latest on the situation. thank you. the fall of kabul appears to be imminent is the headline. >> we're sure courtney will be with us throughout the day, as well as our steam of correspondents to follow the latest. thanks for watching msnbc reports, "velshi" starts right now. i'm ali velshi, we're departing from our normal format for the news out of afghanistan where the taliban is closing in on kabul. the biggest city in the country. it does appear to be surrounded. this map is the latest we have, but it is not fully updated because this shows mazar-i-sharif under government control and it's not. jalalabad is not under government control any more. kabul appears to be completely surrounded.

this is a live look at kabul right nowk and here's where things stand. bagram air base which is typically 45 minutes north of kabul today because of traffic isl about two hours and now in the hands of the taliban. this ishe the base at which all americanic troops were headquartered in taliban. it was evacuated some weeks ago as part of the pull out from the u.s. forces from taliban. there are vehicles there. a lot of supplies there. this was supposed to be for the afghan government and the 350,000 strong afghan troops. it appears the taliban now have possession of that air base. they're emptying out the prison onng the air base. we have t images we have been seeing of prisoners just walking out of thater prison. 5,000 to 7,000 prisoners includingso some hardened talib and al qaeda fighters. afghanistan's interior ministry says that power will be handed over temporarily to a third

party. we don't know what thata means and we don't know who the third party is. we don't know exactly what the government of afghanistan is doing right now. nbc news reports that the u.s. embassy int kabul will be closg once all personnel are transferred out. that's supposed to happen within 72 hours and there have been images of 47 helicopters departing from kabul headed to the airport. the distance between the airport and the u.s. embassy, the u.s. embassy is in the north part of the controlled area of kabul and a straight shot to the airport and thereho are hundreds, actuay thousands ofhu u.s. troops just keeping those two places safe right now. we're also learning there have been erintense negotiations between the government and the taliban for safe passage of government officials and others out of the country. in fact, the u.s. ambassador basically to the taliban negotiations has askedal the taliban, do not come into kabul under strength under the

americans are out. so, it's not a question of they're not coming in, it's don't come in until americans and their allies are evacuated hopefully within 72 hours. the initial troop withdrawal from afghanistan to target multiple cities in recent days. this morning the taliban did seize control of the eastern city of jalalabad near the pakistan border. just yesterdaypa the taliban captured sharif after we were on air yesterday morning and jalalabad and kabul are still in government possession and now only one of those three cities are under control of the government.co we're not sure how much control the government has over kabul. this follows the taliban's recent capture of key cities of kandahar and, their spiritual home and take over of the country. right now 25 of the 34 capitals

are in taliban control and only one major city is not and that major city is kabul. joining me from there because you are going to find this man in a place where everybody else has left in many cases is my colleague richard engel. he is there now. richard, it is a confusing story from there. we have conflicting information where the taliban is, who is negotiating and where the president of afghanistan is and where control lies. tell us what you see. >> well, after 20 years of u.s. military presence here, after america's longest war the united states is leaving, the u.s. is evacuating personnel and it is doing it in a rushed way with helicopters and fixed wings flying over the city all day long. ferrying people out. it is an emergency evacuation. and the taliban have taken over all of afghanistan. there is really no afghan

government any more. the afghan government is currently negotiating its surrender. the afghan government does not control kabul any more. there are average citizens that will just rush up and pull a weapon away from a police officer because they want to show their own strength or whatever reason. you have a situation with the government collapse in city after city after city. it is collapsed here in kabul. the only thing we have not seen in kabul is the arrival in strength of the taliban and they are just waiting until the americans leave as the americans leave heading out rushing to the airport and then the taliban will come in and they are negotiating with the government on how that, what they consider aha victorious arrival into kab how that will be choreographed. >> we were talking about the

bagram air force base and you were on the air force base after troops have left and that is in the hands of the taliban and there is ahe prison on the base and we saw images of people streaming out of that prison and also we talked about the fact that america has trained troops. the taliban does not have pilots and airplanes and helicopters. tell me how this is all played out with the air base and the troops. >> actually, they do now have some helicopters. they have a lot of weapons and drones andea they have humvees d they have all their prisoners back. not just the taliban prison, there was a major prison at bagram air base that held between 5,000 and 7,000 prisoners, including many taliban dileaders, including al qaeda leaders. also the prison which is another prison in kabul. has also been broken into and had all the inmates freed by the

taliban. that's more, thousands more fighters. that's just today in the prisons that they've been able to break their fighters out around kabul today.le they've also taken their prisoners out of kandahar and several otherda cities. so, the taliban had been able to regroup their strength, reemass their forces. and some of the most hard core taliban and some of thest ones that will be the most dangerous when they come into places like kabul and other cities because they just have been imprisoned and imprisoned in this country is very tough. for many weeks now, there is no power inside the prison at bagram. the conditions are bismal. you could have thousands of peopleco coming out angry and victorious from thean taliban. that's coming to this city. the afghan army collapsed. it is no longer an army. it was able to sustain itself

for a little while because a couple units, the commandos in the air force were fighting and they, too, eventually were not able to keep the fight up on their own, especially as the taliban wasy gaining momentum d capturing weapons and the morale broke. because in war, it's all about momentum and it's all about morale and once the army's morale got destroyed, it was really game over. >> so the argument from the white house is that the afghan government enforcers will have to defend themselves and garner the will to do it. but the fact is yesterday joe biden announced another surge of troops into there which seemed to be just troops to secure the evacuation ofec americans and allies from kabul. there doesn't need to be any real discussion if kabul will fall to the taliban. >> oh, that is exactly what those troops are doing. there are taliban units that are operating openly and that moving openly and taliban prisoners

that streaming out of jails. there are 5,000 troops in this country. they're not attacking them. they are simply here to evacuate american personnel and get them out of the country safely. so, the taliban is giving the u.s. kind of a safe passage out of the country. many will see this in history as a humiliating exit for the united states after 20 years. >> if you could, richard, just when you have to go, just tell me. i want j you to paint a picturef what is going on. imagery from the skies of kabul right now and looks to be a blackhawk helicopters and chinooks which look to be evacuation helicopters. what is happening in kabul? are theyin using roads or helicopters to get the americans out? >> no, they are not using the roads. so, i can give you a little bit of a diagram. so, you see i don't know how clear the image is but you can see behind me there is a hill with aer castle on top and a lae flag.

the airport is just behind that mountain. the u.s. embassy is off camera, too, to my left. what we have been seeing all day are helicopters circling and they have beenli doing a loop fm the compound where the u.s. embassy is and several other embassies are there and a green zone, if you will. going towards the airport and certain other helicopters have just been circling to keep eyes on t the ground and force protection in place as this evacuation goes. right now it's fairly light. but an hour ago, two hours ago, maybe ten minutes from now therr were lots of helicopters circling at a rate one every minute ora so with helicopters going by. itg is the most air traffic i' seen in kabul in the last several years. >> final question, richard. it does not look like the fall ofik kabul and afghanistan once the capital city is gone.

going to be as a result of a gun battle or a fight between taliban forces and anyone else. it a does seem like negotiation are under way right including right in kabul at the presidential palace. we don't know if it is confirmed the taliban leaders are there negotiating some kind of a plan. >> that has been confirmed by two afghan officials. there has been some confusion about exactly which taliban leaders are present and it has not been disputed that the taliban is there and they are negotiating. the afghany , they didn't have fight. they fought with their reputation. they fought because their adversary was out demoralized a didn't fight back. and more their adversary the afghan security forces collapsed and the more weapons the taliban seized, the less motivated the remaining afghan forces were to

pick up their guns. and now we're seeing here in taliban some local police forces and i mentioned people are coming up and taking their guns and a sign of anarchy and lawlessness and the total collapse. also some police forces are taking off their uniforms. i think you can see some of the helicopters right now. that's one of the ones that has been circling all day and just sort of heading towards the embassy, banking and then going back to the airport. and it is constant. i expect for the next several days it will be a steady stream like this. they didn't have to fight the taliban. they don't have toth fight now kabul. they could clearly come in and take this city. it is not defended. there are not bunkers. there are not armed patrols and no military presence in this city. the taliban already did a couple small earlier on and didn't meet tremendous resistance. it is really now just about getting the americans out.

the taliban do not want to confront 5,000 american troops who will fight back very heavily if they're attacked and i don't think the taliban want to take these casualties. it's much easier for them. wait, what is it, 72 hours, first of those 72 hours and first 24 of them are almost gone anyway and then they get to take this city without losing a huge number of the lives. and i'm not sure if that is the same helicopter. it might be just circling around. but that is what we have been seeing and hearing all day. >> richard, you are not just here to be on tv to talk to us, you are there to bear witness and do reporting. you please go and do that. i am here. so,am when you have anything h available, just wave your hand and we will have you back on tv. stay safe. richard engel. >> there is plenty to talk about

about. thank you. joining me now is andrea mitchell. good morning. you have been reporting and talking to your sources about what is going on. the most amazing thing about it is that the request from g outh american officials to the taliban right now is please don't come in until our people are out.ti there is noop longer any conversation about holding kabul or holding afghanistan. >> absolutely. this is a transition that is being intensely negotiated, i'm told. a transition where contrary to everything the u.s. has been saying all along that the embassy would not be evacuated and then scaled down and then drawn down. they were freezing to call it an evacuation. as of this morning, it is a complete shut down of the embassy. they are saying in 72 hours and that is what they have been trying to henegotiate, which is peaceful transition, as well, as the afghan government. we're not sure who the afghan government is dealing with the taliban officials, presumably to

get the president not trusted by the u.s. and trusted by the u.s. negotiators to step down. itto has been sort of a coaliti government with abdullah having talked to secretary blinken as far as wese know at least yesterday and last night. secretary blinken going out and speaking on "meet the press" this morning. we'll get more details from him. contrary to everything the u.s. has been told andry everything e military saidd to my colleague courtney kube, this is not 90 days away, this is happening as we speak. and oneap of the big advantages that not only does the taliban have a military advantage and one of their biggest advantages was the fact that afghan forces from province to province, city to city until they were encircling the capital were laying down theirhe arms and

negotiating to try to get a car and to get out. they have fled in the face or surrendered and many, according to all the reports, many have been killed, executed as they're surrendering. it's not peaceful out in the provinces at all no matter what the taliban is saying. the taliban has also developed some very strong and savvy political arm. they have been in beijing. they've been in tehran and received in china and saying they are working with the u.s. and the u.s. is working with china ins negotiating with wor powers for weeks to try to bring about a peaceful resolution without turning this over to the taliban. now, these taliban representatives have been received as diplomats, visiting diplomats in these major capitals where we have been told as recently as this week at the state department our leverage is that we're saying in qatar where these talks have been taking

place to b the taliban that if u take this over militarily you will not be recognized by any world powers. by any u.n. group or anyone else by beijing, by russia. well, in fact, they have already been de facto recognized by having them visit these capitals.si that was not any leverage, any meaningful leverage to the taliban because the taliban have the facts one the ground is th they are taking over this country.th they may see it is a peaceful transition. we know their mo from before. i was in f afghanistan under taliban rule before 9/11 back in 1998 and i can tell you for women inel particular and for anyone who defied the military police who had patrolled the streets as i was there in these black pickup trucks with their ak-47s grabbing, arresting and executing daily except on the day of my visiting because i was with the visiting u.n. ambassador. there is no respite as far as we

know. they have become very, very savvy and for them to be negotiating in the palace right now with t the outgoing governmt that is collapsing and declaring their legitimacy by their presence and the u.s. negotiating with them to let our people out rather than having our people keep a skeletal embassy open is remarkable and they're showing that they can at least show the world. it is very important for them to show the world that this is not going to be a bloody assault on kabul, a city of 4.5 million people, plusil refugees, displad peoples, pouring in from the provinces. if they can show they have done this, quote, peacefully, by just a show of force, then that is a huge advantage as they try to declare themselves the legitimate ruler. >> we bring in our colleague from "new york times" helen. the taliban of 20 years ago did not have any legitimacy

anywhere. they didn't believe in government themselves. you're writing not only is what andrea said coming to pass but you wrote an article saying the afghan military does not believe itself in and most americans have lost faith in this war. the afghan military and the taliban, as andrea said, being recognized or having meetings in china and in the presidential palace right now and they are trying to develop legitimacy. >> yeah, it's been incredible to watch this complete collapse of all of the afghan institutions that the united states has spent so much time u putting in place over the past 20 years. the afghan military, in particular, i mean, the united states spent $83 billion to train, advise and assist to build up and buy warplanes and buy artillery, you name it, for the afghan national defense,

national security forces and they were able to fight a little bit. they were on the ground battling the taliban but the second the americans left after president bidenft announced his withdrawa in april sort of that backbone went away and melted awaiand one of the reasons why is that there is just simply very poor leadership in the afghan military. you have a very, you have politicians, defense officials and people who work with the afghan military say politicians who have not instilled this will to fight for the flag in afghan commander of troops on the ground. you haveon soldiers who have no been whpaid. you have soldiers who are sent out to the front without food and without equipment. proper equipment and without bullets and without proper guns

and so you end up in a situation where you have an advancing taliban, soldiers out in the front sent to meet them at remote places out in the country who don't have the proper backing and they're falling and sort of one pentagon official said to me last night that you can spend as much money as you want to build up a military but you can't buy will. you can't purchase the will to fight and that will is gone. that is not going to be there if you have politicians who are corrupt and if you don't believe in the government, you are there to fight and lay down your life for. while the n u.s., while they kn they had american forces backing them with air strikes and american troops on the ground sort of as a spine, they were able to hang tough for a while even though they were losing territory to the taliban. but once the americans left, you've seen what's happened and

it's been really sad to watch. >> and so much faster than anyone -- >> 18 months before you see this kind of b disintegration but it gone much, much faster. much faster than president biden was hoping to get some space between his decision to withdraw american troops and this saigon moment that we're seeing now. helicopters evacuating. he's got none. as you can see, this is happening even before the, deadline that president biden putad in place for withdrawing l american troops. there's a direct, it feels like there is a direct causal, cause and effect line being drawn right now. >> helene, like everyone working with me this morning, i know you're working journalist and let meng know if you have anythg

and bring you right back. joining me now democratic representative debbie. you and i were going to have a different conversation this morning, but things are developing very quickly. speaker pelosi has a briefing for you alllo in the next hour so so members of congress can be brought up to date on what is going o on. i know you're particularly plugged in. what isic your view of what we' watching live w this morning in what appears to be the imminent fall of kabul. >> so many different questions. you know, ali, what is bothering meis all weekend. this has become a forever war. traveling vietnam war came to oneme of my communities this we and a mother, a soldier that died in afghanistan, many of the vietnam vets there were 90. and the mother sent me, why did my child die?

why is it all for not? we need to remember that this war began after 9/11. we went in looking for osama bin laden who was threatening more terror against o us. the last ten years it has become a s forever war and we lost mor than 2,300 more american soldiers and more on the coalition. we need to be, we need to remember why it began so that nobody who served in afghanistan and does not know that they were there fighting for the right cause. but then we have to ask ourselves how long can this continue. there's some really difficult moral questions here that i think we're all grappling with today and it's really hard. >> it is hard and there are really twoan questions. the moral question. we know what andrea mitchell was just saying happened to women under the taliban and we're quite certain that that's going to happen again. there is also the other question that 9/11 happened because

afghanistan was a vacuum run by the taliban who back in the day couldn't organize their way out of a paper bag and they managed to invite people like al qaeda in who were not invited in by other countries. that vacuum became a launching pad for attacks against the west. what is to say a failed country doesn't become that again and how should we as americans be thinking about that? >> we need to be thinking about that. it is very real. you can see nobody would think afghanistan would fall this quickly. it will become grounds for worldwide terrorism and we have to figure out how we do that. america cannot do it alone. we willit have to be part of a united nations coalition or coalition with other countries. but terrorism remains very real. and were need to remember that. we've got both, by the way, domestic and foreign terrorism theseei days. i got to know many of those women. i was on the board of a number of groups that worked with those

girls and had gone back and i've already heard and talked to some this week and murdering these women already is absolutely terrifying. and as a woman, i'm scared to death for the women over there and theth interpreters and othe afghanistans that helped us. this is not easy. this is complicated, scary, frightening and we have moral responsibilities here, too. >> what do we, what do we do at this point? we're looking at a pull out in the next 72 hours. in fact, the 72 hours was asked for a fewwa hours ago. the united states will pull out of afghanistan. it is unusual because what we're hearing from richard engel and others, no battle going on. for most of the take over for afghanistan in the last three weeks or so, there has been no battle. the taliban are walking in and somehow the 350,000 troops armed

and0, trained by americans have not beenne able to withhold. in some cases, they're not fighting with the taliban. they're simply handing their cities and provinces over. >> you know, we heard some of it from the "new york times" report that they're not armed properly, they're scared and they don't have the willpower and resources and they don't knowlp what the future of the d country is. we've seen morey than 100,000 civilians have died for all of this. they're scared to death for their families and what is going to happen and all of us need to see this is not simple. we really have to do some soul searching about what is our moral responsibility in all of this. what is our responsibility in countries like this where the women are going to absolutely have no freedom or going to go back to being total servants and yet how many americans have to die?ca do we have forever war? i don't have answers. i'm not afraid to say i don't know what the answers are but i

sure didn't, i have been all week thinking about this since that motherg looked me in the e and asked me that question. >> hayeah, we don't have answer. we're thinking about this for 20 years and we don't know exactly whaton we're supposed to be thinking right now. congresswoman, thank you for joining me. you'll getjo updated within the hour and if you get any new information, you know where to find us. ier want to bring in my colleague ali arouzi. remarkable set ofou development. not a surprise. i think everybody understood that the afghan government would have trouble hanging but the surprise here is that americans are note fully departed and no for a day did the afghan government independently control afghanistan. it's not sure they'll make it t the end of today. as we see the sun is setting in kabul and it does not look like there is any chance of anything except a negotiation for a safe passage out of afghanistan for

americans and some afghan government leaders. >> absolutely, ali. it's been extraordinary quickly how it has been handed over to the taliban in such a short period of time. since 9/11 the american and nato forces have been in afghanistan. the taliban had taken over one major city and they only held on to that temporarily. but now in the last eight days, they've overtaken the country very, very easily and america has done what it can only be described as a somewhat embarrassing withdrawal after 20 years. desperately trying to get their personnel and forces out of the country, asking the taliban to remain quiet and calm until they've all gone and until the country is handed back entirely to the taliban and it really does raise the question.

what was this whole 20 years for? aside from trying to go after bin laden, aside from that what has been achieved in that country. i have spoken to 2.5 million afghans in iran who have desperately tried to flee what was going on in the country for the last two decades and they're so upset, ali. i can't begin to tell you. they feel betrayed and abandoned and a complete sense of hopelessness that the country is now once and for all gone. they don't see foreign troops coming back there and fighting with theco taliban. in fact, beyond that, they see the taliban getting legitimacy as andrea mitchell mentioned and asa you mentioned. the taliban have come to talks here in tehran and china and russia and in dohar with other western powers. so,n they're being recognized almost in their country and for regular afghans, that couldn't be a worse situation.

know, the small social reforms that we'd seen that the afghans had gained over these 20 years, those aree all going toe rolled back very quickly by the taliban. and they've been buying their time. i remember a year and a half ago i was in dohar and i interviewed the taliban's political director and he was essentially playing lip service. we'll have an all inclusive government there, women's rights will continue to be enhanced. it wasn't going to be like the dark days in the early '90s and none of that was true. we can see that is all going to reverse back to some of the worst periods in history. those days where you would see peopleou executed in soccer stadiums where the taliban would walk around kabul and grabbing people's beards and if it wasn't a full hands length they would beat them senseless. 13-year-old boys wouldn't have facial hair and be beaten by the

taliban and ite think that's wh is going to happen there. we have people who have worked for us, afghans making desperate phone calls saying if we could lend them money to get their wife and children out of afghanistan, they'll abandon their homes and anything else they have in their country to get their family over here. ali, a very difficult existence for afghan refugees that come to iran. forced to do menial jobs and often very dangerous jobs and they don't get paid very well and they don't g have benefits d their children can't go to school but still a lot better an option than remaining in afghanistan. >> ali, you can't see what i got here. you don't need to see it. it is a map of afghanistan and we are talking about the other countries speaking to the taliban. a little pieceea of afghanistan over here that borders china. about a 70-mile border. above afghanistan are the and down here at the bottom south is pakistan and over here on the

west is where you are, ali arouzi, iran. it's a muslim theocracy run by shia and they believe they are sunni muslims. what is iran's take on this? what are they thinking on this? they share a big border with what will be the taliban government. the only two theocracies as serious as they are when they form a government. what is they perspective from iran? >> well, ali, the two sides are idelogically opposed to each other. one is shia and one is sunni. they've never gotten along particularly well with each other. iran is talking to the taliban and let me tell you throughout the whole 20 years since 9/11. iran hedged its bets in afghanistan despite being, iran was giving money to the

government and they were arming the taliban just to see who takes control in that country to have half decent relations at least with them because they share this very long, porous border. as things have been unfolding recently in the last few days in afghanistan, iran has been recognizing the taliban there. they issued statements here saying that they have spoken to the taliban in places like harat which is very close to iran saying theto taliban have guaranteed the safety of iranian diplomats at their mission. iranians are not evacuating afghanistan and the diplomats are remaining in kabul and other places. so, they are staying put in afghanistan for now. one of the main reasons they're doing that is because the enemy of your enemy is your friend. nothing makes iran more happy than to see the evacuation of u.s. troops from its border and

to see this chaos unfolding in afghanistan benefiting iran. i saw an extraordinary video yesterday,ra ali, showing afgha military forcesin crossing the border into iran and very advanced equipment with very advanced vehicles and probably supplied to them by the u.s. that is all ending up in iran now and i can tell you the defense ministry in iran will be prettyir happy to get their han on that. so they're not going to want to exacerbate tensions with the taliban for now until the dust settles and they know what the situation is on the ground with them. they want to fill the vacuum that the u.s. has left. >> speaking of vacuums. what we are trying to get a handle on thisng morning, ali, what is happening with the afghan government such as it is. there are some reports, here's what we know. we know the taliban who were in dohar, qatar, where they were

holding negotiations with the afghan government and the americans and the chinese were there and ath lot of internatiol groups were there. someps of those delegates have w returned to kabul and they're in the presidential palace. they're negotiating something. and it sounds like what they're negotiating is the way in which afghan government officials can get out of kabul. there are unconfirmed reports that senior afghan officials are at the airport in kabul looking to getpo out. whetherto it's commercial fligh orr military evacuations. for the moment the kabul airport is still controlled, still in the hands of the americans. there are some discussion about the turks taking over control of the airport. but thel bottom line, there is the green zone where the embassy is and the airport and a road between them and that's what americans control right now. within 72 hours, that is not going toho happen. what happens to thing that was the afghan government? do they just evaporate. >> essentially they will evaporate or they will go into hiding or they will seek refuge anywhere that will take them

because it is going to be a very unsafe place for the afghan government despite any assurances the taliban may give. once the u.s. troops are out of there and they're officially in control of the whole country, i wouldn't want to be ex-afghan official and i wouldn't want to be a teacher in that country once the taliban takes over. their position is going to be very s unclear. as you mentioned, that delegation in dohar from what i understand almost that entire delegation has gone back to afghanistan to work on this transition. they're trying to figure out how to get the afghan government out of any official positions and put it in all positions and they don't want rivers of blood pouring down the streets of kabul right nowur while there i still foreign media there to say

they could do this in a relatively peaceful manner. that they have people on their sides. but once everybody's gone, the situation in kabul and all of those cities will become horrifying again for people that live there and don't have the same mindset as the taliban. >> i think that's important. that's the important thing. the important point that you made andth andrea made. let's not kid ourselves. the fact that the taliban are nowth prepared to negotiate wit other governments and other governments are recognizing them, doesn't mean it was a different taliban than it was in the '90s when they controlled afghanistan and no other way to objectively describe what afghanistan andob the taliban w like except for the word you just used, horrible. >> that's exactly it. that's the point that andrea made. they were very rough around the edges politically before 9/11. but over the last 20 years with advent of social media and

everything, they've realized how to navigate certain diplomatic fields and to make themselves more legitimate, if you will. but as you mentioned, that's not going to change the nature of who they are. they may be able to present the different face around the world toff governments here in tehranr in t dohar but they're still gog to want to run the show exactly like they did s 20 years ago. and any social reforms that have been made in that country over the last two decades are pretty quickly going to vanish in afghanistan.th and, you know, like i mentioned to you, they're desperately looking afghan people to get out of the p country and go to anywhere that will take them to try toe start a new life becau it really isn't a life under the taliban. >> however,he anybody who didn' get ayb visa is not getting one now because they're evacuating the u.s.e embassy and you can' get to able if you're else where in the country. this becomes a very problematic way of getting out of

afghanistan. there are porous borders and borders many countries. don't go far. we'll need your continueded analysis thisou morning. ali arouzi in tehran. joining us on the phone a kabulph based freelance journalt who is on the ground in kabul. matthew, what is happening right now in kabul. >> i've just been out in the streets for most of the day and there was sort of panic in the morning around 10:30 local time when the rumors spread that the talibanre entered the city. and there was rush and panic on the streets. everyonen trying to get home. as it stands, the taliban has not actually entered the city, as far as i can see. i have seen officers taking off theirrs uniforms and putting on clothes and walking away to find loved ones. >> wow, that's what richard

engel was saying that there are people, in thfact, going up to government forces and taking their weapons away and you're saying some ofay them are just evaporating. this is the fascinating part. the argument that supported the u.s. withdrawal from aghanistan 350,000 trained afghan troops thataf have air superiority. and they are trained as pilots andra they have american materi and american vehicles and weaponry and we are wondering why this morning that the taliban seems to have taken over most of the country without too many bullets shed and that they are s about to take over the capital under a negotiated agreement that the americans leave and they walk in. i've been thinking and asking all morning, how do they do that with afghan-trained military on the ground and you're describing the fact that they are literally collapsing. >> yeah, well, at this point it's quitet obvious that the government has lost the war and if you're an individual soldier, you're not going to fight and die for lost cause so people are really just trying to get home

and get home and safe to loved ones. matthieu, what is the mood on the street? are people going about their business and are people out there watching what is going on and have you seen any taliban within kabul? >> i have not seen any taliban forces within kabul. there are, i think some that are coming in and actually arranging for certain to surrender. there haven't been any groups of taliban that i've seen here. all of the shops are closed for the most hopart. people shuttered down and gone home and streets are fairly empty of traffic, except for taxies. you see taxies stopped and groups of soldiers and former soldiers and former police negotiating and get out. >> what does getting out mean, by the way? sort of four main roads in different directions, you know,

almost out of kabul and the taliban controlled most of them. short of getting to the airport, where do people go if they don't want to be in kabul and, frankly, is it better anywhere else? >> well, from what i understand there's whactually civilian traffic that has been flowing across the front lines. so, i think people are just trying to cross over and get back to their home provinces. many of these government forces, you know, just today i was talking to a police in the street who was saying, you know, wondering how you get back to a remote mountainous province. it's a very surreal atmosphere here. a lotea of people kind of standg on theeo street watching and wondering what will happen next. >> matthew, this is a lot of people who were in places that the taliban have taken over in the last few weeks have migrated to kabul thinking it would stay safe for longer than other places.an we have heard descriptions of

things that look like parks taken over by tents and refugees. have you seen any of that? >> yeah, there's a park in the center of the city that had refugees in itt for at least a week or so now and it's still full of people. hopefully if things calm down people will get to go home because they're living in quite desperate situations on the streets. >> matthieu, i want to ask you one thing a straight road from the u.s. embassy which is at sort of the north end of the green zone to kabul airport which is still controlled by u.s.rp troops. however, in the imagery we're seeing, we're running on tv, a number of blackhawk helicopters for security and patrol and there's smoke risingat somewher. isi don't know if this is a liv picture. we're seeing black smoke in kabul. but, matthieu, we're seeing

chinook helicopters, are the roads open and do you know why they're flying people out by helicopter? is that a security measure? >> they are movinge between th airport and the green zone by helicopter for years now for security reasons. we wentse into that round about and we saw the air traffic flying raoverhead, chinooks and the afghan government heading towards the airport. there's an apache circling overhead that's been providing security. so, there's also a lot of government convoy racing through the streets, as well. an extraordinary scene.di so far from what i've seen it's been peaceful. >> stay safe, i will come back to you because, obviously, this is developing quickly. we're starting to see. got a little bit darker there. i don't know if it's getting darker because it is getting late or smoke in the sky.

matthiue, we'll come back to you. you just heard that description about what is going on. the corridor between the top of the green zone, come is the american embassy and the airport is secured by these helicopters. there are helicopter evacuations under way. the americans have asked for. tell me if i'm right, they asked for 72 hours before the taliban enter the city. richard says there are some taliban around the city. we've seen images of it, but not coming in as a force just yet. they have issued to say that they surrounded the city and will come in under a negotiated agreement. >> i think that that is correct and i think from what i'm hearing from the state department officials it's going to be, they hoped 72 hours but they have a pretty good understanding as best they can for what is going on in dohar where they have contact with

taliban leaders and with what they're hearing from some afghan officials who are in direct contact with taliban leaders that they will have that amount of time to get people to the airport. for them to get fixed wing flights out of the country with sufficient capacity to have everybody out of the airport is most likely not possible. but to get them to the airport where they already had turkish troops and uk troops and other nato allies there helping us at the airport, that was the agreement. as well, of course, the 5,000 troops that have flowed in that our pentagonwe officials have bn announcing. that might be able to protect people to remain at the airport for some time beyond the 72 hours. but at least trying to get all u.s. personnel out of that embassy by that deadline, if that is the final deadline with the taliban. and the taliban has every reason to not make this a bloody urban battle forur the capital of

afghanistan. they have taken afghanistan now that they have the military strength and have taken all the other cities around every province. so, at this point, they are in control. it is just a matter of doing the political agreement and having the exit of the ghani government and getting all of this done within the next couple days. it's extraordinary on every level. as to the safety of the u.s. personnel, the hope, the prayer if you will, is that these commitments will hold and that people will be able to exit safely. an assault on that embassy would be something, you know, ferocious, as well. it's a fortress as our embassy in baghdad, i stated i have been there many times when i've been inn kabul on past missions. and that would not be an easy attack. but the rest of the e city, of course, is entirely vulnerable to the taliban and the presidential palace now has

clearly been the sight of some negotiations with taliban leaders. >> in fact, over the last few years the taliban has had some success ind breaching that gre zone in certain cases. one time at a go, but they've beengo successful. andrea, lots of people didn't believe in the war in afghanistan. they thought it wast entered i to for the wrong reasons. itro was strategically not well thought. it was s a forever war. but what i'm looking for is your perspective on the idea that the taliban are a dangerous group of people. they do give quarter to people who don't get quarter anywhere else fromte functioning governments. how do weti think about that pa of things? might be getting american troops out of there and maybe not a war that america could ever win. butou all of the attempts to bud civil society intt afghanistan d there were legitimate attempts. real infrastructure built. there were things really done in the last 20 years. what happens to the world when that all goes away? how concerned should we be that

lawlessness may prevail again in afghanistan? >> i think very, very concerned. the mantra of every president, certainly of president trump when henl announced the withdral and now president biden have been that what we went in for was to make sure that al qaeda was decimated, that happened with the decapitation of bin laden and the, you know, the rest of the fighting against al qaeda. of counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency force there is, you could stabilize afghanistan with that number of troops, as we did in iraq. after the withdrawal from iraq, they then hadro to go back in. and when isis developed, and came close to 50 miles from baghdad. and so they -- the u.s. sent

forces back in. and with 2,500 forces were able toce stabilize iraq and build u the iraqi army and create a government that is actually a functioning government and an ally. that has not taken place in afghanistan. because in enafghanistan, the ghani government really never maintained control over very much beyond the capital city, and he never had the popular support that at least has provisionally been afforded to the iraqi leaders finally, after many many years, and many losses. this has beenye a nato operatio from the beginning. it was the one and only time you will remember that nato ever invoked article v, which is that an attack on one country is an attack on all. that was after 9/11, on our paragraph. one of our supreme allied commanders of nato was in chargi of that nato operation and has

been a source wisdom for us on how all of this has transpired. but afghanistan is not iraq. not geographically. you know, it doesn't even have the potential that iraq has to become a functioning society. and i think the building of civil society was something that most people would defend because what we inherited from the taliban inom 2001 was a society where women were being decapitated for doing something as innocent as trying to teach other girls, trying to live a life of dignity and human rights. so that is the fear, of course, among the women's groups, and other groups, that this entire civil society that has been built where music, and art, and culture, and sports, and other activities can be -- you know,

can function will be wiped out. has the taliban changed? not likely. they certainly would have to prove that by changing their political and domestic agenda for afghanistan. but they would most likely still harbor terror groups, and al qaeda could be formed or other groups could be formed, just as they did in iraq until we got back ilin. so that has been the argument. now the counter argument, i should point out from the state department officials throughout this, and military officials, andta from the white house has been that it would take more than w a residual force to prevent -- or to resolve this civil war, that it was an all-out civil war, and we would on sending in, surging 40,000, 50,000, 1 u.n.,000 more troops and that is not sustainable after 20 years and that it shouldn't be our fight. but i think that the larger picture also, aside from what

happens in afghanistan is that american leadership in the world is going to be very much questioned. it already was questioned by some of the peaceful things, such as getting out of the paris -- you know, paris climate accord, and some of the other things that donald trump did, the iran nuclear deal, with iran now getting closer and closer to having enough fuel for creation of a weapon, although they say they are not trying to build one. but that has been a disastrous outcome from, you know, nuclear foreign policy experts, many of them who say that just giving up our ability to monitor iran close lieu through the u.n. has been a tremendous loss over the past year. that -- still, american leadership is going to be questioned becausesh we have broken treaties under donald trump, and now we are withdrawing. even though it was a commitment by trump to get out my may 1st.

and they say they had to live up to that because otherwise it would have been a bloody civil war on may 2nd, it's on joe biden's watch. he inherited this, but he's carrying out the withdrawal and critics say that he had some options. >> andrea, stay close. we will continue to cover this as it is happening. as you canis see on the screen the left of the tv we are seeing helicopter movement between the u.s. embassy and somewhere in the greenom zone, a secure arean baghdad and the baghdad airport. both of which are under taliban control. that's a chinook. it can carry about 30 troops on it. if o they are evacuating people you could imagine there would be 30 people on that helicopter. courtney, you first reported on the bagram airbase, which is north of kabul, some distance away. but it was the basis for

operations for american troops. a f few weeks ago richard engle was there. he was showing us it was abandoned but lots of stuff there, vehicles and things like that. you are telling us now thatin t taliban have that? >> that's right. it was turned over from the u.s. to the afghans several weeks ago.fg with it went vehicles, equipment, weapons. i mean, just -- on top of that, a sprawling infrastructure that theuc u.s. and nato allies had built over two decades there. that all went to the afghans several weeks ago and is now -- according to the two defense officials it is now in the hands of the taliban. critically, not just the location right outside of kabulo not just the equipment that's there. butt' there is a prison facilita large prison facility that is sort of f jart or colocated wit bagram right there that we are told, according to these defense officials, the taliban took the prison facility, and they have emptied it out.

why that is so important here is because there are severale thousand -- the numbers vary but we know there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,000-plus prisoners at that facility. and some of them are hardened taliban and al qaeda fighters. this was a facility that the u.s. actually had a task force that was attached there for years. and part of the reason was they --e some of these fighter particularly these al qaeda ones, are very dangerous individuals. and so the u.s. maintained a presence there until they turned it over several years ago to the afghans. as i said, according to defense officials the prison has been breached and the prisoners, many, if not all of them, have been release. this keeps in line with what we have seenn the taliban do all across the country over the last several weeks, particularly in the last several days. when they come into an area, as they take it over, they are emptying the prisons out.

they are growing their ranks of fighters as they do so. they are taking over afghan military equipment,g much of which has been supplied and funded by the u.s. and u.s. taxpayers. the taliban are rolling in, taking the area, taking the equipment, and releasing prisoners as they move through the area, as the afghan military has fallen, the taliban has strengthened. they have gained momentum and more and more momentum as they go. now, as we have seen, they are inside of kabul and they have taken bagram. we have seen a number of very symbolic victories for the taliban over the last several days. this is definitely a big one, too. >> to be clear, the extra troops, i think the total now 5,000, from 2,500 or 3,000, these are not meant to be combat troops. there is an understanding that the taliban will not get into a

shooting war with these troops. >> exactly right. many of them are infantry troops, they have the ability to go into combat. look, if they are threatened, if there is some threat, they will -- they have the inherent right of definite services. but their mission is very tailored and very specific. and that is the evacuation the americans from the embassy, and then helping with any evacuation of afghans who are eligible for the especially e immigrant visar who are eligible to get out under some sort of a u.s. diplomatic means. it will be a very -- according the defense officials -- they are quick the point out, this is not a long-term mission. that beinglo said one of the wot case scenarios that i have been hearing about particularly in the last several days is this concern that the taliban as they move into kabul, particularly if they start a big offensive in kabul, that they will head rate

is for the airport and try to take the airplane and cut off people from both coming and t going in and out of the country. if that were to happen, big if. then the u.s. military, who are there, they will work to defense any u.s. americans who are there and to keep the airport open so they can get the americans out safely. also, though, it's important to point out, you know, there were about 1,000, less than 1,000 u.s. troops who were already there. only about a1,000, not really full 1,000 have made their way in. that total of 5,000. they are not there yet. >> yeah. >> the current plach is according to defense officials is to continue to flow those people in. but this is all happening so in quickly, you have to wonder in the next 48, 72 hours f they are not in there, are they going to have time to get all of them in. >> a looking at pictures, with helicopter evacuations from the green zoneli to the airport, th are looking to get this place cleared out faster than it would probably