♪♪ ♪♪ >> welcome to "meet the press daily," i'm chuck todd on what is of course another action-packed filled day on capitol hill. currently the defense secretary lloyd austin, mark milley had been appearing before the senate arms services committee testifying for the first time in public about the withdrawal from afghanistan. general milley defended his much talked about actions noting many members of the trump administration were very aware of what he did including the president's secretary of state. we will have much more on that hearing coming up. we will begin with the bigger story right now in american politics, democrats facing a serious reality check as they attempt to salvage president biden's agenda, avert a shutdown and stop a default on the debt. right now this minute joe manchin is set to meet with the president at the white house, he is there now, the meeting may have already begun, after

senator kyrsten sinema was at the white house earlier today. it's been nearly a week since biden last met with those two key senate moderates and we still don't know what will manchin support, what's his number. he said he would let biden know the number. the reality is this, the reconciliation bill is now at least weeks away from being finished. this is not going to get done this week. so what does that mean? it means speaker pelosi is now forced to embrace the reality she has to uncouple the bipartisan infrastructure bill from the larger reconciliation package if she wants to vote anytime soon. on what has been now looks like a major reversal and a break with the progressive wing of the party pelosi will move forward with a vote on thursday on the bipartisan infrastructure bill before the reconciliation bill is ready to go. she's given herself 48 hours to twist some progressive arms. progressives might have to confront their new reality, are they willing to vote against this bipartisan pill when it comes up on thursday,

progressive caucus chair jayapal suggested they would, but hoped it would not come to that. >> there are definitely the votes to pass both pieces as long as we get the full reconciliation bill voted on by the senate, but until that happens there aren't the votes for the infrastructure bill. so we're all working very hard to make sure we get that reconciliation piece done pre conference, agreed to and then we will happily vote for both bills. >> i see daylight. i saw a little daylight in that answer. pelosi told reporters this morning she's working to get progressives on board by working out those details of what the reconciliation bill will look like. obviously we get an idea that biden has to get a number out of manchin and sinema and pelosi takes that number to the progressives all before thursday. still, there is another serious reality check happening on the senate side. after republicans blocked a bill last night majority leader schumer has to deal with the

reality that mitch mcconnell and his party are not going to help them raise the debt limit and that democrats are going to need to put a clean bill forward if they want to keep the lights on past thursday night. he has one more -- he's trying this afternoon. garrett haake has all of this from capitol hill, peter alexander is outside the white house as the president meets with senator manchin. garrett, let's take things that could get resolved today first and then we will go into the larger debate about the president's agenda. the debt ceiling. so senator schumer is asking for something today that's an interesting idea, looking for unanimous consent to bring a debt ceiling bill to the floor that would allow it to be raised with 50 votes, just the democrats. if no republican objects, ie filibusters it, ted cruz has been promising he will do that, is this a realistic way out for the country on this debt limit? are republicans going to allow themselves to filibuster this idea, too? >> reporter: no, this won't

ultimately be the way out of the debt limit fight here. republicans have already made clear they will filibuster this, too. just to make it clear, this is chuck schumer saying if republicans want to go to happy hour, if they want to go to dinner early they can leave the capitol, democrats will do this entirely on their own but republicans will say no. republicans want to exact some political pain here, they want to force democrats to go through the reconciliation process to get this done. there's nothing to negotiate for, republicans don't want anything, and that's what has democratic backs up against the wall here. there is another opportunity for schumer to make it look like republicans are just wholly uninterested in governing or participating in the process, but i do not see any reason to believe that this tactical move will work here, either. i think we're ultimately still moving towards democrats having to address this through reconciliation. >> we will find that out for sure in about an hour or so, but i think you're right there, garrett. let's go to the larger issues, the bipartisan bill on thursday, do they have to get a number out

of manchin, does speaker pelosi need a number out of manchin an sinema that they can work with before thursday if she's going to get enough progressives on board? >> reporter: look, she needs something here. the progressives are fairly pragmatic here, you could tell that with that interview with leanne and congresswoman jayapal. they need something to show for this. we're hearing from the same thing from progressive members today. what that is is hard to find. this is the degree of urgency on this issue that joe manchin has, this is what he said to me when i asked him about this about an hour ago. listen to this. >> senator, the president keeps asking you for a number for a price tag, can you give him one today? >> i don't think that's what the meeting is about, i think we're just talking about the overall -- the overall bill. >> reporter: chuck, it's late september talking about the overall bill doesn't get you there. manchin who speaks a lot but says very little about what he wants in this bill and sinema who speaks very little and says very little about what she wants

in this bill have given almost no markers here. they have also given no sense of urgency, manchin talk being a pause, suggesting this whole thing could just wait. if that continues to be the way he handles himself today with the president and afterwards, i'm not sure how this gets done by thursday. i think we're just talking about a very long timeline here to get a vote on either of these priorities. >> garrett, speaker pelosi is not going to let this bill fail. it gets pulled if she doesn't have the votes on thursday, that's the more likely scenario if they don't vote -- if they don't pass t it's either it passes or it doesn't get voted on, right? >> reporter: that's right. tactically that's not the way she likes to operate, she doesn't want to embarrass her members by putting something up and having it fail. she wants to get to a solution. there just may not be one to have if manchin and sinema are flatly refuse to go put any number out there. >> peter alexander, we've been talking about what does manchin and sinema want. what does the white house want? i say that because there were some anonymous members of

congress today who say they are not on the democrat -- they don't feel like they are in the middle of the progressive/moderate fight, they simply want to have biden's back, but they want to know what does that mean. having his back means getting the bill -- the bipartisan bill pass this had week or not? having his back means holding off for the reconciliation. what does having the president's back mean if you are a rank and file democrat? >> reporter: you can understand their frustration. manchin isn't say a whole lot and sinema hasn't said a whole lot. the most the president has said after speaking to nancy pelosi and chuck schumer again yesterday effectively is that they support the strategy that they're taking right now, exactly what that strategy looks like going forward remains to be seen. one thing is notable, this engagement with sinema and manchin that the two will be here today, the third time in three weeks that those senate moderates, those centrists ultimately are a part of this conversation with the president. they really are driving the way

this goes going forward, but, chuck, to give you a better standard for our audience right now you're basically playing with these four puzzle pieces that they're trying to fit together from government funding to the debt limit to the first infrastructure plan that is bipartisan, the second one that's not going to be $3.5 trillion nancy pelosi acknowledges but how much less will it be? the desire had been for this to all get done dh week, clearly that's not going to happen, joe biden himself yesterday said that was the case, he said it will likely happen perhaps into the next week and beyond. frankly, there is certainly frustration here because the white house recognizes that they are sort of being tabbed as the ones who are being fiscally irresponsible, they're frustrated the republicans are able to deliver that message. the conversation has been about the spending the total dollar figure and not what's in this. universal pre-k and free community college, climate programs are all popular individually but when you put them under a big dollar figure it's using the republicans' messaging here. >> i always try to remind

people, yes, the ideas are popular when you poll them as ideas, the question is are they popular and people can just pick them out without you having to tell them about it. there's two ways of assessing polling information. do you expect movement today since both sinema and manchin are there? is that what this is about, a little more of a -- are we going to see more of the president weighing in here, peter? >> reporter: i think clearly there's an urgency so we will find out as best we can what happens behind closed doors, it's been described as a window of opportunity or window of intensity. joe biden you will remember is someone who says no one has better relationships to the folks in senate, knows the way it works better. for clarity, joe biden only served in the senate with 35 of the remaining senators right now, only a third of your sitting senators had a direct relationship with joe biden when he was in the senate, that's even a smaller figure when you look at those on the house side. so it's really these two in particular he's trying to build that relationship with, get their help to help nancy pelosi

make things happen on the hill. >> garrett haake and peter alexander, thank you. i'm joined by congressman mark pocan. you represent the madison area. i take it you are not interested in just saying no to this bipartisan infrastructure bill on thursday. what do you need to get to yes on thursday? >> chuck, thanks for having me on. i mean, we have said all along we have the president's back on his build back better agenda. we wanted to get those big ideas like child care, universal child care and expansion of medicare and paid family leave and all those big ideas that are part of the build back better part, not just the infrastructure part and the only way you can ensure you get both, especially given a couple senators' comments is to have both bills go up at the same time. we look at what we're doing as trying to get the totality of the president's agenda done, if

you look at just the infrastructure bill, that's about 9% of what joe biden originally wanted. if we get out of here with just 9% of what joe biden wanted, we're not going to be able to deliver to people things like child care. the one thing i might disagree, i heard you say, you know, things polled individually but what about in the real world. in the real world people have kids that need child care. in the real world people will get that tax cut for their kids via the child tax credit, in the real world they will see an expansion of dental, vision and hearing through medicare. those are real world things that voters will remember and i think that's why we want to get the whole agenda done, we have the president's back and i just hope that a couple senators will start also having his back real soon. >> you know, congressman, the hard part of this, though, is to watch the party war with each other, where failure becomes rewarding at perhaps the trumpist wing of the gop.

both sides hate -- when i say both sides meaning the progressives and moderates you don't like when trump is used as a weapon like this, but that is the fear of failure here. it's not just having, oh, it's dysfunctional, democrats, blah, blah, blah. it's failure suddenly hands the trumpist wing, which is a very dangerous wing, political wing these days of the gop, extra leverage. how concerned are you about that, that this process accidentally gives that wing some oxygen? >> and that's why we're fighting so hard to get the president's whole agenda done because we know these are things that really will matter to people, the average person in my district, but remember over 200 house democrats and 48 senate democrats are together on this, we're all working together. there are a couple people in the senate and a handful or two in the house that are still picking what kind of wood they want for their oar, but the rest of us are all together. saying there is a divide in the democratic party isn't correct. don't forget the real opposition

is big pharma and special interests that don't want to pay for this bill because this bill is completely paid for by the wealthiest and big corporation that is don't pay their taxes. they are trying to get in the ear of every member and only a few of them right now are kind of listening but i think at the end of the day they will know if they don't deliver child care to their constituents, they don't deliver the paid family leave, the free community college, that they're going to have far bigger problems. i am still confident that these are democratic values, these are things that people really will see the value and we're going to get this done, it's just it might be as some have said the storm before the calm. i think that's what you're watching. >> the part of this that i think has been hard to digest is why don't you trust some of these other members when they say, hey, let's pass the bipartisan bill, we're going to be there, but reconciliation will take longer, put some points on the scoreboard for biden, let him get his signing ceremony there and finish reconciliation in the fall. why are you so afraid -- and you

are not alone, a lot of progressives are, senator cory booker had his own reasoning why he didn't want to go down this route. explain why you don't trust that process to work for you. >> sure. well, i think it's the pop eye cartoon from growing up, i will gladly pay you tuesday for a hamburger today. this group doesn't want to do the rest of the bills unless we put a little extra pressure on. we're trying to do these ideas that are the big ideas the american people are going to benefit from and see the direct benefit in tax cut for people, 40 million americans who have kids, lower costs, creating 2 million jobs, many that will tackle climate change, but in order to get that done we have to get a few people to maybe listen a little less to some of the washington special interests and big pharma and realize that this is in the best interest of their constituents. based on the comments that we have heard is why we want to make sure both happen together. if we give up that leverage i am fearful that we will only

deliver on 9% of the president's agenda and, you know, i want -- the president has a good vision here, i want to make sure we have his back. >> i mean, is it the leverage just not -- i mean, if they pull back on the word, there are going to be a lot of progressives that primary these moderates if they walk away. isn't that the leverage that should be hanging over their head? >> what we care about is getting these things done. we have a moment right now to do this. we have several hundred democrats in the house and 48 in the senate all rowing together, we just need a couple more people in the senate and a handful or more in the house to do that. if the vast majority of democrats in r. in the right place with the american people we can get this done but you have to move both together like we have said from the beginning and we just need a couple people to be a little more honest about what they want with us rather than playing this coy game. they're glad to talk but won't say anything.

>> are you definitely a no on thursday or are you a wait and see what comes out of manchin? >> we would have to have some significant movement for many of us, dozens of us, to be able to vote yes on thursday. >> is it fair for us to hear that comment from you and say, oh, there is a little bit of light there? >> well, that would take a lot of movement from a few people who right now are enjoying the limelight rather than the product. we need people to say what they're for. what's what the president asked last week, i was at the white house for one of those meetings. he asked those folks who aren't quite there yet what do you want and they are still playing a little bit coy. it's time for coy to be over. >> congressman, this is what i wish every elected official, spend more time telling me what you are for not telling me what you are against. >> absolutely. >> i appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us, sir. >> thank you. up next, the other story unfolding on capitol hill this hour as the top pentagon officials testify for the first time on the decisions behind the

withdrawal from afghanistan. what general milley is saying about the multiple political books he has been quoted in recently. you're watching "meet the press daily." recently you're watching "meet e thpress daily. get ready. it's time for the savings event of the year. the homeandautobundle xtravafestasaveathon! at this homeandautobundle xtravafestasaveathon, there's no telling what we might bundle! homeandautobundle xtravafestasaveathon! bundle cars, trucks, colonials, bungalows, and that weird hut your uncle lives in. so strike up the homeandautobundle xtravafestasaveathon band for the deal that started forever ago and will probably never end. homeandautobundle xtravafestasaveathon. -say it with me. -homeandautobundle-- no one's leaving till you say it right. homeandauto...

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for fifteen hundred dollars off your kohler walk-in bath. visit kohlerwalkinbath.com for more info. as we said at the top u.s. defense officials who have been appearing before the senate arms services committee today, it's the first day defense secretary lloyd austin and mark milley testified on capitol hill about the chaotic and deadly withdrawal from afghanistan. general milley stated publicly for the first time that he had advised president biden to leave u.s. troops in afghanistan even after the withdrawal was completed, although he also acknowledged it's up to the commander in chief to make that final decision. secretary austin called the operation to evacuate nearly 130,000 people from afghanistan a success and defended the decision to leave bagram airfield just outside of kabul in july. >> retaining bagram would have required putting as many as 5,000 u.s. troops in harm's way just to operate and defend it. and it would have contributed --

contributed little to the mission that we've been assigned. and that was to protect and defend the embassy, which was some 30 miles away. that distance from kabul also rendered bagram of little value in the evacuation. staying at bagram even for counterterrorism purposes meant staying at war in afghanistan. >> but perhaps most noteworthy about today's hearing was what committee members did not ask, at least not yet. so far there has been very little asked about the drone strike that killed civilians. apparently it was not a righteous strike and general milley did not face tough questions about phone calls he acknowledges making to the chinese counter, part assuring him that the u.s. would not attack china. general milley defended the calls in his opening remarks insisting that he was not trying to undermine then president donald trump. >> the specific purpose of the october and january calls were to generate -- were generated by

concerning intelligence which caused us to believe the chinese were worried about an attack on them by the united states. i know, i am certain, that president trump did not intend to attack the chinese and it is my directed responsibility and it was my directed responsibility by the secretary to convey that intent to the chinese. >> we're going to unpack everything that you just heard and then some during the hearing next but we will sneak in a break. hearing next but we will sneak in a break. i-style oven-roasted turkey. and new hickory-smoked bacon. it's the eat fresh refresh™ at subway®. there's so much new we don't even have time for this guy! but i'm tom brady! oh, and there's smashed avocado too! i'm not getting through the pandemic just to end up with the flu. i asked for fluzone high-dose quadrivalent. it's the #1-used flu vaccine for people 65 and older. fluzone high-dose quadrivalent is the only vaccine approved by the fda for superior flu protection in adults 65+.

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would you use the term extraordinary success for what took place in august in afghanistan? >> that's the noncombatant evacuation and i think one of the other senators said it very well it was a logistical success but a strategic failure. >> welcome back. that was one of the more tense moments from secretary austin and general milley's appearances so far today before the senate arms services committee. the hearing will continue on this afternoon, will pick up in five minutes or so and they will be back before a house committee tomorrow. for more i'm joined by sahil kapur on capitol hill, courtney kube and david ignatius, the foreign policy columnist and editor of the "washington post" and msnbc contributor. sahil, i want to start with what kind of questions we're seeing from the senators here and what we're -- what they're focused on and what they haven't been focused on. for instance, we've noticed very

little about the failed strike on the retaliation strike on isis-k. what else have you picked up when it comes to congressional focus and congressional questioning? >> reporter: chuck, there was a disparity in terms of the questions asked by the republicans on the committee and the democrats. this is somewhat to be expected, but republicans focused heavily on the tactical misjudgments and errors of the last few months, democrats focused a little bit more on the way forward and to the extent that they looked back a number of them wanted to look back over the failures of the last 20 years, not just the last few months. just off the top senator inhofe the ranking republican on the panel called this an avoidable disaster. general josh hawley pressed the military leaders on americans left behind in afghanistan and, of course, the democrats including elizabeth warren kind of set the tone, talked about how the seeds of failure in afghanistan were planted over the last 20 years.

there were also criticism from democrats, senator richard blumenthal questioned pretty aggressively about the americans stranded in afghanistan, wanted a number, suggested that there isn't a number because he doesn't really know who is in charge, it's not really clear to him who is in charge at this point. the other thing that stood out to me was the talk about the doha agreement, the february 2020 pac struck between the united states and taliban. general milley and mckenzie flat out said that it deteriorated the morale of the afghan forces, essentially saying that that deal struck by former president trump contributed to the rapid fall of afghanistan as quickly as it did under president biden. >> courtney kube, the -- both -- certainly general milley and mckenzie have made it clear where they stood on the decision on withdrawal and what kind of troop presence they would have left, secretary austin has been a little more opaque. what have you been surprised at

hearing and not surprised to hear? >> we had a story out yesterday saying that secretary austin recommended not only keeping the number of troops earlier this year but actually even growing the number up to 3,500, even 4,000 as a point of leverage in the discussions with the taliban in doha. so it's not surprising, it's been reported that the military leadership all recommended to president biden to maintain a troop presence but what's remarkable is to have these men in uniform sit there and say under oath that, in fact, this was -- they did believe that they needed to keep troops there. we don't generally hear military leaders, especially at the four-star level, disputing a sitting president. now, they were -- and they were very careful about the way that they did it, chuck. they didn't say we told president biden this and he didn't listen. instead they said i will give you my opinion, my opinion was that we should have kept troops there, we should maintain a presence. so a new and different way than i've actually ever heard them answer the question of what was your advice to the president on issues. so that was pretty remarkable. i was also really struck today

by how general milley talked about the strategic failure of the noncombatant evacuation and also saying that the war was strategically lost. again, not something that we would generally hear out of someone in uniform, especially the chairman of the joint chiefs, the sitting current chairman of the joint chiefs saying something like that. people have been debating ever since the president announced that the u.s. was going to leave and then the withdrawal the way that it was carried out, people have been talking about whether the war this afghanistan was lost. to hear the chairman of the joint chiefs say that in uniform today was really striking to me, chuck. >> let me bring in david ignatius. david, i'm just curious to point out what courtney said, this -- while it is not a surprise, it is still not every day that you hear this kind of public disagreement being aired out. it's also very healthy in a healthy democracy, that's what you hope to have, but if past is

prologue, public disagreements usually lead to more tense relationships between a west wing and a pentagon. how do you expect this relationship to go forward, david? >> well, i didn't think there was all that much distance between secretary of defense lloyd austin and general milley and general mckenzie. like courtney, i was struck by the sometimes painful honesty from general milley who really lived this war, commanded it, fought it, about the end result, that it was a strategic failure. he was honest about the stakes, the lessons learned that we tried to mirror image, he said, create a force that was so similar to our own and we forgot about cultural differences. he was very specific about saying it was a mistake to have time limits on our troop presence that should have been conditions based, that that was a mistake. he was honest about the lack of adequate intelligence once we didn't have advisers with the afghan forces.

we didn't really know about their leadership, their morale, their ability to fight. i found that in a sense encouraging. all of the pain that the country feels about afghanistan i thought was visible on both sides from the senators and from the generals and secretary austin. in that sense i think this was a reckoning the country needed to have, i just would note one other thing, that people will find disturbing as they think it over, the generals were very clear that the threat from al qaeda is still present, that the taliban has never disavowed al qaeda, that al qaeda is able to reconstitute, i think general milley said within 18 months or more, so the concern about a future threat to the homeland after this terrible war is over i think is something that we're going to be debating a lot more in the months to come. >> david, this may be too much for a five-minute segment to tackle here, but considering

what we're hearing from our leading military -- the leading uniform military officer in america about afghanistan being a strategic failure, basically now putting it as a loss along with vietnam, how does this not sort of change our military posture in the pentagon? it is pretty clear we have to be a special forces driven military -- a special forces driven military these days, that's the over the horizon counterterrorism issues, that that has been our successful military strikes. anytime we're moving troops it has been unsuccessful now two generations in a row. but yet our posture of how we organize our military generally hasn't changed. do you expect that to actually change now? >> i think it's in the process of changing. i think there is a general

understanding that we will not fight again the kinds of wars we fought in iraq and afghanistan. every military leader, civilian official says that. special forces will be part of it. there are a whole new generation of weapons that's coming on scene directed energy weapons, drones, that's what military strategists are really spending their time thinking about. one more thing, chuck, that is a big take away for me today, today was a day that did reaffirm the idea of civilian control of the military. that was a big issue with general milley. had he gone out of his lanes, had he been interfering improperly in his calls to the chinese chief of staff, i heard a strong endorsement from him and also from the senators themselves, there they were, you know, conducting the kind of oversight that we really need more of with the military. so a good day for civilian control i thought. >> i was just going to say had general milley -- he was asked

why he didn't resign. had he resigned over that disagreement, then that would have actually struck a blow for civilian control, would it not? >> well, i mean, his answer i thought was interesting to that. he said to resign would have been a political act and i am a military man. >> yeah. >> and then he said very movingly my dad didn't get to resign at iwo jima. that kids at abbey gate didn't get to resign, they didn't have that choice and i don't, either. i thought that was a good straight up answer from the general. >> so where do we go from here in counterterrorism? because when you look at what happened in our initial strike, it didn't -- it turned out we didn't get that right. why shouldn't that lead us to question whether an over the horizon strategy is worthy and do you really think we're going to be using russian bases to launch counterterrorism strikes into afghanistan? >> so, you know, over the

horizon just is no longer is credible an argument that it was. the military has been assuring us, intelligence community, that we can handle this and what we've seen really calls that into question. you do need people on the ground. there is an effort under way to try to get much closer than the uae or other places in the gulf, that's what the conversations with the russians are about. who knows where they are about. qatar and turkey are key intermediaries for us in trying to figure this out. i do think this easy assurance about over the horizon capabilities is really shredded by what we've seen. >> david ignatius, sahil kapur, courtney kube, thank you all for being on top of this story for us. i have another piece of capitol hill news to share with you today, the congressman benny thompson the chair of the january 6 committee said that the committee intends to issue more subpoenas this week. this comes after the committee issued their first subpoenas

last week to four close trump confidants including his former chief of staff mark meadows. when asked who might be on the receiving end of the new subpoenas he said they will be similar to the first batch of trump associates but a bit more broad. congresswoman liz cheney told our capitol hill team today that a number of individuals are voluntarily coming forward to talk to the committee but she would not say no ohio those folks were. coming up i will speak to congressman mike braun of indiana as his party has decided to sit on the sidelines in the debt ceiling issue threatening an economic catastrophe. issue g an economic catastrophe.

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wcome back, as we expected last night w got another clear exampl of how dysfuncon nl congress is right now as mitch mcconnellromised this he would senate republicans blocked a bill to temporarily fun the government and rse t debt ceilg. at leaves the goverent heading towards a shutdown on thursday and catasophic fiscal crisis in weeks.

before tesmony this morning in fron of the senate banking committee net ylen announced th october 18th is the deadline for congress t raise the debt limit. people have been wondering when in tober. she said is t 18th. if it doesn'tappen by then the u.s. could default on its financial obligations which would crash the stock market and plunge the country into a catastrophic near term recession. joining me now republican senator of indiana mike braun who like all of his republican colleaguesoted against last night's short term fding bill. senator braun, welcome. i undetand you don't want to vote for the debt ceing and i know where you are on debt issues, but explain toe why filibustering it is good for the country. >> i think it's because, chuck, where we've arrived in the short time i've been here, i got here a little under three years ago and we were $18 trillion in debt and i think it's one thing when you have been here for a while, i generally vote on principle and if it's even something i

like policy-wise, if it doesn't have a true pay for like an offset, a new stream of funding, i'm going to vote against it. many here have not done that and how we got here, it's been an equal opportunity endeavor because republicans and democrats up until recently have said whatever is happening here, trillion dollar deficits we run annually, you shrug it off. i think the difference here is -- and that's why you're going to see some things get dramatized -- is we've never had nearly $6 trillion of new above and beyond spending teed up and no votes on the other side to do it. so i'm the first to admit that this has been a long journey to get to where we are and i want to see the place reformed where you vote on principle not policies that you will roll over for if you like it. an i think thas the difference this time. >> all right. but the debt ceiling is a silly -- it's an arbitrary figure, it's silly,t makes no

sense other tn giving congress a tl to play a political tactical political game. isn't this what's wrong with american politics? i mean, why play with the economy, why play russian roulette with the economy just pause you can, just to make a political point. there are better ways to do it than this, are there not? >> i an, for the part of the debt that's been accumulated prior tohe rescue bil and the $3.5 trillion plus the other, you kn, around $4 trillion that we are going to spend, that's different, and i think that, yes, if you are doing it just to make a point and you've been part of the problem in the past, that's going to fallhort for many people out there scratching their hd abo it, but here to me i think there is a distinction, there wasn't one republican vote for the rescue bill or this now going throu and even though it seems like an epiphany, which i think you can takes to task on, not a guy like me, i came her to fight the dysfunction to where w

won't use regular order, we n't take it through commites, we don't do wt any other entity local, state government running a business would do, you can't run the biggest business ithe world thfederal government by the seat o its pants like we've been doing it for decades. >> so the president -- president trump's tax bill was a big mistake in your mind, then. wasn't paid for, added to the deficit and so the debt -- so, you know, you would not support raising the debt ceiling to help pay for that, either? >> so the cbo had costed that out at $1.5 trillion over ten years, $150 billion a year, an chuck, pre covid i was communicating with the cbo. are we revenue neutral? did we hit the sweet spot where we were raising wages? and, yes, we did cut taxes, but it was so close to payin for itself. this is so different from that and, yes, if we're can you get

taxes and still spending like drunken sailors, shame on us. that's what botharties have done over decades. i came here to be honest about it and to try to put some reforms in place like no budget, no pay. if you don't have a hearing, yore not going to get a vote. i'd love to see a balanced budget amendment. of course, nobody wants to do that. they campaign on it and have amnesi once they get here. >> yeah. >> we need reforms for the sake of this place being there for all that people that depend on t especially retirees for health and retirement andt's not going to be there and that's beuse we've run it so poorly over the years both sides to blame. >> again, why play with the american economy and use the -- this arbitrary phoney issue, statutory power that congress has that is literally just a magical line in the sand that congress creates, why use this as a way to punish the american

economy? you've said it yourself, it's -- there's nowhere -- it's not a republican debt or a democratic debt, it's an american debt and it's been accumulated by all americans. why should the republicans stay on the sidelines here? why should you be responsible for governing if you're going to be irresponsible when in the minority? >> a couple things. whenever we've raised the debt ceiling in the past it's mostly been under divided government. this is one of the first times when you have all the tools to raise it yourself and, again, the difference is i cut it off at the end of last fiscal year. we don't even have appropriations going on and that's guilty under republicans as well until the beginning of the next fiscal year, but this total of 6 to 7 trillion is above and beyond the normal baseline spending we do that has trillion dollar deficits annually. this is making a new statement that will raise the ceiling to accommodate something that's

above and beyond what we've ever done before and to me that's the difference. >> does being in the middle of a pandemic and one of the great potential economic crises that we have averted by doing something we didn't do in previous down turns, which was we threw some money at the problem and prevented a catastrophic recession, why isn't this a special circumstance and have this debate when the sun is shining? the sun is not shining right now, it's still raining covid. >> so the economy has still got to fight through covid and thank goodness we have vaccines, i think there's current talk about therapeutics coming into play, pfizer is introducing one that can treat it once you get it. i've been clear from the beginning if you don't have a good reason, get the vaccine, but it's going to probably take more than just vaccines to bring it at bay when some countries are under 10% vaccination. it does raise the point the economy is still somewhat fragile, on the other hand we've

dumped so much government -- into it you have if he had chairman powell looking at restraining it by raising interest rates. the economy was to healthy pre-covid we ought to look to see what was driving it in the direction i thought was healthy for main street. i believe a lot of things need to be changed in the long run in terms of how we run this place and who pays for things. we just can't do what we're doing now and expect it not to have consequences with debt and inflation down the road. >> it's a game of chicken, though, setor. it looks absurd to the average person. it's why people hate politics when you play a legislative tactical game like this. everybody knows it has to be raised, inclung senator mcconnell, nobody wan to face that catastrophicssue of not raisin it. you just simply want to stay on the sidelinesnd let the other guys do it. it just looks -- it looks dysfunctionaon purpose. >> they spent every penny of above and beyond spending with the $2 trillion we did, the $4

trillion they're going to ram through -- >> so crash the economy? >> -- and that is not needed in the economy at this stage. we're going to have to navigate through the covid part of it over a period of time and the thing that worries me would be something like the vaccine mandate which that is going to be the most crippling feature that's descended from here down to main street that we all have to contend with. i just met with the prison bureau where they have 750 employees in indiana and they've got 50% vaccinated and they think half of the remaining employees, half of them, nearly 175 employees are going to leave and that doesn't have anything to do with the private mandate on businesses, 100 and larger, and that changes the rules from the c.a.r.e.s. help we did when there were 500 employees and less, that's been lowered to 100. i think we have a lot of things going in the right direction, a lot of these recent policies

makes me wonder does it have things to do with the southern border, afghanistan and other things that are piling up and you're making one bad decision after another. >> well, it's hard -- i don't see the logic in making it -- going out of of your way to makt heard for the economy to come back on this issue, but i understand it's a partisan decision that both parties, i guess at times, can claim they make, but this one feels intentionally disruptive. republican senator mike braun, i appreciate you coming on. you're fearless on explaining your point of view a i appreciate it. >> you're welcome. kids with vaccines as youth are overwhelming hospitals. you're watching "meet the press daily." hospitals you're watching "meet the press daily. to show you who's holding this phone. bet you don't treat brady this way. come on, man! you clearly haven't seen the other ads. as someone who resembles someone else... i appreciate that lirty mutualeat fresh refresh™ .

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viruses are surging across that state. we have maura barrett. tell us what's happening in that ate. >> reporter: it's hitting a lot younger a healthier people than we're used to seeing. of that younger population, about 6800 patients uer the age of 18 have been hospitaled. if you look at the increase at this time from the summer, it's increased 16-fold since just july. when you look at the comparison of their last surge in 2020, there has been a 200% increase of patients in their 30s and 40s. doctors are really concerned about that, and they're facing pushback because pple are seeing misinformation on social mea, and there is also a huge resistance he in ohio to

mandates. this all comess state republicans are introducing bills that would ban vaccines, masks and even testingandates in cerin businesses and in schools, and so right now doctors, while their national conversation is about boosters, doctorsay as the variants progress, we'll be going to all the greek letters of the alphabet after delta, it's important to get the first and second doses as a protectiv layer to start. >>mauraarrett i oo for u coveng this partf the pandemic. ura, tnk yo andhank y for watcng, n just thi hour, but for the past 26 year making the longest-running show on msnbc. there's the podcast, and our

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a kohler walk-in bath provides independence with peace of mind. call... for fifteen hundred dollars off your kohler walk-in bath. visit kohlerwalkinbath.com for more info. it is good to be with you. i'm jeff bennett. and there is no shortage of drama on capitol hill this afternoon. democrats are struggling to save the president's domestic agenda from defeat, avoid a global shutdown during a pandemic and a catastrophic default on our nation's debt. let's start with the infrastructure. the clock ticking down for a vote on thursday. how nancy pelosi just shifted strategies, announcing passage of the infrastructure bill couldn't wait for the bigger, sweeping, social overhaul. today she's expressing confidence that she'll get her party on board with just 48