we are coming on the air with breaking news as we speak the jury reaching a verdict in the sex trafficking trial of r. kelly, r&b megastar. you may remember opening arguments were on august 18. we heard closing arguments end of last week r. kelly did not take the witness stand on his own behalf. i want to get to msnbc's ron allen who is outside the courtroom in brooklyn.

ron, we just got this case, i believe, the end of last week, right? when do we expect the verdict actually be read sometimes i know the judge will give time for family members, et cetera, to get to the courthouse >> reporter: exactly we saw the defense team come in about 10 minutes ago, so unsure of exactly what the timing is in the courthouse the jury has been deliberating for about nine hours four hours friday and they continued this morning seven men, five women. we don't know what they've been deliberating because it's been happening behind closed doors. we only heard a video feed of the jury, and it's not a trial where you can actually sit in the courtroom. he faces nine counts, including ra racketeering and sex trafficking charges that could land him in jail for about nine years if he is guilty of all of this

it says r. kelly was running a criminal enterprise, sort of like a mob boss. it was not about his music and his brand, it was always about his own sexual gratification, about recruiting, finding, bringing to him young women and girls, and in one case there was a male accuser as well this goes on beginning in the 1990s, the early 1990s, and continued right up until 2018, the last case. he faces the case where six women told absolutely horrific stories about being imprisoned, about being sexually humiliated, about being just abused in ways that are really difficult to contemplate. today, for example, we finally got a sense of the videotapes that r. kelly had been taking. part of what he's charged with is making all these pornographic movies, these sex tapes with various women. today the judge released audio of a couple of the tapes we had not been able to see these tapes because the judge

ruled that they were just too offensive and too graphic. and when you read the transcript and listen to them, it's easy to see why. it's just unbelievable stuff, just incredible stuff that this man was pultting these women through. again, this was going on allegedly year after year after year all across the country. the classic situation was that he would go to a concert with his entourage, find young girls and women who he was interested in, give them a phone number, and the relationship would begin and continue as the years went on, bringing them to his house, to his music studio, so on and so forth again, we don't know the exact timing of when we're going to hear from the jury i would expect it's going nto b any minute now again, one count of racketeering, eight counts of bringing women across state lines, transporting them, so on and so forth, for purposes of

sex, and he faces, again, decades, more than 100 years in jail if he's convicted of all these things and the jury has only been deliberating -- because the jury has been only deliberating for about nine hours, one has to expect there is going to be a guilty verdict here in some of this the prosecution in their closing summation went through, line by line, issue by issue, word by word to make sure it was very plain to the jury the many different ways they could find him guilty and convict him again, the witnesses told such horrifying and graphic stories that it's difficult to see how they don't believe it. it's just difficult to see how that might happen. ha hallie >> we should be clear, we don't know what the verdict is, we don't have advance knowledge of what that verdict is ron, did you say the jury is in the courtroom as we speak right now?

>> reporter: that is unclear you can't take a phone into the courtroom. as a reporter, you can watch the proceedings on a video monitor that's on the sixth floor. you go down to the third floor where you can make a phone call. so there is a bit of a delay in all of this. some of that is because of covid restrictions, some of it is because of security. again, we will know. as soon as there is a verdict, we will get word almost instantaneously, as quick as we can. >> i just want viewers to know that as we're here on the air that this is breaking as we speak. we have a producer who is there that is reporting back everything that is happening in that courtroom, ron. you make some important points, including that r. kelly faces potentially decades in prison. am i hearing yelling are there protests i just want to get a sense of what that noise is behind you. >> throughout the trial, there's been a dozen r. kelly supporters some are extended family,

supporters, fans they've been here day in and day out playing very loud music, that's what you hear today they have a megaphone and they're voicing their support for r. kelly that's what you hear down the way here they believe that he is essentially being railroaded the defense argument is that these women were in real relationships with r. kelly, that the relationships went poorly, that they feel things didn't go well for them and that they're trying to make money off of r. kelly now. you may remember the documentary "surviving r. kelly. so many people are surviving off r. kelly is the way he turned that phrase. basically that was the defense over the period of a couple days they said, these women are lying, they're all trying to make money, and r. kelly is the victim because he treated these women like gold is the phrase the defense attorney used. again, we'll see there is a lot of -- the way this case was structured, there

is a broad range of ways that he could be convicted because, again, of this racketeering charge, this umbrella charge that involves crimes permitted as far back as the early '90s to a couple years ago. we'll see how this plays out we should know soon, hal lie. >> i'm going to ask you to stand by as i bring in a prosecutor. ron made a good point. we were talking about this here as we wait for trial verdicts to come in, this jverdict came in quick, the jury deliberating for about nine hours you heard testimony from nine women, two men, including one of the women who appeared in that documentary we just mentioned, a 2019 "surviving r. kelly" doc who talked about what her

experience was with the singer i turn to you here for your legal expertise and perspective on what you think it means that it was a relatively short deliberation >> we never know, but i couldn't agree with ron more. generally when you see a verdict, like you pointed out, with this type of complexity racketeering is difficult for some lawyers to understand, let alone jurors after a month's worth of testimony, they only asked a few questions, asked to see a few pieces of evidence i think ron is right generally when you see that, it generally will be a verdict of guilty usually when you see something that would be a defense verdict, it would be kind of longer and drawn out because they're deliberating, and they're discussing, what about this, what about that? keep in mind when you have a unanimous verdict and they agree and go through that 7-page verdict sheet, it's probably going to be guilty with only nine hours of deliberation >> we should note we're not

seeing live pictures here on screen obviously these are stills, these are images from previously we are getting information from what's happening in the courtroom as people who are, as sometimes happens, scrambling in and out of the room. let me bring in cynthia, an msnbc analyst. cynthia, as it relates to r. kelly, this was a case that captivated so many people in this country because of the extreme nature of the charges against him, the raw and emotional testimony from the women who were testifying and speaking out even before this case even began against r. kelly, too >> right you know, this is a different kind of case because we're used to sometimes looking at these cases that are he said-she saids. this case is a they said this case is a lot of women and it's enablers and documentary evidence this is a pretty solid

comprehensive case that took the prosecutor three hours to sum up, there was so much evidence i would agree with what you now have been hearing. this is a pretty short verdict for such a comprehensive case with so many victims and so much evidence at first i'll tell you, honestly, we've had some interesting notes from the jury that's come in in the last nine hours, and i was beginning to kind of wonder a little bit about that but now it seems like this is a quick verdict to me for such a complicated case and i feel pretty good about it. >> i think ron allen is still with us. ron, another big name that came up during this case often was aleah, who people will remember was a huge r&b star back in the day. there were allegations that kelly obtained a fake i.d. for her back in 1994 when she was

un underage can you talk about some of that? >> reporter: the allegation is he met aleah when she was 12 or 13 years old and began a relationship with her. married her when she was 15, and this was a pattern that he took in young singers and groomed them and mentored them, and according to prosecutors, sexually molested them over a long period of time. aleah was 15 r. kelly and his entourage allegedly made some arrangements to get a fake i.d. for her saying she was 18. they allegedly bribed a city official in chicago, got the marriage license and had what the prosecutors would say was a sham wedding sometime in the mid-1990s, and r. kelly fearing that aleah was pregnant, felt that if he was married to her the consequences would be less severe we know the marriage was

annulled a few years later and then tragically aleah died in a plane crash. her case is essentially charge 1, a bribery charge because of this whole idea of tryingto ge a fake i.d. for her. you have to think about who r. kelly was in the 1990s there was probably no bigger r&b star of that era than r. kelly people nowadays may not quite remember all of that this guy was really just an incredible superstar, a m megastar i think it was like three or four grammies, countless other awards, tens of millions of records, and so many people of a certain generation say that he was the soundtrack of their lives in the background, all the smooth r&b music that was just -- it was extraordinarily popular. some of that is lost now i often said if this was happening in the 1990s, this trial, there would be police and

crowds everywhere. it's a testament to how much his star has faded and how much he has been disgraced regardless of the outcome of this trial during the past years so that this is where we are now again, it's just an incredible -- it's just an incredible fall from grace, and it's something that, again, remember it was rumored for years and years that r. kelly was allegedly up to no good, had a lot of relationships with young, underage girls. it was an open thing that was out there that trailed him everywhere prosecutors have been going after him literally for decades. there was a trial back in 2008 where he was found not guilty, he was acquitted on all the charges, in part because one of the key witnesses in that case wouldn't testify, a young, underage girl, wouldn't testify for whatever reason. now you fast-forward to 2021, and, again, the prosecutors are

after him again. they have compiled a mountain of evidence, and they are -- they have spread this -- it's almost like a trap that they have spread out there to try and convict him of something under this big racketeering charge and again, the prosecutors have been meticulous in trying to go through the evidence to essentially give the jury a map, a blueprint of details how they can convict him and send him to prison for a very long time. >> kristen, let me ask you, he faces charges at least in two states, illinois and minnesota the trials for those have not been set regardless of what we find out today, which ron has laid out these federal racketeering charges. what happens to the charges in these states against r. kelly? >> they're going to be active. it's my understanding that based on reports, at least the one in illinois is actually on hold to

wait for the disposition of this regardless of whether he's found guilty or not guilty or guilty of some charges and not of others, he's going to be extradited right away down to illinois to face charges there >> cynthia, let me go to you for some final thoughts here this verdict could come in at any second, as ron allen rightfully noted we don't know when it will actually be read in the courtroom, because again, we have no cam reras inside. this is not a live televised trial. it hasn't been over the course of a month ago when it was brought to us live cynthia, what should we be watching for >> we obviously should be watching for what the convictions are, but let me say what your viewers need to know these are not only underage girls who were involved with r. kelly, these are underage girls

who were trafficked, who were abused, who were humiliated, who were told they had to call him daddy, who were told they aren't allowed to look up into anybody's eyes one woman was put into a room, the door was locked. she went there as a radio a announcer to get an interview and she ended up being raped by r. kelly, sort of waking up in the middle not realizing what was happening to her people were forced to sign ndas. these are not just groupies who were underan dsunderage, these e underage girls who were kidnapped and raped. that's why the prosecutors have put the detail in front of this jury i think they've done a magnificent job in a very difficult situation. >> kristen, we all referenced

what a complicated case this was. can you talk about that for people who aren't as averse to this >> sure. on one side you have r. kelly standing with criminal charges of racketeering. racketeering basically involves an enterprise, a group of individuals who enabled r. kelly. this can be very difficult for nonlegal minds to understand how such a crime, which involves a number of people, but yet they're only looking at the criminal intent of just one, and that's r. kelly. but, really, once you break it down, and i think the prosecutor did so beautifully in her close argument, you break it down into the elements which is, look, we're only looking at the criminal intent of r. kelly. it was r. kelly who, through the help of other people, was able to rape to silence these women, to kidnap them, to engage in this type of criminalistic

episode, trafficking these women. >> i'm sorry to interrupt you, kristen, but kristen, cynthia, and i think ron allen is with us as well, although i think he's talking to his producer, we want to share this with you breaking news from a couple minutes ago. based on the reuters report, we understand the jury of r. kelly has found him guilty of racketeering and the sexual assault case that's been going on since august. our team is in the courtroom it's not easily accessible, you can't have your cell phone in there. but like kristen and cynthia have suggested, it was a relatively short situation with the jury, it appears that r. kelly has been found guilty of this racketeering charge

rocke >> reporter: racketeering was the first thing they were going to return with, and guilty it carries a 20-year sentence. racketeering encompasses so many things that the jury found r. kelly did, from bribery, to sexual coercion, to -- as >> excuse me, but as we get the information, we want to be transparent with that. we have found that the racketeering charge he was found guilty please go ahead. >> there are nine counts altogether racketeering is the big one, and there are eight others of those eight other counts, some of them were subsumed under the charge of racketeering, so it's likely he will be found guilty of some of those other subsets of charges they're broken down by the

indications of the accusers. it may take some time for the jury to read out the rest of its verdict. this was a creative charge that the prosecution came up with to put all these alleged misdeeds under, again, dating back to the 1990s almost to the present day, involving many, many women who were brought to r. kelly's home or studio, imprisoned in one case, drugged, sexually assaulted, just horrific stories of what these young women were telling. the prosecution made a point to tell the jury -- she said, these women's lives should matter. see them for who they are. they were women from humble beginnings, for the most part, women of color, which is different than what we've seen in most of these cases, so at one point there was a question about whether they would be believed however, this jury turned in a

verdict of guilty, so they were believed the prosecution asked the jury to see them as young women so many of them were 16, 17 at the time when this all happened. so many of them were aspiring music stars who saw r. kelly as just this idolic figure. they thought this was their big break, their turning point, so they were willing to do almost anything for his favor and to follow him, and they thought this was going to be their dream that, for so many of them, as prosecutors put it, just turned into an absolute nightmare it's really hard to read through the descriptions, it was difficult to sit there and listen to what these women were saying but they did and the jury believed them, and now we have this the racketeering charge, again, carries 20 years there are eight other counts that carry 10 and 20 years -- it all adds up to the rest of his life in prison, and as you were

pointing out earlier, yes, there is another federal case in illinois that has to do with child pornography charges, obstruction charges, sexual assault charges. there are also state-level cases in cook county, illinois they all have to do with alleged misconduct with young women or underaged girls. mark kelly han in custody for the last 20 years. he was denied bail this trial was supposed to happen a year ago. it was delayed by covid, but through all that, despite his pleas, he's being held in prison, and he will remain in prison according to this, he never it paerchl was going to get out of prison for the rest of his life. >> ron,ly do you have any expectation? you talked about the women who

we know he was bringing about what he was charged with have you spoken to any of these women? >> i have not. this case is very, very significant. there is a racial dynamic to it that makes this somewhat unique, but it's the same pattern, the same thing of a powerful individual, powerful man being brought down by women who would not have been believed 10, 15, certainly 20 years ago who have sent it. if you believe these women, you

have to say yes to all these charges. by saying guilty to racketeering, that is essentially what they did. the prosecution left no doubt. and the defense here lasted all of a couple of days. the defense amounted to friends, associates of r. kelly coming in saying what a wonderful guy he is, that they spent all this time with him and never saw him doing all this, and of course the prosecution unfolded that he never saw them all that much and he just collapsed. >> as to whether we'll see the women involved, i would think so because of add voluntary kalts, and trying to get my arm around this you had to remember who r. kelly was. this -- he was larger than life.

in so many homes, he was the voice. that song "i believe ib can fly" that anthem that people call it. he was not just a performer but he was a songwriter. there were so many other musicians who were flocking to him like aleah and so many others many were like aleah and brought nightmares >> we can hear that noise behind you, ron you talked about some supporters of r. kelly showing up at the courthouse you're looking live, by the way, at the left side of the screen of microphones in front of the courthouse, so if anybody walks out, anybody on the defense, anybody from the attorney's office, for example. it is every indication right now that the rest of the charges are

being read out, perhaps instructions are being delivered for the next phase of this we'll bring you live updates from the courthouse as we get them with r. kelly being found guilty of rabcketeering at the courthouse you're looking at in brooklyn right now kristen, can you tell us what the sentencing will look like? >> as ron indicated, he can face up to 20 years from racketeering, and six years of the sex trafficking charges. he could spend the rest of his life in jail one thing i would like to point out is this is so significant. even if just for the racketeering shows that these young women were believed. black women, black children are disproportionately represented among victims of sexual assault. only one in four black girls are

sexually abused before they reach the age of 18. one in five black women are survivors, yet only one in 15 black women actually report. and i think it has something to do with the slowness by which the legal system tends to respond to people of color, the needs of people of color, and when you hear that a man, a very powerful man, as ron pointed out, was convicted of racketeering and convicted of sexual assault for so many young women and of one man, too. these women spoke and that man was convicted. that means the jury was beginning to understand the effects of sexual trauma on victims, and most importantly, on victims of color. >> that is such an important

point, kristen, and it says a lot about where we are now even culturally as a society where we would have been 10 or 15 years ago. cynthia, i wonder if you want to jump in on that. >> i see where cases are evolving these rape cases need to go to the enablers he was not able to do this unless people were handing out phone numbers, unless somebody was locking the door to that room to that radio announcer someone was getting the fake papers that said aleah was 18 and they ended up getting married. he didn't do it all by myself. we need to move these cases, i feel, to enablers. i believe that's the next area we need to push that involve, and this case looks like it's ripe for that kind of evaluation the only other thing i would say should happen next -- >> cynthia, i have to interrupt

you. i'm sorry to interrupt you, but i have to share this with you, with kristen and ron we have now learned that r. kelly has been found guilty on all nine counts that he faced. so r. kelly guilty on nine counts, including that racketeering charge. sentencing will be on may 4th. that is the latest from the courthouse that you're looking at in brooklyn we know that the next phase of this sentencing will happen now, months from now. as suspected, guilty on all those counts let's see if anybody stops to take any questions here. can we dip in and listen just in case we are going to stick around and see if we end up hearing anything from some of the representatives who just walked out of the courtroom there as we believe the proceedings are

either over or close to being over i want to bring back ron, kristen, cynthia kristen, we talked about this. we've been in this breaking coverage now for 29 minutes and 46 seconds since we've known that verdict has come in guilty on all nine counts against him, r. kelly. not unexpected based on your perspective once we learned that he was guilty of that racketeering charge, right >> 100%, yeah, exactly not only just based on the racketeering charges, but as ron kind of alluded to, cynthia as well, the explosive testimony of these young women and men. >> i wanted to say, and cynthia, i'm sorry to cut you off, or you were sharing your perspective before the breaking news r. kelly was the one on trial here, he's the one who was found guilty i can hear what sounds like talking inside my ear outside that courthouse, so i'm going to ask my director who is speaking,

whether it might be r. kelly's attorneys. we'll bring that to you live if we can get it. do you think, cynthia, it would have been made a difference if r. kelly had testified on his own behalf, or no? >> i don't think it would have made a difference, but let me tell you this. nobody has to testify. you have a constitutional right and it's something we need to protect. but having said that, jurors expect it. and they sometimes, no matter what people say, it's an ugly truth, is that juries do expect it, especially in a case where there's this much evidence i would say with the over overwhelming amount of evidence in this case, it didn't make a difference, but it looked very bad. let me just say 100 times and 100 times, nobody has an obligation to testify. it's a constitutional right that we need to protect, that we

should never water down because it's part of the strength of our system we've had enough watering down of our constitutional rights for me, frankly. i'm sorry, sometimes jurors do hold it against each other, but i believe it's a practical matter that they do. >> if we still have ron allen, i would love to get a sense of what's happening outside the courtroom as this is all coming in to us here. >> i think it was some of r. kelly's defense lawyers who were leaving. they tend to go to the park every day like that. they never had much to say and i'm not sure what they would have to say now. there is some children playing in the park over there it's a lovely afternoon here in new york city. so there's that as well. but what is silent are the supporters who have been out here so long playing r. kelly's music and having like a street party most evenings. we're not hearing anything from them, and i'm sure they will insist he was treated unfairly,

so on and so forth but this nine-count guilty verdict is just -- it's not just nine counts, because, again, there were like 14 other charges, underlying criminal charges that he was found guilty of that was proven by the prosecution. it's just a complete victory for the prosecution, a complete victory for those women. it's just a complete -- r. kelly, as i said before, he's going to prison and he's probably going to be in prison for the rest of his life and he still has a number of court cases to go. we're seeing now if the prosecution comes out to talk about this as they may do now that it's over, but at this point it looks like the court session is, for the most part, over you like to hear from jurors whether they will speak is on open question. they have been anonymous

they have not been skequestered but the way the trial was set up, we couldn't seen see them on the video feed unclear if they will have anything to say about all this, but that's where we are now. just a huge victory for the prosecution, and one, again, that was not expected. you just had to sit through a few days of this and hear some of the testimony from some of these women, and it was obvious and clear that r. kelly was in a lot of trouble and that they had evidence that they got from a raid of his home of documents he had stored in a safe that were examples of letters that he had these women write that were all collateral letters, blackmail letters. he had sex tapes there that the prosecution was able to obtain and show the jury. they had phone records, again, going back decades and decades that put the women and r. kelly in the same place at the same time to, again, help the jury

see that this, in fact, did happen where they said it did in chicago or los angeles, whatever the case may be. there were mountains and mountains of evidence r, some o it basic testimony from these women, like call logs and so on. some of it was evidence r. kelly had in his own possession like these sex tapes that showed in real graphic detail what was going on >> we are getting word now -- by the way, we should note that's gloria allred at the microphones getting ready to speak to the media. we should note that the defense attorneys for r. kelly are telling roeporters that r. kelly himself didn't have much to say about the verdict because he was, quote, shocked. kristen, if he had been paying attention, should he have been so shocked >> absolutely not. keep in mind, i think one of the things to remember is going back even to that interview with r.

kelly from guilt king, when you say he was shocked, i'm not surprised. but just as a human being even listening to the courts about this trial, it is absurd that he would be shocked again, this is the mind of a serial sexual predator for him to be shocked that he's being held accountable after decades of these women crying out for help and not being heard is unreasonable. but, thankfully, he's held accountable. >> kristen givens, cynthia auxney and ron allen, i want to thank you for being here for nearly 40 minutes of breaking coverage r. kelly is found guilty of nine counts of racketeering and sexual assault case. we have a lot more to get to on this show, at the nation's

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fire. (horse neighing) elton: nas? yeah? spare a pound? what? you know, bones, shillings, lolly? lolly? bangers and mash? i'm... i'm sorry? i don't have any money. you don't look broke. elton: my rocket is skint! it's interesting enough to say there are a ton of moving parts going on in the building below me on capitol hill that's because the house is set to debate today on that trillion-dollar infrastructure bill with the vote slated for thursday remember, that vote was supposed to happen today and got pushed in a couple hours from now, lss than two hours, they'll talk about the human infrastructure

bill by the way, 3.5 trillion probably going to change if that weren't enough, you have the senate voting on a debt ceiling bill to keep the government from going into shutdown, something republicans will probably oppose give us an idea of where things stand? are we stuck with this infighting and trust issues between moderates and progress s progressives with president biden trying to act as the peacekeeper? >> reporter: we are stuck, hallie i am near the center of joe manchin's office because he is key to all these negotiations. we just caught up with him a few moments in the hallway and i asked him if he has yet to give the white house, democratic leadership, a top line number on

how much he is willing to spend. this is what he said >> in a nutshell, we need to be looking at, are we moving more to a social refinement, if you will i'm concerned about basically a society moving towards more of an entitlement mentality versus a rewarding mentality. that's it in a nutshell. >> reporter: that sounds like you're not very supportive at this point of this legislation >> no, no, we want to work there are a lot of good things that can be done i'm just being honest with you i have concerns about -- i know my work ethic, i know the basic area i came from, i know the people i represent, and we're just concerned about the entitlement mentality versus a rewarding mentality and in taking care of those who can't work for themselves. there are some good stuff in there and we're working diligently >> reporter: he says there's good stuff in there but he still won't say how much he's willing

to spend i also asked if he's given the progressives and the house of representatives a commitment that he's going to support this bill at the end of the day he said, no, i don't give a commitment to anyone except the president. i asked if he gave that commitment to the president, a question he did not answer now, this is all happening in the house of representatives at this point this week why is governor manchin so important in these negotiations and why are we still talking about him? it's because those house progressives, they say they need a commitment from moderates, including senator joe manchin, before they're willing to support this bipartisan infrastructure bill as well, and that gets back to that trust question that you asked at the top, hallie. it's not a distrust, necessarily, just between moderates and progressives, but also a distrust between chambers house leaders don't trust people like joe manchin, and to a degree, even people like kyrsten

sinema hallie >> we'll get into that with a key progressive leader i had one congresswoman, debbie dingell, say she wanted president biden to take role today and address the entire caucus she doesn't think it's going to happen we know he'll be having meetings, taking calls tonight and maybe tomorrow give us an outline of what we think he may do and what he needs to do here >> reporter: the president said a few moments ago he has meetings, this evening, he has some tomorrow. but there are no more public events today there could be some tomorrow and wednesday he travels to chicago to make a sales pitch for his vaccine mandates press secretary jen psaki said a few moments ago that the president is very engaged in these talks. he is not a wallflower, he is engaged in the back and forth, in the push and pull going between the two sides, or three

sides, even, in this case if you talk about the democrat progressives, moderates and republicans particularly on the senate side. so the president is involved, but the indication that white house officials have given is that they see him playing the role as sort of honest broker. lee ann talks about that trust deficit on all sides the white house hopes to position the president as someone who can fill that void in that trust gap that can bring these parties together after a few months of stalemate here the white house has been taking a white house approach through august, and part of that was to let schumer and pelosi handle it the way they saw fit, but there was also other issues happening. i want to bring in congressman

bowman, a member of the caucus thank you for speaking to me >> thank you for having me >> let me ask about joe manchin who said he is concerned about a, quote, entitlement mentality, unquote, about these votes thoughts >> i think it's important to look at any level of quality in our nation even on top of the pandemic you add racial lines along gender lines, add on top of that a pandemic, on top of that the climate crisis we're dealing with hurricane ida just recently destroyed my district. both bills, the bipartisan infrastructure bill, and the reckonciliation bill, are both part of president biden's agenda from the very beginning. he's working aligned with us,

chuck schumer, nancy pelosi and myself, to make sure we can lift children out of poverty, making sure we can save 43 million seniors from spending an enormous amount of money on their prescription drugs, making sure child care is universal, pre-k is universal, community college is universal the bill doesn't go far enough in terms of green infrastructure if we don't go green right now, we're going to see more consistent storms, more severe storms, more death from climate change and more destruction. it's either invest now or pay later with human life and cost that is enormous >> based on that answer, is it your contention, congressman, that senator manchin just doesn't get it when he says things like this is an entitlement mentality and that's his concern? >> that's why it's important for us to have conversations we need to sit down, we need to

have dialogue, we need to have debate and we need to disagree, but then we need to understand that every dollar you give to child care equals $7 in terms of growth it improves education and economic outcomes. let me say one other thing this is not 3.5 trillion tomorrow, this is 3.5 trillion over ten years, and we have policies that will be offset, so the actual cost is zero. >> can i quickly nerd out with you for one second, but speaker pelosi has said it is self-evident that that social spending bill probably will not end up being $3.5 trillion i wonder how low you're willing to go and about these discussions on means testing, for things like community college, debates keep the size of the bill through means testing? is that something you would support? >> let's see what the targeted investments look like and let's

see what the final numbers are >> so you're not closing the door on it that's interesting >> before coming to congress, let me say this. i worked in education for 20 years, and i've seen the investments in early childhood education, child care, community college on economic outcomes, right? as we negotiate the final number, which i hope is 3.5 or north of 3.5, we have to also be strategic and transparent with how these investments are going to yield tremendous results for our economy and deal with the climate crisis that we are in the middle of. >> would you keepthese discussions in there >> we'll see >> congresswoman jayapal says

there is distrust between the democrats. is she right and why >> i haven't had the pleasure of meeting senator manchin or having the conversation with him face to face, so i can't say i don't trust him. i don't know him i want to get to know my colleagues, i want to have conversations and dialogue and debate with them on these issues and many other issues because the american people sent us here to work together to govern let me also say this the american people overwhelmingly overwhelmingly support the reconciliation package, and that going concurrently with the gif package, not bif before reconciliation. >> thank you congressman, for laying out where you stand, what you would like to see, what you hope will happen next. we appreciate your time. we are going back down to the white house where the president has been trying to send this message to vaccine

skeptics with a bit of a show and tell today getting the pfizer booster in public while reminding people who is eligible and who is not as we are seeing long lines in some places back again not all states starting the booster roll out i want to bring in the former fda commission e dr. scott gottlieb, author of the new book "uncontrolled spread: why covid crushed us and how we can defeat the next pandemic" doctor thank you for joining us. patiently, as we have been dealing with breaking news welcome to you. >> thanks for having me. >> as president biden was getting the booster he talked about the roughly quarter of u.s. adults who are still vaccine holdouts we have big headlines coming up on vaccine mandates including for health care workers in new york how does president biden reach the holdouts he has been trying to put in example and use the power of his presidential platform today getting a booster shot publicly today, et cetera it doesn't seem to be getting

through to a portion of the population. >> look, first we need to recognize that we are doing a really good job. i mean, 78% of adults over the age of 18 have had at least one dose of vaccine. most of them will complete the series a lot of people who remain unvaccinated in this country when you look at overall vaccination rates in the country are children who aren't eligible to be vaccinated n. terms of the americans, the adults who are still eligible to be vaccinated but haven't received the vaccination, 23% of adults, it is going to be difficult the reasons why people are choosing to go unvaccinate ready diverse. getting the next 2% of people vaccinated is going to be harder than getting the first 20% vaccinated i think the administration is going about it the right way trying to reach people in communities, using different messages and mess i thinkers you need to protect patients mandating the federal work force

is within their rights i think the controversial mandates are those on businesses with more than 100 employees you are going the see fault lines forming along that mandate. i don't know how much we are going to pick up for that. that's going to be a brisk debate. >> there is this discussion about the booster. you are a member of the pfizer board. the cdc director in the booster decision last week drew line between who should get a booster and who can get a booster. what happens if many of them say i am going the hold off for now in how does that complicate the overall fight against the pandemic here? >> i don't think it does i think the important thing is to get people vaccinated the vaccines have been effective at preventing severe disease and hospitalization and still offering consideration protection against infection as well even though we are seeing a rising number of breakthrough cases mostly mild and asymptomatic infections. the key is to get people who are unvaccinated vaccinated.

in terms of adults who have been vaccinated, i think it is important those over 65 consider getting a booster shot weesh seeing a rise in the number of older patients who were vaccinated a while ago getting breakthrough infections. i think they should get it for those under 65 who have health condition or work in occupations that put them in situations of excessive exposure like health care workers i think you should consider getting a booster heading into the fall and winter season. we are going to see the continued spread of this infection even we get through the delta surge. >> let's talk about the younger end of the population, specifically kids pfizer expecting to submit data and information to the fda on kids soon i assume that could mean the end of this week

>> the fda said review of that application is going to be a matter of weeks not months i interpret that as a four to six-week review. i think if things go well, if the fda supports that vaccine, you see it becoming available by the end of october, halloween, if it slips a little bit, maybe by november. i think once we are able to start vaccinating kids ages 5 to 11 that's going to relieve a lot of anxiety there are concerns people could bring a virus back into the home where they have vulnerable children i think it is a key step in getting vaccinations to work and for protecting children who remain at danger from getting covid. >> doctor, thank you. new crime numbers out from the fbi showing a significant

increase in the number of murders and manslaughters last year up nearly 30% compared the year before and showing violent crime overall was up more than 5%. this is the first annual increase in four years keep in mind, all this, looking at what happened before president biden was sworn into office i want to bring in nbc's justice correspondent, pete williams pete, talk through some of the highlights -- or you could say, the lowlights of that report. >> you are certainly right, those are the big numbers, the big 30% jump, the first time violent crime has been up in four years and the interesting thing is the data doesn't show it just in big cities, that this is a trend that's going on nationwide it's happening in cities that are small, medium sized, as much as it is in large cities so it seems to be something that's happening everywhere. and the data, of course, is just a blip, just one year. and many of the experts say they don't expect this trend will continue but nonetheless, it is alarming. >> why did they happen

is there any sense of what's behind these trends? >> remember, the fbi never says why. so we have to turn to the other experts. if they had to summarize it in one word, they would say covid it's a larger number of people at home because of lockdown, forced to stay home, idle hands, they say, are sometimes the source of evil blues, another factor from last year, a rise -- a big rise if gun sales, especially among first-time buyers. many of these experts say that's a wleettle combination some police chiefs also say one factor is that fewer police officers are on the street because of budget cuts, and also more people are being released on bail instead of being held until their trials when they have been arrested for violent offenses. >> can you do the context thing that you do so well for us, pete, specifically as relates to those statistics on the increase of number of murders up 30% compared to 2019 sounds like a whole heck of a lot, right put it in perspective.

>> it sounds like a lot because it came from a fairly slow, fairly low starting point. as dramatic as the increases are and the numbers to which they have rizzan it is still not as bad as the bad old days of the early '90s when we had drug-fuelled crime rates in some cities they are alarming philadelphia over the weekend set a record it's spike but experts don't think it will tin. as you say it is compared to a relatively low starting point. >> pete williams live in the newsroom breaking down those numbers for us. thanks the all of you watching this very busy very breaking newsy hour of hallie jackson reports. we will have highlights on twitter @hallie on msnbc as always we will see you back here tomorrow at 3:00 eastern, noon pacific

for now, "deadline: white house" begins right now. hi there, everyone it's 4:00 in new york. today's political environment has reached new lows, where one of the two major political parties has completed its transformation into an anti-truth party truth in fact do not apply in instances where they don't serve gop interests. it's a phenomenon we witnessed years ago from the disgraced, two-impeached expresident who at rally told his supporters not to believe their ice, not the believe their ears, to only believe him. now, nearly 11 months after the election of president joe biden, after multiple failed lawsuits, even after a deadly insurrection, the picking and choosing of facts by the gop more previous help than ever last week we saw the release of the results of arizona's fraudit. rather than be embarrassed or ashamed that the hunt for van boo, screenings of