my great friend and you're carrying it on. it's just stunning in the aftermath of george floyd we've not gotten federal legislation, which would make it so much easier to have national standards. >> well, we will not give up. we'll not give in, we'll continue to fight, and thank you for having me on, andrea. >> you bet. well, we'll not leave it there. we'll continue. and that does it for today's edition of andrea mitchell reports. remember follow us online and on twitter. chuck todd and mtp daily starts right now. if it's wednesday president biden confronts a major economic headwind, the nation's growing supply chain backlogs, just one of many headaches plaguing the white house, covid, the border, our toxic politics, the return of trump and none of them are going away anytime soon. plus at 90 william shatner becomes the oldest person ever

to reach space. a new frontier for mr. shatner as blue origin launches its second rocket that isn't just about joy rides and famous people and billionaires, or is it still? and the white house tells u.s. governors to get ready to vaccinate kids by november the deadline. that is now just weeks away. welcome to "meet the press" daily. i'm chuck todd. every day we try to tell you what's urgent in american politics today. but big picture time. there's kind of a fog or dare i say malaise over washington, the pandemic, supply chain issues, toxic politics, the return of trump. there's simply a slog of urgent issues facing the white house and congress, and there's no

easy answers. and by the way control of congress is up for grabs in just a year. the pandemic has killed more than 700,000 americans and daily life remains marred with fights over mandates, vaccine resistance, a parade of grim milestones and on and on. and thank tuesday the pandemic we have an economic slog that continues as well. we could expect job numbers, an inflation issue that's really probably being triggered more so by the big thing, supply chain bottlenecks. the president today is meeting with advisers and business leaders to discuss a plan to try to ease those backlogs which have thrown parts of the supply chain into gridlock that may take months if not longer to unravel. we'll have much more on this story later in the show. there's also the ongoing situation at the border. there's not going away anytime soon. and our toxic politics, and sadly that's not going away,

either. and finally there's the president's current semistalled two track agenda in congress and divisions in his own party that have no signs of a break through there either, at least not yet. and even if democrats pass what they want, they're in for a long slog to implement this agenda and then of course attempt to get credit for it. right now is president biden getting credit for those $1,900 checks? folks, to borrow a phrase from billow joel, president biden and the elected democrats didn't start the fires but they were elected to put them out, and the problem facing democrats right now none of these problems are going away anytime soon leaving their own political problems in the hands of an exhausted electorate. monica, this fog, this haze, however we want to describe it here, there's no doubt the white house gets it.

that's why they're trying to do a public ivent, trying to figure out the supply chain problem. let's get specific here. is this something the white house can do something about, or is it something they can say they want to do something but can only hope for the best? >> they've seen this problem coming for months. we've seen the images of the ports and the cargo ships being so delayed of course causing great concern among white house officials. that's why back in july they established a task force to try to look at these supply chain issues, look at the backlog and see what they can do. so today that's why the president is meeting with companies like wal-mart, ups, fedex, home depot and shifting to these 24/7 operations, so working around the clock to see if they can unload more quickly, what the biden administration has realized there's a major issue when it comes to trucking in this country and having

enough people to be able to move these goods physically. so you have a massive gargantuan challenge, but many experts when you're talking about the time line mere, a lot of these are going to be potentially problematic when we're talking about christmas and that's why they're urging people to get ahead of it. but the issue now there's a tight runway to deal with it. so the white house is acutely aware of it. and it follows a pattern when they've been dealing with other things like vaccine mandates and the airlines. they're going to try to model that with the splay chain issue and say we're putting our heads together and figure out a plan and put it in place, but many people are saying that's likely not going to be resolved for many weeks and months. but at least the white house can

say we put together some kind of plan and we're going to enact it. it has been something the white house press secretary has been asked about. for the last four or five months it's been building to this point so it finally seemed they felt they needed to take more drastic action. but the white house here has been dealing with this wack a mole kind of situation and that's why later in the week the president is going to go to connecticut to continue to sell those two stalled bills. much of that is taking place behind the scenes while outwardly the focus today is this splay chain challenge. >> all right, monica alba with sort of the white house perspective. leanne, let me go to you. it's interesting to hear the president wants to go and sell a plan. what plan is there to sell?

and i say this i know generally what they want to do, but the specifics are getting harder and harder to nail down, and there are -- if it goes in one direction there'll be more things to campaign on. if it goes in another direction, there'll be fewer things. where are we, and what are we supposed to make of kyrsten sinema making it clear she only speaks to the white house, that's it, no other member of congress? >> you took the words out of my mouth. they have nothing to sell yet. they have no legislation. and speaker pelosi yesterday in her press conference blamed the media in part for the general public not knowing what is in the build back better agenda. well, we can't really talk about what's in the bill because there is no bill yet. and that is where democrats are. they're trying to figure out what is in this legislation, and there's nothing to sell. they need to come to an

agreement first. now, senator sinema, what she put out today is what i've been told for the past few weeks that she is not negotiating with anyone. she's not negotiating with the press, and she's barely negotiating with leader schumer. she is talking to the president and that the president knows exactly where she stands. and now that has led to additional questions of where's the white house and where's the president in these negotiations? house moderate staffer told me just today that how the president and the white house are dealing with this reconciliation multi-trillion dollar bill is much different than how they dealt with the bipartisan infrastructure bill. there was meeting after meeting. these members traipsed down to the white house to meet with president biden are, and it feels different to a lot of these members who haven't heard from the white house on this multi-trillion dollar bill, and they're wondering when these negotiations are going to start

in earnest. >> yeah, there's a -- i've used the theme of fog. there's a real fog over i assume for most members of congress they don't know where things stand. feels like only a handful are involved in this, is that right, leanne? >> it seems to be only committee chair, the speaker, but the president even that they haven't made decisions. and there's been a lot of frustration speaker pelosi hasn't been talking enough to her members to get where they are. fog is a great word. people aren't knowing which way is right, which way is left and which way is moving forward. >> i go back to what debbie dingell said. there are a lot of people who want the president back, tell us what you want to support. we are lucky enough to have somebody who has a fog lamp, i think, because she's one of the key players that ininvolved in these negotiations over the

president's agenda in congress. she's of course chair of the congressional progressive caucus. so, congresswoman, i want to say something you said last night that perked up the ears of a lot of people. you push back on the notion that something is better than nothing. and explain your concern, why you're not in the camp that says isn't something better than nothing? >> well, chuck, it's great to see you. i'm going to have my fog lamp every time i come to be with you from now on. i think this phrase something is better than nothing, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, some of the things that are said, those phrases are normally used at the end of a negotiation. they are used when you really have like the final details and you're putting the thing on, and you say don't let one thing hold you up. that is not the situation here. the situation here is that we

are fighting for the president's build back better agenda. 85% of the entire agenda he laid out before congress is in this build back better act, and we are saying don't leave people behind. don't leave behind families who need child care, families who need paid leave, don't leave behind housing, don't leave behind immigrants. that's what we're saying and 85% of all of us in congress agree. and so i would disagree a little bit there's nothing to sell here because we have a build back better act. it's already been created. and went through committees in the house and still there hasn't been a lot of coverage what's in the build back better app. i think that is what the speaker is saying, that is what the president is saying without really telling the american people what's in the bill. the top line number is kind of incidental in my view. and of course i don't mean that

naively. it depends on what programs you put in, and for us we've been very clear. 98% of all democrats agree. this idea somehow democrats are in disarray it's not true. we're waiting on two people to tell us what they agree on, first of all, because they don't agree with each other. and we'd like them to tell us what they'd like us to consider that is different from the act on the table that the president agrees with, that 98% of democrats agree with, that 70% of the american people agree with if they know what's in it. so that's how i i think about this, and i think it's important to recognize there is a very specific agenda here we're talking about. and we need people to understand it's 2 weeks of paid leave so we can finally get the united states back up to the standards that other countries are at. it's universal child care so no one has to pay more than 7% of their income. it's housing for everybody across the country to ease the numbers of unhoused that are

here in the richest country in the world. it is making sure that seniors have access to dental, vision and hearing benefits at the very time they need it the most. it's real action on climate change. and by that i mean reducing carbon emissions so that the president can go to cop 26 and say we are leaders on climate, and of course it's lifting up immigrants. that's the agenda we want people to know that's what we're fighting for. we're fighting for them to have transformation in their lives. >> well, the president has already brought the number down. he's already said it's not going to be that. so you're not going to be able to have all the things you just describe. this is what makes covering what's in the bill aspirationally that's what you describe but it isn't in the bill yet, and the president is not fighting for the full bill anymore. he seems to be fighting for what a compromise is that can keep everybody at the table. that compromise, it is not going

to have everything you just described in there. there's going to be something that gives. is means testing something you're open to? >> i would just say we whittled down our priorities. we don't have a big laundry list of 8,000 things. we have five things that i mentioned. and those things i do think will be in this bill, but probably for shorter periods of time, funded for shorter periods of time. and that is is the important piece we're getting at. i think you and i have all this means testing conversation. so much of the means testing we've done in america has been absolutely really not constructed in a way that allows people -- that the very most ulvulnerable people to participate. incredibly complex, drives people away. the research shows that the most vulnerable are actually the most affected when you put a whole bunch of restrictions on, and by the way it costs a lot of money

administratively to get somebody to go through a 23-page form. we think there were much more simple ways of doing this. for example, a 7% cap of income for child care would be a way of saying you have to spend 7% of your income. so guess what? if you're a millionaire you're never going to get a government subsidy because child care is never going to cost that much. >> here's a question i have that i think a lot of rank and file members of congress, why aren't you and mantion and sinema and the president and the leaders, why aren't you guys in the same room? why isn't thereof a back and fourth? you guys feel you don't want to

negotiate through the press, but in many times it seems to be the only time manchin and bernie speak to each other. senator sinema has said she's only going to speak to the president. it feels like the process itself is broken here. >> i think it depends. it left out a heck of a lot of us that weren't at the table for that. so in this situation this build back better act has been crafted by 98% of democrats. i think that's a pretty good process, actually. but now there are two people that need to come onboard and the president in my view is the best person that needs to be talking with them. i have had a conversation with senator sinema, and senator manchin. i've suggested i'm happy to sit down with him. he's suggested he's happy to sit

down with me. so maybe that will happen. but the real situation here is the president because this is the president's agenda. this isn't some agenda of ten senators that was developed separate from everyone else. no, this is the president's agenda, so i think it's completely appropriate those two hold out senators would talk to the president about what they believe. now i at the same time am also talking to the president, to the white house, to others about what we need just so we don't get into a situation where something gets negotiated that we simply are not going to be able to have the votes for, because we have thin margins in the house as well. and as one senator said to me yesterday it is important we get all 50 senators onboard, not just two, so that is also another consideration here. >> you made tapretty clear this last year whose job it is to wrangle all this together. it is the leader of the party, the president of the united states. great to have you on and get

your perspective. thank you. >> thank you, chuck. >> coming up, we're going to dig more into the nation's supply chain program as countries across the west coast are going to have to make major changes. first some major developments in the modern day space race as blue origin launches its second unmanned rocket into orbit. we'll have more on that next. you're watching "meet the press daily." next you're watching "meet the press daily. i've lost count of how many asthma attacks i've had. but my nunormal with nucala? fewer asthma attacks. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor.

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two, one. >> she is on her space with the second human spaceflight crew. what a launch. we are on our way. the first milestone here. >> that was unlike anything they described. >> welcome back. one of the heroes of science

fiction is now part of actual science history. earlier today 90-year-old william shatner, captain kirk himself, became the oldest person ever to reach space as part of blue origin's second all-civilian crew. >> everyone in the world needs to be on this. everybody in the world needs to see. but to see the blue color go right by you and now you're staring into blackness. that's the thing. i'm so filled with emotion that i just -- it's extraordinary, extraordinary. i hope i never recover from this. i hope that i can maintain what i feel now. i don't want to lose it. >> if that man is 90 i will have what he's having.

my gosh. you actually can see if lucy is in the sky with diamonds. this was the sixth spaceflight this year carrying civilian astronauts. look, i've just sort of -- i can't get over like i said william shatner at 90, he just looks spry and he's got so much energy. but the fact that this is now becoming -- we're getting to the point of semi-commonplace here. >> yeah, chuck. you know, this -- blue origin was quick to say they had 17 consecutive successful flights with the blue origin rocket, that new shepherd rocket.

and this now makes the 18th successful manned flight. after we watched that rocket liftoff from the west texas desert back in july, and you have to think how much more frequently is this going to start to happen now they're seeing consistent success here and not just in the test action mode but with actual crew members here. and you saw the reaction from william shatner after he walked outside the capsule. and what was so striking to me prior to this, he said he looked forward to looking outside the window and being entranced in the blue orb that is earth. but to see the raw emotion on the other side of this trip face-to-face with jeff bezos saying he wanted to grab ahold of it and hold onto it as long as he could, it was very evident to see just the impact it had on him. and i think it really does capture part of the motivation at least what jeff bezos is trying to do here and that is increase the frequency of these

flights, build and quote-unquote road to space in hope tz of making it more accessible at least for the rest of us who can't currently afford that quarter million dollar estimated price tag for a seat onboard. >> what are the next phases of what blue origin wants to do here? do they hope to dock with a space station? do they hope to orbit the earth for a while? do they want to do overnight flights? what is the next phase here? you know, these are these short flights. what do they hope to start doing next? >> i think what we're going to start to see is more consistency with the flights that have already taken place. i wouldn't take anything off the table when it comes to jeff bezos and his goals for in-space travel as far as going around the earth's orbit. those are next natural steps, of course. but in the meantime we still just have two manned flights that have taken up to four

people each time. you know that capsule can hold up to six people. we will start to see vanhorn, texas, become more and more prevalent as this launch site becomes used more by blue origin and reuse the capsule and reuse that thruster which i can tell you is pretty wild to see return after going to the sky, come back and land on a launchpad not too far away from where it took off. so the fact they're able to reuse these tools is a positive sign of what's to come. >> let me bring in colonel hatfield here. what do you believe these private spaceflights are accomplishing? and what do you say to folks who say, ah, this feel like a whole bunch of rich guys just trying to show-off? what say you? >> i think everybody -- not only

was morgan excited listening to him there, but everyone should take a couple of minutes and listen to the outpouring of emotion from bill shatner when he saw the world the way he saw it. it's just a truly honest and profound human experience he was doing his best to express. so we're taking a moment listening to that today. so the human experience is the first answer to your question, chuck. but the second piece is this is really just a demonstration of the technology that we have just now perfected. it opened up access to space for business like we've never seen before. the cheaper you can make it and the simpler and safer, it opens up business like trains and airplanes. and faster than we might think we're going to have an earth-moon economic system built. it's great to see bill flying

today and exciting, but to me that's what this signifies is the technological opening of a whole new capability. >> you sort of share a perspective jessica mir shared with me last week. let me play a clip about what she said these public. private partnerships. >> 4% of gdp was spent on these apollo missions. but now the nasa budget is about 4.3%. that's all of nasa. so we need this. we need these partnerships with private companies. we need these international partnerships. by leveraging these partnerships with commercial partners like spacex and boeing to concentrate on what we call near earth orbit, we can use or more limited nasa assets to go toward the next destination. >> so colonel hatfield, here's the one question that i have i'm nervous about because we're

seeing what's happened in the world of social media. we hurry-up and build something and then we realize, uh-oh, we didn't put any restrictions on "x" and "y." and the rules of space, right now there are no rules, right? it's basically only the technology, the science is your limitation right now. are you nervous about this, that the private sector could go up there and privatize space at a time it shouldn't be privatized. well, think what about chaos new york was in 1910 when cars started replacing horses. and the infrastructure and the regulations and stop signs and streetlights and driver's licenses, those took a little while to get into place. same thing with airplanes in the 1920s. there was just, gosh, we had this new technology and had to figure how to fit it into and form an faa. and now the faa is dealing with the same sort of thing with spaceflight. it's a transitional phase, and the technology has got to push

forward. that's fundamental human nature. yes, we need to get it properly integrated into culture and society and rules. i'm not super worried about it, but it's bound to happen, but to me it opens up so much possibility just like standard human creativity. and i very much agree with jessica that this model, where the cost has come down so much, there's a partnership between nasa exploring the universe and businesses able now to take advantage of the real high ground of orbit, it's a natural long-term progression, and we'll get it sorted out pretty quickly. >> i spend a lot of time covering washington, the fog of politics and nothing broke through the fog today but william shatner. whatever we think about this long-term, you're so right. just spend a minute listening to shatner today and it'll put you in a good mood. colonel, thanks for spending some time. i appreciate it. coming up we've got the latest shift from the white house on the pandemic has the

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announced it today as an expansion for foreign nationals arriving by air. nonessential land travelers will have to prove their fully vaccinated starting in november like essential travelers like truck drivers will have until january. and more news from the administration on the covid front. the white house told governors to get ready to vaccinate children as young as 5 by early next month. this comes as the fda and cdc are set to review pfizer's vaccine for kids age 5 to 11. all of this comes with the hopeful news the pandemic is still trending in the right direction here at home. nationwide decreases in cases, deaths and hospitalizations in today's press briefing. but, again, the nation's top doctors also reminded folks the pandemic is very much ongoing and our levels are still not great despite the recent good news.

dr. fauci said we still must do better to get the pandemic under control to keep it that way through vaccinations and masks. and all of us are fearing another variant especially thanks to so many large unvaccinated pockets around the world. up next we're going to go live to the port of oakland, taking a deep dive on what's behind the supply chain crunch that's certainly having a huge impact on inflation and the economy as president biden plans to deliver his remarks and his plans to try to break the bottlenecks impacting millions of businesses and consumers. g millions of buss and consumers. (music) at aetna, we're putting all other medicare plans on notice. with coverage and services that may include a $0 monthly plan premium telehealth emergency coverage while you travel an over-the-counter allowance

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welcome back. the white house is anticipating more economic woes and a tough mid-term fight which comes as president biden is about to meet with senior officials and executive from companies like wal-mart, ups and fedex in an attempt to address the bottlenecks in the supply chain.

which includes a 90-day sprint in order to help alleviate them. a major issue impacting consumers, businesses, the economy and the administration. and new data released today shows inflation rose in september as well, which is yet another economic headwind facing the white house that isn't expected to away anytime soon. money out there, not a lot of things to buy so prices go up. so this supply chain issue has -- jacob, i happened to be out in southern california last weekend. and just looking out the plane window when you leave lax you can see the backup at long beach. it's one of those things you read about it, it's another thing to see it. tell us what you see in oakland. >> it is extraordinary, chuck, to be standing in a place that

is as backed up as the west coast is. we in fact took a tour of the port of oakland where i am standing and back in april to see how they were sort of considering the future. and let me just try to put it in perspective for you. i want you to listen to the executive director at the port of oakland who at that timewise staring down the barrel of what he knew was an incredible crush coming his way. have a listen. >> we are busier than ever, and the pandemic has changed peoples habits in terms of buying stuff. repairing their home, getting more furnishing, appliances, so all of that stuff is coming through the port of oakland for this region and we're see a boom of people buying and shipping through asia to the port of oakland. >> so just to talk about what exactly that then means here on the ground, if you think about the port of oakland, you know, since then they basically like so many california ports they

basically had shippers turning away because the lines were too long. in august their numbers were actually down because ships simply weren't arriving here. since then they've added shifts, put in some world class cranes. they truly had to transform their operations to get it going. but now we're still facing the problem of what you do once things come off the boat. you need trucks to carry them away. there's a huge shortage in truckers themselves, we have a rail car shortage. the gaps go on and on. and that is why, chuck, so many companies have stood up with the white house or expected to stand up today and say we'll start moving to a broader schedule, move to a 24/7 operation in the off peak hours all of this being an extraordinary effort on the part of the white house to orchestrate what used to be a free market. >> as a convening entity the white house can do a lot and they're convening all these

ceos. is there something the government can do here short-term to help alleviate, or is what he's doing the best he can do? >> listen, it is the free market. we have to remember, chuck, the moment we're in. jamie diamond, the ceo of jp morgan said it earlier. almost two years ago we were looking at possibly facing a great depression. we had a global pandemic. we were in a terrible situation. now we're coming out of it and we're in a good consumer based economy. consumers are still spending and this is dampening consumer spending, but it's not reversing where we are. and these supply chain issues and these labor issues will work themselves out over time. and what the white house can do is sort of create more buffers in the system, boost the system. you're seeing the social security assessment for next year that the adjustment for

cost of living, they're going to have the greatest increase they've had since the '80s to account for the fact that groceries cost more, gas costs more. buts when you talk to ceos or economists, they're saying this is transitory, and there's not a business leader out there not trying to solve for this. >> i understand this. stephanie, define the time line for this. on one hand the political calendar is not necessarily going to line up with our eventual ability to sort hof cycle out of this issue. i'm with you i see what they did on social security, but it may see like a net zero to a social security recipient because it does look like inflation is here to stay at least temporarily. >> your wage increases are worth zipo, zilch when everything else costs a whole lot more. to your point, this doesn't help the biden administration in

terms of a political calender, and the fact they're trying to pass two very big infrastructure bills important long-term, but in the short-term the things people are complaining about every night at the dinner table, none of this solves for that. >> jacob, if they could have one extra asset at the port of oakland, what would it be? is it truck drivers or more people to unload these boats? >> i think that obviously we've learned that the supply chain was not built for resiliency. it was built to be as cheap as possible, and that's why it's now turning out to be so fragile. frankly, i think if the port of oakland had its way -- i don't want to speak for them, but they'd point out trucking is a huge problem. it found they're going to need another million truck drivers the next ten years. people are falling out of that industry like crazy. and as a result once things come off the boats you see behind me

there's not necessarily anywhere for them to go. the supply chain is very, very amazing but, whoa, does it turn out to be fragile. >> truck drivers when people were thinking that industry was going to be finally be automated. >> remember we saw scores of truckers retire last year or shift. it's not necessarily a labor shortage but a shift. remember amazon has hired millions of people to their distribution centers in the last year as have other big box stores and retailers. and that's where a lot of those truckers have gone. >> there's competition for that labor group. that's for sure. jacob ward, stephanie ruhle, appreciate both of you. for more on this issue facing the white house transportation secretary pete buttigieg will join my colleague jeff bennett for a one-on-one on this issue. but first an update on the closely watched gubernatorial

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lead over republican glenn youngkin. the republicans claim their internal polling has youngkin ahead. it's an off cycle election, and the thing about these polls is it's all about the turnout projection in the poll. trust me, you could have a correct poll that gives you multiple results depending on who you think is going to show up. both campaigns are looking for ways to boost turnout. mcauliffe is bringing in stacey abrams and joe biden to campaign for him. for youngkin, he's hammering education after mcauliffe stumbled on questions of how involved parents should be in school curriculums. november 2 will be a big night, circle your calendars. the outcome will tell us what the landscape for 2022 will look like as well and we'll be there. coming up, a deep dive into how some states like south dakota have become global tax havens and how billionaires

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welcome back. what does wrigley chewing gum, the hyatt hotels, and a brazilian orange juice baron, and the former vice president of the dominican republic have in common? they all reportedly have substantial wealth hidden away in a tax haven in the united states. not in panama, not in switzerland. south dakota. according to a bombshell report released days ago, south dakota is among a number of u.s. states most popular these days among the ultrarich for stashing billions with little oversight. today south dakota is home to the nation's largest number of trusts. that's how this money is hidden. so much so that according to "the washington post," the state's trust system has quadrupled in value in the last decade and now holds $367

billion in assets, all of it untaxable, and largely anonymous, at least until now. the kicker? it's all legal. thanks to a number of tax loopholes and state laws. so i know what you're wondering because it's what i'm wondering. how did this happen and how did south dakota become the place? chuck collins has written extensively about this issue, how the global rich hides their wealth. he has known about the south dakota tax haven status for years and in fact was trying to sound the alarm on this. he himself was once heir to the oscar mayer weiner fortune. he joins me now. chuck, i believe it was just in the last week we got more countries signing on to a global flat tax of at least a baseline agreement. and what i was thinking about here is, we have the treasury secretary trying to get other countries to sort of not become

a tax giveaway and here we are in the united states. give us a history lesson here. how did south dakota become essentially one of the world's great tax havens? >> well, south dakota's secret sauce is that they don't disclose who the beneficiaries are of the trust. secondly, they don't charge any taxes, income tax or taxes on the trust assets. and the third important ingredient is you can have a perpetual trust in south dakota. starting in 1983, the trust industry went to the state and they changed the laws to eliminate a provision of property law that basically says a trust has to wind down within a generation or two. those three components basically make south dakota a real destination and attraction for what we call dynasty trusts, people who want to park and sequester billions of dollars forever.

>> what i can't figure out here is what benefit an average resident of south dakota gets from this. >> probably not much of a benefit at all. in a small state there are probably 500 people who work in the trust industry. those are good paying jobs, i assume those people pay some income tax. otherwise there's not a lot of benefit to the people of south dakota. in some ways there's a vulnerability, they're exposing themselves now to criminal wealth from around the world because they have essentially become accomplices to that wealth heist, if you will. >> so how do we -- and i know you're making this argument that we're trying to on the one hand, as i just noted at the beginning, we're trying to be a leader in trying to not have a race to the bottom on corporate taxation policy around the world. at the same time, when it comes to wealth inequality, you know, are we, you know -- are we putting our money where our mouth is. do we need to change our laws at the federal level to prevent

states from doing this? >> yeah, i think, chuck, that's probably the direction to go. this is a result of the federalist system where states have a lot of autonomy. alaska and delaware and now probably half the states in the united states are in the chase to attract this trust money, create these dynasty trusts. but the federal government can do two things right away. one is, they can have a federal definition of trusts that limits their lifespan, particularly as it relates to the estate tax and gift tax. we did a year ago pass the corporate transparency act, we could expand that to include trusts. those are two things that would limit that race to the bottom between states, that competition between states and bring us in alignment with a lot of the rest

of the world. who pushes hardest for this? >> the investment managers have a vested interest in this. when billionaires don't pay taxes, they're shifting it to the rest of us, that's one of the biggest harms. there's a growing movement to shift this. >> that's what we need to understand, what bill is being passed to the rest of us that these guys are refusing to pay. chuck collins, it was good to get your perspective. i've been shaking my head, south dakota? you've been on this for a while. thanks for coming on and sharing your views. and thank you all for being with us. we'll be back tomorrow for more "meet the press daily." msnbc coverage continues with geoff bennett and his interview with the secretary of transportation, right now. it is good to be with