ask your provider if cologuard is right for you. count me in! me too! it's 4:00 in the east where the investigation into a tense hours' long standoff today between u.s. capitol police and a man claiming to have an explosive device in his pickup truck. the suspect in question surrendered to authorities this afternoon where he was parked in front of the library of congress, which is just steps away from the u.s. capitol. as we speak, that man is in police custody. among the most pressing questions right now, was he acting alone? was his vehicle really rigged to blow up, like he said? and what exactly was his motive, what was his inspiration? on the last question there are no firm answers yet, but there are certainly some clues,

starting with several anti-government comments he made on facebook live during his standoff with police today. and, of course, no matter what his motive is, this underscores the ongoing danger faced by u.s. capitol police in the months since january 6th and the urgency of another brand new dhs bulletin released just late last week that warned of a heightened threat of domestic terrorism. it is against that backdrop that today's incident played out among the police and residents of capitol hill. we start with some of our most favorite reporters and friends on this breaking news story. nbc news investigation correspondent tom winter, capitol hill correspondent garrett haake is here for us, near the site of the bomb threat, and former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence and msnbc national security analyst, and our friend, former

senior aide to mike pence and director of the accountability project. tom winter, take me through all of nbc's reporting. i know a lot of it is pete williams' great reporting on where the investigation stands and who this suspect is. >> at some point this morning, nicolle, essentially this person drives up in front of the library of congress. there's pictures and photos of money all over the ground, so perhaps he threw money all over the ground, then picked up the phone and calls 911, as you said, according to our colleague, pete williams, he picks up the phone and engages in several hours worth of conversations with police in kind of a rambling live stream post on facebook and then ends up with this exclusive video we're looking at now, which is his surrender to law enforcement and subsequently he was taken into custody. in the course of the conversations, the person, who multiple law enforcement advise identify as floyd roy

rosenberry, last known address from north carolina. apparently this individual made several statements about a bomb or explosives, multiple explosives that he had either on his possession in the car or located elsewhere in washington, d.c. he made statements that he had different types of explosives, had some sort of a cylinder which he showed during the course of this live stream, so that's what we know as far as what he says he had. now, the question, and you kind of alluded to it, is whether or not he actually had a real explosive or explosives in that vehicle. that's going to take some time. when you look at a bomb squad investigation, there's really no rush. now, there's a tremendous inconvenience to people in the capitol hill area. you're looking at the police scene there. garrett haake is inform us as far as what's going on on the ground. from a bomb squad perspective, they want to take their time. they have robotic equipment and

the ability to x-ray, the ability to use what's known as a disrupter, think of it as a laser beam but made out of water where they can tear through the cylinder he was holding or anything else and destroy it in a way that would not set off any potential explosive device, rendering it safe while maintaining the evidentiary value. it seems quite clear at this point that we know who is responsible if there is in fact a bomb in the vehicle, but it's still important. that's what's going on from a law enforcement perspective. he made a number of rambling statements and i think we'll be cautious not to amplify his message in a way that would not encourage copycats here, but talked about a coming revolution and several other political-type statements, but did not have a very coherent message, nicolle. >> we don't want to amplify his message, but i think we want to give dhs credit for this warning. i'll read the warning first and

then what is reportable about his message. this is part of the bulletin released this past friday, less than a week ago. quote, the homeland continues to face a diverse and challenging threat environment, leading up to and following the 20th anniversary of the september 11th, 2001 attacks, as well as religious holidays that could serve as a catalyst for acts of violence. these include those posed by domestic terrorists, individuals in groups engaged in grievance-based violence and those inspired or motivated by foreign terrorists and other influences. these actors are increasingly exploiting online forums to influence and spread violent extremist narratives and promote violent activity. such threats are exacerbated by impacts of the ongoing pandemic. so everything that our federal law enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies knew might

happen isn't always in a bulletin, but what they thought was helpful to release to police departments all over the country was put in what i just read. and here is what is reportable, as tom says, we're not sharing this in terms of amplification, we're sharing it in terms of starting to understand what it is that our intelligence agencies and law enforcement agencies are worried about. mr. roseberry, the alleged wannabe bomber today addressed president joe biden, made several demands, including wanting american air strikes in afghanistan, and the resignation of biden, saying he would end his standoff if the president left office. frank, this seems to be the kind of individual that homeland security experts are concerned about. >> indeed. first, let me say kudos to the authorities today for successfully resolving this peacefully in the form of a

surrender. that's the outcome you want every single time. but you don't want these kinds of things happening all the time. so this investigation is going to be just as much about learning about the suspect as about learning about the next one, and that's because the context we're living in right now is precisely what's reflected in those dhs warnings. it will start playing out. what we're seeing in this individual's social media already and the associates that i work with who are on this and digging and scraping his social media, his postings, they're telling me there is a deep sense of cause, as in co herrant as it may be, there's several grievances he thinks he needs to air out. and why do we care about this? why are we talking about it? as you said, it's not to amplify

him. it's to amplify the dhs warning that tells us that there's a perfect storm of grievance and cause developing on extremist sites of all kinds. what is it? and now let's add, by the way, let's add to what i'm about to list afghanistan and a sense that something went wrong there and somehow that's an injustice, perhaps, to those who served there or not. but let's rattle it off. the anti-mask, the anti-vaccine, the january 6th political prisoner notion, the notion that ashley babitt is some kind of martyr that needs to be avenged and now that trump will come back and a rally is going to happen this weekend in alabama. all of this is going to happen and then a major rally that's been permitted already in the district of columbia later in september, all of this is causing a kind of online radicalization that, quite frankly, i have not seen since

my days working al qaeda/isis. it's online, it's the desire to be a part of something greater than yourself and your willingness to act out violently because of your beliefs. >> frank, let me just follow up, and i share the discomfort and the sort of tension about amplification, but i think that some of that discomfort is how we're here, because on the right -- you know, i want to mention one other topic, and i'm not going to play it. i watched it. i'm not going to show it. but the other topic is a lot of complaints about undocumented immigrants, what is being broadcast night after night on other networks as we cover the withdrawal from afghanistan. fearmongering about refugee resettlement. it is a pipeline to a whole lot of people that are not inspired to violence. but for he and she who are inspired to violence, there is a direct line from the

disinformation and the fearmongering in right-wing media. >> yeah, this notion, look, we've already seen it in postings, even from members of congress showing the potential for refugees pouring out of afghanistan, these people aren't like us, do you want this plane landing in your backyard. all the fearmongering on top of the craziness that's already here. and there are those who will say you can't anticipate and leadership should never anticipate a crazy person doing something like this all by himself that happened today. that's right, except that's not where we're at right now. the craziness, the unhinged people, the people willing to commit violence are becoming large enough and no longer a fringe and now mainstreamed that we do have to worry about them and we do have to worry about the next one. so the fbi is going to dig deeply into this guy's background not just to make a case against him, that's already made, but quite frankly, to

figure out where he got radicalized, who else is like him, who else is in the wings ready to commit the kind of violence that dhs is warning us about. >> garrett haake, you've been at the capitol. i thought about the testimony given by officer harry dunn at the first public hearing of the january 6th select committee when he talked about the ptsd that some of his fellow officers still have from january 6th. since january 6th, there have been two subsequent, this is the second, the other one was in april, police incidents at the capitol. just take me inside what today was like and how capitol police officers are doing. >> reporter: i think there's a real sense of exhaustion among capitol police and among the capitol community more broadly. obviously from january 6th to the good friday incident where officer billy evans was killed, that was also on a recess where

fewer people were here and people were trying to recharge their batteries. that was the case again today with the capitol and the surrounding complex mostly empty. a lot of people working from home because of the combination of the recess and the concerns about the delta variant, and i heard from a lot of my friends and sources on the hill that this was just kind of one more blow, one more psychic wound after a year that has been so exhausting for all of those reasons, for the threats against this as a place of work for so many thousands of people, amid the work they're trying to do. and i've been talking to capitol police officers all the time and i've heard some concern from them about the upcoming rally in september, that frank mentioned, where that's expected to be kind of one of the first big large-scale protest-type events on the hill in the post january 6th, post covid era where there's anticipation of a lot of folks coming back and there's a

little bit of dread and foreboding towards that. obviously today's incident ended nonviolently. they just reopened the street where i'm standing, which suggests to me capitol police don't believe there's something in the truck that's going to level blocks in the city. but this community is worn out by this kind of thing. protests are one thing. i said it last summer, there's nothing more american than coming to dc and yelling about your political beliefs or telling your member of congress you think they're doing a crummy job, but leave your bombs at home. i think that sentiment would be widely echoed by everyone in this community, who are over this sort of thing. >> did you hear from any lawmakers, garrett, who expressed any renewed concerns about the security plans for that building and that neighborhood? >> reporter: continued concerns. renewed suggests that it went away. there is a widespread sense that there's still a target on the back of this community. i think the good news, remember,

that security supplemental, $1 billion for additional capitol security, has passed, has been signed into law. that's something like $300 million for hardening this complex here, $100 million for capitol police. they're trying to surge resources into this area without making it a fortress, to make everyone feel more safe, including those people who are charged with protecting this whole area for the rest of us. >> olivia, let me just bring into this conversation the elephant in the room. for the last seven days there's been a pretty intense debate going on about whether the withdrawal from afghanistan, which is undeniably chaotic, but whether the result of leaving around this 20th anniversary of 9/11, and seeing the taliban take control of that country, whether that puts into motion the conditions that led to al qaeda taking up shop in 2001 there. it is abundantly clear that the

gravest domestic -- the gravest terrorist threat is violent extremism, this is what dhs has been telegraphing for many months now. an aggressive posture toward foreign terrorism and that threat has historically been bipartisan. the recognition of the threat of domestic violent extremism is not even something that most people on the right right now at the national level can even say out loud. it doesn't even come out of their mouths. how can we be successful in the fight against domestic violent terrorism if one of the two governing parties doesn't recognize it and agree that we need to stomp it out? >> i think you nailed it and i think it makes this problem that much more complex and more challenging for our homeland security enterprise. the system is working, they put out that threat advisory. i'm glad to see the system working and dhs can speak freely about these threats and call it for what it is.

but i think we are going to see ongoing challenges. we're in a moment of consequence right now. and i'll be looking to see what these influencers, these leaders who have led a lot of this divisive rhetoric, who continue to lead that right now with their comments about what's happening in afghanistan and comments on refugees and all of this nativism rhetoric that they continue to push that creates divisiveness across our country, it will be interesting to see their comments on how they respond to this situation, this threat on the capitol that once again played out today. and whether he was a lone wolf actor or whether he is part of a network, i do think we are going to continue to see incidents like this because they're being driven by narratives on social media and they're seeing elected leaders speak this way and seeing it on networkst this is a combination of all of the influence coming together and it's cause for concern and i think the individual coming into

town, and the investigation will play out, but the pinnacle is attacking the u.s. capitol and being anti-government and attacking some of these leaders and naming a lot of the democratic leaders that right now are in office. and where is that being driven from? it's being driven by the narratives being pushed by the far right and also irresponsible republicans and the way they are speaking about others and things that they're doing. >> frank, we had some of these painful conversations after the mass shooting in el paso, the manifesto that was decidedly anti-immigrant. we gnaw have a successful law enforcement story, but another ominous, haunting sign of someone driven to attempt to allegedly do something violent at the u.s. capitol with an alleged bomb. where does law enforcement go from here in terms of following the threat, following the language, following the police

system and finding, as olivia is saying, the lone wolves capable of violence? >> the challenges are growing exponentially here as law enforcement tries to battle on a domestic front a growing violent domestic threat and now has to look overseas, again, as they've done successfully since 9/11 to try to thwart any attempt of these so-called 5,000 hard-core terrorists that have been released from bagram prison by the taliban who are going to look for a fight, try to get out through pakistan or some other country, and come at us in the west. and now in an era where we can't agree bipartisan form on what domestic terrorism looks like, now we have, for example, a member of congress who posted that the taliban seems to be the only people who are building back better.

don trump jr. posted agreement with a taliban leader who said there aren't freedoms and freedoms of speech in the united states. john jr. agrees with that. so we're looking and asking our law enforcement to be all things to all people, and i'm telling you, the threat is going to play out not just all about dc. i mean, god bless the folks who responded today very well. but with all of the mask mandates in school systems, school board meetings turning violent, proud boys getting violent in los angeles, law enforcement throughout the united states, perhaps in communities that have never had to deal with this before, are now going to have to be very vigilant and on watch, and the challenge is going to persist for some time. >> tom winter, you've got your finger on the pulse of what that reality is like for law enforcement. let me give you the last word on this. >> just two brief points. the first is what i don't like is somebody who covers counterterrorism, and i can tell you i'm sure what law

enforcement is thinking about, frank is absolutely right that the threat could spread across the country. but what you saw today is now the third incident, as garrett haake spoke to, at the u.s. capitol or near the u.s. capitol in this calendar year, starting with the events of january 6th. that's concerning. if the united states capitol is now the focal point for people to believe that they can act out or be violent or be extremely violent, that's a concern given the sprawl of that complex, its importance to this country, the lawmakers that are there every single day. so that's the first point. the second point is you brought up the dhs intel bulletin. people i speak to in counterterrorism look at it in two ways. it's not a particularly great product because it lacks a lot of trend information, a lot of data hard points, a lot of the type of specific and credible information that can help guide law enforcement. on the other hand, they look at it and say it is very indicative of this threat that we have in

this country, built on disinformation, if you read some other intelligence products, that are driving this kind of anger and very heated rhetoric, and it leads to -- it doesn't matter whether the message is jumbled or not. it can lead to a very violent outcome and that is definitely concerning, nicolle. >> i know you guys have been covering this all day. i'm grateful to all of you for starting us off this hour. thank you so much to my colleagues, tom winter and garrett haake and thank you frank and olivia, for helping us make sense of it. after the break, the white house celebrating a momentous new milestone in the pace of vaccinations as schools begin to get creative about how to keep their kids and teachers safe. plus, the sharp political divide emerging on president biden's withdrawal from afghanistan and signs he may have more public support than the critics would have you believe. and the democrat in a red state who is staking her candidacy on exposing the gop as the threat

to democracy she believes it has become in the wake of january 6th. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. edical app men. that's why i started medhaul. citi launched the impact fund to invest in both women and entrepreneurs of color like me, so i can realize my vision and give everything i've got to my company, and my community. i got you. for the love of people. for the love of community. for the love of progress. citi. we did it again. verizon has been named america's most reliable network by rootmetrics. and our customers rated us #1 for network quality in america according to j.d. power. number one in reliability, 16 times in a row. most awarded for network quality, 27 times in a row. proving once again that nobody builds networks like verizon.

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hellbent on mask requirements for students and staff. education secretary miguel cardona said he will employ the education department civil rights enforcement arm to investigate states that block universal masking. the move marks a major turning point in the biden administration's effort to get as many students as possible back to in-person schooling this fall. that federal commitment comes at a time of great tension for many school districts in republican-led states. in florida, for instance, four of that state's five largest districts are now openly defying ron desantis and his ban on universal mask rules. the same battle is playing out elsewhere. administrators in texas face a similar situation with their republican governor. one school there forced to get creative, circumventing the state ban on mask mandates, by including masks as part of their dress code. joining our conversation, msnbc news and host and executive

producer of the emmy nominated "the circus" on showtime and host of the podcast, and former congresswoman donna edwards, an msnbc contributor. i want to do the vaccine news first, because this white house has been battered for the last seven days over the chaos that's ensued in afghanistan. i worked on afghanistan issues, you have both dealt with them. donna you as a policy-maker, and i think a lot of parents are thinking is the delta variant going to rob my kid of a school year or break through and compromise an elderly parent. i think it's a huge deal that we're back up at 1 million vaccinations a day, john heilemann. >> a huge deal.

hi, nicolle. that was not me calling your phone. >> the wheels are off. this never happened to me. i apologize. >> you know, look, it's a huge deal and i think, you know, part of the reason why even in the face of this delta variant part of the reason why joe biden had been on -- has had, through much of his time through taking office has been steadily popular and has been in a position to push his domestic agenda through congress, is because there's been a lot of confidence in his ability to deal with whatever comes on the covid front. look, history will tell the tale that the scale of the challenge that he faced when he became president in terms of administering, deploying, distributing, vaccinating this country, is one of the great challenges that any president has ever faced, and he by any standard has been incredibly

successful at it. the fact that we still have so many unvaccinated people in america, goes to not failures of the administration, but goes to the poisoned political atmosphere that the former guy left on the question of covid. and so the fact that even in the face of all of that poison politics and the fact that masking somehow became a political issue and part of the culture wars, none of it had anything to do with joe biden, the fact that the administration has done as well as it has done in the face of all of that is to its lasting credit, and i absolutely think you're right. however, and this is not a critique, just a fact, the reality is that people are scared right now and people are scared about this variant and they're scared about what it means for their families and they're scared about what the long-term solution to that problem is, which is the mass of unvaccinated people who continue to be a threat to all of us so long as they continue to not do what common sense and science tells them is the right thing to do. >> yeah, i mean, donna, i think

that covid is providing a real psychological study, incentive structures, and the president came in and started distributing the vaccine at a time when demand outpaced supply. that quickly flipped and the dynamics of trying to incentivize people to protect themselves, protect their kids, especially kids under 12, that it failed is another thing that i'm sure we'll look at for a very long time. how are people not incentivized to protect themselves and loved ones. but they're not. this aggressive phase says a lot about the country. you get vaccinated and we're going to support businesses that mandate it and support schools that want to defy their republican governors and do it anyway. it feels like an important shift for this administration and one that appear to be working. >> and i think surpassing the 1 million mark is the covid

version of scared straight. people have really been frightened into believing, finally, that this vaccine is the way to stop this thing. and then, you know, shifting over to the more aggressive mode, i'm actually glad to see this from the administration, because it's really clear that there's a significant partisan divide in terms of those who are getting vaccinated or not, those who are wearing masks and not. and i think the federal government has to take a hard line because it really threatens all of us. part of the reason this delta variant was enabled to take hold is precisely because we had not reached significant enough vaccination rates. and so we don't want another variant to take hold for the exact same reasons. so this is the time to get tough and i look at some of these red state governors in a state like mississippi, if you're a parent in mississippi, 20,000 students are in quarantine right now

because the governor decided that masks were not a good idea. and five students have died. so this is really significant and people can see it in their own communities and their families, maybe more will be getting vaccines. but the federal government has to clamp down in order for the rest of us to be able to survive this thing. >> yeah, i mean, talking about what the look back will be, we know how to keep kids alive inside a classroom, and they're five easy things. i talk about them most days on this show. a vaccine mandate for everyone eligible, mask mandate for everybody vaccinated and unvaccinated, some testing for the entire school population, three feet distance and pods and cohorts. i mean, what desantis has done and abbott is deprive schools of the one thing that you can do if you can't do any of those other four things.

masks are cheap, most kids adapt to them instantly, and the refusal to mandate them is the most explicit sort of dereliction of duty in our modern politics. >> well, of course, it's worse than that, nicolle. it's not the refusal to mandate them. it's the attempt to punish school districts that mandate them. it's actually a greater dereliction of duty than the one you laid out. the one you laid out is terrible enough, but the notion that ron desantis and other governors are trying to punish educators for using the limited tools at their disposal under the law in the way that they have been, it's beyond their dereliction of duty. it's screamingly, painfully immoral, i would say. it's like taking your duty and lighting your obligation to the safety of your citizens on fire. and i think, you know, the stuff we saw from joe biden yesterday, these are limited -- you know,

he got tough, as donna suggested. he started to show that the stick is coming out. it's not just going to be the carrot. it hasn't worked well enough, so the stick on nursing homes, the stick on governors, i think we're going to see more of it. i don't think it's going to go away because you saw ron desantis on hannity last night within a couple of hours attacking biden for what he said and claiming that biden wants to put masks on kindergartners and making these ridiculous claims. there's going to be more of this and the only way to win this fight is going to be in some cases to beat people into common sense and beat them into submission on things that are just common sense, good science, the only way to keep our kids and ourselves safe and healthy. >> you know, donna, the white house has always talked about not being able to do this from a sort of political bully pulpit alone and i want to share this story about a doctor in alabama. an alabama doctor who watched

patients reject the vaccine is now refusing to treat them. it's reporting in the "washington post" that says in alabama where the nation's lowest vaccination rate has helped push the state closer to a record number of hospitalizations, a physician has sent a clear message to his patients. don't come in for medical treatment if you were unvaccinated. the message says dr. valentine will no longer see patients that are not vaccinated against covid-19. if they ask why, i tell them covid is a miserable way to die and i can't watch them die like that, wrote valentine. chain reaction, maybe, a doctor who just simply can't bear to see any of his patients that he's cared for die the horrific and heinous solitary death that people are dying now in huge numbers again, saying no vaccine, i will not treat you. >> well, i think this goes along with what we saw in stories that were reported even last week,

where people who are vaccinated are increasingly angry at people who are unvaccinated, because there's no excuse for it. the vaccine is widely available, it's highly effective, and i think there's a growing intolerance for those people who decided, they've made a choice not to be vaccinated. so i think this doctor is following that same trend. i mean, you see in places of employment employers are imposing mandates on their workers to be vaccinated or to face, you know, very rigorous testing, and the employees who are vaccinated are no longer tolerant of the reckless behavior of the unvaccinated. when they're unvaccinated, all the rest of us suffer the consequences of that because of the greater restrictions on our

lives when we've done what we need to do. and i think that -- who knows whether we'll see a trend in that, but i do think that there is a growing impatience with the unvaccinated. >> yeah, i mean, vaccinated americans kind of went from feeling, well, i'm protected, to now feeling scared again, to i think what you're articulating, feeling angry at the unvaccinated. john and donna are sticking around. we're going to switch gears after the break. the political fallout from president biden's conduct of the troop withdrawal from afghanistan may very well be tempered by signs in the public opinion polls that most persons are behind the decision to leave that country after two decades of war. we'll bring you that reporting next.

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signs today that the urgent mission of rescuing tens of thousands of americans and afghan allies from taliban-controlled afghanistan is gaining momentum. the pentagon says that more than 5,200 u.s. troops are on the ground, bolstered by armed aircraft patrolling the airspace. at least 7,000 of them have been evacuated, 2,000 in the last day. the rescue mission is unfolding amid a sharp divide in the political conversation in the u.s., and the recriminations from republicans who were far more muted when trump announced the very same goal has been withering. president biden's resolve to

weather the criticism for the events of the last week is bolstered by an overwhelming number of americans disillusioned by the entire 20-year effort. ap is reporting today that 62% of all americans, including 57% of republicans, believe the war in afghanistan was not worth it. the president today telling abc news that the chaos that unfolded after the collapse of the afghan government would have played out no matter what. >> there's no good time to leave afghanistan. 15 years ago would have been a problem, 15 years from now. the basic choice is, am i going to send your sons and your daughters to war in afghanistan, in afghanistan in perpetuity? if we had gotten out a long time ago, getting out would be messy no matter when it occurred. >> john heilemann and donna edwards are back. the answer to that question for most americans, am i going to

send your son or your daughter to war in afghanistan forever, is no. >> yeah, i think that's exactly right. i think the president in his policy has captured the views of the american people. i think about afghanistan as not one war. it started out as one thing, one mission, and that was to go after those who attacked us on 9/11, and then it became a different war and has become a different war over the ensuing couple of decades. and i think what the president was reflecting is that americans are no longer willing to fight an endless war. and he did what other presidents tried to do, but were unable to do, and, yes, it has been messy, and, yes, i am deeply troubled about what is happening with afghan women, some of whom i worked with as ngo leaders, as

parliamentarians, but that is a role for diplomacy and humanitarian effort, and not a role for our service men and women who have sacrificed more than enough. >> i mentioned at the top, there is an incredible fork in the road between a conversation among the national security establishment, journalists, policymakers and the conversation president biden is having with the broader universe of the american people. and they have successfully kept the conversation about the decision to leave and not so much about the logistics of doing so, which, as donna said, have been disturbing to everybody and anybody, the world over. but on this core question, which is where they want to keep the debate about whether to stay or go, the president is on extremely solid ground. >> well, yeah. i mean, and i think that the

challenge that they face politically has been what you just suggested that -- i think it's too early to know whether they've been successful yet at this or not. but if joe biden can keep having the discussion be a discussion framed around, was it right to leave afghanistan or was it a mistake to leave afghanistan, he's going to win that argument. the politics of this are not going to be problematic for him in the long run, and he's going to be fine because that's an issue about which we already knew there was broad bipartisan support for leaving afghanistan, for ending the war. that was true -- that was one of the reasons why donald trump and joe biden agree about this, that it was time to go. if they can have the debate beyond those terms, this will be fine for joe biden. and i just -- i think the question is, over the course of the last week or so, i would say that's not been the terms, at least the media and the national security establishment, as you say, nicolle, the intelligence community, the national security establishment, elected

officials, not just elected republicans, but elected democrats, many of whom you've had on your air and we've seen on television who have had a different conversation that have said, yes, we agree that leaving afghanistan was right, and, yes, we agree this was the time to leave afghanistan, but that this was a botched withdrawal and that there was unnecessary humanitarian and potentially security implications to the fact that this was not handled as well as it could be handled. now, some people will say that that is all, you know, fine, but ultimately it's irrelevant compared to the larger question, was it right to leave or not. but there's no doubt over the last week with the images we've seen on television, that discussion has been the dominant discussion in the media and what you're seeing joe biden do, i thought it was a little brittle with joe, i think that was the word joe scarborough used, it was a little brittle with george stephanopoulos yesterday, but he's trying to keep the focus on

the terms he wants to have it on, and if he can keep it on those terms, he will win. >> thank you so much for spending time with us. i'm sorry for my ringing phone. it will never happen again. up next, the democrat trying to make republicans pay a price politically speaking for january 6th. that's next. this is the sound of change from pnc bank. it's the sound of low cash mode, giving you the options and extra time needed to help you avoid an overdraft fee. low cash mode on virtual wallet from pnc bank.

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myself, this is how i'm going to die, defending this entrance. >> what i witnessed and experienced on january 6th, 2021 was unlike anything i had ever seen. >> another takes a different tack shouting, you will die on your knees. >> there was an attack carried out on january 6th, and a hitman sent them. >> watching the tv footage of those who entered the capitol, you would actually think it was a normal tourist visit. those are your words. >> and i stand by that exact statement as i said it. >> republicans continue to try to down play the horrific events of january 6th, even in the face of brutal testimony from the very officers who you just saw there who kept all of them safe that day. now one democrat is making that fact a cornerstone of her campaign. former congresswoman abbie finkenauer is challenging chuck grassley for his senate seat and running on his failure to stand up for democracy. joining us is former

congresswoman abbie finkenauer, now a democratic candidate for iowa's u.s. senate seat. thank you for spending time with us today. i'm going to play a little bit of your ad because i think it makes the point of what your candidacy is about. first, tell me how the republicans are aiding you in making your point, in making your case. >> well, you know, i'll tell you, i decided to run for u.s. senate because i waugh democracy and our country are worth fighting for. we saw even just last week senator grassley step up on to the u.s. senate floor and continue to defend trump's lies, and months before that pushed conspiracy theories about arizona. that's the type of stuff we cannot see happening in our country from u.s. senators. it is why we have to defeat these folks, and it is why we need everybody with us. please go to abbiefinkenauer.com and join us because we have got to win and we have to make sure

these folks are held accountable. >> let me play some of your ad, which i think is pretty vivid in terms of how and why this is so personal to you. >> it was just a bench, but to a 17-year-old congressional page it was literally my front-row seat to democracy in action, and on january 6th when i saw that bench standing between a violent mob and the u.s. house chamber i knew the world had changed, and it changed me. you see, it is politicians like senator grassley and mitch mcconnell, they think they own democracy, and they were silent when it was attacked. they've turned their backs on democracy and on us. >> you know, i watch that and i remember that mitch mcconnell's rationale for whipping votes against a bipartisan commission to investigate the january 6th

attack was wrapped up in hearing james carville or someone saying it was going to be a brutal campaign issue for republicans to stand with the insurrectionists. they've doubled down on that. not only did they kill the january 6th 9/11-style independent commission where democrats and republicans would have had equal subpoena power, there are now barely blushing when the ex-president meets with the mother of ashli babbit, when martyr dom is certainly signalled on behalf of the insurrectionists. some republicans go to the jail and visit them and describe them as political prisoners. the republicans have taken a hard right into crazy town on this issue. is your political bet scarier because of that fact? >> well, for me this isn't about politics. it is about holding people accountable who have just let go of our democracy. i mean we are talking about senator chuck grassley here, somebody who has been in

washington for nearly five decades, and when he had a chance to push back against the lies that led to that day, not only didn't he do that, he actually pushed the conspiracies himself. that's the type of stuff we cannot see happening and we've got to hold these folks accountable. it should not be happening this way in our country. i'm somebody who, as you saw in that video, i was a page when i was 17 and it was my first time ever actually on a plane, and i went to washington, d.c., had a front row seat to democrac and to that capitol building where i saw the value in public service and this idea that we could have a country where democrats and republicans could work together, could get things done, and that that was what we were founded on, was this idea that you could have different viewpoints but still get together and keep working for our country. and when, again, you have a sitting u.s. president pushing conspiracy theories that led to that day and then you have senator grassley and these

senators and these representatives who continued to push it, it is what is so concerning about what we're seeing from senator grassley, what we're seeing from these republicans, and they're not all doing it. we saw, you know, mitt romney, we saw liz cheney actually step up and tell the truth. that's all we're expecting. we're expecting the truth. we are expecting people to actually care about our democracy and defend it, and we didn't get that from senator grassley and it is why we have to beat him. >> former congresswoman abbie finkenauer, thank you for spending some time with us. we will keep an eye on your candidacy. come back and join us any time. coming up for us, the disgraced ex-president's niece mary trump will be our next guest when the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. s after a quick break. were delayed when the new kid totaled his truck. timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending...

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♪♪ i'm honored today to be at the foot of the bridge, the edmond pettis bridge right here in selma, alabama, to get into some good trouble and to ask all of you to get into some good trouble by contacting your senators and your representatives to make sure that they too vote for the john robert lewis voting rights advancement act. let us stand up for the rights of every american to have an equal right and equal access to the ballot box. it is not only right, it is just and it is fair and it is the american democratic way. >> hi again, everyone. it is 5:00 in the east. one week ahead of a vote in the house on federal voting rights legislation, alabama

congresswoman terry sewell is making the urgent case that the right to vote is under attack and only federal legislation can save it. sewell introduced the john lewis voting rights advancement act, hr-4, and on tuesday, and speaker pelosi said it will go before the house for a vote when lawmakers return from recess next week. hr-4 restores access of the voting rights act of 1965 that have been struck down by the u.s. supreme court including the provision that requires states with a history of discrimination to go through a pre-clearance review prior to making any changes to their election practices. now, without that oversight state legislatures are not limited in terms of what they can pass. now, fuelled by the big lie we are seeing a veritable wildfire of restrictive measures under consideration in legislatures across this country. already 18 states have enacted 30 laws this year that will make it harder for americans to vote. the antidote to all of those

measures, federal legislation, which congressman colin allred of texas emphasizes in a new op-ed. writing this, quote, today, we find ourselves at an inflection point once more. we are faced with a clear choice. the federal government can one against intervene to protect our democracy or we can enter a new era of democratic darkness. was we saw last month in the ruling we cannot depend on the courts for the right to vote. it will be legislation, that ensure our elections are free and fair. the need for action no clearer than in georgia, the state that's the target of the former president's lie as he continues to spread lies and delusions about the election result. on that infamous call with georgia's secretary of state, brad raffensperger, the former

guy mentioned fulton county more than a dozen times, making false allegations like this. >> but in -- in fulton, where they dumped ballots, you will find that you have many that aren't even signed and you have many that are forgeries. okay, you know that. you know that. you have no doubt about that. and you will find you will be at 11,779 within minutes because fulton county is totally corrupt. >> he was obsessed with fulton county. none of that was true. but now that county, which surprise, surprise, went heavily for now president joe biden, is facing an alarming and aggressive move by republicans to gain control over its elections. "new york times" reports this, quote, the georgia state election board on wednesday appointed a majority republican panel to review the performance of the fulton county board of elections, another step toward a

potential republican takeover of the election system in the biggest democratic county in the state. the three-person panel will include two republicans and one democrat. democrats across the state have denounced the push for a performance review there, noting that there was no evidence of widespread voter fraud last year and that the election results were affirmed by three recounts and audits. democrats view the request as a political stunt at best and at worst a partisan takeover in the most consequential county for the party in georgia. the gop's assault on our right to vote not slowing down is where we start this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. eddie glaude, chair of the department of african-american studies at princeton university is here, and lucky for us an msnbc contributor. joining us, my friend matt dowd, political strategist. and then nick corsetti is here from "the new york times." you wrote about this process,

this multi-step seemingly bureaucrat process for republicans to take over elections in fulton county. it is now underway. explain. >> so this dates back to the signing of sb-202, the big election overhaul bill in georgia that introduced a host of restrictions and notably had a lot of different elements that kind of alter the governance of elections in georgia. one of the things that was in there was it allowed the state elections board, which they also restructured in this bill, and the legislature which is controlled by republicans now has more control over that state elections board. what it allows them to do is basically create a review panel once it has been requested by legislators from that county of a county's elections board. so there were two republican senators and a couple republican house members from georgia who requested to the state elections board that they investigate and start a review panel of fulton county. that brings us to yesterday.

so once they sent that in, the state elections board is required by this new law to basically establish this panel, and they chose, unsurprisingly, a republican majority panel. now, they have an undetermined amount of time. this could take months, this could even bleed into next year, to, quote, unquote, investigate what went on and what has been -- you know, there have been some issues in fulton county. in the june primary there were long lines, but there hasn't been any issues with accuracy which is what a lot of did big lie and the republican proponents of the bill appointed to. they were affirmed multiple times by audits. what they can do is they will keep going through this process of reviewing it, and then once they're done they can recommend to even temporarily suspend this election board in fulton county and institute a superintendent. that superintendent would be picked by the state election board who, again, as we said earlier is -- the republican legislature has much more control over it. this is an extended process. it is going to take a while and

there's going to be a lot of small steps but we will want to pay attention to each step just the see how it is progressing. >> and i didn't play raffensperger's response, but raffensperger makes the points that you make, nick, that there were three audits/recounts in the state and there was no systematic or widespread fraud found, and those audits were credible and thorough and accepted by democrats and republicans in the state. so my question is what are they looking for? >> well, it is an open question. i mean they're apparently going to investigate everything from the actual credible issues that have come up in fulton county in the past, which is, you know, there's been problems with training for staff and machines have malfunctioned or been in locations where the electricity became an issue, all sorts of election-day snafus that can lead to a major line problem or long hour waits or anything like that we saw in the june primary. they also will be looking for, again, this nonexistent fraud we

hear so many times in so many different states that is continuing to kind of stay alive in the republican base because of what former president trump keeps saying. you know, his main argument has just been about the 2020 election. in theory, they will be looking for both of those, and since there was no fraud in the georgia election as was affirmed by multiple audits, you know, they won't necessarily find it. but as they go through this process, you know, it will be interesting to see how they come across reporting that. >> you know, matt dowd, nick's reporting animated a lot of our coverage and obviously the activism of stacey abrams and others on the ground informed it. there was an outcry when this law was passed. major league baseball, which was really reluctant to get into politics, moved the all-star game to another state. now that the law is going into effects, we see ominous it really is to go through and do a review in a state whose vote

count was audited three times exactly in the one spot that donald trump was obsessed with. he raised fulton county 14 times in that call with raffensperger in january of this year. why has the heat and the pressure and the attention moved off of what is happening in georgia? >> well, i think that's a great question, and specifically let's talk about brad raffensperger. he showed himself to be a person of integrity in the midst of that election, seemingly. i don't know him. seemingly a decent person that was going to stand up for the principles that we did push back on the republicans, but the republican pressure and the republican base pressure to put in place vote impediments and also vote nullification -- and we can talk about in a minute why they're doing that, why they're doing it has been relentless. in the end, brad raffensperger is not strong enough to stand up to that heat over a relentless amount of time, to keep pushing, pushing, pushing.

so i think he folded on this because from that pressure, even though i think originally he is a decent guy who has integrity, he folded. this is an organized national plan that the republicans are doing, and it is because -- and we've had this conversation before and, as i mentioned yesterday, the census bureau numbers pointed this out, why this is happening. it is because they know they can't win elections if the electorate looks like america. if the electorate reflects america in all of its ways, in all of its colors, in all of its ideologies and all of it -- whether it is republicans, democrats, black, white, independent, asian, women, men, if it looks like america republicans can't win. they want to figure out as best they can, and they're doing it, how to make the ballot box not look like america. >> matt, let me follow. i mean that explains the republican frenzy and focus on

making it harder to vote and trying to rig who counts the vote. the inverse is also true though. if democratic candidates can't have all of their voters able to vote and then if the votes come in, and in places like fulton county republican cronies are able to nullify their votes, democrats can't win, why isn't the focus and fervor matched on the democratic side? it is just as existential. >> you know, we've had this conversation, and this is where i am exceedingly disappointed in so many of the democrats in here, and i have to attribute it to the idea that they still think like everything is going to be fine and we'll get through this and we'll overcome the impediments and we'll do that, and in the end we may. there may be such average voters -- not elected officials but average voters who are so upset about what is going on that they come out in droves. that could and i hope does happen. but i think democrats are stuck

on this belief, and there's a think sociologists call belief perseverance, where they stick on a belief no matter what the facts present themselves. you led into this piece with the congresswoman on the edmond pettis bridge, and i think to myself, those people fought for voters' rights. they got beaten. they got injured. they got killed. all we're asking is people to stand up -- you know, just do a few little things, like just get rid of the filibuster on voting rights. you don't have to get killed and you don't have to get beaten like every other person that has pushed for voter rights has been done in this country. just do the little things. but i think the democrats have an inability to come to fundamental terms that our democracy is in dire straits. i don't think they want to admit that because i think they're participating in it so they can't participate in a thing that they think is faltering, but our democracy is faltering. >> yeah. i mean, eddie glaude, this is

the difficult, painful truth, and that's why i think the texas democrats were so riveting. they became uncomfortable in the name of blocking the voter suppression bill in a state where i think nick has some great reporting on this. it is already extremely difficult to vote in texas. the republicans there will succeed ultimately in making it even more difficult, but they provided an incredible contrast to washington democrats, who no one is asking them to get uncomfortable. they're asking them to do something that republicans do in their push for federal judges on the bench. you know, we have put aside the filibuster as a country, both political parties. it is not a law. it is not in the constitution. it is a norm. where do you think the democrats are in their head space about doing something abnormal to protect the right to vote? >> i'm not sure, nicolle. i think there are two ways in which we could read this, right. you use the word existential. i think for republicans, given

the data that matt cited with regards to the changing demographics of the country, they view those demographics as an existential threat to the country that they think should be, that they believe america should be a white nation, so they're approaching the issue of voting and the ballot box as an existential question while many democrats are approaching it as a procedural or process question. that's the generous read. >> yes. >> the more cynical read is that the voting -- the for the people act actually empowers voters across the board and would jeopardize democrat's political position. it would insurgent candidacies even more likely because they could mobilize and actually get out the vote in very different -- more people can vote, which means that politicians, no matter where you are on the political spectrum, would have to defend themselves. they would have to defend their seats. so the cynical read is not about republicans and democrats, it is about politicians who are

interested and invested in keeping their seats. >> wow. >> and we have to understand that as one reason why some of these folk are hesitant, nicolle. that's the only reason i can jump -- that's the only conclusion i can come to because they're saying one thing out of their mouths and they're doing another thing in terms of their practice. >> well, eddie, let me follow up. there will be another vote in the house on the new john lewis voting rights act, and i guess your point is it will pass the house, but if the fact of -- the what-of federal legislation, maybe it will meet the same fate, is that your worry? >> yes, absolutely. so you can provide yourself political cover with the theater of passing this legislation in the house knowing there's not a filibuster carve-out in the senate, knowing it is going to die in the senate. we see civic violence happening not only in our day-to-day lives

as republicans attack the voting rights of millions of americans, young, black, poor and the like, and then we see the civic negligence on the part of politicians who refuse in some ways to protect american democracy, and it is not just a republican issue now. it is all of them, nicolle. >> it is amazing. nick, i want to come to you on something that you have written about. abc news has some new reporting on the arbiters of election, the referees i want to put up. analyzing the voting rights lab state level bill tracker and bill description, abc news identified at least eight states including battlegrounds arizona and georgia that have enacted ten laws so far this year that change election laws by bolstering partisan entity's power over the process or shifting election-related responsibilities from secretaries of state. we have seen some states go ahead and do this on their own. arizona disempowered kitty hobbs, their secretary of state, from representing them. the georgia law goes very far in

doing this. can you talk about how these other states are doing this, this sort of attempt at potential voter nullification by changing the arbiters and referees of state elections? >> yes, and, you know, every state is different but every state is coming up with almost a unique way to find ways to alter who governs the administration of elections. a state like kansas made it so the governor can't change any election rules right now. that was also true in montana. now, montana had a democratic governor in 2020. kansas still has a democratic governor, and they made some changes to allow more vote-by-mail and things like that. so they tried to remove the governors from the process who are elected statewide and the republican legislatures, you know, now have the ability -- or always had the ability but now exclusively have the ability to alter election laws before an election. in georgia, you know, as we talked about earlier, they can take over county boards. we have already been seeing some local county boards in rural counties be restructured. we saw some mostly democrat,

some women of color just be removed from county election boards in more rural areas of georgia. those are the kind of officials that, you know, set the polling locations. they set the hours, the early voting hours. they really handle the day-to-day elections. so when you kind of take that over and find new ways to either set how elections are run or kind of operate, that, too, can have an impact eventually in who controls how the elections are kind of administered. then some extreme examples like in arkansas where there's now a provision where there's like a state-appointed board and they can investigate and possibly change almost any aspect of the voting process, whether it is registration, whether it is hours, whether it is the counting of ballots and whether it is certification. so there's kind of been this broad, different, multi-faceted approach to take over how these elections are run, put them in

more hands of partisan legislatures. we saw this back in march, and it is just kind of continuing to happen. even in the texas bill that eventually was killed in may by the first time the democrats broke quorum, that had a provision that specifically said overturning elections, and it basically lowered the threshold of the amount of fraud and what the fraud had to be linked to that could potentially overturn an election. >> yeah. you didn't have to prove fraud. i mean what could go wrong with this bucket of measures? it is amazing. >> you know, nicolle. >> go ahead. >> i'm going to say part of the problem or part of the concern is this is not an african-american issue. this is an american issue. african-americans have been historically disenfranchised. justifiably they're angry and upset because this has been going on for 240 years or longer on all of this process in this, but people ought to understand, it doesn't only affect african-american voters and what they have to go through and the

impediments that are put up. it affects asian-americans. it affects latinos in arizona, texas and new mexico. it affects women. it affects women's health choices because if this is allowed to take place there's a certain ideology it serves. it affects the idea of gun reform, of our public health system. it affects all of those things. it is not some select issue we only need to worry about african-american voices in this, who we obviously ought to pay attention to as i said because of the historical disenfranchisement. this affects all americans. this is an american issue. >> we'll stay on it with all of your help. eddie glaude, matt dowd, nick corsetti. america is shell shocked after four years of lie and the all-out assault on democracy.

today, dealing with a bomb threat outside the capitol. when we come back mary trump joins us to talk about how the country can start to deal with our collective ptsd. i'm so excited about this conversation. it is overdue. plus, how the former guy is hoping to use a second big lie to pave the way for his comeback. yikes! in a new move by the top prosecutor in manhattan proven a trump pardon will not be treated as a get-out-of-jail-free card. that's interesting. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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today a bomb threat on

capitol hill forced evacuations of government buildings and street closures. the suspect is now in capitol police custody and police say a search of his truck turned up no viable explosive device. still though, it is another grim picture illustrative of our trauma as a nation and of that neighborhood. along with pictures of the pandemic, adults and children in masks, unvaccinated patients saying their last goodbyes to families through ipads, pictures of desperate afghans clinging on to u.s. military planes. when trauma like these ones go unaddressed, unhealed, it builds up. in her new book "the reckoning" our next guest, mary trump, identifies the unresolved traumas throughout our nation's history as well as her own ptsd. she says all of it has been exacerbated by four years of having her uncle as country. she writes, donald is a disease that has existed in the body politic from this country's

inception which has because of our failures to root it out, let alone acknowledge it, mess takes take sized. from increasing levels of rage and hatred on the one side to increasing levels of high schoollessness, stress and despair on the other, we are heading toward an even darker period in our nation's history. joining us now is mary trump, former president donald trump's niece, author of the new book "the reckoning, our nation's trauma and finding a way to heal." mary, you have pulled all of this together, how i felt covering this president, how i feel watching people in our country who are unvaccinated, moms and dads dying and saying, "i wish i had been vaccinated," the visceral pain of seeing our allies in afghanistan. i mean talk about how you came to sort of put this out there. >> well, first of all, nicolle, it is great to be here. i really appreciate your having me on. originally i thought about writing a book back in september, october when things were looking really grim. we were in our second wave of covid. the election was coming up.

there was all sorts of economic and political uncertainty, and i wanted to write about what would happen when we finally emerged from the covid crisis, whenever that would be, believing it would be the worst mental health crisis we had ever faced as a nation. and then i realized what would be perhaps more useful would be to figure out how we got to a place in our history where we were so vulnerable to corrupt, incompetent and cruel leaders like donald, and i went back and i realized that two of the major issues we've faced as a country and continue to face is, one, our failure to hold powerful white men accountable starting with robert e. lee and, two, the fact that white supremacy has never really been acknowledged let alone atoned for. it is essentially a major platform in one of our two major political parties. >> and then i wondered about donald trump as someone who

retraumatized and reopened, and by elevating, hey, proud boys, stand back and stand by, viewing majority african-american countries as bleep-hole nations, describing good people on both sides of the kkk rally, i mean how did all of his comments in real-time, in public retraumatize those wounds? >> i think the damage is incal incalculable and we will be dealing with the fall-out of that for a long time, in part because it is ongoing. we are still in the grips of covid and donald is continuing to be enabled by a party that feels like they need to keep him relevant in order to cling to power no matter how illegitimately they get it. so, yes, we definitely have been retraumatized, and donald gave people permission to be their worst selves. you know, we have always had problems with racism in this country, but he took it to a

different level. he was open about it and worse, he got rewarded for it. >> i have so many questions for you about donald trump as the abuser, about the country as the abused and all of us as the traumatized, but what you write about covid is so profound and so universal. i want to read some from the book. you write, trauma can be compounded when multiple traumatizing events occur in the same time frame. you would think, for example, that a nurse in a covid ward would only have to deal with the trauma of being a nurse in a covid ward, but her trauma is compounded by the fact that thes on tensible leader of the free world is accusing front-line medical workers of stealing personal protective equipment and blaming them for the ppe shortage. i read this and thought of the capitol police officers, officers who were assaulted and

tased by the donald trump supporters, and then after they testify about the horrors after losing several of their colleagues to death by suicide, they're mocked on fox news and attacked by right wing political figures. just talk about this phenomenon of trauma on top of trauma. >> yeah, it is something that, again, we are going to be dealing with for a long time because it keeps happening. as i where, it is impossible to heal from your trauma while you are being actively traumatized, right. and it is made much more difficult to recover from trauma to the extent one can if, one, we don't face the truths of about what traumatized us in the first place, two, we don't have support or, as you say, are mocked because of our trauma. it is quite something to see the cravenness and the cruelty with

which the right is willing to sacrifice people to their agenda and, again, we need to be really blunt and clear about what is going on or we are going to stay trapped in this cycle for the foreseeable future. >> and president joe biden seems -- your book makes his mission of healing seem not just important and fitting but urgent. >> it is urgent, and thank you for pointing that out. you know, we have so many things going on right now. we are in the midst of at least three very serious crises, the covid crisis, the continuing economic fall-out, the crisis of our democracy, our democracy is on the brink still. you know, we cannot look away, and people are exhausted, rightfully so. but, again, if we let our guard down, if we don't stop to

examine how we got here and why as a nation we are so damaged and so vulnerable, then, again, i'm afraid we will continue to be susceptible to autocrats like donald and fascist political parties like the republicans. >> it is an endless thread to pull. lucky for us you are going to stick around and pull it a little longer and a little harder with us. when we come back, how the disgraced ex-president is hoping to return to power by telling a second big lie. mary trump when we come back. le mary trump when we come back le s struggle to get reliable transportation to their medical appointments. that's why i started medhaul. citi launched the impact fund to invest in both women and entrepreneurs of color like me, so i can realize my vision and give everything i've got to my company, and my community. i got you. for the love of people.

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we have lived through and endured the past and present dangers of the trump presidency, but now the ex-president's niece, mary trump, is warning us of future dangers and what she calls the second big lie, that the january 6th insurrection was just a legitimate protest. that's what they say. it is the crucial ingredients, she writes, of convincing america to reelect him. she writes in "the republic" if enough people buy into the second big lie, if enough of the voter-suppression laws pass and if republicans make significant gains in congress and state legislatures in '22, donald might think a win in 2024 would be a sure thing for him and he might make the decision to run after all, and if he were to win there would be no coming back from that." mary trump is our guest.

mary, this is the nightmare scenario, and we've covered the voter suppression laws. they've been crafted as though they put a lens on november 2020 and tried to figure out how donald trump could have been successful in his efforts to overturn it, and they've done everything they could to have made that possible. why isn't there a more focused bipartisan effort to protect the democracy from anyone like him? >> i think bipartisanship with the republican party as it is currently constituted is impossible, and democrats need to wake up to that very sobering fact. you cannot work with a party that essentially is anti-democratic and counter majoritarian. so democrats and all of us need to be very clear-eyed about the dangers we are facing. you know, republicans have had several opportunities to take an

off ramp away from donald and they never have. from 2016 on down there have been dozens of times they could have just been done with him, but, instead, they keep enabling him because they still think he can be of use to them. i think when the election was finally called for president biden, the first danger sign was the fact that most republicans were refusing either to declare biden the winner as well or were backing donald's first big lie about the election, and now we see them doing exactly the same thing with the insurrection which, in fact, is even more dangerous. >> how does the country heal from a trauma like january 6th with whatever, 30%, 40% of the country saying it wasn't a trauma, it wasn't an insurrection at all? >> i think the most important thing that needs to happen is there needs to be accountability. the fact that there hasn't been

yet is quite troubling. the fact that we have people who actively tried to overturn a free and fair election currently serving in our congress is deeply troubling. the fact that the a.g. merrick garland doesn't seem to be investigating what happened that led up to january 6th is also very troubling. so without accountability, again, as we've seen time and time again throughout our history, we continue to make the same mistakes. things continue to get worse, and i hope that that will change. >> you know, mary, something you shed light on i think and enhanced our understanding of is that donald trump never saw himself as owing the country anything. he didn't view it as his job to protect us from covid. he didn't view it as his job to stand on the side of the rule of law. he didn't view it as his job to lead the military, to do anything noble, simply to work for him. constantly talked to people like

john kelly and jim mattis about my generals. can you explain the addiction of someone that is that abusive of our country, of the office of the presidency? >> i think it is really important to remember that it isn't that people who like donald or follow donald see something in him to admire that the rest of us just are blind to. it is that they admire things in him that we revile. they admire his willingness to lie so brazenly. they admire the fact that he's entirely out for himself, and they actually admire the fact that he's an incredibly weak person who has never legitimately won anything in his life but keeps succeeding. so, you know, when we look at it that way it does become a little bit more understanding, if not less scary. >> you where about something that i think some journalists have inched toward but you have clarity about his own sickness from covid. is it your sense that he was far

more gravely ill than he ever let on? >> oh, absolutely. just given the list of treatments he was receiving but also given what i saw the day he returned to the white house, this would have been days after getting the best medical care on the planet and he was still struggling to breathe in a way that was painful. i have asthma, i know what that looks like. so, one, he was definitely much more ill than he let on, but, two, the fact that he was that ill and still recovered made the situation vis-a-vis his covid response even worse, unfortunately. >> do you ever hear from him or don jr. or ivanka or any of his kids? >> no. no, and i -- i think it is safe to say that i never will, but that's okay. >> that's probably a good thing.

i am an admirer of your writings and your using your voice to speak out and it is a pleasure and a privilege. the country will likely be traumatized for a while, so i would love to pick this conversation up. everything you write about is something most people are living in their real lives, so hopefully it is to be continued. mary's new book "the reckoning, our nation's trauma and finding a way to heal." mary trump, thank you for spending time with us today. >> thank you, nicolle. when we come back, the latest move by the manhattan d.a. cy vance dispels any notion that a trump pardon would be treated at a get-out-of-jail-free card. we'll explain next.

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timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending... for almost everyone. it has been a while now but you might remember when the twice-impeached ex-president left office he pardoned and granted clemency to several of his most prominent supporters and allies. among them household names like steve bannon, paul manafort, roger stone, even his son-in-law's dad, charles kushner. another kushner ally granted a pardon is a guy named ken curson. and he was just charged in manhattan state court for spying on his former wife by gaining access to her computer as their marriage deteriorated in 2015 and it could present sizable jail time if convicted.

the catch, of course, is the presidential pardon he got from trump is not going to work at all, not going to do him at all. these new charges are brought by the man investigating the ex-president, manhattan da cy vance. he says in a statement, we will not accept presidential pardons as get-out-of-jail-free cards for the well-connected in new york. let's bring back correspondent tom winter and donny deutsch host of the "on brand with donny deutsch" podcast. thank you for coming back. tell me about this investigation. >> sure. this investigation gives us a couple of different avenues to talk about. basically as far as the charges, just start with the basics of this. curson is allege to have installed a key-stroke logger on his wife's computer. she is identified in court documents as individual one, but we've been told, in fact, it is

his ex-wife. they divorced in 2016. in 2015 he installed this software. what it does, nicolle, any time you hit a button on the keyboard it records that. if you are trying to find out somebody's password, if you are trying to determine a message somebody may have written to somebody else, it would have recorded all of that electronically and he would have been able to get a copy of it. what that constitutes from a violation of state law is that essentially they said he ran an illegal wire tap, all part of a cyberstalking-type pattern of behavior. so that's the charge here and that's what it is focused on. the charges at the federal level when he was first indicted -- i shouldn't say indicted but charged by complaint in the fall of 2020 was related to similar type of behavior, although the underlying conduct was different. he was in the process, according to court documents, of a plea negotiation at the time that he was, in fact, pardoned as you have said.

so on the state level, obviously the president's pardon power does not go to state crimes so this case will continue forward. what i think it tells us or what insights it gives us is, number one, what cy vance did here. this is not somebody whose charges were adjudicated as is with paul manafort where he pleaded guilty and then cy vance's office charged. number two, there's the underlying conduct is different. a lot of the things he charged on paul manafort, the conduct was the same as the federal case, but the big issue there and the reason why that case was tossed, vance's case against manafort was tossed is because manafort had already gone through the judicial process and the judges in new york state said that's a violation of our double jeopardy laws. in this instance it appears unlikely that that will be an issue. it is something that other people that have received pardons that have a nexus to new york state crimes may be wanting to pay attention to.

one of those people could be potentially steve bannon, nicolle. >> i mean, donny, there's so much to unpack but i don't want to skip over heinous conduct of someone spying on a soon-to-be ex-wife. it is in the category . . . trump also pardons. at one point he went to jail because he tried to set up his brother with a prostitute. this is something, these were brothers and they were fighting and he wanted to get his brother and he tried to set them up. these are the people that jared kushner surrounds himself with. it is interesting when you take

off the steve bannon and the tom barracks and roger stone. a bunch of sleaze balls and just the way these people operated with immunity. if i am bannon right now, i am very nervous. i think this comes back, michael cohen said to me he believed kushner has flipped. one more domino to get to kushner, why is this happening right now? i still think this will come back to person of interest number one and all this is just precursor and dressing for r the main course. >> do you think cy vance is sending a message? >> absolutely. he's closing in. everyone you have telling the same story and it is circular and you enclose those circles in and you see it happening in

realtime. >> tom winter and tony, thank you so much for getting on the record with this development. we'll be back after a short break. don't go anywhere. r a short break. don't go anywhere.

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"the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> i would like to ask you something because you are in on our upcoming show right now. do you have a moment. >> it is all quite a big deal what everyone is going through this week looking at afghanistan and it is as complex dilemma. what we have planned tonight where you make a clear point of where the public stands and i was watching you when president biden making the first address this week. we have this teed up. let's play it for nicole here and this is what you said. >> 95% of american people will agree with everything he said. 95% of the press covering the white house will disagree. for an american president to be aligned of the majority of what the american people think about afghanistan is probably a tremendous relief to the american people. >> i thought it was really ri