we're proud to have built the city's recycling system from the ground up, helping to make san francisco the greenest big city in america. let's keep making a differene together. tonight on "the mehdi hasan show," senator elizabeth warren joins me live. we'll find out where her red line is on the trillion dollar budget talks. i speak to fiona hill on her time in the trump administration at the national security council. she testified against trump at his first impeachment trial and tells us why she went to work for him in the first place. plus, abu zubaydah. i'll talk to the man who captured him, former cia intelligence officer and former whistle-blower john kiriakou.

good evening. i'm mehdi hasan. nine months after the storming of the united states capitol, the attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election is still under way. we are in the midst of a rolling coup. almost every day republicans pass more voter suppression laws. they purge more and more election officials and they entrench the big lie that the election was stolen. just check out this weekend. >> and the republicans have to stay strong. you have to stay strong. you have to fight. bring our country back. >> do you feel that enough has been done for a free and fair election for these congressional races in 2022? >> we are making great improvements. and as you say, 18 states. but we've also been able to stop hr-1 where the democrats would have greater control of our election, of what we could actually say, a speech czar to make the democrats have greater control when it comes to federal election commission. and these states is where the

rules need to change. we need to clean the rolls up like in los angeles there is more than 1.2 million people on the rolls. that's more than who are old enough to actually register to vote. >> are we going to follow what the constitution says or not? i hope we get back to what the constitution says. but clearly, in a number of states they didn't follow those legislative rules. >> so you think the election was stolen? >> what i said is there are states that didn't follow their legislatively set rules. >> it's the words of gop congressman steve scalise that are the most chilling to me. he is carefully foreshadowing what the gop position is likely to be come 2024. not just election fraud, but making sure that republican state legislatures will have the power to pick each slate of presidential electors, never mind voters and their pesky vote in a democracy. the republicans want to unilaterally decide who runs the country. it's all about election subversion now. mark my words. if donald trump is the 2024 republican presidential nominee

and republicans control the house of representatives, they will not certify a democratic victory in 2024. we'll have more ahead on a new report that offers fresh details on what trump was willing to do to steal the election from joe biden, including a bonkers conspiracy that chinese-made nest thermostats were switching votes in georgia. as i've said many times before, this is not normal. none of this is normal. as a newcomer to this country, let me remind you, that if we were seeing what's happening here in another country, we'd be very, very alarmed. don't get me wrong. i chose to become american because i do think there are many wonderful and great things about this country. but one thing we are not great at is providing basic rights to the people of this country. not just democratic rights, but basic economic and social rights too. look at the rest of the world. take health care. in the united kingdom, where i'm from, everyone has free health care, cradle to grave. there are no medical bills. it's called a national health service, and it's free at the

point of use, even under conservative governments. here in the united states, though, prior to the pandemic, 87 million americans were uninsured or underinsured and medical bills are thought to be the number one reason why americans file for bankruptcy. take higher education. in germany, all public universities are free. all of them. no tuition fees for undergraduates. here in the u.s., it costs a fortune to get a basic degree. student debt has doubled since 2008 and now stands at a record-breaking $1.7 trillion. take paid family leave. estonia, bulgaria, hungary, japan, latvia, norway, slovenia all offer more than a year's worth of paid leave to new parents. they all do it. while the united states is the only rich country on earth that offers no national paid parental leave to its citizens. take child care. norway's government spends nearly $30,000 per toddler per year. yet this graph from "the new york times" that went viral this past week starkly shows, we come in last, spending a pathetic

$500 per toddler per year. most elected democrats are trying to ever so slowly bring us in line with the rest of the civilized world. joe biden's build back better expands medicare and medicaid. it provides two free years of community college. and universal pre-k. it guarantees 12 weeks of guaranteed medical and family leave for the first time in history. not as much as progressives want, but it's a start. so why would any self-proclaimed democrat oppose any of that? what we are witnessing in congress is not just a fight er over price tags and policy details, but a battle for the soul of the democratic party and who it stands for, corporations or people. joining me now is one of the leaders of the progressive democrats in congress, former presidential candidate and massachusetts senator elizabeth warren. welcome to the show this evening, senator. let me start with a number -- a question that you get all the time. i have to ask it, sorry. joe manchin says $1.5 trillion is his maximum number. senator kyrsten sinema says she is not going give us a number. joe biden says $2 trillion maybe pramila jayapal says not going

below $3 trillion. where does elizabeth warren stand on this big never-ending democratic party debate over the price tag on this bill, which is over ten years, by the way. how much you willing to go down off $3.5 trillion over ten years? >> so let me just start with the fact i think it's absolutely the wrong question and the wrong way to go about this. this is not the price tag that is what the top line number is. it's what do we need to get done. and we need to get child care in america. we need to expand health care coverage in america. and we need to take a big whack at the climate crisis that is suffering all around the world. so i keep asking the question, let's just build this one from the bottom up. we know what we need. how much is it going to cost us to get there? and for everybody who says no, no, we're just going to come down from 3.5, i want to say then what are you planning to leave behind? because there are things i'm not

going to leave behind, and there are things that democrats should never leave behind. >> just to be clear, i agree with you, it's the wrong question. sadly, both of us, we work in washington, d.c. where it is a question. >> fair enough. fair enough. >> and even aoc when she was on the show last sunday said it was horrible question. but she did say the low twos would be too low for her. based on what she wants to spend, you want to spend, america would like to spend, the low twos get to where we need to get to on climate change and the rest? >> do keep in mind where we want to get to, i think it takes about $6 trillion to get to where we want to. >> well said. >> and part of the reason for that is exactly what you pointed out at the top, and that is how many places we are so far behind. look at the 34 other nations that make a bigger investment in their children. for everybody who saw that graph, you know, the united states is not just a little behind the rest of the world we are way behind the rest of the world. and that has implications

throughout our economy and throughout our society. so right now on child care, if i can just focus in on that one. >> yes. >> we, millions of women get knocked out of the workforce during a crisis, and now what happens is they can't get back into the workforce. so one out of four women is saying i can't go to work because i don't have child care. that means that when the small businesses say i can't get anybody to come work for me, big businesses say we have chinks in our supply chain because people can't work. what do you think part of the problem is? women who don't have child care. so the pieces fit together. this is about investing in our children. it's about investing in our workers. it's about investing in the future of our nation. that's the fight i'm just going to keep pushing for. >> so it's a good fight to keep having. we often hear you described as a progressive. bernie sanders called a socialist. yes joe manchin and kyrsten sinema, your colleagues were blocking action on climate change. wanted to cut funding in the bill for the climate.

they are referred to as moderates. senator, what is moderate about allowing the planet to burn? >> you know, there is nothing that's moderate. look, for me, when we talk about these differences, i just want to be really clear about this. increasing child care, attacking the climate change problem, increasing the minimum wage, expanding medicare, all of those things, the overwhelming majority of americans want to see. and that's democrats, republicans, independents, a majority of america wants to see this. you know, the progressive agenda is america's agenda. so don't tell me that throwing sand in the gears on trying to get those jobs done is somehow moderate. no. >> no. >> what we need in this country and what america wants across a political spectrum is for us to

invest in america and can i just throw in make the giant corporations and the billionaires pay for it like they should. >> so i will come back to paying for it in just a moment. >> good. >> very quickly, senator sinema is reportedly opposed to the provision in the bill that allows medicare to negotiate directly with drug makers to bring down drug prices. i simply do not understand how any democrat can oppose something so necessary, so popular, the majority of republican voters support this, unless this is referring to her big donors from big pharma. have you asked her what is going on here? >> i'm going to continue to fight to get this in the bill. people are pushing hard to get it in the bill. and it's exactly as you say. our best allies in this fight are not just the other people in the united states senate. it's people all across this nation who are sick to death, literally, of these drug companies profiteering off the fact that our federal government can't negotiate and that the

prices of prescription drugs have just gone through the roof. we have a chance in this bill in the next few weeks to actually fix that problem. and that's why i'm in this fight. and so are a lot of other people. >> the problem is two of your colleagues don't seem to be in the fight and they seem to be deferring to their donors. they're also opposing higher tax s on the rich. they're joined by the 0.1%. including mark cuban. the billionaire "shark tank" guy who i'm sure you're familiar with. he said this on fox business about you. have a listen. >> in terms of taxing unrealized gains, i think that would be a disaster. honestly, i don't think elizabeth warren knows all what she is talking about when she deals with this. i think she just likes to demonize people that are wealthy. and that's fine. >> what is your response to mark cuban there? >> you know, mark cuban's problem is not that i don't know what i'm talking about. mark cuban's problem is i know exactly what i'm talking about. and what i'm talking about is

mark cuban and his kind need to pay their taxes. and we need to change the laws so they're not written just by the lobbyists for mark cuban and his buddies so that they don't get exploited, so they don't get to take advantage of every one of the loopholes they've built in. we need to change the law. mark cuban needs to pay taxes. giant corporations need to pay taxes. you know what? we do those two things, and then give the irs enough money and the right resources to be able to go after the billionaires and giant corporations that don't pay their money. >> yes. >> and we can pretty much pay for this infrastructure package. >> senator warren, please do stick around. we have much more to discuss with you in just a moment, including former president donald trump, mark zuckerberg and the ongoing threat to our democracy. and also coming up, a reminder for liberals at home that republican senator mitt romney is not your friend. i'll explain why.

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new reporting from abc news as jonathan karl says former president donald trump considered a mind-blowing china-related conspiracy theory in the wake of the 2020 election. it came from jeffrey clark, a doj lawyer with no experience on election law whom trump wanted to make his acting attorney general. have a listen to jonathan karl an "abc this morning." it is bonkers. >> as detailed in betrayal, two sources familiar with clark's actions told me he believed wireless thermostats made in china for google by a company called nest labs might have been used to manipulate voting machines in georgia. the idea was nuts, but it intrigued trump, who asked the director of national intelligence john ratliff to look into it. >> nbc news has not confirmed this reporting, but it's important to note and you'll be shocked to hear there is no evidence to support the china thermostat theory.

we've reached out to jeffrey clark for a comment but have not heard back. but senator elizabeth warren is still with me. senator, thermostats in china changed votes in georgia. just briefly, how do you react to this new reporting and craziness aside, how close were we to a full-blown successful coup back in january? >> this is one more reminder that trump never cared about reality. all trump cared about was there any way that he could piece something together so that he won. and if he could get that going, he was willing to say anything, up is down, in is out, hot is cold, it just didn't matter. and that's what makes all of this so deeply, deeply threatening to our democracy. trump -- trump doesn't play by any rules, except the rule that if trump wins, it was good. and if trump loses, it was bad. it is the same rule that every dictator from the beginning of time has played by.

and that's what trump wants to continue to do. there is one issue for all republicans to consider right now, and that is to stand up and say the election was a fraud. he really won. >> yes. >> and if you can't say that, nothing else matters. >> so during the election campaign and during your own primary campaign, you were very clear-eyed about the threat to democracy, what about democrats needed to do. you pitched a lot of ideas on this. yet here we are nine months into the biden era, nine months after trump is gone, all of this nonsense, rolling coup. and democrats still kind of taking it easy when it comes to protecting our democracy. you had joe manchin who said this last week. have a listen to what joe manchin said. >> the filibuster is the only threat we have to keep democracy alive and well in america. >> how is that not gas lighting from your colleague in the senate? the filibuster is doing the exact opposite. it is blocking federal voting rights legislation. it is the filibuster that could help end democracy come 2024. how can senator manchin say that

with a straight face? >> look, i have been clear about where i am on the filibuster for years now. and i have also been absolutely clear. when i ran for president, i ran in part on saying i will get rid of the filibuster. in fact, i think i may have been either the first or the only one who said that. ultimately, a lot of people have come around. if we want to make the changes we need to make -- >> but not enough, senator. not enough. >> -- starting with protecting our democracy, then we need to get rid of the filibuster. >> so why won't your colleagues come on board for that? do they just not get the threat to democracy? are we living in different universes? >> i can't answer for other people. all i can do is stay in this fight and try to move it forward. i can try to make arguments of rationality. i can try to make arguments from the heart. i can try to make arguments of just plain old political power, but that is all i can do is to stay in this fight, because

understand this -- >> let me ask you -- >> i want what we're going do on the economic front. i really want to see everything we can do. but if we don't protect the vote, if we don't protect the right of every american citizen to vote, to get that vote counted, if we don't outlaw gerrymandering and beat back the influence of dark money, then we are just whistling past the graveyard, because the republicans led by donald trump will destroy our democracy. >> let me jump in there. you say whistling past the graveyard. let me be specific. i asked congresswoman ocasio cortez last sunday. do you believe we are closer to or further away from full-blown fascism in this country than we were on november 2020? >> clearly moved in the direction of a country that is run by a dictator. that's what donald trump wants to be. and i mean, there is just -- it's not possible to deny it. he demands that people embrace a lie.

he encouraged an armed insurrection against our nation, and remember, he didn't win. donald trump does not like democracy because under democracy, he loses. in fact, remember, joe biden won in terms of votes by the biggest margin anyone running for president has ever won by. so donald trump doesn't want democracy. he wants the donald trump path, and that is believe the lies, whatever it takes to put donald trump in power. he doesn't care about the rest of anyone else, just donald trump. >> senator, and something else that's helping trump with the republicans is a packed supreme court. you're one of the first people to call for expansion of the court during the last election. joe biden hasn't really prioritized that. what would you say to justice breyer who is saying he has no plans to retire, he is enjoying himself. would you say like other democrats say it's time for him to stand down so we avoid a repeat of the ruth bader ginsburg situation?

>> look, i am not going to give advice to justice breyer. that is a decision for him to make and not for me to make. i think that our democracy is in serious trouble, and it is in serious trouble because of the supreme court. it is in serious trouble because of the inability of congress to act. and we're just running out of time. we have got to make changes in both places. >> yes. and one last question before i run out of time. a major factor in our democratic debate, facebook we have a whistle-blower this week talking about the damage that facebook has done, the cover-ups. yesterday on msnbc i spoke to former facebook early investor zuckerberg adviser roger mcnamee. saying people should be concerned over price-fixing, human trafficking. he said this.

have a listen. >> there are real reasons for this team at facebook to lawyer up, because they do have legal jeopardy. >> do you agree with roger mcnamee that there is a threat to facebook faces a exist conflict? is it time more criminal investigations? >> look, there are a limited number of tools that we have to deal with a company like facebook. one of them is regulation. one is them enforcement of the antitrust laws to break them up. and one of them is to make sure that we enforce current criminal laws. we need to be pursuing all three fronts at once. facebook is such concentrated power that it is its own political influence. and we have to put a stop to this. and we're running out of time to do it. so i'm for using every tool in the tool box where facebook is concerned. >> good to hear. senator elizabeth warren, we'll have to leave there it. there are so many more things i'd love to talk about. we're out of time. we appreciate you taking time out this sunday evening. thank you.

>> thank you. still to come, a former cia officer -- former cia once captured an alleged bin laden associate abu zubaydah is now calling for his release. he joins me life to explain why. but first, richard lui is here live with the headlines. good evening. >> good evening to you. three star general raymond odierno died friday at the age of 67 after a battle with cancer. he commanded american and coalition forces in iraq and served as the army's chief of staff. the new jersey native served in the army for almost four decades. authorities say no charges will be filed against the passenger who caused an emergency landing at la guardia airport saturday. the american airlines flight stopped on the tarmac yesterday as emergency crews restrained the passenger. witnesses say the passenger had been acting erratically. investigators say there was no threat to the aircraft. more than 80 runners were rescued after a foot of snow fell during an ultramarathon in utah.

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welcome back. it's time now for what i'm calling the 60-second round. start the clock. on thursday 11 republican senators joined every democrat to overcome the filibuster on a debt ceiling extension to prevent the united states from catastrophically defaulting from its debt. but everyone's favorite senator mitt romney was not among those 11 republicans. another remind they're mitt romney is not your friend. yes, he is the only republican senator to vote to convict donald trump, but we to have a higher bar than that. when push comes to shove, romney is just a republican. the john lewis voting rights act, romney wouldn't back it. he talks a good game when it comes to trump and democracy, but when it comes to protecting democracy, he is nowhere to be found. he had to condemn keith olbermann at the same time.

to show he is balanced. the same romney voted to confirm amy coney barrett. days before the election he voted to convict months earlier. so yes, mitt romney isn't a trump stooge, but liberals, any republican willing to defend democracy but is willing to drive the global economy off a cliff to score partisan political points is not your friend. [ buzzer ] trump called my next guest is deep state stiff with a nice accent. you don't want to miss this conversation with former trump adviser fiona hill. bogeys on your six, limu. they need customized car insurance from liberty mutual so they only pay for what they need. woooooooooooooo... we are not getting you a helicopter. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ with voltaren arthritis pain gel my husband's got his moves back. an alternative to pain pills voltaren is the first full prescription strength gel for powerful arthritis pain relief... voltaren the joy of movement

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about what it was like inside the clown car that was the trump white house. in her new book "there is nothing for you here" dr. hill writes about her time in the trump administration as senior director for european and russian affairs on the national security council. she is scathing about trump's infatuation with power, his sheer ignorance of the world around him, and of course his odd relationship with vladimir putin. i spoke with fiona hill earlier this week. fiona hill, thank you so much for joining me on the hill this evening. millions across america watched you in 2019 testify against donald trump in his first impeachment proceedings. you were eloquent. you were scathing. this week he has attacked you as a deep state stiff with a nice accent. so i have to begin by asking, and it's a question i've asked many former trump officials, why did you go work for donald trump in the first place? you were appointed as a senior director for european and russian affairs at the national

security council at the start of 2017 when we already knew how dangerous and unstable and awful he was. >> well, we also knew that the russians had lost a pretty sophisticated influence operation against our democracy, certainly against the presidential compound. and i was deeply concerned, as many of my other colleagues who have been looking at russia for many, many years about the impact that has had and how we were going to push back against it and try to make sure it wasn't going to happen again. i'd already been in the government before. i'd been a national intelligence officer working on exactly these issues under both bush and obama. so under two previous presidents. and when i was approached, i of course knew that something would have to be done. and in the spirit of public service, that's why i went into the administration. and i think just the whole way that the question is phrased is everybody is fixated on the president rather than thinking of what needs to be done in terms of public service when

there is indeed a national security crisis. >> no, that's fair, although some people would define public service in different ways. fixating on the president. the problem is he did dominate a lot of the last five years. he certainly caused a lot of issues in areas you care about, and describing one interaction during your time at the white house, you write, quote, i was sitting next to white house chief of staff john kelly. he leaned over to me and whispered "the problem is the president doesn't know any of this. he doesn't know any history at all, even some of the basics on the u.s.." you came to the administration with a world leading specialist on russia with a ph.d. you worked under bush, under obama. you mentioned another incident where trump mistook you as a secretary, referring to you as darling. i wonder what it's like dealing with somebody in the oval office as ignorant as he was. i mean, we were on the outside watching this. what kind of bizarro world was it sitting in there listening to him speak about world events and world leaders with no authority on it whatsoever? >> well, look, the situation is very sad because it obviously is clearly a problem and the affecting of candidates to be

president in the united states at this particular juncture. he was the wild card candidate out of the whole group of 17 different people obviously made mistakes in their own campaigns when they were running in the republican party. >> yes. >> a lot of people didn't expect him to be president. maybe he didn't himself. there wasn't sufficient preparation. and i think this is actually a lesson that we need to be much more judicious when we're vetting presidential candidates, candidates' parties are vetting their candidates. because, you know, you see the real world consequences when somebody who doesn't really know very much about anything in the world gets into that kind of position. and there were plenty of people around him who were extremely experienced who knew a thing or two about governance. and the problem was by the nature of the presidency right now in the united states, he felt like he didn't need to listen to any of them either. >> yes. and the way he behaved, as i say, was very odd for us all to watch. have a listen to this. >> do you respect putin? >> i do respect him. >> why?

>> well, i respect a lot of people. putin is a killer. a lot of killers, we've got a lot of killers. you think our country is so innocent? >> with the crown prince of saudi arabia, a friend of mine, a man who has really done things and i want to congratulate you. you've done really spectacular job. >> are we close to seeing him mr. kim here at the white house? >> it could happen. he speaks and his people sit up to attention. i want my people to do the same thing. >> my view has been he didn't have the intelligence to do that. he just wanted to be like a foreign dictator. it's something you really zero in on the book. you describe the president as having a sort of autocrat envy. >> i do. look, you just spotted the pattern which anybody who had been paying close attention would have seen it. you also show pictures of him with a the queen. at one point the queen was an autocrat. certainly not anymore.

there is constitutional monarchies, a lot of checks and balances and no real effective political power. but he was really evidently obsessed with people for him, not countries, but people who for him could, as he said himself get their own people, the people that they governed over, ruled over, to sit up to attention. he liked that style of governance. he liked what the king of saudi arabia, or president putin or president xi of china or president erdogan of turkey stood for. in other words, people with raw power in his view who didn't have checks and balances and could also stay in their indefinitely. >> well, come on to the indefinitely. just talking about russia, your own area of expertise. there is an argument that says even if it was for the wrong reasons, it was right for us not to escalate things with russia. trump and his people say even now look, he just wanted to avoid a war, world war iii. you yourself have gone over the years from being someone who was a kind of russian dove. you wrote in 2004 stop blaming putin. maybe we could even work with

him to now of course saying more hawkish things. we can't trust him. he isn't a partner. he can't be negotiated with. fiona, where does that leave us then? we can't go to war over ukraine, or are you suggesting at some point there will be open war between these two nuclear powers, that it's inevitable? because that's a pretty scary prospect. >> look, it's not so helpful to label things hawks, doves. what we're trying to do is trying to figure out how to manage a relationship that's been on a confrontational path. the first quote is during the war in 1990s after a major terrorist attack in beslan in the south part of russia where a whole school was taken hostage. you know, later on, when you kind of look at the relationship with russia just before trump came into power, a lot of our senior military leaders were expressing concern that we were battling towards a confrontation again where there might have been on russia's part a desire to event contemplate using a tactical nuclear weapon.

in the 1980s and 1983 for example, the soviet union and the united states ended up on the brink of a potential nuclear confrontation by misreading the intent in different exercises. this is military exercises. the point is we have to be extremely careful how we manage that relationship. and vladimir putin and trump actually both had a shared interest in finding a way of reaching an arms control agreement. it's just the whole way this was managed around it was of course fairly disastrous. so we have to look past all the rhetoric and all the labeling and just recognize we tried to manage a very volatile relationship that at different points has been on the brink of open conflict. so, you know, i think as you say, we want to be very careful about ending up in an actual war with russia. we avoided the entire cold war from getting into a shooting match with them. >> and you can watch more from my interview with fiona hill

tomorrow night at 7:00 p.m. eastern on the choice on nbc's streaming channel peacock. but next, a story that sounds more like a movie than actual reality. state secrets, secret prisons, and cia torture. stay with us. you have always loved vicks vapors. and now you'll really love new vicks' vapostick. it goes on clear and dries quickly. no mess. just the soothing vicks' vapor for the whole family. introducing new vicks vapostick. as someone who resembles someone else... i appreciate that liberty mutual knows everyone's unique. that's why they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh, yeah. that's the spot. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪

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senior al qaeda leader, was the first prisoner held by the cia to undergo extensive torture. that included being waterboarded 83 times in a single month. on wednesday, the supreme court began hearing the united states versus zubaydah, a case that centered around whether this particular detainee can compel testimony from cia contractors about what happened to him at an agency black site in poland. the u.s. government has argued those details are, quote, state secrets. and yet abu zubaydah's torture has already been confirmed by john kiriakou, the former cia counterterrorism officer who helped capture him. in 2007 he became the first current or former member of the agency to publicly acknowledge its use of torture. and in 2013 under the obama administration, he was imprisoned for leaking classified information. i'm joined now by john kiriakou. john, thank you so much for coming on the show this evening. >> sure. >> the central issue of abu zubaydah's case is this idea

that his torture and detention at a black site in poland is a state secret, even though the facts about his treatment and cia torture are now widely known, partly thanks to you. do you buy that argument? and is it strange for you, the man who caught him, to now be advocating for his release from guantanamo where he has been held without charge since 2006? >> it is funny the twists and turns that life takes, isn't it? you know, so much has been written about abu zubaydah, not just by journalists, but by the people who were involved in his torture, michlin and jesson, the two contract psychologists have written about him. one of them wrote a memoir and they defended torture. three former cia directors wrote a rebuttal to the senate torture report defending the torture. everybody knows that abu zubaydah was tortured. it's not a state secret. but this is what the cia does with some regulate.

they're go into court and just say national security, and oftentimes that's enough to get a case dismissed. >> but you believe abu zubaydah should be released? >> i actually do, as crazy as that might sound. he has been incarcerated, not just incarcerated, but tortured mercilessly at guantanamo and at a series of secret prisons for almost 19 -- i'm sorry, almost 20 years now. we captured him on the night of march 22nd, 2002. so here we are 20 years later, and the man has never been charged with a crime. whether we like him or not, whether we like his politics or not are irrelevant. he has the same constitutional rights that the rest of us have, and if he's as bad a guy as we say he is, then he should be charged with a crime and he should have his day in court. >> we just marked 20 years since 9/11. we didn't talk much on the anniversary about the torture we did after 9/11. the only cia person to go to prison over cia torture i believe was you for exposing it.

>> yes. >> meanwhile, the president who authorized that gruesome torture and still defends waterboarding, george w. bush, is busy being rehabilitated in liberal circles painting pictures and swapping cough drops with michelle obama. >> you are right. as i said, it's crazy the twists and turns that life takes. this is more a reflection on the four years of a donald trump presidency, where so many of us thought that things couldn't get any worse than the neo con administration of george w. bush, and indeed they got a lot worse. so george w. bush hasn't even had to do anything like apologize, for example, to redeem himself. >> so true. so true. of course, there was the problem that no one got prosecuted by the obama administration that came in after bush, except you, which was ridiculous. let me ask you this. you mentioned trump. you tried to got a pardon. you have gone on record about how you made several attempts to get pardoned.

those attempts including paying $50,000 to a former top trump campaign adviser to lobby on your behalf. you even spoke to an associate of rudy giuliani who put a $2 million price tag allegedly on his help to receive a pardon. >> yes. >> you even got a meeting with jared kushner, who asked you to write a one-page statement making a case for the pardon. can you explain to our viewers how he asked you to make the case and divide up the page? >> he was very cold all through the meeting, had is probably not a surprise to many people. this was jared kushner. he asked for my elevator speech. i was with my attorney. we were meeting with jared kushner and with his attorney. i gave my five minute elevator speech about why i deserved a pardon. he cut me off and said, put it all on one page. i want three-quarters of the page to be your story and i want the last quarter of the page to explain how pardoning you helps donald trump get re-elected.

i was a little dejected coming out of that meeting. i produced the paper. actually, my attorney produced it and then we never heard from him again. >> wow. wow. amazing the things these people say. john, you were a cia intelligence official counterterrorism officer. i won't ask whether you paid bribes to people as part of your work. here we are in the united states. with the trump administration, what else do we call that stuff? what has happened in this country? >> the sad truth is that pardons were for sale in that administration. you had the likes of rudy giuliani asking for $2 million, corey lewandowski asking a friend of mine for $1 million. they wanted it wired into their accounts in cash. there were no guarantees. i never saw anything like this. i got to the point where people were asking me if i knew how to get in touch with kim kardashian because she could get people pardons. that's how ridiculous it became.

>> i mean, it was a very, very weird world. i should point out to our viewers, i'm going to be very clear. we don't know what happened to corey lewandowski or rudy giuliani or kim kardashian. but we do know what happened to you. thank you for your story. sorry you had to go through this nonsense. it's crazy we never held the torturers to account. john kiriakou, appreciate your time tonight. >> thank you so much for having me. coming up at the top of the hour, the french ambassador to the united states, he is back. philippe etienne. he is back in washington after the snubbed u.s./australia submarine deal. professor basketball player jeremy lin also joins aymanayma. stick around for that and more. e fresh and delicious taste. plus, superior nutrition. which is now more important than ever. ♪♪

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thank you for watching. we will be right back here next sunday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. catch me monday through thursday at 7:00 p.m. eastern on nbc streaming channel peacock. now it's time to hand it over to ayman mohyeldin. before i go, your first guest tonight is the french ambassador to the united states. i saw this story the other day that a far right figure is expected to run for president there and has called for a ban on foreign sounding and muslim names. like muhammad. so where would that leaf muslim immigrants called, i don't know, mehdi and ayman if we lived in france? >> listen, that's a really good

question. first of all, let's be very clear, and the french people you speak to will tell you he has a very long shot at winning. but i think it's an indication, and i'll certainly ask this to the ambassador, it's an indication of just the politics of france right now and the kind of extremism that is emerging and this kind of normalization if you will of islamophobia. i think it's a very valid point to even raise that question. why somebody with that vice president viewpoint can make it to the upper echelons. of the political system in terms of running as a presidential candidate. we will see. stick around. i will ask that. what do you think? >> the problem i have is a lot of french people tell me, we are a secular country. it's about religion. islam should be criticized. but when you go after people's names, it's xenophobia and >>. >> the irony is some people have pointed out his name is eric, which is not a very french name. thank you very much, my friend. good to see you. great interview there with

senator warren. good evening. welcome to ayman. after ten months in office, where does biden's administration stand on the world stage, and how has that snubbed u.s./australia submarine deal impacted foreign relations? i'll take you inside biden's full-court press with philippe etienne, the french ambassador to the u.s. plus, spacex approaching its moment of reckoning or just a rough patch? i'll ask tristan harris. and if you are feeling depressed or anxious, you are not alone on this world mental health day. i'm joined by nba champion and unicef ambassador jeremy lin, who is raising awareness of mental health issues around the world. aye i'm ayman mohyeldin. let's get started. fresh details today on the chaos of the trump administration as new reporting highlights the

lunacy that took place within the office. trump boasted about the crowds who showed up for the january 6 insurrection. that's according to multiple sources who were in contact with by nbc news. the riot, what's aide reported carl that trump had to re-record that infamous video posted to twitter. you know, the one where he said to the rioters, we love you. because quote in the rejected earlier version that trump recorded, he neglected to actually tell the supporter to leave the capital. and then there's this really bogus theory. >> as detailed in betrayal, two sources from clark's actions told me that he believed that wireless thermostats made in china from google, by a company called next labs, might have been used to manipulate voting machines in georgia. the idea was nuts, but it