the first time president obama met with hem he demanded just a couple. usually military officers are not there. that signals they want to talk

about strategy and it is very important in that kind of a discussion. >> who else is in the room that might signal from the russian side they might want to speak about it. >> i didn't see our special advisor for that, brett mcgurk. he might be, it's also important who is not there. general patrochev is not there. he is the equivalent of the head of the national security counsel. he is not part of the delegation, but the foreign policy advisor in the kremlin is there and he is a much more, not friendly, but a former u.s. ambassador, he deals with the americans. i don't want to overread it, but that is very interesting to me

that he is there. >> that is what we used to do on the parades, see who has survived. let's talk about victoria who was a thorn in vladimir putin's side during the uprisings. >> i have heard russians to her face disparage her. she is pretty tough and she knows how to take that. she is the only woman to the best of my knowledge in this on either side, but i think it is a very good perspective. it is a signal in my view that she is the point person. in china it's at the nfc. everyone in the government knows

that curt is the point person for china. i expect that victoria will be a point on russia. >> and the significance that there is separate news conferences, vladimir putin goes first, joe biden goes second. is that smart? >> well, it is, clean up is good. but then you're also responding to whatever putin says, right? i think it is a double edged toward. if you go first you can get on your plane and go home. if you go second you can set the agenda. if he wants to set it in a negative way you have to respond to his whataboutism. if you reach the russian press, they want to come out of this with the headline being we established a stable and predictable relationship. all of the things that he has done in the run up to say let's

forget about crimea and syria andcyber attacks and just go in a normal way, that's what he wants and i think he will be gentle with the press conference. >> what do you think might come out of it? i know they say we're not expecting any deliverables, but maybe sending our prisoners back or something on the aide to syrian refugees? >> a big win for president biden would be to say tough things to vladimir putin and tell us about that. i think that is number one. on the other side, i think there will be strategic talks. it is one thing to say you're going to talk, another to have an agreement. but getting the ambassadors back in place is a deliver able. they want to keep humanitarian

assistance going into syria. that is desperately needed. >> nobody knows the subject better, thank you so very much. back to you, hallie. >> thank you so much. our thanks to the ambassador as well. hanging over everything that happens, memories of the lath meesing with the american president. how the biden team is trying to avoid the pitfalls. >> and we're going to drill down next on the military concerns that both leaders are considering at their first face to face meeting. we're live in geneva watching for new developments. don't go anywhere. developments don't go anywhere.

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president biden and president putin are meeting, there is a shadow hanging over it, and that shadow is donald trump. there is perils and pitfalls. >> there will not be a joint news conference. there will not be a one-on-one meeting between president biden and putin that we know of, anything could happen, but not that we know of taking place the way it did with president trump and vladimir putin. >> to this day we still don't know what specifically what they talked about. only the translator was in the room. we know that president biden will be taking a more hard lined approach with vladimir putin in contrast to former president

trump. >>. >> i have great info. president putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today. >> today, the united states is rolling over in the face of russia's aggressive actions. interfering with our elections, cyber attacks, poisoning it's citizens, is over. i responded directly and proportionally to russia's interference on our elections. >> they think it is russia, president putin just said it's not russia. i will say this, i don't see any reason that i think it would be. >> do you think vladimir putin is a killer? >> yeah, i do. >> joining us now is rick stengel who also served as a member of the biden transition team. angela stint was national

intelligence officer for russia and eurasia at the russian counsel. and also a former spokes person for the u.s.'s mission to the u.n. thank you all for being here this morning. here to set the table for where we are, we're 49 minutes into the broader, expanded bilat. we talked about what we think is happening behind closed doors. we are just getting an image, i should note, from the kremlin pool. correct me if i'm wrong. it is from russian media. there's another picture we show you as well as we get that turned around. as this image shows, this is you. you have been in this room. talk about the optics and your expectations as far as the choreography as this goes on. >> first of all, i feel for you. you have so many hours to fill

and no news to fill it with. >> can i just say, in defense of the cable news ecosystem, you are not wrong. we don't know what's happening in the room. but it is news. the news is happening behind those doors that we keep showing in that villa. it is significant that they are meeting at all. we do know some stuff about timing and how long they talked and the way the white house officials have tried to clarify things. continue, rick. i want to note, this is the picture we were talking about. this is our first look, our very first look. this is from the kremlin pool. this is from russian media. let's be very clear. as to what is happening inside the room in that broader meeting. you see both delegations on either side of the long table. that's typically how these things look. the russian side has a couple more folks than the u.s. side. that's also something that we knew was going to happen. rick, i will turn it over to you. >> yes, the bad news is that you really never know what happens

in those rooms. yes, there are note takers, but it's never really divulged. that's what's important about diplomacy. i would make one point, just a quick point. you talked about the general being in that meeting, which i think is interesting. i would slightly differ from mike to say it's less about arms control. but he was the author of a doctrine, which is a modern idea in russia that military conflict is now not about kinetic work, it's about cyber work. he is the author of the cyber strategy. there's been a lot of talk about that. i think the russians will talk about arms control all day long. what they don't want to talk about is cyber. part of it is because they don't really control it. russia cyber warfare is a distributed network. it's not centralized. putin doesn't say, i want you to

affect the u.s. election. but they have that troll farm in saint petersburg which operates on its own. they have this network of outlaws that putin doesn't always control. i bid my hat to biden because he's going to bring this up. they don't always have a way to say we can reckon with this. >> one of the advantages that authoritarians have is they have stayed in power so long. putin has sat across many american presidents. although joe biden does know vladimir putin both as the former chair of the senate foreign relations committee and as the former vice president, this time is different. i'm curious to get your thoughts, what are the mistakes of past american administrations that this administration has learned from? how heavily do you think the former trump administration and the trump factor plays into what is taking place today?

>> i think one of president biden's main reasons for meeting with president putin is really to remove russia as a toxic domestic issue that it was during the trump administration. and to move on from that and focus on russia as a foreign policy issue. 20 years ago today, to the very day, president bush met with president putin for first time. during the press conference answered a question saying that he looked into president putin's soul. obviously, not a wise thing to have said as he later said. we know what happened in the 2018 press conference you have featured here. i think the lessons they have learned is why they are not having the joint press conference. they have learned lessons. president biden has a lot of experience in foreign policy and dealing with putin. he doesn't want to be upstaged by him. >> look ahead for us to what

happens post summit. we don't know when specifically it's going to wrap up. we know when it does, we will hear first from president putin and then from president biden in these sort of dueling press conferences. not at the same time. one after the other. even after that, there has been analysis about concern that the biden administration after this summit might try to press pause, freeze where they are with russia because of the confrontation and the discussion around china, right? they have to walk and chew gum at the same time is the point. look ahead to the challenges for the biden team after they get on the flight home from geneva. >> sure. the fact that you have these two press conferences is a double-edged sword. you have the pros of nobody focusing on details like is the handshake long enough, is the smile long enough? nobody can embarrass the other side. the bad side is the united

states will likely have to chase whatever president putin says to make sure the agenda is said, that everything is truthful, the key messages are out there. in terms of looking ahead, i don't think president biden expects that putin is going to change overnight. the importance is that this sets the tone for the next four years. after the last four years, which have been marched by bad communication, bowing to president putin. it's setting the tone and creating this space for productive issues. the thing here that i want to mention is that at the end of the day, you've got russia angry that the united states acts like the superpower that is the superpower and the u.s. angry at russia's nefarious behavior. that's going to remain. the key to look forward to is taming that behavior just a little bit and making space for productive issues. >> thanks for all of you for

joining us. besides cybersecurity, we are expecting national security to be a hot topic discussed in the meetings between president biden and president putin. we are joined by helene cooper. it's no coincidence president biden stopped with our nato allies. the talk coming out of nato, focused on russia. it's not seen that way from -- focused on china, not russia. apologies. from russia's perspective, they still see nato as a thorn in its side as it expands potentially eastward to include ukraine. >> yeah, thanks for having me. you are absolutely right. nato is a huge thorn in russia's side. look at the geography and you will see why. nato -- ever since the collapse of the soviet union, nato has

been expanding to right next door to russia, literally. imagine if we had russia -- a russian sphere of influence expanding to include canada and mexico. we would be freaking out. which is why vladimir putin reacted the way he has, it's part of the reason why you see annexing crimea. it's why he amassed troops athe ooh -- at the ukrainian border. they withdraw 10,000. u.s. intelligence officials and defense officials say they think russia has upwards 80,000 troops at the ukrainian border. not because -- not necessarily because vladimir putin wants to invade ukraine. he just wants to make sure that nato doesn't make any additional moves towards bringing ukraine into the alliance. ukraine is not a member of nato at this point.

you saw zelensky asking for putin to give a clear yes or no about whether it will get in. while they have made promises, the second nato makes a move towards bringing ukraine formally into that alliance, the expectation is that russia will go for want of a better word -- i don't want -- not explode, but will react. then you could see some sort of military incursion into ukraine or some other sort of crisis. there's a lot of -- a lot of this is about the fact that over the past 20 years since the collapse of the soviet union, nato has extended. the alliance is right at moscow's front door. that's something that vladimir putin does not feel comfortable about. >> one of the many topics they will discuss throughout the course of the day. helene cooper, thanks. >> thanks to you and andrea

mitchell and all of you for joining us on our special coverage. our next hour, we will be joined by senator shaheen who is warning putin is expanding his influence and it should be a wake-up call for the west. more coming up after the break. more coming up after the break our past for power, we can harness the energy of the tiny electron. we can create new ways to connect. rethinking how we communicate to be more inclusive than ever. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions, vmware helps companies navigate change. faster. vmware. welcome change. delicia: this is where all our recycling is sorted -- 1.2 million pounds every day, helping to make san francisco the greenest big city in america. but that's not all you'll find here. there are hundreds of good-paying jobs,