they are make progress gresz. based on everything we're hearing, it looks like the caucus is days or weeks away from a deal they can pass through congress. although the democratic caucus chair just told reporters he's confidence they will vote on the bipartisan infrastructure bill today, he's hopeful they'll get some clarify from the senate shortly. all of this comes as right now progressive democrats are still holding the line, insisting a far from reconciliation bill must be passed before there's a vote on the president's bipartisan infrastructure bill. a framework on paper is probably not going to be enough. the progressive caucus chair spoke to reporters twice today. and she made it clear that progressives still don't fully trust the democratic agenda in the hands of the senate moderates. sinema has left washington according to two sources familiar with the matter. >> i have consistently said that we need a vote in the senate, because i want to make sure that

there are no delays, that there are no mixups and no mixed understandings about what the deal is. and so that's what i've been saying. i am open to hearing what other options there are for that. but i am very concerned about legislative language, holding things up, voter drama affecting the deal. it's both content and process. the resolution is not here in this caucus. it's with two senators and the rest of 98% of the democratic caucus. and so that's i think -- i think that's where the discussion is. and you know, and we'll see what we get. >> it's clear progressive democrats are not going to take the $1.5 trillion offer. it's clear that progressives know they'll have to come down from the $1.5 trillion offer as well. the president's bipartisan

infrastructure deal remains in house limbo. the reconciliation bill is in senate limbo. all signs point to an eventual agreement somewhere between the two big numbers. democrats in both chambers agree on one thing. it would be mutually assured destruction if neither infrastructure or reconciliation passes. there's a wild card. sinema of arizona. manchin went public. she hasn't. after all the negotiates democrats may find themselves at a cross roads. manchening and progressives are closer than you think. it's whether sinema can support what agree to. there's a long way to go and a short time to get there. garrett haake is on capitol hill. kelly o'donnell at the white house. the announcement of another democratic caucus meeting, garrett, does that mean they expect to present the caucus with something?

is that the anticipation? and then there's a little -- a bunch of shuttle diplomacy between manchin and the speaker? >> look, chuck, bottom line here is the ball is not in the house's court. you played some of the comments on this. i've heard similar things from progressives. they want a vote, but they're also wanting to get to yes. i think they've been saying in so many words for days now, bring us something that could be a foundation of a deal. they haven't gotten meeting tod heard airing of grievances. democrats were reminding each other they want to pass both of these things here. now, whether this 2:00 meeting is with an offer or this 2:00 meeting is a way to keep everybody close and everybody in town with the possibility that there might be more movement today, i can't say just yet. every indication is still that both of these bills will someday become law. but the question is on what day? because this artificial timeline that speaker pelosi got

democrats locked into in agreement with the moderates is the challenge. somebody needs to find a way to back out of the timeline. i don't see an agreement as close as i think -- as i think some others might. >> garrett, quickly, and this is a little bit of an inside congress joke. what day of the week is it as far as congress is concerned? >> in congress time, it's still thursday. september 30th. the legislative day remains. technically, speaker pelosi has broken no promise to vote on thursday, because it's still thursday in congress. time is a flat circle here, chuck. >> and also kyrsten sinema, not in town. what are we supposed to make of that? >> look, i mean, it's 2021. people work remotely. you can negotiate from anywhere. but kyrsten sinema has a perception problem among her fellow democrats that so many people think she's not taking this seriously. she's not engaged. she might be out of town with

the phone glued to her head talking to the president of the united states. the idea she's not physically here suggests a lack of urgency that frustrates progressives that want to see a purple state senator from a state joe biden won more firmly in their corner? >> all right. let's go to the other side of pennsylvania avenue. kelly o'donnell. we've been asking all week, when is the white house going to get more engaged? clearly in the last 24 hours they've shown a lot more -- put a lot more skin in the game here. where do they think things are at, and do they view themselves as the mediator or is it nancy pelosi who sort of is the one running the negotiations at the white house and the white house is there to nod yes or no? >> well, talking with sources here, and trying to get a sense of the rhythms of the place, it may be friday, but it feels very much like other days we've seen through the week here. with the president having a very open schedule, able to be nimble to fill what needs arise.

and they say they are trusting speaker pelosi for what the rhythms of this and what she thinks needs to be done. in part, they are in many ways, looking to her for a judgment on where her members are, and at the same time, using the president's time, where they can, notably behind the scenes. we've not seen the president publicly much at all this week. and being able to have him work the phones, have him deal with his top team of a half dozen or so who are working directly with lawmakers, spending time going back and forth. one of the questions is whether the president choose to visit the capitol? would that be a sign of trying to close a deal or trying to have that in person energy with members who have been craving more time with the president? that is something that could happen, but there are no immediate plans that we've been told to expect that. so part of this trust deficit, as you outlined, i asked jen salk can i about this earlier in the week.

they said the president is not trying to assess trust between moderates and progressives. he's trying to get both pieces of legislation across the finish line and trusting members i also asked are they doing their own count to help direct the president's time for who he's talking to and what he's trying to get done. not a clear answer there. and my sense of that is the reluctance to give specifics as to not rock the boat. if there's something that comes out from the white house that might be something we would emphasize, could that affect how they're handling the conversations and everything so sensitive here? and as you heard in some of the comments of lawmakers, the tensions that always exist between house members and senators and the perceived imbalances -- >> kelly? >> that's playing out too. >> you were just asking whether the president -- i just got word in my ear the president is going to capitol hill. >> okay. yes, i have it on my phone, too. i've been checking. in this moment, i've read the future.

let's note that. >> there you go. >> the power of that. why is that so important? in a week what we haven't seen with the president. going there,ing with able to hear from lawmakers directly and doing a closing pitch. some have said that could be a sign of end stages of negotiation. i don't know if we're -- we'll learn more today if that's where we are or if this is a friday move to keep momentum going. the white house has been saying what looks like discord and messiness in the public space is actually about progress in the private space. so we're having to take their word on that at this point. and measure it against what we hear on the hill. the president heading down the street, that's a bulletin for the day. >> well, i got a pretty good guess right now. i'm curious of her reaction. so i'm going to let you guys go. kelly o'donnell, garrett haake, good to have breaking news while you're both on. i'm joined by someone at the center. let me start. the president coming to capitol

hill. should we read that as a sign things are closer than they have been? >> well, i think we have been saying for some time these negotiations really are going on. they're going on behind the scenes. i am in very close touch with the white house. they are in close touch with the senators, the speaker is in touch with the senators as well. and so i think that this is about reminding everybody, and i don't know, obviously i haven't talked to the white house since this -- >> you haven't even been give an heads up they were coming? >> no. >> okay. >> but i also believe the president really appreciates that we're fighting for his entire agenda. that i do know. they have told us that. and i think for us, it is just really clear that we can get there. we feel positive that we can get everybody to a yes on both these bills. but there is a little bit more negotiation that has to happen. >> what's being negotiated at this point? is it the top line number more so? is it the process? what has been more of the struggle in the negotiation? >> it is both. it's the content, obviously, but

it's also the process. because we have said that we would like to have a vote in the senate. now, i will just say that if there's some other assurance that is really, really ironclad that assures us that this is not going to get screwed up in the legislative process, whether it's legislative language or the voterama that gets in the way. the process the senate has. >> if they can guarantee you something short of the vote but better than a handshake, then maybe? >> i'm open to listening. that's -- i mean, that's my posture always. i think wherever you're in a negotiation, you have to be open to listening. and so i am. but i will say that our members have a lot of fear about somehow this thing getting misunderstood, confused, somebody says well, that wasn't really the thing we agreed on. so there's going to have to be something pretty strong, and we're still saying it's a vote. >> look, and i know that some of these numbers are being floated around. i've heard something around 2.2. some people are throwing numbers

out there. i'm curious. during what is your preference if the size of this does some down? is it keep everything in and it becomes sort of smaller versions of these programs? or do you do three or four programs really well and try to come back again maybe in six months to go after some of these other programs? >> it dpepds on the offer. i mean everything depends on what the offer is. we have a preference to keep all these major programs in. and -- >> start a pilot? >> perhaps you know, bring down the number of years. but none of that makes sense to talk about until we know what the offer is. i mean, i'm never going to negotiate against myself. so i think that the important thing for us is that these programs are universal. that they deliver benefit quickly. we want people to go to community college quickly and get paid leave quickly. we want them to say wow, the federal government just delivered me child care for every family across this country that can't afford child care.

we want them to see that benefit quickly. those are two very important things for us. universally and speed of delivery. >> joe manchin now in public with what -- did you not know what manchin's bottom lines were that apparently the senate folks did. did you learn of this yesterday? >> i hadn't seen that document at all. didn't have any idea. >> why is that? >> you know, i don't know. i did talk to senator schumer, and i really don't -- i don't have anything more to say on that. >> do you think that has slowed down the process? do you think we could be at a different place, we wouldn't with at this cliff moment like this? or do you think you had -- >> it's hard enough to do my own job in the house. i can't judge what senator schumer has to do in the senate, but i can just tell you that we believe that speed is of the essence. that we have to get this done quickly. that we need to get both the bipartisan bill and the

reconciliation bill, the build back better act through. and for me, you know, the bipartisan bill is good. i'm going to vote for it. i got every member of our caucus to vote for it even though some of them don't like it. >> but you're not going to vote for it yet? >> i'm not going to vote for it yet. the reason is everyone wants the roads and bridges. they're in our bridges. we know they're important. people aren't going to remember a road the way they will remember if they wake up in the morning and they now have child care so they can go back to work. they're not going to remember a road if they don't actually have cars that they can afford. if they don't have paid leave that they can take care of their families with. that is -- and the provisions around climate change are essential in this reconciliation bill. there really aren't any provisions in the infrastructure bill. so we got to be able to do that. >> i'm curious. now that you have an -- do you feel like, you and manchin may

be for a apart on the number, but philosophically you're in the same area on taxes and how to pay for it? >> i think he's good on that in terms of paying for it. i think it's what we are paying for and what's necessary. >> are you totally against means testing for some of the programs? >> i am not for means testing. we saw the rental assistance. when you put together a 25-page form that has to help people figure out -- >> the eviction moratorium was good money nobody could find. >> it didn't work. that's what's happening. >> that's why you think it slows down? >> it the. >> is that a nonstarter? >> we're at a negotiating table. we've got to talk about everything. people are going to put things on. i'm going to put things on, and i think the more we don't lock ourselves in, the better. >> watching this process over the years, i could see where you guys are going with between manchin and where he's not. i don't know where senator

sinema is. do you? >> i talked to her last weekend. i think she's engaged and cares about a lot of these things. i know she cares about climate, and i know she cares about some of the other things. i'm going to assume the best of both of them, and say that we need both of them just like we need every single member of the house. we have a three-vote majority. everyone puts the cameras in front of two senators. i understand why. >> they have a zero majority. >> they do, and i understand that. i keep saying everyone is joe manchin in the house of representatives. i think people have seen that we -- >> right. just like it. i mean, he's got certainly his point of view. >> but i do want to -- >> my point is that there's been some speculation, and that's why i'm filling in the blanks that manchin and the progressives are closer on where to pay for this, but senator sinema is not as supportive. >> this is the democratic agenda. it's the agenda we ran on. i think we're all pretty close

on wanting to get this done. we understand the stakes. we ran. we won. the house, the senate, the white house. it's the president's agenda that we're talking about. it's not some liberal left wing wish list. it is the president's agenda that he rolled down pennsylvania avenue from the white house five months ago and delivered to us in a speech in congress. >> is it -- there's been some interesting sort of hindsight chatter. in january of this year, right after you got a 50 /50 senate, and you knew you could get 1 .9 in covid relief. get a bipartisan infrastructure deal, and 1 .5 in some discretionary spending. that would have seen, like, a pretty impressive thing. >> yeah. >> did the political eyes get bigger than is stomach? >> i don't think. i think we have to think about the moment we're in. almost 700,000 people dead. people without health care. people who have lost their jobs. people who -- women who have been kicked out of the work

force during this pandemic at a stunning, stunning rate. and who can't go back to work because their kids are still at home. so i mean, i just think there's a lot that we need to do here, and the urgency has never been greater. and the climate. i mean, listen, the president is going to go to cop 26 in a little bit. he's going to want to make an argument that the world needs to pay attention to climate change. and because that's the science. and he's not going to be able to do that if the united states can't live up to our commitment to cut carbon emissions. there is nothing around that in the infrastructure bill. it's all in the build back better. >> this bill is at least agreed to before he goes there if america wants to be a leader? >> i think so. >> days or hours away? what would you say? >> you know, it's every hour is important. and it could go into days. how's that? >> fair enough. but do you expect a vote today? >> if i had to guess, i would say no. but you know --

>> but you're not ruling out the weekend? >> definitely not, and i'm here. i'm here, baby. i'm staying the whole weekend and doing whatever it takes. >> chair of the congressional progressive caucus, thank you for coming down. >> thank you. up next, what are the consequences of democrats of this ugly divisive process. later, bipartisan condemnation of facebook amid allegations the company knew instagram is toxic for teenage girls. why one senator is welcoming the millions of views of his own embarrassing viral moment. >> will you commit to ending fence stop fence stop who pays more for prescription drugs than anyone else in the world? americans do. and whose tax dollars does big pharma use to develop those same drugs? that's right. our tax dollars. it's a big pharma scam. they get rich and we get ripped off.

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it sounded like from the congresswoman. both progressives and moderates seem to be holding somewhat firm. the question is what does that number that is compromising and not caving. there's also disagreements between progressives and other progressives. some lawmakers signalled they aren't willing to sacrifice a bill to get closer to what they want. others will only vote for the bipartisan bill once the reconciliation bill is done. >> is the framework enough, an agreed upon framework? >> no. we need a vote. we need to be real. are we going to deliver universal pre-k to this country or not? are we going to expand health care to our seniors and include vision and dental or not? are we going to invest in housing so that people back home in nicha can get hot water in the winter time or not? that's with we need to know. >> i'm join bid a democratic congressman from memphis,

tennessee. congressman, you in many ways represented the progressive block for quite a bit of time in the house. you now have a lot more company today. arguably than you did a decade ago. but you caught my eye on something earlier this week. it dove tailed with something said yesterday by clare mccaskill. a lot of the younger progressives have never been in the minority in congress, and you seem to be saying a version of the same thing going hey, you got to realize what the senate looks like over there. am i interpreting your comments right? >> well, i think you are. i'm kind of the -- you got to work with the majority and get things done. i know kelly and -- >> wow. okay. very good. >> we need to win. and i've been here 15 years. i've been on transportation 15 years. there has not been an infrastructure bill go to a

vote. we need to pass it. there's been a lot of work done on it. t not the bill i'd like, but it's a bill. it helps our country. it helps my city of memphis which is an important transportation and distribution center. and some of the propro greszives, i admire them. their values are right. we're all for the build back better and helping the kids and the senior folks staying in their hopes expanded health care and you name it. but the president sets the agenda. he's the big guy. and the senate is really larger than us. and they're not going to listen to us. kyrsten sinema didn't listen to us when she was a house member. the realities are we need to work with speaker pelosi, get a bill passed and keep a majority in 2022 and make sure the monster of donald trump doesn't rear it head in 2024 as the president of the united states. >> you're not the first person to use the fear of trumpism as an argument to get everybody in the room here. do you think progressives get that? i mean, i say this because you

look -- you're from a safe seat. a lot of the progressives from seats. they're not going to have any problems getting reelected. the folks that are going to have problems are the ones -- it's virginia 7, sydney axny, things like that. do you believe you should decouple these bills? >> i don't think there's a need to, but i think it doesn't hurt. if we -- we shouldn't kill the infrastructure bill because of the build back better bill. but i think we'll have a build back better bill, whether it's 1 .5, 2 .1, or 1.9. it could be less years. i don't think there's any magic in 12 weeks for parental weeks. what if you get ten or nine weeks? there's ways to fine tune and we can do that. we can fillet it and still have a bill and still do a lot for the american people, and politics is not revolutionary. it's evolutionary. and this is an opportunity to move us forward. >> what is your theory as the negotiations go on between -- on the size of the overall dollar

figure here? would you be shavings all the individual programs or sort of pick and choose ones to do right? you know, if you're going to do two, there may -- maybe the housing piece of this just doesn't get started? >> well, there are ways you can look at it. if we get pre-k, it's wonderful, but there's not enough teachers. and the same thing with community college. in tennessee we pay for community college through the hope scholarship money. money i produced in 2004. we have that. a lot of states don't. maybe that could be changed and done in a different way. or it could be they could be fine tuned. the bottom line is we're going to get a bill passed. the senate is going to come along, president is going to make sure it happens, and i guess i'm going to go back to tenison. we're going to go down and vote yes. >> a lot of the younger

progressives, some activists and elected officials have gotten really angry at senator manchin and sinema. in some ways you could argue this happens sometimes. you get angry at a member of your family, then you will at a neighbor in your neighborhood. do you think this is going to do long-term damage to the party? >> i don't think so. i mean, i'm disturbed with them as well. but i like joe manchin personally. the senate is the senate. if we didn't have joe manchin, we'd have mitch mcconnell as the majority leader. that would be worse than joe manchin determining our 50th vote. these are the realities. you've got to deal the reality in politics. sometimes it's not pretty. it's not pretty here. it's not pretty a lot of the times, but you've just got to deal with it and work for your constituents and get the best deal you can to send things home that create jobs and better lives for the middle class an the people that economically need help. >> speaking of lit cal reality, there's the debt ceiling.

you know, no matter how much you pound sand, if the republicans refuse to help, you got to do it -- go it alone. how would you prefer to go it alone? is it -- should you take this off the table in perpetuity? it's sort of like fine, you don't want to help us? we're not going to let you have this weapon for a decade. >> that's been the argument for a while, and maybe white house's on the senate side. i agree. it's always posturing and always the brinksmanship. we eventually get together and eventually get together in a bipartisan fashion. each year gets different. this year may be different because of trump. once again, they don't mind risking falling off the precipice or the end of the flat earth that some of them believe still exists. >> i think we're all a little nervous that yolo aspect to some people who have gotten elected to congress recently. a democrat from memphis,

tennessee, as you point out, there's a specific bring there, and it connects memphis and arkansas. and we know it needs a lot of help. i understand why you want this infrastructure bill. >> thank you, chuck. coming up, some potentially ground breaking news in the treatment of covid-19. a first of its kind anti-viral pill. is this tamiflu for covid? s that if a pair of goggles can help your backhand get better then your bank should help you budget even better. virtual wallet® with low cash mode℠ from pnc bank. one way we're making a difference. tonight, i'll be eating a club sandwich with fries and a side of mayonnaise. (doorbell rings) wonderful. mayonnaise... on fries? a little judgy, don't you think? ♪ that's weird ♪

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welcome back. we had some breaking covid news from the supreme court today. brett kavanaugh tested positive three days before the court begins the next term. in a statement the court said justice kavanaugh has been fully vaccinated for months and was tested ahead of a ceremony. none of the other justices have tested positive. justice kavanaugh is not experiencing any symptoms but he and his family had to skip today's event and decided to self-quarantine. this is a day after the grim milestone in the pandemic. initially more than 700,000 americans have died in the pandemic. for context, that's more than the entire population of the state of vermont. it's nearly 2000 americans right now still dying every day. we can say september was the deadliest month of the pandemic since february of 2021 with nearly 60,000 lives lost to

covid in one month. but there is some good news. in today's briefing the white house covid response team hack knowledged cases are on their way down. a 30% decrease in the last two weeks this. that's the good news. there's also good news on the treatment front. the pharmaceutical company merck announced promising new results from the latest pill trial on an anti-viral pill for covid. it reduced hospitalizations and deaths by half. the company plans to submit the data for fda emergency use authorization as soon as possible. if approved it could be the first covid treatment to hit the market in the form of a convenient pill. think tamiflu is what one person described. they have said treatments like this could be a game changer. patients can take the pill at home at the onset of symptoms like the flu medication i was talking about and they can get

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welcome back. as we said there has been good thuz in the overall coronavirus trend lines. dr. fauci said today a dip in the curve is no reason for the

unvaccinated to put off getting the shot. the administration's push to increase vaccination and vaccine confidence continues as covid misinformation remains rampant. youtube, a bit late but better late than never, announced a policy to remove more videos from the platform that sped harmful vaccine myths. after already removing more than 100,000 misleading videos. they got rid of accounts that may be making a bigger difference. and now clarke county, nevada is one of a handful to declare health misinformation a public health crisis. what does this mean? joining me now is justin jones, the clarke county commissioner. i want to start right there. you declared misinformation particularly on covid a public health crisis. what does that mean in practicality for clark county governance?

>> thanks. this is an epidemic within a pandemic. we have to call out people who are spreading the lies on social media and in person. so what does this mean? this means clarke county is going to take a stand against misinformation. we're going to take action. that means we're going to be out there in the public on our social media platforms, on our television platforms to make sure that people know that true information, the health information from our own public health officials from the health district and from our state public health officials. >> you know, it's interesting. it sounds like to me which is something that i've wondered if in basic journalism we have to get to this point. it's almost as if you have to make a concerted effort to flood the zone with facts to overwhelm the misinformation. and it sounds like that's what you're trying to do here. do you have the time? you know? that's part of the -- i assume the challenge. you've also got a county to govern. you've also got residents to take care of.

to do you have the resources to spend as much time as necessary to push back? >> the truth is i'm not in this alone. i have six other commissioners who are devoted to this. we got our county staff that are devoted to this. we got our health district folks on the frontlines from day one. and we have state resources. i'm grateful for our governor who has always listened to professionals to do the right thing. and we've partnered with others in this effort. so we've got latino groups, groups out there in their own communities making sure that the right information gets out there. because we know through social media and other means the wrong information is getting out there, and it's making people more hesitant to get the vaccine. which we know is safe and effective. >> do you think there should be some sort of accountability for medical professionals that are allowing their essentially their degrees be used for misinformation?

so, for instance, if you're a lawyer, and you essentially violate the norms of practicing law, you get disbarred. we know that much of the misinformation is usually based in somebody who claims they're a doctor or may be a medical doctor, maybe an md. should there be more of an effort to make sure they don't practice medicine if they're actively passing on misinformation? >> i'm a lawyer. i get the concept of disbarment. i think with the medical professionals, they have an obligation. i think if they are spreading misinformation, they should be held accountable by their state medical boards. >> and is there something you guys could do in clarke county that would make it difficult for a misinformer medical professional to essentially practice any sort of medicine in clarke county? >> no. there's -- the only thing we can do in clarke county -- but as a

state, they're our marter ins. i think there's already been movement afoot to make sure that those doctors that are spreading misinformation are held accountable and they're called out. i mean, public shaming is something that's valuable. and in this circumstance, public shaming of people who are spreading misinformation i think is something that's critical. >> do you feel as if -- give me your sense of is las vegas back safely? >> you know, we -- i went to the raiders game the first raiders game. i really praise the raiders for the action they took. they led the nfl by requiring vaccination for everyone who went to the game. goes to all their games. mgm has been another leader and other folks on the strip who have really led to make sure that people feel safe when they come to las vegas. i think vegas is back. we just got the latest gaming numbers for last month, and once again, we're at off the charts in terms of where we are, and i think that's because of the efforts of our public health

officials, because of the efforts of our folks in the gaming industry to make sure that people feel safe. and i think that we're in a place where we can say welcome back to las vegas. >> clarke county commissioner on the county's decision to make misinformation classified. appreciate you coming back and explaining your perspective. up next, one senator's efforts to draw attention to instagram's harmful effects on young teenagers in particular, did not go as planned. but it is bringing a lot of attention to this important issue anyway. you're watching "meet the press daily". t the press daily" smashed avocado and artisan italian bread. 100% wild-caught tuna. hold up! 100% wild-caught tuna ain't new! subway®'s always had 100% wild-caught tuna! y'all tried to sneak one in on the chuckster! want your clothes to smell freshly washed subway®'s always had all day without heavy perfumes? now they can! with downy light in-wash scent beads.

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welcome back. facebook's instagram app is facing new scrutiny for the effects on teens' mental health. a top facebook executive was grilled yesterday. it was the first of two hearings called after "the wall street journal" recently reported on internal facebook research showing the company knew of the harm it causes in young women in particular. senator richard blunl all this says his office conducted its own research into how toxic instagram can be. >> not displeased or disgruntled employees. facebook formal findings, it is

failing to hold itself accountable and the question that haunts me is how can we or parents or anyone -- >> thing to stop it until apple -- >> but while blumenthal's office may have created a fake instagram account, the senator himself seemed to be confused about the whole issue of fake accounts and who is in charge of so-called finstas. >> will you commit to ending finsta? >> senator, again, let me explain. we don't actually do finsta. it refers to young people setting up accounts where they want to have more privacy. >> finsta is one of your products or services. we're not talking about google or apple. it's facebook.

correct? >> finsta is slang for a type of account. it's not -- >> will you end that type of account? >> we -- i'm not sure i understand exactly what you're asking. >> the and the facebook executi who testified there says the company is dedicated, though, to protecting its youngest viewers. obviously we know, like that progressive ad, wondering whether you're becoming your parents, obviously we're having a moment like that with senator blumenthal. joining me to talk about what happened at the congressional hearing, cecilia kang, co-author of the book "the ugly truth: inside facebook's battle for domination." cecilia, i find what happened with senator blumenthal somewhat endearing because it got it a little bit more attention which he himself has touted here. so let's get at this issue of harm to young women.

and i say this as somebody who has a 17-year-old daughter and observed this problem four years ago when she first got her instagram account. what's more shocking, that facebook did the research, or that they kept it covered up? >> it's a great question, chuck. i think what's really interesting is, as a parent also of a teen, of teens, the reports and the research that facebook did confirmed what many of us already know anecdotally. it feels like common sense at this point, that it's just difficult for teens when they're on social media. they feel a lot of pressure and they feel oftentimes -- they self-report feeling like these apps feel toxic for them. what may be shocking is that they did the research and equally that they did not disclose it. i'm actually not surprised they did not disclose it. they do a lot of internal research. but the fact that this research was so damning, it showed that one in three people surveyed, one in three teens surveyed said after using instagram they felt worse about their body image,

and that of 16% of british users who felt like they had suicidal tendencies already, suicidal thoughts, that those 16% in the uk could trace those feelings to instagram, and 6% was the number in the u.s. those are astounding numbers, very disturbing figures as well. and this is the kind of research that the company knew about since about 2018, these results, and also the public face of the company, the public messaging of the company has been that actually that instagram and facebook do much -- have much more positive, net positive effects for teenagers, and they often push back against any concerns that third party researchers have said are pretty clear that these apps can be damaging and really contribute to harms and social/emotional problems for teens. >> i'm curious, do we assume -- i mean, we're just looking at

one segment of instagram users. young teenage girls. who is to say that if you extrapolated it out with all of social media, i mean, the rewiring of brains, you know, it feels as if, like you said, this is common sense, we all sort of look at this and we're all wondering, we'll say things like politics "x" has internet brain, meaning what's happened to them online. are we going to see research on that front as well for regular adults, on what this does? >> it's a great question. and i will note that this research was for boys and girls. and one thing that was really interesting that "the wall street journal" showed in the research they had disclosed is that instagram is a little unique. it's different than snapchat and tiktok, for example, particularly among youth, in that they found that instagram, with the filters they use,

beauty filters that make people look perfect, it's more anxiety-provoking than snapchat which has a lot of goofy filters focused on the face alone so there's not a lot of focus on the body. i thought that was fascinating, to show that there are some differences between these social media apps. as far as teenagers go, i think a lot of teenagers point to adult use as well, as modeling. i think there is a lot to say not just on the focus on teens but on adult use as well. >> is it fair to compare this to finding out that big tobacco had done their own research that cigarettes cause cancer? >> i think the fact that for years we've heard from mark zuckerberg, the head of instagram, and other executives at facebook, that instagram is a positive force for youth and they absolutely reject the idea

there are harmful effects. the fact that they have that public messaging but had been doing internal research that shows otherwise, it's really hard not to draw the comparison to what we saw with big tobacco decades ago where they had publicly been saying one thing but internally knew something different. i think those analogies feel appropriate. the products are completely different, one is chemically addictive, the other is different. but the process through which they hold back and don't disclose what they do know feels awfully familiar. >> because the next step is, and this is where i think it gets complicated, so if we think instagram is harmful for teens, should they be allowed to use it, right? we ban cigarettes, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen but it's illegal to purchase cigarettes unless you're 18 or 21 depending on the state, some of those laws are moving up to 21. can you imagine a scenario where instagram, not safe for, you know, for folks under 18?

>> i mean, it's pretty astounding how the internet and applications as products are not regulated in the same way that so many consumer products are. i think it's tricky, but history has shown that many consumer products do eventually become regulated. there is zero regulation on these companies right now. so as far as like banning children from using it, i think it will be hard, unless there is some regulatory regime. i do think there is something very positive that come out of this, in that i think if parents show -- for example, that "wall street journal" story on instagram, they read that story with their teenagers and show, you know what, we've been fighting so much about your use of instagram and your use of the xbox and all this stuff, but actually the companies have created a product that make you want to come back more and more, in fact maybe that can be a moment where parents and their children can get together, can focus their attention in a bonded way towards the companies and the business model. >> look, it has actually helped

me to say, hey, kids, mom and dad aren't the crazy ones here, this really is a problem, it actually has helped a lot. cecilia kang, "the new york times," appreciate you coming on and sharing what you've learned on this. thank you all for being with us. we'll be back monday with more "meet the press daily." sunday, a big "meet the press," maybe there's a deal, maybe there isn't. we'll have people like senator sanders and the congresswoman negotiating right here. msnbc coverage continues with geoff bennett right after this break. and not only make new discoveries, but get there faster, with better outcomes. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions, vmware helps companies navigate change-- meeting them where they are, and getting them where they want to be. faster. vmware. welcome change.

it is good to be with you. i'm geoff bennett. don't call it a comeback. and don't call it a setback either. that's the word from top democrats who say there's still time to bridge the gap between progressives and moderate holdouts and clinch a deal that would give president biden a top to bottom infrastructure overhaul and the biggest expansion of the social safety net since medicare. another sign that talks