by cop. there are so many pieces of this. that's why they're saying this is a dangerous situation. he's believed to have a gun. >> kerry sanders, thank you. thank you to all of our law enforcement experts walking us through the breaking news in this hour. we will stay on top of it throughout the afternoon. but that's going to do it for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports." chuck todd with "mtp daily" starts right now. ♪♪ welcome to "meet the press daily." we've got a lot to get to. we are going to begin with the breaking news out of arlington, texas, this is the facts that we know. four people have been injured, three are hospitalized following a fight which led to a student opening fire at timberview high school which is just outside of arlington, texas, a suburb, of course, of the larger area of

dallas. police have identified the suspected gunman as 18-year-old timothy george simpkins. a search for the subject is under way. and he's considered to be armed and, therefore, dangerous. police briefed the public on the situation. they are confident the incident involved one student. the student was involved in a fight and drew a weapon. >> this is not a random act of violence. this is not somebody attacking our schools. this is a student -- we believe it was a student that got into a fight and drew a weapon. >> authorities say they're searching the school methodically. the all clear has just been given and students have been transported to a nearby reunification center. the severity of injuries of the hospitalized victims are unknown. we're going to turn now to

washington where the level of government dysfunction is hitting new heights if that's possible, or maybe we should say new lows, with the fate of the u.s. economy on the line. that's all. this hour, the president is meeting with a group of business leaders in an attempt to tell them what they already know, that a default on the u.s. debt in less than two weeks would have disastrous consequences for businesses and consumers everywhere. this is not a fact that anybody disagrees with, by the way. everybody, republicans and democrats alike, believe this is true. but we're playing politics with this, anyway. even if there's not a default, what we're watching is a 100% self-inflicted congressional crisis that remains us in the world of just how unstable and dysfunctional or political system has gotten. republicans could do their part to avoid disaster, but they're message is, you're on your own and mitch mcconnell isn't trying to change any minds inside his own caucus.

>> they said they're perfectly prepared to do the jobs themselves. the easiest way to do that is through the reconciliation process. as i pointed out for two months. >> how is that easier than republicans not filibustering them -- >> that would require getting consent from every single republican to lower the threshold to 51. i can't imagine that would happen. >> do you not have the power to do that? >> and the reason that wouldn't happen is we've been pointing out for two months how they ought to do it. that's the way to get the job done. >> democrats could do this on their own. that's the problem and the political box they're in because they can do it through reconciliation. they don't want to do it that way. they want mcconnell's help so they can raise it through regular order. >> we do not have the luxury of using a drawn-out, convoluted and risky process. we could prevent a catastrophic

default with a simple majority vote tomorrow if republicans could just get out of the damn way, we could get this all done. >> reporter: can you guarantee the u.s. will not default -- >> ask mitch mcconnell. the bottom line is, it's very simple. it's on his shoulders. we have been -- we are willing to cast the 50 votes ourselves. it's up to him, all he has to do is get out of the way. >> the other way, though, democrats can raise the debt limit without any republican sign-off is through a filibuster carveout. but moderates like joe manchin and kyrsten sinema don't want the senate to work that way. >> i truly implore both leaders, i implore them to engage, start working, work this out. this should not be a crisis. i've been very, very clear where i stand, where i stand on the filibuster. i don't have to repeat that. i think i've been very clear.

nothing changes. but the bottom line is, we have a responsibility to be the adults. our leadership has the responsibility to lead. and that's what i'm asking and imploring them to do. >> there are some senate democrats that believe showing joe manchin how much the filibuster is being weaponized for this situation might change his mind on this. which may explain why they want to try the debt limit through this procedure, forcing the republican filibuster to see if that shakes manchin's support for this. unlikely, but we shall see. manchin has suggested that he would be open to the reconciliation option of doing this. as for the president, he said it's up to mitch mcconnell. but he told reporters last night, maybe it isn't. >> reporter: are democrats considering raising the debt limit using a carveout with the filibuster to raise the debt limit? >> i think that's a real possibility. >> this is not how a healthy

democracy operates. leigh ann caldwell has the latest from capitol hill. monica alba is at the white house for us. at what point -- where are we in the process? it seems as if democrats want to methodically show that the republicans are not cooperating here. at what point do they have to start looking at the go it alone approach? i don't know how many times they need to learn this lesson, mitch mcconnell is impervious to these -- to sort of being shamed into doing this. ask justice merrick garland. oh, right. >> reporter: we're at the brink right now. there's a lot of decisions that democrats have to make. in about an hour and a half, there's going to be another vote, a procedural vote to move to the debt limit and, of course, that needs support of ten republicans, 60 senators,

for it to pass. so now democrats, anyway, have been discussing for a while now, but it really came to a head yesterday during a closed door lunch, this idea of creating a very narrow carveout in the filibuster to allow them to lift or suspend the debt limit with just a simple majority. of course, we know that is a slippery slope and that is essentially breaking open the filibuster for it to be further carved out down the road. where we're at now, they're supposed to be meeting right now. five minutes we got notice that it has been rescheduled. so what is happening behind the scenes, we don't yet know. listening to what senator joe manchin said, as you just played, where he's imploring democratic leaders -- or democratic and republican leaders to talk to each other, either he's asking them to do it or he's projecting, he knows

something we don't yet know. perhaps because of this discussion of the filibuster and the threats that democrats are making, maybe mcconnell is coming to the table and maybe they are working out some sort of agreement. we'll see. but a lot is going to happen in the next hour or two and we'll see how this works out. go ahead. >> i know we've been putting a lot of focus on what the democrats are going to do. there are two republicans that are at least showing i don't want to say a crack in mitch mcconnell's strategy, but i got to ask you about the definition between what an "a" hole is and a complete "a" hole is. i didn't know i would be asking that question. but lindsey graham insisted he wasn't going to be a complete fill in the blank here when it came to the debt ceiling. and kevin kramer seemed to hint, this isn't a vote-o-rama as we

usually do. >> reporter: the interesting thing with mcconnell, he said he doesn't think he can get consent to allow these concessions to happen. but that's not how mcconnell operates. if he wants his party to stick together, he's able to get his party to stick together. but this is making republicans extremely nervous and the democrats that i'm talking to, they are more motivated than i have ever seen them regarding this issue of the filibuster. they say they're more angry toward mcconnell than at any time in recent history, including during the kavanaugh debacle and merrick garland. i don't understand that. but that's the feeling around here. they think that mcconnell is further eroding the institution and creating a political process out of something that is usually used to make concession and is to get something out of it. but never used as complete political brinkmanship. that is what is extremely frustrating to the democrats.

of course, democrats, they don't want to put a number on the debt, which is what they would have to do if it was done through reconciliation and they don't want to go through another vote-o-rama because they know they're going to have to do it again when they get to their human infrastructure bill. there's a lot of politics at stake. but they're extremely fed up with the tactics that have been played here and we'll see if there's some sort of gentleman's agreement between the two male leaders at the top of the senate. >> the question may be, can president biden play a role? monica, let me move over to you. when he was vice president biden, he regularly was able to sort of go to mitch mcconnell at the last minute and carve out some sort of an agreement here. i'm curious, does the white house want this fight over debt limit or would they -- do they think it's getting in the way of what they're trying to do on their larger agenda? >> reporter: there is a concern, chuck, that this is detracting

from the larger pitch for the domestic agenda, the multitrillion dollar infrastructure plans that were the centerpiece of discussions the last couple of weeks because they thought potentially it was going to come to a head. of course, we know those votes were all delayed and they are working with a limited timeline and runway here. so they are a little bit concerned that what the president sought to do yesterday in michigan by going out and making this pitch in a swing district gets drowned out by this. but they also at the exact same time acknowledge the urgency of extending america's ability to borrow and raising the debt ceiling. they're using language that is a little bit hyperbolic because they want people to understand the potential economic disaster. that's something that they are more keenly focused on because nothing focuses this

administration quite like a looming deadline. that's, of course, what they're up against when we're talking about 12 or so days here. but in reality, it's less time to actually get their solution or potential path forward in order. so the president right there on your screen, you're seeing him meeting with bank ceos and some other important business leaders to try to continue to hammer home the real-world consequences of what it would look like if the u.s. does for the first time ever in its history default. and what it sounds like the president is saying here, again, it's a sense of urgency. we need to act now. and he's trying to sort of use all the levers he has. on monday he gave a speech saying republicans are playing russian roulette with the debt ceiling. today he's trying to bring in other leaders to see if he can apply further political pressure. we'll see where they are after this vote -- >> monica, let's pause here a minute. let's listen into what he's saying on the debt limit here. i want to get at this confusing messaging that they're trying to

push. >> we need to act and we need to act now. many of them are here with me. not next week. now. look forward to hearing from their perspectives and will now get this meeting started with my colleague's permission. i would like to start off, if i may, with a question for the ceo of citi. by the way, congratulations on your award. you run one of the largest banks in america -- >> we were -- obviously, caught the tail end of the remarks. they did hook that up live. but, monica, i want to get at the double messaging that they're trying here. this event today has the build back better paraphernalia, if you will, logo, the backdrop,

yet the news that he's trying to drive home is, republicans, get out of the way so we don't crash the economy and the debt limit. i think this gets to the first question we talked about which is, this is disrupting their ability to sell their agenda. >> reporter: and i think the president is trying to argue that these things are connected, right? these negotiations on capitol hill are happening on multiple fronts and we saw that just earlier this afternoon when top white house officials were there meeting with important lawmakers and we're told most of the conversation was actually about the build back better agenda, trying to advance infrastructure negotiations. and we got to figure out a plan on extending and raising the debt ceiling. they're trying to juggle both of these things. i think it's a little bit cumbersome for them. and they're dealing with one challenge at a time. the current challenge is the debt ceiling while knowing at the same time that there are all of these markers put in place by

leadership for votes that could come on the infrastructure agenda within days, if not weeks. all of this is happening on parallel tracks. but i think what's really important to remember here is that president biden did -- when he gave momentum to that possibility of the filibuster carveout last night, that was significant. we've never seen him do that on any of these kinds of issues. i think that's the most telling development of the last 24 hours. but if that's not going to go anywhere, the white house now is in this serious position, saying, we tried everything else, we're going to have to go forward using budget reconciliation. that's exactly where the republicans want them politically and that's what the democrats are trying to avoid, chuck. >> we normalized congressional dysfunction. our elected leaders have normalized to the point where nobody can be shamed by shock. this isn't the way it's supposed to work? except for the last decade, this is exactly how it's worked. thank you both for getting us

started. up next, i'll talk to the united states senator about where we're going next, tim kaine, on what the senate democrats plan to do to deal with this manufactured crisis. later, a power play as idaho's lieutenant governor tries to overturn the state's covid vaccine mandate simply because the sitting governor decided to leave town at the border. you're watching "meet the press daily." er you're watching "meet the press daily. ♪ it's grilled cheese time. ♪ ♪ yeah, it's time for grilled cheese. ♪ ♪ after we make grilled cheese, ♪ ♪ then we're eating grilled cheese. ♪ ♪ because it's time. ♪ ♪ yeah. ♪ ♪ time for grilled cheese. ♪ people everywhere living with type 2 diabetes are waking up to what's possible ♪ yeah. ♪ with rybelsus®. ♪ you are my sunshine ♪ ♪ my only sunshine... ♪ rybelsus® works differently than any other diabetes pill to lower blood sugar in all 3 of these ways... increases insulin when you need it...

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and we are back. the president continues to meet with those ceos, focused right now at the dangers of a potential default on u.s. debt. he said republicans were being reckless and playing russian roulette with the economy. democrats do have the power to raise the debt limit without republican sign-off but haven't settled on a plan "b." assuming the vote this afternoon

fails, democrats have 12 days to figure out what to do next. we're joined now by senator tim kaine. senator, i understand you weren't supposed to be able to make this interview right now. you were supposed to be in a senate democratic caucus lunch trying to figure out plan "b." is the cancellation of the meeting meaning we don't have a plan "b" yet? >> i think we have plans "a," "b," "c" and maybe “d”. but we're trying to decide which is the one that will most likely clearly lead us past this crisis manufactured by republicans as soon as possible. i would like to get this fixed today. plan "a" was for the republicans to do what we've always been willing to do as democrats. this isn't a both sides dysfunction. democrats have been willing to pay the nation's bills. if the president was a republican, we would do it. so plan "a" is, the republicans

should just do what we've always been willing to do in the past. plan "b" is, if they're not going to do that, they should stand aside and let us extend the debt limit by a simple majority vote rather than filibustering it and requiring 60 votes. plan "c" is they should provide ten votes, plan “d” is, we could do a carveout of rules that would benefit both parties over the course of the future, whether the majority was democrat or republican in either the senate or the white house. if we clarify that extending the debt ceiling was a simple majority vote, it would take away the ability of any party to play hostage takers with the economy and there's a plan "e" and "f," but we're trying to figure out what is the way we can govern responsibility and do it as quickly as possible. >> speaking of what could be plan "e" or "f," this comes to the question that i'm sure you've heard from some of your

constituents which says, why are the democrats bringing a knife to mitch mcconnell's gunfight? mcconnell will fight in a way that democrats don't. take the weapon away. change the rules on the debt limit to make it a two-thirds negative vote in order to do that, which would serve the same function, but also take away the hostage for the long run. that could actually bring him to the table because i think he wants the weapon. >> right. i think that's a good plan. jeff merkley and i have a bill, we would say the president can raise the debt ceiling on the president's own, subject to a resolution of disapproval in congress. which is the same as what you just put on the table. if we could enact that, that would enable this to be done. but whether we enact that or carve out from the filibuster

rules the -- raising or extending the debt ceiling, democrats should be willing to do this on our own and we're going to have to. remember, chuck, we all take an oath to support and defend the constitution of the united states. article 4 of the 14th amendment says the validity of the public debt of the united states shall not be questioned, period. we all take an oath to that. and the reason we take an oath to it and we've got to uphold it is defaulting or hostage-taking has series economic consequences. why would we impose a negative economic consequence on people unnecessarily when the pandemic is still hurting folks? we got to fix this today. >> by the way, didn't you just make a case that the debt -- the idea of a debt limit is unconstitutional, which some would argue? >> certainly i would argue that flirting around with default is unconstitutional, absolutely. and i happen to believe that the way we do debt management

through a debt limit is foolish. mayors and governors, cities and states have debt management policies, but it's never just a dollar amount. it is, we try to keep, you know, the total amount of debt to "x" percent of the gdp or the total amount of debt serviced to "y" percent of budgets. when that number is reflective of past obligations, the republicans ran up the credit card when donald trump was president. but for the republicans to do that and now say, we're not going to pay the bill, look, we all have the friend who when we go out to dinner will never grab for the check and let -- that's what the republicans are doing. nobody likes that guy. the republicans should just own up to the responsibilities of the debt they put on our credit card. they should meet the obligation that they swore an oath to. they shouldn't question the validity of u.s. public debt and

let's govern this country responsibility and move forward on getting a infrastructure bill and a build back better plan so americans can benefit at a time when they need it. >> we've been chatting our friend at punch bowl, mitch mcconnell has made two offers to senator schumer, one would be a lifting of the debt ceiling, referring to '22, or a promise to i think raise the -- raise the debt limit through an expedited reconciliation process. a small vote-o-rama. any of those ideas, something that is worth talking about? >> you know, i do -- not having heard those or seen the details, it's hard to comment. i would say, you know, senator schumer is going to look favorably on anything we can do today. and we ought to fix it today. because democrats are in the

majority with the white house. we're not going to allow the nation to default. let's not run it up to the last minute because then the economy starts to suffer and people start -- it's like flirting with closing of government until two hours before. it needlessly frightens a lot of people. >> right. you're not going to not do it. you're not going to not do it. we know we're here. we've normalized this dysfunction. how do you take it off the table so that the weapon doesn't get used anymore? i think -- you know, look -- >> and i think -- >> i think there's a direct line between congressional dysfunction and the fact that donald trump is taken seriously as a politician in america. >> i think there's something to that. and the way you take it off the table, you do this carveout on debt ceiling and make it a 50-voter, that way a minority party can play hostage-taker with it. whether it's democrat or

republican. or you do some version of this merkley-tim kaine bill. >> well, it sounds like something moved a little bit which is proof that maybe, maybe there's actually some pain being felt on the republican side of the aisle as well. senator tim kaine, thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. >> thanks, chuck. up next, the facebook ceo, mark zuckerberg personally responded to the whistle-blower, frances haugen's testimony, saying her claims that it puts profits over people don't make any sense. we'll speak with a group that's done the research for itself and what it found. you're watching "meet the press daily." you're watching "meet th daily. this is wealth. ♪ ♪ this is worth. that takes wealth. but this is worth. and that - that's actually worth more than you think. don't open that. wealth is important,

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shaq: (singing in background) can't unhear that. for a great low rate, and nearly 60 years of quality coverage - make the right call and go with the general. welcome back. facebook founder mark zuckerberg is responding to a former employee turned whistle-blower's allegations that the company has hidden research showing its products are potentially dangerous to teens and it puts profits ahead of people's well-being. in a statement, zuckerberg writes, we care deeply about issues like safety, well-being and mental health. the argument that we deliberately push content that makes people angry for profit is deeply illogical. we make money from ads. and advertisers consistently tell us where they don't want their content.

a whistle-blower told facebook's algorithm sowed division and hate and has led to violence. with us now, the ceo for countering digital hate which has done its own research into the dangers of facebook and its algorithms. let me start with this basic question. you heard and read mark zuckerberg's statement there. and you heard what ms. haugen said. based on your research, who is right? >> clearly what ms. haugen has said is not just her own testimony and analysis of the situation, but it's based on primary data that is taken directly from facebook. this is data that corroborates, it confirms what we've been finding independently in civil society, researchers, academics, organizations which looks at extremism and harms created in society on what we've been finding is that not only is there hate, misinformation

flowing unabated on these platforms, but there's been a serial failure to act. we've suspected it was driven by executives' desire for inaction and active choices made. we've said there's an active failure to act by these companies. what frances haugen has shown is that they -- that this is absolutely true. we were right all along. >> let's talk about specifically how somebody who finds his way on a facebook page to one hate group, your research has found they're -- they get introduced to other hate groups based on facebook. they didn't find it. facebook connects them, correct? >> that's exactly it. so about a year ago, we conducted a study, at that point, facebook changed their algorithms. they wanted to make the instagram algorithms more like

facebook. we're facebookizing instagram, essentially. and instagram used to be a platform where you got to the end of your feed, it said, congratulations you got to the end. they wanted to change it to one that kept you on the platform. they started showing you recommended posts. and we set up ten new accounts, each of them looking at different types of accounts. the organization behind the disinformation study on anti-vaxxers. so we were particularly looking at anti-vax. we wanted to know how are people being driven into that environment. we had them follow wellness influences, health authorities. what we found is what the algorithm was recommending was anti-vax content. not just that, when they started following anti-vax content, it started telling them to look at qanon, anti-semitism and shockingly, we found the same was true vice versa. following a psychological trait that we know exists that people

have high uncertainty, it means they feel a bit uncertain about where to get knowledge from, they're prone to conspiracies. and so they start to rabbit hole and the algorithm was driving them further and further into those worms of disinformation and hate. >> so, here's what i -- this is not a new phenomenon. even in the digital world, i remember a book -- this is a founder of move on. he wrote a book on how this was 15 years ago worrying about google. you could be a 9/11 truther before the internet and before google, you were just a nut job. but you put in 9/11 truther in google and suddenly you're like, oh, i'm not the only one. that's i guess -- this gets to the idea that there's no way facebook didn't know this is how it worked. >> not only did they know. that's very clear.

but their internal staff were warning and begging them to change direction. many people that work for facebook do so because they believe it to be a good place to work. they want to connect people. they believe in the original promise of social media, of facebook itself. of course, frances haugen herself is someone who, you know -- i don't mean to sort of diminish, but she drank a little bit of the kool-aid initially and thought actually, there's something really wrong here, how the kool-aid is made. one of the things that may have changed people's minds over time, when you think about mark zuckerberg himself, he very much is the man in charge. in a "new york times" article, he use to trump company over country at the end of his

meetings. he's putting himself first. what he meant when he said company over country, he meant, my pocketbook over the health of individuals and the nation. >> we're picking on facebook here because they're the one with the whistle-blower. are they the only social media company abusing their algorithms this way? >> no, they're not. chuck, you have done some extraordinary research and your own reporting over time about this. really what this is, it's a series of utilities. these are very large companies that are almost necessary parts of communication. what i'm trying to describe to people, how important google is, if you go to a pop quiz and you don't know the answer, you google it. facebook is a really important part of how we maintain our relationships. i moved to the united states in june of 2020, i connected with my friends through social media.

they're the sole owners of valuable commodities. they know their pipes are tainted. they know bad actors are dumping toxins in the water. and they've been busy attacking the people highlighting the harm, including now frances haugen. >> right. they keep thinking they can dilute the toxins. you can't dilute the toxins either. terrific work that you guys are doing there. we'll be following it. thanks for coming on and sharing your research with us. >> my pleasure, chuck. the increasing danger of republicans undermining confidence in our elections. it's now a basic talking point to the base of their electorate. but i can't be ignored. you're watching "meet the press daily." re watching "meet the pr daily. t irritating ♪ ♪ their excitement can get grating ♪ ♪ they're dressed for pastry baking ♪ ♪ the progressive family ♪ ♪ they're helpful but annoying ♪ ♪ they always leave us snoring ♪ ♪ accidents are boring with the progressive family ♪

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welcome back. we're continuing to follow a disturbing trend that is showing no signs of slowing down. republicans that are seeking to undermine the results of the

2020 election simply for their own political gain, to appease a certain wing of the party these days. in florida, lake county republicans, believe it or not, are pushing for a statewide election audit of last november's election. remember, this was florida. even after the republican governor there ron desantis called florida a model for how ballots should be handled, meaning there was no problems. trump carried florida. yet they want an audit. i should put audit in quotes. in virginia, glen yungkin had a debate last week and said there's no evidence of real fraud in virginia is now calling for a, quote, audit of the commonwealth's voting machines. virginia completed a routine audit in march. the results didn't change anything. these efforts stem from the former president who continue to spread the claim that he won

last november. trump's claims have gotten more twisted and disturbing. he told a podcast yesterday the following, the insurrection took place on november 3rd. this is donald trump. that was the insurrection when they rigged the election. the big insurrection, really the crime of the century that took place on november 3rd, not on january 6th. even for donald trump, this is a new level of delusion. folks across the board, these calls for so-called audits toward the 2020 election are unserious efforts, but they represent a serious problem. this is about boiling the frog, folks. nearly a year after election day, these people are knowingly trying to undermine the results of a free and fair election for one reason and run reason only, undermining faith in future elections for their own gain and apiecing one man who can't

accept defeat. up next, a wild story out of idaho where the lieutenant governor is overruling the sitting governor, the second the sitting governor left the state. i'm revising my quote yesterday, frank, the story is idaho. trust me, frank. the story is idaho. you're watching "meet the press daily." eet the press daily. to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin,... i want that. eliquis. eliquis reduces stroke risk better than warfarin. and has less major bleeding than warfarin. eliquis has both. don't stop taking eliquis without talking to your doctor as this may increase your risk of stroke. eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. while taking, you may bruise more easily... or take longer for bleeding to stop. get help right away for unexpected bleeding, or unusual bruising. it may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines.

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♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ welcome back. in idaho, the fight over vaccine mandates has taken an unexpected turn. with the actual governor out of town, the lieutenant governor, is able to become the acting governor and is using the opportunity to overrule him. as the acting governor, the lieutenant governor issued an executive order on tuesday overturning the governor's covid vaccine mandate and the mandatory testing that he's called for for the virus.

governor little is in texas meeting with other republican governors criticizing president biden's handling of border issues. he tweeted that he will be, quote, rescinding and reversing any actions taken by the lieutenant governor upon his return. the lieutenant governor tried to activate the national guard in order to send troops to the border at the same time, but she was turned down by the commanding general. this is actually not the first time this lieutenant governor has tried to undermine the current governor. they're both republicans. what is going on here? joining me now to discuss more is idaho statesman reporter. this looks like a soap opera, but it looks like a soap opera that is part of this larger divide in the republican party that we've seen between sort of the more traditional wing of the party and this other wing of the party that's gotten traction of late that we've seen i guess under the trump wing of the

world. explain this relationship. >> right. so this was something we saw a lot in our most recent legislative session. a lot of infighting between the party members. you know, something interesting about idaho is the governor and lieutenant governor don't run on the same ticket. so they were elected separately. and sometimes because that relationship isn't there, it can create a antagonistic relationship between them. they're known to go for long periods of time without talking. it's a unique situation here. >> she's done this before. is she -- first of all, is she planning to run for governor herself now? is this governor term limited or not? if not, is this going to be a primary? >> the lieutenant governor has announced that she plans to run for governor next year.

governor little has not said one way or the other. but there are those who think he very well could and we may see our current lieutenant governor and current governor running against one another next year. >> the other major party doesn't have a role, so there's really only one party in politics in idaho, it's the republican party. and so that's where the actual divide is, is the republican party so dominant that there are factions in the party that make it harder for them to governor, even though it's essentially a one-party state? >> i would say that's right. i've heard it said that idaho essentially has three parties, the democrats don't have a lot of power here. a lot of the power struggles really do come between kind of different factions of the

republican party here in idaho. >> and is there a divide that's -- is it just about trump? is it a business divide? how would you describe these divisions? >> governor little has been in idaho politics for a long time. he he comes from this more old school, moderate kind of republican party that idaho has seen for a long time. then there is this growing, you know, group of republicans here in idaho that do follow more trump-like, i would say, politics. >> well, it sounds like we could have some fascinating primaries. and sally, this won't be the last time that we tap you for finding out what's going on in boise and all over the state. appreciate you coming on and trying to explain this most unusual governor/lieutenant governor relationship. >> thank you. of course behind all of this political drama in idaho is an

actual issue. it's the issue of vaccines. dr. peter hotez who says idaho was already one of the most antivaccine states in the country before covid joins me next. you're watching "meet the pretty daily." the pretty daily. - had enough? - no... arthritis. here. new aspercreme arthritis. full prescription-strength? reduces inflammation? thank the gods. don't thank them too soon. kick pain in the aspercreme. at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with

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indoor activities. this comes as cdc data shows two-thirds of eligible americans are vaccinated. we do expect the white house covid response team to highlight those numbers in a briefing in just a few hours. all this comes as 65 million americans remain unvaccinated. joining me is the director for vaccine development at texas children's hospital, dr. peter hotez. dr. hotez, we are technically at the start of fall. things are going to get colder. this is one of those concerns we had a year ago, covid and the flu together. i've seen some experts believe that the delta wave might be our last wave of covid. give us a sense of where you think we are right now in this pandemic, and is this -- what kind of confidence level do you have that this is our last wave? >> yeah, i don't have a lot of confidence, chuck.

and here's why. we could have had this discussion exactly a year ago at this time because we were coming out of that horrible second summer wave across the south and the numbers started going down precipitously and a lot of people were being very self congratulatory, saying, okay, i guess this is over. then around the time of halloween or a week afterward, it started going up and up and up. then our worst wave of all happened over november, december, and into january where we were hitting 3,000 american deaths and covid-19 was the leading cause of death in the united states on a daily basis. now, i don't think the next wave will be as bad, because as you point out, we do have about half the country vaccinated. but the bad news is we only have half the country vaccinated. so there's still a lot of unvaccinated people and the immunity from infection and recovery, if they've not gotten vaccinated afterwards, is

tenuous. that's why we're seeing this rise in cases across the northern border with canada. so that's what i'm watching closely, to see if that further ignites to give us another third wave. it could go either way. i think it's more likely we are going to see a substantial increase again after halloween. >> and just because of the same patterns that we saw last year, even though we have so many people vaccinated? >> yeah, well, we have so many people vaccinated, but we have so many people unvaccinated. and that's why you're seeing it now in states like idaho that are getting overwhelmed, because they have some of the lowest vaccination rates equivalent to the south. it's the same politics, that same, you know, far right, health freedom, medical freedom, we're defiant, you can't tell us what to do, with these horrible self-defeating consequences. you're seeing this in idaho, montana, north dakota. so there's still a lot of unvaccinated people there.

we do have some infected and recovered, that may contribute to some level of herd immunity. it's not enough. that's what i'm concerned about. >> the issue of boosters, there's a report in politico now that there's been some -- i call it disagreement in the scientific community with the white house covid task force about how much boosters are being pushed. i know you believe that this is likely a three-dose vaccine, two-dose if it's the j&j, in order to have a complete set of protections. but what do you make of this disagreement over boosters? >> and both sides have merits to their arguments. those who are holding off on boosters, recommending that we hold off, are saying look, the hospitalizations haven't gone up yet, the deaths haven't gone up.

to that i say, look, the cdc has not been tracking vaccine effectiveness very well, so we don't want to find out there's a problem two months after the fact and a lot of people get hospitalized and lose their lives. and the devastating effects of long covid, who wants to get long covid and have gray matter brain degeneration and cognitive decline? so i think we need to vaccinate against that as well. >> i have to ask you about this news which could be one of the best pieces of news globally in a long time. a vaccine for malaria. how important, how big, how excited should we be about this? >> if we were having this discussion in 2019, we would say malaria is still one of the leading killers in the world. it's been eclipsed a little bit by covid-19. but among young infants in africa, malaria is still as devastate as it's ever been. i've been tracking this 40 years, my major activity is to

develop vaccines for parasitic infections, worm infections. when i was working at rockefeller on worm vaccines, they were doing malaria vaccines at nyu. it's exciting, 40 years later we're finally seeing this. >> this could be a life game changer, particularly in africa. dr. peter hotez, always terrific to get your expertise on this program. thank you all for being with us. msnbc's coverage continues right now with my friend geoff bennett. it is great to be with you. i'm geoff bennett. new details this hour on a possible offer from mitch mcconnell to chuck schumer to suspend america's debt after weeks of playing a game of congressional chicken. to be clear, it's no game. failure to raise or suspend our debt limit could have devastating and immediate