>> well, he -- he started crying and i said, what is going on? he said, well, you know, he was witnessing what was going on next door. i said, well, what are you doing? why don't you just get out of there? he said, no, i'm just here praying for the people next door. and then marty had called me and i said, well, marty is calling, let me let him know that you are okay and, you know, he said he just wanted to go home to his wife peggy and five kids. i said, well, let me let marty at least know you are okay and, you know, hung up the phone, told marty, and then a couple minutes later the second plane hit. >> as hard as it is to remember people in this kind of ceremony, families told me today they can't imagine being anywhere else but here on september 11th. yasmin. >> oh, rehema, it was so incredibly touching, that interview you did with both of those individuals. it brings tears to my eyes

knowing they spoke with their loved ones in those last moments or heard a message from their loved one in the last moment and what it must have felt like for him. unspeakable. rehema ellis, thank you as always. great to see you this afternoon. we are approaching the top of the hour. you are watching "msnbc reports" with yasmin vossoughian. welcome, everybody. i'm yasmin vossoughian. if you are still with us, thanks for sticking with us. if you are just joining us, welcome. as our coverage of the 20th anniversary of the september 11th terrorist attacks continues, we are beginning this hour with a special look at the personal experiences of muslim-americans from 9/11 to now. i want to play for you more of the discussion that i had this week with a diverse group of muslim-americans. they spoke to me about how they have seen islamophobia in their own lives and how they hope to see awareness shift, an inflection point now and in the future. let's listen.

my heart just dropped and the first thought that i had was, god, please don't make it muslims. i can't bear if this is done by people who call themselves muslim. >> just feeling like fear and, you know, in the pit of my stomach, one, for my family in new york but also what i felt were just there. >> with my parents living in texas, in a small town, a farming town, i was really worried about their safety in the immediate aftermath because of the post-9/11, you know, anti-immigrant backlash. >> whenever there is any type of attack, how many of you think to yourselves, geez, i really hope the person who was responsible for this is not muslim? show of hands. >> what is the logic of white supremacy that always casts someone as foreign, as other, as dangerous until proven safe or peaceful? why is it do you think that this community or that individual has to prove themselves after each

violent attack, after each sort of sensational headline? why is it that there's this litmus test? >> at 16 years old i was arrested. i was accused of being a potential suicide bomber. i spent 6 1/2 weeks in a juvenile detention center, i wore an ankle bracelet for two years, i was on a no-fly list, i was constantly interrogated by fbi about things and places i didn't even know about. >> having mothers going to the mosque, saying, my husband hasn't come home, my son hasn't come home, i don't know where they are. several hundred were actually being held at the brooklyn detention center where we protested for six months every saturday, demanding the names, demanding the charges and demanding the release of innocent people. >> we didn't pursue who was only guilty. we went after entire nations and all of the americans and non-americans who are muslim in this country and just threw

them, lumped them into one basket and vilified and demonized and attacked them all at once. >> who has experienced islamophobia since 9/11? >> at one point a guidance counsellor said to my face, we don't -- we don't want your kind here, you have to leave. i was there to ask whether i should be in a.p. chemistry. >> what did you say to that guidance counsellor? >> i was speechless because this woman had been kind to me earlier. >> what would you say to her now? >> i would say that you are wrong, you are wildly wrong and i would invite her to get educated, to get to know a few muslims before you come to these awful, awful conclusions. >> we are throwing a birthday party for my brother, and my father is in his 70s, was assaulted by his neighbor, punched in face and called -- you know, you look like you're from isis. >> when people looked apt me they looked at the hijab before they looked at anything. not believe your american enough, having people question that, really, your son is a national guardsman? and then to be a part of a family that has eight family

members who are in the military. >> these people have layers of barriers that they have to -- that they have to break through in order to even see us as humans. >> for two decades our community has been discriminated against in such a horrible way, but if you are thinking about, well, what has happened to communities since the founding of this country? well, then it is not so unbelievable. >> the only way to eradicate islamophobia is we have to start with eradicating racism in this nation. looking at the ugly history that our country has engaged in, owning up to it, and then working through all of the isms that exist within our country. >> to form a more perfect union is to work hard for the betterment of the best of what it is to be america and what america stands for, which are its values on equality and justice. we were all victims at 9/11, it didn't matter what your religion was, right. whether you were in new york or you were in america, you felt

like you were victimized. but for muslim-americans, they continue to be victimized 20 years later. >> they see the way we look, they see the way we dress, and they often want an apology. i'm a descendant of enslaved people. so when 9/11 happened it felt one iteration of the centuries of muslims in this country, but also the repercussions, the constant suspicion list surveillance, being profiled, being monitored. the way it has eroded the mental health, the emotional health, the psychological health of the community, and that's something we are still grappling with. >> it was such a profound conversation for me to have and i was lucky to have it on that day. i want to talk more about this now. joining me ahmed younis. and zainab salbi. welcome to both of you guys. thanks for joining me on this. really, you know, as we

commemorate 9/11 i think it was incredibly important to have this conversation about muslim-americans in this country and the islamophobia they've faced over the last 20 years. i want to start with you, ahmed, and get your personal experience as a muslim-american here and what you have experienced. >> well, i was a third-week law student in lexington, virginia, having just arrived from cuba and i looked up to people like zainab salbi, and seeing her cry -- we've been through a lot. despite that, we've shown extreme beauty. we've shown radical love in an attempt to bring together all of those who are incorrectly disposed in front of, taliban supremacy, isis supremacy, white supremacy, heteronormative supremacy. the muslims of america are much

stronger than they were on 9/11 despite our pain and trauma. >> zainab, obviously getting emotional watching this thing, and i will be completely transparent obviously with my audience. i am an iranian america, i was born to iran yam parents, to muslim parents, so obviously this subject matter is particularly of interest to me and something that is very personal to me. you are not often supposed to kind of broach this line, of course, as a journalist but i want to be transparent with the audience about it. something that really spoke to me, especially what camila said, and she talked about this litmus test for many muslim-americans in this country and how you have to prove you are kind of an up standing muslim in order to prove your legitimacy, right, your truth, that it is okay to be who you are. what stuck out to you in that conversation? >> well, yasmin, it is an emotional day for all of us. what stuck out to me as we all

face persecution as a result, and i'm an immigrant from iraq talking about personal narratives, and iraq is one of the countries that was invaded as a result of september 11 and was destroyed as a result of september 11. every family member i have has become a refugee. as one of 35 million refugees that has resulted as a result of september 11 in both afghanistan and iraq -- >> zainab. >> yes. >> i hate to step in here just for a moment. i want to let people know what we're watching. we are watching the wreath-laying ceremony at the pentagon. we just saw the president of the united states along with the first lady laying a wreath at the pentagon, third and final stop in commemoration of 9/11, an incredibly emotional day not only for the leaders of this country but for the entire nation as we memorialize so many

of the lives that were lost on that day. of course, this wreath-laying ceremony, as i said, attended by so many leaders there. let's take a listen. [ taps playing ]

>> you see the president there and the first lady at the wreath-laying ceremony at the pentagon along with the vice president and the second gentleman, making their third stop there today on 9/11 commemorating the lives lost on that tragic day 20 years ago in this country. it has been a day of reflection, a day of remembrance, and a day of celebration of so many of the lives that were lost, remembering the loved ones, the mothers, the fathers, the sisters, the brothers and the children, the people that were in the twin towers, that were on flight 93 that went down in shanksville and on the plane

that went into the pentagon. it has been a very emotional day, as we watch both the president and the vice president approaching the wall of names there and completing the 9/11 ceremony that we have been watching throughout the day. i'm sure having many emotions on this day as well. today also in attendance of this ceremony is lloyd austin, defense secretary, along with general mark milley, chairman of the joint chiefs. want to bring in dan de luce who is standing by along with monica alba. take us through some of what we are seeing, monika. >> reporter: the president and the first lady had a day at three memorial sites, all mark by a very somber, solemn and serious experience like the one you are seeing right now on your

television screen. it was critically important to the white house and to the bidens to want to make a physical representation at each of the stops. they woke up this morning, of course, in new york city. they headed to ground zero for that initial commemoration, where the president was standing side by side with two former presidents, a sight we don't see as often these days, the former presidents' club getting together, of course, to mark this incredibly important occasion. from there they went to shanksville, pennsylvania, where earlier in the day the vice president did make some remarks where we also saw former president bush speak, of course, but the bidens arrived a little bit later. they did lay a wreath there as well, and they also met with families of those on united flight 93, those heroes, of course, who overtook the hijackers. the president really defaulted to a role that he has now done many times, not just now that he is president but one in his

personal capacity, which is to be a consoler in chief. as somebody who has experienced so much loss and grief he says he always wants to be able to have those conversations face-to-face with people who have experienced similar sorrow. so we know that is what they did a little bit earlier in the day, something that wasn't on the schedule, the president stopped at a firehouse, a volunteer fire department in shanksville, pennsylvania. and even though the white house had said that really the images of the day were going to do most of the talking, the president actually took a couple of questions from reporters. he was reflective on what this entire day and experience meant to him, but he also took the time to praise former president bush's remarks. he said he thought it was an excellent speech, and though he didn't name him or call him out specifically, the current president also seemed to indicate that he rejected criticism from the former president, donald trump, who has been releasing statements all

day criticizing the current administration. the president, who has also been asked repeatedly, yasmin, about his poll numbers that have gone down on things like the chaotic afghanistan withdrawal, the coronavirus pandemic, he said, "i've been around long enough, i know how to deal with this, i'm not concerned with it." also, he defended again his decision to pull troops out of afghanistan. of course, that an incredibly important backdrop to everything that we are seeing today given over the last 20 years this is the first 9/11 without american troops on the ground and presence, of course, given the decision by this administration to get them all out. so all of that clearly weighing on the president. and, of course, he is thinking about his own family members and his late son beau who served in the military. you have to imagine that being at the pentagon, speaking with the defense secretary, acknowledging understanding what

so many military service members and their families have been through in terms of sacrifice and loss over the last 20 years, that's a big part of where his head is at today as well. so this is the final stop on everything in terms of commemorations, that they were very dedicated to being a part of today, yasmin. from here the president and first lady will return to their home in wilmington, delaware, where they will spend the rest of the weekend. you see here in these images the president speaking with the vice president. it is first time we have seen them together in the same place all day today. earlier, as we mentioned, the vice president was in shanksville but she didn't cross paths exactly with the president. they didn't overlap in their time there at the memorial. and then the president was in new york city earlier but the vice president was not. so they're also now, of course, comparing notes on what they've both been able to experience and reflect on today and, of course, the pentagon, we should remind everybody, in virginia not too far from here at the white house and the president himself on

9/11, 20 years ago, he was headed to washington, he was on an amtrak train from wilmington to the capitol, he was then a senator. it was then professor jill biden who called him to really deliver the news and give a play-by-play account of what she was seeing on tv. and as she recalls, she just kept saying, oh, my god, oh, my god, oh, my god, when she saw the second plane hit the second tower and relayed that to her husband who then did arrive in our nation's capital and, of course, then met with other lawmakers trying to figure out exactly what was going to happen next. he actually did an interview with an abc news journalist in the capitol. president bush at the time washed those remarks and later called then-senator biden to say thank you for your words. i thought they were important. so the two connected on that day 20 years ago, and it was notable, of course, because in this sort of full-circle sense

the current president praised former president bush for what he had to say today, of course, two decades later, yasmin. >> so as we're watching the president and the vice president there at this wreath-laying ceremony, i also want to talk to dan de luce. i'm not sure if you are watching the images we are, but if you could take us through walk the president and vice president took alongside the second gentleman and the first lady, the wreaths they were looking at, the names which they have been viewing, set the scene for us for folks who don't know necessarily what this memorial looks like. >> yes, it is a really beautiful memorial. it is on the west side of the pentagon where flight 77 struck the building that morning at 9:37 a.m. of course, people working in the pentagon at that moment were watching television, knew of the accounts of the planes hitting the twin towers in new york,

without them realizing they too were going to be hit very soon. it was an incredible psychological blow, the terrorist attack hitting the headquarters of the world's strongest military, and it hit where some navy offices were among others, and tremendous fire broke out. but that memorial has markers for each of the 184 victims and even acknowledges the ages of the victims and the height of those seats. so that's what they're looking at. there was a flag unfurled this morning at sunrise, an american flag, to honor, again, that moment and that tragedy. really, this was a very personal thing. many people who still work here remember that day. and, of course, immediately after that the military was on a war footing and arguably ever

since. the u.s. is still conducting strikes and taking -- conducting operations against terrorist groups even after this withdrawal from afghanistan. >> i wonder, dan, what the energy, the feeling at the pentagon has been leading up to this 20-year remembrance of 9/11, knowing their colleagues and friends were lost so many years ago? >> it is always difficulty think, but it is particularly painful this year. this is -- this was immediately days after a traumatic withdrawal from afghanistan and those chaotic scenes. there were 13 young service members killed trying to help afghans into the airport, and i think for a lot of veterans, for a lot of people in the military it is a time for reflection. i think it is extremely difficult, and they're looking back at these 20 years and they're wondering, you know, how much of it was a success, how

much of it was a failure, what may have gone wrong. on those same lines, i think it was interesting president bush's speech today in shanksville. he was really calling for reflection as well, and he was saying that the such needed to get back to its better self, to its better angels, and that he kept talking about the america immediately after 9/11 was a country that rejected prejudice, that was unified, that joined hands, that welcomed immigrants and refugees, and he kept saying that's the america i know. he said he hoped that america could get back to being that again. so a really interesting, fascinating speech by the president, former president bush. he also said that america not only faces danger from extremists abroad, but he said there was also evidence that we faced danger from violence within. he clearly made a link between extremists abroad and extremists inside the u.s., and that was a real warning from the former

president. >> yeah, i thought that was an unprecedented speech. i was talking about it with clint watts, dan, a little earlier. he said it was, quite honestly, the best speech he had heard on terrorism in quite sometime from the former president, being so pointed about where to lay blame when it comes to the rise of domestic terrorism in this country. i think for so long part of the conversation has been pointing the finger abroad, the threat abroad, and finally bringing it home and understanding and driving home that, no, there is a threat certainly within this country that still exists, that is on par or on level to what we saw on 9/11. >> arguably, it was sort of the headline of the day today, at least one of the big headlines. you can't imagine that speech being given 10 years ago or 15 years ago, right, it just wouldn't have been really something you would have heard a president talk about. >> yeah. >> so it shows you where we are. >> it certainly does. dan de luce, monica alba, i

appreciate you both jumping on for me during the wreath-laying ceremony at the pentagon. we just witnessed the president, the first lady, the vice president along with the second gentleman at the wreath-laying ceremony at the pentagon, the third and final top on this day of remembrance on 9/11 after so many thousands of lives were lost 20 years ago today. it has been a day of remembrance, a day of celebration of those lives, a day of paying tribute to so many people that put their lives on the line that day to save others. again, guys, appreciate you both. we're going to be returning to our conversation we were having at the top of the show about muslim-americans and what has transpired over the last 20 years when it came to and comes to islamophobia. i will bring back ahmed younis and zainab salbi. i want to apologize in advance. i had to cut them off, of course, because of the wreath-laying ceremony but we're going to continue that conversation because it is an important one. stick with me.

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welcome back, everybody. so i want to take a listen to another part of my conversation with muslim-americans who reflect on 9/11 while discussing our current political climate, bigotry in this country and how they would like to see us move forward. >> i am tired of proving that i am patriotic. i spent 16 years in the immigration system advocating to stay in this country. i think i have proven my loyalty. i think the fact during the entire pandemic i was out there while government officials hid

in their apartment, i think i have proven my loyalty, but we need to change the system. >> it has been institutionalized i have to be exceptional in order to prove to people, no, muslim-americans can be good. >> as a woman. >> yes. >> as a black woman. >> yes. >> as a muslim-american. >> yes. >> it is really funny, you are talking to a bunch of diverse muslims from a different nation, is that we believe in the american ideals. we believe in the freedoms that america espouses. >> this is why there's such an attack on history, an attack on critical race theory. there's dissonance between the i deals that the country was founded on and what people are continuing to perpetuate. >> we have to reckon with our path. last summer we had multiple reckonings catalyzed with the murders of george floyd and

breonna taylor. >> how do you change that. >> we need meaningful representation at state and national levels. >> it is not my job to teach you not to be race i was. it is your job to learn to be someone who sees us as equals >> all right. joining me once again, and my apologies for cutting you off earlier, ahmed younis and zainab salbi. thank you for sticking with me. i'm sorry about that, but i'm sure you both know that is live television on a day like today when you show the president and vice president at the pentagon. zainab, let's pick up, hearing from the panel once again, your reaction so far. >> here is the thing, yasmin. the vast majority of muslims are moderates and as far as loving, kind, viewers of islam and the way they practice islam, again, is in a kind,eth cat, beautiful way. we are as much of a target by the very same terrorists who

committed september 11 as non-muslims actually. so we were many muslims, the vast majority of muslims in usa were caught in the corner and the hard place. on the one hand the same terrorists were targeting moderate muslims around the world and killing and assassinating them. on the other hand all muslims in america were stereotyped and cornered into one identity which is that of being a terrorist. myself, including every muslim that i know, have faced one kind or the other of prejudice and racism and discriminations and fear and stereotypes and all of these things, and some of them have guns to their head or people try to kill them or anything like that. so on the one hand you are, you know, instead of being allies, instead of seen as allies and instead of views of the majority of muslims seen as the accurate views of islam, what happened in america unfortunately is actually the views of the

terrorists, you know, the terrorist views of what islam is was picked up. >> yes. >> and even those minorities were picked up and it was made the religion and it was a violation, it was a violation of the religion of many who practiced their religion and believe in the loving values of their religion and it was a violation of people, of american muslim identities in many ways being cornered into one single identity and di miss the diversity of religion. one other thing i want to say. >> please, go ahead. >> i'm an iraqi american and an immigrant here and escaped the persecution in iraq from saddam hussein's regime and i escaped from fear and so happy and appreciative of the freedom that i came here to america and the safety it was provided. so it was also september -- the ramification on muslim-americans after september 11 was very confusing for immigrants like me, because here you are escaping fear to come to freedom, but then the fear got

imposed in here. then here you are in my own native country, iraq, where they were -- you know, there's a brown university report that 800,000 people were killed in iraq and afghanistan, 330,000 civilians at least, and 35 million displaced people as a result of september 11 policies. so as we reflect on today's day, i feel like the reflection is how do we turn adversity into an opportunity for healing rather than using the same weapons that were used of the military and bombing and everything with that tragic event. >> it is interesting you bring that and ahmed i want you to weigh in on this. turning adversity into healing, part of the healing process for an alcoholic is admitting you have a problem. we were listening to george w. bush's speech earlier and it has

been applauded over and over throughout the day, as it should to a certain extent in identifying the domestic terrorism and pointing a finger who is to blame for the rice of domestic terrorism in the united states, but there was a part that stood out to me. i want to play it for you. >> there was a time bigotry might have flown freely. i saw americans reject prejudice and embrace people of muslim faith. that is the nation i know. >> now, let me be clear, ahmed. this country certainly did unite around the fact that thousands of people were killed on 9/11, but we also saw a rise in islamophobia in this country and religious bigotry in this country and hate crimes towards muslims. that, in fact, was not identifying the problem by the former president. >> yeah, i served in the bush administration.

i supported president bush's reach into the grassroots of american muslim life. he did good things, but his wars, you know, before 9/11 the world thought american exceptionalism was a employ. after 9/11 most americans now think american exceptionalism is a employ. much of that is because of bush's wars, which have helped not one group go to school, which has helped not one woman become head minister or head of state, and have caused a metastasizing of american racism. we must listen to black muslim women. black muslim women in american are the apex of american systemic racism and hate, and they should be the ones who lead us out of this. that is our own intra muslim problem. we must end apartheid against gay muslims within muslim communities. that is our problem. we must recognize the link between anti-semitism and

anti-muslim hate in america. muslims will never be free unless they commit to the freedom of jews in american to be jews. the more we understand our intra connection in the post 9/11 era, for people like women for women international, we won't be able to turn this page. >> as everybody knows here, i probably could take about this for the next seven hours, but we can't do that. so zainab salbi, ahmed younis, i thank you for sticking with me throughout the hour. >> thank you. >> thank you for this brilliant conversation on the day we remember the lives lost on 9/11. thank you. up next, everybody, the texas abortion law. does the department of justice have the jurisdiction to sue texas over new restrictions? there may be precedent to help their case. former u.s. attorney joyce vance is going to weigh in. we will be right back.

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restricts abortion after week six of pregnancy but doesn't make exception for rape or incest, now you have some questioning whether this will change the law or prevent other states from passing similar legislation as democrats are vowing to fight it with everything they have while many republicans remain pretty silent. joined now by nbc legal analyst and former u.s. attorney joyce vance. there is precedence for this, joyce, and to the state of arizona. i want to read for you about this case in the state of arizona. when arizona republicans approved their anti-immigration law in 2010, the obama administration's justice department sued, insisting that the state statute conflicted with existing federal law and gop state policymakers could not effectively undo federal law on their own. eventually the u.s. supreme court largely agreed, striking down the bulk of arizona's policy. so how do you see this, this playing out, the doj now suing the state of texas?

>> this is a very similar theory to the arizona immigration challenge. we filed a challenge in alabama the following year in 2011 to a similar but worse immigration statute, and the argument is essentially this, yasmin. it says when the federal government has dominated an area, when it has set forth the law of the land, states can't come in to play and create contradictory laws. that makes a lot of logical sense. you can't have this patchwork quilt of different enforcement in an area where the federal government has spoken and the supremacy clause of the united states says that when the federal government does speak its law is supreme. so doj is using that very similar approach from the immigration cases here on abortion. >> so one of the issues though in all of this, right, is that the doj's actually seeking an injunction from the fifth circuit, which has a reputation of being pretty right leaning.

is that something to worry about? how is this going to work? >> the fifth circuit is conservative, of course. it is a little bit of a misnomer to characterize the circuit. it is in the first instance three-judge panels who make these decisions. so we've got actually a ruling from the fifth circuit yesterday, and this is not in the doj case but in the earlier case brought by abortion providers and advocates in texas. in that case they're indicating that they don't believe that they're able to take any action against the law because of what they characterize as this novel enforcement mechanism that texas has used, this system of private vigilantes. but doj flipped that back on the courts in their complaint saying, since the courts have ruled since the supreme court has said that it won't issue a preliminary injunction in this private plaintiff's lawsuit, because there's this weird private vigilante enforcement

mechanism and the courts aren't equipped to deal with that, doj says, you have to let us be the party that goes in and enforces women's rights. it can't be the case that there's no one, so it has to be us. >> final thing here, joyce. is there an assumption you think inside the walls of doj this thing will get elevated to the supreme court no matter what? >> yes, i think this absolutely gets resolved in the court. i mean the real issue here after everything that we've seen is whether we now have a newly conservative supreme court that will apply different rules in cases that involve abortion than they do in other cases. it is pretty typical for courts in cases where serious constitutional rights are being infringed to block statutes from going into effect. the court did that earlier this year in a religious liberty case in new york where advocates for religious gatherings said that governor cuomo, then-governor cuomo couldn't block religious gatherings in order to prevent covid. now we have the supreme court doing something very different

in the area of abortion, and that's troubling. >> last thing here, joyce, because we are looking at the mississippi case, right, that's going to be heard in the supreme court in a couple of weeks or so, and a lot of us have been asking, well, we kind of know where the justices are going to land because of what they decided on the texas case, right? but this could be very different, as you mention, if the doj case against texas rises to the level of the supreme court because it challenges the constitutionality of the texas law. >> it is possible that the cases could be consolidated or it is possible that when the supreme court decides the mississippi case that it will resolve the texas case, too, because the mississippi case -- >> got it. >> -- very squarely presents the issue of whether roe is still good law. >> got it. joyce vance, thank you as always. always clearing things up for you. good to see you, my friend. all right. my head scratcher of the week, gaining the honor for sheer audacity, former trump adviser

kellyanne conway complaining about getting the boot from an undeserved position on an advisory board to the air force academy, calling it a break from presidential norms as well as, quote, petty and political. that's right, the woman who coined the tern alternative facts is threatened about a break after her time in the trump white house. it started with a day one speech on american carnage and included such highlights of presidential norms as a travel ban targeting muslims, the very fine people on both sides, comments after charlottesville, referring to s-hole countries in africa and threatening to pull out of nato that don't raise presidential norms. she might want to focus on presidential norms that is spending the night of the 20th anniversary of 9/11 providing commentary for a prize fight for a fee, of course. my highlight, alexandria

ocasio-cortez giving a tutorial on human sexuality on explaining why many women don't know they're pregnant by six weeks but she saved fire power for sarah palin. remember her, right? she tore into the congresswoman as a fake feminist and aoc replied with this on her twitter feed. >> does the fact that, yes, i am a mouth piece for the people of new york's 14th congressional district upset you? well, i have help for you. call 1-800-cry now. that's 1-800-cry-now. >> aoc gets the coveted high five of the week. we will be right back. be right . ♪♪♪

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welcome back, everybody. 20 years ago millions of americans watched surreal images of smoke pour from the spot where the world trade center towers stood just hours before. 20 years ago, americans were still asking what is al qaeda? and why do they hate us? then-president bush made a famous proclamation, american lives, u.s. policy, and the geopolitics of the globe changed forever. >> i can hear you. the rest of the world hears you, and the people -- [ cheers ] -- and the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon. [ cheers ]

>> days later, congress passed a joint resolution giving the president broad powers to use all necessary force against anyone involved in the attacks. shortly after, bush used the phrase war on terror and implemented sweeping domestic policies to find terrorists. on october 7th, 2001, air strikes began in afghanistan, the country known to be harboring al qaeda. that occupation, as we know, would continue for nearly two decades. in early 2002, the first terrorism detainees were brought to guantanamo bay. but it was later that year that president bush began making a case for military action in iraq, saying al baghdadi had weapons of mass destruction, which we now know was not true. a month later, the department of homeland security was born. eight years, eight months, and 29 days, that is how long the iraq war lasted.

saddam hussein was ousted and the region was permanently altered. his loyalists joined forces and isis was born. a decade after september 11th, arabs across the middle east began protesting their own governments for supporting the war. that's when we saw the arab spring exploding. bush began withdrawing troops from iraq in 2007. but it wasn't until early 2020 the iraqi parliament voted to withdraw all remaining u.s. soldiers from the region after multiple isis attacks centered on their presence. now, 20 years after the eventual, president biden's afghanistan withdrawal finally brought some sort of conclusion to the 9/11 era, in a recognition that this war on terror will never truly be over. so where do we go from here? joining me now is robbie agoual and bobby gauche from bloomberg opinion. gentlemen, thank you for joining me today on this somber day as we commemorate the lives lost on

9/11 and the tragic events of that day. i think this question of how you move forward, there's still obviously this pervasive threat abroad. as we look at the withdrawal of afghanistan, the vacuum that feasibly could be created to -- for another kind of, you know, terror -- terrorist organization to build, how do you monitor those threats from abroad without more loss of human life, thinking about thousands upon thousands of people both inside iraq and afghanistan and the americans that were lost as well? >> that's the thing. i think the united states now needs to figure out -- and biden has already sent them down this path -- of figuring out how to protect the homeland without actually being in other lands. counterterrorism over the horizon, oversight of what could be coming, what kinds of threats could attack america and how to

nip them in the bud. all of this would then have to be separated from, you know, the narrative of the last 20 years of trying to build up troop presence in other countries to try and nation-build somehow, to try and parenthesis -- prevent terrorists in other places. there's a paradigm shift in the way the u.s. national security establishment has even thought and conceptualized of protecting the united states. you know, some of this begins even with just terminology, the notion that you have a phrase "the war on terror" which implies a force that is essentially endless. we'll see a lot of rethinking, a lot of soul-searching, really, over the next few months to try and imagine, now that we've closed a chapter on afghanistan,

what comes next. >> bobby, i want to follow up on that one point that robbie just finished. who do you expect to do the rethinking when you heard lindsey graham saying we need to get back to afghanistan immediately considering how the withdrawal went? >> that's a good question. lindsey graham also said we need to involve pakistan, which is a whole other issue the united states needs to think about who its allies are, how it trusts various partners. much of this will depend on the role of the cia, the role of intelligence instead of military. and i think we've already begun to see this in sort of a passing of the baton from sort of the pentagon to the state department. and so, you know, diplomacy leading the way instead of military. >> bobby, let's talk about mistakes made in the past and

whether or not the u.s. is going to make them again. we talk a lot about nation-building. a big part of the u.s. foreign policy is about nation-building, democratizing nations. it's really not ever worked. and so as robbie talking about the soul-searching moment, right, thinking about the mistakes made in the past, there's this question as to whether or not the united states will make this mistake once again. have they learned their lesson in a way? >> it's not true that it didn't work. it worked in korea, japan, and germany. it has worked. it hasn't worked in afghanistan, plainly, although a stab was made at it and it is not working very well in iraq, but it is some kind of a democracy, better than it was before. but the larger question about, you know, what are the chances we'll make mistakes again, we already are. this whole notion of

over-the-horizon counterterrorism, we've been doing this for self years in various parts of the world without success, in yemen, in parts of east africa, we've been doing it in the sahara region in africa, it doesn't work. the terrorist groups are still active. the best that we can say for it is that until now we've been able to prevent another major attack on the american mainland. that's the extent. but we have not been able to stop the proliferation of these groups. if anything, they have accelerated, there are more of these groups in more places. and they're doing a lot of damage if not to the american homeland, than to other homelands of countries and people we care about in europe, in south asia, and elsewhere. and so we are making the same mistakes. i fear that we're going down exactly the same route as before, and we're saying things

like, well, there's a moderate taliban and it will be in their interest to help us fight the isis. there's no such thing. and it's not a question anymore about whether a terrorist group is going to take root in afghanistan. the taliban are a terrorist group now. they're no longer group they used to be. they have adopted, embraced a lot of terrorist tactics in their latest iteration. previously they never did suicide bombings. now they do suicide bombings as if it was as simple as breathing oxygen. they have become a terrorist group. we failed to observe that because it doesn't suit us. in this new government gnat taliban created, there are all kinds of people who are terrorists, who we recognize as terrorists. this is a taliban that could have been lined up by the al qaeda leader. this is his idea of a perfect government. we're kidding ourselves if we think that there's been a new

taliban but things are going to change and that we're going to be able to do this over the horizon thing from a safe distance, wherever that distance might be. i don't think it can be. >> we got to wrap up this conversation. i wish we could talk more. i appreciate your time this afternoon. gentlemen, thank you. that wraps up the hour for me. i'm yasmin vossoughian. i'll be back in the chair tomorrow 3:00 p.m. eastern. "politicsnation" with reverend al sharpton starts right now. welcome to "politicsnation." tonight's lead, ripple effects. the nation has seen a full generation mature in the shadow of an indiscriminate tragedy. and right now the white house is still commemorating the 20th anniversary of the september 11th attacks. president biden punctuating