thank you for joining us. this hour the fight over abortion rights. the new texas bill firing up the effort to protect abortion rights like no single act in years. but the question now for those who want to fight, what is the battle plan? in a moment i will talk to wentdy davis who spent 11 hours fill bust ring a previous effort to end abortion in the state. what she is doing. and republicans out to prove that you get the leaders that you deserve. we will look at the gop's frontrunner to replace gavin newsom in the california recall. a man who has argued against

vaccines for young people, faced sexual harassment and domestic violence allegations, and once made the case for slave owners being the ones who should get reparations. more on larry elder, the man who could save newsom. plus an amazing interview with sidney powell. she has been assailed over her lawsuit, but not sure she as ever been asked this before. >> do you hear yourself and think it sounds ridiculous? >> no. i know myself very well. i have been in me a long time. >> i have been in me a long time. that's one the virtual moments about a documentary about right-wing media and the big election lie. more on that as well. we begin with the fight over abortion rights. texas republicans enacted one of

the strictest laws after years of push back from democrats. in the summer of 2013, then-state senator wendy davis filibustered for 11 hours to stall the vote on a bill to ban abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy. despite delaying the vote the bill passed and way signed by rick perry weeks later. former stekz state senator and founder of deed not words is joining me now. thanks for joining us on this. we appreciate it. are there any options left for democrats in texas with this law? >> well, absolutely. we are going to fight this, of course, as hard as we possibly can on several different fronts. you probably saw that on friday planned parenthood was successful in a texas state court getting a ruling that protects planned parenthood's clinics from suits by a particular right to life organization and any of its i fill yits which likely includes all of the people that have reported on to its snitch line.

unfortunately, that only protects planned parenthood and only protects them against those particular complainants. so we have a lot of work to do. and there are really two fronts that we're focusing our efforts on right now. one of those is to make sure that women can leave texas if they are post-six weeks if their pregnancies and desire abortion care elsewhere. we have a number of abortion funds. i'll put something up in my twitter feed that gives you a donation link to that. and then my organization that i founded, deeds not words, we have started a legal defense fund because i want to make it really clear. none of these clinics believe that this law is constitutional. and they would like the benefit of being able to challenge it and create a rightness question before the court. but at this point in time they don't want to put any of their clinicians or other health care workers or front line workers in their clinics at personal risk of liability because right now

individually they could be sued for $10,000 plus the attorneys fees of the complainant. so we have created a legal defense fund. every dollar of that will go towards helping fetche defend these front line workers and help push this question in a rightness way before the court system both at the federal and state level. >> okay. so it's interesting you bring this up because i actually had a spokesperson from planned parenthood on yesterday and i posed this question to her in that if they were to continue with abortion services beyond six weeks in the state of texas there could be a moment in which they would subsequently be sued which would elevate it to the supreme court to challenge the constitutionality of this law. would your legal defense fund then support that effort? and is there any effort to get folks to actually do this so it can be challenged? >> that's the thinking. so i do want to make sure and

acknowledge the fact that there are law firms outside the state of texas and within the state of texas who are pro bono, volunteering their time to defend against this law. the problem, of course, is that for the people who work in this clinic, in these clinics, they are personally liable for the fines and they are also personally liable for the cost of the complainants' legal fees. that's what we are trying to make sure that we create a defense fund to protect against. and as you know, the supreme court dodged this question. they dodged it based -- basically on a ripeness argument, that this wasn't something that they could make a decision on yet because it hadn't actually happened yet. it hadn't been put into effect by a complainant filing a complaint against someone working in one of these clinics. so we certainly want to make sure that we have the resources to protect the people who may be

vulnerable even those who are following this law right now and who still may find themselves the subject of one of these suits. >> two things to cover before i let you go. first, as the subject of women. i know that you said that you are working on figuring out a way to get women out of state for abortions that in fact they need. how would that work? how would these women connect with you? what would that look like? >> so in 2013 following the law that i filibustered. we were called back to a special session. it went into law. in the intervening time while we were arguing it through the federal court system about half of our clinics in texas closed. and these abortion funds grew up around the need to help women travel. many women lived 120 miles or more from the closest texas abortion clinic, even though they lived in texas. and these abortion funds helped

them pay for the cost of the abortion care as well as the travel and the overnight stay costs that were required. now these same incredible groups, and there are many much them, that's why i am going to put a donation link up on my twitter feed, these organizations are helping women right now to leave the state for the care that they need. >> all right. you had corporations speaking out about voting rights in texas, but they have stayed silent on this. do they need to speak up? >> they absolutely do. and i have communicated about this in my social media feeds as well. you know, we have seen companies stepping up and doing the right thing when it comes for standing for our trans community and voting rights and for the idea and the premise and, of course, the precious right that black lives matter. but when it comes to abortion rights, even though for many of them, more than 350% of their

work force -- 50% of their work force are women and their primary consumers are women. even they like to talk about participating international women's day and things that make it appear as they support women across america, when it comes to a controversial issue like this, too many of them have stayed silent. and i'm very pleased with the ones who just showed some of them on your screen that have come forward very forcefully against this law. go daddy, which dropped the snitch site, you know, hosting that snitch site basically lyft, uber, saying that they will defend any of their drivers who may have driven a woman to an abortion clinic for an abortion, match and bumble both coming forward saying that they are going to contribute to the defense and to the ability for women to connect with these clinics where they need that help.

>> wendy davis, we appreciate you. thank you for joining us today very much. the supreme court played a part this week in allowing the texas abortion restrictions to stay a law with all three of the justices put up by former president trump decides not to block the bill. so what does this mean for the future of roe v. wade? amy howe to talk more about this. let's talk through some of this stuff. i want to read a part of justice sotomayor's dissenting opinion. and she wrote this. presented with an application to enjoy a flagrantly unconstitutional law engineered to prohibit women from exercising their constitutional right and evade judicial scrutiny, a majority of justices have opted to bury their heads in the sand. this is was an incredibly divided decision in the supreme court. >> it was. you know, you -- justice sotomayor is now, i think, since

the death of justice ruth bader ginsberg, clearly the court's most liberal justice. she really wrote the fiery -- the most fiery dissent from the court's order on wednesday. >> and if you notice, there were four dissenters, four separate dissenting opinions, and justices bryer and kagan joined all of them. but justice sotomayor and chief justis john roberts did not join each other. there were four dissenting justices but they were not united in their dissent. they clearly had different views on what was going on, even as they dissent, you know, agreed that the -- that the justices were not going in the right direction. >> there was a lot of back and forth, especially during the most recent appointments to the supreme court under former president trump about what they believed whether it came to roe v. wade. i want to play some sound where the justices stand on this.

>> one of the important things to keep in mind about roe v. wade is that it has been reaffirmed many times over the past 45 years. i understand the importance of the issue. >> roe v. wade decided in 1973. the president of the united states supreme court, it has been reaffirmed. the reliance interest considerations are important there. >> i can't express views on cases or precommit to approaching a case any particular way. >> there was a lot of gray there. right? but now we know where they stand when it comes to this texas law. can we now assume how they would vote if roe v. wade were challenged? or are we going to have to wait to see what happens with this mississippi case? >> i think we are going to have to wait and see. certain it was a signal. there was language in the court's order wednesday night about how they were serious

question about the law's constitutionality and you should read the court's order as a decision about the merits of the texas law. one thing i think you're talking about a case called dobbs vs. jackson, women's health organization, and that is a challenge to mississippi law that bance abortion after 15 weeks. and the court is going to hear oral arguments about -- in that case in december. so it's also a case in which the state has asked the supreme court to overrule roe v. wade, and the thing that's different compared to the supreme court, they have heard cases involving abortion in the last couple of years, is that the state came to the supreme court after a lower court had struck down the law and reached out and asked the supreme court to hear the case, and the justices freed to do so. when they heard a case out of louisiana in 2020 a case out of texas in 2016, and those cases the lower courts this upheld these laws restricting

abortions. so the supreme court, i think the justices felt like they had to step in. but now that the justice, you know, there are four justices, possibly five, who want to reach out and see whether or not there are five votes to overrule possibly roe v. wade. so the conventional wisdom is roe v. wade is very much in jeopardy. if they don't officially overrule roe v. wade in had mississippi case, there could be five votes to seriously undermine it, make it easier for states to pass restrictive abortion laws in the future. >> amy, thank you for that excellent explanation. really appreciate it. joining me to talk about what options congress has to protect abortion rights, democratic congresswoman debbie dingell of michigan. that's for joining us on this sunday. we appreciate it. is there any pathway forward, congresswoman, to codify roe v. wade? >> well, i think people have been talking about that for a long time.

certainly the speaker has made it clear that the house will vote on this when we return, come back the week of september 20th. i think it will be a narrow passage, but i think that the house will probably pass it. the problem is the united states senate. i think joe biden's made it clear that he would sign it, but as any -- the united states senate [ inaudible ] roadblock than it is to [ inaudible ]. >> we haven't heard from many republicans in congress about this texas law. they have been fairly silent, especially senator ted cruz, who we would have expect today hear from whether it came to this pretty strict texas abortion law. at the very least against a non-exemption whether it came to rape and incest, why is it, do you think? >> you know, first of all, this is extremely difficult issue.

i think it's one of the most -- one of the most difficult decisions a woman has to make and i think it's a very personal decision. it's between a woman, her faith, her doctor, and her partner, husband, et cetera. and we are setting that president donald trump for 50 years. it's very difficult. it's emotional. by the way, it's one more thing [ inaudible ] and i think that lot of the public has been taken a lot of positions have a lot of -- angry and they know that this one actually is one that is going to affect many, many women. >> do you think the men in congress understand the way you put this, this is a very difficult, emotional, personal decision? do you think they get that? >> i think some do. and i think some don't. we can't -- sometimes we try

take paintbrushes and paint everybody. for me it would -- i thankfully never had to make the decision. now i know how difficult it is. we [ inaudible ] but we have a separation of church and state. that's one of the most fundamental parts of our government as well. and i mean, people think this is easy. this is very hard for many people. and we need to remember all of that. it isn't my business to get into somebody else's religious beliefs. >> yeah. all right. congresswoman, i appreciate your passion on this and joining us on this sunday afternoon to talk more about this. thank you. coming up, everybody, i'm going to speak with journalist behind a new documentary called fox and bigly in which sidmy powell gets more than she barring end for. we'll be right back. e barring end for. we'll be right back.

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welcome back. today two republicans are now calling out house minority leader kevin mccarthy for urging telecom companies for not complying with subpoenas to turn over data about the january 6th

insurrection. this morning representative adam kinzinger criticized mccarthy but stopped short of calling it obstruction. >> obstruct, i don't know. but it's really bad politics, i think. >> politico's nicholas wu has been covering the january 6th investigation. joins us now dive into his reporting. thanks for joining us. mccarthy said the doj concluded that donald trump did not incite the january 6th mob nl now you have liz cheney, bennie thompson calling mccarthy out saying, i quote, this. it has been made clear that reports of such conclusion are baseless. we will pursue all elements of this investigation into a non part tin and thorough manner. we remind minority leader mccarthy of his statement from the house floor on january 13th which are inconsistent with his

recent comments. what is this telling us? >> what this is saying that it's really showing the january 6th committee putting a united front against what they see as these inaccurate statements from the minority leader. this was the first statement that cheney and bennie thompson put out together ever since cheney was elevate today be the vice-chair of the committee. and it's their attempt to say this is really a bipartisan effort that they still want to get to the truth of what happened that day regardless of what top republicans like mccarthy are saying. >> how is mccarthy fighting back? >> well, mccarthy, for his part, has taken a very aggressive stance towards the investigations by this committee. earlier the past week he attacked a friend -- companies that received document preservation requests from the select committee threatening retribution against them when republicans were in the majority

and said they could be breaking the law if they complied with the committee. it's unclear which law these companies would be breaking. lot of the these kind of preservations requests are fairly standard in federal investigations, although the request of lawmakers records is really is what has infuriated the republicans here. >> what is his driving motivation? what is mike car think's driving motivation here? is this a pr campaign ahead of midterm elections? >> that's part of it. a lot of republicans see this committee as an attempt to democrats to smear them and to muddy the waters ahead of the elections next year and to keep the investigations around former president trump alive. and for their part, i mean, this does show to a certain degree the extent to which the republican party is still in lock step with the former president. they are still trying to defend him. they are still as mccarthy said,

they are trying to absolve him of responsibility for january 6th despite what he and other republicans said in the days after that attack, that trump in fact bore some responsibility. >> thanks so much. good to see you. all right. since the 2020 election some of fox news's most familiar faces have fanned the flames of donald trump's big lie convincing viewers the election had been stolen and pinning the blame on two at the time largely unknown technology companies accusing them of conspiring to rig the election count. now smartmatic and dominion are fugue fox and three anchors as well as trump loyalist rudy giuliani and sidney powell for a combined total of $4.3 billion. my next guest sat down with powell who is standing by her unsubstantiated claims that the election was stolen despite the looming legal threats hanging over her head. >> do you ever hear yourself and think that it sounds ridiculous?

>> no, i know myself very well. i have been in me a long time. i know my reputation. i'm confused right now about why you're here. >> because you made a series of very strong allegations against smartmatic and against dominion containing many errors of fact. do you accept the fact now that the company that you accused of stealing a national election only operated in one county in l.a. in california? one county, one state? >> no, i am not prepared to accept that fact. >> you said smartmatic owns dominion. how to you justify such a basic factual error? >> i am going to stop this interview. it's wholly inappropriate in the litigation we are in. >> but we are not even in the area of great dispute. these are the simple facts -- >> no. >> of who owns what. >> no, we're done. >> joining me sarah ferguson, reporter and anchor. thanks for joining us on this.

it was an incredible peace. i got to say i put myself in your shoes for that moment and thought, wow, that's tough. that's uncomfortable. what was going threw your mind when sidney powell got up and walked away? >> you know, a few basic things at first. they are always really simple things, which we had flown from texas to washington, d.c., and we have a large audience in australia and word wide who wanted to hear from sidney powell she was such an extraordinary after that election, and there we were a few minutes into the interview and she was up grabbing her dr. pepper, her cushion and walking out. i thought i was in quite a lot of trouble. >> how did you convince her to come back? >> it was a combination of my asking her to stay, a very competent operation by our camera men, and also and crucially her lawyer was in the room, who was another member of that slightly ramshackle group of lawyers brought together in

the wake. election to challenge the results. and we had previously interviewed howard. he is one of the lawyers who has been criticized by the judge in minnesota for his role in sidney powell's role in bringing the lawsuits. he throughout it was a good idea for her to keep talking. we managed to get her back in the chair. but whether she resumed, she sat down with her little white dog, very important part of that day, sat down with her little white dog and said she was very skeptical that the interview was going to last a long time. >> let's play a little bit more of your interview. >> how many states were smartmatic machines and software used in the 2020 election? >> i don't know the exact numbers. >> what actual research or fact-checking did you do at the time to find out what smartmatic's actual involvement in the election was? >> do you work for smartmatic? >> it was essentially a bloodless coup where they took over the presidency of the united states without a single shot being fired.

>> who is they in that sentence? >> i don't know who all the they are. i would really like to know the answer to that. but it's a significant number of they, and they knew exactly what they were doing and they planned it for at least three years. >> it was shocking to me, i got to say, sarah, of how ill prepared sidney powell was first for your interview. and secondly, it was telling -- and i have been in this position before where she said, do you work for smartmatic? she would assume you are working for them because you were challenging her on what she was put outs there, she would go there. >> look, it's an easy first insult, if you like, to an interviewer to suggest that they are doing the bidding of somebody who holds an opposing view. it's a kind of cheap shot. i let that one go straight past to the keeper as we say in australia. i think the point you raised earlier was the thing that shocked me the most.

given that there had been a series of lawsuit, that particular group of people had mounted what they said was a serious election challenge, that she did not have a grasp of the basic facts or at least a challenge to the basic question about the ownership of smartmatic and dominion. without getting too detailed and putting your audience through top. one the things about the arguments in that period, which as we know was so fundamental to kind of understands how fragile american democracy is, how close things came to total disaster, that one of the things they needed to do was to link smartmatic and dominion, these two separate voting machine companies, one started in venezuela, one started in canada, and by creating an image of the two of them being connected they were able to sew this tapestry picture where hugo chavez and other socialist leaders in venezuela had got

involved in trying to rig the u.s. election. so by constantly repeating these allegations on fox news and on other more right-wing outlets during that period, they managed to put these two companies together as part of a conspiracy. so it was absolutely crucial for me as it was for american journalists in that period to put her through her paces on the basic facts. go back to bask, start at the beginning. like you, i was astonished she didn't have an answer to any of those straightforward questions. >> astonished. sarah ferguson, an incredible interview. thank you so much for sharing more of it with us. appreciate it. hundreds of thousands of people are still without power in louisiana and it could be that way for weeks. up next the latest on recovery efforts. plus, the man who could be the next governor of the state of california has democrats and some republicans really worried. when you hear some of what he believes, you will know why. that's coming up. f what he believes, you will know why. that's coming up bles someone else... i appreciate that liberty mutual

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welcome back everybody. the devastation hurricane identify a left is making life difficult for millions of americans across this country. in louisiana widespread damage to the power grid is causing outages and some residents may not get power back until the end of september. joining me is vaughn hilliard. thanks for hanging with us through the rain there. they could not use more rain. that is for darn sure. what do you see in the wake of recovery efforts? cleanup efforts as the situation there remains pretty horrific with some folks without electricity? >> right. you said it. there is no wind here right now either. it's sweltering heat, humidity. it was 95 trees earlier or just here in the last 20 minutes the rain starts to come down. in lafitte, essentially you have what a standing swamp. water and mud here.

we are standing on the one riot of passage, one roadway allowing folks to gain access to their properties. it's standing water and mud here at this point. their homes are devastated here and just trying to get further back and begin to have some sort of reckoning of what they could potentially be able to rebuild in the weeks and months ahead is so still so difficult because we are talking about power being out for up to four weeks. four to six weeks here. i want you to listen to one of the residents we talked to this afternoon. katie arias here talked about the unknown that is ahead. >> for years i've done this over and over again. this is the worst i have ever seen. >> reporter: your kids lived here, your grandkids? >> my children, my grandchildren all grew up here. my father brought this property when -- before i was born. >> reporter: you just heard this

is a shrimping community here. you heard her say she has been here all her life. folks are trying and beginning to get back to their communities. at the same time i will have derek, fouroto journalist pan pan back over. you see this is the entrance to a home. this is the welcome sign to left of the stairs. we were having the conversation here. it's not quite clear what home those stairs used to actually lead up to. that's the kind of devastation here that we're talking about in these residents when i talked to her husband there katie's husband chris i asked the question do you think you will stay here and he said no, we just don't know how we can rebuild in a community here when another storm could come and flood us again. >> we are starting to hear a lot of that. thank you. great to see you. so in my reporting this past week in new jersey and new york and watching the damage there in louisiana, it is devastating to see the real-world effects of climate change and lack of

infrastructure to protect against the extreme and long-term damage. lives have been lost. homes and belongings gone. cars flooded. electricity out and the sweltering heat, all off this happening across this country. and guess who are the people most affected in lower income communities. lower income household. it took an extreme weather and humanitarian event like katrina to address the levee system in new orleans. now leaving people without power for as you heard from vaughn four to six weeks. in new jersey i spoke to a hispanic family who had no idea where they would live. another man told me he wanted his house to be condemned since it has now flooded so many times that at least that would pay for his mortgage and he could figure out his family's next moves. another colombia i don't know family in new york getting their toddler and baby out in time, unsure without insurance what

they would do. a man saying how he swam in the floodwaters not to rescue a person but his tools because otherwise how would he work? how could he go to his job? what would he do? how would he make money? this is the reality of climate change. not only does the federal government need to invest in infrastructure to protect against these major weather events but as citizens of the world we need to do our part to reduce the severity of the storms. for every 1.8 degrees of fahrenheit, the atmosphere holds 7% more moisture. more intense rain. all of the downpours that we have been seeing. something needs to be done. our safety and our future is counting on it. we'll be right back. future is counting on it we'll be right back. >> tech: every customer has their own safelite story.

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i was scared. >> i cried out to jesus and asked him to d jesus, just help me get out of this. >> my first thought was, is that the building that my son works in? >> it was bleeding. the building was bleeding into the sky. >> in the air, you could feel the reality of it. ♪♪ >> okay. red light's on. i guess it's working. >> it put me into a different sort of consciousness about where i was in the world. >> what do i want future generations to know about this? there is nothing greater than love. >> memory box echoes of 9/11

premieres wednesday night 10:00 eastern on msnbc and exclusively on peacock. join msnbc next saturday as we mark the 20th anniversary of 9/11 at 5:00 a.m. at ground zero with reports from all of the memorial sites. then at noon brian williams, nicolle wallace, especially live coverage. we'll be right back. breaking the norms. she had a dream and decided to pursue it. find the strong women in your family with ancestry. growing up in a little red house, on the edge of a forest in norway, there were three things my family encouraged: kindness, honesty and hard work. over time, i've come to add a fourth: be curious. be curious about the world around us, and then go. go with an open heart, and you will find inspiration anew. viking. exploring the world in comfort.

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welcome back. perhaps the most consequence election since last yeararies special election is this california. should the california recall prove successful governor gavin newsom is going to face an unceremonious ouster from the same state that delivered him a victory in 2018 and while recent polling has shifted in the governor's favor, driven in large part by women voters, concerns linger his opponent could come out on top. the conservative firebrand a history of provocative sometimes. in 2017 he suggested in a tweet that women who participated in the wilts march were, quote, too unattractive to be sexually assaulted. on multiple occasions he has

also claimed that black americans, quote, exaggerate the issue of racism as if that weren't enough, by the way. elder made his political vision when he issued this threat to senator dianne feinstein. >> all of these people are scared to death about one big thing, mark. they couldn't care less about gavin newsom. they care about the 50-50 split in senate in washington, d.c. and god forbid governor elder should replace dianne feinstein who nobody has seen in weeks, and i'm told she has a worse mental condition than joe biden. they are afraid i'm going to replace her with a republican which i most certainly would do and that would be an earthquake in washington, d.c. >> with me now to discuss are the director of the public policy program at the roosevelt house and political consultant and "boston globe" contributor. basel, i'll start with you on this one. the absence of dianne feinstein would be enormous for the biden

administration. could this promise even from elder, could it rally conservatives in the state? >> well, i definitely think it can rally conservatives much in the same way that it would in other states or even supreme court picks and judicial picks rally conservatives, but, you know, electorally democrats do have an advantage here. they have about a -- almost a 2-1 advantage here and as you said in the lead-up, gaven is extraordinarily popular, and i think a lot of voters actually understand the difference between descriptive and substantive representation. you know, as an african-american man, there's only been two blacks elected -- elected to governorships in this country and that actually in our entire history and that happened within the last 30 year, so i -- i imagine that there's some sense of, you know, some conservatives saying look what we -- look what we can do, and it's not about black conservatism. it's not that at all. it's just that, you know, you don't want the -- him to be the

opening through which you have a lot of policies like what we've seen in texas and other parts of the country with pro-choice rights. we may see it in terms of voting rights. you don't want somebody like that in office. and start to chip away at a lot of the things that we hold dear, so i think californians are in a -- are in a place where they can resist that urge and -- and -- but i imagine that it -- it certainly will excite some conservatives. >> and i just want to be clear. his comments about dianne feinstein's mental state have no basis in fact so important to point that out. let's look at that polling here. recent polling showing governor newsom has a substantial lead with 58% of likely voters saying they do not support the recall, but if in fact this recall is successful, what could it mean for the state? >> i mean, look, i think larry elder clearly would be the number three african-american

man elected governor in the country regardless of what you think about his politics. i think that's a positive thing. i think it's also concerning that the fact that gavin newsom is quote, unquote a popular governor and you look at some of the reporting from nbc, look at hispanics, a lot of people didn't know a recall was going on and the black community is lukewarm to gaven newsom. looking at the state issues from homelessness, crime depending on what city you're specifically talking about and other issues and i think there is a legitimate case that larry elder could make, hey, there are some things that have gone wrong governance-wise that the governor hasn't been successful with. i should be given an opportunity. now to respond to what basel said -- >> you're saying making a case on a local level despite all of these egregious things that i laid out that he has been accused of, things that he has tweeted about, things that he has said publicly that puts him in the same space as some would say fringe politics to the likes

of marjorie taylor greene. >> i mean, look, i'm not saying that i condone or don't condone those things that people of california have to figure that out for themselves. what i am saying, however, there are dozens of other candidates that are republicans that are running and for some reason everyone seems to be -- everyone for republicans are going towards larry elder and that's for a reason and i don't think you can discount that regardless of some of his pronouncements that people may dislike or make people uncomfortable and there's a reason why he's surging in the polls and there's also a reason why the governor is in trouble here and we can't discount those things. now, if elder were to get elected, the issues such as voting rights or issues such as abortion, there's not a lot he can do with those things. the legislature in california is controlled by democrats, so the people in california don't necessarily have to worry about that, but, again, i think from some policy perspective, at least as a conservative, i think that there are some things that california clearly needs to work on and i think elder can make a

legitimate case that the governor hasn't been successful on those issues. >> so are you -- i -- i just got to be clear and make sure i'm understanding what you're saying here and then basel i'll let you weigh in. you're saying he has a clear case to be governor despite all the things that i have laid out as to what he has done and been accused of. am i hearing you correctly? are you willing -- >> i think -- i think that the people in california clearly are looking at layer elder as a viable candidate and by people i mean republican candidates, and, again, if you look at the way that this recall system works in california there is a possibility that he could become governor regardless of the things that you just laid out and that's not my opinion or anyone else's opinion. those are just the facts based on the recall law of california. >> basel, final word to you? >> yeah. you know, listen, i'll just say that the existential question for us all because to piggyback on something that he said there's fear and anger and

anxiety in this country over the handling of covid and that goes across party lines and it goes across gender, race and ethnicity. that is a big challenge for leader no matter where you are in this country. the question is can we fight the urge and the impulse to put someone in there that isn't actually able to lead us through this and is more of a provocateur as you -- as you said at the top of this than someone who is necessarily solutions-oriented. that is really existential question for us at this time. >> thank you to you both, guys. appreciate it. that wraps up the hour for me, everybody. i'll be back here next saturday and sunday at 3:00 p.m. eastern. our coverage continues after a break. eastern. our coverage continues after a break. need to worry. the pre-treaters are built in. tide pods dissolve even when the water is freezing. nice! if it's got to be clean, it's got to be tide. liberty mutual customizes car insurance

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