that is how one white house senior adviser describes negotiations over a new social spending plan and hard infrastructure. how much and when remains a mystery. >> this is not a wish list why this is what the working families of this country want and the economy needs. the question is whether the democrats can come together and i think that we can to do what working families in this country want us to do. >> senator sanders making it clear how he sees the reconciliation bill. i'll ask senator hirono of hawaii. what she is willing to give up and what's not negotiable. with an economy on the ropes and a global pandemic to deal with, when he took office, we'll look at president biden's political pivot from candidate to president and what is motivating him to get the big packages passed.

also this. >> i think not all voices are heard and the voices of women are oppressed. >> just one of the many women speaks up at the rallies yesterday. what cases could impact women's rights there. a major mess that might be irreversible. talking with the mayor of huntington, california, about the oil spill and the big challenge to stop it. we do want to begin with the ongoing negotiations over the reconciliation and bipartisan infrastructure bills. joining me is representative hirono of hawaii. senator, thank you for joining us on this sunday. as always, we appreciate it. great to see you. >> good to be with you. >> give us an update on where we are at this hour coming the negotiations specifically on

reconciliation. >> that's exactly it. negotiations are proceeding. so when you talk about a bill that's 3.5 trillion, there are a lot of parts to it and we need to identify which program areas that we can support and then talk about how much money to put in each area. >> i actually spoke to congressman torres yesterday and posed this question earlier on my show, as well. i asked him about his nonnegotiables. he said for them it is the child tax credit that cannot be taken from the reconciliation bill and very needed in this country right now from his perspective. i want to pose the same question to you and ask you what are your nonnegotiables? what matters to you most in this bill and what effects your community the most? >> i say that the climate change

issues are really critical. but so many of the other areas support our families and so it's a question of how much we'll put into each of those family areas. the reconciliation bill is a 10-year proposal. so conceivably we can shorten some of the time frames to five years. you know? i'm going to be very flexible in how i will think about it. i like us to get to 3.5 trillion. >> yeah. yeah. you would like to get to 3.5 but realistically you think you'll get there or where do you expect to land? >> so much of the areas have to do with supporting the families so whether it's child care, you know, medicare that's all supporting the families and the communities so writ large i'd like to see us talk about how

much to put into each of these areas as an approach. >> before i read for you a part of senator sinema's statement from yesterday about the friday vote or lack thereof, just give me a glimpse behind the scenes as to conversations you have had with colleagues, senator manchin or sinema, about things they're willing to take from the reconciliation bill and they feel like doesn't necessarily need to be included in the bill right now to get more to the number they want to be at. have you had any behind the scenes off the cuff conversations with them about this? >> what's happening is our leadership that have been talking with them. the president. so i don't think it's helpful for us to pile on. for the rest of us as far as i'm concerned we have a lot of the democrats who are supporting the

3.5 trillion package pretty much as is so i have been calling for joe and krysten to tell us what areas they support to get down to the figures. >> let me read for you a part of the sinema statement from yesterday about the vote from friday. what americans have seen instead of an ineffective stunt to gain leverage of a separate proposal, good-faith negotiations however require trust. over the course of this year democratic leaders have made conflicting promises that could not all be kept and have at times pretended that differences of opinion within our party did not exist, even when those disagreements were repeatedly made clear directly and publicly. canceling the infrastructure vote further erodes that trust why what do you make of that

part of the statement, senator? >> i disagree because we all knew that this was a dual track proposal with the infrastructure bill and the build back better coming together. frankly, both of these bills need to pass on behalf of the american people to get everyone back on track and the economy going the way it should so i do not agree with her characterizing what's happening. >> instead of reacting to the lack of a vote on friday do you feel as the senators need to be more clear about the positions coming to reconciliation? >> yes. i have been calling for them to be much clearer about the areas they support to negotiate the amounts that should go into the areas. and it's been, in fact joe may be clarifying some things but we need to get down to it.

the bottom line is that we're going to get both of these bills passed. >> before you go i want to talk about the debt limit really quick and read for you a piece from "the washington post" talking about the debt ceiling fight. raising the debt ceiling today pays for yesterday's bills. specifically spending authorized when republicans were in power. the national debt grew exponentially during donald trump's presidency approaching world war ii lefrls at 128% of the gross domestic product. the national debt stands at about $28 trillion at this point and it rose by about 7.8 trillion under trump. jeff stein at "the post" wrote that. what do you have of this with mitch mcconnell saying it is not my problem. not the republicans' problem. our hands are clean and on the democrats' back when in fact

raising the debt limit, right, suspending the debt limit would be to pay for the bills that built up over four years under donald trump. >> sure. this is very typical of mitch mcconnell and his uncaring position. the fact is that a large part of that debt was the $1.5 trillion in tax cut that is the republicans are totally focused on giving in their time and now it is time to make sure that our economy doesn't tank. they take no responsibility for it. it's very typical of the republicans. they don't give a rip. they take no responsibility and i think the american people should know that. >> let me ask you one more question, senator. it is about criticism of the democratic party coming to wrangling the party as a whole to do away with the filibuster. we are taking a look at right

now what is happening with women's rights across this country, the law in texas, for example. voting rights. people say protections need to be in place for minorities, for women that they feel as if are being attacked and to do that the filibuster needs to be done away. yet democrats who have control of the house, the senate and also who have the white house are not able to figure out a way to get everybody on board to do away with the filibuster and putt the protections in place in place. >> i say we need to do filibuster reform. i go with the talking filibuster. i go with the targeted filibuster elimination for things like voting rights. women's right to choose. we can start with that. i personally would start eliminating the filibuster altogether to get on with the things that we need to do.

>> senator hirono, thank you for jumping on with us. i hope you enjoy the rest of your afternoon. thank you. >> you, too bye. i want to bring in the panel to dive into this. joining me is emily tisch and charlie sykes. emily, let's get your reaction to the senator on reconciliation. >> i was encouraged that the senator started with the end in mind by saying we are going to get to a deal. we are going to pass both bills, infrastructure and reconciliation. so i think starting with that is the best place that you can be. the downside for democrats to walk away is disaster. people who voted for democrats, democratic base, women that

don't vote for democrat, independents that did usher them in power in the presidency and both houses need to see results. like voters, women in particular, need to see what is this bill and support of child care and paid lever. they make choices to stay in jobs or look at different jobs and need to know that they can leave to have a child, a second parent or take care of a sick family member. they need to see democrats taking action to stand up and support them. i also supported the comments for the senators holding up the bill to be clear about what their bottom line is and then move forward and we don't have headlines like democrats in disarray. let's negotiate. like negotiations go and say what you want. i say what i want and get to a deal. >> i seen that headline quite a bit i got to say. charlie sykes, do we actually think the progressive caucus of

the democratic party would allow the hard infrastructure bill and the reconciliation to sink? >> that's an excellent question. it would be a bad time for the democrats to implode. look. the bottom line, this would be a disaster if the bills got nothing out of it because if democrats really believe that democracy faces a challenge and in the midst of this rolling assault on the democracy then the democrats need to act like it as opposed to playing a game of political chicken that could result in political catastrophe. democrats have a hard time with it because do the math. the democrats may control the three branches of government but not the progressives do not have a governing majority. they may want to have an lbj-like agenda. they may like to have a new new deal but thank you don't have the numbers and i think joe

manchin made that possibility last week saying you need to elect more lib lals with a bigger caucus and i think it's point out despite the focus there are moderates, centrists that object and furious to this game of political chicken resulting in not getting the bipartisan infrastructure bill. i have to tell you. i'm getting real freedom caucus vibes from the things going on right now and you asked would they be prepared to blow themselves up? we have seen this happen in the past. >> wait, wait, wait. you said a lot of stuff that kind of -- >> yes. i have a couple more. >> i have a couple notes and then, emily. first you said act like it. democrats need to act like it. what do you mean by that? >> well, number one, keep in mind that if you fail at this,

you not only don't get your agenda. you get a republican congress in 2022 and a second donald trump term. they have on the one-inch line of a massive bipartisan infrastructure bill. got 69 votes in the senate. they could pass that. they should have passed that last week. putt that on joe biden's desk and then messaged it. you know? in contrast they're fighting with one another right now and the mess anding is terrible. people don't know when's in the bill. they're not having public hearings on it and votes on it. they should call it the american family plan opposed to reconciliation bill. so i do think that people need to understand, really sobering, what the consequences of a democratic civil war right now. >> to be fair, emily, the

progressive caucus is essentially saying if we allow the vote on africa then we won't get anything done with reconciliation and passing these things in tandem at least the priorities in reconciliation can get done. and now it seems that the president is even on board with passing these things in tandem. charlie makes a valid point as he would but that is what we're hearing from the progressive side and the president being the leader of the democratic party also in lockstep with that. >> it does seem that everyone in power is on that page. that both infrastructure and reconciliation which is human infrastructure with child tax credit, paid leave, environmental pieces, health care, that will pass. that is an initial negotiation point from the progressive caucus and i think they won. that point will happen. doesn't seem light anyone walks away from it and i think part of -- this is negotiation to the

max. you have to be an expert here and although they do it in public and i don't think is going that well and to be more negotiation in private but i have faith adds pelosi to handle negotiations. she has been not just at the table but pushing the agenda items that are so important to democrats. why they voted democrats into the power in the first place. i don't see her or biden walking away from it. i think the pieces will move. i think to senator hirono's point the question is what funding levels go to the pieces. to be specific, we need to tell people what's in the bill on something like paid leave if we're proposing 12 weeks do you start with 12 or 6? is it funded for ten years or forever? those are the questions of the funding levels and that conversation to be having

publicly not this we want this, you want that level. >> one more thing to talk about and then wrap it up and like to go on for an hour. emily brought up nancy pelosi. i want you to weigh in on that. yesterday there's an idea that she is going to be done at the end of the term and losing the influence when it comes to negotiations and her mojo and then this idea of a kind of erosion of trust that senator sinema brought up in the scathing statement from yesterday and i wonder if you can weigh in on that along with the influence that she still has. >> that's a thing that worried me because i think that speaker pelosi who's a legislative master mind. she promised the moderates of a vote on the stand alone infrastructure bill. she was clearly pushing for

that. she said we cannot let the perfect be the enemy of the good and link them together and then the progressive caucus cut her off at the knees and i'm afraid that joe biden pivoted away from her. to the extent that she is losing some of her credibility this again i said and will get blowback from this the freedom caucus vibe and did to the republican speakers where they place cli were saying we won't go along with you and prepared to put in a position to break the promises. if you have negotiations everybody has to trust one another and i get the sense that right now there are people on both sides of this divide both progressives and the moderates who are really questioning whether they can trust the promises that are being made and that's a dangerous moment in politics particularly when the margins are so, so thin. so look at sinema's statement. but also the statement from one of the leading centrists in the

house of representatives and furious and you hope it's decided by the grown-ups in the room and the bases of good public policy but i'm sensing that there are some troubling personal dynamics growing right now. >> can i also point that -- we are only talking about democrats. if a republican wanted to have impact on legislation this would be an excellent point for them to swoop in and say i'll vote with you. put my favorite piece in. they don't want to vote with democrats. they could do that. >> that's not going to happen. emily, charlie, thank you to you both. dead birds and fish on shore due to the oil spill in california. work is being done right now to contain that spill after the break i'm going to be joined by kim carr. we'll be right back. there can be some not-so-pretty stuff going on, on the inside. it's true, if you have diabetes,

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welcome back. now to southern california where that massive oil spill spent over 126,000 gallons of crude oil into the ocean and could be leaking as divers need to make an assess. of the pipeline. the spill is of course devastating beaches in orange county. animals and pollution washing up on shore. joining me is huntington beach mayor kim carr. thank you for joining us.

i know that you wrapped up a press conference on what's taking place off the shores of the area. talk us through at this time what's happening. have they been able to find the source of the leak? >> they have been able to identify where the leak is. but at this time we have received confirmation that the leak is completely capped so to be proactive we have shut down the beaches. we have deployed over 1,000 -- excuse me, 2,000 feet of protective booms at different locations here because along with our beautiful coastlines we are also home to some of the most ecologically sensitive wetlands in southern california and been proactive to maintain the wetlanded and mitigate any impact. >> how long are the beaches going to be shut down? >> we don't know at this time and we are assessing that day by

day, hour by hour. really once we get a better understanding of exactly how that flow is going to hit the shoreline then we'll be better to assess how long this beach cleanup will take. >> let's talk about the damage that is already done and that could actually increase over the days to come. talking about a community that's been dealing with a pandemic. this country almost two years it seems at this point. shutting down of beaches in a place like orange county huntington beach is huge financially. what type of damage is this going to do financially to your community and environmentally with this oil spill? >> the health and safety are the most important priorities so shutting down the beaches is not something we take lightly and we did this in conjunction with the

orange county health agency to make sure that the residents and visitors are impacted. we are in the midst of a best air show in north america. yesterday we had 1.5 million people on our beach enjoying the air show and we were hoping to have a second day of that as well so you can imagine all of the restaurants and the hotels and everybody that were gearing up for this massive crush of them on the beach so to shut down not just the beaches and the air show was pretty devastating for this community but in the last 18 months i have seen this community rally and come together and despite the challenges we seem to face we come back stronger. so while the beaches are closed the rest of the city is not closed so there's other opportunities to come to huntington beach, explore and

enjoy it but for right now we need to keep the shoreline closed to protect everybody's health and safety. >> how can residents there help? >> we are going to be coordinating with different nonprofits. we have already partnered with the surf rider foundation. go to cleanups.surfrider.org and asking for opportunities to help and then partnered with the huntington beach wetland conservancy and this particular group deals with wildlife rescue and i have a telephone number for anybody who wants to reach out to them. 714-374-5587. and so between those two groups we're asking the community that have been reaching out to me and my council members to help and

we are working to coordinate the volunteers and then help with this cleanup. >> mayor carr, thank you for taking the time. we wish you the best of luck with this devastating spill. thank you. >> thank you so much. appreciate the time. with all the negotiations happening on capitol hill president biden's legislative agenda and legacy hang in the balance. we'll look ahead to how this could play out and its affects on the midterm elections. that's next. at t-mobile for unconventional thinking means we see things differently, so you can focus on what matters most. whether it's ensuring food arrives as fresh as when it departs. being first on the scene, when every second counts. or teaching biology without a lab. we are the leader in 5g. #1 in customer satisfaction. and a partner who includes 5g in every plan, so you get it all. without trade-offs.

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broken promises and broke b trust. that is how some moderate and progressive democrats are summarizing the stage of infrastructure talks. negotiations they seem to have reached an impasse. complicated of course by progressives' refusal to bend on the spending bill's price tag

and centrist fury over the delay to the vote. with me to discuss this is peter baker. thank you for joining us. appreciate it. there's a couple different avenues on this and i think the first is an overarching view of how this could play for the midterm elections. right? this is this idea that the biden administration needs a major win legislatively to gain more seats coming to the midterms and just maintain the control that they have now. how much do you think what is happening now will play into that? >> yeah. i think you are exactly right about that. this is critical for the midterms and depends on the outcome. if in fact they get to a compromise, if they pass the hard infrastructure bill and then some sort of a safety net expansion that is seen as being

robust in the end probably people don't remember the messy process that we had go through to get there. that was the case in big legislation in the past. what you remember is the final result but if it doesn't get there and unable to get passed this impasse that is a big challenge for president biden and the democrats because they have staked everything on this. not just one bill. he put in this $3.5 trillion reconciliation package as they call it the vast majority of his policy priorities whether it be child care, community college, medicare expansion, climate change and if that doesn't happen that would be debilitating for the presidency and tough to explain the next election. they know how important this is but they want to make sure that the president looks like he can accomplish what he says he wants to accomplish. he ran on confidence. that's an important issue going

into next year, as well. >> yeah. and that's a key point you made. i think to myself. there's no way that the progressive arm of the democratic party to allow the sinking of the biden agenda full well knowing if they do the midterms are that much more difficult and the democrats could be in a worse position. i want to read for you a piece from "new york times," the title is biden throws in with the left leaving the agenda in doubt. the way he is governing doesn't reflect the skills i know he must have from his years. a moderate democrats demanding an immediate vote on a trillion-dollar infrastructure bill convinced that what was the president wanted or at least needed she called the refusal to pub harder fehr legislation

disatonighting and frustrating. there seems to be a fracture of moderate and progressive democrats and wondering if this fracture could be repaired and even now right the president being grouped in with the progressives and lockstep as of friday with them voting in tandem on the bills. >> with a majority allowing for losing no votes you have to bring the coalition together because you cannot lose a single vote in the senate and more than three in the house and need progressives and moderates. if you don't get them on board you don't have a majority in that senate. there's a risk to push them away which is a real risk. george w. bush saw that in his first year in office with a 50-vote republican majority with a vice president breaking the tie and pushed away a moderate republican alienated and didn't control the senate anymore. that could happen here or something else with 50 votes in

the senate so you have a lot at stake and in fact anything could happen any time. i remember what senator john mccain used to say. it is always darkest before it goes completely black. this will be a bad moment if this is the final outcome but they know they can't afford for that to be the final outcome and the good news for democrats is they agree on the principles here. this is not a difference on abortion or gay marriage, same-sex marriage or guns with genuinely hard felt principles and have a hard time to negotiate. they're talking about numbers. which one gets the highest priority. usually that's what you can agree on. we'll see if they can. >> it's a big gap in numbers. one point basically sanders and

manchin at a standoff. sanders saying we won't come off 3.5 and then senator schumer voted a paper in august knowing that 1.5 is the top line. there's a major gap in the numbers coming to this negotiation and why i think people have skepticism to land they both want to land. >> yeah, no. it is a big gap obviously but at this moment you're not going to signal where you will end up because you end up giving away territory. sticking by 3.5 or 1.5 doesn't tell you where they end up because that will be hashed out in private presumably. depends on the democrats recognizing they need something other than nothing and can come to a middle ground where

everybody's on board anding the -- and it is a big if. >> thank you for jumping on. thank you. great to see you. >> thank you. all right why coming up why the future of the fight for the women's rights. the justice department taking on texas for things like day care and work programs and diving into the legal ramifications next. your six, limu. they need customized car insurance from liberty mutual so they only pay for what they need. woooooooooooooo... we are not getting you a helicopter. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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special prosecutor and general counsel of the army. thank you for joining us on this. talk about the energy at the march yesterday. >> it was fabulous where i was and in downtown chicago was a bigger crowd. and across the country it was a big crowd. the rallying cry is freedom of reproductive health and so many other issues of concern to women now at the state and federal level. equal pay. the equal rights amendment. child care. all sorts of things. funding cutbacks for education including no pre-k. those are things that affect women directly. >> i think we may have lost jill. we're going to try to get her back. as soon as we can and bring her to you if we are able.

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welcome back. so often in our policy discussions talking about the political negotiations happening inside washington we forget about the human story. the single mom going to benefit from free child care or reduced child care at that. the kid that worked the tail off to get to college and realize they can't pay for it. a family now struggling to make ends meet. homes destroyed. lives changed forever because of climate change and only going to get worse not better. i'm guilty of it. i talking more policy and less people we are in the media. a headline this morning bernie sanders saying spending bill's price tag likely lower. i knew he was steadfast on 3.5 trillion and said we negotiated the human infrastructure bill down and weren't going to go

more and now it could be of an indication over the stalemate on infrastructure. that said nowhere in the piece did it say this is what would be cut or what part is less important than the other. here's a $2 trillion package. it is incumbent upon us to provide that information and the human side why who the passage of the infrastructure bill would impact and some changes could change the social structure in this country and what would that look like? all things i think often lost in negotiations behind every dollar and number is a person with a story and it's incumbent upon us and our responsibility to shine a light on that. we'll be right back. k.

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we got her back. want to bring in jill wine banks, msnbc contributor. thanks for sticking with us. hopefully we have you back and we're going to keep you this time around. let's talk about the fall scotus term as well as the assault on women's rights. first, talking about the texas abortion law, sb-8. first, the broad consensus from legal experts is this was unconstitutional. now we have this battle brewing from the doj approach on sb-8. it seems as if it's not as cut and dry as was once thought. >> i think it is, actually. i think that we have the dobbs

case coming up, which will look moderate compared to sb-8. sb-8 says six weeks. i want to point out something everyone is missing. it's not six weeks from conception. it's six weeks from the last menstrual cycle. which means you may only be less than a month pregnant when this ban comes into effect. so that's something that really is important. there's not enough time in texas. it's clearly a violation of roe and casey. the 15 weeks is also, but it's starting to sound reasonable in comparison. but there are a lot of cases coming up in the supreme court, not just the dobbs v. mississippi, but other cases that are based on either the first amendment religious exception, first amendment freedom of expression, which is an interesting -- there's one fecv. cruz, senator cruz has

challenged a law that says you cannot pay back your loans to your own campaign if you raise money after the election. except for a certain amount, and he deliberately contributed more than that amount in order to challenge it. now, i fear that we'll be back extending citizens united beyond what even that does to campaign finance laws. so there's a lot pending that isn't clear but that could really affect our democracy. >> so i want to go back to sb-8 because you had a lot there. i want to go back to sb-8 and read to you from politico, i'm talking about the challenge i mentioned from the doj. one challenge facing justice department attorneys in the new suit filed on september 9th is they can point to no specific statute that gives the federal government the right to sue over a law like the texas one. what do you make of that? >> well, it's true. where it has been applied in the

past has been things where it is clear that the federal government has the preeminent right, something like immigration, where it's clearly the federal government that controls immigration. in the case of abortion, that isn't true. that has long been a state's right. on the other hand, you cannot have a law passed by a state to deliberately evade any court review by making standing available to private citizens anywhere in the country and the first challenges, by the way, to that law, have been brought by a disbarred lawyer from illinois and someone in jail. so it is a problem, but it's one that cannot be allowed to stand. there has to be a challenge to the law. >> jill wine-banks, as always, rocking her pin and can now add activist to her many accomplishments and titles. thank you, jill. great to see you this afternoon.

>> thank you. >> all right, speaking of texas, there are newly proposed redistricting plans drawing criticism and concern over republican-led gerrymandering that could extend to other states ahead of next year's midterms. want to bring in senior reporter jane timm who has been covering this and joining me. great city you on this sunday. what more can you tell us about this proposed new map and how it relates to the census data that it's supposed to be going off of? >> yeah, texas saw enormous growth in the last decade. they got two new congressional seats and we see two republican proposals coming out and offering draft maps. draft maps, they can change, and they might well change in the session as lawmakers try to tweak things. but what we're seeing is republicans are proposing essentially entrinching white political power at the expense of communities of color. we know this not because this is a judgment call. this is a data call. there are fewer minority

majority districts and more white majority minority districts. 2 million new hispanic voters in texas were added in those census numbers. that's half of the growth that texas saw, and there are now new hispanic majority seats in texas. the way they have done this is essentially like a mix of crafting and packing to eventually just entrench the current political power. so a lot of incombnlts saw their seats become more safe. they're very, very few competitive seats in texas under these plans. instead, republicans got safer seats and even democrats who were there, democratic incumbents definitely not some seats that will make their elections easier but keep those seats around them more conservative. >> can we expand on that a little bit? because i think it's important for folks to really understand, if in fact this is solidified, this map is solidifies, how it's going to affect the upcoming

elections and republican control. >> yeah, the step is really hard to explain sometimes, but basically, these maps max it so there's two more republicans in congress. they added two more conservative seats in the overall balance. the 23 safely conservative seats in this. as well as keeping the existing democratic seats at 13 seats, i think. with 38 total congressional seats, and how this is like drawing a district in austin. there's a new vote think. that makes sure the seat, very blue, keeping with the balance of democratic seats that exist, but all the seats around it are more conservative. and the way you draw these lines truly can choose the number of voters that are in there. so when you have a very diverse, fast diversifying state, state in texas, you're seeing a lot of white seats. this is why people are so worried about these maps.

>> jane timm, thanks so much for walking us through that. as always, we appreciate it. >> that wraps up the hour for me, everybody. i'm yasmin vossoughian. i'll be back next saturday and sunday at 3:00 p.m. eastern. i'm going to turn it over to reverend sharpton and "politics nation." >> good evening, and welcome to "politics nation." on a special birthday edition. today is my birthday. and that is tonight's lead i take on my birthday, is divided we stand. right now, i think the nation needs some long overdue therapy, because the residual trauma of the previous administration has left america unable to determine what democracy and governance looks like. and i can't blame us. with the persistent drama