i suspect you are as well. >> we are. hans nichols thank you very much for that. to this point, that does underscore the difference of wealth in our policy and created these billionaires out there doing this. i'm interested to see if the politics of this develop in unexpected ways. thanks for getting up "way too early" with us on this tuesday morning. don't go anywhere. "morning joe" starts right now. >> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, july 6th. we're following a number of developing stories this morning, including concern over how far u.s. vaccination rates have fallen. is there anything new the white house can do to convince the unvaccinated to get the shot? and today marks six months since the attack on the u.s. capitol. we're going to take a look at

how law enforcement is doing when it comes to bringing those involved to justice. first, search and rescue efforts expanded significantly in surfside, florida on monday after officials knocked down the rest of the partially collapsed condo. >> we're able to report that the search and rescue team has been able to search all sections of the grid on the collapse following the building demolition. now that the entire area is safe to search. and so the teams have now removed over 4.8 million pounds of concrete from the pile. >> four more bodies were discovered, raising the number of those killed officially to 28. 117 people remain unaccounted for. nearly two weeks after half of the champlain towers south condo collapsed in the middle of the night.

search efforts were hampered throughout the day as thunderstorms and strong winds hit the area thanks to tropical storm elsa as it approached -- as it continued to approach the state. joining us now from surfside, correspondent vaughn hillyard. what more can you tell us this morning? >> reporter: this was a two-prong concern, one demolition of the building, that was successful. the second part was the impact of tropical storm elsa. yesterday afternoon around 4:00 eastern is when we first saw the outer bands of that storm hit here at the surfside coast. you can see from the video, strong gusty winds as rain began to downpour here on this area. there were at least two different times yesterday afternoon, evening, that we are aware of in which the rescue teams had to come to a halt. they had to suspend their operations, primarily because of concerns of lightning and thunder. this is a situation where the

rescue teams are able to, despite the rain, continue on. but if wind gusts get up to excess of 30 miles per hour or if lightning becomes a factor, that will continue to cause halts here in this operation. and when we're talking about these numbers, it's now 13 days since the initial collapse and just 28 bodies have been recovered at this time. there's still 117 individuals unaccounted for. the good part about this is, the mayor insists they've been able to reach all parts of not only that building that was demolished on sunday but also the rubble from the initial collapse. 4.8 million tons of cement have been removed they're able to effectively tunnel underneath that rubble as well because there was a portion of it that we are told by officials they were not able to access the first 11 days after the collapse because the rubble was key to holding up the structure. with that building down, they're

able to make advancements. the concern is there's no rain at this hour but you saw the winds yesterday morning and that's expected to return this morning into tomorrow. >> thank you for that report. let's go to meteorologist, bill karins. what will the impact of tropical storm elsa be not only on recovery efforts but overall? >> this storm is with us for the next 36 hours, mika p p it's going to move up the west coast to florida. i'm concerned with storm surge and isolated tornados those are my biggest concerns over the florida peninsula, over the next 24 to 36 hours. surfside i don't think it'll be worse than what we saw yesterday. it'll be similar at times during the day today. the latest details from the national hurricane center we just got the update. the storm is close to key west right now.

this is a small storm and key west, the wind gusts are 35 to 40 miles per hour right now. it's mostly a storm surge issue, not a wind event. so here's the forecast path. paralegaling the florida west coast, coming on shore near tampa later tonight after mid night and then moving up to cedar key and the gainesville area. maximum winds inland shouldn't be an issue and then tomorrow, into tomorrow night, the storm races along the northeastern coastal areas like cape cod, long island, virginia beach and norfolk. so it'll be squalls and rain for those areas. as far as florida goes. if we're going to have any problems from water or get damage it would be when we get the high tide cycle later on. sarasota, possibly to fort

myers, this is a region of florida very flood prone to storm surge, 3 to 5 feet is not a huge ordeal but there could be water in areas you don't want them. i don't think we'll have wind damage, this is the maximum winds, 60 you get minor damage, 4 to 40 miles per hour, do nothing. eight inches of rain could also cause problems. if we get tornados here's the areas of concern, everywhere in yellow on this map, a good chunk of florida. i think this is a minor storm impact but we don't want to let our guard down. there is a chance it could strengthen tonight into a hurricane. >> bill, thank you for that update. today marks six months since the attack on the u.s. capitol. more than 140 officers were injured in that attack. and while more than 500 people have been arrested, the fbi is still working to identify some

300 more, including whomever is responsible for placing pipe bombs outside the offices of both the republican and democratic national committees. the struggle reflects the massive scale of the investigation and how much work still needs to be done. in the face of an effort by some republican lawmakers to rewrite what happened that day. as the a.p. points out, officials made few arrests on the day of the riot because they were focused on clearing the capitol and protecting lawmakers. however officials have been helped by amateur detectives using crowd sourcing methods to help identify rioters. more than two dozen defendants have pleaded guilty so far. one woman has been sentenced, though she avoided jail time. here is part of the recent new york times video investigation showing the moment the capitol was breached.

>> the capitol is now surrounded. rioters haven't made it inside yet, but around the time the mob on the east pushed forward, rioters on the west were making a pivotal move. this scaffolding was erected for inauguration of joe biden. it gives access to an upper level and dozens of doors and windows. three police lines guard that route. but at ground level officers are so overwhelmed that just a few cover this crucial access point. several proud boys see the weakness. >> take the stairs! take the stairs! >> proud boys start fighting the police and with others in the mob, they push through the line.

>> they have stormed the capitol building. look at this. >> over several minutes it's a brutal fight on these steps. at one point the rioters are held back. but they make a final push up the flight of stairs. at the top they scuffle again with a small group of officers. who give in after barely a minute. >> stop! >> the mob now has direct access to capitol entrances. >> i can't believe this is reality. we established this [bleep]. >> and hundreds more protesters

below surge forward. >> let's go! >> it's utter mayhem and it's about to be worse. the scene is filmed from countless angles allowing us to piece together moment by moment what comes next. a proud boys member uses a police shield he stole to bash in a window. at 2:13 p.m. the capitol is breached. joining us we have reporter for the associated press jonathan lemire. and associated editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. >> it's been six months now, obviously, jonathan lemire, the white house, joe biden, obviously trying to move

forward, obviously trying to get legislation passed, but stubbornly a lot of the conspiracy theories that were borne out of that riot and that insurrection stay with us. and unfortunately the president has to deal with the republicans every day that are in united states congress who still believe that these were just, quote, tourists. we've heard that from extremists in the senate, extremists in the house, and very little push back from leadership. >> joe, these images are both hard to watch and essential to watch. to truly understand what happened that day. there certainly has been such a consistent effort from many, not all but many, republicans to whitewash what happened that day, to turn the page, ignore it, downplay it. you see this footage and that

becomes impossible. it's so important for the work "the new york times" did last week putting it out and we're showing it again this morning. just really -- it's just -- you have a physical reaction to it. your point is well made, joe. in terms of the balancing act the white house has to take here. they, of course, we know that president biden campaigned on it, he's governed on it, does want to work across the aisle, he wants to work with republicans, he's still a believer in the institution of the congress, particularly the senate. he's a believer that congress needs to come together, show it can work. republicans and democrats can come together and take care of the american people as this nation competes with rising autocracies across the globe that democracies can work in light of what happened on january 6th. we see the infrastructure deal seeming like it's coming

together but there needs to be a focus condemning what happened. they supported the committee to investigate it, they support the select committee, and they recognize how damaging, what a dark day this was for this nation's democracy, and they don't want to lose sight of it as much as they want to work with the republicans and m sol of the republicans have been willing to accept that olive branch but they're dealing with leadership and the rank and file that don't want to come to grips with that day, and don't want to accept donald trump's big election lie that started that day. how do you do both, work with republicans when so many don't believe you should be president. >> that's it there. here's another sign that this will become -- the stain on our history will be part of the election process.

many republicans across the country are preparing for upcoming midterm elections by focussing on the last election, the lie. "the washington post" reports that hundreds of gop candidates are endorsing as central messaging for their campaigns that former president trump really won the presidential election. reading from the post, quote of the nearly 700 republicans who have filed initial paperwork with the federal election commission to run next year for either the u.s. senate or the house of representatives, at least a third have embraced trump's false claims about his defeat. of those republicans, more than 130 are sitting lawmakers who voted not to certify president biden's election win on january 6th. elected officials who spoke out against the conspiracy theory like liz cheney and secretary of

state brad raffensperger, have become key for challengers. there are in forcing that lie on constituents or potential constituents. >> i don't believe they're stupid enough to belief the big lie but they are using it. it's a conspiracy theory born out of the belief that if my candidate doesn't win that i don't recognize the candidate. that's not democracy, that's what we see in tyrannical governments. that's what we see across the globe in not even democracies, but gene robinson, we have now -- korg this one, one out of three republicans seeking office so far are post-democracy

candidates who are liberals who will not recognize the last election because they don't like who won that last election. here we are, and we have members of congress who refuse to come out and say that joe biden is president of the united states. that he won legitimately. and we have, of course, talk show hosts on the trump right who do the same thing. but this is an anti-democracy movement and we're now seeing that, actually, people are running for office hoping they'll get elected by running against free elections, by running against democracy. >> right. and these anti-democracy candidates believe they're speaking to anti-democracy constituents. they believe that's what their party's base wants and it raises the question, how do you do politics as we know it, do

elections as we know them when one of our two major parties is -- believes -- totally believes the big lie and it's not just cynical leadership and cynical elected officials, but there is ready and willing audience and base for the lie. and so, you know, you've got liz cheney, you have adam kinzinger, a few other republican members of congress who are realistic who believe in truth, who believe in democracy. but what about the rest of the republican party? i mean, this is an astonishing and horrifying turn that our politics has taken. that we can't compete on a normal political playing field because one of our two parties

believes in a fictitious version of history that is poisonous and that is not going away. it's going to be perpetuated through the next cycle and keep being perpetuated until and unless republicans are completely wiped out in an election. unless there's a crushing defeat that perhaps causes the party to reform. but you have to be depressed about this perpetuation of the big lie and how it seems to be ready to go on and on and on. >> you really do. i can only hope, i can only hope, we can only hope as a nation that by the time we get to next november these democracy deiers will be defeated at the polls. we can only hope that main street republicans take control of their party once again and they champion smaller deficits, they champion balanced budgets,

they challenge -- or they champion reasonable, rational regulations, reasonable, rational taxes. that, you know, we need a small government party out there. we certainly don't have one right now. deficits and debts rose at the highest level ever during the trump administration. he was the biggest spending president in the history of the united states. i'd love for main street republicans to take control of that party again, mika. right now, though, if that's going to happen, they're going to have to push back on these democracy ddeniers. one out of three candidates, according to this report is a democracy denier. they are saying we won't accept the results of the last election if our guy didn't win. that's not a democracy. all right. that's a tyranny. that's what we supposedly fought against in the revolutionary

war. >> and they -- i don't think they understand how precious and fragile our democracy can be. and a large portion of our population, as liz cheney put it, has been misled. >> they're miss leading themselves, too. i'm sorry, mika, i didn't mean to interpret. those people, those 70%, they're misleading themselves, too. they could know the truth if they wanted to know the truth. they could go out and google and find out the lies they're reading on chinese cult conspiracy websites or that they're getting from russian disinformation campaigns or people who hate america, who want to undermine america, those people could find out that those lies are simply that, that they're conspiracy theories that were churned up to divide this country but they choose not to, mika. i think we have to go past

blaming the democracy deniers in washington d.c. or running for office, we have to look at the people who go along with this big lie. >> still ahead on "morning joe," new details about what cyber security experts are calling the single biggest global ransomware attack on record. including a new multimillion dollar demand from hackers. plus the latest on infrastructure negotiations, could we see a possible second bipartisan package? also ahead, a new warning from the former head of britain's mi-6 about withdrawing troops from afghanistan. you're watching "morning joe" -- >> mika, i apologize for interrupting you earlier. i want to hear what you have to say. do you have anything else? >> i have a lot. we'll get back to this topic. no worries at all.

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welcome back. r evil the russian language group behind the latest ransomware attack is now demanding $70 million to unlock the businesses affected by the hack. the group known for extorting $11 million from the meat processer jbs posted the demand on a dark website, it wants the if you finds in bitcoin and said if it received the money it will publish a decrypter key to unlock the victims' files. kasaya, a miami based it firm

that helps manage systems was the target of the attack. president biden said over the weekend, the u.s. would respond if it was determined that the kremlin is at all involved in the attack. sir alex younger the former head of the intelligence service mi-6 warned the u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan could bring a resurgence of al qaeda and increased threats. he spoke with the editor of sky news, deborah haynes. >> this is the danger if a group like al qaeda has a haven in afghanistan to plot acts of international terror. the september the 11th attacks on the united states prompted the u.s.-led invasion to combat the threat. but 20 years on as american and british forces draw down a former spy chief warned al qaeda

could rise again. >> if we're not there, seems to be their capacity to organization in afghanistan is going to go up and we know from history the risks of that and what might happen. >> he recalled what they found when they first entered afghanistan to hunt al qaeda. >> what we saw there was a level of terrorist infrastructure that could only have been imagined before we got there. training camps that would not have been out of place in a conventional military or special forces barracks. >> he therefore cautioned against neglecting afghanistan as happened when a previous russian intervention ended in 1989. >> it would be an enormous mistake for us to do that again. the reality is that there are groups there that have been very

successful in disrupting al qaeda and they are on the back foot but it would be wrong to declare they have gone away and they have the capacity to regenerate. >> these militants linked to islam state surrendered to afghan forces in 2018 but around 2000 remain at large. while al qaeda once significantly diminished has up to 500 fighters in the country. >> we have to think carefully in the absence of troops on the ground about how we deal with that. it's vital that we don't make the mistakes that we made last time around. >>ing what would be the consequences if the west did turn their back again. >> i think if terrorist groups were allowed to regenerate in afghanistan it would be more threats on the shores of our country and our allies. >> it's a prospect that's

painful to contemplate for soldiers like andy, left with mental and physical scars from their afghan service. one comfort was the belief they'd helped to keep the streets of the uk safer. now even that's in doubt. >> no words can describe how angry i am about it, knowing that the men we've lost -- the men and women we've lost over there, and it's just feels like we're going backwards at this point. the entire thing just felt like a waste of time. >> not completely. the taliban now know they'll suffer if afghanistan again becomes a launch pad for terrorism. the uk and allies hope a network they built to counter the threat can cope. deborah hanes, sky news. >> thanks to sky news and

deborah haynes for that report. >> jonathan lemire i thought it was interesting, the president was asked about afghanistan and his nonresponse i thought was newsworthy. >> he was asked the other day and sort of deflected the conversation about from it and said he wanted to talk about the impending july 4th celebration and the landmark in terms of america's approach to the virus. my colleagues in the press corps pressed jen psaki later on. she said he'll focus on this in due time. but it's reflective of questions the u.s. is facing now. by the day we're seeing reports of growing strength in the taliban there, they're regaining territory and influence faster than expected. we know that this has been joe biden's approach to afghanistan for a decade or more, well before he was in office, that he was looking for a draw down of troops there. he's keeping to his word as to

what he wants, even as he honors the agreement initially made by president trump, his predecessor to pull out. and there are questions, though, about the vacuum that will be left. nato forces leaving as well. the germans pulled out their troops the other day, the u.s. is doing so now, leaving, of course, a small presence to secure the embassies and such but largely pulling back. i think it is a moment where for the first time he took office he's facing real questions from both sides of the aisle about a consequential foreign policy decision and doing so as the anniversary from the september 11th attacks is on the horizon. still ahead, when it comes to china could strengths obscure weaknesses. plus the film world loses an icon. richard donner, the director of "lethal weapon" and the first

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>> welcome back. 36 past the hour. live shot of new york city on a beautiful morning. a few sports stories now. a day after shohei on tan knee made history being the first player selected to the all-star game as a position player and pitcher. yesterday it was confirmed that ohtani will hit and pitch in next week's game at colorado's coors field. the only remaining questions are about the logistics of ohtani's appearance at the midsummer classic and whether he'll start on the mound for the american league which would allow him to contribute both ways immediately as the pitcher and the designated hitter.

wow. two wimbledon now, yesterday at the all england club was the last time we'll see all 16 womens and mens fourth round singles matched scheduled on the same day. eight time champ roger federer coming off a pair of knee operations last season and playing in his grand slam champion, coming up on 40, is now the oldest wimbledon championship era, extending him to his record setting 18th quarter final tournament. world number one, novack djokovic advances winning in straight sets to make it to his 12th quarter final while continuing his pursuit of a calendar year grand slam. djokovic needs to win three more mach this is week to match the record of 20 titles shared by

federer and rafa nadal. >> i tell you this, djokovic's and federer's finalist a few years back is one of the best of i've seen. >> and coco gauff's wimbledon run has ended in the fourth round again falling in straight sets against 2018 champ angelique kerber. "born to run" now that's your favorite song, now born to ride. jessica springsteen, daughter of bruce springsteen has been named a member of the equestrian team. she was an alternate for the 2012 team in london and didn't qualify for rio in 2016. she now makes her olympic debut as a member of the jumping squad. the 29-year-old began riding

horses at 4 years old on her family's farm in new jersey. she's ranked third on the u.s. rider list and 27th in the world. >> what do you think about that, mika? a lot of nervous moments. >> yeah. >> for you. >> it's a beautiful sport. >> and for any parent whose children do this. wow. that's -- >> best of luck to her. >> congratulations. >> let's turn to this morning's must read opinion pages for that we bring in historian jon meacham and former chief of staff to the d triple c adrienne elrod. and we'll start with paul krugman's latest for "the new york times" entitled "it's morning in joe biden's america". he writes in part this. at this point we have enough data in hand to declare that the economy is booming.

in fact, it's booming so strongly that republicans have pivoted from claiming falsely that we're experiencing the worst job performance in decades to lauding the employment numbers and giving credit to trump's 2017 tax cut. the economy is running hotter than it did the morning in america boom that gave ronald reagan a landslide victory in the 1984 presidential election. we've gained 3 million jobs since biden took offic office, 600,000 jobs a month. this compares-to-with gains of 340,000 a month in the year leading up to the 1984 gains. so yes, we are having another morning in america and biden deserves more credit for his good morning than reagan ever did for his.

wow. >> jon meacham when i hear the term morning in america, the phrase, i think back not to the landslide victory where reagan won 49 states but the year before when ronald reagan's popularity was upside down, when he gave a state of the union he had a 42% approval rating and a 57% disapproval rating even going into the fall john glen was ahead of him by 10 points, mondale was ahead of him as the primary season was starting to heat up. so much can change in a year. but right now the economy does seem to be going in the right direction for joe biden. >> it is. one great question about this example that he writes about is reagan could build to a victory of 49 states. talk about a 49 state

presidential victory now is as if we're talking about they are moply. it's so remote. it's genuinely mathematically impossible. maybe not mathematically, but it's culturally impossible. one of the things it throws us back to is the question about the structural partisanship of the era. our politics is going to turn on this question of the next five to ten years, how many people are actually movable by the kind of data, the kind of facts that krugman writs about. whether you voted for him or against him, are you, as a participant in the american process, are you willing to actually change your mind based on changing circumstance? which, by the way, is what we are supposed to do. it's one of the insights of the

founding was that reason would have a chance against passion. so i don't know what that number is, i don't know if it's 5 million, 10 million of the 74 million people who voted for the 45th president, but it's a really interesting question how many folks will be moved by fact. >> it really is. it's still surprising to me, 75 million americans voted for a guy who was calling for the arrest of his opponent two weeks before, but there were so many other things that donald trump did as president, that people would have run away from in any previous time, but adrian, it does seem jon is right, the political world we live in now is radically different than the political world that i grew up in, ronald reagan elected twice by landslides, george h.w. bush elected by a landslide. and then the same people that elected reagan twice elected

bill clinton twice. then helped elect george w. bush twice. then helped elect barack obama twice. and, by the way, barack obama wasn't a -- like he didn't win in a squeaker. i think he's the first democrat to win with over a majority of votes two times since fdr. the guy was rolling up tallies of 53%. there were massive shifts. these last two elections, though, people seem to have their political feet stuck in cement. not a lot of crossover voters. >> i think, joe, meacham brings up a smart point, is this going to be what makes some republicans who have been, you know, maybe some who actually supported the insurrection or some who, you know, have been with trump twice -- been with him twice is this going to swing

them back our direction, because not only is the economy good, joe, as you know, but joe biden has created more jobs in the first five months under his administration in the history of job creation in america. really great staff on his side. what does that mean for re-election? that's a couple years away. it's a very good sign for the midterm elections which biden needs to keep the majority in the house and the senate in order to get the landmark legislation through. so i think it looks really good through the midterms. the white house is looking at these numbers, they are very happy with where things are. you also recall, joe, when biden was running for president he made it clear, getting as many people vaccinated in america is my number one goal. getting people vaccinated equals getting the economy going and back to work. this is all intertwined. i think again it goes well and shows what the biden policies

that they have enacted so far are actually good for america and they're actually doing their job. >> here's another one from "the new york times." brett stevens new piece is "china won't bury us either" he writes beijing's unconstrained behavior gives it the appearance of strength. it's a cliche that china's rise is unstoppable, much as germany's supposedly was a little over a century ago. but appearances of strength tend to obscure realities of weakness, for beijing the crack is that the radiojet stream is based on lying. how beijing's own lies will eventuallily bring the system down is impossible to predict. but there's little question that it profoundly feebles the system as a whole. truth in the form of political

honesty is essential to the generating of social trust that is the basis of healthy societies. china's regime lacks both. xi jingping may think that one day a disciplined and directed chinese system will bury an aimless, unserious free world. na-keita khrushchev once had a similar thought. something to remember in this time of western self-doubt. >> jon, i am stuck in the '80s this morning. thinking back to the late '80s when there was one book after another talking about how japan was going to bury us. how all they had to do was who would their semiconductor chips and our nuclear weapons would fall into the ocean, how they were going to turn the united states into nothing more than japan's granary within 30 years. we've heard -- we constantly hear this, we're going to be

destroyed by the soviet union, then we're going to be destroyed by japan. we've heard for the past ten years china is going to overtake us and relegate us to second class status on the world stage. it's what we do. we worry and are constantly thinking there's somebody out there about to overtake us. china yes, very strong. china powerful. but china too as brett stephens points out has its challenges just as we do. >> when mika was reading the excerpt, i kept thinking about the republican party and how synonymous it might be with china in that. and not to be reflexively partisan but looking at a threat to american democracy and resilience, as irsaying, they

are internal as much if not more than external and they're certainly linked. when george w. bush was in the transition from '88 to '89, he was reading paul kennedy and the decline and fall of the great powers. remember the threat to democracy then was something called the deficit. you know, which is now i think sort of off our radar screen. but there is a resilience and power to america's way of life. but it requires constant adjustment, and a commitment, a common assent to being honest with ourselves about the challenges we face, the solutions we want to pursue to our problems. we can argue about the means all we want. what's different right now is that we seem to be in disagreement about the ends.

the end of most folks on the center to the left, i believe, is to -- is part of the coherent american tradition. you can disagree with it but it's a recognizable tradition. as currently constituted run, the people from the center to the right are not part of that conversation. they have opted out because of this interest in power over any kind of traditional american principle. i think that's going to be the great threat. the great threat is from within right now. >> yeah, you know, gene, in the past i've talked when there have been discussions about china, i've talked about all the money they spend on internal security. it certainly dwarves anything that we have to spend. but what if we -- we're in the

six month anniversary of the fbi chasing down and investigating domestic terrorists who tried to take down the federal government. who, if you actually read the federal statute that talks about sedition and being part of a conspiracy to commit sedition, it lines up exactly what what we saw on january 6th, a group of people who rioted and they were trying to stop a constitutionally required service from being performed by congress, by the united states government, that is sedition. and for the first time since the civil war we have the fbi working around the clock trying to find seditionists and bring them to justice. that certainly is something new for us. >>. >> that's absolutely right, joe. nonetheless, we have a congress that can't agree -- or at least

half of it can't support a full investigation into this act of sedition, this act of insurrection, that was unprecedented in american history. it's an amazing situation. i agree with jon that the threats to this country right now do come from within. i agree with him on what side they come from. and when we look at china and we look at the future, guess -- let's keep in mind how it worked out for khrushchev and how it worked out for japan. but also let's keep in mind that past results are no guarantee of future performance. that, you know, things don't happen until they happen. so i -- i am not convinced that the united states is at no risk.

i'm not as confident as brett stephens is because of this internal threat. it's corrosive and it's something that we have to deal with if this is going to be another american century. >> you know, adrian, in june, in early june, the united states senate did pass a bipartisan bill that confronted some of the challenges coming from china economically. that was certainly a positive sign. the president signed that bill. he seemed to take the high road to a degree that i think most former presidents while they were in office would not have taken in the face of such criticism. is that joe biden's plan moving into the future going on with the portion of the republican party -- do you think he's going

to keep his head down and keep plowing ahead trying to get bipartisan legislation? >>, you know, i think he is to an extent, joe. but the bottom line is when you see anybody coming out of the white house talking about what his red line is. the number one red line is inaction. so any inaction on infrastructure, on any of the policies that he's driving forward for the american people, that's his red line. if he has to get legislation passed without republicans, he will do it. >> adrian elrod and jon meacham, thank you both for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," it's been six months since the january 6th capital insurrection and the justice department is still searching for rioters who were involved in the attack. plus a nationwide surge in violent crime. we'll take a look at one u.s. city that is changing its approach to policing, and it's having an impact. "morning joe" is coming right back. ct "morning joe" is coming right back

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beautiful shot of the capitol. just about to hit the top of the hour. welcome back to "morning joe" on this tuesday, july 6th. the a.p.'s jonathan lemire and "the washington post's" eugene robinson are still with us. we move to the news now. today marks the six month mark since the attack on the u.s. capitol. more than 140 officers were injured in that attack. and while more than 500 people have been arrested, the fbi is still working to identify some 300 more. including whomever is possible for placing pipe bombs outside of the offices of both the republican and democratic

national committees. the struggle reflects the massive scale of the investigation and how much work still needs to be done in the face of an effort by some republican lawmakers to rewrite what happened that day. this is what happened that day. as the a.p. points out, officials made few arrests on the day of the riot because they were focused on clearing the capitol and protecting lawmakers' lives. however, officials have been helped by amateur detectives using crowd sourcing methods to help identify rioters, insurrectionists, more than two dozen defendants have pleaded guilty so far, one woman has been sentenced. though she avoided jail time. newly released body camera video from a capitol attack court case gives us another look at just how dangerous the capitol riot was for officers trying to defend our country and our lawmakers. watch as an officer protects

himself with a shield as rioters box him in creating catastrophic and claustrophobic conditions. you can see the flashes of strobe lights meant to disorient the police on the front lines. and take a look at this. rioters pushing against a police line as officers try in vain to rotate in new people. >> slowly guys. we're rotating out the front line. we got a shield line behind you, you go behind me. >> back up! back up. >> these guys are getting smashed. >> stop! stop! >> joining us now nbc 4 washington investigative reporter scott mcfarlane and

host of way too early, kasie hunt. thank you both for being with us. scott, you've been looking into this and the investigative angle of this has many, many, many focuses. not only just trying to arrest those who were there, the insurrectionists and charge them, but also the political angle of really trying to prove to the american people and a large portion of it that is trying to be told something different about what happened there. what can you tell us? >> good morning. let's start with this. we are closer to the starting line than the finish line of the prosecutions and potentially the investigation. think of where we were six months ago this morning they were setting up the rafters at the white house. those pipe bombs were sitting active, dangerous and ominously outside the republican and democratic party headquarters. and people involved with the insurrection were storing guns at a hotel in virginia getting

ready for what the feds say was a quick reaction force if and when donald trump invoked the insurrection act. and insurrectionists were arming themselves with bear spray, hockey sticks, baseball bats, a sharpened american flag ready for action here. we know of the 516 federal arrests so far, seems clear there are hundreds more to come. but we don't know who left the pipe bombs. we don't know who is responsible for this horrible attack against a new york times photographer where they corn erred her, asked her where she worked for, grabbed her credentials saw it was the time and they knocked her over, grabbed her camera and took off. we don't know who those people are. we don't know where this legal road ends, more importantly, with whom or with what. >> kasie hunt, when you look at

six months later, we look at the video and you were there that day, and there are so many people in the crowd who spent the 2020 election screaming about law and order and defending the blue. you look at the lies that have been spread over the six months. first it was the lie that these weren't trump supporters well, kevin mccarthy shot that down as they were screaming and swearing at the president on the day of the storming of the capitol, swearing to the president, how stupid did trump think he was, those were his supporters. then there was a lie that nothing dangerous happened that day. ron johnson said i had no reason to be concerned. the video proved that to be a lie. then there was the lie these were just regular tourists. and we saw the members of congress who said that was actually barricading himself with capitol police behind the

entrance to the house chamber. and now these so-called defenders of police officers won't acknowledge them, won't talk to them, won't thank them. we've seen some capitol officers go in and be completely ignored by republicans. police officers that were beaten within inches of their life, who thought they were going to die that day. this is not defending the blue. it's the antithesis of supporting law enforcement officers. >> yeah, joe. the thing about all of that revisionist history is that we have these videos to play. i was there, i saw it with my own eyes. we don't have to -- this is not something you have to report so and so said this. in fact, the reality is very obvious and completely different than what now people are trying to say or claim actually happened that day. i'd be interested to know what

ron johnson thinks mike pence might have been worried about. obviously they weren't chanting hang ron johnson but they were chanting hang mike pence. but one serious and significant question, joe, is what happens next. there's already some discussion and concern about august, because there is this theory out there that that is a time when former president trump will be reinstated. so there's some chatter on these bulletin boards whether this is something that is going to occur and questions about whether they have actually adequately addressed the security issues at the capitol considering the police force is operating well below the levels it's supposed to because they're having trouble with recruitment and morale but as you point out these officers don't feel supported. so i think there's increased nervousness around that. one thing that's coming clear,

too, scott's reporting has shown, it was organized by these extremist groups and in some cases they took advantage of people who were there protesting politically or showed up to support donald trump, who weren't necessarily prepared and ready to do this but who ultimately followed along. you see a lot of them in the rotunda. but that element that is organizing is incredibly dangerous. and whether our government is prepared to take that on and to be on top of it is really the big question we should all be asking day in and day out. >> scott, kasie gave me a segway to ask you about the next steps. what is being done here in terms of both the prosecution, we've seen, i believe, one or two of the sentences so far. what sort of -- what are prosecutors looking at, particularly for those like maybe the oath keepers or proud boys who were involved? but also, what is law enforcement doing to keep their

eyes, if you will, on them to keep something like this from happening again, whether it's a storming the capitol in august, or smaller protests at state capitols or other political movements that could become dangerous and violent. >> the first thing is you have to manage expectations about the timetables here. the prosecutors are making progress with the oath keeper, the far right group accused of plotting and planning ahead of the sixth. the feds are secured three plea agreements and all three have agreed to help the feds. they flipped. but there are dozens more of proud boys, oath keepers. but the capitol as talking, the appropriations bill out of committees this year call for hardening of the capitol, bullet resistance doors, gun tracing

systems, what was one thought to be unnecessary in a complex guarded by 2,000 police officers now seems very much necessary and has already received bipartisan support. so that's where we are, we have case time lines that go to 2022, that's the first big trial date, january 2022. the hardening of the capitol could be sooner to bet erprotect lawmakers. >> scott mcfarlane, thank you for coming on the show this morning. we want to move to florida now, search and rescue efforts expanded significantly in surfside on monday after officials knocked down the rest of the partially collapsed condo. four more bodies were discovered, raising the official number of those killed to 28. 117 people remain unaccounted for. nearly two weeks after half of the champlain towers south condo

collapsed in the middle of the night. search efforts were hampered throughout the day as thunderstorms and strong winds hit the area. as tropical storm elsa continues to approach the state. now to the surge in crime that police departments across the country are grappling with and the search for solutions as well. about four years ago, the city of baltimore changed its approach to policing. nbc news senior national correspondent tom yamas has a look at how it's been working. >> reporter: on the streets with baltimore police, responding to a domestic disturbance call as officers tried to gather information. the scene starts to turn. tempers flaring after an alleged fistfight among family members. some involved start shouting at officers.

four years ago, police tell us there would have been arrests here. but now a focus on deescalation. what is your training tell you in that situation? >> reporter: try to stay calm and keep the parties separate. >> reporter: baltimore pd is trying to change because they have to. in the wake of the protests over the death of freddie gray who died in 2015 from injuries sustained in police custody, the justice department took a hard look at their tactics and found widespread civil rights violations. that led to the consent degree in 2017, mandating limits on use of force enhanced civilian oversight and more deescalation training. veteran officer reese thinks the changes are working. but a recent survey shows some patrol officers feel vulnerable. since the consent decree was

implemented some cops have complained they're ap hence sieve now about using force, even making an arrest because they're not sure the department is going to have their back. >> the perception that you have to be overly aggressive and strong to enforce law is wrong. >> reporter: ray kelly is one of the community organizers who helped monitor the changes. >> if you were to grades the consent degree what grade would you give it? >> i would give it a c minus. >> why? >> the process itself is slow beyond slow. >> reporter: four years in and millions of dollars later, we asked residents in west baltimore, the most violent area of the city if they noticed change? >> i have not. i feel like there's resistance. >> reporter: some say things have gotten worse. when i say baltimore pd, what's the first thing that comes to your mind? >> phoniness, aggression,

targetism, racism. >> but kelly maintains there is progress. >> i can only reflect on the riots and unrest around the country following the george floyd murder. didn't have clashes with the police department. >> reporter: though some are critical of the pace of change even the police department acknowledges it takes time. >> you need kids growing up seeing what we're about to do. >> reporter: trying to undo decades of mistrust day by day. >> you know, gene robinson, there can be change. change can occur, sometimes. the right police commissioner going in and the right set of facts makes a difference. the commissioner was on talking about his book, you read about his policing in l.a., they made connection with a community that badly needed that connection.

he couldn't do it as much in new york. because he said rudy giuliani got in the way. but sometimes we see some of the efforts like in baltimore actually making a difference. >> i think connection is the key. key is that officers should know and respect the communities that they police. and, you know, every community wants police officers to get the bad guys. they don't want police officers to harass and potentially injure or even kill the good guys. people who are law abiding, who are going about their business. and the connection is what's needed for police officers to be able to tell the difference, to know the people. policing is something you have to do with a community, not to a

community. and, you know, baltimore is on, i think, a good path. there are other cities that have also done pretty well. washington d.c. the police department, when i first came here, had a significant sort of gap between police and community. that has been substantially closed by successive police chiefs and waves of new officers. and with a more community based approach to policing, it can work. now to this, iconic hollywood film director and producer richard donner died at the age of 91. his career of film and television spanned six decades, including some of the biggest movies of the '70s and '80s, including "lethal weapon,"

"superman" and the "goonies". get in here! okay. no [bleep]. you want to kill yourself. >> oh for -- >> shut up, yes or no you want to die? >> i got the job done, what do you want? >> you didn't answer the question. >> what do you want to hear, man? do you want to hear that sometimes i think about eating a bullet? well, i do. >> mikey, mikey, come on, our parents are worried, it's dinner time, why don't we go home. >> home? what home? in a couple more hours it ain't going to be home anymore. come on, guys. this is our time. our last chance to see if if there really is in rich stuff. >> we got to.

>> okay, kids. it's all right now. >> hey, it's superman. >> together with his wife, donner ran the donner's company where they also launched films including "free willy," "xmen" and "dead pool". still ahead on "morning joe," it's been two weeks since the new york mayoral primary was held and there's still no clear winner yet. thanks to ranked choice voting. we'll have the latest on the race and the crazy system. who likes ranked voting, anyone? you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪

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some exciting news this morning, we want to announce the next phase of the forbes 50 over 50 list. last month we unveiled the inaugural list. and that was just the beginning. it was forbes first most successful first time inaugural list with thousands and thousands of nominations. most successful by far. so now here's what's next. tomorrow, forbes and know your value will shine a light on women over 50 with the 50 over 50 impact list. it's the list of women who are changing their industries and their communities through work and politics, law and education, social entrepreneurship, the full impact list is coming out tomorrow. and this morning leading things off on the list we're going to reveal a little bit right here on "morning joe." we can tell you one of the women featured on this list, kicking

things off is valerie biden owens and tomorrow my interview with president biden's sister, who happens to be one of the chief architects behind his november victory. >> you know, mika, also somebody that has been with joe biden through good times and bad, there's no doubt going back to the tragedies of the early '70s and all the ups and downs that she kept him going, kept him moving forward. extraordinary partner for their entire lives. and still is right there with him. helping him out. >> yeah, so stay tuned tomorrow. we'll have the full interview with val biden owens, exclusively on "morning joe." and also tomorrow we're going to reveal the full 50 over 50 impact list. so find out the other women on this incredible list.

i'm very excited about it. we have a lot more ahead with this initiative. so more results are expected today in the democratic primary race for new york city mayor, former police captain eric adams currently holds a slim two point leave over former city sanitation commissioner kathryn garcia. but thanks to the city's new ranked choice voting system, the final results could still be far from known. our next guest argues the particular method of ranked choice voting used by new york city is not the best method for dealing with the challenge of achieving majority rule when there are multiple candidates. he has an alternative version dubbed round robin voting. joining us now to explain his idea chair in constitutional law at ohio state university, ned folly is also an nbc news

election law analyst. ranked choice voting hasn't turned out so well so far. it's frustrating if for folks. what's your idea. >> to use the same ranked choice ballots but you calculate the winner in a different way. the problem in new york is not with the ranked choice system it's with the election administration not doing a good job. other localities have used ranked choice for several decades now successfully. but there are different methods for identifying a winner but the problem with the current system is it doesn't look at the full range of choices that voters use ranked choice ballots to indicate and sometimes can squeeze out a popular candidate. i'm looking at the senate election in alaska where they

introduced ranked choice voting and senator murkowski is going to be facing challengers. >> first the update on new york city is we will get the absentee ballots back to the but if the margins are close we may not have a winner today because there could be challenges. but shifting to the broader picture of ranked choice voting you mentioned alaska. where else is it being used? how is it used differently there? i think new york city is perceived as a big test for this style of tabulating votes you're right to highlight the problems with the new york city board of elections, which goes back decades. if things that people are viewing this as a failure or it's too messy, will that hurt the use of ranked choice voting going forward? >> i hope not. one of the ideas i'm promoting the idea of round robin voting

is we're familiar with round robin in sports. a lot of sports use it. if you can follow the standings of your favorite teams in a sports league and have the concept of a round robin is each competitor has a match against every other competitor and you tally up your standings after all the matches are done. you can use ranked choice ballots to do that. and that will find the candidate who is most majority preferred across all of the candidates because it's the same electorate and you're just asking -- take the alaska example, you take senator murkowski and match her against one competitor, see which the voters prefer. take another competitor, and then you figure out who do the majority of voters prefer overall. that's an idea from sports that would allow us to follow the competition of elections better than this complicated instant runoff voting which is

complicated. i'm hoping -- new york city is the biggest place in the u.s. that it's been used. it's been used in if australia and other countries successfully. i'm hoping as it gets more understanding people can be more comfortable with it because it is a way to identify majority choice. if we only had two candidates on the ballot, whoever has the most votes get the majority. but it's difficult to figure out a winner when there's three or more candidates. you think we could have solved this problem in our 200 year history but ranked choice voting is a novelty and we need to explore it more. >> how do we do it in a timely manner? i'm getting emails from people who say martians came in and people with lasers from italy came in and somehow changed the election. a million conspiracy theories because michigan, wisconsin, and

pennsylvania didn't count the votes. >> have a winner announced by 11:00 election night. here we are in to july, and we're still waiting on results from a new york city election that was held on june 22nd. >> right. key point, of course, that problem in michigan and pennsylvania last year, was not about ranked choice voting it's about the rules for when you can look at the absentee ballots. >> right. >> we need to change the law. it was politics that slowed that down. we were talking before november the need for that. and local election officials, secretary of states were saying please change the rules -- >> i understand that, professor, we talked about that here how we were talking about how state officials were begging republican legislatures in machlt michigan, wisconsin and pennsylvania to let them counts early like we do in the state of

florida. i'm just talking about any delay. it seems this ranked choice voting has caused a disproportionate delay in new york city. are there versions of ranked choice voting that wouldn't take, two, three weeks to get to the winner? >> yeah. the delay in new york is caused by a rule that's similar to what michigan and pennsylvania had with the absentee ballots. the delay is not from the math involved with ranked choice voting. it is more complicated mathematically, but the computers can handle that fast. if we're fixing the problem of delay, don't blame the voting, blame the rule for absentee ballots. >> since we talked about wisconsin, michigan, and pennsylvania not doing what florida does, counting the early votes early. usually in florida i've known for quite some time who was going to win statewide elections

mainly because miami-dade and broward and palm beach county report so quickly in the evening. but why is there ever any excuse, whether you're talking about michigan or manhattan, why is there ever any excuse for not counting absentee ballots and early ballots early? >> there is no excuse. the better way to do it, this is a nonpartisan statement, to process the ballots as they arrive. the delay makes no sense for the modern world of voting. it's an old fashioned legacy from long ago. >> chair and constitutional law at the ohio state university and an msnbc news election law analyst, ned foley, thank you for being on this morning. coming up, fake news, social media trolling and conspiracy

theories. our next guest is taking a look at the rise of disinformation in recent years and its effect on democratic culture. "morning joe" is coming right back. orning joe" is coming righ back

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37 past the hour. a new book argues that we are now living in a society fighting an crisis, that americans are facing a war information's in a challenging our ability to distinguish fact from fiction, truth from lies. jonathan roush joins us now, he's senior fellow at the brookings institution and a contribuing writer at the atlantic magazine, the author of

the new book entitled "the constitution of knowledge, a defense of truth". also with us professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr., good to have you both. >> when i served in congress, if there was an issue i wanted to get in front of my people i'd hold 20 town hall meetings by the end of those, check it off the list. they understood what i was doing. i would talk to them. i talk to members now and say, hey, hold town hall meetings. just get in front of your people, tell them the truth, they'll listen. they look at me like i'm from another time, which i guess i am. >> you definitely are. >> what has changed and i love blaming facebook and social media, but what else is it? why have we moved to a world where the free marketplace of

ideas is so cluttered? >> well, of course, you've got the new technologies, which make it so easy and fast to spread lies and half truths and conspiracy theories. but frankly, the single biggest change is we have spent the last five years now with a presidential candidate and then a president who adapted and weaponized russian-style disinformation tactics and used those against the american people. i'm talking about donald trump and his maga movement. you were a target of that, most of us are. they're very good at using these online tools. >> so what is the way out of this? if you, for instance, i have a very intelligent friend with a post grad degree who keeps sending me disinformation from chinese cults. and websites that they put up in

the united states. and i said, well, you can read this a.p. fact check. no, i don't trust the a.p. you could read "the washington journal," it's owned by rupert murdoch, it's considered conservative. no, no, i can't trust main stream media. yet they trust websites put up by chinese religious cults. how do you fight against that? >> it's a lot of different things, joe. it's not just one single or handful of things. we've been in messes like this before, maybe not quite as bad but with 19th century american journalism which was a cesspool of lies and hyper partisanship. and what's worked in the past is you build resilience into the system, help educate people about what's true and not true, you build in institutional guidelines and guardrails like what facebook is trying to do now with its oversight board and what google has done by trying

to bump up in its feed things that are fact checked. you make the media savvier so people like us in the media get better at covering the issues without amplifying the fake news, without repeating it. you get watchdog groups that we're seeing pop up that are inside the disinformation networks and exposing them. it's going to be lots of different things going on at once if we can solve this. >> give us a little bit of historical perspective, you talked about newspaper in the 19th century. i will quote gladys night, when she talks about how we talk about these are the good old days -- we talk about the good old days, well, our children will look at these days and probably call them the good old days as well. so we idolize what happened, 20, 30, 50 years ago? has there always been this mess?

have things always been this difficult to sort through? they just have taken different forms, the disinformation? >> we've had waves. we had 19th century american journalism and that started settling down when we built ethics in journalism and journalism schools. and then radios in the '30s. and then things were stable and good for a while we didn't do fake news. that was disrupted by the internet and then by the rise of donald trump and maga and anti-vaxxers and gamer gate and all of that stuff. i think this cycle is worse than the others because its's the first time that a president and a major political party have become institutional users of large scale weaponized disinformation. that's new. that's a political problem, not a tech problem. that means we all need to be more aware of the fire hose of falsehood tactics which they're

called, that's when you dump out so much fake stuff so fast no one can keep up, everyone gets confused and disoriented. we have to get wise to that. >> that's what i find with my friends when they send me disinformation and other people send disinformation, you send that they go what about this, what about this, what about martians, what about the italian guy? it's always coming at you. it is a fire hose that they've been hit with, that they send to you if you ever start to answer one of the questions show they're wrong, what about this, what about that? it is so maddening. i'm curious, so what do you say to the 75 million people who say, actually, that facebook, that lies on facebook, that lies on twitter, that -- the lies that come from the fire hose of

falsehoods is reality and actually it is you, it is me, it is the main stream media that actually are the purveyors of the fake news? >> first thing that you want people to know, it won't reach everyone, it's america, it's a big country, you never reach everyone. but the first thing you want people to know is we are under attack. we have a major political party and a former president that are using these tactics. and it does create some resilience against fire hose falsehood and other mechanisms like this for people to know they're being manipulated. that doesn't reach everyone. the second thing is what about that uncle who believes that crazy stuff and always changes the subject. the evidence is just confronting them with facts head on doesn't help. but as the old saying goes you can't make people agree with you, but you can make them want to agree with you. the research suggests if you try

listening and then walking through, how would this conspiracy theory work, how would you coordinate a fraud in ten states with no one hearing about it. and then walk them through it, maybe it begins to make less sense. but they have to feel welcome. like you want to actually listen before they'll listen to you. >> we have with us eddie glaude and he has a question. >> i find this fascinating. whenever there's a crisis there are questions being asked about the background conditions that make it all possible, right. what does this mean for how our democracy functions, if you think there is supposed to be -- a vibrant democracy is supposed to have informed citizens engaged with each other, what happens when there's this crisis that leads to the questioning of these background conditions? what does this mean for democracy as such, to put it quickly? >> it's a very big problem. i call it the constitution of

knowledge for a reason. we depend on rules and intugss to keep our society grounded in reality and keep us out of creed wars, civil wars. that's the way we settled disagreements in most of our 200,000 years of human evolution, we go to war. protestants versus catholic raging across europe. when you have a crisis you see symptoms like extreme partisanship, distrust, chilling, rabbit holes, forking realities where people can't connect anymore and ultimately that can lead to civil war and violence. so it's very important that we wise up to the russian-style disinformation tactics that are used against us by other americans rights now and we start really focussing on the fact that it is an attack and it will damage our democracy if we don't rise to the challenge. >> jonathan, it's kasie hunt. i'm glad you brought that up

because it is my question, because we've seen this disinformation evolve into real life violence. i was there at the capitol. you're starting to hear some possible 2024 contenders not named donald trump, nikki haley, using rhetoric that is more violent than i would have expected from her or any presidential candidate before the trump era. i guess my question is, how far are we down that road? it seems like we've already taken several steps. there are people taking action. they're not just fighting with their friends and neighbors over dinner. they are taking action and it is ending up in violence already because of this environment. >> obviously much further than we want to be. how far we are really depends on our next move. we already have on the debit side we have a major political party, the republican party and its leader, which are now committed to warfare, an al f

alternative reality, pushing it out, they are smart, adaptive. on the plus side you have social media companies figuring out what's going on. you have media covering misinformation, presenting it to readers in a better way. you have watchdog groups inside networks providing warnings to governments and social media companies. so you have this race going on. who wins that, i don't know. i'll tell you one plus, this sounds like a partisan statement. i'm center right, i voted for many republicans. but the fact that donald trump is not in office is a huge plus and we need to use this respite to rebuild defenses because if they get back in office you will see another onslaught of fakery and conspiracyism and firing hosing like you have never seen

before. >> jonathan rauch thank you for writing the book and being on the show this morning. we appreciate it. coming up we'll talk to one of the leading conservative activists speaking out against critical race theory. eddie glaude will stick around for that conversation. whatever happened to crossover voters, the strong economy helped the democratic party win over voters who supported donald trump. ♪♪ >> and listening to gladys night and the pips the way we were. ♪ the way we were ♪.

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veterans face when returning home. many who served as medics in the military are now struggling to find work in the medical field as a civilian. nbc news correspondent aaron gilchrist has more on why and what's being done to change it. >> reporter: as an enlisted sailor he spent 11 years working as a hospital corpsman, working on the front line with mass casualty incidents. >> it was, hey, we have 20 people coming in. find someone to take care of them. >> reporter: after his military service, dodson volunteered at a covid hospital in new york. >> i was applying for jobs as a medical tech and being told i wasn't qualified. >> reporter: was it lack of experience? >> a lot of it was you're impressive, but you just don't

have the right certifications. >> reporter: dodson's problem is not unique. >> at a time of great need for health care workers, we're turning away some of the most experienced health care workers. >> reporter: only a handful of states have clear pathways from military to civilian health care jobs. >> they find something else, which is a shame. >> reporter: they come to one place where they learn, they train, and they're able to take those skills and certifications into the civilian world. the dean of academics at the defense department's training campus. >> over time we learn it's better if we can provide each individual sailor or airman something they can take to the civilian world once they finish with the military.

>> reporter: the military has college credits that transfer into the civilian world, too. >> they usually have a pathway using one of these bridge programs. >> reporter: the military shifting to help veterans help more people here at home. >> our thanks to nbc's aaron gilchrist for that report. coming up, president biden will deliver remarks this afternoon about the fight against covid after falling short of his july 4th vaccination goal. plus an update from surfside, florida as tropical storm elsa threatens to hamper search efforts. "morning joe" will be right back. e right back who dares to be fearless even when her bladder leaks. our softest, smoothest fabric keeping her comfortable, protected, and undeniably sleek. depend. the only thing stronger than us, is you. from prom dresses to workouts depend. and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss.

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"morning joe." it is tuesday, july 6. we're following a number of developing stories this morning, including concern over how far u.s. vaccination rates have fallen. is there anything new the white house can do to convince the unvaccinated to get the shot? and today marks six months since the attack on the u.s. capitol. we're going to take a look at how law enforcement is doing when it comes to bringing those involved to justice. but first search and rescue efforts expanded significantly in surfside, florida on monday after officials knocked down the rest of the partially collapsed

condo. >> we're able to report that the search and rescue team has been able to search all sections of the grid on the collapse following the building demolition. now that the entire area is safe to search, the teams have now removed over 4.8 million pounds of concrete from the pile. >> four more bodies were discovered, raising the number of those killed officially to 28. 117 people remain unaccounted for nearly two weeks after half of the champlain towers south condo collapsed in the middle of the night. search efforts were hampered throughout the day as thunderstorms and strong winds hit the area, thanks to tropical storm elsa as it continued to approach the state. joining us now from surfside, msnbc correspondent vaughn

hillyard. vaughn, what more can you tell us this morning? >> reporter: yeah, mika, this was the two-pronged concern. one, the demolition of the building. that was successful. second was the impact of tropical storm elsa. just around 4:00 eastern yesterday afternoon were when we first saw the outer bands of that storm hit the surfside coast. you can see from that video strong gusty winds as rain began to downpour here on this area. there were at least two different times yesterday afternoon and evening that we're aware of that rescue teams had to come to a halt. they had to suspend their operations primarily because of concerns of lightning and thunder. this is a situation where rescue teams are able to, despite the rain, continue on, but if wind gusts, they say, get up to excess of 30 miles per hour or if lightning becomes a factor, that will continue to cause halts here in this operation. when we're talking about these numbers, it's now 13 days since

that initial collapse and just 28 bodies have been recovered at this time. there are still 117 individuals unaccounted for. the good part about this is that the mayor insists that they ever been able to reach all parts of not only that building that was demolished on sunday but also the rubble from that initial collapse. 4.8 million tons of cement have been removed. they're now able to tunnel underneath that existing rubble as well because there was a portion of it, we were told by officials, they were not able to access in the first 11 days after the collapse because some of that rubble was key to holding up that existing structure that ultimately came down sunday night. with that building down, they're now able to make advancements. again, though, the big concern is there is no wind at this hour, but they saw strong winds yesterday afternoon and that is expected to come back today and

tomorrow, mika. >> thank you for that update on the scene. let's go to bill karins. what will the effect be of elsa in the next several hours? >> i'm concerned with storm surge and isolated tornadoes. those are my biggest concerns over the florida peninsula in the next 24 to 36 hours, and surfside itself, i don't think you'll get much worse than what we saw yesterday with squalls coming through. it will be similar at times today throughout the day. we just got the latest update in in the 5:00 a.m. hour. the storm is closest to key west right now. maximum wind gusts are only 35 to 40 miles per hour right now. it's not a big wind event that will cause a lot of damage. it's mostly a storm surge issue, and as i said, if we get

tornados during the day today. it's coming onshore near pinellas county. wind really shouldn't be too much of an issue. then tomorrow and tomorrow night the storm races through the coastal areas. it could even rake areas like cape cod, long island, possibly through virginia beach and norfolk, so it will be kind of squalls and some rain for those areas. as far as florida goes, if we're going to have any problem from water or damage, it would be when we get the high tide cycle later tonight as the storm is closest to the tampa bay area. this is a region of florida that's very flood prone to storm surge. 3 to 5 feet is not a huge ordeal, but there could be water in areas that you really don't want them. as far as winds go, i don't think we'll have much wind

damage. if we get to 60, you'll have minor damage. 8 inches of rain could also cause problems. if we get rain surge, it would be everywhere on this map. this is bigger than some in years past, but we don't want to let our guard down. there is a slight chance it could strengthen tonight into a hurricane. >> bill karins, thank you very much for that update. today marks six months since the insurrection at the capitol. eight officers were injured in that attack. while 500 people have been arrested, the fbi are still working to identify 300 more, including whomever is responsible for placing pipe bombs outside the office of both the republican and democratic national committees. the struggle reflects the massive scale of the

investigation and how much work still needs to be done. in the face of an effort by some republican lawmakers to rewrite what happened that day. as the ap points out, officials made few arrests on the day of the riot because they were focused on clearing the capitol and protecting lawmakers. however, officials have been helped by amateur detectives using crowd sourcing methods to help identify rioters. more than two dozen defendants have pleaded guilty so far. one woman has been sentenced, though she avoided jail time. here is part of the recent "new york times" video investigation showing the moment the capitol was breached. >> reporter: the capitol is now surrounded. rioters haven't made it inside yet, but around the time that the mob on the east pushed

forward, rioters in the west were making a pivotal move. this scaffolding was erected for the upcoming inauguration of joe biden. it covers a staircase that gives direct access to an upper level and dozens of doors and windows. three policemen guard those roofs but at ground level, officers are so overwhelmed that just a few cover this access point. a couple in the crowd see the weakness. the proud boys start fighting with the police, and with others in the mob, they push through the line. for several minutes it's a brutal fight on these steps.

at one point the rioters are held back. but they make a final push up the flight of stairs. at the top, they scuffle again with a small group of officers who give in after barely a minute. the mob now has direct access to capitol entrances. >> i can't believe this is reality. we accomplished this. >> reporter: and hundreds more protesters below surge forward. it's utter mayhem and it's about to get worse. the scene is being filmed from

countless angles, allowing us to piece together moment by moment what comes next. proud boy dominic pazola uses a police shield he stole to bash in a window. at 2:13 p.m., the capitol is breached. >> all right. joining us now, we have white house reporter for the associate press, jonathan lamere. also with us, associate editor of the "washington post" and nbc political analyst, eugene robinson. >> it's been six months now. obviously, jonathan lemire, the white house, joe biden trying to move forward, trying to get legislation passed. but stubbornly, a lot of the conspiracy theories that were born out of that riot stay with

us, and unfortunately the president has to deal with the republicans every day that are in the united states congress who still believe that these were just, quote, tourists. we've heard that from extremists in the senate, extremists in the house and very little pushback from leadership. >> joe, these images are both hard to watch and essential to watch to truly understand what happened that day. there's certainly been such a consistent effort from many -- not all, but many republicans -- to whitewash what happened that day, to turn the page, to ignore it, to downplay it. you see this footage and that becomes impossible with the work the "new york times" did putting this up, and we're showing it again this morning. there is a physical reaction to it. still ahead, a cyber gang

behind the largest ransomware attack on record makes its demand. plus another warning about withdrawing troops from afghanistan, this time from a former british spy chief. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. right back. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ comfort in the extreme. ♪♪ the lincoln family of luxury suvs. oh! are you using liberty mutual's coverage customizer tool? ♪♪ so you only pay for what you need. sorry? limu, you're an animal! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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welcome back. our evil, the russian language group behind the latest ransomware attack is now asking for hundreds of thousands of dollars by businesses in the hack. to the meat packer jbs, they posted the demand. they want $70 million in bitcon to unlock businesses hit.

"politico" was the target of the attack. president biden said over the weekend the u.s. would respond if it was determined that the kremlin is at all involved in the attack. sir alex younger, the former head of u.k.'s secret intelligence service mi-6, has warned that the u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan could bring an insurgence of al qaeda and other effects. he spoke to sky news, debra haynes. >> this is the danger if a group like al qaeda has a group in afghanistan. it prompted the u.s.-led invasion to cobat the threat. but 20 years on, as american and british soldiers die down, a spy chief has warned al qaeda could

rise again. >> if we are not there, it seems to be their capacity to organize in afghanistan is going to go up, and we know what the risks are of that and what might happen. >> reporter: sir alex younger recalled what the u.k. and the united states found when they first entered the taliban and ousted the taliban regime that accommodated them. >> what we saw there was a level of terrorist infrastructure that could only have been imagined before we got there. training camps that would have been not out of place in a conventional military or special forces barracks. >> reporter: he, therefore, cautioned against neglecting afghanistan as happened when a previous russian intervention ended in 1989. >> it would be an enormous mistake for us to do that again. the reality is that there are groups there who have been very

successful in disrupting both dash and al qaeda. i would be wrong to say they have gone away, and they have the capacity to regenerate. >> reporter: these militants linked to islamic state, or daesh, surrendered to afghan forces in 2019, but over 2,000 remain at large. while al qaeda, significantly diminished, has up to 500 fighters in the country. >> we'll have to think very carefully in absence of troops on the ground about how we deal with that. it's vital that we don't make the mistakes that we made last time around. >> reporter: what would be the consequences if the west did turn their back again? >> well, i think if terror groups are allowed to regenerate in afghanistan, it will lead to more threat on the shores of our country and our allies.

>> reporter: it's a prospect that's painful to contemplate for soldiers like andy, left with mental and physical scars from afghan service. one comfort was the belief they helped to keep the streets of the u.k. safer. now even that's in doubt. >> no words can describe how angry i am about it, knowing that the men we've lost, or the men and women we've lost over there, and it just feels like we're going backwards at this point. the entire thing just felt like a waste of time. >> reporter: not completely. the taliban now know they'll suffer in afghanistan again becomes a launch pad for terrorism. the u.k. and its allies will also hope a network they've built to counter the threat can cope. debra haynes, sky news. >> thanks to sky news and debra haynes for that report.

coming up, the must-read opinion pages, including from paul krugman who says the -- e -- with voltaren arthritis pain gel my husband's got his moves back. an alternative to pain pills voltaren is the first full prescription strength gel for powerful arthritis pain relief... voltaren the joy of movement

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let's turn to this morning's must read opinion pages. for that we bring in pulitzer prize-winning historian and american presidency at vanderbilt university, jon meacham. and she was senior aide to hillary clinton and the biden campaigns. we'll start with paul krugman's latest called "it's morning in joe biden's america." he says at this point we have enough data on hand to declare the economy is booming.

in fact, it's booming so strongly that republicans have pivoted from claiming falsely that we're experiencing the worst job performance in decades to lauding the employment numbers and giving credit to trump's 2017 tax cut. the economy is running hotter than it did the morning in america boom that gave rise to the 1994 presidential election. we've gained three million jobs since biden took office, or 600,000 jobs a month. this compares with gains of 340,000 a month in the year leading up to the 1984 elections. so, yes, we are having another morning in america, and biden deserves more credit for his good morning than reagan ever did for his. >> jon meacham, whenever i hear

the term "morning in america," i always think back to the landslide victory not where reagan won 49 state, but the year before when ronald reagan's popularity was upside down. when he gave the state of the union, he had a 40% approval rating and a 54% disapproval rating. even going into the fall, john glenn was ahead of him by ten points, mondale was ahead of him. and right as write-ups worp -- were starting to heat up. so the economy does seem to be going in the right direction for joe biden. >> it is. one great question in this example krugman writes about, reagan could have a victory of 49 states. to talk about a 49-state victory

now, it's so remote. it's genuinely mathematically impossible. not mathematically, but it's culturally impossible. and i think one of the things it throws us back to is this question about the structural partisanship of the era. how many people -- and our politics is going to turn on this question over the next five to ten years. how many people are actually movable by the kind of data, the kind of facts that krugman writes about? >> it does seem -- jon is right, the political world we live in now is radically different than the political world i've grown up in. ronald reagan elected twice by landslides, george h.w. bush elected by a land side. the same people who elected reagan twice elected bill clinton twice. they came home and elected bill

clinton twice, then helped elect george w. bush twice and barack obama. barack obama didn't win in a squeaker. i think he's the first democrat to win with over a majority of votes two times since fdr. the guy was rolling up tallies of 53%. there were massive shifts. these last two elections, though, people seem to have their political feet stuck in cement. not a lot of crossover voters. >> yeah, i mean, i think jon meacham brings up a really good point, which is is this going to be what makes up some republicans, maybe some who actually supported the insurrection or some who have been with trump twice, is this going to actually swing them back our direction? because not only is the economy good, joe, as you know, but joe biden has created more jobs in

the first five months under his administration in the history of job creation in america. so really great stuff on his side. what does that mean for his re-election? of course, that's a couple years away. it means it's a very good sign for the midterm elections which biden needs to keep the majority in the house and the senate in order to get this landmark legislation through. coming up, a debate over a critical race theory. we'll talk to the conservative activist whom "the new yorker" says started a campaign against it. eddie glaude weighs in. the next discussion on "morning joe." ion on "morning joe.

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can no longer transmit hiv through sex. don't take dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or if you take dofetilide. taking dovato with dofetilide can cause serious or life-threatening side effects. hepatitis b can become harder to treat while on dovato. don't stop dovato without talking to your doctor, as your hepatitis b may worsen or become life-threatening. serious or life-threatening side effects can occur, including allergic reactions, lactic acid buildup, and liver problems. if you have a rash and other symptoms of an allergic reaction, stop dovato and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have kidney or liver problems, or if you are, may be, or plan to be pregnant. dovato may harm your unborn baby. use effective birth control while on dovato. do not breastfeed while taking dovato. most common side effects are headache, nausea, diarrhea, trouble sleeping, tiredness, and anxiety. so much goes into who i am. hiv medicine is one part of it. ask your doctor about dovato-i did. ♪♪

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♪ me and you have all the fame we need ♪ ♪ indeed, you and me are we ♪ ♪ me and you singing in the park ♪ ♪ me and you, we're waiting for the dark ♪ the national education association, the country's largest teachers union, adopted a resolution last week at its

annual meeting to support the teaching of critical race theory, or crt. the union of more than 2 million educators resolve to, quote, publicly convey its support for the accurate and honest teaching of unpleasant aspects of american history, such as slavery and the oppression and discrimination of indinl nus, black, brown, and other peoples of color, as well as the continued impact this history has on our current society. but a growing number of conservatives consider crt divisive and anti-american. joining us now, contributing editor and fellow at the manhattan institute, christopher rufell, who "the new yorker" credits for extensive race theory. he wrote most recently a "usa

today" piece titled, what i discovered about critical race theory in public schools and why it shouldn't be taught. and the "wall street journal" calls it a dangerous idealogy that will take racism into a retrograde. >> that's like dr. evil's father claiming to invent the question mark. i'm doubtful. but i did learn about you, christopher, from "the new yorker" profile, also the "wall street journal." i want to start with you and eddie both. give me a definition of critical race theory, because it is confusing to me, and i think other people confuse it, and sometimes it's like this catch-all. for instance, i agree with -- i

agree with nea that our children should learn about slavery. we should learn about the mistakes and the sins that we've made as a country. i still believe in american exceptionalism. but teaching slavery and critical race theory, those aren't the same things, are they? christopher, you first. >> that's absolutely right. this is one of the biggest kind of misconceptions. you can teach about slavery without teaching critical race theory. it was founded on racism, white supremacy and patriarchy. critical race theory reform lats the old marxist dichotomy, and they aren't saying we should

examine the racial inequality or racial injustice, they call for something deeper. they call into question the right to free speech. they impose capitalism and believe a system should be adopted. it's rooted in marxism and is frankly inappropriate as a framework for teaching children. >> so, eddie, why don't you give me your definition of critical race theory and at least what you've known it to be as you've been an academia for so many years. >> sure. critical race theory emerges within the context of law schools, joe, in response particularly to the bachi case as they tried to think of race, racism and the law, the

difference between process and due process. we needed to expand outward. we need to understand how race functions within the law. we need to understand these broader and social realities. there is a tendency to think about the u.s. in a very complex and nuanced way. i think it's very important that your opening question actually reveals something. christopher, if i can call you by your first name, you already explained very explicitly that this is not about critical race theory, this is about branding. you tweeted it. this is a fire so capture all those things that are unpopular for americans. part of what i want to suggest, joe, is not about whether or not we actually get critical race theory right, that's not actually the point that christopher and his allies are engaged in. what we need to be asking is why are they doing that at this point? why are they making these arguments at this moment?

>> so, eddie, though, i have read pieces that suggest that capitalism is racist, that if i'm a capitalist, which i believe in capitalism, i believe in american capitalism, it needs to be reformed. just like you and i, i believe we do have two americans. and we need to work towards making it one america. but is capitalism, if you're a capitalist, does critical race theory suggest that you are racist and that capitalism is racist and we have to move beyond capitalism? >> it certainly holds -- let me be very clear, i'm ot a critical race theorist, but it certainly holds its claim that capitalism has its beginnings within the context of the trans-atlantic slave trade.

so there is something called racial capitalism that involves the idea that there are certain people who are disposable. and to the extent to which they are disposable because of the color of their skin, it allows for the accumulation of surplus value. so that's a complex argument that is tethered to not just critical race theory but critical legal studies, which is also a feature of american law schools that hasn't somehow drawn the ire of christopher rufo and his allies and those folks. >> a couple things. first of all, it's not accurate to say i'm not concerned about the substance. i've written policy papers, white papers, i'm deeply concerned about the substance. what i'm concerned about and what millions of parents are really concerned about is things that are happening in hundreds of public schools in illinois and chicago where they're teaching children as young as kindergarten that whiteness is the devil and attempts to lure people into it with the promise of stolen land and stolen

riches. that's a book being used in hundreds of schools, and people don't think that's right. people want to know where it comes from, people want to know what idealogies inform it -- >> what's the name of that book, just for the record? what's the name of that book? >> the book is called "not my idea." it's being taught in hundreds of schools in illinois and chicago. it's actually the subject of a federal lawsuit by a teacher named teresa demar who was forced to teach it. you can retreat to the federal territory and saying it's looking to the history of racism and society, but if you look at the specifics, they are telling kids they are fundamentally racist because of the color of their skin. they're telling people they should feel shame, guilt and anguish because of their inborn characteristics and traits. these are the kinds of lessons i've uncovered in dozens of schools. it's now being endorsed by the nea in 14,000 school districts across the country.

and you can't retreat because parents see what their children are learning every day in books like "not my idea." they're right and they're very strongly pushing back. >> eddie, this is interesting and it's something people won't say when they're on the television set, they won't say at polite dinner parties. i'm not sure why they whisper it or text it or e-mail it to me, but liberal members of the mainstream media, democrats that are huge contributors to the democratic party and even people that work for democrats, i've heard over the past three or four years, i've got to get my kid out of this private school. they're teaching my 7-year-old boy that because he's white he's, you know, a racist, he's part of the problem, et cetera, et cetera. i don't know if you've heard the same thing. i've heard the same thing. and, again, it's anecdotal but it sure does seem to match with

more and more stories that are going out there. how do we sort through all of this and make sure that we don't throw out teaching about slavery and teaching about racism over the past 400 years, that we don't throw that out with a war against critical race theory and its extremes? >> we're going to make mistakes. there are going to be extremes, there are going to be moments of overreach, i grant that. but part of what we have to do in this moment, joe, and we talk about this, is to confront the ugliness of who we are. and part of what i hear in these sorts of arguments is this sense in which that confrontation must be won where we're comfortable. where we feel good about who we are after we confront it. i'm scooting up in my chair, joe, because i'm getting upset. because we're seeing right now in realtime a reassertion of the lie. the very thing that keeps us

from becoming a different america because we don't want to accept who we are, what we've done. >> but reassertion, though, of what? i can believe in two americas. i can believe that 1776 and 1619 can be merged together, that you can believe two things at once. i could disagree with critical race theory, but still believe what you and i have talked about, that we have a long way to go to being a just country the way that the founding documents said we were going to be. do i have to choose one or the other? >> no, no, no, no. part of what i'm thinking, once you concede the initial claim that america in some ways comes into being in light of this extraordinarily painful reality, the contradiction that is at the

heart of our beginnings, once you concede that, the way in which you begin to think about american exceptionalism shifts, right? because it's not this idea that we are wholly innocent, that we are absolved of our sins, that somehow recognizing who we are condemns us to hell, that we are being bludgeoned by our sins and made to feel guilty. that's not what we're saying at all. but you have to confront it to release us to a different future. i want to say quickly, this sort of argument is happening right now, and i want us to link it to january 6th. i want us to link it to the attack on voting rights. this is, in effect, in my view, joe, an attempt to arrest substantive change in the country, and we give these folk the credit that they're making the arguments in good faith, and i don't think they are. i'll say it to christopher right to his face. i don't think this is a good faith argument, period.

>> i think this is why it's good we're having this conversation, and i'm going to ask you two if we can continue having this conversation, if that's okay, in the days and weeks ahead. my concern, just bluntly, eddie, is that the overreach often drives natural allies away. i have seen overreach in some arguments in my opinion. a lot of people might not like me saying that. i've seen some overreach on both sides. that's not what-aboutism, it's the truth. and that's why i want us to keep this conversation going and work through it. christopher, you can be against critical race theory being taught in school and still believe that we've had slavery -- have black americans been oppressed one way or another for 400 years?

that we have a long way to go, that we are a nation that had slavery as its original sin. are those two thoughts not -- can they not exist side by side? do you not believe that america has the sin of racism and has for 400 years and we need to keep working to get past that? >> of course, yeah. i think you would be hard-pressed to find anyone in the country who doesn't believe that. i think that's obvious, but again, that's just the premise of critical race theory. the premise is that we should abandon free speech, that we should abandon that is something we should object.

the nea says we should reject it as a source of capitalism, we should reject the idea that human beings are the most important thing in our lives. they've taken the most radical hard left idealogies, now they're instituting them and promoting them in all 50 states. i'm making a good faith disagreement with my folks and counterparts on the left, but you have to wake up. this is not just conservatives and republicans. in fact, they're center left liberals in places like san francisco and new york city, and also racial minorities, particularly americans who have battled this in schools all over the country. that's not the division here. it's simply groups of people who disagree on this philosophy. >> eddie, we have to go, but i want to give you the last word. i'm sure you can sum this entire

debate up in 15 seconds in good faith. >> in order for us to imagine ourselves differently, we're going to have to confront honestly who we are, what we've done, and that's going to require discomfort. we're going to make some mistakes on the way, but we have to do it, we have to grow up, joe, we have to grow up as a nation. >> so can i ask you guys to come back next week and continue this discussion? we'll go longer and i'll get into more specifics. this is just sort of a general introduction to a lot of people who are asking a lot of questions on the left and the right about this issue. sound good? >> sounds good. >> any time. >> and joe, you know the conversations we had earlier in the show about january 6th, as eddie brought up and the op-ed we read about china and the importance of truth, i think in -- there's a lot we need to unpack here and this is not over.

christopher, eddie, thank you for the conversation. we'll right back. >> thank you so much. nversation we'll right back. >> thank you so much ♪ i never needed anyone. ♪ front desk. yes, hello... i'm so... please hold. ♪ those days are done. ♪ i got you. ♪ all by yourself. ♪ go with us and find millions of flexible options. all in our app. expedia. it matters who you travel with. alt rock icon liz fair is back with her first album in over a decade entitled "soberish". the latest effort received rave reviews with pitch fork calling it a sharply written record, with songs that unfold to reveal new depths of feel.

i spoke with phair to discuss the new album and kyle meredith joined in our conversation. >> i was reading about the album, i was reading about sort of your journey through the years and somebody had said that maybe there were things that you didn't realize about being a feminist when you first emerged on the scene that you can better appreciate now. i think a lot of that also has to do with the song writer. we were saying this before we came on air, but i love this line, i will open my arms and wrap them around you, which, of course, in soberish. if you had written that around 21, everyone would have been like that's such garbage. but in your 50s to say i will open my arms and wrap them around you is the punch line for the song. for anybody that's been around, that is a deep, deep dive into dark waters.

talk about that process of song writing now that you know everything that you know about relationships and life. >> i'm so glad you picked up on that line. it's true, in middle age to overcome your cynicism and just open yourself up to romance and accept another person with all the battle scars that you've been through in the dating game. it's incredible to kind of think of how i refocused myself at this age on the beginnings and endings of dating, rather than the main event. >> i was reading a great l.a. times article on you and there was one great line after another. by the way, one of them, we are living in a liz phair moment that beats, to paraphrase john lennon, that beats being called a [bleep]. we are living in had a liz phair

moment. talk about that and how everything has come full circle now. >> it's incredible to see what's happened with women speaking up and how many female artists there are working right now who are independent and the authors of their entire image. once upon a time, when i was coming up, it was cool just to be in a band and now you see so many people that are embracing -- i guess they're just taking front and center as women who design their aesthetic, their stage presentation. like you're really seeing what women would craft if they were given the power to do so. and it's very exciting to me. >> let's talk about when you decided to -- decided to do this album. you had taken quite a bit of time off, this is your first album in over a decade. but -- and i remember the time because it's like when i ran for politics, i ran for congress, i said i'm a lawyer, but don't

hold it against me, i'm a bad lawyer. i'm a musician, a bad musician but still i played live. we all remembered, prince died, bowie died, we all sat there going my god, talk about a sobering experience but that had an impact on you musically, didn't it? >> it did did. i was challenged by my manager. he asked me, he said we don't know how much time we have, nobody knows when we're going to go. he said to me, are you making the work that you want to leave behind if it were your last. and it was like this no. first of all i'm thinking, are you planning how to sell my record after i'm gone? are you like wheels and cogs turning going how are we going to get this done. but it did challenge me to put myself back into album making and care about every last note and detail.

so the way i'm working now is i kind of bring to the table everything i've got. >> let's talk about song writing in your 50s versus your 20s. can you talk about that process as an artist and as a song writer, and what you've learned as a song writer over this time? >> one of the weird things is, joe, my voice has gotten higher. i think i lived a little harder back then. >> wow. >> yeah. usually your voice deepens as you get older but i must have been smoking and drinking too much -- now i have a frog in my throat because it's morning and i'm a rock star. but it's incredible to think, 30 years and the kind of song writing is still about relationships and it's still about getting your heart broken. but this time i'm interested in

the nuance. i'm not pointing fingers going like you suck, i hate you. it's more about i suck, what did i just do to blow up my relationship? >> kyle, liz talks about her voice and it is pretty remarkable. you know, there are times where i -- i had an opportunity to interview bono and i talked to him after one of the later albums came out, i said, you do realize you're supposed to get worse with age. what was remarkable about this album, kyle, was that liz's song writing is better than ever, and her voice, she's right, it is so expressive. i think that's the thing i kept listening to, being so surprised that it's more expressive now than it was like in '93. >> this is a headphones record. this is the type of record when you put it on put it on in the headphones because there are so many things going on that you

wouldn't hear -- maybe you wouldn't hear just regularly. i would love to hear about that process as well because i guess if you want to say it, there's a lot of easter eggs happening on this record as well, right? >> a ton of easter eggs. brad wood the producer will be excited you said that word. he's waiting for all of you to get on the message boards going i found the easter egg. there was a real sense this time of playing with arrangement. like there's a lot of unusual arrangements, i'm putting in there, i don't know if you can hear, you will in the headphones, i'm putting two or three lead vocals in there, singing different lyrics, different melody, simultaneously because i believe that's the moment we're living in when we have all the input and stimulus coming in. we have multiple thoughts our thoughts are complex because the modern world throws so much information at us and i wanted

to reflect that in the pop song. you know, the classic pop song. >> what's next? now that we are moving beyond the pandemic, what's next for you? >> well, i'm going to go out on the road with alanis morissette and garbage and tour in august and september, which is very exciting and also makes me very nervous. here we are, i'm going to go from being in my home to being out in front of crowds, going from state to state in a bus. i'm taking practice walks, unmasked. i'm getting myself ready for all the -- i think psychologically we've all been going through a weird time and you have to retrain yourself to get back out there and feel confident. >> the album is soberish, the tour starts in august. thank you so much. we greatly appreciate you being with us. and good luck. >> thank you, joe. and thank you, kyle. thank you both for having me.

this was fun. >> you can see our extended conversation on our website, morningjoe.msnbc.com. that does it for us this morning. chris jansing picks up the coverage right now. >> i'm, i'm in for stephanie rhule, we start with breaking news. tropical storm elsa slammed cuba and now it's taking aim at south florida. the outer bands of rain and wind already making an impact and that's making it tough on rescue crews in surfside as they look for survivors in the rubble of the collapsed condominium. 28 people confirmed dead, 117 missing. i want to bring in sam brock, meteorologist bill karins and morgan chesky in surfside, florida.