for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn? it's 4:00 in new york. this time, everything is different. that's the powerful message today from the january 6th select committee member congressman adam schiff. the democratically controlled congress under an independently led justice department led by merritt garland.

you may remember how they were able to dodge subpoenas under the last administration under bill barr. >> the republicans would not press these subpoenas and they knew the witnesses knew that they had an attorney general in bill barr who would never hold them in contempt. would never prosecute them for violating the law because after all, bill barr had been held in contempt. now we have a justice department that is independent. that no one is above the law. if witnesses do not show up, we will hold them in contempt, vote them in contempt in the house and confer them for prosecution. and that is i think, that will be a sign that our democracy is recovering. that the justice department is upholding the principle that no one is above the law. >> it's a stern warning to several of donald trump's allies just ahead of a subpoena deadline to testify before the january 6th committee.

"washington post" today reports this, quote, with just two days to go until the first ex-adviser is scheduled to appear, it is unclear whether any of them will show up. meadows and patel are scheduled to provide testimony on october 15th and 14th respectively. according to a september 23rd letter. and despite trump's demands that his former allies not comply, the committee confirmed that two former aides are engaging with them and quote, if they don't know, the chair and ranking member say they will rapidly consider criminal contempt of congress, which to say the least, would dramatically exkai late things. it is worth noting that steve bannon, another witness, has said he is not cooperating. so far, the committee is mum on how it will respond to him. meanwhile, a new book out from

jonathan carl at abc news is giving us a new look at donald trump's actions and mindset on january 6th. abc news reports quote, the former president likely saw, he boasted at the size of the crowd and argued with aides who wanted him to tell his supporters to stop rioting. that's according to his sources. two hours after the riots started, trump acquiesces to recording a video statement. in the message posted to twitter, he asked his supporters to go home, but also praised them. remember, quote, we love you. you are special. trump said in that video. present for the recording said this, quote, trump had to tape the message several times before they thought he got it right. in earlier investigations, he didn't tell supporters to leave the capitol. even as we learn more and more about the ex-president's role and conduct and mindset during the gravest attack on the u.s. capitol in centuries,

congressman schiff is warning today his biggest fear, concern, is the ongoing threat donald trump poses to our democracy. >> as a member of the january 6th select committee, i have to acknowledge there could be another violent attack on the capitol, but the greater danger to the country is what's going on around the nation. people pushing the former president's big lie about the election. ushering in a whole new slate of laws to strip independent elections officials of their duties and give them over to partisan boards and legislatures. the former president rather out there campaigning for secretaries who the president badgered into finding votes that didn't exist, but who had the courage to say no, he's trying to install people who will find those nonexistent votes and that's how democracies come to an end. so we are at a real point of fragility right now. >> how democracies come to an

end is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. fortunately for us, i'll start with you. things are about to get serious with the select committee investigating the insurrection. criminal referrals were not a feature of previous criminal investigations into donald trump. we should explain why. because it's a referral to the justice department and without a justice department that agrees that the rule of law and the role of congress in oversight is to be upheld. there's no point. all that has changed. talk about how this could play out. >> it's a real sort of

inflection point for where this investigation is gone. january 6th happened and these lawmakers have said they are pledging to figure out exactly what happened. you now see aides to former president trump not to comply with these subpoenas. by the end of the week, we'll know exactly what sort of legal issues these aides may have if they don't comply. and the people we're talking about, to remind people, it's the former chief of staff. it's the former chief staff for the president. people who knew what president trump was saying and doing on january 6th. these are people who can take us beyond just him watching tv, which was very well-known. i reported on it from this lawn the day it was happening on january 6th. there are real questions about who was being called, how did this get financed? how bad did people in the white house think this was going the get? there are real questions here. lawmakers say they're going to be vigorous at getting these officials, former aides into congress to testify. so i also am hearing there's a

possible threat of criminal charges here. the doj is going to be very involved in trying to make sure these aides are understanding. this is really not just an ask by congress, but a demand by congress for them to present themselves. >> i mean, phil rucker, what is the play here if you're mark meadows? why would you defy a congressional subpoena? i should say he's one along with kash patel who's also engaging is the word that's been used to describe their communications with the committee. what's the plan to sort of stone wall this committee without donald trump around to pardon them? >> when "washington post" reports that they are engaging with the committee, that does not mean they are supplying testimony or the documentation that's been requested necessarily. it could mean something as simple as they responded to the letter that they had received it

and will write back later. that could be engaging. so we don't know how serious the engagement is, but the play by these officials seems to be that they're afraid of crossing the former president. their boss. they want to stay in trump's good graces. he has made it clear he doesn't want them cooperating with this committee. he doesn't want them speaking to investigators, sharing documentation or their accounts of what they experienced that day at the president's side so, that appears to be why they're stone walling. of course, bannon is taking it further by saying he won't even communicate with the committee. we're not sure whether meadows and patel, if they're engaging with this committee, if it's going the amount to anything or if we're going to end up in a protracted legal battle that could take months or years before the committee can get the information it wants from these individuals. >> i guess the good news for the committee is they got time. because mccarthy blew up the

plan to have a bipartisan commission, there's no countdown. they've got time. they can wait. but what i don't understand is if you go to whacko land, and you spend more time there than i do, but if the insurrection was heroic why not loudly and proudly testify before the january 6 committee? >> oh, boy, brace yourself. it's hard to get inside the warped mind of these individuals that decided to stick with donald trump after he tried to steal the election and all that. but i'll tell you this. they're in this battle in their own minds, this war with the left, with the elites and giving them an inch is losing, giving up, quitting. the people working for donald trump who want to be engaged in this war with the left, they don't want to, you know, brag

about what happened on january 6th. they know deep down that the actions of the individuals that stormed the capitol is wrong. they don't want to be the ones who are wearing pro insurrectionism as a badge of honor. so they're participating in this one game on one hand. on the other hand, they're scared to death of the orange former guy getting mad. just let's working this out for a second. who wants to be the first person in the trump administration that says i'm going to testify. that person would have to be very confident that a, they are in the right and b, they could run circles around adam schiff and liz cheney. i don't think they're confident they can do that. so they're deeply afraid of being the first mover. getting angry calls from you know the lounge at bed minister and being on the bad side of conservative media. getting all the harassment in their various social media

feeds. whether they're on gab or whatever they're on these days. i don't know that any of them are going to do it. i'm hopeful that schiff is not just an empty threat on "morning joe" this morning, that he's going to follow up on this and there will be criminal referrals. i suspect that's going to be the only way to get it done if you just consider what is possibly going through the heads of these former trump officials. >> i don't totally buy that, tim miller. i understand from former justice department officials that mike flynn flipped before you could sit down and close the door. they're really more afraid of donald trump's, he can't even tweet anymore. his misses from the carrier pigeon than going to jail? >> again, that's why a serious threat of criminal prosecution, of criminal referral is necessary. i do agree with you. if you get them to a moment where they really feel like there's a criminal threat here, they'll sing just like flynn

did. they'll flip in a second. except for bannon who already spent a little bit of time in the clink. none of these guys want to go to the other side. and so i do agree. if the threat is real, they will flip. as long as they think it might be a bluff. as long as they've got lawyers, you know, whatever hack lawyers in their ears telling them they got this executive privilege, they're fine as long as they all stick together, i think they'll at least try to kick the can as long as they can. >> i don't disagree with you about kicking the can and the shenanigans and i take your point about the iron fist. i want to turn to john carl's reporting which builds on the reporting she did from the lawn. reporting that phil rucker did in their book and phil and others at "the washington post" did. i still want to read it and

contextualize it with what you reported at the time and understand this sort of really, there's a lot of dimensionality. trump was cheering the insurrection. it is beyond dispute. from sources inside the house. you have also described trump trying to, people trying to talk pence into doing the wrong thing. the woodward costa book has pence calling quyale. it seems to give us new details about the video, which was pathetic at the time. we learned the other takes were first. you first. tell me about the whole picture of trump's conduct that day? >> sort of what the committee is trying to get at, the picture that's becoming clearer and clearer and was clear on that day, and that is that president trump was watching the january 6 capitol attack an he was enjoying parts of it.

he was watching tv and not alarmed in the way that lawmakers were even though you had mike pence being evacuated and running for his life. even though you had nancy pelosi running for their life and other people scared they were going to be murdered by these trump supporters. my sources told me that kevin mccarthy called the president and said you need to do something. you need to be acting out more. you need to be speaking out against this and telling people to go home. now jonathan carl has exact words that mccarthy told president trump, but at the time, i was told mccarthy was very angry with the president. then we get to the point to the president having to be dragged into the video statement. it was clear he released it. think about the fact that the president at the end o f that speech when we're talking about people who had broken into the capitol, this is after people were dead, the president then goes on to say you are very

special. that will video tells you that president trump didn't want to say those words. what john carl is doing and phil rucker and bob costa and woodward did is just peeling back the layers. we want to know exactly, and the american people want to know, what exactly was going on in the white house. past the tv watching. and what actions could the president have taken to stop this earlier? >> phil, that seems to be just to pull all this together. the real rumble is going to be around how hard the committee members fight to hear from kevin mccarthy. i mean, as you reported, as yammish reported, as it came up during the impeachment trial. the contents of the call are in dispute. i wonder if it makes it impossible for mccarthy not to be the next person subpoenaed.

>> we should keep in mind the call from mccarthy was only a couple of minutes in a multihour span when the capitol was under siege by these violent rioters. when the nation was under attack and the commander in chief did nothing. there were multiple hours when trump was in the white house watching tv, having untold numbers of phone conversations with different people. talking to advisers in and out of the oval office and despite all of the rigorous reporting to date, we still don't have a complete picture of what trump was saying and doing and proposing and how he was reacting minute by minute in that period of time and i suspect that's one of the key things that the committee, the congressional committee is going to try to get to the bottom of. talking to somebody like mark meadows who was at the president's side throughout that day and would have heard and witnessed a lot of this behavior that in our reporting has been described as abhorrent. the commander in chief to the

country. >> so the abhorrent president is now, i'm not going to read it, but i'll explain it. attacking adam schiff. again, not on twitter because he's not allowed to play there, but in a statement, calling him shifty schiff and all sort of other things. schiff said thank you for the shoutout, mr. former president. as for your statement that the attack on the capitol would never have happened if the people in charge would have done their job. you realize you were in charge january 6th, right? just checking. this seems to be the problem for trump trying to weaponize and rewrite the insurrection. mike pence was the target of the insurrectionist who wanted to quote hang mike pence and his conduct has been reported out. it's, if it's not fully known, it is very notable.

>> no doubt. look, for people in the reality based community, the facts of the case -- >> we need t-shirts. >> right. like they're not in dispute. that he was in charge that day. that it was him that stoked the mob. that he was cheering them on. the thing that's concerning about all this is the point that trump was making, oh, we should have had more security guards, that was nancy pelosi's fault. that is now being mainstreamed even by the republicans who at the time were pointing the finger at trump. like kevin mccarthy and john cornyn and others. now they say if you look at the event with chuck grassley in

iowa. that's the kind of argument they're putting forth and the republican voters are going along with this. the question is the concerning thing is not like whether we're going to figure out what the reality is. we know what the reality is. the question is can enough information be put forth by this commission to crack the mitch mcconnells of the world. you know, the people that were on the brink of cracking on january 6th so that this man who brought our democracy to the brink can be held accountable. i'm not optimistic about that, frankly. as we look over the last nine months, i'm discouraged that crack is going to happen. it's incumbent of the committee to put forth all of the administration, excuse me, possible, in order to make the case. >> yeah, in more sort of men with no spine news, we have this from the hill.

the piece, quote, several republican senators who requested, spoke anonymously to discuss trump frankly. hard to read that outloud without laughing. they don't want to see trump return as the party's standard bearer. tweeting that basically this is the same line from 2015. and i guess to tim's point, there aren't any more at-bats. this is it. january 6th select committee and its appetite for forcing subpoenas, this is it. this is the last chance to get the cowards out of the closet and say i knew you incited the insurrection all the time. it was a mean tweet, remember? this is the last chance to get it out there and have any chance of resetting this slide toward making it normal, to be more afraid of a deep platform giant

electoral loser than losing our democracy. this is it. >> this is it. but at the heart of this is politics and fear. you have a lot of people, gop men in particular, that -- gop elected official, rather, who are fearful of president trump. who are scared of him. of dealing with his eyre of having someone take their jobs as elected officials. look no farther than senator grassley who even though he voted to acquit president trump said at the time that his behavior was aggressive. that it was irresponsible. that he pushed. he was talking about president trump, that he pushed mike pence to do unconstitutional things. that was chuck grassley in february then this weekend, grassley was on the stage with president trump smiling, saying he was going to take his endorsement for his eighth term in the senate. that tells you everything you need to know about the sort of spine of the gop. the gop right now is a party that is fearful of trump. it's not surprising that senate republicans don't want to see him be president again because

it's the same thing that's happening when he was president. you had senators who would whisper of course i can't stand him, this is ridiculous, but they would get in front of cameras and say yes, this is what we believe and we have his back and we need to continue to support him. so what you have here is really just a political party that is hostage to the alternate reality of president trump. >> and they're willing hostages. they bought their own tickets and locked themselves in. thank you so much. when we come back, more on the impending showdown between the january 6th select committee and republicans on the hill. we'll talk with one house member about the looming next steps of likely investigating gop colleagues. plus, we'll ask about the state of play for president biden's agenda and if predictions about it being derailed are overblown. plus, the battle over reproductive rights in this country continues. the biden administration warning

that if texas has its way, no constitutional right is safe from what he calls state sanctioned sabotage. where the fight is at this hour, coming up. and later, scandal in the nfl involving one of the league's biggest personalities. coach john gruden is out after making racist and sexist comments after e-mails surfaced. al all those stories and more after a quick break. don't go anywhere. we're just getting started. k br. don't go anywhere. we're just getting started ♪girl, i don't know, i don't know,♪ ♪i don't know why i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪oh no, babe girl, if i could only make you see♪ ♪and make you understand♪ get a dozen double crunch shrimp for $1 with any steak entrée. only at applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood.

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michael myers is the essence of evil. the boogeyman... needs to die. if you track michael's victims, it's a straight line to michael's childhood home. [ screaming ] tonight my family will kill him. [ gasps ] [ screaming ]

we expect people to fulfill their lawful duties. if there are legitimate questions that are raised, we'll answer them, respond to them, but we want to make sure we provide this information to the american people and they're in the position to know what the president was doing, what the response was like, why we weren't better prepared and the role of the administration in this attack on the u.s. capitol. >> that was democratic congressman and member of the january 6th select committee, adam schiff, reiterating that the committee is prepared to do whatever it takes to get those four witnesses and others to testify. not only is the committee heading towards a showdown with the disgraced ex-president and those four aides, but looming over the entire investigation is another issue. the fact that many of the committee members on colleagues are likely to become really important witnesses. politico puts it this way. quote, as congressional investigators accelerate their

probe of donald trump's 2020 election challenges, one thing is clear. all roads run through a handful of their gop colleagues and getting those republicans to testify could get ugly. one of those republicans, house gop leader, kevin mccarthy, who seems so daunted, so afraid of testifying that he's now falsely claiming that congress can't subpoena his phone records. watch. >> this is a select committee that is not a bipartisan committee. for the first time in history, nancy pelosi picked who could be on this committee. and what they're trying to do, they're missing the two main points. why were we so ill prepared on january 6th and how do we make sure we'll never be in this position again? it's purely politics and congress does not have the right to go after my or your phone number records and the supreme court has made this ruling. it's interesting about how far they want to control and where they want to go. >> before we go any further, that's not true. this is a bipartisan committee.

none other than liz cheney is it co-chair and republican congressman adam kinzinger sits on it as well. you see the disinformation and propaganda being laid brick by brick by brick seemingly to protect all the members name checked by donald trump himself. why? >> well, that's a good question. if you had nothing to hide, why wouldn't you volunteer to come testify? i would. it does make you wonder, what is it you're protecting? and but having said that, this isn't just any investigation this is about the attempt to subvert the actual foundation of democracy itself. the counting of ballots to

declare the next president and vice president of the united states. and people died in the violent attempt incited by the president and some of his ak lights to prevent it. noncooperation with that boggles the mind and raises serious questions about patriotism and commitment to the oath we took as members of the congress to uphold the constitution. >> some of the most vocal proponents for hearing from kevin mccarthy are the republicans on the committee. i want to ask you about what we've learned from other congressional investigations, the senate judiciary committee investigation has some information about some of trump's accomplices. i want to read this from that report. trump's efforts to enlist doj and its leadership in its effort to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election were aided by -- three of these

allies and their connections to january 6th are particularly notable. u.s. representatives scott perry, pennsylvania state senator, doug masteriano and kleat mitchell. these were to better place trump's efforts in his effort to overturn the presidential election. how vital this is an investigative sort of principle. is it to sort of run down all the accomplices to what was clearly a white paper, black and white, the eastman memo laid out which states were to be targeted we have the call, some of that being put into motion. just talk about the importance of the role of trump's republican allies. i think it's critical to get to the bottom of what happened and to do that, we've got to interview and get testimony from all the key players.

there are serious questions that had been raised about some members of congress and possible collusion with those who were organizing the mob. even days and weeks before the actual event of january 6th. hopefully that none of that pans out. hopefully it's innocent. but we don't know that. and it is the charge of the special commission on january 6th to know that and therefore, we need their cooperation or to compel their testimony if necessary. so that we have a full and thorough investigation. if there was collusion between actual members of congress and the mob, those folks need to be exposed and brought to justice. >> sound like you're talking

about criminal referrals? >> absolutely. if you are part of a violent ins reduction and you were part of the organizing of it, you know, i think you're criminally liable and should be held to account. absolutely. >> tell me what the fight looks like because because it's difficult to call the republican conduct competent because it is to malevolent, but it has been effective. they have brainwashed the republican base to think the ins insurrection is good. ashli is a martyr. how do you barrel through that and make sure the committee functions as it is to function with the ability to enforce congressional subpoenas? >> there's a certain tragic irony here, nicole. and i was listening to your earlier report. what's ironic if they're that

afraid of trump, the best way to defang him and begin to bring back your rank and file from the enthrallment of the trump cult is in fact to call him out. not to cower in the closet. that's how joe mccarthy was defanged when prominent republicans such as margaret chase smith of maine at the time called him out. the lawyer at the army hearings calling him out saying do you have no shame. all of a sudden, people took a second look at mccarthy and he faded from the scene. so republicans need to understand that you can't enable his behavior. you have to call it out. yes, you may take some grief for that initially, but at the end of the day, that's the only way to disenthrall your base from donald trump. >> but if a deadly insurrection

whose mission was to hang, murder mike pence, then get them to stop being cowards, what will? you really think a, a, a congressional investigation could break the fever? >> i don't know that one investigation is going to break this fever. in some ways, trump is a unique phenomenon and not a good one in the united states and the enabling and rationalization among republicans i think is tragic for america. in some ways, january 6th was not the culmination of something ugly. it was the commencement of something that was ugly. and that's what we have to deal with and the fight here and we can't put too fine a point on it is about the future of democracy in america. that is what we're fighting for and frankly, i was listening earlier and i think we shouldn't tiptoe around it. donald trump watched television on that day, january 6th,

because he enjoyed what he saw. it was feeding his ego. these people were responding to his rhetorical call for them to show up on january 6th and do something to stop the steal and they activated his rhetoric and he took great pleasure in that reportedly when he was watching on television in the white house. >> in his own words, he watched it and had three attempts to record a message and when he disseminated was quote, i love you. we love you. you are very special. so you're right. there's some great -- but in his own words, he made it perfectly clear what he thought about the insurrectionists whose plan was to kill mike pence that day. always great to talk to you. if not a little bleak. >> likewise. >> thank you so much. next, will the supreme court again weigh in on the controversial texas abortion ban. the justice department signaling that the state's form of

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it was a total game changer. learn more about the condition at factsonhand.com ooh, that's really cool! wow! this is awesome. what we got here is the weekender box. it's a cocktail aging kit, i think that's really, really cool. drop point blade with 256 layers of forged steel. that's nuts! i just love that every time we open a box from bespoke, we're most likely getting something from a small brand. bespoke post sends you awesome boxes every month and i love it. head to bespokepost.com and get a free gift with your first box when you enter code free. women in kentucky controlling their own health may soon be curtailed. today during oral arguments before the supreme court including liberal justice steven

bryer seeming to side with daniel cameron in his quest to defend a state law that would functionally ban abortions in kentucky after 15 weeks. an official opinion in the case is not expected until next year, but it's just one of many cases the court will hear this year though it reshaped the rights of women in this country. late last night, the department of justice once again urged courts to intervene and suspend texas' ban there. quote, if texas' scheme is permissible, no constitutional right is safe from state sanctioned sabotage of this kind. joining our coverage, joyce vance, msnbc legal analyst. i want to read a little bit more, joyce, from the justice department's filing. this is something i've been asking about for weeks. they write, quote, a state might

ban the possession of all handguns in the home, prohibit independent corporate campaign advertising and deputize citizens to seek bounties for each firearm. partisans of one stripe or another might cheer these outcomes, but they should horrify anyone committed to the principle this that diverse nation is bound by one institution. what do you think of that? >> doj is taking a strong stand here in giving the supreme court who will ultimately decide this case every possible opportunity to reconsider their earlier decision to permit the law to go into effect. the point they're making here is that we're not a country with one set of rules that apply to every kind of case except abortion and a separate form of juris prudent in abortion cases. we are not a country that's meant to permit village lan.

doj throws down the gauntlet with this filing saying you might like what happens in texas. you may like it a lot less when for instance the state of vermont or the state of new york decides to collect bounties using vigilantes for people who own guns or exercise other rights that conservatives favor. in other words, one country, one set of rules, one law that everyone has to follow. texas can't get around it when it comes to abortion and that's the decision that doj sets up for the supreme court to ultimately have to make. >> why aren't there cameras in the supreme court, joyce vance? >> you know, there should be cameras in the supreme court, nicole. this is an argument that i've made time and time again, but historically, federal courts have rejected the use of cameras saying they worry that judge, lawyers will have to grand stand for the cameras as opposed to

getting around to the serious business of practicing law. but we know having cameras in the courtroom only makes our justice system more accessible to citizens. let's people see the proceedings and make up their own mind. so hopefully the supreme court, which has now moved to live streaming its oral arguments, that's something new this term. sort of a carryover from the pandemic. hopefully this part of a push to open up the federal courts to cameras. i ask because we should all be able to see, we should see their faces. they're sharing their inner monologues with us. we know the supreme court justices are triggered by scrutiny and criticism by the shadow docket to outlaw 85% of all abortions in texas and we should see their reaction to stuff like this. this is what planned parenthood filed. they gave examples of what's

happening to women in texas now, today, because of the decision by the united states supreme court through their shadow docket, which despite joyce explaining it to me no fewer than 11 times, i barely understand. bg works two jobs. 55 to 60 hours weekly. she'll soon graduate from college and has a job offer in engineering, which she sees as a path out of poverty. she said she's not emotionally or financially prepared to f a child because she's a primary provider. one more. a 13-year-old patient had to get a judicial bypass before scheduling an abortion. activity was detected at six weeks, three days. she can't leave texas without her parents knowing because she can't drive. one more. lo in houston spoke of a 12-year-old patient who came in with her mom, a single working mom with other children. the mom said they could not travel out of state. they had barely made it to the

texas health center. the 12-year-old said mom, it was an accident. why are they making me keep it? we should see what this real world consequence of the 85% of all abortions in texas being banned, if they're going to decide what they're going to decide, elections should have consequences, but we should be able to see it. >> this is why president biden has called texas' law almost un-american. he said it creates a vigilante system. there's a few times i've been woking unin the middle of the night by sources. that's what happened when this texas law happened. i was sort of shaken awake by democratic women who were scared by the future of this country because they saw this texas abortion law ripping away the rights of women and putting women in danger. there are people who want to

argue about whether abortion is right or not, but the heart of the stories you just mentioned were about women who need to make decisions they feel like they want to make for their own bodies. you hear from democrats that this real sense of democrats and the doj need to come up with the strategy to stop this. but let's remember that this is really the consequence of a decades long fight on the right to attack the right of women to have abortions and i think what you see here is sort of balancing of whether or not the conservatives even if they wanted this to be sort of what the end result was, their bound seeing what this means in the real life of women, which is why i think you don't see a lot of republicans going on tv talking about it, because they realize this might have gone too far. >> all polling suggests it's gone too far even for republicans. joyce vance -- thank you for spending time with us on this. reporting in "the wall street journal" today, trump is close to selling his hotel in

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♪ ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ the "wall street journal" is today reporting that the former president's family business is in advanced talks to sell the rights to his high end washington, d.c. hotel in a deal that could bring in more than

$370 million. a miami-based investment firm is in talks to take over the lease and plan to take trump's name off the building, just like several other of the former president's properties have done in the years since being president. the house oversight committee has been investigating the financial details of the hotel and the potential conflicts of interest while the ex-president was in office. the committee found trump reported his hotel in downtown d.c. brought in $150 million in income while he served in the white house, but the hotel incurred more than $70 million in losses. let's bring in donny deutsch, host of the podcast, "on brand," what's the deal with the hotel? was it a loser? was it bad timing? was it mismanaged? explain. >> it was a loser. i mean, he put a lot into the renovations there, and you know, you have to think about it that there are, once you put that trump name on something, there's going to be tremendous obvious

polarization. so he's taking it off the buildings in new york. what he did to subsidize it, he probably had the equivalent of 3 1/2 million dollars in revenue from foreign countries staying here, obviously the emoluments clauses. this is indicative of the trump branding. what's happened to it. nobody's going to come in and get the name on it. in vegas this weekend, by the fight, i drove by the trump casino and thought to myself, a thousand people are going to walk by, you have something that automatically, 500 of them are going to hold their nose at. there aren't too many businesses that can survive when you have a complete stench to half of your audience. >> and based on the election outcome, it's a little more than half. you mentioned the building that his name has been scraping off. the ice skating rinks, six residential buildings on the upper west side of new york

city. st. regis hotel in toronto, jw marriott in panama city, the dominic hotel and new york city. what's the future of the company if no one can publicly be branded as trump without turning off 50% and then some of the consumers. >> well, you know, there's -- basically trump has been a licensing company where they make their profits is putting their name on it and take their 5% gig. that game is over. it's very very clear. an interesting thing today that happened. forbes 400 came out with the list. trump is not on it. you know it's a bad day for donald trump. he has been taken off the forbes list. a list worth 2 1/2 billion dollars. he has a billion three debt coming in the next few years. this organization is going to have to really reevaluate itself because his basic premise, his reason to be is highly a very very precarious situation now. >> and i guess, donny, as folks who care about the future of the country, there's bad news there,

too. it's what makes his ongoing insurrection his desperation to be relevant in politics all the more urgent for him. is it fair to say that his sort of time as a business person is, you know, he's on his way down? >> yeah, look, he was on his way down dramatically before the apprentice. the apprentice created this illusion. and he was dead in the water. he couldn't borrow money. his business was going south. he hasn't been someone seen as legitimate in the business world since 2003, 2004, he has had the heroin of tv and politics, he's not going back. even if his business was fertile, this is oxygen to him. this is his heroin. that's something we have to factor into every future kind of analysis. >> what do you think the impact of all the legal peril is on the businesses? >> you know, it depends if he's ever convicted, indicted, he

can't borrow money anymore. you can't borrow money anymore, game over in the real estate business. that's the life blood of his credit. there's a dog in the background. >> let's see. >> okay. >> oh, i see. i see. >> who's that. >> hi, cocoa. >> i want to send everybody to nicole's instagram because she posted the cutest picture of her dog, very very cute. i love it. >> i'll bring poppy the puppy to work and her big sister honey. they're very cute. donny deutsch, cocoa looks like she has a good life. she's got a lot more room. >> let's see, cocoa's okay. cocoa left. come here. hold on one second. >> let's see you with the dog. >> cocoa's very cute. a yorky. >> it's my kids. i have big dogs also but takes a real man to hold a dog like this, you know.

>> i bet your big dogs, roaming around the upper east side. always fun to talk to you. thank you for bringing your dog. >> love seeing you my darling. hopefully we'll find some more dogs for you. we have a quick break. we'll be right back. you. we have a quick break. we'll be right back. hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ do you take aspirin? plain aspirin could be hurting your stomach. new vazalore is the first liquid-filled aspirin capsule clinically shown to cause fewer ulcers than plain aspirin. vazalore is designed to help protect... releasing aspirin after it leaves your stomach... where it is absorbed to give you the benefits

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we have seen growing evidence that the dangers to our country can come not only across borders but from violence that gathers within. there is little cultural overlap between violent extremists abroad, and violent extremists at home.

but then there's disdainful pluralism in their disregard for human life. in their determination to defile national symbols, they are children of the same foul spirit and it is our continuing duty to confront them. >> again, everyone, it's 5:00 in the new york. the number of republicans alarmed by the slow moving insurrection brought by those in their own party may be few. for those few, the feelings of consequence and urgency and mistakes are undeniable. you heard a former republican standard bearer equating the threat we face from domestic violent extremists today, many of whom we know from law enforcement are motivated by political grievances, like stop the steal, to the threat posed by the foreign terrorists who attacked our country on 9/11. former president bush's mike garrison shares his bosses level

of concern. he writes in a piece in the "washington post," paints a fatalistic picture, if donald trump is reelected and republicans win back control of congress. it is clear that the same lawless reckless man has a perfectly realistic path back to power. the gop is a garbage of the corrupt, seditious and their enablers. if trump returns to the presidency, many of the past constraints on his power would be purposely loosened, many of the professionals and patriots who opposed him in his final days have been weeded out long before. there is no reason trump would not try to solidify personal power over military and over federal law enforcement units to employ a bully's club in terms of civil disorder. there is no reason he would refrain from using federal resources to harass political opponents, undermine freedom of

the press and change the outcomes of the election. these are previously stated goals. what attitudes and actions does this require of us. any action must begin with a sober recognition. catastrophe is in the front room. the weather forecast includes the apocalypse. former republican max boot seems to agree, but even more plainly, he will be voting in the next election with one goal in mind, to save our democracy. there's only one party who does not pose a threat to our democracy. to prevent a successful coup in 2024, it is imperative to elect democrats at every level of government in 2021 to 202 2rks as well as the mouse and senate. democrats should break a filibuster and pass voting rights legislation. that would help ensure free elections. even if that does not happen and republicans rig the rules, small d democrats can still prevail. turning out in mass to support for big d democrats. he answered the question to all

americans quote it doesn't matter if you think the build back better bill is too small or too big, what matters now is preserving our democracy. we must not get distracted by relatively minor policy quibbles that we lose stake in 2021, 2022, 2023. the only party on the side of democracy, we start with some of our favorite reporters and friends. mark, also joining us, msnbc contributor, and former congresswoman, donna evers, and eddie gladsback, msnbc contributor. i donna, i start with you. i looked for democrats saying these things and i found republicans saying these things and i wonder who is the democratic party's chief spokesperson for the urgency of the moment and the need to save our democracy? >> we have talked about this before but i do think that we

need to start as democrats as big d democrats really not just feeling the urgency but acting on the urgency of this moment. i am concerned about our little d democracy, and i think that both gurson and boot put it so plainly that it really is at sake, and frankly, it's not just about, you know, are you spending this or spending that. look, i want all of the build back better plans to pass, but i think that democracy is at stake, and i think that we need to start feeling that urgency by acting aggressively to do things like remove the filibuster, strengthen voting rights, making sure that we're working on getting the highest turnout possible in this next election because all holes are off when it comes to donald trump. he does, i think, i share the view that there is a pathway for

him. even if it's 40% of the republican party that is dug in with donald trump, it is a solid 40%. and all of the rest of it can be spread out over a dozen candidates and donald trump could march himself right into the white house, and so we got to get serious about this. >> eddie, you and donna and i are of the same mind on this. we talk about this all the time. there hasn't been a speech on voting rights from the president of the united states, a beautiful and powerful speech, but one speech, one day, one news cycle in philadelphia many weeks ago now. who is -- i am of the belief, i have very little political optimism, but i'm of the belief that there are some americans who will follow someone who leads them towards the preservation of democracy, but they're not going to march there themselves. they don't know where to go, and i love mike and max but they can't lead the democratic party in this direction: why aren't they seizing this issue, this

existential threat to our democracy, and leading people there. >> i think it has a lot to do with the logic of our politics. i tweeted earlier today about kind of the consultant class. there's a sense in which at least from my vantage point, you guys know this better than i do, that the politics seem to suggest that we must not alienate those voters who are in between the insurrectionists and max boot, and others, right. those voters who are kind of in between, we cannot alienate them, and so there's this ongoing effort not to ignite, right, or inflame the situation. and in some ways the silence, the calmness, the traditional politics as usual is actually throwing kindling on the fire.

one wonders if we are mature enough to salvage our democracy because it seems to me there's too many among us who think that going back to business as usual is a sufficient response to the crisis we face. >> exactly. there is no business as usual to go back to. and donald trump is the spark. it is his fault. it's not the fault of anyone in the democrat's party. democrats doing nothing is the santa ana winds that keeps it blowing and spreading, but i wonder if you think they see that. >> i hope. some do. but see, part of this has to do with a kind of honest assessment of the environment of our politics more generally. so we're talking about the republican parties. when i hear republicans describing trumpist, i think -- i hear people who know exactly who these people are because they have been dealing with them for 40 years. they have been mobilizing them

within their ranks for 40 years. they know what they're capable of and they're telling us what they know intimately. i know that democrats like manchin and sinema, they sound familiar. this is the third wave. these are these new democrats that came into existence, who came into being trying in some ways to figure out how to deal with reaganism, how to respond to it in a way that would be sufficient. they are still tethered to the basic assumptions of a political order that has revealed itself in my view to be bankrupt. these are various elements of the crisis we face, and some of those elements are actually dampening the cry, the five alarm, the five fire alarm that we are currently in, it seems to me. i don't know if that made sense, but an attempt to try to give us a 360 account of the environment we're in right now. >> mark mckinnon, we have spent time in the party former known

as republicans. you bailed before i did. you had the good sense, but i think what eddie is saying is important. i hear this a lot anecdotally, like bruce willis in the 6th sense, former republicans see dead people, we see what republicans will do. what was clear after election day was that mitch mcconnell and kevin mccarthy, and bill barr, chris krebs and every other republican knew there was no butter frog, if there was, bill barr would have had a tribunal. they would have gone for it, right. there wasn't any frog. donald trump lost bigly, fair and square. that's why i think bill barr ultimately walked out the door. but by saying and doing nothing, they put in motion the dismantling of our democracy, and i think that's what our old boss george w. bush is speaking

to. they are of the same cloth of domestic violent extremist, the majority of them animated by stop the steal, believing the election was fraudulent, and they believe that because of mitch mcconnell and kevin mccarthy. they signalled that donald trump needed to cry it out, and they ripped the country apart. >> that's right old friend. good to see you. i wish the democrats had the same fierce urgency of the republicans to protect our democracy as the republicans do to poison it, and think about this, donald trump knows that if you repeat the lie enough, people will believe it. there's proof in the pudding. 57% of the country believe there was fraud in the election, despite zero evidence, after a year of lawsuits, millions of dollars spent, an audit paid for by the republican party in arizona. lieutenant governor dan patrick in texas offering a million dollar reward has yet to pay out a penny for any evidence of fraud. the texas attorney general's

office spent 1,300 man hours trying to find fraud. 2,200 man hours trying to find fraud and a does bad addresses. after all of that, not only is there no everyday of systemic fraud, there's no evidence of fraud period. they found after doing their own audit. they found there were more votes, not less for joe biden. but that's the dedication the republicans have to this, and donald trump says it's the most important issue on the ballot. and now it's become the entire purity test for the republican party. i wish the democrats had that same dedication to the truth as the republicans do to a lie. >> donna, i want to give you a chance to respond to that. democrats have so much on their plate. it's not fair but it's the brutal reality of what is on the plate of democrats right now. >> well, i have to say, here's what i think some of what is going on. and it is that given how donald trump, you know, went through

every length to try to undermine the election, the election results, we saw that in the interim report from the senate, the numbers of times that he called on officials at the department of justice, and i think after the election and after the insurrection, there was just such a desire, and there has been to return to normal, return to normal after covid. return to normal after an insurrection, but here's the problem is that those old rules required an allegiance to democracy that the republican party no longer has, and so that rule book is thrown out. and i do call on my fellow democrats and i do think that there are plenty of people in the democratic party who see the danger that looms, but it's hard to grab your heads around a party that no longer functions and for whom the guardrails of

trust and confidence and faith in our democracy no longer exist, that it sometimes becomes easier to just say here are the rules and we're going to follow the rule book, and what i say is that donald trump is such a danger and continues to be a threat to our democracy that that old rule book doesn't apply anymore. >> one of the races that have been nationalized and it's my sense, and i would love all of yours that a lot of them will be in the near future, is the virginia governor's race, and i want to play terry mcauliffe on "morning joe." >> if i did not win this, this would be the comeback of donald trump, this would lift him off the map. he would use the lanch pad to campaign in 2022, and set up for 2024. glenn youngkin, has been endorsed five times.

he has had one policy plan, election integrity. he said after trump talked about voting machines, what did glen say a couple of days ago, let's audit virginia's machines. so they're all the same. i couldn't agree with you more. that's why democrats and independents, but as i say, a couple dozen republicans endorsed me because i get things done. if we don't win this thing, this is donald trump's comeback, and people need to wake up. >> it strikes me that he's on to something, but it's not enough. it's not donald trump's comeback, it's the end of our democracy. let me put up the poll numbers in virginia. mcauliffe at 48.5%. youngkin at 45%. democrats are going to have to win by 15 points to survive questions about election integrity. they're not true but they have convinced their base that they are. larry elder lost by too much for it to work in california but if

democrats do not line up behind democracy over autocracy, truth over lies, this is our future. >> i absolutely agree. i think mcauliffe was right on point this morning. but i also want to say, why did the democrats put forward mcauliffe. that's the issue i have been trying to put forward. right? there is a sense, there is a generation, we can call them millennials, jen x, they have come in the midst of crises, and they have seen democrats and republicans do this dance, and they have seen the familiar characters. it is absolutely the case if that youngkin wins in virginia, donald trump gets off the map. it's absolutely the case but at the same time the democrats keep putting forward these sorts of folks that in some ways don't inspire people, and i think it's very important for us to understand and here i'm echoing donna in a different way, the

old rules have been broken. we have to reimagine ourselves moving forward. history is my witness. the task is fallen on the shoulders of an unsuspecting generation to salvage democracy. we're going to rise to the occasion or it's a wrap, period! it's hard to follow that. i'm going to ask mark mckinnon to try. among your many talents, and the circus is just on fire, but you also want to pass life crafted from a creative standpoint messages to move people, not just make them vote one way or another but move them emotionally. i wonder what message you would craft to move people, not just in virginia but to decide small d democracy and the people advocating it, big d democrats. >> well, i think you put your finger on it, and of course you were the communications master at the white house, so you are the real pro here, but your point was that you got to make

this existential. this shouldn't be trump versus biden on the democratic side, it should be autocracy versus democracy. that's what's at stake. part of the problem is you've got, you know, somebody who's already been governor, a generational candidate who doesn't have a great appeal for the new democratic party, so, you know, it's not a particularly vibrant messenger, but if it's not a vibrant messenger, you better have a vibrant message, and that's got to be existential. as you have outlined so clearly today, nicole, it is. >> i want to come back to the point about it being a wrap. say youngkin doesn't win this, as he won, it's still a wrap. >> it's not going to resolve itself by simply sending trump

off to pasture. the trouble is deeper than we think as james baldwin said becauses trouble is in us. unless we are mature enough to confront on both sides, our democracy, the republic is in deep jeopardy, and i think we have to understand that, and thank god you're ringing that alarm every single day. >> every single day with your help. eddie glaude, thank you for starting us off. mark mckinnon, donna edwards for sticking around: when we come back, state's governor banned vaccine mandates, women in the state are living with the chaos and tragedy of the country's strictest abortion law, essentially an all out ban. an elections administrator in a county donald trump won by a landslide has been hounded out of her job. it all begs the question, what the heck is wrong in texas. with millions of kids back in school, there's a bit of

reassuring news out today for parents. it sounds counter intuitive, we're going to give it to you anyway, the risk of covid in unvaccinated children is statistically lower in elderly people who are vaccinated. we'll ask a doctor to fact check and explain it. the national football league facing questions about whether it is doing enough to promote inclusive feelings, atmospheres after the resignation of a high profile coach for his racist and homophobic language. "deadline white house" comes back in a quick moment. don't go anywhere. in a quick mt don't go anywhere. ( sighs weari) here, i'll take that! ( excited yell ) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one-gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health! ( abbot sonic ) ♪ ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark.

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today's republican party wants to reshape the country, look no further than texas. last night its governor greg abbott banned all covid vaccine mandates with an order that puts texas on a collision course, not just with the biden administration but a lot of businesses. it's just the latest move by texas republicans that shows how the state has essentially become ground zero in every major way for every major political battle, even the unpopular ones playing out in the country. the ongoing fight over texas's abortion law, which bans 85% of all abortions there represents an existential threat to roe v. wade and the future of abortion rights nationwide. there's the fallout from the lies about election fraud. this phony claim that the election was stolen from trump is making itself even in counties and states that trump won decisively. the texas tribune and propublica are reporting on the ouster of an election official who became

a victim of election fraud conspiracies. an elections administrator submitted her resignation friday following a month's long effort by residents and officials loyal to former president trump to force her out of office. michelle carue who had overseen scores of elections found herself transformed into the public face of an election system which many came to mistrust. her critics sought to abolish her position and give her duties to an e lektsed county clerk who has used social media to promote baseless allegations of widespread voter fraud. back to max boot's piece about the need to elect democrats. the problem with picking and choosing among the good and ban republicans is that the good ones get run out of office, harassed or they're too afraid to stand up to trump. it really is reinforced by this very very sad story out of

texas. >> well, it does, nicole, and you know, i was attracted initially to governor bush because of the idea of compassionate conservatism. i spent the last week in texas for our show, and there's no compassion left in conservatism there. as you said, it's is the tip of the sphere of what's happening in republican politics, you can go down the list with the vaccine craziness, which is so contrary to republican orthodoxy, this is the governor telling private businesses what they can or can't do. that's not conservative or republican. on the fetal heart beat bill, to guns to the border to voting rights, just down the line, if you want to see where the republican party is headed just look at texas. >> and one of those battles and even though it's not in the national news the right keeps it in the news, and that's immigration. i want to play, mark, some of your interview on that topic. >> this is not new. what is new is the hateful

rhetoric. and that drum beat is extremely, extremely dangerous. two years ago we saw the massacre in el paso, saying that this invasion had to be controlled by some shooter. just last week, the border patrol in brooks county found a man hanging, a mexican man hanging, a lynching in brooks county. i hate to say this, but there's a real consequence, mark, and we're angry, we're frustrated because it's politics, it's political theater. the consequences are so severe. >> and that, mark, is the tragedy to me. they don't really care about the stuff they say. well, maybe they do, but the hateful, racist, all of these things, they do it for political outcome, to instill fear, to rile people up, to point them toward the other as an enemy. people are dying. >> well, that's right, and laura, a fascinating character

on the border, a former i.c.e. agent. it's a fascinating story in the evolution of where she's been and where she is now, but she's the heart beat of that. she's from the area and has seen it all, and she gets to the fundamental point which is, you know, she was reacting earlier to a press conference in the day that i was at where greg abbott and nine other governors from across the country as far away as south dakota were on the texas border surrounded by military hardware, helicopters that looked like a set from apocalypse now to basically militarizing the border, and again, this is so contrary to the republican version of what i saw in compassionate conservatism, george bush in the '90s in texas, was an immigrant friendly message. bush, reagan, that was part of the legacy of republicans. now it's about we don't want you, get out of here, you're different. we don't want you. >> i have to say this because it has to be said, donna, part of the way that died is by bush

family members going and kissing donald trump's ring, who stood against everything that the other bush had tried to move into conservatism. so it died with help from future subsequent generations of bushes, which is really, really sad, but kind of an inside texas piece of the story. i want to come back to the story that i mentioned in the lead about an election official. and i want to pull out a little bit, why are we talking about election fraud in texas. one, as mark said in the last block, it was investigated by a republican. they found none. i think the one that they found, they found some wrong addresses, and some who voted for trump, and why are we running out election officials and recounting votes in the state of texas, donna? >> well, and look at in texas what the response has been to the national rhetoric is that the texas legislature of course came right back to try to strip voting rights mostly from

communities of color in texas. and so the rhetoric is really dangerous, but it puts us on a pathway to the autocracy that we talked about before. if an elections official doesn't conduct an election the way that you want, you rip the power away from them. if the outcome is not what you want, you change the rules of the game. if the president who is duly elected is not the president that you want, you strip power away from him or her. we're living in a really dangerous time, and i think that -- i'm glad that we spotlighted texas after talking about virginia because it is as max boot said, it isn't just about electing a president. it's going from the top of the ballot to the bottom of the ballot to ensure that we elect people who believe in little d democracy and that is why for me it's not about being inspired by any particular leader as in

virginia with terry mcauliffe. it is about, you know, the danger of having a ron desantis or a greg abbott in charge of all of your elections, in charge of vaccines, in charge of whether our schools are safe for our children, and that is why democrats and people who believe in democracy, and i won't even say big d democrats, little d democrats who believe in democracy really have to stand up. this is our moment. because we either preserve it now or we lose it. >> absolutely right. >> mark mckinnon, it's an incredible episode of an incredible show. anyone who hasn't seen it should watch the circus from this week. donna edwards, thank you for spending time with us and for your words. when we come back, why covid may pose a bigger risk to older people who are vaccinated than younger children who are not. that new piece of reporting is next. not that new piece of reporting is

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as many of us eagerly await a vaccine for kids younger than 12 which could happen shortly after halloween, an analysis in the "new york times" today paints a very optimistic view about the relatively lower risk kids face in the meantime while we're all waiting. more than 64,000 kids and teens have been hospitalized with covid, and let's just stipulate,

one child sick with covid is too many. "the new york times" david lee breaks downs data, the statistics, in just the seattle area as one example, and it determines that the risk for unvaccinated children looks similar to the risk for vaccinated people in their 50s. for children without a serious medical condition the danger of severe covid is so low as to be difficult to quantify. for children with such a condition, the danger is higher, but still lower than many people believe. the risk of long covid among children, a source of fear among many parents appears to be very low. joining our conversation, dr. michael anderson a pediatric critical care physician, and senior adviser at in washington, d.c. i can't wait for my son who's younger than 12 to be

vaccinated. this provides information for kids back in school. how do you see it? >> there's optimism in the article. it's optimism that we can have the debate about should we get our kids vaccinated. pfizer has submitted its data to the fda. looks like a safe vaccine, an effective vaccine. we found the right dose. it's good that we can have the debate. something else i found interesting in the article is this notion from the original person who wrote an article in the atlantic. we need to be gentle, have conversations. pediatricians need to talk to families. i do think there's some optimism. i would share there's other data that cause concern. yes, the risk of a child becoming critically ill is low, but it's not zero, and if you look at other data across this country, under vaccinated areas, kids are having more covid cases than adults. number two, i've had the honor of touring pediatric intensive care units and they're really busy, and it's rare because you

said, nicolle, one 4-year-old on a ventilator with covid is not acceptable. a teenager on heart bypass is not acceptable. >> right. and there's so much life ahead of a child, all parents want to protect them from everything and anything, and i wonder if you can speak to what those conversations are going to look like between pediatricians and people with kids under 12? >> my friends at the american academic of pediatrics who represent the nation's pediatricians have been, number one, doing this for a long time. this is not the first vaccine. pediatricians are used to talking to families about the risks and benefits about how preventable some diseases are now, and hopefully we can get covid into that category. talking about the incredibly low risk profile, how safe these vaccines are. and talk about some things we don't know, we don't want another variant to emerge, and the only way we're going to get there is if the entire country can get to some sort of sense of

immunity. i think these are really important conversations. they are meant to calm people, to reassure them, but i think at the end of the day, also to show that vaccinating kids and hopefully eventually down to six months is going to be a really important next step in this battle. >> talk about why it took so long. i mean, i think that some of the duration of the approval process has something to do with safety, with vetting. can you explain that. >> yeah, there was a number of iterations on the vaccine, and this is a whole lot of questions to answer in a very short amount of time. you have to find the right dose, right, because kids are not small adults. we have to make sure that the dose is appropriate: number two, we have to make sure it's safe and any indication that there's safety issues have to be thoroughly investigated and once again from the pfizer press release it looks like this is safe, and third, of course, we have to make sure it's

effective. does this vaccine prevent disease, do kids produce antibodies, so this has taken a lot longer than what a lot of people would like, but it's that double edged sword. we want to make sure it's safe and effective but in this crisis, i believe, we need to bet it to kids as quickly as possible. you're right, i think all indications are hopefully, once the fda completes its work, we'll see vaccines in kid after halloween. >> i can't wait. dr. michael anderson, thank you for spending some time with us. when we come back, the resignation of las vegas raiders coach jon gruden after the revelation of homophobic, racist, and misogynistic e-mails raises questions about whether the nfl is doing enough to promote civility, diversity, and inclusion, all of that stuff. that story after a quick break. f that story after a quick break

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the drafting of a gay player, and the tolerance of players protesting during the national anthem. according to e-mails reviewed by "the new york times." gruden criticized nfl commissioner roger goodell and the league for trying to reduce concussions, and said that eric reed a player that had demonstrated during the national anthem should be fired. hours after that report, gruden resigned, saying in a statement, i love the raiders and do not want to be a distraction. thank you to the players, coaches, staff, and fans of raider nation. i'm sorry, i never meant to hurt anyone. joining us is bill rhoden, column philanthropist for espn's undefeated, author of the book "$40 million slaves." >> you know the game, people

always, what they're sorry about is getting caught. you know, and when somebody ends like that, i never meant to hurt anybody. i just think that that's so weak, so tired. you know, and, you know, a lot of people have pointed out that this happened, you know, in 2011, and my attitude about that is that, you know, gruden was a casualty of the war on racism. when you talk about the war on racism, there is no, you know, the time never runs out on it. he's essentially sort of a war criminal, so it doesn't matter when you said what you said, if you said it five years ago, ten years ago, when the truth comes out, you've got to be punished, and i think gruden's the kind of guy, if you look at his career, he's entitled, you know, he had a ten-year contract with the raiders, and i think he thought that he could basically say

anything and do anything and never pay a price for it. so there is a price to be paid for this, and i think people need to know. what i'd like to see happen, nicolle, is i would like to find out all of the e-mails, you know, who else. you know, to me that's the next level of this stuff. who do they write these things too, and what was their reaction to it. were they kind of lol, winking to gruden. to me it's only a stunning development because gruden had stood as this real popular guy, a guy's guy who probably thought that he was going to skate through this, and the fact that the raiders' owner, they say it's a resignation, but i think the nfl told him there's no gun to your head but the gun's on the table, and i think that they had to do this, and so it's

stunning, but it had to happen, and it was the right thing to happen. >> and to your point, you know, they didn't find a diary. they found mails and to this point, i want to read a little bit more from this "new york times" reporting. taken together, the e-mails provide an unvarnished look into a clubby culture of one nfl circle of peers where white male decision makers felt comfortable sharing pornographic images, deriding league policies, and jocularly sharing homophobic language. i know there is an issue, i think one or two coaches of color in the nfl, it seems that some of that is reflected in or endemic of or i wonder if you could just sort of talk to me and our viewers about the challenges the nfl faces on the lack of diversity among head coaches? >> it's such a great point,

nicolle, because it all comes together. >> right. >> that's what i think is so important to out these people. these are the people who decide that they don't want women in positions of power. these are the people who decide they don't want minorities to be head coaches. you know, these same people are executives who basically control the course of events so it's very important to find out who are these people and to root them out if possible. so this is a very, for all the reasons you laid out, it's really important that we just don't stop the story here, you know, the times did a great job of reporting and letting us know this, but i think the nfl has got to go a step further. you know, gruden just happened to be dumb enough or emboldened enough to put this stuff in writing, but his cronies are much smarter. these people who occupy levels of control and power are not going to put stuff in writing, so i want to find out who are

these people, who are his kroen -- cronies, who was he talking to. that's very important. >> i don't know that this is going to happen but having spent time on the other side of the political aisle, it's possible that he becomes possible. i don't know. elevated, if you will, by the right antipolitical correctness culture and that seems not only inappropriate, but dangerous. this is someone that the nfl didn't want in its ranks and i wonder if you can talk to how that might complicate things for the league. >> many of the nfl owners did support you know, the last, the last president and they support right wing causes. and very conservative causes. the nfl is a very congress league and you're absolutely right while we're reacting to this, while we're kind of revolted by his language, there are a lot of people, including people who are still in the nfl,

who basically embraced everything he said. they don't want women climbing the ladder. they don't want women officials. they don't want more black head coaches. they don't want players getting their voice. so i think that, you think that he's the only one that's thinking like this, you're on another planet. you're absolutely right. he may run the next republican candidate presidential campaign for all we know. so he's going to be embraced by a lot of people for what we consider to be the, you know, the wrong reasons. so although this is about the nfl, it's about our country. it's about the divisiveness of our country. >> it sure is. we'll stay on this with you. sounds like it's your sense there's more to come. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. a quick break for us we'll be right back. it's neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair® smooths the look of fine lines in 1-week,

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. >> hi, nicole. welcome to the beat, everyone. tonight, we're back with a look at history's lessons for dealing congressional obstruction and later, a report about a police stop in ohio. our top story is a welcome headline for the biden administration. a vote in the house expected to begin at any moment to pay america's debt starting from the last administration. part of the compromise to raise the so-called debt ceiling until december. speaking pelosi telling progressives she shares their concern about negotiations and are pushing democrats below a safety net spend package that was aimed at over 3 trillion. >> i'm very disappointed that we're not going with the original