hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. there is no greater symbol of the anxiety in washington around the upcoming rally on saturday in support of the january 6th insurrectionists than this. the fence surrounding the capitol building first installed after the january 6th capitol attack and now put back up last night. and despite reports that many of the same extremist groups behind the insurrection plan on staying home this time, law enforcement appears to be leaving nothing to chance. capitol police have asked the national guard to be on standby should there be any violence or should the need for support arise. "the washington post" is reporting law enforcement bracing for the justice rally this way. overall there's more confidence in the level of preparedness and far more communication and information sharing under the capitol police's new leadership. but for many of the officers who

lived through january 6th and will be on duty again this weekend, an undercurrent of fear remains. quote, am i scared? absolutely, an officer told "the post." this saturday rally forces a traumatized police force to once again protect the capitol from protesters who openly sympathize with the people who attacked them the first time. take a listen to what the officers told the january 6 select committee back in july. >> on january 6th for the first time i was more afraid to work at the capitol in my entire deployment to iraq. >> i witnessed the rioters using all kinds of weapons against officers including flagpoles, metal bike racks that they had torn apart, and various kind of projectiles. officers were being bloodied in the fighting. many were screaming and many were blinded and coughing from chemical irritants being sprayed in their faces. >> as my physical injuries

gradually subsided and the adrenaline that had stayed with me for weeks waned, i've been left with the psychological trauma and the emotional anxiety of having survived such a horrific event. >> january 6th appears to have been just the beginning of what congressman adam kinzinger referred to today as a new normal, a heightened state of alert from coast to coast around domestic extremist threats tied to the current republican party and its leader, a twice impeached disgraced ex-president, committed to the big lie about voter fraud and the stolen election. just hours ago the ex-president released a statement expressing his solidarity with the insurrectionists saying, quote, our hearts and minds are with the january 6th suspects. it's the same rhetoric and revisionist history peddled by large swaths of the republican base. here is what kin zing her to say about that on msnbc earlier today. >> it's ironic the rallying cry

is for january 6th. i think it would have been the impeachment and removal of donald trump, the calling out of people responsible, which i'm committed to doing. lastly, we stop accepting that somehow these ideas of a militia that wants to overthrow the government that that's okay. but we actually have conversations and disagreements in congress. we don't do it by this overthrow the government fetish that seems to have spread so far. >> the heightened terror threat is where we start this hour. betsy woodruff swann is here, an msnbc contributor. also joining us christopher goldsmith, an iraq war veteran. he monitors domestic extremism and national security issues. and former rnc chairman michael steele is here. michael steele, there's no bottom so i'm not going to ask you what it represents for the

ex-president, twice impeached, once for his role in inciting the insurrection, putting out a statement in support of the insurrectionists. i want to talk about the consequences of said statement and said support. this is in "the new york times" today. it's going to haunt me how the capitol riot changed lives. officer james blassingame, we can't move past it. something comes up every day, every week, where there's a new piece where somebody is trying to change the narrative. you can't get past that. we go to work every day to protect congress. these people won't even have our back. we, the officers, did our job. no member of congress was injured that day. for them not to have our back, it's extremely disheartening. and that's putting it plightly this is a rally for people who used flagpoles to maim the bodies of the police officers who protect them. where are we heading? >> well, we're heading to a very

difficult place. i think congressman adam kinzinger put his finger on it very precisely that you're looking at two possible worlds -- one in which we can have disagreements in the halls of congress, on the streets of america, quite honestly, and it doesn't have to result in violence. it doesn't even have to resort to, you know, hibpiper hyperbol and threatening conversation. we're heading in the other space. and trump's statement today is illustrative of that as well. where it is always pushing against the button, us against them, they're a threat to us, we need to, you know, take them out, get rid of democrats. get rid of republicans. and that rhetoric is the environment that is being stoked right now. there are any number of ways and means that we can go about it.

it really boils down to, nicolle, how much the american people are willing to tolerate. adam is right. we can go in a lot of different directions here, but ultimately it will be the direction we choose as a society, and we just need to stop talking about these people as if this is somehow common place, normal, to even have that debate. no, we're not going to debate do we overthrow the government today or do we go get coffee? no, we're not having that debate. let's call out what trump and his ilk are doing and continuing to stoke. we'll take the precautions on capitol hill for sure. we'll put the barriers up. but think about it, and this is something every republican member of the house and the senate who stand with january 6th or pretend it didn't happen the way it happened, to understand that what we're looking at here, all of the groups -- and i grew up in washington, d.c. i grew up in petworth and i've

seen a lot of rallies. all the groups that come to this city, that come to this town, we don't have to scramble to put up barbed wire fences and, you know, things to keep them away from the capitol, to keep them away from the institutions and representations of our government. this group, the trump-led group, we have to throw up fences. we have to call out the national guard. what does that tell you, member of congress, that we have to do that in order as citizens to exercise their right to protest. that's very different than what we've seen in the past, and it's something i think we need to acknowledge and be truthful about. >> well, i mean, let's be blunt. the ex-president said this threat is the same as the foreign terror threat of 9/11. that's where we are. >> that's where we are. >> the last republican president said the supporters, they're

radicalized, are from the same foul stench of an ideology as the terrorist who is attacked us on 9/11. why are we indulging the feelings of people like kevin mccarthy and congressman goessert who want to be in bed with that same grave threat and remain a member in good standing in congress? why aren't there sanctions for people who lay down with people, in the words of the last republican standard-bearer, represent the same grave threat to our homeland as the terrorists who attacked us on september 11 snth. >> there are two forms of sanctions. one is an internal and the other is an external. the internal sanction is the self-policing. it's where the leadership polices the membership that gets out of line and the membership polices the leadership and doesn't do the right thing. what we've seen in the internal sanction is that our leadership inside the gop right now is more

inclined to sanction those who stand for truth, ala kinzinger and cheney, than those who are perpetuaing the lie. the external sanction is what we, the voters do, what we, the people do. you unelect these bastards. that's what you do. you don't give them another shot, another bite at the apple, another strike at the gold ring of congress. you don't further empower them. and note this, if you can't vote out that individual then don't vote enough of them in to give them power. and that's where the -- that's where the upcoming election cycles rest with the american people. how much power do you want to give a party, democrat or republican, right or left, when they sanction and argue for a lie, that you know is a lie? how much power do you want to give them? you may not be unable to elect them all but you don't have to

give them the power by giving them the control of those institutions of government that set the course for this nation. >> betsy, i want to show you something speaker pelosi said about the real world implications of these events. >> i'm the speaker. i have threats all the time. i was afraid for the other members, the staff and the workers in the capitol. they were traumatized by this assault on the capitol of the united states, a temple of democracy for the world. i'm not a big person wedded to how they trashed my office. i don't care about things, but i do care about people and the trauma that we saw in the eyes of the people who work there, young people, idealistic people like you just shocked by the force of the violence and the threats that were going on that day. it was a horrible day because it

was about not 9/11 from without but an enemy from within. >> talk about your understanding of the preparations for what congressman kinzinger describes as a new normal in washington, this threat. >> the department of homeland security has been paying attention to this rally for at least several weeks now. i spoke with a federal law enforcement official who said there's been coordination between the fbi, dhs, and has this rally has been promoting itself. one of the big questions for the law enforcement and intelligence officials as this rally nears is the extent to which they get it right in terms of how many people will turn up. in the wake of january 6th, countless domestic extremists were banned from all the major mainstream social media platforms, and one thing that multiple law enforcement officials talked about, publicly

and privately, are concerns there's been a mass migration of extremists organizing from public platforms to encrypted platforms, platforms like telegram, platforms that are a little bit more difficult for law enforcement officials to keep an eye on. one of the big questions as we head into this rally is whether or not the turnout is much larger than they expected because of secret organization that law enforcement may or may not know about. look, if it's a small turnout as currently some of the public discussion about this rally suggests, then that would mean there's been an improvement in terms of information gathering by national security and law enforcement officials since january 6th. the big question is this is the biggest test for the folks who messed up on january 6th. this is the biggest test to see if they've learned from that horrible lethal mistake and they've been able to put in place better practices for

coordinating, communicating, and keeping tabs of the way this threat and these extremists are trying to adjust their organizing strategies in order to be as visible and as aggressive as possible. >> and, chris, this is your expertise specifically, and i know your sense is that a smaller crowd in washington might mean graver danger outside the capitol. explain. >> absolutely. so right now in these online places like telegram and gab, everyone is talking about how this is an fbi honey pot and how people who go there are more likely to get arrested. and you know what, that's true, because this time law enforcement and the media listened to threat reports from folks like me who, unfortunately, spend all of our time watching what these crazy people are doing.

now what we're going to see in d.c. is probably a crowd of maybe 200, because this is not even the "b" team. these are real wannabes. but all around the country there are white power, extremists organizations who are protesting afghan refugees. that is something that we need our governors to be prepared for. >> chris, what is the impact of a statement from the ex-president in these sort of forums that you monitor when he says hearts and minds are with you, when he makes clear that when faced with a choice between the rule of law and protecting the capitol, he stands with the insurrectionists? >> what made january 6th such a bad day is because we had a sitting president encouraging violence. and while he no longer has the platform that he did on january 6th, he is still the president in the minds of these maniacs. so when he sends out these

messages saying, oh, we're with you. we believe in you. we believe that the people have been locked up for attacking cops are political prisoners, that encouraged them. and what we're going to see here is unlike 9/11 where when we were attacked by an outside entity the world came together around us. if we keep seeing these insurrectionists willing to put their faces on the news, on social media and proudly proclaim that they're completely disconnected from reality and willing to engage in violence in order to enact whatever they believe in, the rest of the world is going to not know if they can trust us. and that is a national security threat that is long lasting. >> michael steele, it feels like where we already are. let me put up numbers to bolster what chris was saying. this is a cnn poll.

did president biden legitimately win enough votes for the presidency? almost 80% of republicans say no. so to chris' point, 80% of all republicans believe the same thing as the people who threaten us. they're not all a threat but everyone who is a threat believes donald trump is the real president. how do you monitor -- and they're domestic threats so you obviously are more restricted than with monitoring others -- but how do you monitor 78% of one of the two political parties in the country to make sure you don't miss someone who has been radicalized while being goosed and encouraged by donald trump? >> i think you start, nicolle, with calling it what it is. we don't call domestic terrorism terrorism. it's not classified as such by the justice department. we're just relying on third-party groups out there and

nonprofit organizations that are in this space, in the cyberspace, in the intelligence space to back fill, to sort of do the level of communication along those lines. yeah, we may have the fbi monitor certain activities of the kkk or proud boys, but they're hamstrung by that domestic qualification. this is a domestic organization. these are just nice people who actually go to church on sunday. yeah, but what they're doing monday through saturday winds up turning out on january 6th. so the reality of it is we have to call the thing what it is. and i think once you do that, it then changes the dynamics for members of my party who still want to pretend that all those people who, yeah, they walk through the orderly lines inside the capitol are actually terrorists, domestic terrorists. and once you change what the thing is and you call it what it

is, i think it puts the pressure on the political intelligence, such as it exists, to be honest about that. and then all of a sudden i think you begin to hear them categorized, talk about and engaming in this space differently than they are. >> betsy, to michael's point, that is what the ex-president did. by lining up this current domestic terror threat with the terror threat that led to the attacks of 9/11, he went that far. has anyone followed him there since that speech last weekend? >> i haven't seen prominent officials compare those two events. i think one of the reasons that january 6th happened, to michael's point, is that there was a bias among leadership of u.s. capitol police to take threats from the far right less seriously than they would have taken threats from others. the reason i believe that is i've looked through many, many, many documents where people throughout the u.s. government,

throughout law enforcement and intelligence agencies waved alarm flags, rang alarm bells prior to january 6th, as early as november 2020, and even tracked this trend going back to summer 2020. and these are people in government whose job it is to tractor richl. and they all said this is going to be dangerous. the u.s. capitol building is in dangerous. trump supporters are posing a danger. people told u.s. capitol police about this threat. the intelligence was immense. the people who needed to know what was going to happen on january 6th had lots and lots and lots of warnings. the problem is that they didn't make decisions that kept the capitol building safe. and so then the next question is why didn't they make those decisions? why on january 5th didn't u.s. capitol police leadership take the threat seriously? and what i believe is the most likely explanation is that there

was an assumption to michael's point that if someone is domestic, if they're involved in politics, maybe if they share the broad political that people share they're not as dangerous and don't have the same capacity to be violent. if that's the case, if that's the best explanation for why the capitol building got ransacked on january 6th, then i think it's all the more reason that leaders need to take a good, hard look in the mirror. what do their biases mean and how can their biases put people in danger? >> well, chris, isn't that the story of how we are where we are with domestic extremism threatened and fetishized, to use kinzinger's word for anyone who wants to monitor it aggressively? isn't that where we already are? >> the former president

advertised a former gang at a debate. most americans are never heard of the proud boys until trump entered their names. all of these militias, we have to stop calling them militias. they are built into our constitution. these are people gathering guns, sometimes explosives, and training for violence, for things like breaching the capitol. but it shouldn't be us. it shouldn't be people who are doing this for nonprofits. if i don't do it, who knows the danger that isn't going to be found? that's unsatisfactory. we have to make sure that all of

american government understands that these domestic terrorists want to destroy our democracy. and they're not doing it just with violence. they're doing it by making sure that they get their supporters, their friends, themselves, on to things like local school boards. you look at anything in the proud boys, you google them, it will be about local activity. it's about them harassing school boards about masks. these aren't guys with kids. these are losers, drunks at the bar who want to get on tv. so they start yelling at people using talking points that they downloaded from the internet. >> a terrifying new normal. thank you for starting us off on this today. michael steele is sticking around. when we come back one new hampshire republican lawmaker says he doesn't want his state following the same path as

places like florida, so he's quit the gop because of it protesting extreme anti-vaccine rhetoric coming out of his party. plus, it's been nearly a year since donald trump lost big yet republicans are launching useless and at times laughable so-called election audits and investigations. the gop of pennsylvania is the latest now trying to get its hands on the personal information of millions of voters there. that state's lieutenant governor is our next guest. later in the show the bipartisan leaders of the january 6th committee moving forward with their investigation today saying they will look into the news that general mark milley needed to take action to safeguard the country from trump. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. ick break. when you're entertaining, you want to put out the best snacks that taste great, and come straight from the earth. and last time i checked, pretzels don't grow on trees. just saying. planters. a nut above.

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as we chronicle every day the republican party clearly drifting further and further from reality and toward something much darker. a phenomenon most acutely present, it would appear, in our country's fight against coronavirus. the current version of the gop has fought science at every turn. on the issue in particular, though, or at least some, not enough, there's some willing to say enough. william marsh is a state representative in new hampshire elected to four terms. until this week he was a republican. he's also an ophthalmologist and has a staunch record for advocating for public health measures. he says the tipping point was this week when his colleagues

opposed president biden's plan to require vaccinations for federal and private sector workers. so he planned on retiring quietly. he switched parties. he is now a democrat. here is his reasoning given to "the washington post." quote, it is not in the interests of the public to allow covid to spread in new hampshire as it has in florida. i am a doctor first, so i stood up for my patients and said i am done with this. he goes on to say, quote, i have come to realize a majority of republicans, both locally and in the new hampshire house, hold values which no longer reflect traditional republican values. and so i am recognizing the reality that today's republican party is no longer the party i first joined when campaigning for president reagan so many years ago. joining our coverage investigative reporter, an msnbc contributor. michael steele is still here. a huge round of applause, michael steele, for him for taking a stand. you look at what happened in

california. it's a loser to be pro-disease and indifferent to death. but republicans are speeding down this anti-science, almost -- a.b. stoddard called it covid radicalization. and that is the republican brand. >> yeah, and it proves the adage that, you know, people don't leave their parties. their parties leave them. when you have individuals like this, who, as he said, first and foremost a doctor. so he knows with his professional oath requires of him. he's also well aware of what his elected oath requires of him. and when they're incompatible which they are in this case in order to sustain his work on both fronts, he decided to stand with his people. a lot of folks are seeing that

happen more and more. you saw the narrative play out in california this weekend. i know a lot of folks around washington tried to poo-poo that, it wasn't as big a deal. newsom was going to get re-elected anyway. that wasn't your posture going into this. they saw this -- a lot of republicans saw this as a real opportunity to not just win california but to send the message that what they've been advocating is valuable and a lot more people are buying into it. and that's just not the case. i think, you know, i would say, well, they need to reconsider their stance going into the '22 cycle. you and i, nicolle, know they won't. there's still money and power associated with this position. and as long as that is the case, they're willing to risk the american people, the constituents that they represent telling them no more time in office. if it means they can skirt by

and get by just enough to win enough that they can force down the throats of the american people something the american people clearly don't want. you see that in florida, and you also see the consequences of it. >> nick, the problem with anti-science covid as the republican brand is they are not walking the walk. tucker carlson has been vaccinated. sean hannity has been vaccinated. rupert murdoch has been vaccinated. they've all been vaccinated. do you know how i know that? it's their company's policy. they couldn't work there if they hadn't been vaccinated. this a white house statement to cnn. today's news from fox news follows the trend we're seeing across the country. vaccination and testing requirements work. we're glad they stepped up to protect their workforce and strengthened the economy. we encourage them to convey to their audience these types of practices will protect their employees, their communities and

the economy. fox news is telling viewers to jump off the top of the building when they're jumping into a soft mat. they're lying to their viewers. >> well, look, fox has two conflicting business imperatives, nicolle. the first imperative is to stay in business and keep the doors open. it's bad for fox if sean hannity or steve ducey is in the hospital with delta. on the other hand, they have an audience that feeds on rage and anger about everything that they've put in front of them. and the latest one is covid vaccine and vaccine mandates. there always has to be a culture war about something. it's what keeps people tuned in and keeps the ratings up so they have to pick those fights. and, unfortunately, we see this harmonic convergence, i think, between the political imperatives and the right in organized politics and the anti-vax movement that was there a long time ago but which is newly powerful on social media,

on facebook, other platforms. >> they've also taken it to such a grotesque, almost perverse level. i think tucker carlson's on his way to trinidad to look for nicki minaj's brother's fiancee and health issues and i wonder, michael steele, when enough losing will be enough losing. donald trump probably only had to do this much better in just pretending to notice the death and disease and suffering on his watch. republicans have been wiped out in every election that has taken place since the pandemic began to ravage our country. and now everyone that is dying is unvaccinated. i'm not saying they all watch fox news, but everyone that watches fox news hears this same muddled message on public health safety measures like masking and vaccine mandates. when does the losing, if not the moral failure, make them stop? >> well, that's a political calculation for sure.

one that for some members they don't want to risk their re-elect so they soften their position. they've taken a different stance. for other members they lean further into it. you can look at it on a case-by-case, district by district basis and, okay, it will be what it is. i think your question really begs a broader point and that is as a matter of a national narrative for a national party, are you a party that has bought into death and disease for the same of power and money and false freedoms? or are you -- what exactly are you trying to say here? and these realities are going to be what 2022 are about. >> yeah. >> how do you make that case? >> and you can't turn on a dime.

they seem to have left themselves no margin for a pivot. >> i'm not sure that it's a great way of interpreting how this will play in congressional races around the country and in california. there are a lot of democrats and not as many republicans. and if you run a right-wing talk radio it's probably going to lose against the incumbent democrat. we should be clear about this, this hesitancy and resistance to mandates is not a right-wing phenomenon. you find it in new york city. you find it in brooklyn. you find it in unions where there are real battles over the vaccine mandates, down to washington and around the country. everybody is distrustful and everyone wants to be their own expert. and to me that points to a bigger problem more broadly in our culture and society. >> there's great reporting in "the washington post" about wellness influencers.

you're right, you can find it anywhere. thank you for joining us. michael is sticking around. republicans in pennsylvania want voters to trust them and maybe trust some bamboo seeking company like, oh, i don't know, the cyber ninjas, too. with all of their personal information. our next guest says this is dangerous lunacy. we'll talk about that next. pool floaties are like whooping cough. amusement parks are like whooping cough. even ice cream is like whooping cough, it's not just for kids. whooping cough is highly contagious for people of any age. and it can cause violent uncontrollable coughing fits. sometimes followed by vomiting and exhaustion. ask your doctor or pharmacist about whooping cough vaccination because whooping cough isn't just for kids. [tv announcer] come on down to our appliance superstore where we've got the best deals on refrigerators, microwaves, gas ranges and grills. and if you're looking for...

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republicans crossed a dangerous threshold yesterday as

they continue to push the lie about election fraud in the 2020 election in states all across the country. republican lawmakers in pennsylvania took a major step in their baseless probe of the 2020 election results by approving subpoenas that would look into the personal information of every single voter in pennsylvania. the subpoenas include information such as driver's license numbers, partial social security numbers, and voting methods which republicans say will help them look into claims that ineligible voters cast ballots in the election. to be clear, one more time, president biden won pennsylvania by more than 80,000 votes. the results have been audited, reaffirmed by the state's department of state, judges in pennsylvania and the supreme court have denied bids by trump and his allies to overturn the election results there. michael steele is back with us. michael steele, we're trying to get the lieutenant governor -- we're having some technical

difficulties. this has been on our radar for months. we've spoken to the state's attorney general many times who is confident that maricopa style audit won't happen in pennsylvania, but these moves may have the same animating and radicalizing impact. and you go back to that poll we talked about at the beginning of the hour. 78% of republicans in this country don't believe that president joe biden was legitimately elected. it is the fuel that is burning down faith and trust in our democracy. >> well, i'm a former lieutenant governor, so the one thing we learned, nicolle, is how to pinch-hit when the governor is not there. so i'm happy to stand in for the governor for a short while until we can get his tech worked out. no, i think that's exactly right and that's the point, isn't it? the point is, we know there's no fraud there. but we created enough noise,

diversion, get people upset, fired up, dispirited, distrusting. ah, distrusting, mistrusting the system, not supporting the idea of democracy that they grew up with, that every vote matters, every vote counts. and when there is a problem, the system has tests and ways to figure out how to deal with those problems. to cast doubt on all of that, nicolle, is what this crazy fraud nonsense is about. you have 60 courts affirm there was no fraud. the supreme court said don't even bother us with this crazy, right? our own justice department looked at it and went, nothing here. keep moving. they persist not for any legal or constitutional reason, they persist because there is a political result they're trying to reach. and their political result is one in which they cast enough doubt and control so that on the

other side of these elections they can put into effect the kinds of legislation that we see. they can fall back on that legislation and suddenly the secretary of state takes control of the election or the legislature grabs it and says, i'm sorry, we'll take a closer look and get the result we want. and what now becomes the problem, the challenge, the test, is how the institution holds up to this, the state legislatures and legislators who tried to fight this. that space is still being defined, unfortunately, nicolle. we don't know fully how this will play out because these things will take place. we don't know what the ultimate result will be until we get into the next election cycle. >> michael steele, you have now

more than adequately, superbly held space for our next guest, pennsylvania's lieutenant governor. we had some technical difficulties. thank you for bearing with us. running for the open seat in the midterm election. we've been covering these sort of talks and ambitions and pie in the sky fantasies about a maricopa-style phony audit in pennsylvania and it feels like it's coming to pass. i know there are more levers but are you concerned by this grab in subpoenas approved for every pennsylvanian's personal information? >> i want to be clear, they are risking an identity theft catastrophe to thrice audit an election that fox news called for joe biden over ten months ago and spending millions of

taxpayer dollars to do it. the bottom line is this, i believe this will end with the pennsylvania supreme court with the simple fact they are going this far and they're willing to give 7 million pennsylvanian voters their deep, personal information to some dude they hire off the penny save er is astonishing. i can't believe they're taking it this far for an election no one disputes they win from fox news to karl rove to every major news organization. so it's bizarre and it's also ridiculous strategy, too. a majority of pennsylvanians are appalled that their personal information is going to be turned over to some random vendor that they know nothing about. >> and i know sydney powell's name is in the loop, the cyber ninjas don't have a real track record of doing solid space, if you will. i wonder if there's anything you can do to protect that personal

information from being handed over to republicans who want to hand it over to a cyber ninja like group. >> it's going to appeal to the commonwealth court. the commonwealth court has a significant republican lean. in fact, if i'm not mistaken, that was out of court cases the trump administration prevailed in was a ruling from the commonwealth court. ultimately i think it will be appealed for the supreme court because i think this kind of information turned over to some random vendor. republican or democrat should be outraged and deeply concerned of an identity theft catastrophe that the pennsylvania gop is courting by subpoenaing in information to, again, audit for the third time a pennsylvania election result that fox news called for joe biden over ten months ago. it's utterly bizarre and illogical. furthermore, this is an election

they're claiming was rigged but it's the same election that brought them back into office, too. it's bizarre and illogical. >> and that's the story of the last ten months. the ex-president was behind in every poll. it would have been more suspicious, i think, if he'd won. president biden was ahead in every poll. pennsylvania might have been more curious if he had been defeated. this has also been described as the most secure election in our country's history by chris krebs or the commonwealth has audited the vote twice already. what does it say to you about the republican party in pennsylvania that there's so much heat and enthusiasm for even doing this when everyone knows it's b.s.? this comes down to how hard they can sit for the president, the former president, and curry

favor with their base this is strictly being done to mollify their base and provide them with the evidence that, hey, we're with you. we agree that this election was rigged, even though they know better than anybody that it wasn't. the bottom line is simply this. this is an election that was called for by fox news over ten months ago and this is being driven by the base and they're afraid that they are going to be primary by somebody even more on the fringe that is going to insist this audit continue. i believe it will be resolved in the court successfully by the supreme court. in the meantime it is utterly bizarre the path the republicans are pursuing. >> it certainly is. lieutenant governor, thank you for bearing with us through our technical difficulties. michael steele, thank you for spending some time with us. >> thanks for pitching in, l.g. >> you guys need your own show. president biden calling out republicans for failing to protect working families by

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that's something we haven't realized in this country for decades. >> president biden today laying out in more detail his economic vision for the country, pushing for the richest americans to pay their fair share, to pay for investments for the middle class. the president calling for upping irs enforcement on americans making more than $400,000 a year while cutting taxes for middle class families and broadening the safety net. now the president must look to congress to pass his infrastructure and budget reconciliation bill, both of which face an uncertain future. let's bring in ashley parker, "washington post," white house bureau chief and msnbc political analyst. it has been a busy sort of post lane kwlor day for this president. i know this speech is important. they view it as the kind of issues where this president and this white house has majority support. these tax proposals are among them. where does the agenda and the specific pieces of legislation stand in congress? >> well, it is a tough fight in congress, and not necessarily because of republicans.

i mean the first challenge, of course, is republicans, which there's no republican support, so they are trying to pass this sort of second big grab bag of democratic priorities. what is really the crux of joe biden's domestic agenda through a reconciliation, a process that goes through only democratic votes. in the house they have a vote margin of three and in the senate they can't afford to lose a single vote. so you have this fascinating situation where, yes, there's clear disagreement with the republicans, but what we're really seeing play out now is the progressive wing and the moderate wing of the democratic party figuring out where can they come to terms on some sort of agreement. >> ashley, i love france, i love the bureau, i love souffle, i love everything french and the french are mad. explain. >> they are mad. they felt like they were blindsided by this national security deal. they sort of likened it to something that they say happened under former president trump, that they got no heads up.

as a sign of their anger they have cancelled a major gala. it is interesting because one of the things that joe biden -- and, again, this is not a huge rift on the global scale, but one of the things that president biden promised was he was a statesman, he knew foreign policy. this seems like one of those easy mistakes that could have been avoided with a simple heads up or pre-discussion with allies. >> ashley, what is sort of the general tone and tenor? i know there's a feeling that they survived a particularly brutal august, that the afghanistan chapter was tragic obviously for the military, for many afghans, but they always felt like they had majority of the public with them. how does it seem around there now? >> so as complicated as we just laid out what is going through congress right now, this is something that they are eager to be dealing with. they think this is what they want to push. they think this is where

democratic voters are. they think they have public opinion on their side. what you saw president biden talking about today was sort of saying, you know, to the middle class, the system doesn't work for you and i'm going to fix that system and here is how. in a different sort of, more nuanced, calmer way, that's the argument that former president trump very effectively made. his argument was the system doesn't work and i'm going to absolutely burn it all down. biden is saying the system doesn't work to, he's literally saying i'm going to build back better and here is how. they think if they have the time and space to message this they cannot only get enough democrats on board they hope to pass it, but they can get the american public on board. >> i know on the vaccine mandate fight, that's another one they relish having with any critics, republicans in the state or anyone else. ashley fargo, thank you so much for your great reporting. it is great to see you, my friend. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. we are just getting started. ing.

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♪ ♪ this is a political party that spent the past five years trashing the fbi, trashing the cia, trashing the intelligence community, sitting back being quiet for the most part especially in the house when donald trump said he trusted russia and vladimir putin more than he trusted our intel community. now they're trashing general milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs. this is what we republicans back when i was a republican, this is what we always accused democrats of doing. it is just insane.

this is a party that is now attacking generals, the fbi, the cia, the intel community, the very people who keep us safe. it is crazy. >> and that is who they are. hi again, everybody. it is 5:00 in new york. our friend and colleague joe scarborough this morning pointing out the hypocrisy and craven nature of republican-led attacks against all of the people in charge of keep the whole country safe. their latest target, of course, general mark milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs. milley is now being accused of really bad stuff, treason. calls for his firing, his resignation or even a court martialing, and they're mounting among the twice-impeached ex-president's buddies in congress. those coming after excerpts from a new book called "peril" by bob woodward and robert costa reveal milley had two conversations with his counterpart in china in the last few months of the trump

administration, assuring his counterpart that the ex-president was not about to start a war. i don't know. seems kind of important. milley defended the calls saying they were in keeping with his responsibilities to, quote, maintain strategic stability. now while one party calls those efforts treasonous, there are others who find them critical to uncovering the truth about the state of mind of a president whose supporters would go on to launch an insurrection. just this afternoon the select committee investigating january 6th released a statement. quote, the facts surrounding steps taken at the pentagon to protect our security both before and after january 6th are a crucial area of focus for the select committee. indeed, the select committee has sought records specifically related to these matters and we expect the department of defense to cooperate fully with our probe. but we might not have to wait until the committee releases a report to find out more from general milley. later this month he will be under oath testifying before the senate armed services committee

alongside other top defense officials. while the focus at the hearing will be on the withdrawal from afghanistan, milley will be sure to get questions about his actions during the last administration as well. all of this as another newly released excerpt from "peril" peels back the curtain on more behind-the-scenes efforts by general milley to tamp down the dangerous musings of the ex-president. here is an account of milley's reaction to the former president wanting to use military force to stop the protests that erupted in many cities after the murder of george floyd. quote. they used spray paint, mr. president, milley said. that's not an insurrection. that guy up there, he pointed to the portrait of abraham lincoln on the wall of the oval office. that guy up there, lincoln, he had an insurrection. milley cited the militia bomb bart monday of the u.s. army's fort sumter in 1861 that started the civil war. the protest should be monitored,

milley said, we should pay attention tos, it's important. but it was an issue for local police and local law enforcement, mayors and governors. quote, it's not an issue for the u.s. military to deploy forces on the streets of america, mr. president. woodward and costa detail milley's inner conflict on june 1st when protestsers were cleared from lafayette square. milley bolted soon after realizing the political nature of the walk. they write this. quote, but it was too late for milley to escape notice. he was photographed in his camouflage, looking dressed for battle. in 45 seconds, milley realized he had made a mistake that threatened to compromise his most prized possession, forged over decades, his integrity and his independence as the senior military officer in the united states of america. walking with trump when he was on a political mission, even for a split second, was utterly wrong.

this is my road to damascus moment, milley thought, feeling as if he was looking into a personal abyss. the latest details on the efforts by the chairman of the joint chiefs to suppress the politicization of the military by the former president is where we start this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friend. tom nichols is here, contributing writer for "the atlantic" and professor at the u.s. name war college. joining us, phil rucker, senior washington correspondent for "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst and author of "the new york times" best-selling book "i alone can fixes." retired four star u.s. army general barry mccaffrey, former national security member, msnbc military analyst. general mccaffrey, let me start with you. we talked when sort of the first picture being painted by woodward and costa emerged. as the days have gone on it has really -- it has polarized i think this very polarized conversation even more. i wonder your thoughts on what we're learning. >> yeah, look, i have read every

one of these books that came out, and phil rucker's book "i alone can fix it" is absolutely fabulous. i'm looking forward to reading "peril." to some extent however they're almost unneeded. all they do is give granularity, context, richness of the obscenities being uttered in the oval office, mostly being acted out in public, was a president trying to overthrow the election of mr. biden and who was on the edge of using the elements of coercive power of the u.s. government to enforce it. acting secretary of defense, retired lieutenant colonel, acting homeland security, about to fire the cia director. if we were looking at a third world country we would have said this guy's going to conduct a coup against the constitution. standing in the way, the

professional military who swore an oath to the constitution, not to the president. they were, as they should have been, enormously concerned about the threat to the republic. >> you know, tom nichols, i think it is interesting even after, you know, four or five years of watching donald trump on the world stage we till tend to narrow the focus instead of broaden it. i mean general, then secretary mattis, who didn't have any quit in him as described by his peers and friends, couldn't take it once the ex-president made a move sure to have our syrian allies slaughtered with his sort of erratic moves he was advised against in syria. john kelly, a man who, you know, celebrated general who lost his own son, didn't have any sort of -- nothing he couldn't bear, didn't ultimately make it, was run out of that white house probably by donald trump's monstrosity. we may never actually know. so the pattern is a lawless

president, so reprehensible that generals who spent careers keeping the country safe ultimately couldn't stick around. why is the conversation about milley ignoring that history? >> i think, you know, we sometimes lose sight of the fact that the american system of government wasn't designed to cope with somebody like donald trump. >> yeah. >> that the constitution, our institutions, our norms, our traditions, they all assume that -- and this is a place where i should really add i don't represent the defense department or the war college. you know, the system that we live this is based on agreements and a general sense that normal and decent people will hold these offices. you know, james madison when he was asked about checks and balances said, without virtue in the public, checks and balances,

he says, literally no system of government can save you, can secure you. that's what we learned during this period. that if you get somebody who thinks that by winning an election he basically bought a giant corporation that he now owns and that uniformed men and institutions that they support just aren't capable of coping with that. i think that's what you saw with milley. i think people are focusing on milley because we have really short attention spans and really short memories, and milley is the new whipping boy of the day for people in the republican party. but this is not new and it is not the first time that a senior

military officer has been placed in this terrible dilemma. >> well, and it would seem, phil rucker, that if you wanted to examine something that really should be scrutinized before anyone with any echos of donald trump is ever the country's commander in chief again, you could see bipartisan interest in looking at someone who publicly called them my generals. i mean he publicly wanted these parades. you and carol leonnig explore a lot of the same terrain, and what is extraordinary is what donald trump wanted the military to do. what is heartening is how milley reacted. >> yeah, and, nicolle, we shouldn't be surprised about how milley reacted. he was reacting as any student of history or student of the constitution would, and, of course, that's what general milley is. he's not a political servant. he is not a trump lap dog. he was appointed by trump, of course, to be the joint chief of staff but he was a military officer and his role was to lead the military and protect its

independence, and he obviously was very troubled by that photo-op in june of 2020 at lafayette square, the photo-op when trump walked across the park to hold up the bible. that was the lowest point in milley's career as the chairman of the joint chiefs, and he became determined. we detail this in depth in our book, he became determined never to let that happen again. it is one of the reasons why he was so on edge in the months after the november election, looking for any sign that trump could do something unlawful or dangerous or unconstitutional in his role and with his power as the commander in chief. >> phil, the select committee investigating the january 6th insurrection in a statement today makes clear they will investigate all of these incidents. any reaction that you or your colleagues have heard today from the pentagon? >> no, other than just continued support for milley. you heard from the defense secretary austin, saying he has confidence in milley.

that's, of course, what president biden said earlier this week and the white house press secretary jen psaki, all leaving no doubt that miley is going to stay in this job and he's not going to be forced out, certainly not by the democratic administration. but i think we can anticipate that the pentagon will cooperate with this investigation of january 6th, and it is safe to assume a great deal of the questioning for general milley when he comes before the congress to talk about afghanistan will be about president trump, about his fears for a coup, about his belief that the president in his final months in office was unstable, erratic and dangerous to the country. >> not to be a spoiler here, but general mccaffrey, the president in his final months was unstable, dangerous and manic. we all saw it. we saw it on tv. we heard it in his call-in interviews where it appeared he couldn't get out of his pa jam au. he was phoning in and saying crazy things, even in the views of his own allies in the media. i want to read more from what

woodward and costa have here. this is wanting to use the 82nd airborne at lafayette square. quote, trump was adamant i wanted the storied 82nd airborne, stationed at fort bragg, north carolina, the military's elite crisis responder, to arrive in washington before sunset when a protest was planned in lafayette square. the president was getting increasingly contentious. esper worried that if he didn't put something on the tanl trump might formally order him to bring the 82nd to d.c. he needed the president to calm down. mr. president, esper said, let's do this, we'll alert the troops and start moving them north from fort bragg, but we're not going to bring them into the city. we can get the guard here in time. if we can't, if it gets out of control, we have these other forces. milley agreed with esper's approach. neither he nor esper wanted a potentially bloody, unpredictable street confrontation between black lives matter protestsers and highly trained, elite military forces. i have read this five times and

what startles me is why they entertained this with him. why didn't they say no? >> i think that comment about we presume that the president of the united states and other senior officers of government, the women and men of integrity and principle and experience and good judgment. in this case we are a lawless, rogue buffoon as the commander in chief. it is not clear -- by the way, there's no question he is the commander in chief and he and secretary mark esper were the only ones who could legally give orders to the armed forces and he was out of control. mark esper is actually a very talented, experienced individual. he was fired promptly, despite his political accommodations for trump, he got fired for not following orders. then he ran up against milley. you know, it is amazing. the insurrection act is there.

the president has over 300 laws that allow him to use emergency powers. they're considerable. he can launch nuclear strikes on foreign nations without the authority of any other person. though i think in this case, again, to go back to mark milley, we ought to be grateful we had a patriot, a man of integrity, experience and good judgment who acted as a final firewall. he never actually told trump he wouldn't do something, but he was setting up the condition to make sure the armed forces weren't involved in a transition of government. >> i mean i guess part of me can't help but stand back and note how absolutely bonkers it is that donald trump wanted to use the insurrection act -- it is called that -- to suppress protests, largely peaceful in the streets of american cities after george floyd was murdered, and then he would go on to incite an actual insurrection whose mission statement was hang

mike pence six months later. i have noticed probably on twitter, sometimes i search by your name and see everything so i can catch up, and you treated this, calls for milley to resign are stupid, calls to fire him are stupid, the call to china was a good thing. we are just in opposite land. >> yeah. you know, one of the things we need to ask too when we say trump wanted to use the insurrection act, donald trump wouldn't know the insurrection act from a mcdonald's menu. the question is who around him, you know, whispering this stuff in his ear and saying, tell esper to do this, tell milley to do that. i mean those are -- i mean to some extent donald trump is simply too stupid to have done any of this. the real question is who was around him putting this bug in his ear. i think that's one of the reasons milley was so concerned, and rightly so. the government is falling apart. the presidency is imploding and you are walking down the halls and running into who? mike lindell?

sidney powell? mike flynn? you know, you have to wonder who is getting into the oval office, who is talking to the president, how far out of control could this get. again, the system isn't designed to cope with a white house full of unhinged cookes. >> what do we do, tom nichols? >> we elect better people for one thing, which we started to do, and we have a long, hard look at ourselves about things like these cold war era policies about the -- as general mccaffrey pointed out, you know, thousands of pages of legislation where the president can basically do whatever he wants, launch nuclear weapons at will. you know, we need to think about paring down some of the powers of these institutions, which grew out of control i think primarily as a response to the cold war. also, and i will say it again, because we really believed that only decent, humane, normal

human beings would hold these offices, and now we've been confronted with the reality that on occasion you can get people in there who are truly awful human beings. you are going -- we now have proved that's possible and we have to think about it. >> well, i'm going to push you even further. he is front-runner for the nomination of the party, and they still like him more than anybody else, tom nichols. should the president's nuclear authorities and military powers being curtailed? >> well, you don't want to do too much constitutional tinkering just as a reaction to one unhinged president, but the problem is then he is -- even if he doesn't win the presidency or run again, he leads a party that is now full of unhinged people including a lot of people in congress who know better, who really should have been the brakes on all of this. so --

>> we lost tom nichols' audio there. let me ask you the same question, general mccaffrey. with donald trump as the current front-runner for the republican nomination, having a kook may not be an anomaly, it may not be a once-in-every-country's event. it may be the new normal for the republican party. should we change the laws regarding a president's nuclear authorities? >> yeah, no question. again, i agree. you don't want to make changes based on mr. trump. hopefully that's an anomaly. hopefully the country will regain its senses and commitment to the rule of law, but it is clear to me that we should never allow a first-strike capability to one person, the commander in chief, the president of the united states. that's where we've got it. we need to find a couple of other constitutional figures. you know, the secretary of defense, the speaker of the house, you name it, where there's a group agreement that a nuclear strike is warranted.

we've got 1,800 active nukes. there's no question we could absorb a first strike. we are in great danger of misinterpreting enemy action, potential enemy actions. we don't want to even get near that one. nuclear weapons are a horrific tool and they need to be more carefully controlled. >> wow. tom nichols, phil rucker, general barry mccaffrey, thank you all for starting us off this hour. up next for us, to boost or not to boost? all eyes are on a critical fda vote on the science behind booster shots set for tomorrow. we will get a preview of what they are likely to recommend. plus, disinformation about the disinformation about nicki minaj and that invite from the white house. and a brand-new indictment from the much-ballyhooed during ham investigation. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k break. don't go anywhere.

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there's some wild weather to show you quickly in washington, d.c. that's a live picture. we've been watching the storm come and go during our broadcast. we wanted to tell you we see what you see. there it is. we will keep an eye on it. i don't have the weather analogy here, but i want to tell you about an fda advisory panel that's scheduled to vote tomorrow on covid pfizer boosters for fully vaccinated americans. their decision so far in the pandemic have helped clear the way for all of our current protocols about vaccines, but adding to the already heated and, frankly, confusing debate around the third shots the fda's new review of the evidence suggests more of a neutral stance than a decisive, instructive one, citing data

that shows our current vaccines hold up well against severe covid, but pfizer's third shot can still increase immunity six months after the second dose with no serious safety concerns. it comes as the biden administration has been ironing out its plan in hopes of offering boosters to all americans starting next week as part of its tackling of the highly contagious delta variant. joining us, jonathan lemire, msnbc contributor, and dr. jha. i get more information on stories that break, and i have seen what you have written about the boosters. i wonder if you can share it with our viewers. i think people are confused. >> thank you for having me back, nicolle. it is confusing and the messaging has not been as clear as it should be. i would say a few things. first of all, our vaccines are

holding up against severe illness for most people, but the data emerging from israel, the data emerging from the united states suggests that efficacy of the vaccine begins to wane probably six months after the second shot. for young, healthy people it may not be a big deal because they are still protected against severe hospitalizations and deaths. but for chronically ill people, people who are frail, i think there the evidence suggests they probably do benefit from a booster. so in my mind the fda should authorize boosters for vulnerable people, and for young, healthy people, people can disagree whether it is necessary or not. >> i understand from your public health role it is a studied response, but i think people are asking what should i do. is it better to be boosted or should you wait for more clarity? >> if you are in the high-risk group, if you are chronically ill, you should get the booster. let's see what the fda committee

says, but if you are in a high-risk group, absolutely. if you are in a low-risk group and you don't live with someone who is immuno promised or high risk, i think i probably would wait and wait to see more data and make a decision later. high risk, get boosted. lower risk, wait until we have more data. >> jonathan lemire, this white house was prepared to roll out with supply and with messaging a booster campaign. it was supposed to start september 20th. they've had in commitment to see the science and those plans are on hold until they see the decision. what is happening behind the scene? we have acknowledged your wild weather. please stay safe and dry. what has happened? is it on pause? just explain how the white house is handling this? >> reporter: nicolle, first of all i can provide for you a weather report here. i do have an overhang, but i apologize. i am going to get a little wet and apologies for the noise.

it is really coming down here at the white house with plenty of thunder and lightning as well. yes, the white house press briefing today was dominated by discussions about the booster shots and their future with an aside for nicki minaj's errant medical diagnosis and her thoughts on the vaccine. to clarify the white house said they would arrange to have her speak to one of their health officials, but at least not yet is she invited to the white house to speak to the president, but who knows? it could change. in terms of where we are with the boosters, press secretary jen psaki deaf ren she'll signed wait until what hatches tomorrow. she put it, there's a broad consensus among physicians that boosters will be needed, that they will be moving to those in the weeks ahead. perhaps the timeline is backed up. it was originally going to start next week, but they're not backing off. they are saying they believe the evidence will show it is necessary to keep americans

safe. possibly it will be a phased-in booster, with those who are most vulnerable first. as the secretary put it, the president himself plans to get a booster, once it was approved, once his white house physician said it was necessary, he himself would take it. >> dr. jha, questions like the ones i'm about to ask may make physicians nervous because it is a time when americans all sort of fancy themselves armchair epidemiologists. but if you have had moderna or johnson & johnson, is this process, is what they're reviewing relevant to you? are they just reviewing pfizer data? >> yes, so they're reviewing pfizer data right now. they will be reviewing moderna data in the upcoming weeks. what is going to happen, i suspect tomorrow, is a determination by the advisory committee that will officially and technically only be about pfizer. but in the next couple of weeks we will see a determination on

moderna. j & j is just a little bit behind. so that may have to wait for another month. >> can you tell us what the latest status is as far as you understand of the process that the fda will undertake for a kids' vaccine? >> yes. so that actually is moving along i think pretty well. of course, those of us who are parents of kids who are under 12, not fast enough, but it is coming. >> correct. >> you know, i have a 9 year old i would like to get vaccinated, and i think what is going to happen, again guesswork, in the next two weeks or so we should see a filing from pfizer for 5 to 11 year olds. the fda will probably take two to three weeks to review the data. my hope, this is really hope, before halloween my 9 year old gets his first shot if everything goes well. it could slip a little bit, but that's the timeline. for younger kids, all of that probably under 5, probably a month behind. maybe by the end of november,

into december for kids under 5. >> it is such reassuring news for the white nick willed parents of kids under 12. dr. jha and jonathan are both staying around. jonathan will get wet, but we're going to ask him, we're going inside the nicky might have been auj disinformation. it is disinformation of international proportion brought on by one nicki minaj, a threat that's become serious enough the white house is now involved. we will tell you about it on the other side. side by rootmetrics. and our customers rated us #1 for network quality in america according to j.d. power. number one in reliability, 16 times in a row. most awarded for network quality, 27 times in a row. proving once again that nobody builds networks like verizon. that's why we're building 5g right, that's why there's only one best network. what happens when we welcome change? we can make emergency medicine possible at 40,000 feet.

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this is the story jonathan lemire already alluded to. the white house is stepping cautiously into one of what is potentially, one of the wildest and most impactful threats to vaccine disinformation yet. offering nicki minaj, super star, a phone call with one of its doctors to answer any questions it might have about the safety and efficacy and potential side effects of covid vaccines. the rapper has faced widespread criticism in many corners, praise in others -- you can get where -- for spreading false information after tweeting on monday an unproven claim about a side effect to a vaccine ai long with an account by her cousin's friend. we are back with dr. jha and jonathan. first, dr. jha, did she tweet about something that is a thing in terms of side effects for any of the covid vaccines? >> no, it is not a thing. she talked about her cousin's friend who had impotence and

sounds like, you know, what she i think described as swollen testicle. these are not side effects. i mean that's pretty classic of an infection. there are other things, cancer, torsion. there are things that cause those. vaccines have never been shown to cause them and covid-19 vaccines do not cause those things. >> let's give nicki minaj the benefit of a doubt. she is an iconic super star with a huge platform, more than 22 million followers who she is in regular contact with. how is the white house trying to turn it into an opportunity, jonathan, to make turn her into someone fox news has now exploited and turned into a foil for their skepticism about vaccines? will she take them up on the offer of a conversation with one of their doctors? >> she said she was not going to

the met gala because she was not vaccinate and she was doing research, and about her cousin's friend and his unfortunate issue. she got ahead of herself there, but when we asked her this morning, this afternoon in the press briefing about nicki minaj, jen psaki said a white house official, in fact, reached out to her staff, they wanted to talk with her, they would be happy to put her on the phone with a physician, talk her through the vaccine, why it was safe and wouldn't cause those sort of side effects to alleviate any concerns she might have. going further when we asked, general sake said, look, ideally perhaps even she could be used if she was convinced to take the vaccine that it is safe, she could use her platform to spread correct information about the vaccine rather than this misinformation because you're right, that's the issue here. i mean initially it was sort of you could almost -- parts of the story can be dismissed with a

chuck will. lord knows twitter has had its fun with it but it is a serious thing yes she has a large platform, where there's a lot of vaccine hesitancy throughout the country and people listen to her and some people might be more reluctant to get the shot because of her tweet. the white house is trying to head that off at the pass and they're saying, look, if it is her or anyone else like her would like to have clarifying information of the vaccine, we would be happy to give them a call. >> look, dr. jha, i think this story is important on two levels. one, what fox news did with it. we have had four nights, tucker carlson has mid a plea if he is viewed in trinidad to have nicki minaj's cousin's friend orr friend's cousin with the symptoms to call in, talk about his symptoms. two, because she was expressing concerns that are probably -- she said something that probably resonates, and i wonder where you think we are in terms of how many -- what do you think the

numbers look like now in terps terms of hard-core anti-vax. if you are not heartbroken by pregnant moms in 20s and 30s dying, you may not ever get the shot. but there is still this chunk of scared and skeptical and maybe people getting disinformation. how big do you think the two groups are at this point? >> yeah. first and foremost, i would say we should not be criticizing or dunking on nicki minaj. i mean, look, she described an experience of somebody who made a connection in their own mind. people after vaccines get into car accidents because people get into car accidents and they may have been vaccinated. it doesn't mean those things are related. she made a point, and think we should be respectful and engage with her. i love the fact the white house has reached out. i would be happy to talk to her. i think any physician who has been in this would be happy to do it. you know, in terms of your question about these two groups, there is only i think a very small group of people who really are anti-vax in the way we think about it. i think the rest are hesitant,

unclear they would benefit, worried about the side effects, people who i think would actually be moved quite a bit if people like nicki minaj but others came out and talked about their own vaccine experience and a positive one, which is what most people who have gotten vaccinated have had. >> dr. jha, can you pull the thread forward for us a little bit? i know you are quoted in an article about some of the regional trends that are shaping up. i think you talk about watching for the booster recommendation. the reality is boosters are probably going to be something that a sub set of the currently vaccinated take, the same with shots for kids. maybe everyone that's vaccinated won't decide to proceed with vaccinating their young children. the numbers of 12 to 18 year olds suggest there's a drop-off. where are we heading in terms of the trends that you can already track regionally and population wise with the vaccinated, with the fact that back to school has gone much better so far, knock on some wood, in vaccinated states and counties? where do you see this playing out in the coming weeks and

months? >> yeah, you know, i really do worry about increasingly having two americas. one america which is not only pretty well vaccinated, but they're the ones getting boosters, they're the ones where kids are vaccinated, schools are putting in good policies. and another part of america where they're going to continue to see large numbers of cases and lots of infections and schools shutting down. this is not what we want. by the way, we don't -- even though it feels like two americas we all actually turns out live in one america, and it is really important we get this right. so we have to put in our efforts, not just in the communities already doing well but really in places that are not. there have been some rays of hope in all of this, right. we have seen it in louisiana, arkansas, mississippi, with upticks in vaccinations but not nearly enough. we need political leaders and other types of leaders to really talk about the benefits of vaccines. >> jonathan, i keep thinking about the president's speech with the vaccine mandates. the ones who would benefit the most from it are the ones so far most vocally opposed

politically. how are they navigating that? >> right. people who probably didn't even listen to the president that day, and they said -- so that was part of jen psaki's argument today, that the white house recognizes there's a part of the country that won't follow president biden's advice because they don't think he was legitimately elected based on the conspiracy theories of donald trump and others. so it is important to have others tout the vaccine, maybe they would have more resonance. you heard from the president when he rolled out the vaccine mandates, and it reiterates something he said today. i was in the speech that he gave related to the economic agenda. he said, look, we have the vaccines, it is our way out. those not vaccinated are endangering themselves and loved ones but all of us, too. potentially giving fuel to new variants, threatening all of us and our health and that you could tell that anger really came through there. they're doing whatever they can

by any means necessary to get that message out, including a phone call and perhaps meeting with nicki minaj. >> we'll keep watching. we'll put you on the nicki minaj beat, jonathan. thank you both so much for having this conversation with us. nicki minaj included. a clinton-linked democrat was just charged with a crime by trump appointed special counsel john durham, the very same crime for which some of donald trump's closest allies were recently let off the hook. more on that story next. i'm so glad you're ok, sgt. houston.

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there's breaking news in the john durham investigation. remember that? into the origins of the russia probe. attorney michael sussman, who represented the democratic national committee in 2016, has been indicted in that investigation for allegedly making false statements to the fbi. the indictment claims sussman, quote, lied about the capacity in which he was providing allegations to the fbi, a potential cyber links between the russian bank and a company owned by former president donald trump. remember, this was the investigation that so frustrated donald trump as he grumbled about his 2020 election loss. trump issued a statement back in march saying, where is durham? he is a living, breathing human being? will there ever be a durham report. joining us, mike schmidt, also

msnbc contributor. tell us what this is? >> i read this twice. it is a little dense and parts are not entire clearly and it will take us a few days to suss it out. at the heart of it, as you were saying, is there's substantial evidence in the indictment this work was doing work for the clinton campaign and was doing -- was working for the clinton campaign when he walks in the door at the fbi to give the fbi this information about a back channel which the indictment lays out. turns out to not exist. the reason why the indictment says that is important is because the fbi looked at him and thought that he was an average citizen walking in that wasn't representing someone and launched an investigation into this. and in the days and weeks that followed, media reported on the fact that this was being

investigated, and at the independent of the day the indictment says there was nothing to this back channel. >> so bill barr went to italy, people that were sort of in the trump orbit were talking about the durham probe all the while the mueller probe went on. you know better than anyone, the mueller investigation charged many with lying, with other crimes. is this everything that durham found? >> we don't know, but what you are hitting on is part of the perception problem that this case will have. now, there's a lot of evidence laid out in this case. there is -- i don't think this indictment would have gone forward if merrick garland didn't think there was something to it. this is the -- you know, he could have stopped this. but this will always suffer from the fact that donald trump talked about it so much and that bill barr, you know, made his views on these issues very clear. because of that and because of

trump's continued talking about it, and this is why people advise presidents not to talk about ongoing investigations, it will always suffer from that perception no matter what the underlying facts are, because it will look as though this facts . it will look as though this is what donald trump wanted. this is a prosecutor that donald trump wanted to look at this issue and donald trump made his view on this issue now. >> is it also true that everyone from john brennen to hillary clinton, many people close to her were scrutinized and under investigation by john durham for years. the only people that's been charged is mr. sossamon and another fbi lawyer. >> that's true. that's something critics of this investigation will point to, well, what was the purpose of this investigation. a low level fbi lawyer had been charged. this is the second person to the best of my knowledge that's been

charged with connection of this stuff. at the end of the day so much to do about nothing and people will argue if you have special councils and they'll look at something and they'll eventually find some sort of wrong-dong because they are spending so much time looking at a narrow issue. this type of criminality or problem would not have been discovered and would not have been a typical prosecution for the department. >> mike schmidt, thank you for spending some time with us today to talk about it. a quick break for us, we'll be right back. a quick break for us, we'll be right back ♪ ♪ i know the best coffee spot in town. i can make a rustic cabin feel modern. i am a guidebook for guests. i can make an indoorsy person, outdoorsy. i give families a home, not just a place to stay. i am a vrbo host.

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roger stone, the political consultant and convicted felon was pardoned by donald trump. someone came to his door, here is that moment as it happens. >> hold on a second, i have a process server at my front door about to serve me the latest lawsuit. >> that's life as roger stone i guess. that was the sound of him being served as part of a lawsuit filed by seven capitol police officers over the event of january 6th. stone had not been accused of

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. "the beat" with our friend

alicia mendez in for ari melber. we start with donald trump siding with january 6th rioters. d.c. law enforcement taking no chances, new fencing is up outside the capitol. workers installing it over night and preparations for this saturday's so-called justice for j-6 rally. today former president trump out with a statement expressing sympathies for them. >> our hearts and minds are with the people being prosecuted so unfairly related to the january 6th insurrection. january 6th was not a protest, it was an insurrection and an attack on our democracy. these rioters have been charged from felony and ranging from assault and