agenda and a tough road to go in terms of balancing that infrastructure bill and the larger reconciliation package bringing those democrats together's following it each and every day as it developing. thank you again. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪♪ gosh, the sun hasn't even come up yet. >> here we go. here we go. once again, we look at the top of the comcast building, and, willie, you know -- >> fantastic. >> comcast, so is mika's penthouse up there. >> no. >> where she's been living. like howard hughes with bottles all around. >> okay. >> and living there, and -- >> meet you up there. >> good morning! and -- welcome. >> no, no. >> to "morning joe." >> oh, wait a second. i'm talking to my friend willie. >> i see that. >> talking to my friend willie

implgts maybe you ought to see him more than once a week to get used -- >> we can talk with like a 47-second delay. >> you act like it's the first time in ten years. >> hello, joe. how are you? >> i am doing fine. thank you. >> good morning. >> live from the international space station. >> exactly! exactly. hello, my fellow earth. anyway, yeah. we got together. >> uh-huh. >> willie and i always get together do the editorial about 2:30, 2:45. >> go for a run. >> yeah. >> ah. >> go for a run. go through the park. >> push each other, too. >> yeah. miss you, 2:30 in the park running through the park and go how are we going to set this show up? so we decided to go really, really salacious today. >> yeah. lean in to the tabloid stuff. we know it sells, gets clicked. >> it does! >> we know what the people want. >> kim kaye's met gala outknit?

>> kind of like that. really close to that. you know, willie, that famous warning from so long ago, when paris hilton got out of prison. >> no. i don't remember. >> i'm still struck by you know -- we were talking about what a fine, young wholesome girl she was and had gone in. you know, found the lord. did her time. had been working -- >> i don't think viewers remember that. a long time ago. >> gospel of proverbs. >> what do you have? >> professor of the university eddy glock joining us for all this. >> how are you today? >> wonderfully. >> what's -- yeah. you're -- your grandparents probably said the same thing. remember back in -- so how's school going? >> started up, princeton.

>> first time there since ott seven. kids in there. >> going well but nerve-racking, in our little section and students coughing and you could see the students, and myself, everybody tensed up. you know? so it's -- we have a wonderful testing regime and everything, but it's still nerve-racking. >> that's me. i'm a sneezer from way back. sneezer from way back. works out really well on planes. mika makes me quadruple mask. >> no. he sneezes. >> can i ask you something, professor, there was a debate on the twitter machine a couple weeks' back. who was it? dan drezner. somebody said, hey, students that are coming in, don't call your professors, like, steve, mary, bob. he said, you know, probably call

them professor so and so, and a lot of people, a lot of kids got really upset about that. do they call you -- because i'm just saying. kids, call them professor. okay? maybe your friends on, like, the twitter machines, oh, you can call them bob or mary. no. don't do that. do they call you professor or just come up to you and go, ed -- >> no. don't call me eddy. some graduate students do. they're adults and working, so, but -- no. >> okay. well, see, that's good to know. >> we settled that. >> tradition. one of my favorite madeleine albright stories, had always called mika's father dr. brzezinski. dr. brzezinski. and then finished her doctorate and got on the plane, both flying from colombia down to d.c. she's walking past goes hi spig.

said he almost had a heart attack. >> no. he asked her -- >> the funny thing mika calmed him dr. brzezinski, too! doesn't alex? >> there are some people that i still call mr. or mrs. or dr. i can't help myself. jonathan lemire up way to early for us and with us now. let's get to the news. not that is a salacious. >> the payoff. you do setup? >> five minutes and then hit the punch line. >> not that salacious. president joe biden announced a security with australia in an effort to counter china's rising power. kind of a chess move. a senior administration official described the pact as historic and said it would increase cooperation among the three nations on military defense, cyber threats and supply chain security in the indo-pacific

region. as part of the agreement, the u.s. plans to share its nuclear powered submarine technology with australia. just a handful of countries including china and russia have nuclear powered submarines. biden said the u.s. will work with australia over the next 18 months to determine every element of the nuclear submarine acquisition process, including the safe production and use of the subs. the move wasn't aimed at any one country -- >> other than china. >> -- but biden was looking to china. >> china especially. >> -- biden pointed to china as one of the biggest national security threats facing the u.s., and it comes in stark contrast to the previous administration's relationship with one of america's staunchest allies, which was at times contentious. in a 2017 phone call between the newly elected president trump and australian prime minister, trump blasted the australian leader over a refugee agreement,

and boasted about the magnitude of his electoral college win before abruptly ending the call more than 35 minutes early -- >> so this is interesting. it is a -- >> those were the days. >> the trump administration, jonathan lemire. i was horrified what our allies thought of us, but australia always one of our closest allies and had a rough relationship with them for a good part of the administration. so despite the fact they'd been with us side by side. but this is, it's really significant news for people who are just waking up. it's significant news, because obviously china has been dominating events over in that region. building islands. militarizing the south china sea. you know, and -- and this is a good example of the united states and australia saying together, yeah. we got an island, too. it's called australia.

>> a big one. >> and this -- this -- i just -- this is a really significant move for the 21st century. i didn't even know it was coming. talk about the background and the implications of it. >> a significant news and indeed salacious. the number of times page 6 led with items on australian submarines, live lost count. >> they love it. i know. this is, probably, i'm sure on the -- what's the headline? >> just before ben and j. lo. knocked them down one slot. >> it's bennifer. right? >> say that again? >> yeah. australia. >> so big deal indeed. secrecy here. talks going on for some time behind the scenes in the capitol and australia. advised yesterday mysteriously by the white house a national security initiative to preview yesterday evening but den get into it what's was coming and

everything embargoed. the word wasn't mentioned dural president biden's event. flanked by video screens by the prime minister's of the uk and australia but that event was all about china. they made clear, these submarines expensive and difficult to make, nuclear powered but not equipped with nuclear weapons. all three hit that note. it's about projecting strength in that region to counteract china's growing influence. we know from day one of this administration joe biden painted china as the economic rival for the united states in this century. and that this is a step to try to counter its also geostrategic advantage there, where china slowly tried to grow its influence in the south china sea picking up more territory, alarming their asian neighbors. australia, joe, to your point, is someone the u.s. is prioritizing a relationship with. a meeting next week. u.s. has with other allies including japan and korea. again, strengthening those ties. and it comes at a time when

president xi of china reluctant to meet with president biden at a summit next month. no search in favor of this deal. beyond perhaps the chinese. the french. france made it very clear they are unhappy to be left out of this agreement. >> yeah. furious about it and made that known just this morning. public statement, why cut us out of this deal? down the road with australia for something like this. look at the response. chinese government came out immediately saying this is cold war thinking, a mistake. the united states shouldn't be doing this. and the united states as we just showed has gone out of its way to suggest this is not about that. just about nuclear propulsion and meanwhile haven't shared this technology in 60 years, the united states, with any other country and now doing it clearly, obviously, directed at china and china knows it well. >> yeah. into the scene of "hunt for red october." acting dumb. lost another sub?

oh my god. how could that be? you're upset we're putting nuclear subs in australia -- what? directed at luxembourg! just propulsion. no. you look historically at where we are with china, and i've said time and again we need to look at the chinese as potential allies. need to look at the chinese as partners, because we're not getting much done without china. that said, you look at what xi's been saying over the past month or so, the actions over the past year. not only have they moved away from being a more market-oriented economy, look what they're doing in hong kong, with, all across the region and look again atxi's own speeches over the past month or so where he's talking like a cold warrior. that appears to be the world that he wants. okay. fine. you want, you believe there's a cold war. you believe your people have to get tough and get ready for a showdown with the united states.

okay. well, we can do that, too. and so, i mean -- there's just no denying that if xi continues in this direction we are unfortunately moving towards a cold war. and in that situation, australia now finds itself in the position that, well, west germany was, during the actual cold war. and -- and so suddenly our most important allies here. japan, south korea and australia, who, again, we've treated very badly over the past four, five years. >> and eddy, precisely one of the points president biden made when he was justifying the withdrawal from afghanistan. he said we don't want to be mired in afghanistan another five, ten years while the world is moving towards china. this is the new world. this is who we need to be confronting in ways like we're seeing this morning. >> right. you know, for me, as someone who's not really invested in kind of the projection of the u.s. power in this way, i'm kind

of nervous. one thing i don't want is another cold war, although i understand the dynamics. you know, we leave one, we have one at home, we have the situation in afghanistan, but in light of the disaster of trumpism, this makes all the sense in the world to me. i think that's very clear, too. >> the white house is defending chairman of the joint chiefs of staff mark milley against calls from some republicans to charge him with treason. >> oh. what idiots. >> -- let go -- thank you. >> very confident in general milley. >> i don't think the president is looking for the guidance of members of congress who stood by while the president of their -- the president of the united states and leader of their party fermented an insurrection and many were silent. >> kind of counts them out as --

treason? >> and general milley is one of the last. >> treason is a word that can be used in washington these days. >> general milley has come under criticism this week after details surfaced of two phone calls he made to a chinese general late last year without former president donald trump's knowledge. the calls were reportedly meant to reassure beijing that efforts were in place to prevent the outgoing president from potentially ordering a missile strike against china. those revelations are outlined in an upcoming book by "washington post" reporters bob woodward and robert costa. in a statement, a spokesperson for the joint chiefs of staff writes in part -- "general milley regularly communicates with the chiefs of defense across the world, including china and russia. these conversations remain vital to improving mutual understanding of u.s. national security interests, reducing

tensions, providing clarity and avoiding unintended consequences or conflicts". >> we explained how this happened during the nixon administration, 1973. >> it's not perfect. >> 1974. kissinger had to step in at one point when nixon was doing really badly during 1973, arab-israeli war, and tell the prime minister of great britain that nixon wasn't, couldn't talk. he was busy. also happened, though, time and again when you could talk about when nixon was president there were assurances going from that administration to leaders across the world. everything's fine. this -- yeah. and so after january the 6th, eddy, something that had to be done. >> uh-huh. >> something that -- you know, and i would want my generals, i would want others, whether it was donald trump, richard nixon or woodrow wilson to say,

everything's fine. this is what i love. these people are accusing him of treason for calling up the chinese and saying, hey, everything's fine. this is democracy. it's messy. don't take advantage of us. you don't want to try to take advantage of us at this moment. if you do -- >> uh-huh. >> you'll be sorry. and no excuse to say, oh, they were about to attack us because i'm here to tell you we are not going to attack you. and so that's what i want a general -- that's what america wants their jerngenerals to do. why don't we just admit it. they're little snowflakes that melted when general milley went to the hill and actually said he read a book, a critical race -- they just melted. these little snowflakes so delicate and so pure, they're so natural and their mothers told them and their fathers told them, every one of you, every one of you is separate and different. there's no one snowflake like another. yet all of these snowflakes on

the republican side, they're alike in one way. they're all melting, because general melly said the words "critical race theory" and said, yeah, i've read about it. good to know that. marxism. i've read about it. and they -- they still, they're still in a freak-out mode. and here this guy takes steps to defend america, to let china know that we're just fine. don't take advantage of this situation. and now they're -- they're saying he's treasonist? >> helps me, joe. i was baffled. >> critical race theory. can't get pass it. what they're running on next year. once he did that, he stepped from their tribe to another tribe. >> ah. >> and the snowflakes -- it's all separate, mind you! all started melting. >> i couldn't quite understand this. right? i didn't know what was motivating it so i went

abstract. do they have executive power so expensive even a general can't intervene. the folks who inhabit the executive branch can't in some way ensure the security of the nation? that the commander in chief holds everything? >> but you just said a word, intervene. he never intervened. they weren't around the table and donald trump didn't say hey, let's bomb china. i'm not going to do that. just made a phone call. listen, don't take advantage of the united states. don't even think about it. if you do, you'll be sorry. so it wasn't really intervening and they're still melting down. >> yeah, but this helps. this helps. crt. he's left the tribe. >> he left the tribe. yeah. so now let's accuse him of treason for eating a jelly doughnut, and having some of the jelly drop on some of his medals, willie. >> the more we learn about this the more we learn he was not alone in this effort. axios reported defense secretary

esper, his people reached out. you're watching january 6th and a president who is visibly unwell, might make a irrational decisions now. we've got this. don't worry. we've got this. don't worry. jonathan lemire, general melly will be on capitol hill in a couple of weeks actually testifying about afghanistan. where all of this will come to a head. asked these questions by republicans and democrats. >> yeah. no question this will now become a major focus of those hearings. certainly republicans made it clear. champing at the bit to go after it suggesting he is a traitor, went outside the chain of command by doing this. as said, he wasn't alone. this is the sort of practice that does happen from time to time in moments of real tension and in crises. you'll note that general milley's statement there from the join chiefs wasn't a denial by any means. not something they're return ago way from. deemed a patriotic duty.

white house side-stepped questions how president biden would feel, step around him and delivered this, and i asked press secretary psaki, yes, they feel he is a patriot. heard that from the president later in the day as well. despite calls for milley to resign or be fired, no sign of that coming. instead the white house believing he did his job at a time of extreme crisis, january 6th. extreme peril for this nation. >> and you just have to look at the republicans. you -- you look at this party that -- kurt bardella talking about continued decline across the country and you look at this and say, wait a second. this is a political party that spent the past five years trashing the fbi. >> uh-huh. >> who, by the way, got -- got donald trump elected.

the head of the fbi dot donald trump elected. trashing the cia. trashing the intelligence community. sitting back, being quiet for the most part. especially in the house when donald trump said he trusted russia and vladimir putin more than he trusted our intel community. now they're trashing general milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs. this is what we republicans back when i was a republican, this is what we always accused democrats of doing! we would go around. i'd be campaigning what do you think about -- well, we're not letting the church commission gut our intel community! we talked about the church commission 80 years, well, maybe 20 or 30 -- but it's just insane! this is a party that is now attacking generals, the fbi, the cia, the intel community. the very people who keep us

safe. it's crazy. >> so we'll be following this. still ahead on "morning joe," fencing is returning around the u.s. capitol and police there are asking for backup ahead of this weekend's far-right rally. plus, former fda commissioner dr. scott gottlieb joins the conversation as top scientists question the need for covid booster shots. and olympic gold medalist simone biles and three other star gymnasts testified before congress about the sexual abuse scandal that rocked usa gymnastics. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. welcome to allstate. where you can pay a little less and enjoy the ride a little more.

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it's a beautiful, beautiful shot, willie. willie, so, quickly. a couple things we forgot. also, eddie brought up in the break. yeah, again. they trash our generals, and people that have given their entire life to defending the united states of america, and risk their lives time and again, and the intel community. republicans trashing the intel community and then, hey, you forgot. they trash cops, when it's -- when you have people that are using american flags to bash the brains in of law enforcement officers, they also don't stand up and defend those cops. >> right. talking about january 6th. most americans aren't going to take a lecture on patriotism and treason from a group of people who cheered on insurrection, explained it away called it a normal tourist visit as cops were being beaten. 1,000 cases of assault on police officers that day and all the people calling for patriotism

and treason talking about general milley, happy to look the other way about what happened that day. >> and are trying to cover up the attacks on the cops. >> yeah. >> trying to cover up the investigation on why those cops were brutalized and beaten and abused. why -- why there was an attempt at an insurrection. please. you're right. they're the last people that should be lecturing on patriotism. the last people that should be lecturing on treason. >> they wanted to overturn the election. to take away the foundation of democratic government. still happy to do that, and yet now they're lecturing on patriotism and treason. >> and still -- still, again, they're covering it up. by the way, i said there are three parties. republican party, democratic party and insurrectionist party and we need to be clear about that. well, the republican party voted with the insurrectionist party to cover up any investigation that would get to the bottom of how donald trump and how other republican members of congress

worked together to try to commit treason, tried to commit insurrection, tried to commit sedition against the united states of america. we know -- we know -- there was a conspiracy to commit sedition. you look up the statute. it's clear-cut. they were trying to stop a constitutional action, which was a counting of electoral votes. it's right there. that's sedition. that's 20 years in prison, and yet -- is it every republican? did every republican vote? to cover that up? >> uh-huh. adam kinzinger, liz cheney. >> other that, not many. a look at other news making headlines this morning. ahead of a d.c. rally this weekend in support of the january 6th insurrectionists, capitol police asked the defense department to provide sport from the national guard, should the need arise. that request came just hours before workers began installing a fence around the u.s. capitol on saturday, once the fencing

installation is complete, vehicle access will be limited to congress and staff. homeland security department official saying earlier this week the rally is expected to draw about 700 people. 1 in 500 americans has died of covid-19 since the start of the pandemic according to an nbc news tally. there have been more than 670,000 deaths from coronavirus in the united states. over the past week, the u.s. had an average of more than 152,000 new infections each day. so far about 54% of the u.s. population is fully vaccinated. about 63% have received at least one dose. and four top american gymnasts including olympian simone biles told congress yesterday that federal law enforcement and gymnastics officials turned a

blind eye to team doctor larry nassar's sexual abuse. nbc news correspondent anne thompson was in the hearing room and has the details. >> to be clear, i blame larry nassar and i also blame -- an entire system that enabled and perpetrated his abuse. >> reporter: simone biles and her three fellow gymnasts told the committee in words searing and emotional how adults failed them, ignoring more than a year their claims of sexual abuse by team usa doctor larry nassar. >> i don't want another young gymnast olympic athlete or any individual to experience the horror that i and hundreds of others endured before, during and continuing to this day in the wake -- of the larry nassar abuse. >> reporter: the women

particularly blamed the fbi. mckayla maroney testified in 2015 she told and agent what nassar did to her in excruciating detail before she told her mother. >> i began crying at the memory over the phone and there was just dead silence. i was so shocked at the agent's silence and disregard for my trauma, after that minute of silence he asked, "is that all?" >> reporter: the fbi didn't officially open an investigation until nearly a year after it first learned of the allegations. >> the fbi made me feel like my i bus didn't count and it wasn't a big deal. >> reporter: aly says how this haunts her. abused at least 70 gymnasts after the fbi was first told. >> it was like serving innocent children up to a pedophile on a silver platter. >> i'm deeply and profoundly sorry -- >> reporter: the fbi director christopher wray who did not leave the bureau at the time told the committee the two who

lied about their actions are no longer with the bureau. one took retirement. the other was fired. he added reforms are already under way. >> we want to take the pain that occurred here and use it as a catalyst to teach people the importance of doing the work in the right way. >> reporter: but maggie nichols and her fellow gymnasts want more. >> maggie what is justice? >> i think justice is holding those accountable who failed us continuously and continue to fail us, and those who didn't protect us throughout our gymnastics career and throughout our childhood. >> reporter: until someone can answer the question simone biles asked -- >> how much is a little girl worth? >> this was incredible. i watched everything, and these women, these incredible young women, who were put in this horrible situation were also, you know, being forced to

perform at top level in front of huge crowds while all of this was going on and can you imagine a young woman calls the fbi asking for help. describing the worst kind of abuse you could ever imagine and he asks, is that all? let me just say, it takes six months at times for them to even get a response. do you know how many other young girls were abused during that time? it took over a year for anything to happen. do you know how many children were abused? and that's what haunts these young women. that they feel like they should have done more, and what was even more sort of frustrating and appalling to hear is that the organization that was really kind of in place to have oversight, over situations like this, is compromised because it works for u.s. gymnastics and these young woman could see that, but nobody else could? like they were left on their own to be tortured.

truly tortured. they've been through a lot of therapy. they've been through a lot, but i just wonder, you know, at this point. the fbi has a lot to speak for in terms of why they didn't act quickly and also, eddie, can you imagine, like, your daughter or, joe, any of us, having our daughter brought into a hotel room and interviewed by the fbi, maybe one female agent, but not really directly involved. i mean? just everything about this seems like it happened -- you know, in the dark ages. >> i can't imagine. my anger would be -- >> i'm still furious. >> right. put it this way. 70 more young girls were molested, because of the failure of the fbi to act when these young women stepped forward, and so the question that needs to be asked to them, mika, is, is this all? is this all you're going to do? just apologize? is that all? we need more. we need more.

>> the fbi is what was at issue yesterday, but if you go back to the beginning of this, and the institutional failure around these girls. >> safe sports. >> a couple of decades. worked in michigan state university first then usa gymnastics. 150 women who came forward and said they were sexually abused by him under the guise of medical treatment. how does that go on for 20 years? inside any institution, and nothing happened about it? and by the way, it's not like the girls and the women weren't reporting it and telling people. somehow there's a culture of protection around these predators. we've seen it in other places like penn state, ohio state. it's a sickness. you just feel terrible that all of these girls all of these women went through this and they have to live with that trauma through all of their success. there's the great simone biles standing there with all of her gold medals and still this is what she carries with her every day. >> absolutely. we'll be following this. coming up, congressman sean patrick maloney says democrats need to make a major change if

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♪♪ all right. >> he's okay. can't get him to stop talking and i'm not talking about joe this time. >> interesting. >> can you believe this? >> so baseball. fill it in quickly. still tied. >> and then -- talking. >> the blue jays. >> yeah. >> and the yankees and the red sox are tied still for that wild card position. yankees you know -- so i did something last night, willie. i'm ashamed of myself. >> uh-huh. >> again? >> i went with the pitcher in the eighth inning. >> cursing a lot. >> got a no-hitter's we have

this barnicle and lemire and joey and lupica, all in this red sox 1946 clubhouse text and i text end of eighth inning. hey! the orioles just went ahead. >> barnicle immediately jinxed this, idiot, you did. >> and i get this thing. when people do that i call them mr. america's up in, of new canaan came into our house watching the world cup. with about two minutes left, he goes, i can't believe we're going to beat portugal. i said, get out of my house! you have jinxed us. sure enough, it's a jinx. that happened last night with yankees and orioles. >> a bloop single to win the game and boy, did we need it. so we have to win, "we" yankees now. because coming up next week once we leave baltimore, play the rarngs. three at fenway. three in toronto and finish the season with three against the

rays. a brutal last week and a half and gets easier for the red sox. >> a brutal schedule. the red sox, not that it means anything's we have an easier schedule. we're -- we're now -- we've got the orioles for three and then the mets for two at home. three with the yankees at home, but then finish up with the orioles again and the nationals. that's -- with a lot of off days. seems like, jonathan lemire, haven't had many off days, so, of course, we, as we've said 142 times this year, last night was the most important game of the year. but it was. and we ended up pulling it out at the end. yeah. very tough. >> joe, you and i deemed opening day the most important day of the year. >> it was. >> only harder since then. the red sox first series win in seattle since 2013. that's a house of horrors for the sox on the west coast. got a win. won in extra innings. two out of three there. the schedule is softer.

i hope, joe, for all of our sakes were we to miss the playoffs by -- i hope we don't miss the playoffs by just one game, because that one game yankees win last night that you gave them. you put them on a silver platter and said, new york yankese, you can have this one in baltimore. all yours, that's on you, joe. >> go to yankees stadium a black of ruth, garrick and mantel and then me, sheer stupidity. jinxing the red sox, 2021. go back to toronto, man. toronto's great. >> nope. don't go back. >> let's talk. let's talk for mika about the four, five and six hitters for the blue jays. i mean, seriously? and tough up the middle. just these guys -- just -- keep -- winning! >> they're very good, mika. very good. >> i see that. that's exciting. >> mika's giving a death stare. i'm going to step back. >> these guys are like

secretariat at the belmont. >> where is mike barnicle? he keeps butt dialing. >> he's really angry at me because last night after i said -- >> does he know how to turn his phone off? i mean, just stop -- just turn your phone off. joining us now the chairman of the -- >> we love -- so hateful. why do you hate when loving would be so much easier? >> no. it's so, like -- my brother does it as well. a lot of butt dials. >> so much easier? >> no. turn off your phone or lock it and do, a little code. like 1111. it's easy. then you open it. >> and congressman, ran out of time. thanks for being here. >> and mike barnicle in butt in the say the sentence. >> where is my barnicle? did he oversleep? where is he? >> i don't think he's supposed to be on. >> always supposed to be on. >> not today, dear. >> why not? okay. we're changing that. >> willie, at 2:30 in the morning. >> needs to be on every day. >> curating the list.

>> i'll fix that. >> are we ever getting to the news? sean patrick maloney is here. talks a lot. also with us historian, the american presidency vanderbilt university jon meacham. "new york times" best-selling book "his truth is marching on: john lewis and the power of hope." love that. eddie glaude is still with us. >> jon, one year later, the paperback book out. this was, of course, the "new york times" runaway best-seller. because it told an extraordinary story, an extraordinary way. one year later, the paper book's out and we think the democrats may be moving towards passing hr4, john lewis' bill, but where are we today a year later after your book first came out? >> thanks. you know, as you know, because you served with him.

john lewis was always about forward movement. he believed in the gospel. he believed in the country. despite the veracity of the troops waiting for him at the foot of that bridge, and he would have absolutely continued to press forward. my own guess is that he would see this really insidious development that, i hate to admit it. i totally lacked imagination to see, which is this push in the states to create a culture, and ethos, in which you just decertify what you don't like. >> hmm. >> you just change the rules. and, joe, you and i know from southern politics that the old way to become governor was to run for attorney general. now the way to get ahead in a republican politics is to become the secretary of state, and the

secretary of state is in charge of elections. and this notion that, if you don't like reality, you fall back on this deeply un-american, deeply authoritarian impulse to just say, no. that's not the way the people voted. that's not legitimate. and it's what the 6th was about and it's heartbreaking to say, but it's what your former party is largely about now. >> hmm. >> and if you don't -- if we don't say it, you know -- i'm not a democrat. i'm not a republican. i used to vote for both, but i'm not going to vote for the republicans until there's a massive sanity infusion, and a re-engagement with the constitution itself. and i think what john lewis would be saying is, we have a duty to a higher justice. we have a duty to see each other not as enemies but as neighbors,

and you treat your neighbors as neighbors, because that's the way you want to be treated. if you don't want your vote counted, the best way to do it is to try to not count somebody else's. >> how bitterly ironic when john lewis was marching across the edmund pettus bridge he was marching as a minority. minority population. against the majoritarian rule, and got beaten up for it, and here we are in 2021 where people are trying to pass john lewis' voting rights bill that majority of americans would support, and his party, the democratic party, is running against a party now who is not in the majority. who wants to govern the united states, moving into the future, in undemocratic ways. if they can't win elections, they will steal elections and we all talk about the obstacles to

voting that -- that republicans across the country have set up. jon, you're right. that's -- that's not the dangerous part. the most dangerous part is that they're now giving secretaries of states, now given state legislatures the to desert my v pick the votes they want picked. if they want to go into fulton county or other counties where there are more black voters than white voters and try to desertify those votes that's what's happening across the country. you talk about being in the minority, republicans in the minority now, 77% of americans say they don't want roe v. wade overturn, it's been that way pretty consistently over the decades, what do they do? they overturn roe v. wade in the

state of texas through procedure and five justices let them do that. the hell the 77%. 30% are going to rule in texas. on the other side of that, you take mandates for masks, vaccines, that's a 70/30 proposition, and what's happening there, they're the 30%. so, again, the minority wants to run over the majority and disrupt schools, disrupt education, disrupt learning, disrupt small business owners, disrupt entrepreneurs who want to build, create jobs, want to expand their communities, disrupt churches, disrupt synagogues. because of what they read on qanon or on facebook. they're the 30%, 35%. on the other side of the edmund pettis bridge and they're the

minority they just decided they're going to cheat to win. >> the element of two americas. one side believes that america must look a certain way, must have a certain set of commitments that are consistent with their religious beliefs, and i'm not sure how we bridge this divide and this takes me to jon and i'm looking forward to seeing you this weekend in chattanooga and we can talk about this more broadly, but when we think the attack on voting rights, the red herring of critical race theory the statue of robert e. lee coming down in virginia, where are we given john lewis sacrifice? where do you see the country in this moment, in this moment that seems to be cascading crises? >> it's a great phrase, eddie.

to commemorate a victim of lynching more than a hundred years ago that chattanooga is finally coming to terms with in an interesting moment of reconciliation. i think -- i like you i suspect sort of depends on what half hour you ask me, on, you know, 4:30 i might think, my god, we're dealing with this institutionalize white supremacist, ill liberal, un-american ultimately in the idealistic sense because at our best we are about possibility, we don't always realize it but that's what we're supposed to be about and joe biden is president, by the way, 81 million people to 74 million people said we don't want four

more years of that. the terrifying thing 74 million said yes, sign me up. my strong sense is that the work we have to do is to tell these stories, not because they're radical stories but because they're american stories. >> it's interesting that eddie brought his dog to 30 rock. >> are you allowed to do that? >> i think that's meacham's dog? >> comfort dog. >> thanks. >> what's his name. >> what's your dog's name? >> that would be clementine meacham. she's a therapy dog for troubled wasps. >> coming up on friday, make sure you're there.

>> his truth is marching on, john lewis and the power of hope is available in paperback. >> it's a great book. thank you so much for being with us. we appreciate it. congressman, first, let's talk about california, because it's one of these things where, you know, a cia operative professional will tell you that their greatest successes are the successes that nobody recognizes, the bomb doesn't go off, the political bomb didn't go off, it's california, nothing to see here, move along, i'm not so sure, i think there's some things to read out of that that republicans should be concerned about, in the deepest, darkest bluest state. >> amen. you know, they're going to talk about election fraud or something else. the fact is, we won, they lost.

people show up at polls or not. this was a good test of biden versus trump, of newsome versus elder. red team versus blue team. its toxic message of lying about election. what happened? 2 to 1 we beat them. if you look at places like orange county, forget about the whole state, look at the competitive areas of that state, if i was a republican member of the caucus i'd be worried about running in a swing district on that message. >> but on the other side, isn't there stuff that could be learned that democrats need to be extremely worried about moving forward? >> always, always. >> let's talk about that. >> but -- but i think democrats spend more time bed wetting than learning. what i've learned on doing hard things you need to tell people

what you're doing, right now we're building a bridge to the future, we talked about the bridge john lewis walked over, yeah, we fight for racial justice, when they say critical race theory, we want to teach our history without politics. defund the police, we want to tell them what we're doing, we want to reform the police. you look at what's happening at the polls and where we're moving the party and more importantly what the substance is, we're laying the foundation right now for a whole generation of american prosperity that's conclusive. that's what we're going to run on. california suggests voters are going to prefer it. >> what do you learn from that race mask mandates and vaccine mandates. if you look at polling it's

minority position. parents want their kids to be safe in school. something the president has leaned into, he called for the mandate for small businesses, what do you take away from the vote? >> here's my message to democrats, own the anger. republicans are angry about that and say it's somebody else's fault. right now, there's reason that the pandemic is still going on because they undermrald it at the beginning, dragged their feet on mask wearing, and at every stage they're trying to stop the mask mandates where they make sense, we should embrace them. i want the people in the military to be safe, places in health care and other places where mask mandates absolutely make sense. in this city right now, if you want to eat in the restaurant, show vaccine card.

that's a private business. more importantly it willened end the pandemic. our policies are going to end this, this thing is going to spread it. >> republicans claim to be small government conservatives, tell an intremp neuro, tell a small business, you can't do what you have to do to keep your place safe. you can't do it. >> is that you? >> good lord, give me your phone? >> it's going to be okay. apparently i have to be on early morning tv this morning. it should have been an hour earlier. >> but let's talk about a couple of issues out of california that could have made a difference that i have heard, democrats complained about out there, a lot, the crime and the other is

homelessness. in the past democrats say, oh, we can't talk about homelessness because that's what -- wait a second, you're actually celebrating the fact that people who need help mentally are sleeping on crates at night. that's vour vision of compassion, no we need to spend more money, have places where these homeless people many times with mental health problems can get off the streets when it's 30 degrees, there's nothing liberal about letting homeless population sleep on the streets of san francisco or san diego every night. so how do you get that message to democratic candidates especially in swing districts? >> look, you know, fix that problem and when you're fixing tough problems you're not going to get it all right and there are tough balances because often

what happens you never provide the services on the other end. we criminalize the problem. we need comprehensive solutions. that's why i like what we're doing in the build back better plan. investing in our workforce, investing in our infrak struck church. countering china. the comprehensive approach we're taking, i think if we can get through the other eye wahl of this storm, we're in the middle of it, democrats need to be vote, we have laid the foundation for a whole new generation of peace and prosperity but we've got to get through the next test. >> so, congressman, let's talk about build back better, $3.5 trillion, it's gone through the committees. a lot of people in this country

who i talked to who have lost track of what's going on. where is it right now? what's the likelihood and the senate has its plan it's going make it through the congress? >> a very good chance, we're moving this forward methodically, a little coaching, i think it would be wonderful instead of doing it 2.5, 3.5, 3.1, we talk about what's in it, talk about the substance, what's going to get done is universal pre-k for every kid in the united states. a permanent child tax credit for tens of millions of kids out there and families, that's changing lives, how about cheaper child care, how about workforce training so people can fill these jobs with the infrastructure bill? that's the substance of it,

willie, true whether it's 2.7 or 2.9, this game we're playing about who won or who lost i think misses the point and that's the problem because people need to know what we're doing and democrats don't tell people what we're doing, i think this is a trap we fall into it, every republican voted against the child tax credit and that's the difference. >> the difference between nancy pelosi being speaker in 2023 and kevin mccarthy is going to come down 20, 25 moderate to conservative swing districts, how are the polls looking there, how are the battles going there, what are democrats doing there? >> look, we are the underdogs in this fight, let's be clear, they stacked the deck, they're passing all these jim crow voting laws. sooner or later kevin mccarthy is going to come up with at least one idea for the future of

america. i don't -- it doesn't surprise we're running as an underdog. what you do is you look at odds you're facing and you figure out how to win. in the most competitive districts right now, that california race a couple of nights ago really tells you how the messages are matching up when voters show up not when pollsters predict who's going to show up. if you look at our front line, our battle-tested candidates they're in competitive seats but we can win every one of them. we hold the majority and we're going to grow it. >> all right, eddie glaude is

with us. >> i'm excited about it, i'm also thinking about some of the obstacles that are in front of us, you have a debate within your caucus from progressives and moderates and we saw it just recently with regards to the drug prescription component of the reconciliation program. where you have moderate democrats concerned about jobs and you have progressive democrats concerned about climate in the southern part of the state, how do you navigate those differences in order to pass the build back better plan? >> so far if you look at the first ten months of this year, speaker pelosi has done this masterfully the truth is, both wings of the party and everybody in between has been incredibly constructive. give my progressive brothers and sisters for staying engaged in the debate. look at what we're going to

happen. raucous debate on substance and policy because we care about the solutions, we actually have opinions what substantive policies are going to work better. our debate is a family conversation, i'm from a big irish family, i expect it to be bumpy, i expect us to pull together just like we did a few weeks ago, where 100% of house democrats voted together to advance the president's plan. we're going to get the plan done, we're going to stick together, tell them we did it and remind them the other side is nuts and can't be trusted with power. >> they are nuts. >> they don't need a single republican vote here. >> look, i think nancy pelosi can count, that's what i think, and if you look at the performance over the last ten months you would never bet against her and look, we'll have

a bunch of opinions, some twisted metal and broken glass, there always is, but at the end of the day we're going to get it done. >> congressman sean patrick maloney, you can have your phone back. now to where things stand with the pandemic. let's bring in former fda commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. his new book "uncontrolled spread: why covid-19 crushed us and how we can defeat the next pandemic" is out next week. >> dr. gottlieb, lot of people trying to figure out whether to take that that third booster shot, curious, we're reading something different every day in the newspaper, what's your take? >> if the fda is meeting on friday of authorizing boosters,

it goes to the cdc the advisory committee will make the ultimate recommendation to determine whether this is broadly accessible. making a recommendation around boosters being available for older individuals, that seems to be where the data is pointing, from an additional dose, declining efficacy over time and with that third dose you see a very robust immune response, there's data from the j an j vaccine as well, a very robust response to a second dose of j&j lot of this data is coming out of israel and the uk, the evidence being collected in the u.s. is more sparse and the controversy is that for a lot of people, for a lot of public health officials they argue the original premise of this vaccine was going to prevent severe

disease and hospitalization, it seems to be holding up very well, what we've seen the more striking decline in efficacy is against infection and a lot of people would argue, well, the original premise of the vaccine to prevent symptomatic disease and hospitalizations. that's where the controversy really is. >> doctor, clarify for people who are listening and for others who want to twist this story around, the concern for getting the booster is not the health of the person getting the booster, from what you're saying, it sounds like the concern is that the shots could be used better and this might be a bit, pardon the expression, maybe a bit of

overkill, where we're giving people shots who really don't need the shots right now, is that correct? >> i think it encapsulates where the concerns are. different people have different concerns. zero sum game, i don't agree with, the reality is, we're not going to be distributing these vaccines regardless. the biden administration is going to hold on to enough vaccines to vaccinate the whole u.s. population. you don't want to administer them at least there's a public health benefit. that's why i think we're likely to fall out with an age verification, some kind of barrier with respect to age people over the age of 60, 65, will be eligible for these boosters, more substantial based

on the evidence that's going to be presented friday. >> there was a hope among people like yourself and public health experts that would lead in an increase in vaccination rates in states that are still so low, what have we learned, has it been borne out? >> yeah, look, we've seen a pickup of vaccinations over the last several weeks, i think that people who said they were waiting for the approval to happen, i was never really convinced that was going to be an inflection point. it was an inflection for businesses and other entities that wanted to mandate vaccinations, more businesses have moved forward with mandates. biden administration has stepped up their efforts to get more people vaccinated. we've seen vaccination rates

gone up they've also gone up because of the infection rates have gone up. >> so dr. gottlieb, as you look big picture, you talk about how we got here and how we can prevent the next pandemic in your book, if we sort of nudge along at the rate, a large portion of this country remains unvaccinated. kids back in school. some businesses may make mandates for vaccines. what do the next few months, or year, look like for you? >> infections are rising among kids. we're actually doing a very good job of vaccinating the adult population. if you sort of just go on a

current run rate we'll easily hit 80% of adults vaccinated. 20% of remain unvaccinated, have had the infection, after this delta wave passes, we'll see new variants, something come out in the delta lineage, but that's a longer term challenge. prevalence levels will start to decline on the back end of the delta wave. it's not trivial but we'll be able to function against that backdrop, where new york was when it had its mini delta surge this summer. i do think the northeast though is in for a delta wave of its own. >> tell us about that. delta wave passing words, what's the potential we get past the delta wave and to where we need to be as opposed to struggling

with it and headed toward other variants that could be stronger, hearing stories about children in icus in the south, icus so full that people can't find icu beds, where are we headed with the delta wave, do you think it will pass and tell us more about what you think is going to happen in the northeast. >> look, a highly regionalized pandemic from the start. the ager group cases continue to increase is among kids as they return to school unfortunately without all the mitigation steps in place, we're in for a delta surge in the north and northeast, a presums that we had a mini delta wave in the summer, lot of prior infection here in the northeast, people have had the infection, successive waves

of infection i don't think the northeast and the northern states -- at schools you'll start to see the schools become sources of community spread. pickup of infections. it's not going to look like the south, more mitigation, in terms of the long run an open question whether or not we'll see immediate variants that pierce the immunity offered by vaccination and prior infections. we'll see variants that partially escape the imimmunity that we acquired. we'll be able to engine er vaccines against it. on the back end of this delta wave, hopefully this is our last wave of virus. it becomes an endemic phase of

this virus. >> we'll speak with you on monday on your new book. we look forward to that. we'll see you monday. president biden is standing by chairman joints chief of staff mark milley after a number of republicans were outraged that he made calls to china without telling former president trump, nbc news white house correspondent kelly o'donnell has the latest. >> reporter: america's top general taking political fire, but president bide within a clear defense of army four-star mark milley, chairman of the joint chiefs. under scrutiny after explosive claims in a new book including

milley convening top officers after the january 6 insurrection to talk about new protocols. no matter what you are told, you do the proceed your, you do the process. i'm part of that process. reportedly telling the u.s. adversary, if we're going to attack, i'm going to call you ahead of time, it's not going to be a surprise. some republican officials say milley should be fired going around an elected commander in chief. >> a military leader basically ignoring the constitution deciding he's going to call an enemy of the united states and collude with them. >> if true there's a word for it and seems like treasonous activity to me. >> former trump choiz milley in

2018, last year milley apologized for this controversial event waling trump after protesters were cleared with tea gas. he slammed the milley call. >> that's treason number one. number two, it's ridiculous. >> i don't think the president is looking for guidance of members of congress while the president of the united states and members of their party fomented an insurrection. let's go to yamiche alcindor. the president has the confidence he needs in general milley. we also know the report from axios, other officials in the trump administration the defense secretary instructing his people to reach out to china through back channel, don't worry, we've

got this, so, is there any hesitation, is general milley under any threat from this administration. >> reporter: based on my conversations about this topic no wavering between the white house and their confidence in general milley, the president yesterday took a question and the specific question was, do you think general milley did the right thing? he said i have full confidence in general milley, it tells you there wasn't anything fireable in what general milley did or say. what he was doing in talking with his chinese counterpart, these were routine conversations, an extraordinary times, general milley was explaining the current american policy toward china, we were not planning to attack china, underscores people in the trump

administration, someone with questionable or concerning ideas they thought he was mentally unstable and crazy, the thing that underscored here, general milley had that january 8th conversation with house speaker nancy pelosi, and what you see here is general milley at one point, you're right, i agree with everything when speaker pelosi was calling former president trump crazy, that tells you that general milley did feel this government really needed his protection and really needed him to take these actions. it's interesting to see not only republicans for general milley to be dismissed, lieutenant colonel alexander vindman, he testified against former president trump in his first impeachment saying he was troubled by the conversation that former president had with

the president of ukraine. that this was breaking the chain of command but as you see the actual commander in chief president biden is not wavering at all. >> it's fascinating. breaking the chain of command is not following the orders of the commander in chief, that didn't happen here, a general talking to a general, we talked about it before, it's cute that republicans who are silent on 1/6 are using big words like treason. 70% of americans on one side of an issue, 30% on the other side of an issue. small businesses making decisions to keep their business safe. that's a 70/30 issue. well, republicans are on the wrong side of that issue, on

abortion it's been a divisive issue, but as far as overturning roe v. wade that's a 70/30, most americans don't want abortion overturned and that's exactly what five justices have done along with republicans in the state of texas, are you finding out in your reporting that actually there are some democrats and quite a few republicans who really think this could make a difference in 2022? >> i'm finding that and the chief question that's dominating a lot of conversations i'm having with sources is the gop going too far? they're winning some times the battles. voting rights, covid mandates, florida trying to go after local officials being anti-vaccine mandate. overall they don't have the public sentiment here, americans at the end of the day they want

to be safe and have their personal rights respected and that includes a woman's right to choose. on the issue of covid, a country where children, high number of children going into the hospital and die from covid. five conservative radio hosts die of covid while after they were against vaccine mandates. what you see here in gop is really leaning in and going as far as they can possibly to the right and clinging to donald trump, but you also see democrats saying if you want to win these battles we'll win this war, president biden and so many other democratic leaders are trying to keep people safe and the business community is behind them. a collective of ceos of some of the largest companies in the country, that are behind the idea of vaccine mandates, i think what you see here are

democrats and republicans arguing over issues that are life and death and democrats have in some ways they'll come out on top because they'll be able to prove scientifically they took the right step here while republicans are clinging to the idea they'll be able to rile up their bases and capture some of that energy from trump. >> all right, yamiche thank you so much for your reporting at the white house. eddie, it's just so strange that republicans are now, they're on this side of having governors being able to dictate how small business owners run their businesses, how family run their businesses, how entrepreneurs run their businesses, if you have a small business a small restaurant, the last thing you can afford is a story online where everybody in the community says, you know,

another covid outbreak at such and such restaurant, now people can make -- i mean, i think on business people should be able to make their own decisions. they want people to feel safe coming into their restaurants, yet you have republicans saying they have no right to make decisions to keep their small businesses, to keep their family businesses open, it's bizarre, and it's another one of these 70/30 issues, only extremists and freaks want to get in the way of family businesses being able to protect their family businesses the way they want to protect their family businesses but yet there are freaks in governor ships that are trying to do just that. >> the republican party isn't at least in my mind today isn't kind of linked to ideological

commitments, it's all grievance. >> they're owning entrepreneurs, family restaurants, that's who they are owning. >> this leads to the question, if the republican is not define by ideological commitments, what is the basis of the distinction between the republican party and the insurrectionist party then? >> well, i think you have in the senate for instance you have, you have a lot of people that have come out and been very critical. mitch mcconnell a guy that a lot of democrats don't like, to say the least, mcconnell went the wrong way on the 1/6 commission, that's deeply disturbing, he

said the right things about the insurrection from the very beginning. he attacked donald trump. i know he didn't vote the right way on impeachment for a lot of people on vaccines, could mitch mcconnell be out there any more talking about people needing the vaccine? republican senators who go along that way. i think there are degrees here, we have to, on one end of the spectrum you have people in the house for instance that are talking about civil war, that should be talking about tax cuts and less regulations and leading with that, they get the same percentage voting but instead they're talking about taking up guns and going to war against fellow americans and of course we have other extremists saying absolutely unbelievable things about 1/6, saying it was just

another day there. i think there are varying degrees. >> what's the answer? >> the answer i just gave was, you look and see, there are people who are openly calling for an insurrection against the united states. openly calling for, you know. >> the marjorie greene types. and the mcconnell type. he won't say and come out and defend american democracy when it comes to voting. >> hold on. let's make a distinction there, what you just said for mitch mcconnell he believes he came out on january the 6th and said we have had an election, joe biden won and the most important vote i can make is certifying these electoral votes.

then you can talk on the other side about voting rights and where he stands on voting rights. now, of course, we've talked about it on this show, no every terrible piece of legislation that republicans are passing should be called jim crow 2.0 because it's just not but there are varying degrees of it, you can look at how republicans, i think in 2005/2006 unanimously came together and voted for an extension of the civil rights bill, again, i don't think it's all black and white. can i be honest with you? let be honest with you. between you and me. as connie chung once said to newt gingrich's mom, i'm holding out hope. i'm the preacher. >> that's what i thought, joe. >> i know you're thinking about sneaking out i just want to keep

you until the invitation and if i can get pass this second verse of justice maybe we can find common ground. >> there you go. i understand the answer to the question. >> it's not as black and white as you'd like it to be. >> simmer down. i'm with you. i understand your question. >> we'll get you out in time to get in front of the line. >> we have a lot to get to this morning. still ahead -- new reporting on the internal memos from facebook. how a big change the company made in 2018 rewarded outrage. we'll talk to the reporter who broke that story. just a note, joe's new podcast is now live. it's amazing.

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♪♪ there's new reporting this morning from the wall street journal on facebook and why the articles that people -- that get people upset are the ones that go viral, the wall street journal reports facebook's news feed aling gorithm was overhauled to boost

interactions. the staffers warned it was having the opposite effect, making facebook mat form an angrier place, political parties were reoriented their posts through outrage. translated into success on facebook, the journal continues, data scientists worked on a number of potential changes to curve the tendency of the overwhelmed algorithm but mr. zuckerberg resisted some of the supposed fixes because he was worried about the company's other objectives making users engage more with facebook. more that's more money.

>> doesn't care what's bad for america. >> just got to get more money. >> he doesn't want to do it because he wants to make even more money. >> five bathtubs of money, he needs six. in a statement a facebook spokesman writes, certain partisan divisions in our society have been growing for many decades long before platforms like facebook even existed. >> just made it worse and led it to an insurrection. >> so that reporting is from technology reporter for the wall street journal, who also co-authored the report we discuss on yesterday's show, praept incredible report that facebook knows that instagram is toxic and extremely harmful to teenage girls. when we talk about harmful we talk about depression, anxiety,

suicidal ideation and things like that. jeff joins us now. >> we talked about it yesterday. we've seen the culture yesterday we talked about how we gave a talk at a college five years ago and the dean of students, how is everything going? we thought they would say, you know, the kids get to class late or this drug problem or that, they said, no, it's insta gram, our girls but also guys, facing anxiety, depression and suicide al ideation. that was five years ago. this study echoes what you said yesterday. pretty stunning about the internal documents. >> yes, so, i mean, exactly what

you said is this stuff can have for a certain group of users, particularly young women it can have a harmful effect, it's a really hard problem, it's imbedded into the product mechanics. they didn't study these things for a long time. it's understandable. you wouldn't assume that social media would have an obvious impact on mental health or the other pressures on teenagers. what they did, they started finding pretty ugly things, up to and including that people who told them they had thinking about harming themselves or killing themselves actually 6% of those traced that feeling directly back to instagram. >> jeff, it's willie geist, your piece yesterday and the one today are the talk of parents of teenagers across the country.

what can facebook be doing, okay, it's identified the problem as that internal research showed that you exposed yesterday, what reasonably now this is genie is out of the bottle, so many teenagers on instagram, what should facebook do? >> one of the things that's the backdrop to this is instagram is working on a platform for preteens right now, some questions about that at the moment, but aside from that, some of the internal research suggested that they should refrain from certain type of content. like beauty and fashion, these are things that tended to be correlated with sort of the bad feelings that, you know, company's own research could affect young women's sense of themselves. >> we talked about this, mikaa teenage girl going online i need

to look like that, though abs, white teeth, presented through filters, they don't realize that, lot of houses, vacations are paid for by someone else, it's -- >> these young influencers who are impacting these young girls they're getting feedback, they're getting free clothes, they're getting free stuff, i mean, facebook has an age limit, right, 18, is it, jeff? >> you have to be 13 on the platform. >> instagram? >> 13 for both of them. >> i have family members who put on, who have been put on instagram well before the age of 13 and they're scrolling through, you know, 17, 18, the kardashians, whatever it is, tiny waists and implants, this is -- when i was growing up,

we'd see "seventeen" magazine, but this is -- these girls, these kids are on this platform through the night. on their phones. it's a complete sort of immersing in a very unhealthy outlook about one's self. >> this is the something the company found that's somewhat valid, there were addictive traits, they found that actually the young women who were most prone to serious mental health effects also had the hardest time putting their phones down and getting off the platform. self-control. a really hard problem to address and pretty core to the product. the head of instagram actually told a podcast last night vox that he likened social media to cars, he said clearly made the world a better place although

they sometimes had negative effects, but net it was a win. an interesting analogy in part because cars have many decades-long history of the industry getting dragged into washington repeatedly over safety issues and of extremely close inspection of their products, right, and right now, we're not in a place where outsiders have that level of insight, even government or academics, so facebook has sort of presented this as it's not really a big deal obviously their own research finds this stuff is more -- >> there are speed limits and seat belt laws to regulate that stuff. i want to go back to your piece

today. when the staffers went to mark zuckerberg and the leadership at facebook, having the opposite effect making people more angry, people are gathering in small groups, groups that led to january 6 for example, what did mark zuckerberg say, what was his level of concern of facebook becoming an angrier place? >> an interesting thing about this is that facebook sort of voyage of self-discovery has been going on the last few years they've been studying their own effects and in this particular instance basically by presenting content to people based on engagement they found they were actually turning up the heat in terms of political discourse, social discourse in general. in fact, political parties around the world and news publishers had kind of caught on to this and were changing what they did to sort of maximize their appeal on the platform and

that usually meant being angrier, being more hostile, and so this is something that they kind of realized after they rolled this out and i i think the really interesting thing is, the company seemed to bought at rolling it back because it was good for metrics they wanted to promote and something bl -- look as you mentioned earlier, money, whether it's total faith in the product, mark zuckerberg really does not like things that take away from facebook usage and perhaps detract from the product there's the sense that more facebook is more good, as a result of that i think the company hasn't asked itself a lot of tough questions. >> zuckerberg, jeff, we could talk about tobacco companies,

facebook lines up with tobacco companies they know the harm they're causing but yet they're pushing forward even more, they're trying to sell their brand of cigarettes to preteens you could talk about other companies, we talked about car companies, there you had entire boards, you had power that was dispersed and in this case, we heard about russians influencing the 2016 election and you have zuckerberg and sheryl sandberg yelling at people trying to bring that to the board and at the end of the day it's zukerberg who makes decisions. so many employees complaining about one issue or another, they mrand about the changes in the

algorithm -- zuckerberg has no board that checks him, no congressman checks him, no senator checks him, no regulator checks him, i don't know if there's ever been a corporation, one person at least in my lifetime that has this much power while he's undermining american democracy, he's making our country a sicker place during the pandemic, he's making our teenage daughters and their friends less healthy, more depressed and more anxious and nobody's checking him. >> it is, i think, something that facebook should be credited for that we haven't mentioned for, they're doing the research at this point but as you note it's not clear the research is making it out or necessarily changing the course of the company and i think there's a long history in american

industry of companies realizing their products aren't great for the people who use them and sometimes you can fix that and sometimes you can't and sometimes you need to go back to the drawing board and do things really different. what's unclear as you note given the company's leadership is sort of what the impetus is going to be for that sort of rethinking, because it does seem that the company is very comfortable in the idea that's a net positive for us all. >> all right, technology reporter for the wall street journal, jeff horowitz, thank you so much. please come back. we really appreciate your incredible reporting. >> one final thing on the parallel thing, willie, you talked about car companies, they fought against seat belts, congress held them accountable. congress is not holding facebook accountable. they fought against airbags

congress actually passed laws. we actually had leaders at one time in washington, d.c., that would hold the richest and the most powerful corporate leaders to account. and that saved so many millions of lives but yet nobody in washington, d.c., will stand up to mark zuckerberg and sheryl sandberg. i don't know what the biden white house is doing about it. as far as issues like this this guy is unaccountable to anyone, he's not accountable to his board, he's not accountable to congress, they're obviously scared of him. they're obviously paying a lot of people off because they've got daughters. they saw what happened on january the 6th. they've seen plandemic on

facebook. they understand that fauci's life is in danger because of the lies that mark zuckerberg makes off the conspiracy theories he churns up whetherup, whether itt covid, whether it's about fauci, whether it's about january the 6th. >> yeah, there is a group of senators, richard blumenthal and marsha blackburn, mark zuckerberg said this when confronted about the impact of facebook and instagram on teenagers, the research we've seen is using social apps connecting with have positive mental health benefits. sort of eluding the point here. but the question is, what is the regulation? what is the legislative act? what is -- what can the white house do to stop what is really

a cultural trend of young girls, in particular, boys, too, but particularly young girls looking on social media at what they're supposed to be and thinking in their hearts they are falling sort of that and they can't attain what they're seeing. it's everywhere. so what's the law that stops that? >> it's not amore fuss. there are studies that have shown this, predicted this. the "wall street journal" has been writing articles for years. we are about to have an expert on who will say there is a direct link between what they're doing and depression and anxiety and suicidal ideations. just like there is a direct link between not having seatbelts. they need to get experts in there. they have to tell mark zuckerberg he has to start valuing people's lives over the millions of dollars he makes. >> for more on the impact, let's

bring in a psychiatrist, an assistant professor of psychiatry at harvard medical school and director of the three east unit at mcclain hospital. doctor, i want to ask? if you are seeing anything reflected in the "wall street journal" report about instagram and its impact on young girls in the work you are doing. i wonder how you treat an anxious, depressed teen boy or girl, especially a girl, they leave and they're right back on instagram. so all the work that's been done through the fight, they're scrolling on instagram. it kind of seems to me like almost an impossible task to try to help someone with these problems if the addiction is right there on their phone 24/seven? >> yeah. no, certainly, it's such an important topic. one of the things that i have seen which is different from

when i started psychiatry is the number of young girls wanting plastic surgery, which is very new. and then the number of times we have seen psychiatric crisis precipitated by something that happened in social media, people excluded from going to a party. people not going on vacations, stuff like that. so what we see, we see this precipitation of the psychiatric crisis, whether it's severe anxiety or depression. desperation from parents and then, you know, kids often being put on medications, which doesn't really answer the problem. and so you know, there were warnings on my can of shaving cream than on instagram. so why don't we have warnings that we have everywhere else on instagram. i have a problem with the analogy with the car. because here's the thing is that

we don't allow 13-year-olds to drive. we also happen to have 40 hours of driving instruction before you get them behind the wheel of a car. i think there has to be a role for education with some of these platforms. >> and do you notice that people that you work with, other fellow psychologists and psychiatrists all are dealing with not just their patience but the impact of instagram on their patients? >> no, absolutely. i mean, you know, it's sort of interesting, you know, the influencers are fabulous looking people like you guys. i mean, some people who are going to sell much of a product of anything and so you know these are people who join us with the genetic lottery that you know it doesn't matter how many creams you use and all of these sorts of things, you are probably fought going to look the way that some of these people look some we're selling

an idea that is very, very superficial to especially young women. of course, we do see a turn in boys as well. mostly in young women. and it's, we call a a social network. it's anti-social, it's disconnected people we want more connected from their peer group. >> i look at, i have a lot of girls, but they follow just because your daughter is going to be in this world, they follow the kardashians, people who have four-inch waists and have had their ribs removed. they've had implants to make them look more. i mean, this is not just in a magazine they pick up two minutes during the day. it is constant on their phone, new things, new clothe, new outfits, new things the kardashians have done. i hate to if cuss on just the

kardashians because there so many other influencers with these completely unrealistic looks that have been surgically created or enhanced by the editing. these little girls, their brains don't have the understanding, the context, the nuance, the feeling about what really causes joy in life as opposed to this stuff, that constantly they scroll through. >> that's why our job as parents is more important than ever, to remind them what's important. >> i bet they don't let their kids on instagram. >> you are probably right. doctor, what is your advice to parents. you can see this is personal to a lot of people watching with teenage girls. they might say, this is the way the world is going, mom and dad. what do you say to those families? how should we talk to our kids about this. >> it's interesting. i think there is a difference generally speaking, i don't want to be black and white about this between boys and girls. boys tend to post sporting

events or some sort of entertainment. i tend to post really bad jokes, which people don't generally love. but girls tend to post image and so here's the thing is that if we are going to insist it's going to be a part of the world, that people are on these social media platforms. i think we should a have a curriculum in school that really addresses this, in the same way you have to do 40 hours of driving instruction. you should have 40 hours of social media instruction. i think you have to have a discussion and this is what i say too the kids that i have worked with. that's, okay. you started with maybe you are feeling okay. maybe you are feeling not so good. go on your social media, what happens straight after? how do you feel straight after? if you feel more opened, engaged, happy yes, count on dock it future feel more shut down, more anxious and depressed. stop doing it. have that discussion with your kids. let them pay attention to how

they feel once they're engaged with the platform. >> all right. co-author of the best selling book dbt for dummies, thank you very much for be pentagon on the show the morning. >> him coming up -- >> really quickly, at the bottom we were showing one in three teenage girls feel worse about themselves having worse image of themselves because of instagram and the source of that? instagram's parent company facebook. >> all right. >> that's them saying one in three girls feel worse about themselves and have a worse image about themselves and are driven to self hatred because of their product, their internal documents, not anybody else's, that's what they're saying. coming up, the united states enters into a new historic security pact with the united kingdom and australia. one that appears to be aimed at

countering china. we'll look into that strategic move and explain why the french are upset. plus the emotional testimony from top u.s. gymnasts accusing the fbi of turn ac mind eye to the years of abuse they endured within usa gymnastics. "morning joe" is coming back in one minute.

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once again we look at the top of the comcast building, willie. >> it is comcast, so is mika's penthouse up there where she has been living like over the years with the bottles all around. >> what? >> and she's been living there. >> a bad idea. >> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." >> wait, i'm talking to willie. >> i see that. >> i'm talking to my friend, willie. >> you ought to see him more than once a week so you guys get used to talking to each other. >> we can talk like a 42nd delay. >> the first time in ten years. >> hello, joe, how are you? >> all right. >> i am doing fine, thank you. >> live from the international space station. >> exactly. so anyway, we got together,

willie and i get together. we have an editorial at what 2:30? 2:35? >> we go for a run. >> go for a run. >> captain mark. >> they push each other. >> it's an issue. we go, how are we going to set this show up? so we decided to go really, really salacious. >> we will lean into the tabloids. we know it sells. we know it clicks. we know what the people want. >> we are doing kincaid's met gala? >> kind of like that. really close to that. you know, willie, remember that famous warning? it was so long ago when paris hilton get out of prison. >> no, i don't remember. >> i am still struck, you know, we were talking about what a fine wholesome girl she was. she'd come in. get her time.

>> i don't think our viewers remember that. >> so that's what we will lead with this morning. >> it's thursday, september 16th. >> really salacious, right? >> tabloid all the way. what do you have? >> a professor of princeton, joining us. >> how are you doing. >> really wonderful. >> your parents have probably the same thing. >> how is school going? >> it started up the first time you have been in there since ot '7. the kids are back in. >> it's going well. yesterday i was in precept, our little sections, students coughing. and you could see the students and myself, everybody tensed up. you know, so it's, we have a wonderful regime. >> it's nerve we'll be right backing, that's me.

i'm a sneezeer from way back. that works out really well on planes. >> mika makes me quadruple mask. can i ask you something, professor, there was a debate on twig, the twitter machine a couple weeks back. who was it? dan dresdner, somebody said, hey, students coming in, don't call your professors like steve, mary, bob. he said, you know properly call them professor so-and-so a lot of kids got really upset about that. do they call you? i'm just saying, kids, call them professor. okay. maybe you're friends on the twitter machines, you can call them bob or mary, don't do that, do they call you professor clout or come up and go, eddie? what's going on? >> no, they don't call me eddie.

no some of my graduate students do though, they're adults and working, but, no. >> okay. see, that's good to know. >> we settled that. >> that's tradition. >> one of my favorite madeleine albright story, they called him dr. brezynski and she finished her doctor rat and she got on the plane and they were both flying from colombia down to d.c. she's walking back, she goes, hi, spi gvmt that's appropriate. >> no, he asked for it. >> all right. the funny thing is, mika called him dr. brezynski, too. as in alex. >> there are some people i call mr. or mrs. or doctor even though it's 40 years later, i can't help myself. a white house reporter from the associated press jonathan le mere is way up too early with us and with us now. let's get to the news. it's not that salacious.

>> here's the payoff. >> did you set up? >> waiting five minutes. >> and the punch line. >> not that salacious. president joe biden announced a security partnership with the united kingdom and australia yesterday. in an effort to counter china's rising power. kind of a chess move. a senior administration official described the pact has tisr historic and said it would increase cooperation among the three nations on military defense, cyber threats and supply chain security in the indo pacific region. as a part of the agreement, the u.s. plans to share its nuclear submarine technology with australia, a handful of countries, including china and russia have nuclear powered submarines, biden said the u.s. will work with australia over the next 18 months to determine every element of the nuclear public marine acquisition process, including the safe production and use of the subs.

the move wasn't aimed at any one country. >> other than china. it's like everybody but china especially. >> bind has pointed to china as one of the biggest national security threats facing the u.s. it comes in stark contrast to the previous administration's relationship with one of america's staunchest alike which was at times contentious in a phone call between newly-elected president trump he blasted the leader over a refugee agreement and boasted about the magnitude of his electoral college win before abruptly ending the call more than 35 minutes early. >> so this is interesting. the administration, jonathan le mere, i was horrified by what our allies thought of us. australias a always been one of our closest allies. we had a refuse relationship with them for a good part of the

administration despite the fact they were side-by-side. this is significant news for people just waking up, it's sophisticate news. because, obviously, china has been dominating events, militarizing the best china sea and this is a good example of the united states and australia saying together, yeah, we got an island, too, it's called australia. >> it's a big one. >> and this is a really significant move for the 21st century. i didn't know it was coming. talk about the background and the implications of it. >> significant and indeed salacious, joe, the number of times page 6 led with an actual on australian submarines, i lost count.

>> this is going to be probably on the front. what's the headline? >> just before ben and j. lo. >> it's benifer. >> nukes and australia. >> and one strategy of secrecy, these talks will go on some time behind the scenes in the capital and australia, it was as advised by the white house saying they have a national security initiative and didn't get into it until later in the day. everything then was strictly embargoed. the word china was not mentioned by bind. he stood at the white house playing by the prime ministers of the uk and australia. they made clear these submarines extraordinarily expensive and they had nuclear power. all three leaders made sure to hit that note. it is about projecting strength to counteract china's growing influence. we know from day one of this

administration, joe biden has painted china as the economic rival for the united states in this century and that this is a step to counter the geostrategic advantage there. china has slowly tried to grow its influence in the south china sea, picking up more territory, alarming their asian neighbors. australia, joe to your point is someone the u.s. prioritized that relationship with. they will be meeting next week, the u.s. has other allies between japan and korea, strengthening those ties. it comes when president xi of china has been reluctant to meet with president biden despite efforts to do so at a summit next month. i should know one last thing, not everyone is in favor of this deal beyond the chinese, the french. france made it very clear they are unhappy to be left out of this agreement. >> they are furious it. they made a public statement, saying, why do you cut us out of the deal? we were down the road for

something like this but if there is any question, look at the response, the chinese government came out immediately saying this is cold war thinking this is a mistake. the united states shouldn't be doing this. we showed has gone out of its way to suggest it's not about that, it's about nuclear propulsion. >> exactly. >> meanwhile, they haven't shared this with the united states and any other country, they are clearly directed at china, china knows it well. >> into the scene around october you are upset that we are putting nuclear subs if australia? what? it was directed at luxembourg. >> jet propulsion smr just propulsion. no, i mean, you look historically at where we are with china and i say it time and again, we need to look at the chinese as potential allies, at the chinese as partners. we will fought get much done without china that said, you

look at what she has been saying over the past month or so you look at the actions over the past year not only have they moved away from being a more market-oriented xhirk look at what they're doing in hong kong and all across the region. you look at xi's own speeches over the past month or so where he's talking like a cold warrior. they that appears to be the -- you believe your people have to get tough and ready for a showdown with the united states. okay. we can do that, too. so there is no denying if xi continues in this direction, we are unfortunately moving towards a cold war and in that situation australia now finds itself in the position that well, west germany was during the actual cold war. and so suddenly our most

important allies here, japan, south korea and australia, who again we treated very badly over the past four, five years. >> this is precisely one of the points that biden made justifying the world of afghanistan. we don't want to be mired while the world is moving toward china. this is the new world. this is who we need to be confronting in ways like we are seeing this morning. >> for ne as someone who is not really invested in kind of the projection of u.s. power in this way, i am kind of nervous. one thing i don't want is a cold war. i the dynamics. we have the situation in afghanistan. but if light of the disaster of trumpism, this makes all the sense in the world to me. i think that's very clear to us. >> speaking of china, we'll dig that the developments over the new reporting that america's top

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. the white house is defending chairman of the joins chief of staff mark milley against calls from some republicans to charge him with treason. >> what idiots. >> i have great confidence in general milley. >> i don't think the president is looking for guidance of members of congress who stood by while the president of the united states and the leader of

their paermt fermented an insurrection and that counts them sigh lnt. >> that counts them out with the word credible. >> it does apply to several people in washington. >> it sure does. >> general milley is one of the last. >> treason is a word that can be used in washington these days. general milley has come under criticism after details surfaced of two phone calls he made to a chinese general late last year without former president trump's knowledge. the calls were reportedly meant to reassure beijing that efforts were in place to prevent the outgoing president from potentially ordering a missile strike against china. those revelations are outlined in an upcoming book by washington post reporters bob woodward and robert costa. in a statement, the joint chiefs of staff wrote, general milley regularly communicates with the

chiefs of defense across the world, including china and russia. these conversations remain vital to improving neutral understanding of u.s. national security interests, reducing tensions, providing clarity and avoiding unintended consequences or conflict. >> we explained how this happened during the nixon administration 1973. >> it's not perfect. >> 1974, kissinger had to step in at one point when nixon was doing really badly during the 1973 arab-israeli war and tell the prime minister of great britain that nixon couldn't talk, that he was busy. it's also happened time and again when you can talk about when nixon was president, there were assurances going from that administration to leaders across the world. everything is fine. so after january the 6th, this is something that had to be

done. something and i would want my generals. i would want others, whether it was donald trump, richard nixon or woodrow wilson to say everything is fine. these people are accused of treason for calling up the chinese and saying, hey, everything is fine. this is democracy, it's mess articles of impeachment don't take advantage of us. if you do, you will feel sorry. you will not have the excuse to say they were about to attack us. i'm here to say, we're not going to attack you. so that's what i want to do. that's what america wants their generals to do. why don't we just admit it? they're little snowflakes that melted when general milley went to the hill and actually said he read a book on critical race. they melted. these snowflakes so delicate.

so pure. their mothers told them and their fathers told them, every one of you is separate and different. there is no one snowflake like:00 yet all these snowflakes under a republican sign, they were all melting because general milley said the words critical race theory and said, yeah, i read about it. it's good to know that. a read about it. and they still, they're still in a freakout mode. here this guy takes steps to defend america to let china know, we're just fine, don't take advantage of this situation. now they're saying he is treasonous. that helps me, i was baffled. >> that's what they're running on next year. once he did that, he stepped from their tribe to another

tribe and the snowflakes, all separate, mind you, started melting. i didn't understand this. i didn't know what was motivating it. i would abstract. do they have a conception of executive power even a general can't intervene, the folks around him who are ahead of the executive branch can't secure the information is commander-in-chief holds the information. they weren't around the table. donald trump didn't say, hey, let's bomb china. i'm not going to do that. hey, listen, don't take advantage of the united states. don't even think about it. if you do, you'll be sorry so what's really intervening? and they're melting down. >> coming up, a look at the stories making headlines, cluling that harrowing testimony yesterday from the nation's most celebrated gymnasts about the fbi's failure to investigate

sexual abuse. that's ahead on "morning joe."

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. four top american gymnasts including olympian simone biles told congress yesterday that federal law enforcement and gymnastics officials turned that mind eye to team dr. larry nassar's sexual abuse. nbc news correspondent anne thompson was in the hearing room and has the details. >> to be clear, i blame larry nassar and i also blame an entire system that enabled and perpetrated his abuse? >> reporter: simone biles and her three fellow gymnasts, adults failed them. for more than a year claims of sexual abuse by team usa dr. larry nassar. >> i don't want another gymnast, olympic athlete or individual to

experience the horror that i and hundreds of others have endured before, during and continuing to this day in the wake of the larry nassar abuse. >> reporter: the women particularly blame the fbi. michaela marrone says she told an agent in excruciatingly detail before she told her mother. >> i began crying over the memory on the phone and there was dead silence. was so shocked in the agent's silence, he asked, is that all? >> the fbi didn't officially open an investigation until nearly a year after it first learned of the allegation. >> the fbi made me feel like my abuse didn't count and it wasn't a big deal. >> reporter: aly raisman says the bureau's actions haunts her. nassar abused 70 gymnasts after

being told. >> it was like serving gymnasts up on a silver platter to a ped dial. >> reporter: the fbi director christopher wray who did not lead the bureau at the time told the two agents are no longer with the bureau. one took retirement, the other was fired. he added reforms are already under way. >> we want to take the pain that occurred here and use it as a catalyst to teach people the importance of doing the work in the right way. >> reporter: but maggie nichols and fellow gymnasts want more. >> what is justice? >> i think justice is holding those accountable and continue to protect us throughout our gymnastics career and childhood. >> until someone can answer the question simone biles asked. >> how much is a little girl

worth? >> all right. this was incredible, i watched everything and these women, these incredible young women who were put in this horrible situation were also, you know, being forced to perform at top level in front of huge crowds while all this was going on, can you imagine a young woman calls the fbi asking for help describing the worst kind of abuse you can imagine. he asks, is that all? let me say it takes six months at times for them to even get a response. do you know how many other young girlsch were abused during that time? it took over a year before anything happened. that's what haunts these young women they feel they should have done more and what was even more sort of frustrating and appalling to hear is that the

organization that was really in place to have oversight over situations like this is compromised because it works for u.s. gymnastics and these young women could see that. but nobody else could. it's like they were just left on their own to be truly tortured. they have been through a lot of therapy. they have been through a lot. but i just wonder you know at this point, the fbi has a lot to speak for in terms of why they didn't act quickly. you can imagine like your daughter or any of us having our daughter brought into a hotel room and the fbi, maybe one female agent, fought directly involved. everything about this seems like it happened in the dark ages. >> i can't imagine. my anger would be -- >> i'm furious. >> let's put it this way, 70 more young girls were molested

because of the failure of the fbi to act. no one stepped forward. >> yeah. >> so the question that needs to be asked to them, mika. is this all? >> right. >> is this all you can going to do? apologize? we need more. coming up, the war for the soul of the navy seals. new book says that elite group of special forces drifted off course after 9 already 11, the impacts were devastating. we'll talk to the pulitzer prize-winning reporter behind that new book just ahead on "morning joe." . ew book just ahead on "morning joe."

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welcome back to "morning joe." 8:37 in the nation's capitol here on the east coast. 8,000 refugees soon will be resettled if states across the country. the biden administration notified officials how many will be resettled in their states. california will welcome the most

reasonables from this first group followed by texas, oklahoma, washington and arizona, in total, the white house says it hopes to resettle close to 100,000 afghan refugees by next fall. now to a new book that looks into the dark consequences of a lack of a leadership and clarity of mission can have even for elite military units. it's fighted -- tilesed /* title, alpha. >> i saw eddie take a shot at a 12-year-old kid. the guy got crazier and crazier. >> he was okay with killing anybody. >> that was some of the testimony from members of gallagher's own platoon back in 2018 on the atrocities they say gallagher committed. he was accused of war crimes in the fatal stabbing of a young

wounded fighter for the islamic militant group detained by the united states military. ultimately, gallagher was found not guilty. six of the seven charges against him, including murder and attempted mur. he was found guilty in the charge involved in the no cowith the corps. the motion he received after his loan conviction later was reversed by president trump. the author of that new book pulitzer prize winning "new york times" reporter david phillips joins us. he called the new book the best military book of the year. david, good morning, it's good to see you. so if you can, take a step back and remind folks. we do a little about what eddie gallagher was accused to have done and the members of his platoon we heard in that testimony were appalled by with they saw. >> right. eddie gallagher had taken about 20 elite navy seals on a mission to help get isis out of mosul and what the man who served

under him said is once they got to that city, he started shooting almost indiscriminately using a rifle to shoot at women, old men, groups of children gathering water at the river and what probably most people know is he was accused by them of stabbing a prisoner of war they had taken from the battlefield to death and then taking photos with the body. >> so several of the seals warned the higher-ups about gallagher, said he had become unhinged. they began to take it further and report war crimes they believed they were witnessing. what was the response up the chain of command? >> the response was basically silence. not in a way that let the seals know nothing was going to be done. oftentimes their officers would say, hey, we'll take care of it. they buried it and did nothing. at some point they discouraged the seals from saying anything

about their leader saying, hey, this could ruin your careers and finally these guys who were quiet professionals didn't consider them whistle proceeders at all, felt they had no choice to go outside of the seal investigation and into the navy seal investigation service. because they felt if they didn't get eddie gallagher out of the seal teams, his influence would be a cancer and continue to spread in the organization as he led larger and larger groups of seals. >> so if there was all this evidence from people that served with him, he was indiscriminately shooting people, targeting ladies, charging children and people that were supposed to be there protecting from isis. how did he get acquitted of six of seven counts?

>> well, there are a couple things striking when i started looking into this. first of all, the navy decided that the jury that would decide this would be a jury all, basically all vetted rans that had combat experience on the ground. basically, they were all men like eddie gallagher. if you put a cop on the stand for killing someone and the entire jury was cops, you might get a different verdict from a jury of your peers. the second thing i discovered when i was reporting is is that one of the jurors knew eddie gallagher personally, had been to bible study and lied about it on the stand when asked if he knew the chief. now, how did that juror vote? we don't know. certainly he lied so that he can get on and judge his friend and comrade. >> it seems to me people into

seals, they take great pride if what they do. they take great pride in the service of this country, seals in combat would be the first to want to hold them accountable. i do on this show. if cops kick down a door and a lot of things are happening. i'm careful to not put myself in a position to make judgment. the same thing when are you in war-time situations and there is a fog of war, yeah, sometimes mistakes happen and people are killed because of it. here based on your reporting, based on this book, there was no fought war, no chaos. he was looking through the scope and deliberately killing civilians. i just don't understand how they acquitted him of that. >> you know, you are right, like this whole affair is not much of

a whodunnit. eddie gallagher texted friends before he deployed, he wanted to stab someone in the head. three seals told authorities they witnessed him stab a prisoner of war to death. afterwards, he took photos and send it to a friend effectively, i did it. it's not sherlock holmes or murder she wrote. what was interesting is there is a larger cultural whodunnit here. why would someone like eddie gallagher. ed to do that stuff. what trained him? what culture he had grown up with deciding that was worth doing. for him it appeared to be something he wanted to brag about that gave him status. what i found in my reporting is that you are right, the seals are absolutely a group of professionals who find this abhor ent. there is also subculture in the seals that almost has a gang mentality. that in the absence of winning

in years and years of war redefined what victory is. oftentimes they counted status in terms of bloodshed. >> we also have them bringing in clemency and pardoning him. this push and pull behind the scenes between the white house and the pentagon, where the navy was saying, mr. president, you don't want to go to the matt for this guy, trust us. donald trump was watching fox news where the campaign was being made on behalf of eddie gallagher. he did take that step to bring clemency and pardon him. >> that's right. so eddie gallagher's family and a member of members of congress actually went on conservative media again and again, making a case for eddie gallagher. often completely ignorant of the fact, it amounted to a sort of infomercial no president trump for pardoning this man. the president bought into it. even though his top advisers, people at the very top of the

navy and joint chiefs were saying, hey, don't get involved in this. it's not that eddie gallagher may not be worthy of clemency, also when you step into normal every day accountable and justice issues in the military and you politicize that, that's dangerous in the eyes of military leaders. because if you politicize the military. it can destabilize it and it is a small step down the road to what they see as a potential coup. >> just to follow up on this question, what has been the effect of that clemency on the soul of the navy seals? what did it signal to those persons who have dedicated their lives to this year? >> well, i think to the man who stepped up and did a hard right thing and told authorities what they had seen, it was devastating. a number left the navy and it's

still really hard for them to deal with. for the larger navy the leaders worry, now somebody else is worried, all i have to do if i'm accused of acar war crime is appeal to right wing authorities got it taken care of that way. within the seals, themselves, within this secretive group of professionals, there is something different going on. there is a sort of a struggle. between people who think what eddie gallagher ask accused of doing what is terrible, it was something that made us no different from isis. and other people who think that is a part of doing war. you can't act like a bunch of boy scouts. they're fine with it. so the question is between these two groups, who prevails? and i think that is really an

open question right now. >> the new book is alpha eddie gallagher and the war for the soul of navy seals, pulitzer prize reporter for the new york sometimes times staifd david phillips. the meeting bind had to get more americans vaccinated against covid-19. the one company he called out by name and joe's new podcast is now live, ladies and gentlemen. >> mika, do you remember the first podcast when we had bowie? and bing crosby? >> that was incredible. that's what they now say we will do. >> 2008. >> a christmas segment. >> they shot the video, he knocked on the door. it was biz, a it worked. >> it was crazy. >> you can get it on spotify, apple puveng. it's mostly about coin and stamp collections so hang in there. the music comes eventually. >> whewee. >> back in a moment.

♪♪ president biden met with the ceos of disney, walgreens and microsoft and kaiser to discuss vaccine mandates for large businesses which he says will keep the economy on track. >> in total, these vaccination requirements will cover 100 million workers. 2/3 of all workers and it builds

on previous requirements that we have are installed so far. the vaccine requirements work. more companies are instituting them. even at fox news, they required it. >> the rules will apply to businesses with more than 100 workers. 100 or more who need to be fully vaccinated or show negative test result once a week. businesses that do not comply with the mandate risk fines of $14,000 per violation. >> we have chief content of forbes here with us. randall, i can't think of a ceo, business owner, i haven't talk to that will say publicly this needs to be done or privately will say -- and this is what i usually here -- thank god he is doing this. i didn't want to have to do it.

they can blame it on him. they make sure they can get back to the business of the bottom line. >> that is 1,000%. they don't want the business in the middle of politics. the vaccine is political. they want workers back in the office and the economy healthy. they want somebody else to take the heat. this is a dirty secret. they all say the same thing. they all want the mandate. they want somebody else to take the heat. all of them. >> haveyou spoken to one ceo who said they wish he hadn't done this? >> zero. not one. >> they have to get people in the office. >> people crave normalcy. that is what vaccines do. it is political. they want biden to take the heat. >> some people do not want to come back. also with us is the editor of forbes. >> we can't. >> can't talk about it?

maggie mcgrath is with us. the rainmakers. 50 over 50 investment list. 50 women are shaping the future of finance, fuelling high growth businesses and forging a more innovative and inclusive financial future. this is a really, really powerful list. i can't wait to do more with this. we have more to come. let's focus. maggie, phyllis newhouse. >> she is 59 years old. she served in the military for 22 years. she founded a cyber security company. ran that for a number of years and in 2020 in the middle of the spac boom, someone approached her and said let's go public. she said no, thanks. she turned around and brought the first all-female spac to market in march. there were 528 spacs when they came to market and one had a

female at the head. >> for viewers who don't know what spacs and what is it? >> it is a blank check company. >> i like that. >> go ahead. >> what happens is a way to go public without the public of the ipo. they pre-go public. you get a blank check to buy a business. the shell is public. now they go out and shop. it is very hot. forbes full discldisclosure. we are going public through a spac. >> this list again. 50 over 50 are women over 50 kicking butt. reaching their highest heights. jack. >> she is familiar to forbes. one of our 100 greatest minds. this is the woman who is bringing and has brought the idea of venture capital to

philanthropy. put money into it and invest in the sustainable solution versus give money. you have women in pakistan and they need to establish banking systems. she has $137 million in 189 organizations. >> maggie, tell us about dream. >> she was born in bangladesh. came to the united states for college and worked on wall street. she saw the power of the capital markets. she saw they were not reaching female entrepreneurs around the world. she is investing in women's livelihoods around the world. >> one of the more inspiring speakers on the list, i'm jumping to the end. carla harris. i'm the biggest fan-girl is the

word you use. she is incredible. >> you can say fan-girl. carla harris is 58. the vice chairman at morgan stanley. she also runs their multiculture innovation lab. an accelerator for tech companies. they have helped 51 companies get $80 million in additional funding. she is passionate about funding getting to entrepreneurs that are not getting access to funding. one fact. she is an accomplished gospel singer and performed at carnegie hall. >> we have also beth seidenberg. >> dr. seidenberg. women dominated health care. not with investments. you have to follow the money. you want power and money. she has her own fund making medical investments.

one of the most important venture capitalists, a woman and doctor. she is coming at it with real experience. >> that is fantastic. for more on the list, go to knowyourvalue.com and forbes.com. >> this partnership is really heating up. we will have big announcements coming up. i'm so excited. randall and maggie, thank you. >> willie, we need to talk after the show. we need one of these spacs. we need to buy something. >> you spoke for many people when you asked that question. what the hell is a spac? >> the rich people when i'm on the street. >> you are busking. >> you can podcast your spac. >> you want to invest in the jays and rays. the smart money. >> jays and the rays.

sell everybody. >> congratulations on the launch of your podcast. >> thank you so much. >> you can get it on apple or spotify and it is wonderful. >> i like to do things before anybody else does things. >> leading edge. >> willie, you are right. i think the people want to hear more about stamp collecting and coin collections. >> you talked through that stamp for two hours. >> stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi. i'm reel reel live at msnbc world headquarters in new york city. it is thursday, september 16th. this morning, officials in washington are ramping up security ahead of saturday's planned rally in support of the rioters. insurrectionists who stormed the capitol on january 6th. now new reporting that the far right is discouraging followers from going. emotional testimony f