project force in a post-cold war era, and he was much of a counter lesson in the first century. he was a life in full and a man who stood on the ramparts for liberalcy and democracy. >> colin powell has died at the age of 84 due to covid-related complications. his family put out a statement this morning, a very short statement, but they did put in the fact he was vaccinated. he was a decorated american, a family man, and a good friend, and our hearts go out to his wife alma, his children michael, linda, and ann, and everybody in the powell family. that does it for us this

morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi, there. i'm stephanie ruhle live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it's monday, october 18th, and we start with breaking very sad news. colin powell, the trailblazing former secretary of state and chairman of the joint chiefs of staff has died of complications from covid-19. he was 84 years old. powell who was also a four-star general and served in five presidential administrations had been suffering from cancer. his family confirmed his death just about an hour ago. i want to bring in my colleague shannon pettypiece from the white house, dr. patel, former ambassador douglas lute. he served as the u.s. representative to nato and retired lieutenant general in the u.s. army. shannon, what can you tell us about what has happened? >> reporter: certainly a man who had big influence in the

building behind me and shaping the course of history in many ways. we have not heard from president biden on this. we're anticipating hearing from the white house soon. colin powell was someone influential for president biden. he endorsed him at the dnc convention and added to the chorus of the national security defense officials who came out and supported biden in that 2020 election campaign and undercut some of the attempts by the trump administration to argue that trump was the president of national security. you know, i will say i know it has stood out to a lot of people the fact that he was fully vaccinated and still succumbed to complications of covid. that is something we have been hearing from the white house and the administration particularly when it comes to older adults, people over 80, that is one of the reasons they are pushing the booster campaign and encourage people to continue wearing masks who are at risk, even if they're

fully vaccinated, but older and have underlying conditions. certainly dr. patel can talk to it more. but certainly an influential figure in the white house, and we look to hear from the white house soon. >> ambassador, people might not realize colin powell had an extensive military history, essentially a front row seat all the way from vietnam to iraq. can you speak to us about your recollections of him from a military standpoint? >> sure. colin powell's story is really the story of the american army, as you say, reefing all the way back to vietnam when he served in come back and the end of the coast war, we forget this now, decades ago, but he oversaw that. shortly after the fall of the berlin wall, the gulf war, which really, i think, epitomized the recovery of the american army after vietnam, and then beyond that, in the past, 9/11 and the wars that followed.

he's an icon, a key figure in the american army over the last 40 or 50 years to whom all officers looked up to. >> ambassador, in recent years we saw colin powell do something we'd not seen before. he spoke out against donald trump and his enablers and earlier this year he said he no longer considered himself a republican. is his brand of republicanism, is it gone for good? >> well, look. i can't speak exactly the that point, but what i can tell you is that his position on policy issue after policy issue, he put practical approaches and principle and integrity above everything else, so he was first and foremost a man of integrity, a man who put the country first. >> a great man, but almost more

importantly, a good and decent man. dr. patel, hello us understand this because for so many people scratching their heads right now, they hear that he was fully vaccinated and yet he died of covid-19 complications. what can you tell us about that? >> yeah, stephanie. so, look, we're still trying to get some details. it appears from the family's official post they thanked the walter reed army medical staff and it seems he was recently hospitalized, but they did make the point of saying complications of covid-19. he's fully vaccinated, age 84, and has had several cancers including multiple myeloma which is a blood cancer. it would put him in a more immunocompromised status. someone who can't mount even with the best vaccine series the best protection. it brings up the question of

covid-19. it's another reminder. he's an african-american, a man of many firsts, but unfortunately one of the rare people who have been vaccinate and still died from complications of covid-19. >> i want to bring in a former chief of staff of the defense department. he knew colin powell well. jeremy, i want to get you thoughts on colin powell's leg circumstance particularly when it comes to being a diplomat and politician who served in five administrations. right now, the idea of serving for so long, so many presidents, doesn't seem like something we could see today. >> well, stephanie, first and foremost, when i think of colin powell, i think of the son of immigrants.

he was born in 1937, grew up in harlem, the son of jamaican immigrants, he worked his way through school on an rotc scholarship and served 35 years, 3 1/2 decades in uniform in the u.s. army, served twice in vietnam. came to washington and served in the white house as a white house fellow, went back to commanding forces in europe and around the world, served as deputy national security adviser and national security adviser under president reagan. i think where he came to the attention of the entire american people was during the gulf war in 1990 and 1991 when he appeared regularly at those pentagon briefings when he was serve as the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, liberating kuwait, alongside general schwarzkopf. i think general powell arctic a littled military power, not

based on how many military forces he could deploy but how precisely, accurately, and smartly he could deploy that power because in his view, stephanie, you wanted to be careful whenever you used military power. you wanted to be precise, and you wanted to have an exit strategy. that was the powell doctrine. i've been in the pentagon iowa. you always talked about the powell doctrine. also the pottery barn rule. if you break it, you buy it. whenever the united states goes in and breaks something, we have to own it, own the consequences. colin powell leave as very important and lasting legacy for anyone who's a decision maker or diplomacy defense in international affairs. >> and beyond colin powell as a diplomat, a military man, a politician, what do you want people to know about colin powell the person? >> well, he was a gentle soul. i mean he wasn't someone who was filled with a lot of bravado.

he didn't think he was the smaefrt or most core ranges or heroic. he let other people leave and he mentored so many other service members, so many young foreign policy makers. the other thing is i used to see him driving around town in his gray corvette and even one time i saw him pulled over to the side of the road helping somebody change a flat tire. he loved automobiles. he loved to be a hands-on mechanic, and he loved to help people, and he was just a -- i think the best of america. as i said, he came from humble roots, a chief of greatness on the international and global stage but never lost the concept that he had to work hard to get where he was in life, and i think in that way was an inspiration to so many young people. >> the best of america, an america we hope and pray still

skpifts. ambassador, same question to you. what do you want people to know about colin powell, the person? >> i think jeremy summed it up really well. he was gentle, authoritative, but not in a pushy way. he didn't push his ideas onto others. he listened and was a man of great integrity, someone we can all look up to. >> someone we all look up to. i want to bring in james. admiral, i just want to start by getting your reaction to general colin powell's death. >> he was the best of us all, and he was the north star for so many of us senior military who grew up, and this is difficult for those of us who knew him so personally. when i was a command never the navy, captain in the navy, all

the way up to being a four-star general, at every level i would like to general powell to what i ought to do in tough situations. stephanie, you mentioned a minute ago about looking up to people. as you know, i'm about 5'5". i really looked up to general powell. and when i went to see him after being selected to be supreme ally commander of nato, i said, sir, what do you think? how should i approach this job? he said, jim, the secret is, you go to europe. don't think you're going to become charlemagne. don't think you're going to take over the roman empire. it was a classic colin powell line. as i was leaved, he gave me a copy of his memoir which i highly recommend. "my american journey" which takes us from his journey as an

immigrant. he describes in the book don't be charlemagne. it's pretty good for all of us. in other words, keep your ego in check. another point that strikes a lot of us in uniform, but veterans and those on active duty, we remember general powell. he was a great secretary of state and national security adviser. before that he was an army soldier wounded in vietnam, got the soldier's medal for rescuing others in vietnam, and always that combat experience shaded the advice he gave to presidents, to cabinet officers, to cap weinberger, all that jeremy and others have discussed was shaped by his experience as an american soldier, so we've lost a great military leader, a true north to so many of us, and also we've lost someone of humor

and grace and kindness. just look at the photographs you're showing and look at the picture on his face. that's the colin powell i knew and love. >> what will you remember most about him? what was it like to interface with him? >> it was this remarkable combination of humility, which we've all just talked about, but his pragmatism, his ability to go right to the heart of an issue. you know, as a mid grade kind of young irsauvg he would buy old beat up volvos and repair them, put new engines in them. as jeremy was saying he was someone who could work with his hands as well as his mind. that combination of pragmatism and also the ability to be kind and thoughtful to others, it's so rare in washington. you know where we say in washington if you want a friend, get a dog. colin powell is remembered today as a friend to so many on both

sides of the aisle. remember that about colin powell. >> jeremy, what was it like to know him? what will you remember him for? >> well, he represented, stephanie, for so many of us who learned from him, i think a kind of great philosophy about the role of the united states in the world. we had values worth talking about, interests worth defending, but we didn't want to do so at the expense of our young service members, the lives of so many who served our country, unless there was an exceedingly important national history that hadbeen made in that decision. what does a president do? a secretary do? a commander do? they send people into harm's way. one of the things colin powell

taught us is if you're going to send people into harm's way, you'd better have a damn good plan. you'd better have a damn good plan to get them in, achieve their position, maximize their effectiveness and get them out. he wasn't a restraint just for restraint's sake. he wasn't a passivist by any means. he was a four-star general in the united states army. but he believed the exercising of our military power had to be precise and coupled with a diplomatic plan for the day after, and that was one of the key things i think he thought about with the liberation of kuwait in 1991 and also with respect to the iraq war in 2003. i think it's important all of us heed that advice, that guidance of colin powell. again, he wasn't just about pontificating, you know, america will save the world. no, on the contrary. i think he said, we've got a lot

to offer the world, an interest to defend, but, boy, when we use our power, we'd better use it carefully and with position. >> wow. a practical leader, something we don't hear about very often. ambassador, what will you remember most? >> following up on jeremy's point, i think colin powell had a very clear understanding of the distinction between all of america's interests and america's vital national interest. he drew the line that american military power ought to be applied when our vital national power was at stake. >> admiral, when you think about your time knowing him, do you think his sensibility, do you think we still have people with colin powell's integrity, with his love of country, people who

are truly putting country first because when we talk about politicians, we often don't say that. but maybe there are colin powell's serving our country every day and we just don't know them. >> first of all, yes, there are certainly those who are willing to seven the nation and continue do so, i think, very effectively, stephanie, and they are often quiet, uncelebrated, senior military, maybe not at the very top of the chain of command, but those in the middle of the chain of command certainly our soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, in the end, that's the real legacy of colin powell in so many ways is that ethos of service that he brought to our military.

i look at two, gates and panetta. gates worked in the administration, panetta, iconic democrat. there are many role models out there for all of us. it's interesting to see how many colin powell touched. are there those against it? sure. but colin powell is someone who could swim across that sea of partisan divide. that was his gift, his superpower. we ought to emulate it where we can, celebrate it where we see it, and above all over the next few days, we ought to talk about it because it can be part of a process that will improve the united states of america, remembers colin powell. >> amen to that. secretary of defense, lloyd austin just spoke about the life and legacy of colin powell.

let's watch. >> a man who was respected around the globe and will be -- quite frankly, it's not possible to replace a colin powell. we will miss him. again, my thoughts and prayers go out to the family, and we're deeply, deeply saddened to learn of this. thank you. >> we're going to continue to discuss the life and legacy of colin powell throughout the hour and the day. we're going to take a quick break. coming up, more on this breaking news story. former secretary of state colin powell has died at the age of 84. we'll bring you the latest developments next. ext.

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gift with your first box when you enter code free. back now to the breaking news. general colin powell died from complications of covid. he was 48 years old.

former president george w. bush said he was deeply saddened by the death of a man who served as secretary of state. he said he was highly respected at home and abroad and quite simply a great man. joining us now by phone, chief washington correspondent andrea mitchell, nbc reporter dan deluce, kelly o'donnell, and pete williams in our washington bureau. still with us former supreme allied commander admiral james. andrea, talk to us about his legacy and how he shaped our foreign policy. >> it goes beyond.

he was an extraordinary legacy. if you asked him, it won't be the pottery barn or don't exceed your grass. it wouldn't be the mistake over the weapons of mass destruction when we covered him at the u.n. and when he had been with the cia director trying to make sure he got the correct analysis on wmd. he was so suspicious of the rumsfeld/cheney insole lens. he did grieve that mistake terribly, but having covered him as secretary of state and then america's promise initiative, in my most recent conversation with him, it was our discussion of the colin powell institute and what he was doing for first generation students and students of color who echoed his background, coming from the bronx and his role as the child

of jamaican immigrants and how he talked about driving south from new york to visit alma when they were courting and having to, you know, carry your food and make sure you found a rest stop and remember the green book, avoiding anything during jim crow south where he would go south to alabama where he had first met her. he was a veteran of vietnam. came up through the ranks. also worked for cap weinberger, the former defense saer. and when he was omb director and then to captown of security adviser and served republican politics for decades. he was very suspicious of bill clinton as were all the joint chiefs. sam nunn, a fellow white southerner because of bill

clinton's background and avoiding vietnam war. powell's son was injured in germany. he was a family man, grandfather, fighting his way through myeloma and so tragically was being treated for it and then he was taken down by this horrible covid where he was at least double vaccinated. i don't know if he was triple. he was getting best care at walter reed. i think of him at howard university, on the floor of the philadelphia convention, speaking with fellow republicans about affirmative action. i think of those interviews when he decided to endorse barack obama and speak out certainly supporting a democrat against the republicans, a big break for him politically, someone who

once was thought of as a possible candidate for president. and i think of him tinkering with his volvo for years. there are so many ways to think of this man. i apologize for going on for so long, but this is very personal. >> no apology needed. it's rare when you have covered someone for years and years and look up go him as you do. dan, how is the pentagon looking at this this morning? >> very closely. he was a role model for american and african troops in particular. he was there at the table when the u.s. was really at its most successful and powerful. that was during the gulf war, during h.w. bush's administration. he was believing the reporters

and public about the course of the were and the gulf, and there was this quiet confidence and gravitas. i think for the military he represented humility, quiet confidence, and not haphazard interventions. he opposed using the military as a first resort. his notion was you use it as a last resort, and you'd better know how to get out. the iraq war was a painful experience for him, and he had the wellingness to admit it was a blot on his record, the speech he had to make at the unsecurity council making the argument for the invasion of iraq in 2003. he later said he had the wrong information, the information was not solid, but he was willing to admit that and acknowledge that, but i think as a figure, he's also a link back to the republican -- an older republican party that's really gone. at that time during bush,

senior's administration, that was more centrist, much more supportive of the u.s. having a very strong role in the world, diplomatically and otherwise. you could see him becoming alienate and exiled from the party in later years, and as andrea said, he was endorsing democrats at the end, which was kind of unthinkable. keep in mind he was considered a formidable contender for presidency in the '90s. we'll never know, but he had high popularity ratings at the time, and the democrats were concerned he could become the republican nominee. that's one of those what-if questions we'll never know the answer to. >> pete williams, people had difficult relationships with the military. what was colin powell's? >> i was the pentagon spokesman

during the first bush administration when my boss at the time, dick cheney, suggested that he become the chairman of the joint chiefs. moving him ahead of more senior army people who were better thought to be better contenders for the job, obviously it turned out to be a great thing. others did not like the idea of sending reporters over with military units. they were highly resistant to that. i think it was partly general powell's, secretary cheney's decision they would do that and the commanders would not do that. powell was on the phone every day with commanders in the field who were very concerned about how the military operation was going to go. i think you can say the success of desert storm is largely attribuable to colin powell and secretary cheney, but powell

especially for holding people together and getting them through some tough moments. one of the fichblt things he did after he became chairman is he called me at my desk directly and said this is the way to reach me on my desk directly. we have a hot line to call each other on. he was always willing to work with the news media and that sat him apart from others. >> here's my direct number, certainly. kelly, you have covered the white house for many years. colin powell served in five administrations. what can you tell us about him? what was your experience? >> i think today we will hear so many public voices coming forward with their own memories of colin powell and descriptions of his impact on american life. when you consider the kind of service, 35 years in the army, having been at the front lines himself with two tours in vietnam and then commanding other soldiers during the gulf war and then advising

presidents, it's an extraordinary place in american life to have done all of those things and to have been a trail blazer while doing it. and to do it with this demeanor ofcy vilt and quiet demeanor onnen to of the accomplishment and strength there. as dan was saying, a throwback to a different kind of republican party. colin powell struggled, i think, with the political side of being offered considered someone who could be -- certainly in the 1996 campaign, there was talk of him being drafted, encouraged to run. he did not want to d that. but later he used his voice at critical times in politics. i was covered john mccain's 2008 campaign. they were good personal friends. there was a lot of affinity there, mccain having been a navy man of multiple generations and a prisoner of war in veto narjs

felt a close bond and i think was deeply saddened and hurt when powell chose to endorse barack obama, seeing the sweep of history that a first african-american president could become a reality. sort of moving into endorsing democratic candidates after being so closely aligned with republican officials and leaders and administrations. and so he spanned the political spectrum in that way. and then in the most recent several months and the period of the trump years, he was outspoken against donald trump and that kind of republican voice that has taken the party in such a different direction away from the statesman ship of an earlier time. >> kelly, you've been covering the white house for many years. how will you personally remember him? >> i think i'm struck by the fact he brought a sense of humility. when you're the first of many things in public life, it would be easy to take on the enormity

of that, and he never conveyed an impression of being the icon that i think that he was and will be remembered as. so this gentleness. also, as reporters, we sometimes have a more hardened shell because there are many people we have to interact request in our work who don't enjoy dealing with reporters. he never gave that impression. there was always a generosity of spirit, kindness, pleasantness in the way he would interact, a respect for the role we do and the role of the free press in government and in american life, and that was certainly appreciated by all of us who do this work, to have someone who respected the role that we play. so a very kind man devoted to his wife. the way he would look at alma, the way he cared for her in public always struck me. and, of course, today the grief of his family to lose him over

covid-19 after being vaccinated while he was battling a form of cancer, a very sad day for them and a very personal loss for his family, and we certainly send our condolences to them. >> a loss to our country. jeremy, anything you want to add? >> you know, one of the things i think about when i think about colon powell, i think about what he had to overcome. as a young african-american soldier he trained at fort benning in georgia and he was refused service at some of the bars and restaurants that he would go into. for someone like that to overcome overt racism in our country and rise through the ranks of our military, shows, number one, how powerful they can be to advance the careers of young people of color and how important that is, but also shows the character that colin powell had.

and as referenced, people thought he could become president. he was leading in the head to head calls in the hypothetical matchup. he even won the vice presidential primary in new hampshire for the republican party if you can believe it. he got three electoral votes. was the powerful grip colin powell had as someone who could serve our country with such distinction, overcome racism, overcome being from chief immigrants. for colin powell, he has had a lot to teach those of us who have warned in public service and those of us who care about the fate of our country and our world. >> admiral, last point to you? >> optimism. optimism. everything that has been said, i agree with. but he was an optimist. i would see him in tough situations, kind of a smile on his face, thinking through the

problem. second point, stephanie, master communicator, someone who could move the message. and his message, what was in his heart, was the united states of america, was a sense of optimism for our country. a centrist view, one that could stand the political divide. he was an extraordinary man in every way, but i'll remember and hope to em plate in a small way that kind of optimism for our country and that ability to communicate it. he was remarkable. >> remark in every way. thank you all so much. we're going to stay on this breaking news. former secretary of state colin powell has died at the age of 84. plus, when we come back, 25-year-old ahmad arbery was killed in georgia in february of

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developing this morning jury selection has started in georgia. the 25-year-old black man was gunned down while jogging after being followed by father and son in their pickup truck in february of 2020. a third man filmed the devastating shooting. they say they believed arbery was a burglar in the neighborhood. joining us now is the mother of ahmaud arbery and the family attorney. first i want to say i'm so sorry for your unimaginable loss. for the jury selection under way, what does justice look like for you? >> justice looks like all three defendants going to jail forever. >> talk to us about what the last year and a half has been like for you without your son?

>> i lost ahmaud back on the 23rd of february. immediately after ahmaud was killed, i had questions with no answers. prior to the arrests, the horrifying video came out showing the last minutes of ahmaud's life. today i'm very, very thankful i've reached a stage where they're picking a jury. i say put them behind bars forever. >> what are you paying attention to as this trial begins? >> well, there's going to be a lot of people that need to respond to jury summons. a thousand jury summons were issued. it's going to be difficult to find a group of people who have never heard of the case, but certainly we want to be sure that the people who are added to

the jury don't hold any bias, that people of color aren't being inappropriately stricken from the jury by virtue of being people of color alone. we want to see a fair, well balanced jury. >> do you think there will be a fair trial? >> i think the people of glenn county have already proved their commitment to justice. we saw one voted out of office and the laws change in georgia, and that's because the people of glenn county stood out. i believe they can do justice here in a trial as well. >> wanda, what do you want us to know about your son? >> ahmaud wasn't just a young man who had chose on the go jogging on a sunday afternoon. ahmaud was my baby boy, a brother, an uncle, grandson. to some, ahmad was loved by so

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helped shape u.s. national security and foreign policy over decades. both as joint chiefs of staff and no one was hurt adviser, and of course, as secretary of state. you know, i come from a foreign service family. and he is somebody who valued the expertise and knowledge of men and women in the state department. he didn't always have to agree with secretary powell, but he was somebody who always cared for his country and did his very best. >> he certainly did. i want to turn now and talk about president biden's agenda, the latest where me stand on the spending bill. we know that the president has met with progressives, he has met with moderates. there's a lot happening on both sides. but at this point, the two sides don't agree. bernie sanders writing op-eds in west virginia papers makes a lot of news, but it doesn't make any progress. at this point, does the white house this week need to get

bernie sanders, kyrsten sinema, joe manchin all in the same room and hash this thing out? >> so, stephanie, definitely, we have to make a lot of progress this week. i'm not sure about putting everybody in the same room, but what i think what the president needs to do is get everybody in the white house, maybe put the different groups in different rooms, and then engage in shuttle diplomacy. but certainly, tell everybody they can't leave until we get to "yes." we've got to get this done. we need a framework of the build back better agenda, an agreed-upon framework, certainly in the coming weeks, so we can get this bill over the finish line by mid-november at the latest. >> generally speaking, the bill taxes the rich, but one of the takeaways is there's still a lot of loopholes in there. and democrats win and republicans win and lose, but mega-rich donors seem to always win. and i have a hard time finding lawmakers who will talk about loopholes. for example, the 1031 exchange,

which is a huge giveaway, a hook up to commercial real estate companies. in normal times, every lawmaker i talk to say, we've got to get rid of that. here we are. it's not being touched. where do you stand on it? >> well, stephanie, i think we need to look at all of those issues. that, but also the carried interest loophole -- >> but on this one specifically, where do you stand? >> i think there are ways to address it without necessarily getting rid of it entirely. but my overall point here is when it comes to large areas of raising revenue, from individuals who actually have most of the state, you've got to look at the intergenerational transfer of big wealth. and that is the area that we are focused on. we do not have all 50 senators onboard yet, but all of this needs to be on the table, stephanie.

i think at the end of the day, we are going to be able to find a way to take this through tax reform on the kind of things you're talking about, but also on the corporate tax side enclosed in these loopholes that multi-national corporations have employed by parking their assets overseas. but bottom line is we have to get to "yes," because every member to have the democratic caucus recognizes the failures. >> but we say in general terms, these things have to be ant table, but they're not. carried interest is still in there. 1031 is still in there. do you think something is going to change between now and these things getting passed? >> i think we'll come up with a tax reform package that definitely pays for the costs of the build back better agenda. so as president biden has made clear, it will be deficit neutral. and it will be done by making our tax code more fair for more

americans. exactly which ingredients are in that remains up to debate. but as you know, there are lots of moving parts here, including the climate change piece, including extending the child tax credit into the future. and the bottom line is, this is a huge deal for the american people, but we've got to get it over the finish line. >> i want to switch gears for a moment and ask about voting rights, because isn't it the single most important thing above everything else? all of these policies sound great, they're important, but none of them will matter if our democracy stops functioning. right now, one in three americans think the last election was stolen, and people who believe that are taking over election jobs across the country. i know there's going to be a vote on wednesday, but most likely, it is not going to pass. in the event it doesn't, what are you going to do? >> well, first of all, you're

absolutely right. our democracy is under attack. we saw it in violent form on january 6th, when the mob attacked the capitol with the goal of overturning the election. and that didn't work. we've seen state legislatures try to block access to voting. so we need a national system that is the freedom to vote act. and stephanie, the bottom line is, in order to get this passed, we do need to change the filibuster rule and make sure that we don't allow this archaic feature in the united states senate to prevent us from saving our democracy. it's as simple as that. >> if our democracy doesn't work, nothing else does. senator, thank you so much for joining me this morning. i appreciate it. and any minute now, former president donald trump is scheduled to sit for a videotaped deposition, testifying under oath at trump tower. the deposition is part of a case brought by people involved in this demonstration that took place outside trump tower back

in 2015. right after these pictures were taken, members of trump's own security team allegedly assaulted the protesters in an attempt to break things up. the protesters say trump and specifically his rhetoric about mexican immigrants laid the groundwork for the attack. it is one of ten civil cases against trump, and that is on top of the criminal investigations that are going on in new york, d.c., and georgia. i want to dig deeper and bring in tom winter, who is covering the deposition. tom, on my drive into work today, i saw the reporters lined up in front of trump tower. not something i have seen for many months. what's going to happen today? >> well, this deposition, stephanie, should begin any moment, frankly. it's going to be videotaped. it's going to be at trump's towers and the headquarters of his business in his former residence. so i think one of the things that we should hear about is at some point, we'll see some filings related to today's deposition in this case and in this case docket, but we shouldn't probably see the

president's video deposition until and if there is a jury trial. of course, some of it could be included in future legal filings. the real goal here today, i think, for the attorneys representing these six individuals who say they were assaulted outside of trump tower on september 3rd and 2015, is to establish that the president is personally liable for this. the president's wallets are obviously pretty thick. and so i think for them to be able to establish that he oversaw these employees, that they were allowed to use force in the process of doing their jobs, and that they were on the job when this occurred is really what they need to establish here. so i think that's going to be their focus, steph. >> how difficult is that going to be? anyone who has covered donald trump or worked for donald trump will tell you, he specializes in not having his fingerprints on anything. >> what's interesting here are two things. one is new york state law, and the other is what has already occurred in this case. so they already have from depositions taken from keith shiller, trump's former bodyguard and right-hand man, him saying, look, you know, i

was allowed to use force. yes, i was employed by the trump organization. no, i did not actually have a proper new york state guard's license, and yes, i considered involving the nypd to clear out these protesters before deciding not to. so i think those are all important things and have already been established in his deposition and in other filings that are contained in the case docket. the second thing is that new york state law and the courts have determined that trump is vicariously responsible, potentially, when somebody's official duties, which is using force, which is clearing people out, providing security, are something -- is an act that they do while they are employed by the trump organization, by the president, and by the trump campaign. so i think that's going to be something that obviously is going to require a little bit more information finding, a little bit more fact finding and this deposition will go a long way. i'm sure the attorneys for the plaintiffs will hope in establishing that. but that's really the key here

going forward. and i think in time, we'll figure out if that is, in fact, the case. >> in time. tom winter, thank you. and thank you so much for watching. that wraps up this hour. please, stick with msnbc as we remember the life and extraordinary legacy of general colin powell. i'm stephanie ruhle. thank you for watching. jose diaz-balart picks up coverage right now. good morning. it's 10:00 a.m. eastern, 7:00 a.m. pacific. i'm jose diaz-balart and we begin with breaking news. the death of colin powell, one of the most respected military and diplomatic leaders in recent history. powell's family says the first black secretary of state and first black chairman of the joint chiefs of staff died this morning at walter reed national military medical center near washington. he died from complications of covid-19, even though he had been fully vaccinated. colin powell was 84 years old. former president george w. bush, who