i will post a link on social because we have a longer version of the interview. sometimes we go along with artists. there's stuff that didn't make us. thanks for watching. joy is up next. >> how are you doing? great to see you. i will just do a show with it being quiet. >> i feel like you might have news. >> i feel like there's nothing happening. i will make something happen. we will see. >> we will see. >> cheers. thank you very much. good evening, everyone. we have a lot to get to tonight. including some of -- you may have noticed a wee bit of twitter excitement over some comments i made last night about nicki minaj's comments about the vaccine. we will get to that tonight as well and about misinformation. all of that stuff is coming up. i will have more to say about that.

first, we are going to talk about new bombshell reporting from a new book on donald trump's final weeks in office. this one is pretty crazy, because it's donald trump and members of his administration who were concerned he might spark a war in order to try and stay in office. we will get to that. we begin tonight with the california recall election. results are coming in very shortly. polls actually close a little later on this hour. we are going to get to exit polling information that we have available. we will get to that as well. this is actually the sixth time that gavin newsom was trying to be recalled. apparently, that is a theme on the right. of course, the other theme that they have been working on is the idea that they can't lose elections. when they lose elections, they actually still win. they win elections whether or not they actually are counted the winner in the results. we will talk about that tonight. i want to go ahead and bring in our panel.

karen bass, a democratic member of the house of representatives on the judiciary committee, matthew dowd, who is a founder of country over party, the author, and jacob soboroff, joining us live from san francisco. he is our msnbc correspondent. let's start with just talking about this election, congresswoman bass. the exit polls will come in shortly. we will read what we have of those exit polls. we don't have all of it. we will give our audience what we've got. how are you feeling going into tonight? >> i'm feeling good. i think in the last couple of months and especially the last few weeks, momentum has picked up on the democratic side. i think for a long time, people didn't really think this was going to happen considering it is the sixth attempt. you know, joy, there are over 60 recalls happening in our state on every level of government. once we defeat the recall today, i think we need to take a step

back and see if there's something bigger at play. >> what's bigger at play, matthew, i think is this theme among republicans that it actually isn't possible for them to lose elections, that whenever they lose, they are just going to say in advance, if they feel a loss is coming, that it's rigged and that if they actually lose, it was definitely rigged and it was definitely fraud, which is a convenient way to turn around and say, the fraud happened among black and brown voters, therefore, we need to disenfranchise them. i feel like that is a theme playing out, especially in a state that's majority non-white. this is a state where they will not win a lot of elections. >> joy, every single thing they are doing shows a belief that they don't trust or believe in democracy. that's what all of this is about. everything we have seen is about this. whether it's only appealing to 5% of the country and trying to force all the things through, like here in texas or other places where 5% of the country

is all they care about, or it's lying about everything, including election results, so they don't actually believe in the will of the people and that democracy actually works because if they vote against the republicans, then they are going to corrupt the process and say it's fraudulent. or they want to restrict people's voting universal suffrage. the choice in america today isn't between a red and blue. it's between a party that believes in democracy still and has their disputes and disagreements, which is the democrats, and a party that does not believe in democracy. they do not believe that all people should be represented at the voting booth and that all votes should be counted. they don't believe in that anymore. >> it was said decades ago. i don't want everybody to vote. if everybody votes, we won't win. that's a natural political instinct to be afraid the other people will vote you out.

this is different, matthew, to stay with you. this is engineering ways -- making it so hard to vote that they cannot vote you out when you are doing things that the majority doesn't want. it's about being able to implement very unpopular, unwanted policies because the people -- the voters cannot remove you. >> joy, you and i have had this conversation before. i think that's the fundamental nature of this. republicans do not want to be held accountable. they know what they're doing in their heart is not what the american people want. they know they're not confronting the problems in america. they know they are pushing this culture war that the vast majority of the country doesn't want. what's their solution to that? the only mechanism the american public has to put their voice -- voice their will is the vote. what they're now doing is -- we're doing so many unpopular things and things detrimental to the country, we don't want to be held accountable. what do we do? we either keep people from

voting that we don't want to vote or, two, when we lose elections, lie and dispute the election results. they do not want to be held accountable. >> yeah, indeed. jacob, you had a chance to talk with the leading candidate, larry elder, the right wing radio host. you tried. we played it last night. we had to chop it up. it took so long. five times to get him to say he would simply respect the results of the election. i don't think he ever actually answered your question. you also got a chance to ask the current governor about what larry elder did last night. what did he say to you? >> essentially, that republicans, joy, are not respecting democracy in any way, shape or form led by larry elder here in california, but part and parcel of the trump strategy we saw after the november election. by the way, i saw that personally. this reminded me, speaking with larry elder, of what i saw on the day after the 2020 presidential election when i was

in las vegas and many literally ran away from us reporters as we asked them for any shred of evidence whatsoever to prove their claims about election fraud in nevada. they never answered that question. larry elder never answered my question. governor newsom had an easier time today answering that question when i posed the same question to him. he said, whether i win or lose, i will accept the results of the election. it all goes to show that democracy is not what's on the table here for republicans. there are many very serious issues to talk about in california. the congresswoman knows this as well as i do. the income inequality is out of control in california, homelessness is out of control in california, covid was hard hit in california, wildfires driven by climate change. none of those things are things that larry elder wants to talk about. he wants to talk about not accepting the results of the election. >> congresswoman bass, let's talk about some of the other characters involved. one of the things -- one of the

strategies that may have been successful, we don't know the results of the election yet for the governor, is to tie larry elder and the right and the people who are pushing this recall directly to donald trump and -- larry elder made it easy for them. among those other people who sort of fit into that are -- this is release the kraken lawyer. she's on the truth and liberty coalition. it sounds like it's in a movie. here it is. >> what do you think is going to happen in this election tomorrow in california, the recall? is that going to be marchmarred voter fraud? >> it is. in one county it has been reported that approximately 70% of the people who showed up to vote have been told their votes had been counted, they had voted. that wasn't true at all. the same thing is happening there that happened already. >> congresswoman, is it not true

that every single california -- eligible california voter received a mail-in ballot and that if you received a mail-in ballot and you mailed it back and you show up and try to vote, you will be told you already voted, am i wrong about that? >> right. it is ridiculous to think that 70% of the people that she referred to -- one of the things that's happening since last year is we don't have a lot of people showing up to vote in person. why? because we have extended democracy to every eligible voter. it is very easy to vote. i think that sowing the seeds of doubt -- recalls in every level of government -- we need to examine if this is to grind government to a halt. larry elder started a website talking about voter fraud. in the black community, i think he really energized black voters. we are real familiar with larry

elder. he has been around for a couple of decades. >> a long time. >> he spent his career attacking civil rights leaders and other black leaders. i think he was helpful in terms of making sure that we turn in those ballots and defeat this recall. >> he is a big fan of stephen miller and also george zimmerman, the man who killed trayvon martin. not sure that was good within black voters. let's look at some exit poll numbers. homelessness is number two. then economy, wildfires and crime. coronavirus is number one. among recall voters, 32% have said that gavin newsom's coronavirus policies are too string. 17% say they are not enough. the vast majority want there to be strict coronavirus rules.

among california recall voters, 34% say that getting the vaccine is a personal choice and 63% say it's a public health responsibility. do those numbers surprise you? >> one of the things we did in the state, we were on the forefront of really trying to bring the pandemic under control. nobody anticipated the delta virus. i think that threw things off. the other thing is that this election is costing over $200 million. you know the governor is up for re-election in just a few months. the next election is june. if you didn't like the governor, then just vote him out of office in the normal cycle. considering all of the problems, just think of the money being completely wasted on this recall and all the other recalls throughout our state. >> jacob, i have to ask you about that.

have politicians you talked to around the recall thought it's time to rethink this process? there have been multiple recalls. it's a thing in california. are democrats thinking about maybe changing it? >> there's no doubt about it. those conversations have started. we are talking about $276 million spent on this off-year recall election when there's going to be another election next year in 2022. it's almost preposterous to think about how much money is being spent on this so close to an opportunity for all californians to either vote newsom in or out. look at all of those issues that are up on the screen. those are the things that californians want to be talking about. they don't want to talk about non-existent, ridiculous conversations about whether or not the election is valid. take it from me, i went inside the los angeles county mail-in ballot processing center. the largest election jurisdiction not just in california but in the entire united states of america.

they check every single signature that goes into that facility. if there's any abnormality, they check it manually. there are 600 or 700 workers inside. it's no surprise that people are fed up with the process. they are starting to talk about what to do with the recall process. i wouldn't be surprised if we saw some deviations from the way it works now. >> indeed. it might be helpful. matthew, in some ways california in many ways is the future of america. it's what america is going to look like. it's a multi-racial democracy. it's an expanding democracy. it's an increasingly plushal -- pluralistic democracy. what's not on the poll is immigration. republicans have put all of their kind of chips in the idea that they're going to do immigration scare and they're going to do covid denialism.

>> this poll doesn't -- we don't know what's going to happen tonight. just by those results from the exit poll, it shows more people showed up and voted early that wanted more either -- the same restrictions or more restrictions on this. one of the things, as you showed those numbers, i was struck by is even in california, even in the progressive state, there is a third of the state that doesn't care, that doesn't fundamentally care. donald trump got a third of the vote in california, which is a very progressive state. it reminds me about our history. keep this in mind. a third of the country as the country is fundamentally change and we try to advance and we try to transform, has always been opposed. a third of the country didn't want the american revolution. a third of the country wanted to keep slavery in place. a third of the country didn't want women to have the right to vote. a third of the country was opposed to civil rights. every tap along the way, we have to keep in mind as we transform

to a more diverse democracy, there is a -- even one that wants to base things on science, there's a third of the country that fundamentally does not want to change. it has been happening for 240 years. >> absolutely. we need to make sure that third of the country doesn't do what 15% of south africa did and rule because they deleted democracy and were able to rule as a minority. that's what we have to keep an eye out for, defend our democracy from that third. thank you all very much. new revelations about the lengths u.s. military commanders went to to keep the twice impeached former president from starting a nuclear war. democrats come up with a new compromise proposal on voting rights. manchin said he can get ten republicans to sign on. the impact of vaccine hesitancy among black americans. nicki minaj had choice words for

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launch. according to the book, he told the group, no matter what you are told, you do the procedure, you do the process and i'm part of the procedure. he went around the room asking each officer for confirmation they understood, looking each in the eye. got it, he asked? yes, sir. got it, he asked another? yes, sir. milley considered it an oath. that's chilling. there was a conversation between him and nancy pelosi. she said, he's crazy, you know he is crazy. madam speaker, he said, i agree with you on everything. that's not scary enough? despite assumptions that mike pence stood up for the constitution it appears he was more open to abetting his former boss' big lie than we ever heard before. talking through his struggles with former vice president dan quayle who noted, there was no evidence of fraud. well, there's some stuff out in arizona, pence said.

quayle replied, mike, i live in arizona, there's nothing out here. pence told the former president as much during a january 5 oval office meeting, he couldn't do anything about the election. trump replied, i don't want to be your friend anymore if you don't do this. that sounds like a fourth grader. he said something similar, blasting kevin mccarthy after kevin blamed him for the insurrection. reportedly saying, this guy called me every single day pretending to be my best friend and then he f-ed me. jonathan, i have to go to you first. this toggles between sounding like a conversation a fourth grader had about something he thought was his best friend and literal fears that we were about to be in a nuclear war. any commentary out of the former president's camp about this book so far?

this stuff is scary. >> i would like to note dan quayle is an unlikely savior of the republic, it would appear. >> can't spell potato but he can spell democracy. >> clearly. that conversation with mike pence, a fellow indiana republican, was seen as influential in making pence say he could not do anything about the certification of joe biden's victory on january 6. in the last few minutes, joy, the former president released a statement denying basically all charges in this book, the excerpts we have seen. the book is not out for another week. saying he never had any intention to have any attack with china. he criticized milley. he said he denied elements of the conversation with mike pence. a blanket denial and accused the book of being fiction. we should note the two journalists involved with top notch. it's a dramatic telling of some of the final days of the trump

administration with chairman milley talking to his chinese counterpart twice. once before the election and a little after the insurrection, trying to tell the chinese that, we have established a rapport. his counterpart saying, nothing is going to happen, we're not going to war. if something were to occur on our end, i would be sure to give you a heads up so we can deal with this together. that revelation there as a final point is being met with criticism from other republicans today here in washington. senator cruz and others suggesting that traitorous behavior to talk to the chinese like that. senator rubio called for joe biden to fire him. >> okay. good luck with that. he seems to be the greatest patriot that was on duty during the previous administration. this is another excerpt. this is general milley who is emerging as an important and heroic american figure in this era. milley told his countcounterpar

this may look unsteady. general li, we are 100% steady. democracy can be sloppy. that might be the understatement of the year. he had a low moment in his term walking behind donald trump when he went to hold a bible to pretend he held a bible before. he walked along with that. apparently, that reportedly influenced general milley's belief that trump would engage in a wag the dog scenario. your thoughts on this? >> that's right. i think general milley was clear after he faced a lot of criticism for that. he said, i was wrong. i shouldn't have done that. i didn't realize. i shouldn't have done it. he really learned from that, i think. he issued a clear statement before the election. he said the military is not

going to get involved in politics. it shouldn't get involved in politics. i think that also was essentially a warning to president trump, don't try to use the military to stay in power. that's not our role. that's not our job. the military has a duty to obey lawful orders but a duty to disobey unlawful orders. we were in a situation that puts any ethical military leader in a really tough spot. you want to obey your commander in chief, but you have a commander in chief who made is clear he is willing to violate the law. i can understand why milley felt like we need to be alert to the possibility. if there are orders given that are not lawful, we don't obey them. our higher duty is to the constitution, not to the president. >> am i the only one that looks at the collective story of donald trump's behaior and thinks as he was getting older and watching the old soviet union and watching russia emerge

as the autocracy, he didn't get horrified, he got ideas? this feels like a story about a crumbling eastern european dictatorship or something rather than the united states. he is trying to emulate sort of putinism. >> he wasn't eve a -- shy about admitting it. when he was called on by journalists, he said, i was joking. we know that president trump's jokes very often ended up precedenting things he tried to do. he joked about staying in office. he joked about if the election didn't go his way, he was going to stay. that's what he tried to do. no question about it, have any example of horrific anti-democratic behavior in the world and gave president trump ideas.

>> any behind the scenes discomfort among republicans about this kind of behavior? any at all? >> joy, as you know, there haven't been that many republicans who have been willing to criticize the former president, whether in or out of office. today, since the release of this book, there has not been much in the way of any on the record condemnation. the republicans we have heard from are targeting their criticism on general milley, nothing on the former president. they seem to go along with his denials, at least to this point. some behind the scenes reporting suggests some worry. less about trump behavior, more about what it could mean for the future, the relationship with minority leader mccarthy, one who is believed to have been close with the president throughout his time in office. we know the former president was angry with mccarthy after he con determined the insurrection and blamed trump in part.

they have kissed and made up. we have seen mccarthy down at mar-a-lago. it's unclear whether or not trump will be angry at mccarthy. if he is, that endangers mccarthy's ability to become speaker if the republicans regain control of the house. certainly, there aren't going to be many republicans willing to defy trump, go against his wishes. i should note the white house, the current white house, joe biden's white house, declined to comment on the contents of the book. we expect to hear from them in the days ahead. >> that would be poetic justice for kevin and also trump is never going to let him braid his hair anymore if they are not best friends anymore. it's a weird world we live in. we are living in the nightmare. thank you very much. still ahead, senator manchin says he can get ten reasonable republicans to vote for a new compromise bill on voting rights. i can hardly say that without laughing. introducing fidelity income planning. we look at how much you've saved,

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schemes as a means to increase confidence in election integrity. republican language. it has almost zero chance of passing. it's up to joe manchin to get ten republicans to join him. he doesn't have a plan beyond them being his friends. >> what's your pitch to republicans? >> i have had lisa murkowski and i have had conversations. conversations with my republican friends. they are interested in talking about it. >> what's your pitch to republicans who have said this is a federal takeover of elections? they don't want to do this. what are you telling republicans? >> i'm talking to reasonable republicans and friends of mine that understand we need guardrails. >> to no one's surprise mitch mcconnell said he expects zero republicans to vote for the bill. he and i agree. it would bring up the issue of the filibuster. according to jonathan lemire,

there is growing momentum in the white house to work with senators on making some sort of change to the filibuster. i'm joined by california democratic senator alex madea. can you name ten republicans who you think would vote for this bill? >> i'm not going to go through the exercise of naming ten because i think all 50 should be on board. i've been in the middle of this debate and discussion since i got here in january. if it's one thing i keep hearing from republicans it's, they are so committed to making it easier to vote and harder to cheat. we know it's hard to cheat. voter fraud in america is rare. if they want to make it easier to vote, here is that plan. multiple options for registering to vote, staying registered to vote and actually casting your ballot. >> should and is are two different things. republicans have made it very

clear that they believe -- they suddenly have come to believe that mail-in voting is fraudulent, since black people and brown people started using it. suddenly -- it's the way they used to vote. no, you can't have -- that's in this bill. that alone means there's no way they will do it. what would be the point of compromising on codifying voter i.d.? making voter i.d. a thing could you go to court in theory and say, well, this bill says voter i.d. is the way you make people feel more confident in voting. why give that away if none will go for a bill that lets people vote by mail? they are never going to do that. >> a few things. a very important clarification. there's a segment of the bill that speaks to voter i.d., but it's not a national voter i.d. mandate. states like california, my home state, that don't have a voter i.d. won't have to impose one.

what this bill does do is say for states that choose a voter i.d., has to be expansive and inclusive of many types of identification, not just concealed weapons permit or something limited that leaves out seniors, students, et cetera. states that don't have voter i.d. are not required to adopt it. second, a lot of the reforms here that are not just ideas that we hope work, but tonight there's a recall election in california for a special standalone election in an odd year. we are seeing pretty damn good participation rates because of reforms called for in the freedoms to vote act have been implemented in california. automatic registration, same-day registration, no excuse vote by mail. look at the facts. if you look at the statistics, these reforms are great for participation and transparency and security of elections. >> the point you made about your

home state, respectfully, are what prove my point, that they will not go for this. republicans will lose this recall which they know is the only way that they can elect a far right wing ron desantis-style governor, which is what they want to do. they know they can't do it because california is racially diverse, progressive. californians care about covid and want to stop covid. they don't want to let it in. that's going to reinforce for all of the republicans that there's no way they should let this through. aren't we back down to having a conversation -- the ap is reporting that there's been some conversation, that even manchin and sinema, who have been wrapping their arms around the filibuster like it's their life boat, that there may be some attempt to reform the filibuster. isn't that really the only way this is going to pass? get rid of it or reform it? >> that's what it's going to boil down to. the crossroads are ten republicans to step up and do

the right thing or short of that redo, undo these outdated rules in the united states senate for the sake of our democracy. yes, in time for the 2022 elections. >> let me show -- just to remind you. 18 states have passed 30 new laws, anti-voter laws where -- they are in a lot of the usual suspect states, where you would expect, particularly in the old confederate states. 400 plus restrictive voting provisions introduced in 49 states. republicans control most of the gerrymandering opportunities. republicans control 187 districts. democrats only control 75. we are headed toward minority rule, senator. republicans want minority rule. i will just re-rack my question. why waste the time to allow joe manchin to do this, when both of

us are rational enough to understand he cannot. why not proceed to getting rid of the filibuster? >> look, i think this is the process of getting to the point where republicans cannot have it both ways. they cannot insist that changes to election law at the federal level has to be done on a bipartisan basis while they are complicit with partisan attacks on a right to vote in statehouse after statehouse across america. we need every democrat to acknowledge that and have the gumption to change the rules if they need to for the sake of our democracy. >> i hope that that is the outcome. thank you very much, senator. appreciate your time tonight. still ahead, all it took was one tweet from nicki minaj to her 22 million followers to serve up a whole boat load of controversy about vaccine misinformation. we will respond with just the facts next.

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yesterday, i had a spontaneous reaction to hip hop star nicki minaj tweeting about a friend of a cousin who allegedly had a negative reaction to a covid vaccine. some folks said it sounded like an std. but i'm not a doctor. she made public her own vaccine deliberation, which according to trusted friends is a better way to describe vaccine hesitancy, which is not the same as refusal. by doing so, she used her social media platform and her 22 million twitter followers to cast doubt on the vaccine to a heavily black audience. needless to say, my comments and her infuriated responses went viral. she was not amused. that's okay. every moment is a teachable moment. this might be the one that illustrates on twitter in public how hard it is for us to talk to each other on these two sides of the get the vaccine, don't get

the vaccine aisle. there's frustration and anger among those of us who feel like we have been doing the right thing to end this virus. those who are not doing the things. those who are not getting vaccinated are mad at us for excluding them from our spaces and in some cases from our lives. there's a lot of anger out there. what disturbs me are those who care nothing about black communities and who are hostile to our interests. i'm talking white nationalist curious twitter bugs and chatter bugs like tuck. >> dale: -- tuckums and marjory, using her vaccine misinformation to try to back up their own phony campaigns, pushing their base to reject the vaccine while they are probably fully vaccinated themselves. these are the same republicans and republican talkers who have been working overtime to try to put vaccine refusal on black people's shoulders, to try to

morph mandates into some airborne virus version of 1950s segregation as if they would have opposed segregation. it's not only disingenuous, it's anti-facts. it's republicans who listen to fox news and people like tuckums and marjory and candice who refuse to be vaccinated. black americans are democrats and we poll like democrats when it comes to getting the vaccine. there's still a lot of vaccine hesitancy among black folks. everything from just being reluctant or fear of potential side effects, all the way up to conspiracy theories about the vaccines that are causing people to refuse to take them or just delay. that needs to be addressed. let's be clear, there are good, solid reasons for black people to have doubts. our history in this country when it comes to the medical and medical research establishments are not good.

when we had a sociopath president in office, who was manipulating the cdc and fda, pushing for a quick vaccine, by election day, so he could assure his owe re-election, you could count me among the hesitant. trump nearly broke the once trusted cdc and fda, to the point you couldn't be sure you were hearing from scientists and not just the political hacks when either agency spoke. yeah, people like me were hesitant. luckily, there have been doctors and scientists who could reassure those of us who were willing to be reassured that the vaccines, once they came out, months later, were safe. had been produced without any trumpist input, whether or not they came through the unfortunately named operation warp speed. we didn't have to do our own research, because we could talk with the black woman who developed the moderna vaccine, or doctors on this show who personally treat covid patients

and could assure us vaccines were safe. that's why i got vaccinated months ago. my immediate family got vaccinated. yes, i talked to my doctor. something that lots of black folks who live in red southern states that have refused to expand medicaid cannot do because they don't have a doctor or regular contact with the medical establishment until they get sick. vaccine hesitancy in the black community is a real and pressing issue. it's not something to fight about on twitter. it's something to talk about. coming up next, we will do just that with dr. blackstock. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere.

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it's a tried and true tactic deployed by the right when it comes to, well, any problem facing the united states, and that's blaming the black people. >> when the president of the united states is losing patience he's losing patience with ph.d.s. they are one of the largest section of people who are getting the shot, medical workers as well as africans because only 4 of 10 have gotten the shot. why doesn't the president call out africans who put him in office and yell at them to get the shot? >> so, yes, vaccine hesitancy is an issue in the black and people of colored communities. a recent cnn poll shows 22% of black americans say they'll not get vaccinated. the same as the overall national average. but among republicans, well that number was 35%.

joining me now is the founder and ceo of advancing health equity. thank you so much for being here. sister, i appreciate you being here. so let's start. you responded to the tweet. the thing i think wasn't the first tweet so much where she said her own kind of connection to getting the vaccine had to do with working which for a lot of people the mandates are why they're going to do it. it was that second tweet where she said a friend of a friend of a friend somehow wound up with impotence related problems. and you tweeted i'd love to talk to you about the covid vaccine. impotence is more likely from covid. that is one of the things they say it'll make you infertile, impotent. are there any kinds of instances of these happening from the vaccine? >> thank you for having me.

the vaccine myths are very sexy and seductive and been associate would the vaccines in the past and now again with the covid vaccine. what's unfortunate it keeps on being perpetuated despite growing evidence there's no known association between a covid vaccine or impotence or infurlt in females or males at all. >> i have a lot of her music in my phone but also she's caribbean american like myself and like yourself, and i know i'm fighting with caribbean american members of my own family who even when they're not in the united states are getting this crazy disinformation. and we're in, you know, multiple countries arguing with people. my godmother is in jamaica right now and is terrified because she doesn't know who's vaccinated around her. let's look at the vaccine rates. in the united states we're at

54%, which is not bad. but in the caribbean it's really, really low. jamaica is only at 6%. she's talking about trinidad. these caribbean islands are much more at risk of dying from covid because they can't even get access to the vaccine. that frustrates me. does it frustrate you? >> very frustrating. i'm a fan and interestingly my jamaican father was first in line to get the vaccine because, you know, i'm his daughter and we had multiple conversations about the importance of him taking the vaccine to keeping him safe. i think my concern with her tweet is it sounds like she was sort of thinking out loud about the vaccine, but to put that information out there with the platform she has is harmful. it's dangerous. and so -- >> can you tell me a better way to have this conversation with people who are vaccine hesitant? when you confront people who are

hesitant what is a way to talk to them -- not the refusers. not the republicans who are like trump is my god, i'm never getting the vaccine. but people in our communities who are nervous about it, what do you say to tem? >> everyone has their own whys and why notes. i ask them what is the reason that makes you concerned, what have you heard, where did you get this information from? that's the other thing. people are getting information from unreliable sources. they're getting information from their hair stylist, their barber. they're not getting it from the public health professionals, from physicians. i try to be as nonjudgmental as possible. even though it's incredibly frustrating i always want to make sure we're keeping the lines of communication open. and i also realize it may not change their mind with one conversation. we may need multiple conversations. what's most important is making sure that they have accurate, responsible messaging, that they have the facts. so, for example, with fertiltiy

there's no data. in fact, what we know about covid is covid has been associated with impotence. covid infections have been associated with erectile dysfunction. and covid infections in pregnant people leads to hospitalization and death with pregnant mothers and pre-term delivery. there's disconnect between what covid can do and what the covid vaccine can do. >> i did a recent pro-vaccine event trying to encourage people to get vaccinated immediatech and a lot of people who came out were actually terrified. there was a one who wept, we took her hands and had to pray with her because she was so terrified of the vaccine. but she did it and was so proud of herself afterwards. one of the big issues with vaccine hesitancy particularly directed at us and the disinformation being directed at

us, it's being done when half of black americans still live in the south, where most of those states have not expanded medicaid. so if i'm a person who has lots of money and i can afford to say be skeptical of the vaccine the people who hear that probably don't have a doctor, don't have access to health care, can't ask a doctor and god help them if they got sick. they're going to die. that bothers me. >> such an excellent point. and even more so why we need black celebrities, physicians, athletes to more so be speaking out in favor than they have done. i've been personally disappointed among the silence among black celebrities taking this vaccine. because we know even putting out some degree of misinformation their fans are people in the rural south, like you said people who don't have access to health care, people who don't have access to good public health. and so they are much more

vulnerable which makes it even more potentially dangerous to put out that information. >> indeed. doctor, thank you for being here and having this conversation with me. don't forget to check out the all new reid out black. takes on the cast of unhinged challengers in the california recall and breaks down the right wing hero worship for anti-vaxers. in all with chris hayes starts now. tonight on "all in." >> if mike pence does the right thing we win the election. >> new reporting on just how close mike pence came to caving to trump. and new alarms about the people he's tapping to help take the white house next time. tonight mark elias on the ongoing threat to democracy and stacey abrams on tonight's big voting rights compromise among democrats. and then should vaccinations be required to fly on an airline? dr. anthony fauci on why he supports the idea. and the one and only steve kornacki is here to kick off election night coverage