getting up "way too early" and indulging my talk about the red sox. we'll see you again here tomorrow morning and on "morning joe," which starts right now. this week in covid history. it's covid 2020, and the president is back on the buggy. >> i just left walter reed medical center. i'm better. maybe i'm immune. i don't know. >> what doesn't kill you makes you wronger. >> i learned so much about coronavirus. and one thing that's for sure, don't be afraid of it. >> don't be afraid of it. the same thing he told stormy when she locked herself in the bathroom. >> science medicine will eradicate the chinese virus once and for all. it is disappearing. >> until then. >> perhaps you recognize me, your favorite president. if you're in the hospital and feeling really bad, i heard about this drug that's called regeneron. i wasn't feeling so hot. they gave me regeneron, and it was like unbelievable. i feel great.

i feel like perfect. regeneron, i call that a cure. >> warning, not a cure. >> on to the vp debate to address the nation's problems head on. >> climate change. health care. >> abortion. >> gun care. >> systemic racism. >> a fly? >> a fly lands on mike pence's horse. >> forget about the other boring stuff. >> that fly nested in his hair. >> did he know it was on his head? >> the aforementioned fly. >> the fly on mike pence's head. >> the fly. [ speaking foreign language ] >> help me, mother! mother! >> this has been this week in covid history. >> the last one. >> mike pence news. big mike pence news coming up on "morning joe" this morning.

actually headlining our news this morning. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, october 6th. along with joe -- are you awake, joe? >> no, i'm not, actually. >> willie, are you awake? >> no. no, no. joe is awake and happy, i'm awake and sad. >> great. this is going to be fun. white house reporter for the "associated press" jonathan lemire. definitely not awake. and i'm going to give you a round of applause for showing up to work, which you're expected to do every day and often is an issue. >> i'm awake and alert. >> willie, you're outnumbered here, 3-1 ratio. not really fair. so anything can happen in the one-game playoffs, and a lot of stuff did. the red sox actually looked like a complete team last night for the first time this year.

but there's something about the rivalry that brings out the best or the worst. but the big news for you guys, and we've seen it when the starters didn't get past the second or third inning, nothing goes good after that. >> yeah. gave the ball to gerrit cole, the guy we paid a lot of money for, the guy who we were hoing to be the horse throughout the playoffs, we gave us two innings before he was pulled by boone. the red sox were clearly the better team. they hit better. pitched better. couple home runs here from schwarber. a little fenway magic, too, with the green monster. giancarlo stanton would have had three home runs in the other ballpark. ended up having one. two of them going off the monster. then there was that pivotal play in the sixth inning when aaron judge tried to score at the plate. probably shouldn't have gone, but also the red sox executed beautifully.

hit the cut-off man. bogaerts gunned him down at the plate, and the game turned from there. 6-2 was the final. yankees lose. red sox, i say it here, congratulations to you guys. they move on to play the rays tomorrow night. >> couple things, willie. you would have thought that the decision to wave judge home to third was the dumbest decision in the history of baseball if you had listened to the espn announcers call it that. but it took a couple of perfect throws. >> yeah. >> kiké getting rid of the ball. perfect throw from xander to get it out. it was a risk teams would have taken. >> if he hadn't gone, it'd be second and third with one out. 3-1, different game probably. like you say, beautiful throw from the outfield. beautiful relay throw right to the glove. wasn't really close at the plate. they were just better last night. there's not much else i can say. you guys won it.

we now, 12 years since the last world series title. we need one more piece. one more pitcher to get through these playoffs. >> stanton really was incredible. stanton is a guy who has been so bad over the past couple years against the red sox. he did something that i thought was impossible. he made we feel sorry for a yankee superstar. he looked so lost at the plate. >> yeah. >> i would call mike barnicle and say, the poor kid. i feel sorry for him. he looks lost. i don't feel sorry for stanton anymore. absolute monster. talk about being a gamer in october when his team has needed him. you know, this red sox team, a team that was supposed to win 80, 81 games. a team that was swept by the yankees last weekend. a team that lost two out of three in baltimore, against baltimore, all in the last week, somehow turned things around last night.

>> yeah. joe, i'll tell you, it was a very satisfying win last night, as you can tell from my voice. i was yelling and screaming there all night. got back to the house at quarter to 2:00 this morning. fully alert and alive. last night, giancarlo stanton, he showed up and carried the yankee team across the threshold the last two weeks. last night, as pointed out, the balls he hit, there is an old expression at fenway park. the wall giveth, and the wall taketh. it took two home runs from stanton last night. the relay throw to the field was perfect baseball. kike hernandez got the ball off the wall backing up. the perfect relay. the yankees seemed not to show up after about the third inning. the biggest difference in my

mind in that game was who was in the dugout for each team. aaron boone is a truly, wonderful human being, a terrific person. not a great in-game manager. alex cora is both a terrific person and a fantastic in-game manager. he badly out-managed the yankees' manager last night. one of the big underlying stories last night, joe, has to do with everything we've been through as a nation and as a world across the last 19 to 20 months, suffering from covid. the red sox, of course, had several unvaccinated players. but the crowd last night was as electric and as together, literally, figuratively close together. 38,000 people in that ballpark. with noise and clamor and excitement that i haven't seen or heard in that ballpark in maybe two to three years. and the funny, odd thing last night, the massachusetts state lottery number came up last

night just prior to the game. the winning numbers were announced about 7:00. the numbers were 1, 9, 7, 8. true story. 1978. >> wow. >> wow. >> that is crazy. speaking of yet another yankees curse on the red sox, lemire, it was said we had the dust of calvinism on us. maybe, just maybe, it's time for us to stop whining all the time about the red sox and how we're going to lose. this is a team that cobbled things together extraordinarily well. cora, if he's not coach of the year this year, i don't know what year they're going to finally give it to him. pause -- because he took a team that should have been playing .500 ball and took them here. let's face it, because you and i know, we're not getting far in

these playoffs. last night was our world series. celebrate it. take the chips off the table. get in our impala and go home. >> joe, if whining all the time gets the red sox to play better, we should keep doing it, obviously. last night was really terrific. this was -- agreed, we shouldn't lose sight of this. this was a team where there wasn't much expected this year. they overachieved in the first half, faded in the second half. at the time, seemed they didn't get the help at the trade deadline, though schwarber is a wonderful piece. took good play against the nationals to get them to the playoffs. last night, cora pushed the right buttons and had faith in the bullpen. job the job done. bogaerts hadn't hit in weeks and he had a home run and was in the

middle of a bunch of plays, including the play at the plate. cole, a big contract. against houston and again last night with the yankees, didn't show up. they're the significant underdogs against the rays. anything can happen. we'll hope for the best. what mattered was winning last night. a loss against the yankees would have plunged us into a dark, cold winter. instead, the red sox and yankees played in the playoffs 2004, 2018, 2021. >> here it comes. >> red sox won all three. >> willie, there it comes. last night after the game was over, i expected lemire to finally drop his facade. sure enough, he did. he said, you know, i'm just so bored with beating the yankees in october. >> oh. >> i think i'm going to bed. >> oh. >> i said, lemire, lemire,

please willie, we have more great baseball ahead. tonight. i can't think of a team with a worse draw in baseball in quite some time. los angeles dodgers win 106 games, and they're going against probably the best team in baseball right now in the cardinals. >> how would you like to win 106 games, not win your division, and perhaps be eliminated in a single-game playoff? it's wild. that's how the san francisco giants were. the dodgers couldn't catch them. cardinals had that 17-game win streak over about 2 1/2, 3 weeks recently. they're definitely the hottest team in baseball. listen, the dodgers are absolutely great. i wouldn't want to cross the st. louis cardinals right now. we'll see what happens in that game. it's a coin toss, just like last night was in the wild card. one last thing i'll say about the yankees. a lot of talk about boone, whether or not he'll be back for

a fifth season. aaron boone, the players love him, what a great manager he is. i read an extraordinary stat. since 1922, so 100 years, no yankees manager has been given a fifth season without winning a world series. aaron boone has not won a world series. he would be breaking 100-year precedent. those are the expectations of a manager in the bronx. >> it's not just boone. i think the yankees -- and i'm curious if you'd agree, willie. the yankees, of course, were an all or nothing team this year. it's the way they were set up. it's the way they were designed, to hit home runs or go home. sure, during the regular season, they got some great win streaks out of it. when the bats went cold, they lost. don't they also need to change just fundamentally and be less of an all in or all out team?

>> yeah. they're home run hitters. they pay a lot of money who can hit the ball out of the ballpark, which is nice. you also have to move people around. you have to have speed on the base paths. we have to do all the things that keep you out of those. they start slow, have long slogs where they slip behind, then they have to play great at the end to get into the playoffs. could use another pitcher. they got the best pitcher in baseball at the time in gerrit cole. they've got to find one other guy they can lean on. yeah, it's been, you know, 2009 they won that world series. really, the dynasty ended in 2004 when the red sox came back to beat them. yankees honestly haven't been the same thing. >> okay. now i realize i probably should have let you go, joe, to boston. >> uh-huh. >> you and jack calling mike all the time where i sleep does not work. screaming at the top of your lungs. >> hard for people who don't

follow baseball to understand, but, willie, with baseball, i'm superstitious. the rest of my life, just do it. you work harder, you win. if you don't, you don't. but i'm superstitious. poor mika. last night, jack came in, started watching the game. we were going to go downstairs. unfortunately for mika, xander hits a home run. i'm frozen. i have to stay in the place i am. jack has to stay. light haves to stay on. it was getting hotter in the room. mika had been asleep. i said, i need to turn on the fan but i can't turn the fan on. the second to last catch is on, fan goes on, lights are off, jack and i are yelling. you would have done the same thing, right, willie? >> absolutely. >> mika had a restless night, too. you have to do it that way, willie. >> you have to sit in the same place. if you have success sitting in one chair, you must always sit in that chair.

george geist switched his t-shirt mid game, put on the jeter t-shirt, looking to call back the magic from the early 2000s. unfortunately, it did not summon the ghost. >> y'all are not well. >> it's working the algorithms. i talked to my friend paul who is a yankees fan. one other thing, too, willie, that we have to say before we go. paul and i say this all the time. it's a long season. when the yankees collapse the first half of the season, paul was depressed, i said, "it's a long season. you'll come back and beat us." the yankees have their run. then last weekend, who would have guessed after the yankees swept the red sox that it would have ended this way? but baseball is a really long season. these poor kids, i say poor kids, but they've got to stay tough mentally. 162 games. then, only then, do you get into the playoffs and you start again. >> speaking of -- >> don't cut him off. he was going to say something. >> go ahead, willie.

>> i can see the pain on mika's face. i yield my time to you, mika. >> thank you. >> oh, okay. speaking of algorithms, we'll have the latest on facebook in a moment. big news there. the testimony. first, former vice president mike pence once again downplaying the january 6th attack on the capitol. you remember, the one where rioters were threatening his life, chanting, "hang mike pence." here's what he said in an interview on fox news monday night. >> i know the media wants to distract from the biden administration's failed agenda by focusing on one day in january. they want to use that one day to try to demean the character and intentions of 74 million americans who believed we could be strong again and prosperous again and supported our administration in 2016 and 2020. but for our part, i truly believe we all ought to remain completely focused on the future. >> wow.

well, i believe we should be optimistic of the future, so long as people like mike pence are kept out of office forever if they really want to downplay what he calls one day in january. mike barnicle, it's like calling 9/11 one day in september. pearl harbor one day in december. this was one of the low points, one of the low points in american political history. certainly since the civil war. one day in january where trump supporters took american flags and bashed cops' brains. one day in january where pence supporters smeared excrement on the walls of the united states congress. one day in january where donald trump, mike pence's partner, was actually calling people to come up to the capitol and to stop

the count. rudy giuliani talking about that same day to this crowd of rioters and mobsters, saying, "you need to engage in combat justice." one of trump's children saying, "we're coming for you." before they came for bashed law enforcement officers' heads in. used american flags to bash american officers' heads in. they chanted "hang mike pence. hang mike pence. hang mike pence." mike pence's wife and children were endangered. let me say that again. mike pence's wife and children were in danger. they were scared. afraid that mike pence might get caught and get hung because they had the noose. they want the chants, and they were looking for him. yeah, that's what mike pence now is trying to blame on the american media.

instead of blaming it on donald trump and the guy that he now, once again, is bowing and scraping to receive his approval, mike. >> you know, joe, the odd thing about this story and the clip we just played of the former vice president speaking is he is irrelevant. he has become irrelevant. but what he was talking about, strangely enough and threateningly enough, has become the most potent threat to the way we govern ourselves, what happened on january 6th. because those assembled there in the capitol of the united states of america were part of an attempted coup. further proof of the coup has been played out in the months since january 6th. including the preposterous legal memo by eastman, outlining exactly how they could overturn the legitimate, legal election

of an incoming president of the united states. that is with us today much more so than it was on january 7th. out there in this country of ours, there are millions of people, unfortunately, who have been fed this lie, who believe this lie, and now this lie is of such proportion that in state after state we've seen it play out. not just in arizona. in state after state, it threatens the very fundamentals of how we govern ourselves, of how we elect our leaders, and how we propose to go forward as a nation. >> yeah. disgraceful comments there from vice president mike pence. we'll come back to that in a moment. we want to turn to facebook and the day after a global outage for the company. a whistleblower testified on capitol hill, describing to a senate committee just how dangerous she believes facebook really is. senior washington correspondent hallie jackson reports. >> reporter: facebook under

fire. >> the company's leadership knows how to make facebook and instagram a saver, but don't make the changes because they put their astronomical profits before people. >> reporter: haugen insists congress must act against the company, holding the ceo to account. >> the buck stops with mark. >> reporter: haugen left facebook in may, armed with tens of thousands of internal documents, some showing the company knows its instagram app can contribute to eating disorders in teen girls. a characterization facebook has disputed. >> it's just like cigarettes. teenagers don't have good regulation. they say, i feel bad when i use instagram, yet i can't stop. we need to protect the kids. >> reporter: to do that, haugen says, facebook must share about their algorithms, determining what shows up on your feed. incentivized toward problematic

posts. >> it is like the department of transportation regulating cars by only watching them drive down the highway. >> reporter: from facebook and aggressive defense,. >> what you have here today is a former employee who didn't work on these issues and was just at the company a couple of years mischaracterizing documents she stole. >> seems to me an attempt by facebook to undermine her credibility. is your strategy to go after the messenger and not the message? >> hallie, our strategy is to make sure we're giving people accurate information about what we're doing. facebook actually has been calling for regulation for more than 2 1/2 years now. >> reporter: on regulating big tech, rare bipartisan agreement after years of hearings. congress calling for changes. those could include internal research released to outside parties. stronger oversight that demands transparency. or that platforms share their

algorithms with regulators. >> if facebook is serious and honest, there will be legislation for them to support on privacy, on oversight, on protecting children. we'll see whether they are serious. i hope they are. because big tech is facing its big tobacco moment. it is a moment of reckoning. >> hallie jackson reporting there. facebook ceo mark zuckerberg shared publicly an internal memo to staff on tuesday. he wrote, quote, we care deeply about issues like safety, well-being, and mental health. it is difficult to see coverage that misrepresents our work and our motivmotives. at the most basic level, we don't recognize the false picture of the company being painted. that's from mark zuckerberg. >> wow. >> we go to co-author of the book entitled "an ugly truth, inside facebook's battle for domination." cecelia, you dove deep into the inner workings of facebook.

mark zuckerberg says he doesn't recognize the picture painted of his company. do you based on what you've done in reporting and based on what you heard from frances haugen yesterday? >> yes. listening to frances haugen, we really feel like she confirmed so much of what we have in our book, which really is about how this company has prioritized growth. it has chosen to be in a business of agitation. all the technology tools and the business is geared toward getting people to come back more and more. the consequences of those decisions are that you have things like a teenage girl on instagram who may feel insecure about her body and want to lose weight suddenly get pushed to different group and content that promotes eating disorders. the consequence is hate groups spreading and organizing for january 6th. the consequence is misinformation spreading rapidly because engagement is a core. misinformation on vaccines and the election. that was really what we showed in our book as well as what

ms. haugen said. which is the core of the problem is the systems. it is a beating heart problem where the systems, the algorithms, promote the most engaging and the most agitating content, which often can be very harmful content. >> cecelia, it is pretty incredible. we just showed mike pence talking about the january 6th riots. the seditious riots against the united states of america. they were trying to hang him. his only defense was, it's the media's fault. mark zuckerberg, in responding to facebook's own internal documents and the reporting of it, what does he do? he doesn't talk about their internal documents. he blames the media. is that really all that's length of time for mark zuckerberg to do, as he makes $120 billion off of poor teenage girls and the savaging of america's democracy? >> yeah. it was pretty extraordinary in

the post that he made last night on his facebook page. the company remains pretty defiant and defensive. he dug in his heels. they say the company is being unfairly criticized, and that the research that frances haugen, the tens of thousands of pages, is taken out of context. and that everybody is getting it wrong. it's almost like two parallel worlds that are being -- views of the world that exist right now, that within facebook and that of the rest of the world. however, what frances haugen did was she gave an unvarnished insider's account. that was what was new yesterday in her testimony. she was able to say with a lot of authority, and very substantively, how she has viewed how the company operates, as well as backing her views with tens of thousands of pages of documents. >> cecelia, it is jonathan lemire. wanted to talk to you about what might happen next. what sort of measures or

remedies might congress take in the wake of these hearings? one thing that had been considered, which seems like a dramatic step, is the congressman asking to have access to the algorithm facebook uses when they promote things in feeds. it is basically their secret sauce, like their secret ingredient. i'd have to think they'd fight tooth and nail before letting that go. walk us through, what could happen here? >> yeah. there's a new discussion in washington, very much prompted by frances haugen, the whistleblower's testimony, where the focus has shifted from things like speech regulation and privacy regulation to regulation of the algorithms, the core technology that runs facebook. what is being discussed is whether facebook should be compelled or forced to allow researchers, in particular, to see how the algorithms work and, therefore, to see how misinformation and harmful content spreads. i definitely think facebook will push back, this is their secret sauce. but this is not about the public being able to see and dissect,

and competitors, how the company does choose algorithms that are proprietary and competitive to them. this is researchers being able to see how companies function, like facebook, and they're able to spread harmful content. so i do think it's a level of conversation that is substantial and gets much more to the heart of the problems that facebook poses. so that felt very new to me and encouraging, frankly. >> the book is "an ugly truth, inside facebook's battle for domination." cecelia kang, thank you for coming on the show this morning. we'll be covering this a lot more throughout the show today. still ahead on "morning joe," senate democrats considero raise the debt limit. but would everyone in the party be involved? the latest on that capitol hill fight. and the ongoing divisions over infrastructure. plus, over the past decade, democrats have been struggling in the midwest.

a "new york times" report is digging into the reasons why and how it could spell trouble in the years ahead. >> big trouble. a great piece by jay martin. also, new research lays out the life-saving benefits of covid-19 vaccines. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. i can tell you we parted amicably the end of the administration. we've talked a number of times since we both left office. >> pence lied to us. he is a treasonous pig. his name will be mud forever. >> the media wants to distract from the biden administration's failed agenda by focusing on one day in january. >> hang mike pence. >> bring out pence. >> bring him out! >> they want to use that one day to try to demean the character and intentions of 74 million americans. >> hang mike pence! hang mike pence! hang mike pence! >> who believed we could be strong again and prosperous again and supported our

administration in 2016 and 2020. at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. bipolar depression. it made me feel like i was trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of people living with bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place... ...and be hard to manage. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight.

this is where i want to be. latuda is not for everyone. call your doctor about unusual mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children, teens, and young adults. elderly dementia patients on latuda have an increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor about fever, stiff muscles, and confusion, as these may be life threatening... ...or uncontrollable muscle movements, as these may be permanent. these are not all the serious side effects. now i'm back where i belong. ask your doctor about latuda and pay as little as $0 for your first prescription. bogeys on your six, limu. and pay as little as $0 they need customized car insurance from liberty mutual so they only pay for what they need. woooooooooooooo... we are not getting you a helicopter. only pay for what you need.

♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

wanna help kids get their homework done? well, an internet connection's a good start. but kids also need computers. and sometimes the hardest thing about homework is finding a place to do it. so why not hook community centers up with wifi? for kids like us, and all the amazing things we're gonna learn. over the next 10 years, comcast is committing $1 billion to reach 50 million low-income americans with the tools and resources they need to be ready for anything. i hope you're ready. 'cause we are.

♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." 34 past the hour. beautiful shot of boston for you, joe, this morning. >> i love that dirty water. >> here's some of the stories making headlines this morning. a new federal report shows the covid-19 vaccine saved thousands of lives among older or disabled americans, even within its first few months of rollout. according to analysis from the department of health and human services, from january through may, vaccinations prevented about 265,000 cases, 107,000 hospitalizations, and 39,000 deaths among medicare recipients. the report also found that for each increase of 10 percentage points in a county's vaccination rate, the number of covid

hospitalizations and deaths among medicare recipients fell 11% to 12%. the department of homeland security this week issued a warning that extremists, including domestic terrorists, are likely plotting attacks on the health care sector. the document obtained by abc news notes anti-vaccine messaging will likely increase as vaccine mandates increase. the notice warns some of the misinformation and disinformation now circulating is being pushed and promoted by russia, china, and iran to increase anger and chaos across the country. nbc news has not seen a copy of the document. hospitals across the country are reporting a sharp rise in the number of attacks against health care workers.

cal perry has more. >> we've seen a tripling of assaults on our workers. >> reporter: the stress of covid is bubbling over. multiple factors is contributed to the rise. overworked staff, strained resources to care for patients, covid rules over masks, and visitation limits. >> you've got to tell the family members, you need to wait outside. we need to get this patient stabilized. that's really hard for the families, and it makes them update. >> reporter: in massachusetts, panic buttons. patients beating and spitting on workers. assaults jumped from 40 to 123 between 2019 and 2020. >> we have the chance to press the button, and security knows exactly where we are. if we have to chase a patient down, they know where our last location is. >> reporter: it comes as hospitals struggle to keep workers on the job with many facing severe nursing shortages. >> they're exhausted. there's fewer and fewer people that feel they can bear the risk

to come to work. the risk of being exposed to covid. the risk of verbal, physical, sexual assault. those are real risks to a lot of folks. >> reporter: hospital groups and unions asking states to step in, calling for increased penalties for those who assault medical staff. >> like so many things in our society, laws do have to change to ultimately change behaviors over time. >> reporter: the nightmare for many health care workers extends beyond the walls of the hospital. folks telling us some are taking their badges off before they go shopping in the evening. they don't want folks to know what it is they do for a living. >> my gosh. >> think about it. >> so painful. >> first of all, they're going into the hospitals knowing that they're going to be walking in and treating mainly people that didn't get vaccinated. people that put themselves in that position for the most part, overwhelmingly. 90% or so didn't get the vaccination, so they're going to go in and try to help people who

decided not to help themselves. i think that's -- that's very charitable. >> and threaten the lives of others. >> but they made that decision because they got into the business of helping the sick, right? so they go in there, and now, mika, they have to take off their badges when they move around, even inside the hospital, because they're afraid they're going to be attacked, they're going to be abused, they're going to be sexually abused? it really is just -- it's sickening, what some people in this country are doing right now to our health care workers, to our teachers, to school board members, all because they're wrapped up into a conspiracy that is responsible for the killing of americans. >> these are the heros in our society on the front lines. also new this morning, the "washington post" citing three sources, reports president biden invited the leaders of some of the nation's biggest banks to

the white house for a meeting later today to discuss what administration officials say would be the devastating consequences of failing to lift the debt ceiling. the heads of bank of america and jpmorgan chase are among those expected to attend. >> maybe a few republicans show up. get republicans who like to think of themselves as being responsible, who don't want to be responsible for wrecking the economy, who don't want to be responsible, actually, for sitting back. and, again, if they don't want to do what they've always done their entire political career and vote for the debt ceiling. >> ridiculous. >> at least vote to allow democrats to vote to raise the debt ceiling. because when you really -- again, mitt romney, he doesn't want america's economy to crash. he wants the democrats, i'm sure, to be able to have the freedom to vote for a rise in the debt ceiling. i'm sure there are other

responsible republicans that don't want the economy to crash. rightblindly following the leadership who is saying, listen, we're not going to vote to raise the debt ceiling, but we're also going to stop democrats from being able to raise the debt ceiling. who knows? maybe the economy will crash, and we will blame it on the democrats. wow. >> joining us, white house editor for "politico." >> wait, can i say, that's sleazy. i refuse to believe there aren't ten republicans in the united states senate that aren't that sleazy, that aren't going to block the raising of the debt ceiling, that aren't going to help with our economy so it doesn't collapse more. because if you have all 50 democrats voting to raise the debt ceiling and you have republicans not voting to raise the debt ceiling and you have republicans procedurally blocking democrats from saving the economy from this crash, then people's retirement savings

when they go up in smoke because the market crashes, it's not going to be on democrats. i know people are outthinking themselves in washington, d.c. right now. i know democrats leaders are weak and they won't stare down republicans on this point. i understand that. they're afraid to fight. i don't understand why they're afraid to fight. >> okay. >> i can comprehend that. but republicans need to step forward. if they don't step forward, they have to be held accountable. democrats have to hold republicans accountable. do you want to get rid of the filibuster to save the economy? maybe republicans are giving you a gift, right? but i do want everybody to stop for one second, and when people say the republican party is a party of nihilism, a party that doesn't stand for anything but destruction, i would say that's not true. i'd say there are three parties. let's be clear here though.

let's be clear. i'm going to say it again more slowly so you can figure it out. republicans, you're not only stopping the debt ceiling from being raised and democrats being able to raise the debt ceiling because you won't do it, even though mitch mcconnell says it has to be done. you're not only not voting but you're stopping them from voting procedurally. that's going to be on you. the economy crashing is going to be on you. and if the democrats have a backbone, they're actually going to sit there and wait until ten of you vote with them. and if the economy crashes, it's on you. >> there you do. >> yeah. it says willie is going to talk. >> let's see how the american people feel about this. >> there we go. >> "politico's" sam stein has reporting on the debt ceiling and infrastructure debate.

good morning. please don't mention the red sox. we had enough. >> what is going on? how are you doing? >> thanks a lot. not doing so great, buddy. fascinating numbers from "politico" about this question of a u.s. debt default and how republicans feel about it. >> right. >> mitch mcconnell is out of step, it seems like, with this question. >> did you see the game last night? >> all right, all right. >> wow. >> trying to move us along here. >> oh boy. >> sorry, sorry. just had to for a second. >> i know. >> the numbers are interesting. there is broad concern, obviously, that we will default, but i would say oneesting numbe unattentive to the numbers. 47% say they don't understand the conversations well, and 71% is concerned about the possibility of default.

there is a disconnect that's happening. joe is underscoring it here. as democrats want to move the needle here, they do need to probably get the public more on its side, more attentive to the debate, so that they can apply pressure to republicans to ct in some of the procedurals. the president is meeting with the bank ceos, which is a pressure campaign. what took so long? we knew this was coming. democrats could have dealt with this in prior legislative vehicles. they could have started the process a while back. only now with the october 18th deadline looming do they seem to be going into hyperdrive. you really do sit back and wonder, you know, are we staring at the sort of financial abyss here? did we wait -- did congress wait too long to resolve this, and will we actually tip over and have a default? will that be the precipitating moment when we get this resolved? don't know. >> sam, it is interesting that mitch mcconnell doesn't seem to

be using this as leverage, doesn't seem to be trying to extract anything from the white house or for democrats on this question of the debt ceiling. in the past, when it's been held up, it's been a negotiating tactic. in this case, it looks like he just wants joe biden and the democrats to fail. is there anything we're missing about his strategy here? >> it is sort of the big, unanswered question. if you read between the lines, it seems like what they want is they want democrats to use a procedural maneuver, an amended reconciliation bill. sorry if your viewers are falling asleep at this juncture. but an amended reconciliation bill that would be a time suck on the senate floor. it could take up weeks. could force a bunch of tough votes. that's what mcconnell wants. he doesn't want a policy concession. he wants to go down this very specific avenue for largely political purposes, to waste time. that's why he's blocked the other avenues, which would have,

you know, allowed the democrats to raise it without a republican vote, which was the publicly stated demand mcconnell is making. that seems to be the requirement or the demand from mcconnell's people. actually, mcconnell's people are jazzed up about this fight in a way i haven't seen from them since the supreme court confirmation battles. they live for this stuff. it's interesting. i'm not sure everyone shares their enthusiasm, but they love the procedural gamesmanship and the policy of it all. they're not really going to blink. this is premised on the idea that a, you know -- ten republicans will eventually see the light. you know, if you judge by mcconnell's rhetoric, it doesn't seem like that's the case. >> well, you know, the thing i don't understand, jonathan lemire, maybe the white house can pressure the democratic leadership to do this, when there were things going on like this in the house, and i understand the rules in the

senate are a bit different, but it's the same concept. the speaker was like, that's awesome, we'll be working every weekend. we're working seven days a week. if you want to slow things down because you don't want state department dominati nominations through, because you know it takes too long and our calendar -- it is already too late, we're just going to expand the calendar. these things that you don't want to be heard, we're going to be doing it 24 hours a day through the weekend. i will tell you, it's draining for the congressman or senator's soul when you do sessions 24 hours a day. you have the calls to vote at 2:00 in the morning and 4:00 in the morning and 7:00 in the morning. that's when members of your own party start looking at you and say, really, scarborough? really? and i'm just wondering why democrats -- again, there are

ways. if they don't like ted cruz holding up state department nominations, quit acting shocked. like, oh, my gosh, we can't get this done between tuesday and thursday at noon. go through the weekend! when are democrats, excuse me, i'm getting more and more impatient, when are they going to start acting tough and acting like this actually matters? >> joe, first, let's address your point. you mentioned senator romney as someone you thought would be opposed to this. he said yesterday. i'll read the quote. we're not voting in any way to help raise the debt ceiling. as a group we're all together. there isn't divides among republican senators, at least not yet. they're willing to see this through, even for voices you'd normally think would be rational actors. i asked the president about this during his trip to michigan. he said he would be speaking to senate minority leader mcconnell soon, to push him further. there's not hopes of mcconnell changing his position. there is talk of doing a carve out for the filibuster of the

debt ceiling, being kicked around. some democrats are enthusiasm but others like manchin said, wait a second. if that carve out happens, what's not to say there won't be more on things like voting rights and others about things we've been talking about for months. we have that state of play. we also have the infrastructure bills, the two-part pieces of the biden agenda. there was a snag last week. now progress is being made. biden conceded the top line number is coming down. progressives seem okay with it according to reporting, but they have work to do. you have polling, as well. what'd you find? >> still strong support from the infrastructure bill, about 55%, public roughly in line with what we were recording in previous polls. as you can see on the screen, it splits somewhat along party lines. 32% of republicans -- ain't too shabby if you're a democrat this day and age.

can you get beth bills done? what do they do to the $3.5 trillion bill they now have to figure out how to get down to $2 trillion or so, which is what biden targeted as a compromised figure? do you cut every program equally, take programs out to get the cost down? those are big discussion topics happening right now. joe, just to piggyback on your point, at some point, schumer is going to have to make this call. floor time is precious, right? this is why mcconnell is trying to drain it. at some point, you have to push the envelope and say, fine, you want to stay in session and deal with this? we'll do it. there's a lot of elderly senators who i think will get quickly impatient with the prospects. we really haven't seen democrats take that route yet. curious if it comes in the next couple weeks. october 18th deadline, of course, for the debt ceiling. october 31st is the new informal deadline for getting all the

infrastructure, both regular infrastructure and human infrastructure, deals done. we'll see if they start burning the midnight oil. >> well, you look at the fact that if you look, mika, at the fact that there's so many appointees that aren't getting through. they're not getting through because there are holds being placed on it. it just makes the senate -- >> yeah. >> -- take longer steps to get it. you look at the national security staff. you look at the state department staff. you look at other hold ups in the staff. just go to seven days a week. mitch mcconnell now on the debt ceiling is saying no. keep him in seven days a week. chuck schumer has to play tough. >> yeah. >> he needs to keep them in seven days a week. then people can start looking at all these cheap procedural pack -- tactics and say, maybe it's not worth it.

maybe we should actually act like a functioning legislative body. but until that time, you know, make them work seven days a week, 24 hours a day. keep them voting at 1:00, 3:00 in the morning, 5:00 in the morning. keep it going. keep the pressure on republicans until they stop trying to burn this country down with their votes, whether it's by not passing debt ceiling, and not allowing democrats to pass the debt ceiling, first of all. also by not letting us do what's pest for our country when it comes to national security and putting people in place so they can actually represent us. not just across the globe but also here at home. key national security staff. enough's enough. you know what? they're showing just how little they care about a functioning

government. it's time chuck schumer. >> they've done that. >> it's time chuck schumer starts playing tough. >> absolutely. >> "politico's" sam stein, thank you very much. >> thanks, guys. coming up, after testimony on capitol hill from a facebook whistle employeer, the naacp is demanding a meeting with the social media company to discuss hate speech on its platform. more on "morning joe." act, congress can tackle it head on. with tax credits for clean energy companies that create millions of new jobs... ...and ramp up new technology and clean energy manufacturing. it means families pay less for utilities... ...and america becomes the global leader in clean energy it's time to build back better. and that means taking on climate change. with clean energy jobs

congress: let's get this done you get more with aarp medicare advantage plans from unitedhealthcare. like $0 copays on preventive dental care. ♪ wow! ♪ ♪ uh-huh. ♪ so go ahead. take advantage now. ♪ wow! ♪ people, with quickbooks live take advantage now. someone else will do your books for you. they'll even pair you with an expert bookkeeper like me, who knows your business. knows... your... business! expert bookkeepers who understand your business. intuit quickbooks live bookkeeping. for people who could use a lift new neutrogena® rapid firming. a triple-lift serum with pure collagen. 92% saw visibly firmer skin in just 4 weeks.

neutrogena® for people with skin. as someone who resembles someone else... neutrogena® i appreciate that liberty mutual knows everyone's unique. that's why they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh, yeah. that's the spot. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ ♪darling, i, i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪girl, i don't know, i don't know,♪ ♪i don't know why i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪oh no, babe girl, if i could only make you see♪ ♪and make you understand♪ get a dozen double crunch shrimp for $1

with any steak entrée. only at applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood.

it stokes division and weakens our democracy. >> facebook whistleblower frances haugen testifying yesterday before a senate committee on her former employer's knowledge of the harmful effects of its products.

the head of the naacp is now demanding a meeting with ceo mark zuckerberg. he wants the company to take steps to mitigate the rise of white supremacist content influencing political discourse and potentially influencing the rise in voter suppression laws in minority areas. naacp president and ceo johnson joins us now, along with founding president of voto latino. an msnbc contributor. good to have you both with us this morning. >> derek, let me ask you, how much of a threat is facebook right now to black americans with the rise of white supremacy, getting, my gosh, a lot of its ability to organize on facebook? >> facebook is the superspreader of hate. we said this last year when we helped organize stop hate for profit with the anti-defamation

league and many others. we begin to see where there was a synagogue in pittsburgh or a black church in charleston or louisville, kentucky, the common denominator was facebook. at some point, we're going to have to address it. get in front of the narrative. not allow zuckerberg and the group to say they're going to do something. in fact, we should be talking about anti-trust right now. it is too big of a company to spread the harm to individuals and communities and also our democracy. >> mike barnicle? >> the idea that one company, led by mark zuckerberg, obviously, has this algorithm, the secret sauce of facebook, and in the united states of america we can't find out anyone who can tell us honestly, credibly yet, what is within the algorithm, how the algorithm works. you've just spoken about the impact it has on the country

from the pittsburgh synagogue on. it is ridiculous that in the united states senate, we can't have a committee to sit down and find out exactly the damage that facebook is doing on an hourly basis in this country. >> you know, it is unfortunate. facebook has pretty much become a sovereign nation within a sovereign nation. pretty much untouchable not only in the united states but around the globe. we're seeing the same problem over and over. it's impacting our elections. it's impacting our health care system. it is allowing for misinformation to cause harm. it is creating spaces where groups will murder a federal official in the bay area. we have to do something. we cannot allow this to be the new gun industry, where we have massacre after massacre and there are no reforms. facebook is beyond repair in its

current formation. we must, as a nation, recognize the lack of guardrails that's in place and the harm it is creating. in the african-american community, latino community, here and around the globe. >> there are many ways we could list how this facebook and related parties aid to the destruction of a democracy, the breakdown of a democracy, spread defamation, lies, hurt people. there's now new information about how it hurts teenage girls. i think kids in general, their psychological status. if you could talk to me about concerns about how this impacts voting rights. >> i can share with you, at voto latino in 2020, we identified 267 influencers to use their networks because of the disinformation that was targeted to the latino community. we recognize that it is a superspreader of bad

information. unless there is government intervention and also a deeper savvy among the american public of what is going on in facebook, it'll be a pandemic. right now, we're an epidemic. when people say, why is disinformation targeting minority groups of color? we did a program targeting those individuals that were marginalized, on the fence of whether or not to take the covid vaccine because of the bad spread of the disinformation in the latino community. how does not believing in the covid vaccine impact you in elections? if i do not trust the government is trying to do the best of their ability to make sure i am healthy, that i am safe, that they're not trying to put a technology into my system, why am i going to go out and vote in the midterm elections? this is the most obscure but also the most extreme type of voter suppression we are seeing. we started seeing a lot of flooding of the border of

immigrants. why? it was because of the disinformation that's being spread on facebook and what's app. the haitian migration that's coming in and out through haiti but coming from brazil and because of chile is a coordinated effort from foreign governments, encouraging us to have an issue at the border. we have to recognize that the root causes of this right now facebook doesn't have repercussion. we have to be weary of the information folks are consuming. there has to be some sort of seal of approval, that what you're reading is real and what you're not is fabricated. >> hey, maria, jonathan lemire. i wanted to follow up with voter rights. you mentioned social media. connected to that, there's been talk in the last 24 hours or so, momentum gathering on capitol hill for using some sort of carve out to the filibuster for the debt ceiling negotiations, so the country doesn't default. that, of course, leads to the question, if you can carve out a filibuster for that, why not also do something to carve out a filibuster for federal voting rights legislation? give us your sense, is that something you'd want to see?

what would be your reaction if it was used for one and not the other? how should this proceed? >> i love that question. shockingly. good morning there. carving out the filibuster, specifically for the freedom to vote, it is currently right now being proposed not only by klobuchar but also manchin and also senator king from maine. we recognize that everything we're talking about right now is who has access to the ballot? who has access to voting? sadly, i will tell you the majority of republicans right now are not on the side of democracy building. we are seeing states like arizona, georgia, texas, all looking to fight voter suppression, making sure there is not -- despite certifying a fair re-election last year. those are the four states that latinos registered over 350,000 people in those states and turned them out. it's not a surprise to us that now they want to make sure

they're changing the rules. making sure there is a carve out for the filibuster specifically for voting access is dependent on the health of our nation. we as a democracy want to maximize the voting booth. if you have one party that keeps trying not to say everybody should have fair access to the vote, who does not want to investigate a commission on what happened on the insurrection on january 6th, who is saying it is okay if the cards are stacked against a majority of americans, that is when we have to cry foul. we have to recognize that if we -- all americans, republican, democrat, independent, if we believe in our democracy, if we believe in the majority rule that should be making sure we are all enfranchised, we have to make sure there is a carve out so the filibuster is suspended in this scenario. >> thank you. the 13th annual power summit is happening now. the naacp president and ceo derrick johnson, thank you, as well. we really appreciate you both

coming on this morning. south carolina senator lindsey graham was shouted down by his republican constituents at a saturday event in somerville for suggesting they get vaccinated against covid. >> if you haven't had the vaccine, you ought to think about getting it. if you're -- >> boo. >> no! >> i didn't tell you to get it. i said to think about it. >> no! >> well, i'm glad i got it. 92% of the people in the hospitals in south carolina are unvaccinated. >> wow. >> well, thank you, lindsey, for trying to save the lives of your constituents. i mean -- >> who are clearly under some sort of -- >> let those who have ears to hear, hear. that's so depressing. it is so depressing that even hearing it from their own

elected officials, there are people screaming at the audience, that they don't want to get a vaccine to save their lives, to save the lives of their family members, to save the -- also, to not be selfish. not to just be selfish and driven by whether it is a personality cult or whether it is driven by a conspiracy theory. >> thank you, facebook, once again. it is a common thread throughout this show and throughout the -- >> i guarantee you, mika, majority of the people screaming were getting their disinformation about the vaccine from facebook. we hear it every day. every time we hear disinformation, we always ask, so where are you hearing that? >> where are you getting your news? >> let me talk you through that. it's always, somebody sent me something on facebook. >> graham, who was vaccinated and suffered a breakthrough infection this summer credited the vaccine with keeping symptoms mild.

>> could have been worse off. >> he agreed with the crowd that vaccination mandates were probably unconstitutional. they're not. actually, lindsey and everybody in the crowd had a vaccination mandate before they were going to go to school. so were their children. they all supported vaccine mandates like that. >> okay. >> before this got politicized by donald trump and republicans a year ago. >> okay. >> republicans had to take back congress, he said, to stop vaccine mandates. nice little having it poet ways -- both ways there with lindsey. >> i don't know why when it is clear. should have stuck to it. let's bring in professor at princeton university. and correspondent for the "new york times," peter baker joins us. >> eddie, in your home state of mississippi, they have vaccination mandates. before covid, they'd brag about the fact they didn't have

religious exemptions. they were that hard core about vaccine mandates. now, they're acting like martians are coming from another planet, invading the earth, and doing something strange and peculiar that's never been done in the history of america before. it's pure madness, isn't it? >> i think so, joe. it's another indication of what has happened to the body politic. it maps on to kind of political positions. it maps on to this attempt to draw hard line between those who want to mandate everything or take away our freedoms, those who are defenders of liberty, as it were. it's another reflection, in so many ways, joe, as you talked about over these years, of the breakdown, in some ways, the fabric of american politics, american life. it is mind boggling, particularly in a state like mississippi which is being devastated, ravaged by covid. it makes no sense actually. >> yeah. i mean, you talk -- you talk about -- lindsey said it there,

encouraged them to get the shots. mitch mcconnell has been a real champion, critical of what he is doing on the debt ceiling and other things, but mitch has been a real champion from the very beginning about getting the vaccine. saying he doesn't understand why people aren't getting the vaccines. we have coaches in the deep south, the s.e.c., trying to get their people to get vaccinated. still, eddie, we sound like a one-trick pony here, we're not. if it is the pony that's running over the fabric of this country, we have to keep saying it. lane kiffin at ole miss, powerful and popular. nick saban at alabama, popular and powerful in that state. not as powerful as the lies that are spread day in and day out by facebook. people in those states and in lindsey's state and in other states will listen to a conspiracy theory said anonymously by somebody, that

somebody said. ahead of the football coaches are the family doctor they've known for a generation. >> joe, you're making this really important point, and i think this is really important for us to wrap our minds around. it's not that folks are just mindlessly following politicians. this is ecosystem. facebook is at the heart of it. the other news network is at the heart of it. it is an ecosystem producing a way of seeing the world that, in some ways is not -- not some ways, it is undermining our democracy. we have to get at this and hit it every single day. this ecosystem. it's nested. it's complicated. some ways, it is devastating our republic. >> joe, speaking of the state of mississippi, i go back to an interview on this show a couple months ago. there was a doctor from the university of mississippi medical center who said the same

people who have been coming to us for their entire lives, we've delivered their babe byes, taken care of their children, taken care of them when they get sick, family members get sick, neighbors get sick, we are a community. for the first time, they're coming to us and saying, "we don't believe you. we don't trust you." that is the power of exactly what you guys are talking about here. this misinformation. we now live in a culture, as we just discussed in the last hour, where nurses and doctors in their scrubs are getting screamed at and harassed in grocery stores. they're taking off their ids so they're not identified as health care workers. these are the heros getting us through this pandemic, and we have a culture that's feeding information to people. they're going to grocery stores and screaming at doctors, screaming at teachers over mask mandates. it is a sad state of affairs, but it is where facebook, misinformation, and other media outlets and political leaders who fed these lies have taken us. >> yeah. it really is.

it is so distressing. don't really know, peter baker, how to break through on this. but the misinformation, we've seen it spread with covid. before that, we saw it spread with masks. before that, we saw it spread with a pandemic. we saw it spread during lies of the political campaign. >> january 6th. >> we saw it spread on january 6. we saw actually facebook being used to actually help organize the january 6th riots. the testimony that we're seeing on the hill really does seem to be like the tip of the iceberg. it's not just in the united states, where these anti-democratic forces are taking hold by organizing on facebook. we're seeing it in other countries. we're seeing it in -- across europe. we're also seeing it where human rights -- i saw a "new york times" article a few months ago. a human rights champion in

southeast asian country was actually chased out of the country because of the lies the government started spreading on facebook about him. >> yeah, i think that's right. what's interesting, joe, we've always had fringe elements of society that didn't buy into, you know, the common consensus. whether it be on science, whether it be on democracy, truth and information. today, that fringe has been empowered and emboldened and expanded by the reach of social media, right? the ability to both spread this menacing information broader and further than ever before. to be able to bring people together who might not have ever been connected, who believe in these conspiracy theories and so forth. in order to be a political force in a way they never have been before. it is rather stunning. it's a rather troubling, obviously, trend of the, you

know, advent of technology that, otherwise, has been an extraordinary benefit to society. this is the downside, the dark side of our expanding marketplace of ideas. within the marketplace are these dark holes of disinformation and untruth that has real world consequences. misinformation, of course, is combatted by real information. my paper the other day, "new york times," showed us how much these vaccinations matter. in portugal, 98% of those who are eligible to be vaccinated, 98% have been vaccinated. guess what? cases are falling. deaths are falling. restrictions are being lifted. for people who out there don't want to have these public health restrictions, who bristle at mask mandates, bristle at lockdowns and closures, vaccines are the answer. but you're right, that it's become, you know, so politicized that people don't see that. >> well, it's really important that we underline something that

peter said. when things are coming at us so quickly, sometimes we lose perspective. there have always been extremists. there have always been conspiracy theorists working in the dark shadows of the american political system. there were paperback books written in the 1960s about all the people that lyndon johnson supposedly killed. in the 1990s, you had the clinton chronicles. videotapes that were being sent out, talking about all the people bill clinton killed. you know, after 9/11, you had about a third of americans and a lot of democrats telling pollsters they believed that george w. bush knew the truth about 9/11 before it happened. so there have always been conspiracy theorists. i always sort of, when i was in politics, chalked it up to you have a third on one side, a

third on the other side that are just going to feet in cement, always expect the worst about the other side. it's the people in the middle that you have to sway. with facebook, with an international platform that can spread lies the way it spreads lies, suddenly the conspiracy theories that were once hid in the darkest corners of the internet, darkest corners of bookstores where you could buy these paperback books saying lyndon johnson was a murderer, whatever, suddenly, that's coming into people's bedrooms and living rooms and offices. >> it's being positioned as news. >> every aspect of every day. and it is positioned as news. most importantly, most importantly, facebook has algorithms that reward the chaos that was responsible for a boy assassinating a federal agent in oakland during the black lives

matter marches. like, they know exactly what they're doing. they drive people to sites that will outrage them more, that will drive them to sites that will outrage them more. every time they're clicking and staying engaged and they're being stuck in that casino, just like a casino, the whole goal is how long can you hold these people here and whip up hatred and anxiety so they madly click around to sites? it's one ad after another ad after another ad they click through. mark zuckerberg is worth $120 billion. every time they do that with algorithms, they're just spreading more hatred in america. >> making money. >> they're undermining this constitutional republic. he is destroying this -- let's be very clear here. his algorithms are destroying this conscienceconstitutional r. what does he get for it? $120 billion. that's how much mark zuckerberg

is worth. $120 billion. do you know, he was spreading around on his platform the plandemic? early on in the pandemic, it was a film that was slick and glossy, made to look like a real documentary. that lie stayed up there so long, according to the "new york times," more people saw it than saw taylor swift's new video or saw the "office" reunion or saw all of these other -- all of these other pop cultural moments. because all he wants you to do is get outraged. go to his website and get even more outraged and click around more. because every time -- the more you're angry, the more you're outraged, the more lies you are told, the more money he makes. it is a sick, sick business

model. and the senate and the house better hold him to account. i'll tell ya what, a lot of americans' health is riding on it. and the health of this constitutional republic is riding on it, as well. the senate is expected to hold a procedural vote later today on a house-passed bill to suspend the nation's debt ceiling until december 2022. but with republicans threatening to filibuster the measure, democrats are still looking for ways to raise the debt limit without gop support. >> we could prevent a catastrophic default with a simple majority vote tomorrow. if republicans would just get out of the damn way, we could get this all done. >> i implore them one more time not to play russian roulette with the american economy. >> ask mitch mcconnell, the bottom line is simple, it's on his shoulders. we have been -- we are willing to cast the 50 votes ourselves.

it's up to him. all he has to do is get out of the way. >> they said they're perfectly prepared to do the job themselves. the easiest way to do that is through the reconciliation process. >> we're going to stay here until we get this done. >> mcconnell refuses to operate. should senate democrats do this by reconciliation? what happens next? >> quite frankly, there's not many options if they're going to be that irresponsible. there are not many options. there's not much time left to do it by reconciliation. i don't think they're going to end up being that irresponsible. i can't believe it. >> those comments were made i michigan where the president was talking of his spending plan, which is still dividing democrats and republicans. peter alexander has more. >> reporter: the sales pitch for the multi-trillion dollar spending plans. >> these bills are not about

left versus right or moderate versus progressive. these bills are about competitiveness versus complacency. >> reporter: but the reality check, so far the president has been struggling to unite those competing wings of his party. though their differences appear to be narrowing. progressives have blocked the $1 trillion bipartisan infrastructure bill until they get an agreement on a much larger climate and social policy package. key moderate joe manchin, who called that plan's initial $3.5 trillion price tag fiscal insanity, is suggesting he could support a figure as high as roughly $2 trillion. mr. biden has floated. >> i'm not ruling anything out. i want to make sure we strategically do the right job. >> reporter: republicans argue the president's plans will send inflation soaring. >> everybody is paying higher praises today for everything compared to when joe biden came into office. we're not going to rubber stamp the reckless spending. >> reporter: president biden bashing his critics. >> to oppose these investments

is to be complicit in america's decline. >> joining us now, chief whip of the democratic caucus, congressman dan kildee of michigan. most americans at this point have said, call me when this is over. there's so much back and forth about this. is it going to be $3.5 trillion? is it going to be $1.5 trillion? how does this story end, and what do you think is important to keep in? because it is getting parred down as we go. >> thanks for having me on. the most important thing is that we take the chance to make big progress on the three areas. dealing with climate, suppor ing families, especially families with kids, and dealing with the high cost of health care. this is the democratic process. i mean, even though it is happening only among democrats, we're arguing out our differences. we're trying to find a path to common ground that's going to require compromise. both points of view have already acknowledged we have to compromise. it is important to step back and

think, this is what the democratic process looks like. it is not people storming the dap toll with the intent to kill. it is not denying the obvious outcome of an election. it is a debate over the issues. i think, in some ways, we just need to take a look at that and say, wow, this is really good to see. at least in one party, the democratic process is working. we've got to get to yes. i was with the president yesterday. he seems completely committed to finding that middle path. i hope that we can get there in the next couple of weeks. we don't, in the process, see republicans force a default on america's obligations. >> hey, congressman. it is jonathan lemire. i traveled with the president to his event yesterday. you had a better seat than i did. i want to talk about what you heard from him publicly but also what he's been saying privately to you lawmakers on some of the virtual meetings and his trip to the hill last week. acknowledging the price tag will come down. to do so, making sure this

becomes law. some programs are going to fall out or shrink. give us a sense, if you will, as to what could face the chopping block, if not eliminate entirely, but at least trim down. are there things that you draw a red line around that can't fall out? >> that's the tough part about all of this. the president and many of us share the same view. this may simply be a question of scale. we want to find the boldest, biggest common denominator. i don't think we want to necessary excise a lot of the specific elements, but it may be a question of the scale or approach. we can make progress on climate. we can do something about health care. we can support american families. perhaps not quite the way some would have us do if we were completely in charge with no impediment. so i do think that, for the most part, talking about the question of scale.

>> congressman, democrats in the midwest are facing struggles. they have over the past few elections. in "the new york times," jonathan martin wrote about the problems faced in upcoming elections due to steep losses in the manufacturing jobs, union jobs. that's according to a report by a veteran democratic campaign strategist that's coming out later. jonathan martin wrote about it in the "times." he says, quote, the party's worsening performance in the region's midsize communities, often overlooked places like chippewa falls and michigan, pose a threat to democrats. gains in large metropolitan areas have been offset by losses in rural areas. while the party struggles in the industrial midwest, the 82-page report explicitly links

democratic decline in the region to the de-industrialization that weakened the parties around the world. i'm sure you saw the article. i'm sure you're going to read the report for not only every midwest democratic but for democrats across the country who want the party to win nationally. it was a sobering look at a growing problem. this is -- i mean, my god, the changes from barack obama's first election when he did very well in factory towns, to 2020 where republicans just stomped democrats in those same towns. it begs the question, why are democrats losing voters who, economically, have every reason to support their health care plans and the sort of things you're trying to pass through congress right now? >> well, this is a story i'm very particular with. i did read the piece. it is an important point. i represent saginaw, flint,

michigan, other places like it. this is where i think democrats have to deliver. one piece, for example, of the build back better act is a piece that i wrote that is a part of trade adjustment assistance. it has us directly and specifically reinvesting in those left behind places. i think the reason we've struggled in communities like bay city and others is that they have to ask themselves the question. when democrats are in charge, what difference does it make in my life? that's why what the president is promoting, what we have written in the build back better act, has to get over the finish line. it's not good enough that democrats are for all the right things. then sort of embrace noble defeat and talk about all the things we would have done if we had been able to get it across the finish line. we have to deliver. so much of what we're trying to do is breathe life back.

>> congressman dan kildee, we're asking trouble with your audio. thanks so much for being with us. >> thank you. >> peter baker, it is maddening for democrats when they read articles like these. they say it is the very people who lost their jobs, the very people who lost their health care, the very people who actually would benefit the most from the affordable care act, these infrastructure plans, other things democrats are trying to pass right now. these are the very people that democrats are losing. the missing component here, when they just talk economics, and this is something that kagan wrote about last week in the "washington post," is not everything people do when they vote is based on their pocketbook. cultural wars. the divide between red state and blue state america grows bigger

and larger. whether you're talking about bay city, michigan, or whether you're talking about manchester, england, there are a lot of people that used to vote center left that are now moving to the right for cultural reasons. >> well, that's right. obviously, democrats are frustrated by this seeming disconnect between voters who are looking for help and the democrats who are offering programs they think will help. but you're right, i think that that misses the -- what's been going on these last number of years, in which the sense among at least some voters is that they have been let down by elites. they have turned away from their own party, the democrats, because, in their view, washington writ large, and they're blaming a party they had once supported, you know, has not, in fact, prevented the kind of decline they have seen in their lives. they're willing to buy into the kind of rhetoric donald trump offered, which is to say they're

all corrupt and i am the one person speaking out with the truth. i can drain the swamp. i can fix the system. obviously, he didn't accomplish a lot of that rhetoric, but he has tapped into that sense of resentment, the sense of cultural war as you put it, the idea that there is, you know, an establishment out there that has ripped them off in some fashion. he channels that grievance. i think that's what other republicans are trying to take advantage of, too, that connection that donald trump had in communities that otherwise have been blue states for so long. >> yeah. and, eddie, professor at princeton, you and i both grew up, at least part of our lives, in mississippi, in one of the reddest of red states. you now are a professor at princeton. you've seen both sides of that divide. so much of it has to do with

things other than economics. i think democrats have made the mistake for some time saying, let's just look at how people are doing economically. they ignore the cultural components. they ignore the resentment. they ignore the elite on the other side. in the gap is where politicians like donald trump go in. in great britain, boris johnson. they just sweep up thousands and thousands of votes in factory towns that used liberals. now they go for conservatives. >> joe, there is a way in which we've exploited our fears, the sense of alienation, the sense of resentment. there's a way that this connects to our discussion around facebook. there is a soil, right, that is there, that has been, in some ways, cultivated, where people's fears, traits, resentments, concerns about their future have been exploited by cynical politicians, exploited by

business interest and the like. we have yet to be able to develop a genuine sense of fellow feeling. instead, our fears guide the political process. after we come out of the tumult of the 1960s, the mid 20th century, which in some ways pushed us to be a multi-faceted democracy, what we saw over and over again was the exploitation of fears. the sense of being left behind. a feeling of alienation. the sense of resentment. now, those chickens are coming home to roost. so this has been a part of our politics since, in some way, we decided to leave behind jim crow and be genuinely, or attempt to be, a multi-racial democracy, joe. that's in my view. >> yeah. >> peter baker, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," our next guest argues that democracy is in danger and is calling on universities to step

up. plus, we're learning new details about what may have caused that devastating oil spill off the coast of california. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. vo: the damage it's causing is undeniable... climate change. and with the build back better act, congress can tackle it head on. with tax credits for clean energy companies that create millions of new jobs... ...and ramp up new technology and clean energy manufacturing. it means families pay less for utilities... ...and america becomes the global leader in clean energy it's time to build back better. and that means taking on climate change. with clean energy jobs congress: let's get this done ray loves vacations. but his diabetes never seemed to take one. everything felt like a 'no.' everything. but then ray went from no to know. with freestyle libre 14 day, now he knows his glucose levels when he needs to...

and...when he wants to. so ray...can be ray. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free. visit freestylelibre.us

this is the new world of work. no each day looks differentee. than the last. but, whatever work becomes, the world works with servicenow. shingles? camera man: yeah, 1 out of 3 people get shingles in their lifetime. well that leaves 2 out of 3 people who don't. i don't know anybody who's had it. your uncle had shingles. you mean that nasty red rash? and donna next door had it for weeks. yeah, but there's nothing you can do about it. camera man: actually, shingles can be prevented. shingles can be whaaaat? camera man: prevented. you can get vaccinated. baby, call the doctor. camera man: hey! you can also get it from your pharmacist! 50 years or older? get vaccinated for shingles now.

bogeys on your six, limu. they need customizedlder? car insurance from liberty mutual so they only pay for what they need. woooooooooooooo... we are not getting you a helicopter. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ in business, setbacks change everything. so get comcast business internet and add securityedge. it helps keep your network safe by scanning for threats every 10 minutes. and unlike some cybersecurity options, this helps protect every connected device. yours, your employees' and even your customers'. so you can stay ahead. get started with a great offer and ask how you can add comcast business securityedge. plus for a limited time, ask how to get a $500 prepaid card when you upgrade. call today.

38 past the hour. live look at the white house on a foggy, rainy, dreary day in washington. afghanistan is facing a breakdown of its economic and social systems. food process in the country jumped more than 50% since the taliban took power in august because of inflation. the afghan banking system is largely paralyzed. while the country's health system is close to collapse. the european union's foreign policy chief says if the situation continues, and with winter approaching, this risks

turning into a humanitarian catastrophe. one of the first institutions to fall when the taliban entered kabul in mid-august was the american university in afghanistan. our next guest writes about that in a recent piece for the "washington post." the president of johns hopkins university, ron daniels, writes, quote, the taliban's fury at the university is unsurprising. it was a place where young people were not only educated for lives of service and professional fulfillment, but also inculcated with the core values of both higher education and democracy, expressive freedom, critical thinking, tolerance for the experiences and ideas of others and open debate. time and again, history shows that autocratic regimes cannot abide independent universities.

independent universities unnerve authoritarians. everything these institutions strive to achieve is to the demotion and arbitrary exercise of coercive public power. the fates of democracy and universities are intertwined. universities cannot truly thrive under the threat of authoritarian censorship or attack. >> and the president of johns hopkins university, ron daniels, joins us now. author of the book, "what universities owe democracy." thanks so much for being with us, ron. i want to talk about your piece in the "atlantic" regarding teaching civics, something that it used to be people on the right like me talked about all the time. now you're hearing a chorus from both sides. they want their children to learn about american government. they don't want the ideology

from the left. they don't want the ideology from the right. they want a balanced approach because they see their children growing up without just the basic understanding of what this country's government is all about. >> you know, it is remarkable. in this country, only 25% of students graduating from high school actually receive a good grounding in civics. and so this is something that is really important, i think, for the survival and the flourishing of democracy. it's for citizens to understand why it is important, what its core values are, how you develop the habit of good democracy, and the history of this country, both good and bad, so you can be effective citizens. to the extent our high schools are not doing the job, it seems to me particularly at this moment of democratic peril. it falls to the universities to

step up and revive a requirement which has been part of the curriculums in the past, we should teach sources in democracy and civics to every student enrolled in our institutions. >> ron, you say one of the great challenges, obviously, has to do with idealogical dust-ups that come along. seems to me some basic dialectical thinking as you go into these courses is a good way to frame it. yes, many of our founders were slave holders. our founders also created a system of government that has fed and freed more people than any other country on the face of this earth. so we know those two truths. now let's talk about our history. not a one-sided idealogical view. not just based on all the bad or all the good, but a nice, balanced approach. >> it's possible. indeed, there are several groups that i have met with over the

last several months when i was preparing for the release of the book who are working on precisely that exercise. groups where there are both democrats and republicans, historians, philosophers, elementary and high schoolteachers who are developing road maps, curricula, that focus on what we agree on, what we regard as core tenants, and also leaving room for the debates to happen as to how we interpret those tenants in contemporary circumstances. it is possible. it's been done in the past, and it is essential, particularly at this moment when there is so much at play in our contemporary democracy. >> all right. ron, i want to just back up a little bit. i know your campus well. my daughter is a graduate of the great johns hopkins university. i want to ask what inspired for you to take on this project, to write this book, and does it apply to what you've seen on

your campus? >> so there's several things. first and foremost, it starts with my sense that this really is a seminole moment in democracy, not just in this country but, indeed, internationally. we see country by country outside of the united states going from democracy to authoritarianism. we see things like was discussed around january 6th. we understand polarization, extremism, misrepresentation of fact and so forth. all of these things are perilling our democracy. it is in this context that one has to think about the core institutions of democracy and the role they can play in fortifying democracy in this moment. typically, we think about courts. we think about the media as guardians of our democracy, elected representatives in government. but the truth is, the university is also, to my mind, an absolutely critical site for how we bolster and make democracy

stronger. we do that in a number of different ways, starting first and foremost with a growing and incredible diversity of race, religion, geography, and socio-economic status that is represented in our student bodies. and this extraordinary opportunity we have in the united states, where if there is a trend to enclaves, we bring people together across these great differences and, again, can hopefully cultivate habits, understandings, interactions that make our democracy stronger. >> president daniels, i enjoyed the book. let me ask you this question. i mean, the universities and colleges have, in some ways, been at the center of the culture wars. these are the places that some people believe that the left have overrun, right, these spaces, academic freedom or freedom of speech has become a question. what does it mean to suggest that this place, which is incredibly a vexed, contested

space, can be central to democracy as you're talking about? >> good point. there is no question we're often in the sights of the warriors on the left and the right, ask -- and there is an effort to discredit the universities. a characterization of the cancel culture, so forth, used to describe universities is exaggerated. having said that, there is a dogmatism we're seeing, both on left and right in our institutions, and it seems to me, again, going back to the extraordinary opportunity that we have of bringing folks from across the country together, that if we can really educate students on how to engage across difference, on understanding the importance of debate, creating a sense of civic friendship. you don't have to agree but you agree to try to work on something collaborative to make the country or the university better. i think these are habits that are essential at this moment in

time. again, in a setting where more than 70% of students graduating high school will go into post secondary education, we're in an important place to change the debate, to change the trajectory of these trends. >> i think then everyone should read chapter four because you go into this deeply in depth. then, of course, you talk about the question of social mobility and admissions policies with regards to universities and civic education and, of course, universities in colleges is critical for critical thinking, accepting facts, the like. but i want to drill in on this question. i gave an overview of the chapters of the book in some ways. >> thank you for doing that. >> sure. what happens when folk take our values, the values that make universities and colleges possible, that everyone should be courted dignity and equal standing, take those values and use them as a way of undermining the very things that we stand for? so i can actually question people's standing, their capacities, right?

not extend them equal standing and dignity. and claim free speech as the basis of the academic freedom as the basis for making the claim. what do we do when people use our values to undermine our values? >> so this is where it starts, i think, first and foremost with clearly educating and instilling a sense of what those core values are. and it starts with an understanding of the basic humanity, dignity, equal worth of every person who is in our community. from there, although one can imagine lots of debates over contemporary, contested issues, whether we're talking about the role of religion in public life, the role of reproductive rights, how we think about immigration, all of these are issues that people can debate upon. you can imagine that people can feel very passionate. but it should -- these debates should happen in a way that never go to questioning the core

worth, the value of the person you're dealing with. too much of our debate today is add homonym with character. we're not engaging ideas, we're attacking others. we're looking to their moral worth. whether they have standing or not. it seems to me these are bad habits that we can upend in the university. >> well said. >> the new book is "what universities owe democracy." president of johns hopkins university, ron daniels, thank you very much. it's great to see you. >> thank you so much for the opportunity. now to the story of fannie lou hamer, the activist whose fight for equality earned her a place at the 1964 democratic convention and a place in history. today would have been fannie lou hamer's 104th birthday. an award-winning historian and writer, keisha blaine, is out with the new book entitled "until i am free."

fannie lou hamer's enduring message to america, which highlights hamer's journey from the political strategies she and other activists used to achieve the voting rights many see as being eroded today. and keisha today. keish ajoins us now, associate professor of history at the university of pittsburgh. great to have you back on the show. tell us about this activist. what drove her political activism, tell us about her early life, and what made her the activist that she became. >> thank you so much for having me. fannie lou hamer was born in mississippi, and today is her birthday. she grew up in a share cropping family, and i think this is important to understand really the evolution of her ideas and how much experiences of poverty and hunger shape her life. it propelled her to make a

difference, it propelled her to go out into the world and come up with strategies to improve the lives of other people, not only in the state of mississippi, but across the united states, and so fannie lou hamer is truly a civil rights icon. i don't think we talk about her nearly enough, but i'm thrilled to be able to write this book that gets us to think deeply about her ideas and really to imagine now we can learn from hamer as we continue to grapple with many of the concerns that troubled her during her lifetime. >> professor, i'm so happy. congratulations on this wonderful book. >> thanks. >> you know, i'm a native mississippian and ms. hamer is one of my heroes. let me ask this question directly. how does her life model a different conception of leadership for us? when we think about her ascend ents, in relation to the

traditional figures of dr. king and the traditional civil rights organizations, what does her presence as a leading voice of the civil rights movement suggest about how we might think about leadership moving forward? >> so many things to emphasize. i think first and foremost, i always tell people that fannie lou hamer came to the civil rights movement so much later in life than others. we often talk about activism of others like john lewis and certainly martin luther king jr. they were fairly young, but fannie joined the movement at the age of 44. she grew up in a share cropping family. she had a sixth grade education. this is someone who said that it was not until august of 1962 that she learned she had a right to vote as a citizen of the united states. when we think about her socioeconomic background and the limited formal education she had, as well as limited material

resources, one could say there were so many things going against her, and oftentimes when we look at history, we focus oftentimes on the leadership of members -- members of the middle class or elite. fannie mae hamer was she different. she did not fit into that mold, but she was so impactful. >> it's jonathan lemire. congrats on this. i was hoping you could make connections to what we're seeing in the present day. last year, of course, we had a sweeping national reckoning about justice in the wake of a series of high profile deaths of black men at the hands of white police officers. we obviously have now real debate about voting rights, democrats really trying to move through federal legislation that has been stalled as republican-controlled statehouses in many ways are restricting access to the parking lot. draw parallels you see from that time to this. what lesson should we take into

the current moment? >> well, as you point out, certainly voter suppression remains a challenge and this is so disheartening because i think as people read hamer's story and see how much she endured just to be able to cast a ballot, you know, she faced violence, a number of legal and extra-legal attempts to block her from the ballot box. as i point out in the book, in the early 1960s, only 5% of the black population in mississippi were registered to vote. only 5%. and we can understand the implications of that. today, of course, we've made significant progress since the voting rights act but we've seen so many efforts to really undermine the voting rights act, so i hope that when people read the book they are inspired and emboldened, really to continue the fight. because it's not over. we have to continue to push to make sure that people have

access to the democratic process and that they are not being blocked simply because of their socioeconomic status for race and ethnicity. >> this is wonderful. the book is "until i am free", fannie allow hamer's enduring message to america. keisha, once again, it's great to see you. thank you so much for coming on the show today. still ahead, a facebook whistleblower gives congress rare insight into the inner workings of the social media company. we'll go over the big take-aways from yesterday's senate hearing, and what changes could be on the way following that testimony. plus, when insurrectionists stormed the capitol on january 6th, some of them chanted "hang mike pence" and they had a noose with them. so why, then, is the former vice president downplaying what happened that day? you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

as someone who resembles someone else... i appreciate that liberty mutual knows everyone's unique. that's why they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh, yeah. that's the spot. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪

at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future

for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. ♪ feel stuck with credit card debt? ♪ move your high-interest debt to a sofi personal loan. earn $10 just for viewing your rate — and get your money right. ♪ what the world needs now... is people. people who see things... just a little bit differently. who go out of their way to find a new perspective and a new way forward. because seeing a smarter, healthier, cleaner world isn't something that's far in the future. it's something we're building... now. ge. building a world that works.

finally yasso! a ridiculously creamy, crunchy, chocolatey dipped ice cream experience with 25% less calories because it's made with greek yogurt. so, thanks for everything ice cream, but we'll take it from here. yasso audaciously delicious

it's october 2020 and the president is back on the buggy. >> i just left walter reed medical center. now i'm maybe and maybe i'm immune. >> you know what they say, what doesn't cure you makes you wronger. >> i learned so much about coronavirus, and one thing that's for certain, don't be afraid of it. >> don't be afraid of it, the same thing he told stormy when she locked herself in the bathroom. >> science and medicine will e eradicate the virus after all. >> perhaps you recognize me. it's your favorite president. if you're in the hospital and you're feeling really bad, i heard about this drug called regeneron. i wasn't feeling so hot. they gave me regeneron and it

was unbelievable. i feel great. i feel, like, perfect. regeneron, i call that a cure. >> warning, not a cure. >> on to the vp debate to address the nation's problems head-on. >> climate change. >> health care. >> abortion. >> gun control. >> systemic racism. >> a fly lands on mike pence's head. >> that fly nested in his hair. >> did he know the fly was on his head? >> the fly on mike pence's head. [ speaking foreign language ] >> help me, mother. mother! >> this has been this week in covid history. >> that last thing didn't happen, did it? most of it did. >> welcome back to "morning joe." speaking of mike pence, the

former vice president is once again downplaying the january 6th attack on the capitol. >> you mean the attack where they were going "hang mike pence" and threatened his family's life? >> and his family, and the lives of others on capitol hill. here's what he said in an interview on fox news monday night. >> i know the media wants to distract from the biden administration's failed agenda by focusing on one day in january. they want to use that one day to try and demean the character and intentions of 74 million americans who believed we could be strong again and prosperous again and supported our administration in 2016 and 2020. but for our part, i truly believe we all ought to remain completely focused on the future. >> wow. well, i believe we should be optimistic of the future so long as people like mike pence are kept out of office forever if they really want to downplay what he calls one day in

january. mike barnicle, that's like calling 9/11 one day in september. this was one of the low points in american political history, certainly since the civil war. one day in january where trump supporters took american flags and bashed cops' brains. one day in january where trump/pence supporters smeared excrement on the walls of the united states congress. one day in january where donald trump, mike pence's partner, was actually calling people to come up to the capitol and to stop the count. rudy giuliani talking about that same day to this crowd of rioters and mobsters, saying you

need to engage in combat justice, one of trump's children saying we're coming for you before they came for them and bashed law enforcement officers' heads in, used american flags to bash american officers' heads in time and time again. this right here where they went around chanting "hang mike pence, hang mike pence", where his wife and children were endangered -- let me say that again, mike pence's wife and children were in danger. they were scared and afraid that mike pence might get caught and get hung because they had the noose, the chance, and we were looking for him. that's what mike pence now is trying to blame on the american media. instead of blaming it on donald trump and the guy that he now, once again, is bowing and scraping to receive his

approval, mike. >> you know, joe, the odd thing about this story and the clip that we just played of the former vice president speaking, is he is irrelevant. he has become irrelevant. but what he was talking about, strangely enough and threateningly enough, has become the most potent threat to the way we govern ourselves, what happened on january 6th. because those assembled there in the capitol of the united states of america were part of an attempted coup, and further proof of that coup has been played out across all the months since january 6th, including the preposterous legal memo by the lawyer john eastman, outlining exactly how they could overturn the legitimate legal election of an incoming president of the united states. that is with us today much more so than it was on january 7th, because out there in this country of ours, there are

millions of people, unfortunately, who have been fed this lie, who believe this lie, and now this lie is of such proportion that in state after state, we've seen it play out not just in arizona, in state after state it threatens the very fundamentals of how we govern ourselves, of how we elect our leaders, and how we propose to go forward as a nation. >> disgraceful comments there from vice president mike pence. we're going to come back to that in a moment. we want to turn to facebook and a day after a global outage for the company, a whistleblower testified on capitol hill, describing to a senate committee just how dangerous she believes facebook really is. nbc news senior washington correspondent hallie jackson reports. >> reporter: facebook under fire. >> the company's leadership knows how to make facebook and instagram safer, but won't make the necessary changes because they have put their astronomical profits before people.

>> reporter: whistleblower frances haugen insisting congress must act against a company she says is misleading the public, promoting hateful and harmful content, holding its ceo to account. >> in the end, the buck stops with mark. >> reporter: she left in may armed with tens of thousands of internal documents, including some showing the company knows its instagram app can lead to eating disorders in young girls. >> it's just like cigarettes. teenagers don't have good self-regulation. she say explicitly i feel bad when i use instagram and yet i can't stop. we need to protect the kids. >> reporter: to do that, haugen says, facebook must share more about its algorithms, which determine what content pops up on your feed, incentivized, she says, toward problematic posts. >> this inability to see into facebook's systems and confirm they work as communicated is like the department of transportation regulating cars, only watching them drive down the highway. >> reporter: from facebook an

aggressive defense. >> what you have here today is a former employee who didn't work on these issues and was just at the company a couple of years, mischaracterizing some documents she stole. >> it seems to me an attempt by facebook to undermine her credibility. is your strategy to go after the messenger and not the message? >> our strategy is to make sure we're giving people accurate information about what we're doing. facebook actually has been calling for regulation for more than two and a half years now. >> reporter: on regulating big tech, bipartisan agreement. congress calling yet again for changes. those could include internal research released to outside parties, stronger federal oversight that demands transparency, or a requirement platforms share their proprietary algorithms with regulators. >> if facebook is serious and honest, there will be legislation for them to support on privacy, on oversight, on protecting children.

we'll see whether they're serious. i hope they are. because big tech is facing its big tobacco moment. it is a moment of reckoning. >> hallie jackson recording. facebook ceo mark zuckerberg shared an internal memo to staff on tuesday where he wrote, quote, we care deeply about issues like safety, well-being and mental health. it is difficult to see coverage that misrepresents our work and motives at the most basic level. i think most of us just don't recognize the false picture of the company that is being painted. that's from mark zuckerberg. >> wow. >> she covers technology and regulation for the paper, coauthor of the book as well titled "an ugly truth, inside facebook's battle for domination". you dove deep into the in workers and mark zuckerberg says he doesn't recognize the picture being painted of his company. do you based on what you've done in reporting and based on what you heard from frances haugen

yesterday? >> yes, listening to frances haugen we feel she confirmed so much in our book, how this company has prioritized growth and has chosen to be in the business of acknowledge tagds and that all of the technology tools in the business is geared toward getting people to come back more and more and the consequences of those decisions are that you have things like a girl, teenage girl on instagram who may feel insecure about her body and want to lose weight, suddenly get pushed to different groups and content that promotes eating disorders. the consequence is hate groups being able to spread and organize for january 6th. it is the consequence of misinformation spreading rapidly because engagement is core, misinformation on vaccines and the election. that was really what we showed in our book, as well as what ms. haugen said, which is that the core of the problem is the systems, it is a beating heart problem where the systems, the

algorithms promote the most engaging and agitating content which can be harmful content. >> cecelia, it's pretty incredible. we just showed mike pence talking about the january 6th riots, the riots against the united states of america where they were trying to hang him. his only defense was it's the media's fault. mark zuckerberg, in responding to facebook's own internal documents and the reporting of it, what does he do? he doesn't talk about their internal documents. he blames the media. is that really all that's left for mark zuckerberg to do, as he makes $120 billion off of poor teenage girls and the savaging of america's democracy? >> yeah, it was pretty extraordinary in the post that he made last night on his facebook page, where the company remains, he's dug in his heels. the company remains defiant and defensive and they say that the

company is being unfairly criticized and that the research that frances haugen, the tens of thousands of pages is taken out of context and that everybody is getting it wrong. it's almost like two parallel worlds that are -- or views of the world, that of facebook and that of the rest of the world. however, what frances haugen did was give an unvarnished insider's account and that was what was new yesterday in her testimony. she was able to say with a lot of authority and very substantively how she has viewed how the company operates, as well as backing her views with tens of thousands of pages of documents. >> cecelia, it's jonathan lemire. i want to talk to you about what might happen next. what sort of measures or remedies might congress take in the wake of these hearings? one thing that's been considered, which seems like a dramatic step, is congress asking to have access to the algorithm that facebook uses

when they promote things in feeds, which is basically their secret sauce, their secret ingredient, and i would have to think they would fight tooth and nail before letting that go. what could happen here? >> there's a new discussion right now in washington, very much prompted by frances haugen, the whistleblower's testimony, where the focus has shifted from things like speech regulation and privacy regulation to regulation of the algorithms, the core technology that runs facebook. and what is being discussed is whether facebook should be compelled or forced to allow researchers in particular to see how those algorithms work and to see how misinformation and harmful content spreads. i definitely think facebook will push back. this is their secret sauce. but this is not about the public being able to see and dissect and competitors how the company chooses algorithms that are proprietary and competitive to them. this is about researchers being able to see how these companies

function, like facebook, and they're able to spread harmful content. so i do think it's a level of conversation that's substantive and gets much more to the heart of the problems that facebook poses, so that felt very new to me and encouraging, frankly. >> the book is "an ugly truth, inside facebook's battle for domination". cecelia, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. coming up, we'll run through some of the other stories making headlines this morning, including important new numbers surrounding the covid vaccine. we'll show you those straight ahead. and just a note, joe sits down with bill mahr for the latest episode of the podcast and the host explains why he's so concerned about the future of the democratic party. you can check out that amazing conversation right now on spotify, apple music, or wherever you get your podcasts. >> by the way, he also talks

about he's got republicans coming to his show for the first time in his career. >> yeah. >> it's a really fascinating talk. >> we'll be right back. as a dj, i know all about customization. that's why i love liberty mutual. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? you got it. ♪ liberty, liberty - liberty, liberty ♪ uh, i'll settle for something i can dance to. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner.

[swords clashing]

- had enough? - no... arthritis. here. new aspercreme arthritis. full prescription-strength? reduces inflammation? thank the gods. don't thank them too soon. kick pain in the aspercreme.

baaam. internet that doesn't miss a beat. that's cute, but my internet streams to my ride. adorable, but does yours block malware? nope. -it crushes it. pshh, mine's so fast, no one can catch me. big whoop! mine gives me a 4k streaming box. -for free!

that's because you all have the same internet. xfinity xfi. so powerful, it keeps one-upping itself. can your internet do that? new federal reports show the covid-19 vaccines saved thousands of lives among older or disabled americans, even within its first few months of rollout. according to analysis from the department of health and human services, from january through may vaccinations prevented about 265,000 cases, 107,000 hospitalizations and 39,000 deaths among medicare recipients. the report also found that for each increase of 10 percentage points in a county's vaccination rate t number of covid

hospitalizations and deaths among medicare recipients fell to 12%. they issued a warning that extremist, including domestic terrorists, are likely plotting attacks on the health care sector. the document obtained by abc news notes anti-vaccine messaging will likely increase as vaccine mandates increase. the notice also warns some of the misinformation and disinformation now circulating is being pushed and promoted by russia, china and iran to increase anger and chaos across the country. nbc news has not seen a copy of the document. and hospitals across the country are already reporting a sharp rise in the number of attacks against health care workers. nbc news correspondent cal perry has more. >> we've seen a tripling of cases of verbal and physical assault on our health care

workers. >> reporter: chief of emergency at northeastern georgia medical says the stress from covid is bubbling over. he attributes multiple factors to the rise, overworked staff, strained resources to care for patients, covid rules over masks and limitation limits. >> you've got to tell the family members, you need to wait outside. and that's really hard for the families and that makes them upset. >> reporter: the phenomenon nationwide. in missouri, cox medical center giving patients panic buttons, reporting patients spitting and beating workers. assaults jumped from 40 to 123 between 2019 and 2020. >> we have the chance to press our button and then security knows exactly where we are and if we end up having to chase a patient down, they know where our last location is. >> reporter: it comes as hospitals struggle to keep medical workers on the job with many facing severe nursing shortages. >> they're exhausted. there's fewer and fewer people that feel that they can bear the risk to come to work, the risk

of being exposed to covid, the risk of verbal, physical, sexual assault. those are real risks to a lot of folks. >> reporter: hospital groups and unions now asking states to step in, calling for increased penalties for those who assault medical staff. >> so many things in our society, laws do have to change to ultimately change behaviors over time. >> reporter: the nightmare for many health care workers extends beyond the walls of the hospital they work in. folks who work in the hospital behind me telling us as some are taking their badges off before they go shopping in the evening, they don't want folks to know what it is they do for a living. >> my god. >> first of all, they're going into the hospitals knowing that they're going to be walking in and treating mainly people that didn't get vaccinated, people that put themselves in that position, for the most part, overwhelmingly, 90% or so didn't get the vaccination. so they're going to go in and try to help people who decided not to help themselves.

i think that's -- that's very charitable. >> and threaten the lives of others. >> they've made that decision because they got into the business of helping the sick. and so they go in there and now, mika, they have to take off their badges when they move around even inside the hospital because they're afraid they're going to be attacked, they're going to be abused, they're going to be sexually abused. it really is just -- it's sickening what some people in this country are doing right now to our health care workers, to our teachers, to school board members, all because they're wrapped up into a conspiracy that is responsible for the killing of americans. >> these are the heroes in our society, on the front lines. coming up, how the white house is prepping for the possibility of the u.s. government defaulting on its debt. those details are next on "morning joe."

>> tech: when you get a chip in your windshield... trust safelite. this couple was headed to the farmers market... when they got a chip. they drove to safelite for a same-day repair. and with their insurance, it was no cost to them. >> woman: really? >> tech: that's service the way you need it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner.

helen knew exercise could help her diabetes... but she didn't know what was right for her. no. nope. no way. but then helen went from no to know with freestyle libre 14 day, now she knows what activity helps lower her glucose. and can see what works best for her. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and lower your a1c. now you know. freestyle libre 14 day. now covered by medicare for those who qualify.

♪ ♪ your new pharmacy is here. and here. and here, too. it's here to help you save time and money and trips to the pharmacy. it's here to get you the medication you need when you need it. who knew it could be this easy? your new pharmacy is amazon pharmacy.

every single day, we're all getting a little bit better. we're better cooks... better neighbors... hi. i've got this until you get back. better parents... and better friends. no! no! that's why comcast works around the clock constantly improving america's largest gig-speed broadband network. and just doubled the capacity here. how do things look on your end? -perfect! because we're building a better network every single day. new this morning, the "washington post" citing three

sources reporting president biden has invited the leaders of some of the nation's biggest banks to the white house for a meeting later today to discuss what administration officials say would be the devastating consequences of failing to lift the debt ceiling. the heads of bank of america and j.p. morgan chase are among those expected to attend. >> let's hope a few republicans show up, maybe get some republicans who like to think of themselves as being responsible, who don't want to be responsible for wrecking the economy, who don't want to be responsible, actually, for sitting back. again, if they don't want to do what they've always done their entire political career and vote for the debt ceiling, at least vote to allow democrats to vote to raise the debt ceiling. because when you really -- again, mitt romney, he doesn't want america's economy to crash. he wants the democrats, i'm sure, to be able to have the

freedom to vote for a rise in the debt ceiling. i'm sure there are other responsible -- i'm sure there are other responsible republicans that don't want the economy to crash. right now they're blindly following their leadership, who is saying, listen, not only are we not going to do what we've always done, which is vote to raise the debt ceiling, we're going to vote to stop democrats from being able to raise the debt ceiling. who knows, maybe the economy will crash and we can blame it on the democrats. >> joining us now, white house editor for politico -- >> can i just say that's really sleazy? and i refuse to believe there aren't ten republicans in the united states senate that aren't that sleazy, that aren't going to block the raising of the debt ceiling, that aren't going to help with our economy so it doesn't collapse. if you have all 50 democrats voting to raise the debt ceiling and you have republicans not

voting to raise the debt ceiling and you have republicans procedurally blocking democrats from saving the economy from this crash, then people's retirement savings when they go up in smoke because the market crashes, it's not going to be on democrats. people are thinking to themselves in washington, d.c. right now, i know that democratic leaders are weak and they won't stare down republicans on this point. i understand that. they're afraid to fight. i don't understand why they're afraid to fight. i'm just saying i can comprehend that. republicans need to step forward. if they don't step forward, they have to be held accountable. democrats have to hold republicans accountable. do you want to get rid of the filibuster to save the economy? maybe republicans are giving you a gift, right? but i do want everybody to stop for one second and when people say the republican party is a party that doesn't stand for anything but destruction, i

would say that's not true. i would say there are three parties. let's be clear here, though. let's be clear. i'm going to say it again more slowly so you guys can figure it out. republicans, you are not only stopping the debt ceiling from being raised and democrats being able to raise the debt ceiling because you won't do it even though mitch mcconnell says it has to be done, you're not only not voting with them to do that, you're stopping them from voting procedurally. that's going to be on you. the economy crashing is going to be on you. and if the democrats have a backbone, they're actually going to sit there and wait until ten of you vote with them. and if the economy crashes, it's on you. coming up, tracking the immigration crisis. we'll go live to columbia where thousands of migrants are making the dangerous trek to the u.s.

southern border. nbc's gabe gutierrez is there and joins us straight ahead. plus, the latest on that oil spill off the coast of california. why it took hours for the company to shut down its leaking pipeline. "morning joe" is coming right back. johnny: '76 steelers. ray: '78 team was better. ray: we argue like it's our job, but medicare advantage? that we agree on. johnny: 98% of the folks who use it give it... johnny/ray: ...high ratings. ray: cause it's got record low premiums...johnny: they check in with me at home, gave you a ride to the doctor. ray: then covid showed up.

johnny: but medicare advantage showed up too ray: with that telehealth thing... johnny: food delivery... ray: i bet you like that. it's times like these that show who you can count on. johnny: if you're waiting for me to say i count on you... announcer: medicare advantage. twenty six million seniors count on it. shingles? oh... you mean bill. he's been a real pain. again with the bill... what? it looks like a face. ...hearing about it 24/7 is painful enough... i don't want to catch it. well, you can't catch shingles, but the virus that causes it may already be inside you. does that mean bill might have company? - stop. you know shingles can be prevented. shingles can be whaaaaat? yeah prevented. you can get vaccinated. oh, so... i guess it's just you, me and bill then. i'm making my appointment. bill's all yours... 50 years or older? get vaccinated for shingles today. (burke) i've seen this movie before. (woman) you have? (burke) sure, this is the part where all is lost and the hero searches for hope. then, a mysterious figure reminds her that she has the farmers home policy perk, guaranteed replacement cost. and that her home will be rebuilt, regardless

of her limits or if the cost of materials has gone up. (woman) that's really something. (burke) get a whole lot of something with farmers policy perks. wait, i didn't ruin the ending, did i? (woman) yeah, y-you did. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ this flag isn't backwards it's facing this way because it's moving forward just like the men and women who wear it on their uniforms and the country it represents. they're all only meant to move one direction which is why we fly it this way on the flanks of the all-new grand wagoneer. moving boldly and unstoppably forward.

welcome back to "morning joe." a live picture of time square at 8:36 in the morning. this morning we're learning new details about what may have caused a devastating oil spill off the coast of southern california. joining us now from huntington beach, nbc news national correspondent miguel almaguer. miguel, good morning. what can you tell us? >> reporter: well, willie, good morning. we still don't have a definitive cause for what caused this oil leak but we do know officials think a major cargo ship, perhaps its anchor may vice president punctured the line. this comes as we're learning more details about what happened after the spill and what some

say could be a serious mistake. this morning a 40-mile stretch of the pacific ocean under threat, amid new details about the early response of the devastating oil spill. >> what we are doing right now is treating this as a maximum worst case discharge. >> reporter: according to federal documents, beta offshore received a low pressure alarm on its massive underwater pipeline at 2:30 a.m. saturday, but investigators say it took more than three hours for the company to shut the leaking pipeline down. and it was more than six hours after the initial alarm before the company reported the incident to the national response center. the failure happening five miles off the coast at a depth of 98 feet. the coast guard later finding marine life covered in oil and dead fish. >> this is a significant incident. >> reporter: five days after the spill, a massive cleanup is still under way, and now potential evidence of an anchor

strike as the cause of the leak. divers discovering a 4,000 foot section of the nearly 18-mile pipeline displaced by over 100 feet, a 13 inch split cracking open the pipe, spewing oil. >> the pipeline has essentially been pulled like a bow string. >> reporter: this as some question whether the leak could have been stopped sooner. the first report of an unknown sheen on the ocean's surface spotted as early as friday evening, hours before alarms even sounded. the coast guard coming under fire. >> oil in the water can be really difficult to detect at night, so in the morning we launched our teams at first light. >> cleanup crews have been making progress on shore, but the long-term damage is going to be in the water and some of the oil slicks below, we've seen whales and dolphins traveling right through them. >> what happens to the birds that are exposed, the mammals

and the fish in some of these environments? >> reporter: this morning, no time to lose in the race to save the coastline from the grips of a fast-moving oil spill. and today nbc news has learned back in 1982 a similar cargo ship actually dropped its anchor on this exact same stretch of pipeline, but it did not cause a rupture. but that has raised concerns there could be potential serious danger in the water just offshore. willie. >> terrible pictures out there. nbc's miguel almaguer from huntington beach, california, thank you so much. mika? also in california if you look off the coast of los angeles, you can see massive container ships just floating in place, unable to unload their cargo. it is a logjam seen at most of the nation's largest ports, leading to soaring prices amid a shortage of many everyday items.

nbc news correspondent tom costello reports from the port of los angeles. >> reporter: the reason you're paying more for everyday items and perhaps struggling to find some in the store, a vital parking lot in the pacific. container ships, mostly from asia, stretching across the horizon. to get an up-close view we rode along with l.a. port police marine 12. it didn't take long. the radar suddenly filled with ships. >> that's it right here? they're right outside the outer harbor? 76 ships waiting for up to ten days each to enter the port of los angeles or nearby long beach. everywhere you look, there's a ship just sitting out here in the water. and 500,000 containers. but this is just one component of the stretched global supply chain that runs from asia manufacturers across the pacific to american consumers, now backed up and bottlenecked.

this gentleman runs the port of los angeles, america's biggest. >> how many ships a day? >> in the last month and a half we're averaging 18 ships a day. >> reporter: that's nearly double the number that arrived daily before the pandemic. making matters worse, there aren't enough truck drivers to take them from the docks to the stores. >> they cannot ingest this cargo into their domestic supply chains. 50% of all truckers licensed to do business at the ports no longer come here. >> reporter: hired away by internet and big chain retailers. it's not just california. new york's ports are also backed up and leading to a shortage of everything, from electronics to toys to cars and car parts, building materials, clothing, and sending prices higher. >> reporter: a lot of those holiday gifts may be stuck sitting on the water. the question is whether they're going to be off-loaded out of those massive containers, onto

the trucks and rail lines to the store in time for your holidays. >> so the books not showing up in time or showing up one at a time would affect us greatly. >> reporter: she owns gift shops in studio city, now hoping her orders arrive in time for the holidays. >> what we were being quoted was four to six weeks turnaround time, but some of the orders that i have placed earlier in the year i still have yet to see. >> reporter: her own supply chain now backed up into the pacific. >> tom costello reporting for us there. there is a humanitarian crisis unfolding in south america where tens of thousands of migrants are gathering in columbia, hoping to make their way to the united states. nbc news correspondent gabe gutierrez joins us from columbia near the border with panama where one beach town has become a human bottleneck. what does it look like there? >> reporter: willie, good morning. this is the latest choke point in the immigration crisis. as you can see behind me this

morning, many migrants are here trying to board a ferry into neighboring panama. they're desperate to get there. if you're wondering how many haitian migrants ended up at the texas border last month, this is why, and more are on the way. this morning it is no longer a tourist town, some 20,000 migrants are now camped out here, desperate to leave. among them haitians, cubans. this man says he left haiti after the earthquake and won't stop now. each day they crowd together in line, passports in hand, children held tight. >> reporter: this is when a few migrants are let onto the boat. many have been waiting for weeks. panama is only taking 500 migrants a day and more than 1,000 are arriving in this columbian town each day, leading

to a huge bottleneck. from here they go to the panama border and cross a 60-mile roadless, lawless stretch of jungle run by human smugglers. this is video taken by a migrant days ago, the dangerous journey. after the dramatic surge of migrants into del rio last month, 13,000 were released into the u.s. to wait for asylum cases. they're still coming because of worsening economic conditions in south america where some had settled and they believe they might now be allowed to stay in the u.s. he hopes to make it there with his wife and 6 month old son. he left haiti years ago and settled in brazil. now he and so many others believe this is the time to risk everything for a shot at the american dream. >> reporter: what's really striking is all the children in

this crowd. they endured yet another torrential downpour overnight and some of the countries in the central and south america, including chile and columbia, have begun cracking down on human smuggling, but it's an uphill battle. back to you. >> think of the desperation it takes to attempt that journey. nbc's gabe gutierrez in columbia, thank you so much. mika? donald trump is no longer one of the 400 richest people in the country, for the first time in 25 years. the former president was left off the forbes 400 list of america's richest people. according to "forbes," trump's net worth fell by about $600 million during the pandemic. it now stands at a reported $2.5 billion. jeff bezos topped the list for the fourth straight year with a net worth of $201 billion,

followed by tesla's elon musk. mark zuckerberg and bill gates also made it in the top five. we've been discussing of late the harms instagram has on young people, something documented by facebook's own internal reporting. up next, direct testimonials of those ill effects. we'll speak with college students who are pleading with lawmakers, quote, instagram is doing grave harm to our generation, we need help to stop it. we'll speak with them next. discover card i just got my cashback match is this for real? yup! we match all the cash back new card members earn at the end of their first year automatically woo! i got my mo-ney! it's hard to contain yourself isn't it? uh- huh! well let it go! woooo! get a dollar for dollar match at the end of your first year. only from discover. bipolar depression. it made me feel like i was trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of people

living with bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place... ...and be hard to manage. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. this is where i want to be. latuda is not for everyone. call your doctor about unusual mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children, teens, and young adults. elderly dementia patients on latuda have an increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor about fever, stiff muscles, and confusion, as these may be life threatening... ...or uncontrollable muscle movements, as these may be permanent. these are not all the serious side effects. now i'm back where i belong. ask your doctor about latuda and pay as little as $0 for your first prescription. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪

and pay as little as $0 got a couple of bogeys on your six, limu. they need customized car insurance from liberty mutual so they only pay for what they need. what do you say we see what this bird can do? woooooooooooooo... we are not getting you a helicopter. looks like we're walking, kid. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. after decades of big pollution liars, vanguard. climate change deniers, and out-of-control fires we're almost there. congress is close to passing a clean energy plan that tackles climate change head on by creating millions of good-paying jobs in the fastest growing industries. we can lower utility bills for families today while protecting the planet our children inherit tomorrow.

congress, our window to act is closing and once it does, it may never open again. act on climate change, now. hi susan! honey? yeah? i respect that. but that cough looks pretty bad... try this robitussin honey. the real honey you love... plus the powerful cough relief you need. mind if i root through your trash? now get powerful relief with robitussin elderberry. ♪darling, i, i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪girl, i don't know, i don't know,♪ ♪i don't know why i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪oh no, babe girl, if i could only make you see♪ ♪and make you understand♪ get a dozen double crunch shrimp for $1 with any steak entrée. only at applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood.

has has facebook ever found again in its research that kids show signs of addiction on instagram in. >> facebook has studied a pattern that they call problematic use, what we might more commonly call addiction. it has a very high bar for what it believes it is. it says you self-identify that you don't have control over your usage and that it is materially harming your health, your school work, or your physical health. 5 to 6% of 14-year-olds have the self-awareness to admit both those questions. it is likely that far more than 5 to 6% of 14-year-olds are addicted to instagram. >> do you believe that they're actually going to discontinue

instagram kids or are they just waiting for the dust to settle? >> i would be sincerely surprised if they do not continue working on instagram kids and i would be amazed if a year from now we don't have this conversation again. >> why? >> facebook understands that if they want to continue to grow, they have to find new users. they have to make sure that the next generation is just as engaged with instagram as the current one, and the way they'll do that is by making sure that children establish habits before they have good self-regulation. >> by hooking kids. >> by hooking kids. >> facebook whistle-blower frances haugen testifying on capitol hill yesterday about the dangerous impact social media is having on children, especially teens. our next guests are both gen z and avid instagram users and write for "time" magazine about the negative effects from social media they have experienced.

destiny adams is a senior at oklahoma state university and zaman kareshi is a sophomore at american university and a social media coordinator at the real facebook oversight board. they are calling on lawmakers to help protect their generation and to hold facebook ceo mark zuckerberg accountable, and let's go right into the why. destiny, i want to start with you. i'm going to kind of go through your story a little bit so we can take it a step further here. you created your first instagram account when you were 13 years old. a lot of kids create finstas, fake insta accounts and that's a way to skirt the rules, skirt parental supervision and also the age limit, and you remembered what got you social gain, the way you post, how much skin you showed, things like that, and it began to really kind of consume you, your engagement with instagram, the comments, the likes, the shares,

and at the age of 22, which is now, you actually became anxious and went to a doctor for help, and there was a moment, and it was a post about loing your father that was sort of a pivotal moment for you. can you tell us about that? >> so when i was posting about my father, i was sharing i thought it was just another time to share a moment in my life because that was a big moment in my life, and instagram was supposed to be a place where you can share pivotal moments, but the unspoken rule is that you're only supposed to show what -- the good moments, the positive moments, so once i posted -- i posted a caption about the grief that i was going through with my friends and days after i saw myself going back every two hours and just checking, tweaking words here and there, trying to make it sound more optimistic because i didn't want

people to feel sorry for me. i noticed i wasn't getting as many likes as i usually did, but i was getting comments and they were more like are you okay comments. it was a lot to deal with, so i was very aware of how i was being perceived. >> yeah. that sounds -- and by the way, the anxiety that you're suffering from, it's not an unusual situation. i see this in most of the young people that i know today in my life are suffering from some sort of impact from social media. zaman, talk to me if you could about how young people communicate and how much instagram, social media, different types, snapchat, facebook is a part of how they communicate. is it like 10%, 5%, like how much of the communication happens on social media? >> yeah, i mean, most young

people are on social media in some way or another, and we know that the majority of teenagers in the united states are on instagram in particular, so following yesterday's hearing with frances haugen, the facebook whistle-blower, it was clear to see that with that many teenagers on the platform and given what we are learning and continuing to learn about the addictive nature of these platforms that there needs to be some real action taken. as you said, so many teenagers operate on these social networks. it's part of our daily lives, whether you're in middle school or high school and whether you're an of age user or an underage user. >> and destiny, can you explain how this has impacted your life, like, and have you -- are you still on instagram, and can you talk about the i guess it's

almost as if you can't stop. can you talk about how deep that goes? >> so instagram is very impactful. i think one of the things that we said in our article is that it was a main source of communication for a lot of people that are our age and underage, but it is the only form of communication for millions of teenagers, and it's very impactful. some people can only interact on social media. some people only have friends on social media. some people only feel safe on social media, which is a contradiction to what we're talking about, but i think that just goes to show how impactful instagram and tiktok and snapchat and facebook are to our generation. >> zaman, what would a better version of instagram, a better version of tiktok look like to you? because as you both say

accurately, it's not going anywhere. we're not getting rid of social media. this is the way of the world, so if it's going to be there as someone who uses it every day and participates in it and sees the ill effects that can come from it. how could instagram, how could tiktok change to consider the mental health of the people who use it? >> yeah, as frances haugen, the facebook whistle-blower testified before congress yesterday, she said that instagram users often feel like they exhibit symptoms of depression or anxiety or eating disorders, yet internal facebook research shows they continue to stay on the platform, and so with that in mind, i think we have to keep in mind that young people aren't going away from these platforms, and so we need to build these platforms and regulate these platforms to be better. because there is a social price as we wrote in our article to leaving these platforms. people can be ostracized as

frances haugen said for leaving instagram. there's some basic steps that congress absolutely should be taking including banning targeted ads for kids. why should any kid need to be bombarded with advertisements directly to them. that also includes restricting the data collection of people under the age of 18 and putting safeguards in place so we are not endlessly scrolling on these platforms, and mark zuckerberg and adam osari the head of instagram need to be held accountable for this because they have destroyed the lives of a generation perhaps for the rest of their lives, and congress needs to implement regulation so when we're using these platforms we can be safe. >> destiny adam and

zamaan quareshi, thank you both very much. thank you for sharing your stories and for speaking out. final thoughts for you, i got two words on this. big tobacco. >> yes, we're going to have to take responsibility for our future at every level, and this is incredibly important, mika, when it comes to our children and when it comes to this next generation. taking responsibility means taking concrete action. that's what needs to happen right now it seems to me. >> mika, this is a conversation you and i have had. it's front and center for me. i've got a 14-year-old daughter who's making the case to be on instagram. we've said no so far. i said show me the upside, and when you listen to someone as wise as destiny or as smart as zamaan talk about it, it's hard to see it, when the value is how you look, where you've been, the friends you have, it's hard to see the upside. >> you would not believe the pain it causes teenage girls,

and i've seen it, and it's heartbreaking and it's unbelievable that facebook is still holding off on this when their own research shows it. that does it for us this morning, stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it is wednesday, october 6th. let's get smarter. this morning the pressure is son with u.s. default less than two weeks away. the senate set to vote today to begin the process to suspend the debt limit, but republicans, they are not likely to get on board, not even an inch. the big question, what other options do democrats have to avoid a complete crisis? we'll be speaking to the head of the s.e.c., gary gensler about what a default could mean for the markets and the broader economy. and on the covid front, a glimmer of hope with cases down in 40 states across the country. we will