some top line on that massive reconciliation package, hovering around $2 trillion, maybe a tick under, that will allow progressives to feel satisfied enough with it to then vote for the bipartisan infrastructure deal. that at least is the plan. look for that this week or next before the president heads to europe. thank you all for getting up "way too early" on this wednesday morning. "morning joe," perhaps with a discussion of a bad call at home plate, starts right now. breaking ball just missed. tried to backdoor the breaking ball. we talked about it earlier in the series. five pitches, at least 10% or more, and he throws all of them for strikes. best strike thrower on the roster. >> controversy at fenway in the pivotal ninth inning last night. i suspect there's going to be

heavy discussion this morning. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." wednesday, october 20th. along with joe, mika, and me, we have former u.s. senator and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill. with the "associated press," jonathan lemire. i didn't see it live. i watched it for the first time. >> do you know how tired we are? >> tied at two with two outs at the top of the inning, right? >> yes. >> that looked like a strike to me, even to this yankee fan. >> it was a strike. he threw the perfect pitch. it painted the corner. that was two strikes, two outs, out of the inning. except he wasn't. it was yet another blown call last night. there was a blown call against martinez for strike three at a critical point that was so bad, alex cora did something he rare

-- rarely does. he ran out on the field and almost got kicked out. when i coach, when i talk to fans, i say, willie, bad calls happen. if one bad call going to cost you the game, well, you just didn't play well enough. >> exactly. >> you can never put it in an ump's hands. never put it in a ref's hands. there are always blown calls. that one was particularly bad at a particularly bad time. you could also look back and see how lucky we got against the rays. an extraordinary team. we had a ball bounce off of the chest, goes over, and in effect, at a critical time in that series, put us through. that said, this is a bigger discussion. i tweeted earlier in the evening, claire, and i don't know if you agree or not, but i tweeted earlier in the evening after a number of just horrific, bad calls, that now the u.s. open is using automated line

judges. gets the call right every time. i've never seen as many bad calls this year from umpires. every time there is a bad call against the red sox, i'm about to say, boy, we're really getting ripped off in this game, our opponents will have two or three horrible, bad calls against them. the strike zone, it's some of the worst umping i've ever seen in my life behind home plate. it's time to do what tennis does and automate. i know a lot of people in payable want that to happen. these guys are missing calls all the time. >> yeah. i think it will happen. remember, joe, one of the reasons we see the bad calls is because the technology has gotten so good, in terms of us being able to second-guess the umps after they've made a call. let me say for a moment, too, i know to all the fans, and believe me, as a cardinal fan, i complain about bad calls too, but if you're in a championship series, it really -- the

psychology of focusing on this one pitch is not a winning strategy for the red sox. they're tied 2-2. there were many pitches last night that could have made the difference. who knows if that would have been called a strike, if they would have done on and been able to win the game in the bottom of the ninth. they very easily could have not scored in the bottom of the ninth. maybe the astros would have scored in the top of the tenth. so i think it is really unfortunate. by the way, this guy's strike goes home as loosey-goosey all night. there were bad calls on both sides. no question about it. >> no doubt. i agree, jonathan lemire, we shouldn't focus on this. alex, i want to slow this down. >> frame by frame. >> actually, alex, frame by frame. let's go frame by frame. actually, alex, playing this as a joke, but, boy, that sure was a strike, look at that. i guess you have to do what you have to do to let the astros go in. you want this thing to go to game seven.

could we keep playing that? take that off for one second. so, lemire, if we weren't on the show. stop playing that. if we weren't on the show and not having a little fun with this, you and i would say, as we were saying last nighttime and time again, the red sox had opportunities. time and time again, the red sox blew opportunities. they weren't hitting the ball. they didn't bring runners home. great pitching, but if any team lost that game last night and deserved to lose, it was the red sox. they just never came through in one clutch moment after another. >> i'm currently debating whether to take the high road or the low road about that call. i will simply say this. diaz was terrible last night, the home plate umpire. to claire's point, missed calls all night, not just against the red sox. that one, of course, is highlighted because it was in a

big spot. potentially changed the game and the series. you're right, red sox scored two in the first. bogaerts hit a two-run homer. didn't again the rest of the game after the offensive onslaught in games two and three with multiple grand slams. they simply didn't hit. they left guys on base. squandered a one-out triple. another from bogaerts. they didn't get it done. pitching was good. it worked out for most of it. whitlock, who has been so good, gave up the game-tying home run to altuve who is not a fan favorite at fenway, to the point where fox repeatedly had to drop the audio of their broadcasts because of the chants from the crowd. >> exactly, yeah. >> yeah, they didn't hit. then the ninth inning just snowballed. this is now pivotal game five. i don't think either team feels particularly good about their pitching. even with chris sale on the mound, he is not the same guy right now. >> you know, willie, actually, it's funny. we've been talking for six

minutes about a game that, while obviously red sox fans were close to and intense about, we had buried the lead seven minutes in by not talking about a playoff game that i suspect people will be talking about for quite a few years. >> yeah. >> what happened on the west coast. the braves had pushed the dodgers to the wall 2-0 last year. the braves pushed the dodgers to the wall 2-0 this year. they're ahead 5-2. then the ninth inning. just a spectacular game. eighth inning, i'm sorry. a spectacular game, willie. take us through it. >> it's 5-2, braves, bottom of the eighth inning. cody bellinger has two strikes on him. gets in front of a high fastball. three-run home run ties the game. the place absolutely erupts in an afternoon game out in los angeles. now, the braves were up 22-0 in

the series. five outs from going up 3-0 which, historically, pains me to say, is almost impossible to come back. pains me because something happened in 2004. if they go down 3-0, the series is all but over and the braves are rolling into the world series. now, all of a sudden, it is 2-1. the dodgers have some momentum here. they won the game with that hit a little later in the inning. >> that's mookie betts with the game winner. >> there he is, there's mookie. >> our friend mookie to make it 6-5. yeah, can't be said enough. dodgers put up two in the first and left the bases loaded. you felt, they're going to roll. give the braves credit. they came back, took the lead, bullpen was great. they had a 5-2 lead. they're five outs away from just seizing control of this series. the underdog braves here against 106-win dodger team. then it just so quickly disappeared. the series could have potentially changed here, too. a pivotal point. you know, now 2-1. dodgers home again today and tomorrow could theoretically grab control of the series.

>> joe, you at fenway could use a clutch guy like mookie betts in your lineup. >> that's great. great we have him. wait a second, no. we have good guys in the lineup. when you have jd batting sixth, you're doing fine, as my grandmom would say from dalton, georgia. that's gracious plenty. claire mccaskill, i want to talk about the ball though. cody bellinger hit. i didn't say strike. it wasn't close. that was a foot above the strike zone. he made it look so easy, like a meat pitch. this was a hard pitch to catch up to. man, he did it and crushed it. >> yeah, it is kind of cruel when you talk about the dodgers and their clutch hitting at key moments in important games. because the way they beat up in the wild card game was a heartbreaker. it happened very similarity at the very end of the game, in a

way that dodgers fans had the right to go nuts. i think the dodgers come back and take this thing. i really do. i will be shocked if this wasn't the moment that the series turned around. i'm in the sure who is going to win the other one, but i think the dodgers will be in the world series. >> exactly what mika said last night. of course, she's followed bellinger's career from the very start. last night before he came up, she said, he's going yard. the dodgers, they're going to the world series. i'm like, what? where are you seeing this? what are you talking about? sure enough, once again, mika is right. why don't we go to the news, mika? >> yeah. >> i know this bores you. >> we're a little blurry eyed this morning. for some reason, they like to watch in the bedroom, joe and jack. >> he got his lucky chair. >> yes, he does. >> lucky chair. he got up last night in the eighth inning. he wanted to go to sleep for school. i said, jack, sit down. he got up and walked out of the room. >> look what happened.

>> jack. to the news now. the house select committee -- >> i mean, my 13-year-old is not welcome in boston for a couple months probably. >> definitely not. >> okay. >> house select committee investigating the january 6th insurrection is unanimous in its vote to hold former trump adviser steve bannon in contempt of congress. house majority leader hoyer announced the full house will vote tomorrow on whether to refer bannon to the justice department, which will then decide whether to charge him. a conviction could mean a year in jail and a fine of up to $100,000. but legal scholars point out that in past instances, no criminal charges have ever been filed when an assertion of executive privilege is involved. in her opening statement yesterday, congresswoman liz cheney, who serves as vice chair of the house select committee, called on her fellow republicans to support the work of the panel.

>> because he is categorically refused to appear, we have no choice but to seek consequences for mr. bannon's failure to comply. those consequences are not just important for this investigation. they are important for all congressional investigations. almost every one of my colleagues knows in your hearts that what happened on january 6th was profoundly wrong. you all know that there is no evidence of widespread election fraud sufficient to have changed the results of the election. you know these claims are false. yet former president trump repeats them almost daily. he has now urged republicans not to vote in 2022 and 2024. this is a prescription for national self-destruction. i ask my colleagues, please

consider the fundamental questions of right and wrong here. the american people must know what happened. they must know the truth. all of us who are elected officials must do our duty to prevent the dismantling of the rule of law and to ensure that nothing like that dark day in january ever happens again. >> claire mccaskill, liz cheney restating something we've heard her say many times before to no effect on all those republicans she stands on an island almost with adam kinzinger and a couple others in condemning what happened january 6th and the efforts of trying to overturn the election. in terms of steve bannon and what we know about him, why they're holding him in contempt, we know he was behind the stop the steal movement. he is in the hotel january 5th. he was on his podcast on january

the 5th saying tomorrow is game day. quote, all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. he is someone who needs to be called before the committee. >> listen, i want to really emphasize this. i think it is easy for us to get distraktd disabstract -- distracted and think about donald trump. steve bannon was a private citizen, not a member of government. talk about unprecedented, talk about something that never happened, a private citizen never hid behind the personal wishes of a defeated president in order to avoid the oversight of congress. but this moment, i want the republicans on the hill to remember, this is about congressional power. this moment is not about donald trump. it's not about republicans and democrats. it's about whether or not we have three branches of government. because if steve bannon can get away with this, congress has no oversight capability whatsoever. they are toothless. and that means if the republicans are in charge or the

democrats are in charge, it means any private citizen can hide behind a bogus excuse to actually respond to a subpoena from congress. unanimously issued subpoena by both republicans and democrats. so i hope the members take a really gut-check moment and realize what they're doing if they do not hold this guy in criminal contempt. they're giving away their power in an unprecedented fashion in this country. >> no question that steve bannon was a private citizen at that point, likely wearing many shirts. >> definitely. >> while he was plotting the stop the steal movement. certainly, joe, to claire's point, democrats i've talked to, who are watching these with growing worry that there won't be enough teeth to the measures here, that if they do let this go, if criminal charges aren't referred for bannon and potential others who may also not cooperate -- and bannon, by the way, i talked to people close to him, he welcomes this, seeing it as an ability to be a martyr for the maga movement.

he wouldn't be disappointed to have this go further. if it were to fizzle out here, there is a sense that democrats, it's losing a chance to be a co-equal branch of government. congress suggesting it'll play second role to the white house going forward, becoming that much more dangerous for, democrats think, a republican president who might come next, particularly if the president is donald trump again who, right now, would be the gop front-runner by any measure. the thought being that if at that point, he feels that congress can be ignored and unchecked and unfettered from any congressional oversight, they worry, joe, what that could lead to. >> what is just the latest chapter in trump associates ignoring congressional subpoenas. during the trump administration, while he was in the white house, time and again, elijah cummings would send subpoenas over. the trump white house would ignore them. a staff member would ask, what in the world? did this happen back when you were up there?

no, it didn't happen so much. subpoenas actually meant something. but they did not for the trump administration. they certainly don't, apparently, to steve bannon. this isn't about steve bannon. it's not about whether steve bannon will rejoice in being a martyr. he can do his podcast from prison and make the most of it. it's not about whether they play into his hand or not. it's what claire said. you either have a first branch of government that is a co-equal branch with the second and third branch or you don't. >> right. >> for too long, mika, you've had the white house running over congress. that has been, from both sides through the years, particularly bad as far as subpoenas go over the past four or five years. steve bannon doesn't have executive privilege to claim. it's not a legitimate claim. he can't use it. he has to comply with the

subpoena. >> all of this -- >> if he doesn't comply with the subpoena, congress needs to enforce the subpoena. >> it does. if you back up the fact we're even arguing over this, the fact that january 6th is an issue some think was not a big deal is -- it's a bad turn for this country. i hope accountability can win the day. the fda may pave the way today for americans to mix and match covid vaccine boosters. at the same time, the agency could authorize boosters for the moderna and johnson & johnson vaccines by the end of the day. a source confirms the process needs to move forward urgently to give doctors flexibility and, in part, because people have already started mixing boosters on their own. the pfizer vaccine could be approved for children ages 5 to 11 in the coming weeks. game-changer. the white house is expected to

announce a plan to get millions of children vaccinated before the holiday travel rush. nbc news gained exclusive access to a major part of the plan. here to break it down is correspondent heidi pinterest -- przybyla. >> reporter: the white house is going to be rolling out an initiative ahead of this expected emergency use authorization of the vaccine for children ages 5 to 11. the white house realizes we are at a crossroads and we cannot get back to normal in this country unless we have a significant number of children vaccinated. even though we have a lot of vaccinated parents out there, not all of them according to the surveys they've been looking at are planning to immediately vaccinate their kids. what are they doing here? they want to set up an infrastructure where they're going to partner with children's hospitals, at least 100 to 200 of them all across the country,

to set up vaccine clinics within those hospitals. this is importantly going to look very different than the drive to vaccinate adults, where we had fama setting up drive-through clinics. this is something the states and health officials have been calling for. take a listen to what some of the doctors on the front lines are saying. >> a sustainable control of this disease is not possible without covering children. the math doesn't add up. that's the secondary reason. but it has a benefit not just to adults if children get vaccinated but for children themselves. so return to normal impacts children themselves. their own education but also their entertainment and normal life. so they are part of the society, and they have a stake in normalization. >> the kids have done a beautiful job protecting older people throughout the whole

year, right? it makes me emotional to think about how exciting it must be for them to get access to this. it is certainly something people need to consider. when we plan for the holidays. >> reporter: the coordination, mika, will be on access, messaging, all these things,s and timing couldn't be more important. when you look at when the eua is expected the first week of november, it comes weeks before the thanksgiving holiday rush. what we saw this last month was september was one of the worst months for children and covid. the white house wanting people to take this seriously, to get their kids vaccinated as soon as possible before the holiday rush. >> yeah, that would make a big difference. >> it would. thank you so much, heidi. greatly appreciate your reporting. we thank you so much. mika, when there are people who in the past asked, shouldn't have asked it, but wait a second, why should kids get

vaccinated if kids don't get it as much? of course this is silly. >> especially the delta, they do. >> why do we vaccinate children for polio and all the other vaccines they get before going to school? you want to do it and make it as widespread to provide as much protection as possible. but in this case, you and i have a family member who had a granddaughter go to party. came back from that birthday party and gave her mother, father, grandmother, grandfather, and a grandparent on the other side, gave them all covid because there was a child at the party that had covid. so, of course, every child, willie, is not going to be vaccinated. i'm sure some won't. but the more that can be vaccinated, the more protection not just for those children but, just as importantly, for their family members, for their loved

ones, for the community they move in. >> yeah. i think colin powell's death was a wake-up call for a lot of people. those of us -- i know you have it. i have it in my life. a mother, father, grandparents who are compromised in some way. their immune systems. double vaccinated, doing the right things, but we've let our guard down the last several months. we know it can be dangerous for people we love. you raised a good point, joe, about whether kids are going to get vaccinated. there are about 70 million eligible americans in this country, adults, who have not yet been vaccinated. if they're not getting vaccinated because they don't believe in the vaccine or think it is dangerous because of something they read on facebook, they're certainly not allowing their children to have the vaccine. once it becomes available and approved, it'll be interesting to see how many kids actually are vaccinated and whether schools mandate it. >> joe, why delta exists, why monster variants could exist is because of the unvaccinated.

the virus gets worse if you have a good deal of the population that's unvaccinated. >> right. >> the math is simple. we still struggle. >> we've had health care officials warning about this for six months now. yes, we need to get the vaccination rates up, as close to 100% as we can in the united states. if we really want to go after the variants that we've seen, how much worse the delta variant is, if we want to prevent other variants from sweeping across the world and coming to us, we're going to also have to have a vaccination plan that aggressively vaccinates people across the world. again, to stop variants from coming into this country and causing the wide spread sickness and death. >> more later. coming up on "morning joe," other headlines making news this morning. new polling shows most republicans don't consider the january 6th insurrection an

attack on the government. we're going to dig into the new number on that. we're also be joined by congresswoman elaine luria who sits on the house committee investigating january 6th. plus, assistant speaker katherine clark will weigh in on where reconciliation negotiations stand on capitol hill. another bad headline for facebook. the social media giant admits to letting users share information about human smuggling. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. vo: it's always been true, that each generation has a moment to make sure it's leaving the world a better place for future generations. and right now is our moment. climate change has reached a crisis point. our very way of life is at risk. members of congress you have a chance, right now, to pass a plan that finally takes it on.

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29 past the hour. we're a look at some of the stories making headlines this morning. negotiations continue days after an armed gang kidnapped a group of american and canadian missionaries in haiti.

the notorious gang is demanding $17 million for their release. $1 million per hostage. there are five children in the group. the youngest is just 8 months old. earlier this week, white house press secretary jen psaki announced the fbi is working with haitian officials on negotiations to free the group. kidnappings have spiked in haiti since the country's president was assassinated in july. facebook is facing backlash yet again for admitting it allowed users to request information about how to be smuggled into the country. the company confirmed the policy after arizona's attorney general requested information on reports that drug cartels and human smugglers were advertising on facebook. >> i'm sorry. could you say that again? you said drug cartels -- >> yeah, and human smugglers. >> human traffickers were

advertising on facebook. wait a second. hold on a second. so you're saying -- >> yeah. >> -- that drug cartels and human traffickers were using facebook and advertising on facebook. >> listen to their statement. >> and facebook allowed drug cartels -- >> correct. >> -- and human traffickers to -- >> to exchange info. >> -- advertise and use facebook. >> they didn't promote it, they say, but here's the statement. we do allow people to share information. >> drug cartels. >> about how to enter a country illegally. >> human trafficking. >> or request information about how to be smuggled. after consultation with human rights experts, we developed this policy to ensure we are prohibiting content related to the business of human smuggling but not interfering with people's ability to seek asylum. facebook, joe, they create this business and they set it up, and

then after they find out, like, rapes and murders and human smuggling, things like that that come along with it are happening, they dial back. it's just not -- i don't know -- i don't understand why they have the power to have all sorts of nasty things happening, that they just go, oops, oh, so sorry. i think we'll try to stop that. >> if i could just modify one part of your statement. >> sure. >> it's not after they find out that this is going on. >> oh, okay. >> because they keep taking the money. >> mm-hmm. >> they keep making their billions. >> good point. >> mark zuckerberg keeps -- he's what, $110 billion, $120 billion now? probably pays about 5% in income taxes. no. they don't correct themselves after they find out about this. it's only after they're caught. willie, there was a story several weeks ago about the fact

that facebook was warned sfr -- for some time that this was happening, and they continued to allow it to happen. it's like when somebody high up at the office in facebook leading up to the 2016 election warned about russian interference. afterwards when sheryl sandberg had to go to the board and talk about 2016 and russian interference, how the russians ran ads to interfere with american democracy. it was sheryl sandberg, according to the "new york times," that took that facebook executive out and started screaming at him for telling the facebook board the truth about a foreign adversary interfering with american democracy. let's just set this straight again. sheryl sandberg, when confronted

with this information, and when somebody had the audacity to actually tell the facebook board the extent of russian interference in american democracy in 2016, her response was not to be shocked and stunned and deeply saddened, it was actually scream at this person, this truth-teller that actually let the board in on their dirty little secret. same thing here. they never self-correct, it seems. they always have to -- >> never accountable. >> -- get caught. then they try to self-correct. >> remember, mark zuckerberg was sitting before congress saying that instagram and many facebook products actually have healthy impacts, in many ways, on young girls and young women. all the while, we now know because of a whistle-blower who left facebook but worked there, leaked documents to the "wall street journal" and testified herself before congress, that facebook, through internal

presentations, knew about the impacts on young girls. they're happy to have these studies internally, ignore them, and publicly say, "no, actually, we don't know about any of this stuff." as a matter of fact, it's the opposite of what you're saying it is. claire mccaskill, i guess the question we've been asking a long time as executives come before congress is, what can the government do about a problem like facebook? a company that big, what is reasonable to expect? what should be done, if anything? >> well, this is what happens when congress, at the very infancy of the internet, decided to step aside and not put any guardrails in. the thought at the time was, oh, well, we don't want to do anything to hinder this wide open space that could be an economic engine for our country. so congress did something that is always dangerous. they basically gave all these companies immunity. that's what we're living with now. we're living with a business

model -- >> that's what they have. >> -- that rewards clicks and engagement. it comes from two things, people being frightened and mad. so when that is the business model, you're going to have this runaway freight train that is smashing people's rights in many ways. so congress has to step in at this point. because let's just assume. i mean, facebook is in crisis, no question, but there will be another company that would come behind it if congress doesn't do something. congress will have to regulate and make these companies have the same rules of the road that newspapers and other media outlets have. >> all right. the ntsb is now trying to figure out why a plane crashed just after takeoff near houston yesterday. it burst into flames, but all 21 people on board were able to get off. nbc news correspondent tom costello has more. >> reporter: moments of sheer

terror. >> it is a passenger airplane. >> reporter: it happened after 10:00 a.m. a private passenger plane fully engulfed in flames at houston's executive airport. as emergency teams quickly converged on the scene. >> 19 people on board, possibly 21 people on board. there are multiple people off the plane. >> reporter: amazingly, everyone escaped. three crew members and 18 passengers. the youngest a 10-year-old child. two people suffered minor injuries. >> they were stunned. they were very, very stunned, but they did all self-extricate. we can't tell you how they did that. >> reporter: authorities say the plane, md-87 registered to a local investment firm, was thought to be headed to boston for tonight's baseball playoff game between the astros and red sox, but the plane never got off the ground. >> airplane rolled down the runway, struck an actual fence, and from there, became disabled. >> reporter: the plane involved 23 yea 34 years old.

no u.s. airline flies the md series of airplane. what is found could be crucial to the foreign airlines that still fly it. tom costello, nbc news, washington. >> frightening. >> boy, thank god, thank god for all of those people that were able to get off that plane safely. my gosh. coming up, house committee tasked with voting to hold steve bannon in contempt of congress. a member of that select committee, congresswoman elaine luria, joins us next on "morning joe." what the world needs now... is people. people who see things... just a little bit differently. who go out of their way to find a new perspective and a new way forward. because seeing a smarter, healthier, cleaner world isn't something that's far in the future.

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do not consider the events of january 6th an attack on the u.s. government. overall, 59% of those polled say the government was attacked that day. but two-thirds of republicans say it was not. just 29% of republicans say the storming of the capitol was an attack on the government. joining us now, member of the select committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol, and it was an attack, democratic congresswoman elaine luria of virginia. she's a retired navy commander and vice chair of the house armed services committee. i'm not going to, you know, play the game as to whether or not this was an attack on our democracy, on the capitol. it was. the pictures prove it. the video proves it. everything around it proves it. let me ask this, about accountability, where does it end, and does it end at not being able to compel people to

testify? will we hear testimony from steve bannon? >> well, what i'll say is that i think they sent a clear message yesterday with the 9-0 vote from the committee, and the vote coming up this thursday on the house floor will show we're going to use every tool available to us to push this forward. and compel not just steve bannon but future witnesses who attempt to evade subpoenas. he stands alone. there have been 11 subpoenas issued, and he is the only one who has come forward, claimed this, you know, really false and -- >> executive privilege. >> yes. >> so you say you want to use every tool available, and i just wonder, are we going to discover that there are not enough tools? i mean, what exactly will compel him to testify if he refuses? >> well, the pressure of a

criminal contempt charge. we will refer this ultimately to the department of justice. there's fins involved. there's up to a year in prison. he is not acting like someone who has, you know, nothing to hide. i mean, if you didn't have anything to hide, why would you be going to such extremes to evade this subpoena and to, you know, not appear, to use these claims of privilege? which, you know, if you look into the nature of this lawsuit, for example, that the president has put forward to the archives, bannon's lawyers are trying to use that to say that he doesn't need to testify. he wasn't an employee of the government. he wasn't a government official since 2017. yet, he is using every possible thing he can to try to evade appearing before congress. like i said, he is an outlier. the others who have been, you know, subpoenaed and summoned and asked to bring testimony and documents up to this point are cooperating with the committee and making arrangements to do that. >> congresswoman, we're talking about the mechanics of the subpoena here, but let's talk about the substance of why you want to talk to steve bannon and what he knew, what he did in the

days leading up to january 6th, where he was that day, and his general push to, as they call it, stop the steal, that fraudulent chant they'd have in the name of a movement to overturn the election. what do you know about steve bannon, and what do you want to ask him? >> well, he made some very clear public statements that, you know, this upcoming event, rally on january 6th was going to be extraordinary. it's not going to be what you expect. patriots, you've made this happen. fill in the plank. made what happen? there was obviously something that was a clear plan for events to happen that day. we need to fill in the blanks. we need to understand what conversations he had with other people, with the planners of the events, with potentially any of these groups, oathkeepers, 3 percenters, proud boys, those who have been -- implicated throughout the day. ultimately, what conversations did we have with the former president before this

extraordinary event and overrunning of the capitol happened. >> as you say, he made a lot of public remarks on january 5th. on his podcast he said, tomorrow is game day and, quote, all hell breaks loose tomorrow. congresswoman liz cheney, republican of wyoming, she tried again to compel some of her republican colleagues who have lined up with donald trump and willing to look the other way about what happened on january 6th to be honest about what happened that day. to take seriously the investigation. i know you talked to a lot of republicans privately. you work with them on legislation. you all have relationships up on the hill. do they concede to you privately, congresswoman, that, yes, of course january 6th was a terrible day and that, yes, of course, donald trump himself and many people in his administration had something to do with it and, in fact, led it in many cases? do they say those things to you in private? because they don't in public. >> i wouldn't say they go as far as you went in your description, but i certainly feel from my

conversations with them that, you know, they're frustrated, but they found themselves, you know, stuck. i wish more of them would have the moral courage that liz cheney, adam, others who had the moral courage to say something. it's not about a potential re-election of this man in 2024. it is about preserving democracy and, you know, all of these people and all of this was involved in a very clear attempt to attack the process of certifying the election results. this is a big lie. it is a big lie. you know, it's never too late. i really admire liz cheney. i appreciate the fact she made the comments last night. she's calling on colleagues, saying it's okay to join me. we're going to get to the truth in this committee, and you want to be on the right side of history when this is done. >> member of the house select committee investigating the january 6th attack of the

capitol, congresswoman elaine luria, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. still ahead, dozens of lawsuits have been filed across the country by people trying to force hospitals to provide evermectim. also, bill de blasio will be with us to discuss vaccine mandates. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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53 past the hour. the u.s. supreme court declined to block a state order in maine requiring health care workers to receive a covid vaccination, at least for now. justice stephen breyer, who is handling injunctions for the region, denied an emergency request to stop enforcement of

the mandate. but in a brief order, breyer said challenges could try again after a federal appeals court rules on the issue or if it fails to act by october 29th. health care workers are contesting the order because it does not include a religious exemption. >> it is interesting. mississippi and some other states that were bragging pre-covid about how they had the highest vaccination rates in america, for vaccinations we've all been taking for 50 years, they don't allow a religious exemption. never have. they thought it was people using an excuse to get out of the vaccines. that's, of course, back when leaders in states like mississippi made fun of people on the far left for being vaccine hesitant. >> at least two dozen lawsuits have been filed across the u.s. demanding covid patients be treated be ivermectin.

to date, trials have not determined whether the drug, primarily used to de-worm animals, is effective or safe for covid treatment. joining us is state attorney for palm beach, david aronberg. >> great to have you with us. there was a line in the palm beach gardens case where the judge said, in effect, you have no constitutional right to replace your own medical judgment with that of someone who is actually a medical professional. >> yeah, how about that, joe? good morning, joe and mika. patients do have the right to accept or reject medical treatment, but they have no right under the law or the constitution to require doctors and hospitals to administer a drug against their own medical judgment. even when it comes to terminally ill patients, they even don't have the right to get experimental drugs. do we want judges to perform

oversight duties with veto power over doctors? they are jds, not mds, for a reason. go down the slippery slope at a time like this, when people are getting medical information from joe rogan instead of dr. fauci, and it is a dangerous time. but in this case, joe, in the palm beach gardens, it was an easier case than some of the others. because in this case, the plaintiff in the hospital reached an agreement to give the plaintiff's wife some ivermectin. but the deal fell through when the plaintiff wanted a higher dose than the hospital was going to provide. so this case was as much about the dosage of ivermectin than whether it was going to be given. you can see why the judge wanted no part of this medical micromanagement. >> yeah. no doubt about it. claire mccaskill is with us and has a question for ya. claire? >> yeah. i'm curious as to where the funding for these lawsuits are coming from. do you have any indication?

you know, i assume these are right-wing lawyers that are taking these cases, potentially pro bono. are they getting paid by someone? i have to tell ya, when i was in the private practice of law, if somebody said, i want you to sue the hospital because they won't give me a horse de-worming drug, i would have said, "hey, go find a different lawyer." where are these lawsuits coming from? is there a plan behind the curtain to fund these lawsuits across the country? >> yes, it is a great point, senator. there's a larger thing at stake here. you have a law firm in buffalo, new york, that is filing most of these lawsuits. because they have a philosophy of personal freedom when it comes to your medical decisions. along with the thinking that, hey, what could go wrong? these people are close to death. what's the harm? but there's a lot of harm in doing this and giving judges veto power over medical decisions. judges are not doctors, and we should not want them to play a

doctor on tv. aside from the slippery slope arguments, there's just the fact that the fda and the nih both have said don't use ivermectin for covid. the fda even said that a high dosage of ivermectin could load to vomiting, seizures, and death. no matter what your crazy uncle's facebook page says, it shouldn't be used for these purposes. even merck, the manufacturer of ivermectin, said people should not use it for covid. they say there is a concerning lack of safety data in the studies that are out there. so that's why judges across the country have rejected these lawsuits, with the exception of one judge in jacksonville. you know, i find it ironic that when it comes to this area, i would suspect that there are a lot of people out there who have been complaining about liberal activist judges over the years who want judges to intervene in your own personal medical decisions here, overriding doctors. i guess activist judges are actually a good thing when they

rule your way. >> i guess so. state attorney for palm peach -- beach county, dave aronberg, thank you. this sounds like hydroxychloroquine, when that became, for a while, the alternative to other treatment and other care for people that were playing down how dangerous covid was. now, there are people who are saying, oh, we can't take the vaccine because it is not safe, but they want to use treatments that -- >> are not approved. >> that they don't think will work for covid. they certainly don't have enough information for it yet. they're also getting other therapies that aren't approved by the fda either. it's just very selective. it's very strange. they're following facebook instead of their family doctors. >> that's correct. >> it is just so dangerous. we hope, we hope that some of these americans can see the errors in their way and start

taking care of themselves and their families and their loved ones. >> facebook, where you can get false information about the vaccine or human smuggling. coming up, democrats are scaling back their $3.5 trillion reconciliation bill with president biden stepping in to help with negotiations. we'll talk to assistant house speaker katherine clark, who was in the meetings yesterday with the president. plus, mitch mcconnell says the gop should focus on the future, not rehash 2020. that's easy. was he talking about someone in particular? we're back in one minute. urancen from unitedhealthcare. medicare supplement plans help by paying some of what medicare doesn't... and let you see any doctor. any specialist. anywhere in the u.s. who accepts medicare patients. so if you have this... consider adding this. call unitedhealthcare today for your free decision guide. ♪

vo: it's always been true, for your free decision guide. that each generation has a moment to make sure it's leaving the world a better place for future generations. and right now is our moment. climate change has reached a crisis point. our very way of life is at risk. members of congress you have a chance, right now, to pass a plan that finally takes it on. this isn't just another vote, it's your moment to get it right for them. congress, pass the build back better act. ♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." it's the top of the hour. >> look how beautiful that is. >> gorgeous shot of washington, d.c., where it all happens. >> yup. >> we hope. >> where it all happens? where what happens? where nothing happens! nothing. >> political action on capitol

hill. >> maybe things are happening. >> wheeling and dealing. it is wednesday, october 20th. jonathan lemire is still with us. joining the discussion, chief white house correspondent for the "new york times" peter baker. msnbc contributor mike barnicle joining us. white house correspondent for pbs news hour yamiche alcindor. and joe is here, awake. i don't understand, when do you sleep? this is not a healthy way to live. >> we don't sleep in october. by the way, i loved your opening line, washington, d.c., where it all happens, said nobody ever. >> okay. >> mike barnicle, we've been going frame by frame through the tape last night of that missed strike three call that actually would have gotten the sox out of the inning. instead, seven runs were piled on top. here it is. frame by frame, you will see the

umpire. his head is actually hiding, oh, behind a grassy knoll, and he cannot see the pitch. let's just be honest. by the numbers, he is one of the least effective umps in major league baseball. mike, we've talked about this before, it's time to take this strike zone away from umpires. there's so many mistakes on all sides. it's unfair to the batters, pitchers, everybody. >> unfair to the game, too, joe. it is unfair to the genuine, legitimate result of the game. that was a strike. diaz, the home plate umpire, as you pointed out, is traditionally and statistically one of the poorest, lowest rate rated umpires in terms of balls and strikes. should have been done by robotics or whatever you're going to talk about. you can't blame a single call

for a loss in a game. you know that. but it was a pretty brutal night in the ninth inning at fenway park last night. i was there. i'm surprised that i'm here right now. >> yeah. >> we're very surprised you're here. >> makes no sense. >> i remember back in 2018, you and i got to second or third game of the world series and said, they better win in four or five, or we're not going to live through the series. >> yeah. >> it gets kind of rough this time of year. we're very happy, very happy they're playing baseball this late. mike, we have buried the lead. there was a classic plate last night. dodger fans for years to come are going to be talking about bellinger taking a ball wildly out of the strike zone and just smashing it over the right field fence. >> yeah. the high fastball, ninth inning, two men on, cranks it into the

center field bleachers. dodgers tie the game up after being behind in the game for the entire game up until that point. the big one, the winning one was by our own friend mookie betts. the run by bellinger. shoulder high fastball, crushed it. >> so high. >> strikes again! >> los angeles fans go crazy. >> yeah. i mean -- >> then the runner on third, left field. mookie, thank you. always a winner. game over. >> game over. we'll see what happens to the braves. >> the hit. >> yeah. we'll see if the braves can recover from this. they were up 2-0 last year over the dodgers. dodgers came back to win the series. win the world series. we'll see what happens this year though. remarkable games last night.

a lot of fun in october. not a lot of fun for democrats and republicans on the hill right now. a new quinnipiac poll showing the majority of americans aren't thrilled with the president, aren't thrilled with republicans in congress, aren't thrilled with democrats in congress, and also don't want to see donald trump run for president in 2024. even though most republicans say they do. look at these numbers, peter baker. 35% want to see trump run for the oval office again. 58% do not. that's, of course, mainly democrats and independents who are against another trump candidacy. but 78% of republicans want to see the former president back on the ticket. so you have donald trump unpopular with most americans right now. you also have joe biden just suffering through dismal poll numbers in a lot of polls. he's at 37%, i think, in this one. 38% in other polls.

right now, not -- nobody dominating the political landscape. republicans, though, they find themselves once again in an extreme position. if you believe this poll, most republicans are backing a guy that doesn't look like he can win. doesn't look like the overwhelming majority of people even want him to run again. >> yeah. that's the one number donald trump is going to look at, the 78% of republicans want him to run. he doesn't focus on democrats or independents. he only focuses on those internal numbers on republicans. he'll do around saying, see, i'm still the most dominant force in the party. he absolutely is at the moment. it looks like he could bet the nomination if they were to have that fight today. i'm not convinced he is actually going to run. i think he wants us to think he is going to run right up to the moment he makes a real decision. it obviously keeps him in the mix. keeps attention focused on him. it keeps money coming into his political organization. we're way early to figure out

whether he is actually going to run. as long as he is out there as he is dominating the field, the rest of the candidates, the next generation of republican leaders, whoever that might end up being, has a really hard time finding the space to grow and develop into the leadership a party, you know, always needs when it moves on to the next generation. >> jonathan lemire, what's going to happen inside the white house? what are they thinking as they look at their poll numbers going lower and lower, sitting at 37% right now? obviously, donald trump their opponent and also unpopular. right now, looks like low numbers for both parties with swing and independent voters. >> they recognize they're in a slump. a tailspin that started over the summer with the botched early withdrawal from afghanistan, then the surge in covid cases, led by a delta variant, fairly

or not are blamed on the president, though a lot came in states with republican governors. hard things take time, and they think it is worth it. biden was successful blocking out the noise in the campaign, early months of the administration. don't pay attention to the outside noise, to twitter, sometimes the members of his own party on the extremes, and stay the course on what he thinks is the key. that is this two-part agenda, which they feel like has made progress here. yesterday, officials suggested maybe they wouldn't go as far as to use the word breakthrough, but real steps were taken yesterday to get this done. the reconciliation package. the president, he challenged members. i reported today he challenged members, you know, moderates and progressives alike to say, i need to get this done before next week, before i go to europe for summits. including one on climate change. i need a framework, a top line on reconciliation. have an agreement to that so, therefore, the vote can be taken on the bipartisan infrastructure

deal. they believe they get that done, americans start seeing the benefits, they'll forget about how messy it was as the sausage was made, and poll numbers will go up. >> nothing like success, a politician on the run. it helps the numbers go up. make no mistake, if you look at this poll and the other polls taken since joe biden's numbers have gone down, people have believed -- i mean, afghanistan was certainly a trigger, but people believe that afghanistan continues to linger over the biden administration. go into the cross-tabs of every poll. it's covid and the economy. >> yeah. >> when things were going well with covid this summer, before the delta variant really had an impact on people's lives, before we had that late summer surge, joe biden was in the 50s. when the delta variant hit and things started to slow down, some things started to shut down

again, the economy dragged along a little bit more, that's when his poll numbers went down. >> why did the delta variant hit? >> yeah. again, i'm going to say the same thing for biden that i said for trump. from the very beginning of this, it is a medical crisis. it's become a political crisis and an economic crisis. you fix the medical crisis, everything else follows. what was true for donald trump and what we said on this show every day in 2020 is still true at the end of 2021. it's a medical crisis. it causes an economic crisis that causes a political crisis. that reality -- that is still the central reality of american politics 18 months later. >> so yes, we're going to have more on the negotiations a little later. yamiche, i wanted to show you this. this is senate minority leader mitch mcconnell yesterday when

he was asked if he's bothered by republicans appearing to embrace former president trump rather than distancing themselves from him. >> well, i do think we need to be talking about the future and not the past. i think the american people are focusing on this administration, what it is doing to the country, and it's my hope that the '22 election will be a referendum on the performance of the current administration, not a rehash of suggestions about what may have happened in 2020. >> yamiche, your thoughts? he seems to have seen the numbers. i think it is kind of hard to just brush off what's happened over the past four years. just to joe's point about the economic crisis versus the political crisis we're facing all surrounding covid, the reason the delta variant is here is because of some states and

some republican governors and republican leaders not requiring mandates, really not helping with the process of eradicating covid from the american population. >> good morning. it's great to be with you. i think that there are really two things happening here on the mitch mcconnell answer that you just played. the first is that mitch mcconnell is, in some ways, trying to pivot from what is a crisis in the gop. the crisis being that conspiracy theories and lies in people who had shown themselves to be somewhat normal politicians have allowed themselves to be brought into this alternate reality of former president trump. thinking about senator grasley, the longest serving senator in the senate, happy to be on stage with president trump and accept his endorsement, knowing he was standing next to someone who was lying about the 2020 election and absolutely wants 2022 to be a rehashing of what happened in 2020 when former president trump

lost the election. then you have, of course, republicans who are ready and wanting to pounce on the idea that president biden is really running into challenges as he tries to get his legislative agenda through congress. that's why you see the president in these meetings with his party, with proprogressives, democrats, manchin and sinema almost daily, trying to get on the same page with infrastructure. we saw a lot of meetings yesterday. what is important here is the president is trying his best, he says, to bring his party together. also, he is doing this under extreme pressure. as you said, covid, the economy, but also voting rights and policing reform, these are things that arecritically important to the democratic base. democrats need to get something done in d.c. in order to give democrats across the country, and including in virginia where the governor's race is happening, something to really run on. >> you know, willie, it's so true, especially we're going to be talking to terry mcauliffe

later on today. terry needs something to run on other than what he is talking about, that democrats are making a difference. they control washington, d.c. they've got to be able to pass an infrastructure bill. looks like we're moving that direction. it's interesting, willie, i want to say just briefly for mitch mcconnell, people obviously shocked and disheartened by the fact that he and republicans blocked the january 6th bipartisan investigation. in part, that all feeds into what mitch said yesterday, which is, let's not look to the past. let's look to the future. let's not make this about donald trump. let's make this about joe biden's failures. we are talking about january 6th. it's critical for this constitutional republic that we understand what happened leading up to january the 6th. i just want to underline again though, and i'm sure terry mcauliffe will tell us this, americans are focused on covid

and the economy. those are the issues that matter the most to them. that's why democrats, why it is critical if democrats want to have a chance next year, they've got to pass some of these significant pieces of legislation. >> there's no question about the priorities for the american people, but i think you'd agree even that a functioning government could do both things at once, which the select committee is trying to do. >> yes. >> look back at what happened january 6th, find the roots, who was responsible, hold them accountable, and pass some of this new legislation. some of the compromises and cuts democrats are making from that social spending package, we're learning a lot more about them now. negotiated after a number of meetings yesterday at the white house. nbc news confirms reporting by the "washington post," biden wants democrats to target a $1.9 trillion price tag for the reconciliation pill. likely to lose tuition-free community college and the child tax credit may only be extended

for one year. negotiators tell nbc news they are also considering lowering the duration of paid family leave from 12 weeks to 4, and a rethinking the clean energy climate proposal. sources say there will be a focus on renewable energy in that package. chair of the progressive caucus, pramila jayapal of washington state sounded optimistic about the negotiations. >> at this point we don't have a certainty on the final thing, but what we're hearing is good. we feel like the vast majority, if not all our priorities, are in there in some way, shape, or form. the president was clear that he took the same approach that we were advocating for several weeks ago, which was to try to get as many of these transformational priorities in as possible, even if it meant a shorter period of time. look, i mean, all these details, this isn't a deal yet. not everybody has agreed. i always say in a negotiation, nothing is agreed to until everything is agreed to. all i'm saying today is that i

spent two hours or an hour and a half with the president yesterday, two hours today with my colleagues, and we're getting there. we're moving the ball down the court. >> congresswoman jayapal there. joining us now, democratic congresswoman katherine clark of massachusetts. great to have you with us this morning. you were inside those meetings as well. do you share some of the optimism we heard there from congresswoman jayapal and we're hearing from others about the future and the fate of this big package? >> i certainly do. i can tell you that our meetings yesterday showed that there is momentum on our side. and that these negotiations are making real progress. and what was so -- what gave me such optimism about yesterday is that the american people were sitting right there with us in the oval office. their concerns we are hearing about the economy, will they have a roll in it, about addressing climate change with the urgency that we need, and

having this through line of equity through all these dpoegs -- negotiations, so the policies we enact in the final negotiation, in the final bill, are ones that truly meet the needs of and the great challenges the american people are facing with great progress. >> congresswoman, we heard a few weeks ago from some members of the progressive caucus that it is $3.5 trillion or bust. now, we're talking about $1.9 trillion, $1.5 trillion, something like that, and still hearing optimism from you and others. what has changed there, and can you live with some of the cuts we're hearing about? like loing tuition-free community college and extending the child tax credit perhaps for only one year. >> you know, this is a negotiation. we don't have final numbers yet. but i can tell you that the priorities that we care about, about making sure families can find child care and home care

for their elders. about making sure that we are reducing the costs of health care in this country. about addressing climate change as we look at a summer of fires and drought and hurricanes. that those priorities are shared. they are the ones that we share with the american people. this entire build back better agenda was built from conversations that joe biden had across this country. that's why i'm optimistic that the "d" in democrat is going to be for deliver. >> so, congresswoman, take us inside the oval office, if you will. you said you're representing the american people inside the oval office. take us inside those negotiations. the conversations with president biden and the other members of congress, your colleagues. what's making the difference? how are democrats seeming to finally be moving forward together? what happened inside there?

>> you know, i think what's happened is i can tell you my experience, and it is one that is shared. it's being home and listening to our constituents. hearing those stories from families. just this weekend, i met a man who told me about his wife had died in childbirth of a stroke. the difference the child tax credit made in his life. he couldn't really believe that this sort of aid was coming his way, to help him pay those basic bills for his young toddler daughter. those stories are repeated every single day. a family i met when i was home that had to make a choice between buying a house or being able to afford child care. as a teacher and a writer, two good jobs but still not able to make it. they had to move in with their family in order to have the child care that they needed. these are the choices.

these are the challenges and barriers that american families are facing. what we are seeing in this negotiation is that they finally have a voice at the table here. i think it is important to remember that every single democrat is at this negotiating table, fighting for american families, fighting for a more equitable and inclusive economy. you know who is missing? every single republican. >> all right. who is not missing is massachusetts own tired, beaten and battered mike barnicle. he has a question for you. >> it was not a good night for the sox. >> yeah, but we have tonight. >> that's right. >> we have tonight. working in congress, you can go back at it again the next day. you know, most americans are familiar with the litany of stories and problems and issues that you just laid out so effectively. my question to you is among the split between the progressives and the moderates in the house.

how many of them really focus on one single fact, there's a democratic president in the white house. you have the house of representatives. you have the united states senate. but you have a democratic president in the white house somewhat in peril because of the split in the democratic party, not only in the house but in the senate. what about the issue of achievement, accomplishment, passing a bill, when is that going to override all of the idealogical differences that we've been following now for months? >> you know, i would say that we are there. because what unites democrats are these policies. are the idea that we really do need to build back better. let's just look at the september job numbers and what they said about women in this economy. at a 33-year low in participation in the workforce. that's why joe biden when he put this together emphasized child

care, emphasized paid leave and home care. because we know those are barriers to participation. and we know that it has so much to do with gender equity, and women are a key piece of our economy. we have to make sure those pieces are there. so there is lots of talk about this divide between moderates and progressives, but it's not what i see. in my conversations throughout our caucus, i find a commitment to making sure that we meet this moment for american families. and that's why i am optimistic that this is going to come together. because we know from the stories at home that it is so critical that we actually deliver this moment with the urgency of now. >> all right. thank you so much, assistant speaker katherine clark. always great to have you on the

show, and good luck. peter baker, in listening to the assistant speaker, it's obvious that democrats have moved a country mile, as we say in northwest florida, have moved a country mile to get much closer to each other. it looks like we are in a range that's been laid out by joe biden, where we could expect to see some sort of settlement. do you know how we got from $3.5 trillion to $1.9 trillion so quickly? >> well, here's the essential compromise, right? for those in the middle or the centrists who are worried about the bottom line price tag, they bring it down to just under $2 trillion. sounds like they've made a big compromise. for the progressives who want to fund the programs, the compromise is they're going to fund most of the programs, but they're going to do it in a way that limits the cost by saying we're only doing it for a year, only going to do it for part of it, four weeks rather than 12 weeks of parental leave and so

forth, on the theory that basically when these, you know, come up for a new vote a year from now, five years from now, whatever time limit they put on the programs, they'll be so popular because they'll have been instituted that congress will continue them. in effect, you're getting more than the $1.9 trillion in programs if you buy the assumption that these programs that are time limited will ultimately be extended on a permanent, sustained basis. it's a little bit of a gamble, obviously. you don't know that when the vote comes up a year from now, will they continue the tax credit for children, for instance. basically, they're gambling once you put something in place, it is awfully hard to take it away. while it sounds like it is only $1.9 trillion on the front end, on the longer term, if you base it on the assumptions, it'll be more expansive. >> will and mika, what peter is saying, his insight here, certainly if you look at what happened with the affordable care act, which is what conservatives were worried about

from the beginning. republicans worried from the beginning, saying, if it passes, that is an entitlement program that will never be taken away. republicans since 2010 have been doing everything they could do to undermine the affordable care act. they controlled the white house. they controlled the house. they controlled the senate after donald trump got elected for a couple of years before he blew all of that and they lost it all. and they still couldn't get rid of the affordable care act. so democrats saying, well, if we can just pass this legislation, it's going to more likely than not be renewed time and again. there's precedent there. >> yamiche, in terms of what you're looking at today, what more can the white house do to get this over the finish line? >> well, i'm really looking at, one, what the president is going to be saying in scranton, pennsylvania. he is going for the first time since becoming president to his birthplace in pennsylvania. he is going to be talking about infrastructure, really trying to

sell this idea that the build back better agenda is going to be a transformational change for americans, that everyone should embrace it. i'm also looking at the concrete deadlines that come out of this. the white house yesterday, while it was talking about all the progress being made, was not talking about the actual date by which all of this could be wrapped up. democratic leaders in congress said they want to wrap this up by the end of the month. i'm interested in seeing whether or not the president comes out with a real sort of timeline for when he wants to see this wrap. also, i want to know what the president says to the american people as he goes to his birthplace to talk through how he's going to get his party united and how he sees the way forward going. >> all right. yamiche alcindor and peter baker, thank you both for your reporting this morning. we'll be watching this all play out. still ahead on "morning joe," a member of president biden's cabinet tests positive for coronavirus just days after an event at the white house. plus, cnn anchor john king

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it's network management redefined. every day in business is a big day. we'll keep you ready for what's next. comcast business powering possibilities. 33 past the hour. homeland security secretary alejandro mayorkas is isolating and working from home after testing positive for covid-19 yesterday morning. mayorkas is fully vaccinated and experiencing only mild congestion according to a department spokeswoman. mayorkas stood alongside president biden at an event on saturday, but the president isn't considered to be at risk because the encounter was more than 48 hours before the secretary's positive test and the event occurred outdoors. jonathan lemire, you were at the event. did you notice anything? >> yeah. it was saturday, so it was 72

hours before the secretary's positive test. >> okay. >> it was at the capitol. it was a memorial service for law enforcement officers who had been killed in the line of duty the last couple years. the secretary was part of the collection of people there. fbi director wray and president and first lady arrived before the ceremony started. walked up with the mask but took it off during the ceremony. but it was outdoors, and white house officials say, you know, the president is regularly tested. he, of course, received his booster shot, and they will monitor him. as they always do, it's a matter of routine. they don't believe there is any reason here to be concerned. cnn anchor john king shared some personal health use with his viewers yesterday. announcing that he is immunocompromised. >> i'm going to share a secret i've never spoken before. i have multiple sclerosis. i'm grateful you're vaccinated.

i'm grateful my employer said the people on the floor are vaccinated now that we have vaccines. >> king revealed his personal health information during a discussion of colin powell, who died from covid complications despite being fully vaccinated. due to his compromised health, king says his aim is to let people know that those with certain medical conditions are still more susceptible than others to catching covid-19 and having severe consequences from it. to that point, fox news host neil cavuto says he's tested positive for covid-19. he is fully vaccinated and has been open about his health struggles with ms. he did not host his fox show yesterday due to his covid diocese. in a statement, cavuto said,

quote, while i'm somewhat stu -- stunned by the news, doctors tell me i'm lucky as well. had i not been vaccinated and with my medical issues, this would have been a far more dire situation. it is not because i did, and i'm surviving this because i did. i hope anyone and everyone gets that message loud and clear. get vaccinated for yourself and everyone around you. that is from fox news host neil cavuto. coming up, new york city mayor bill de blasio joins us with an announcement on vaccine mandates for city workers. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." live picture of the greatest

city in the world at 7:40 this morning. 20 chicago police officers have been placed on no-pay status for failing to disclose whether they've been vaccinated by last friday's deadline. as of yesterday, officials say nearly 70% of the department's workforce has entered the information into the city's vaccination portal. of those employees, 82% say they are fully vaccinated. the other 18% now will be subject to twice weekly covid testing through the end of the year. no staffing shortages yet have been reported as a result of that vaccine mandate. meanwhile, new york city, the highly contagious delta variant makes up 98% of all new covid-19 cases. according to the latest health department data, the rate of transmission is plunging thanks to the ongoing vaccination effort. that continues this morning. joining us now, new york city mayor bill de blasio. good to see you. >> good to see you, willie. >> what is the next step? put in the mandate for teachers. now you're going bigger. what's the announcement? >> it is a mandate now for all

city agencies, all city workers. it's time for everyone to get vaccinated. our public employees are going to lead us out of the covid era. look, what we did with our schools worked. our schools are incredibly safe. families needed to know their kids would be safe. we all need to know we're going to be safe going forward. we have to end the covid era. our police officers, our emts, our firefighters, all our public employees, a lot of whom come in close contact with their fellow new yorkers, they need to be safe. families need to be safe. we also need to reassure all new yorkers that if you're working with a public employee, they're vaccinated, everyone is going to be safe. >> the city has done pretty well with the public employees already. i think the number is 70% of them have been vaccinated. you're targeting the other 30%. you specifically mentioned police and firefighters. some of the vaccination rates have been lower. is that what you're thinking about here? >> i'm thinking about all city employees who are not yet vaccinated.

we need them across the board. it's about 46,000 who still are not vaccinated. and we proved with our schools, we proved with our hospitals, it could be done the right way, the safe way for everybody. and this is part of why we got covid on the run right now in new york city. but you never -- look, we learned the hard way with the delta variant. never let up the gas on covid. never think it is easy to defeat this enemy. we have more work to do. our public employees have to be part of this solution. what i think is under a human level, we have lost a lot of our public employees, lost a lot of people who serve us in this country. law enforcement, we've lost 460 law enforcement officers to covid. more than to any other cause. we've got to protect them. we've got to protect each other. we have to realize if we don't keep vaccination strong, we won't turn the corner fast enough. we'll lose tens of thousands more people in this country. i'm saying this to every mayor,

every governor, every ceo, it is time for these mandates. finish this war, or we'll have covid with us way too long. >> places like chicago said to their police officers, get the vaccine or you'll be tested twice weekly. you're getting rid of the testing option, is that correct? >> correct. >> what will you say to an officer who says, i have a principled objection to it. maybe not asking for a religious accommodation or anything else, but saying, i don't want to get the vaccine. what happens to that officer? >> look, we're offering religious accommodation, has to be real. medical accommodation, and that has to be real, too, there is a process to ensure that. we've also given people months and months to get vaccinated voluntarily. we're providing incentives. we're proviing a $500 additional incentive for public employees who get vaccinated. we've given people a lot of time. we did the vaccinate or test option, but it hasn't gotten us where we need to go. we say vaccinate. if you choose not to, you have

the right to go on unpaid leave. we'll work with your union to figure out what happens next, but the bottom line is, we're not going to pay people unless they're vaccinated. they don't lose the jobs. they can correct and come back. i think that's compassionate. i think that's right. but the bottom line is, 96% of our education employees did it. 96% of our health care workers did it. it's time for everyone else. >> what's the deadline on this, mr. mayor? when do city officials need to be vaccinated? >> october 29th, 5:00 p.m. then anyone who is not as of november 1st goes off the payroll and goes onto unpaid leave. >> coming up quickly, a week from friday. >> let's talk, one of the unions, there's been pushback from the law enforcement unions. the corrections officers, there is an exception here, they have more time? >> corrections agency, for anyone civilian, they have to be part of this deadline. for those who work in the health care facilities related to corrections, they're also part of this deadline. we're giving additional month to some of the other officers for a reason. we've had a real problem lately,

it's been public, obviously, on rikers island, our main correction facility, there was a massive amount of staff out. we need people to come back and address real situations there. we've added a month for that small group only, but it is still a mandate. they have to meet that mandate. >> if numbers don't come up, you're right, the rikers island situation is a bad headline in new york city for some time, what will be done to improve staffing at rikers if you didn't get the people to get their shots? >> we know from everything we've seen previously, jonathan, people will come back in the end. look, we've given people every opportunity. the voluntary phase was very long. now we're saying, we need you to do this. everyone else has done it. this is my message to mayors, ceos in the private sector. it is a very fair point now to say, it's time. all the voluntary opportunities have been exhausted. now it is time for mandates. when people are staring at a mandate, and it is come to work, get paid, or don't come to work,

don't get paid, the vast majority choose to get vaccinated and move forward. >> mr. mayor, mika has a question for you. >> well, i guess the question, is it also going to the next mayor of new york city, especially if it is eric adams, former nypd officer? do you expect this all to continue through november and beyond? >> look, of course i'll letteric -- let eric adams speak for himself. he said previously the mandates make sense. i know he blae believes in trea every worker the same. every worker in health care, in the schools, they got vaccinated. they abided by the mandate overwhelmingly. since we put the schools mandate in place, another 3,500 employees in the school system who at first didn't get vaccinated thought better of it, came back, got vaccinated, came back to their jobs. so these mandates work.

i think our mayor-to-be understands that. >> you've actually -- you haven't gone so far, speaking of schools, as saying the kids should be mandated to have the vaccine. >> no. >> eric adams said if he is mayor he'll look at that, and it is something he might be interested in doing. is there a moment in your term here where you might change your mind and say, okay, it's been declared safe by the fda, kids have to be vaccinated to be in schools? >> i don't see it in my term. i respect whatever choic eric adams makes. adults are my problem. you have 75% plus of our teenagers are vaccinated. that's great. for the 25% that are not, it's not their choice. it's their parents' choice. they have to sign the consent. we're going to have the 5 to 11-year-olds. thank god that vaccine is coming. that'll be amazing. that's going to be a game-changer for families, to know our kids are safe. that's next month. >> yeah. >> but for every parent who says, no, i don't want to get my child vaccinated, i don't want

to penalize the child by holding them out of school, especially if they went a year and a half being out of the classroom. maybe in the future it can be looked at, but for now, i don't want to hold the sins of the parents against the children. children need to be in the schools. >> schools have been safe. >> extraordinarily. >> mike barnicle wants to hop in here. mike? >> mr. mayor, as you pointed out, you're a short termer. you have nine weeks left as mayor of new york city, the greatest city in the world. you mentioned -- you were talking about rikers island with jonathan and willie a few moments ago. rikers island, in a sense for many who go there, inmates, it's a death sentence. you can die of covid. you can die of gang violence. it's been going on not just for a month, not just this summer, for a long, long time. what has been the problem with either closing rikers island or getting something done to make it manageable? >> we got to close it. mike, it is a very, very important point. we've got to close it. i got the plan passed to close

it. the place has been there 85 years. it's a bad relic of a bad past, in the way we treated people incarcerated. we have to end the mass incarceration, get rid of the facilities that were part of it. the plan we passed be close rikers island, of it. the plan we passed will close rikers island. and places where you can actually do redemption. that's the way forward. also, we ended solitary confinement which was just destroying people's emotional status. and making it much harder for people to be redeemed and move forward. there's a clot of changes we've got to do. that's the bottom line. >> mr. mayor, as mike barnicle put it, you have a short term, 3 1/2 months. are you going to running for lieutenant governor? >> you know, jonathan, i want to stay in public service. after this battle with covid, we've got to change things in the city and state and i feel

ready to serve. i'm certainly looking at all options. in the meantime, i've got a job. short term or not, this is one of the biggest moments in the city. fighting my way out of covid or not. that's my focus. >> are you deciding? >> i think anyone who wants to have to decide quickly. look in this city we did pre-k for every child. in this city, before the pandemic, we drove down crime six years in a row. improved communications. these are things we have to do all over the city, all over the state, all over the country. and i want to keep serving the public. no question about that. >> sounds like the beginning of a campaign speech. mayor bill de blasio. i'd like to submit for the record boston icon mike barnicle just admitted new york the greatest city in the world. >> mike is depressed about the red sox defeated.

mike, there's always today. >> that's right, that's right. >> one more grand slam. >> we'll see you this afternoon. thanks mr. mayor. still ahead congresswoman liz cheney accusing president trump as creating, quote, a prescription for national self-destruction. we'll show you a report by republicans supporting the house select committee investigating the attack january 6th. "morning joe" is coming right back. centrum multigummies aren't just great tasting... they're power-packed vitamins...

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republican congressman jeff fortenberry of nebraska has been indicted on charges of lying to the fbi about his campaign contributions. the u.s. attorney's office in central california alleges a foreign billionaire gave $30,000 to fortenberry's campaign through other people. the federal elections commission bars campaigns from tacking foreign money. fortenberry says he didn't know anything about the illegal

donation. fortenberry is the top republican on the appropriations subcommittee on agriculture. under house rules, he will have to step down while the charges are pending. >> so, willie, i don't know if you watched "billions" he did sort of his own midwest version of what ax did when paul giamatti's conference was coming out. in this case, it was pickup trucks and amber waves of grain. and i think some apple pies were in there. >> yeah. >> and talked straight to the camera. he pretty much leaked the news of his own imminent arrest. >> that was quite a selfie video of him, wasn't it, him, his wife. i think the dog might have been in the truck. there were corn behind them. just a regular guy taking some cash, allegedly from foreigners. >> just a regular guy. yeah.

with some -- >> -- issues. still ahead -- >> we hope like, as we do with axe, we hope he's cleared of the charges or in the alternative has a nice place to stay in switzerland. all right. still ahead, how much is the infrastructure battle in washington impacting statewide races? we'll ask the democrats' nominee for governor of virginia terry mcauliffe when he joins the conversations straight ahead. ♪♪ moment to make sure it's leaving the world a better place for future generations. and right now is our moment. climate change has reached a crisis point. our very way of life is at risk. members of congress you have a chance, right now, to pass a plan that finally takes it on. this isn't just another vote, it's your moment to get it right for them.

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welcome back to "morning joe," this wednesday, october 20th. let's get right to the news. the house select committee investigating the january 6th insurrection is unanimous in its vote to hold former trump adviser steve bannon in contempt of congress. house majority leader steny hoyer announced the full house will vote tomorrow whether to refer bannon to the justice department which will then decide whether to charge him. a conviction could mean a year in jail. and a fine up to $100,000. but legal scholars point out that in past instances, no criminal charges have ever been filed when an assertion of executive privilege is involved. in her opening statement yesterday, congresswoman liz cheney who serves as vice chair of the house select committee called on her fellow republicans to support the work of the

panel. >> because he is categorically refused to appear we have no choice but to seek consequences for mr. bannon's failure to comply. those consequences are not just important for this investigation. they are important for all congressional investigations. almost every one of my colleagues knows, in your hearts, that what happened on january 6th was profoundly wrong. you all know that there is no evidence of widespread election fraud sufficient to have changed the results of the election. you know these claims are false. yet former president trumpdaily. and he has now urged republicans not to vote in 2022 and 2024. this is a prescription for national self-destruction.

i ask my colleagues, please consider the fundamental questions of right and wrong here. the american people must know what happened. they must know the truth. all of us who are elected officials must do our duty to prevent the dismantling of the rule of law and to ensure that nothing like that dark day in january ever happens again. >> claire mccaskill, liz cheney restating something we've heard her say many times before, to no effect, she stands on an island almost, adam kinzinger with that. we won't ask if she's going to ask any republicans to change their minds because we know how that goes. but in terms of steve bannon and we know about him and why they're holding him in contempt. we know he was one of the people

behind the stop the steal movement. he was in the willard room on january 5th, saying on his podcast january 5th saying tomorrow is game day, quote, all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. he's someone who needs to be called before the committee. >> listen, i want to really emphasize this, i think it's easy for us to think this is just about donald trump and a private citizen, by the way, steve bannon was, he wasn't a member of government. a private citizen, talk about unprecedented. talk about something that's never happened. a private citizen has never hid behind the wishes of a defeated president in order to influence congress. at this moment, i want republicans on the hill to remember, this is about congressional power. this moment is not about donald trump. it's not about republicans and democrats, it's about important we have three branches of government. because if steve bannon can get away with this, congress has no

oversight capability whatsoever. they are toothless. and that means if the republicans are in charge, democrats are in charge, any private citizen can hide behind a bogus excuse to actually responsible to a subpoena by congress. unanimously issued subpoena by both republicans and democrats. so, i hope the members take a really gut-check moment and realize what they're doing. if they do not hold this guy in criminal contempt, they're giving away their power in an unprecedented fashion. >> no question, steve bannon was just a private citizen, likely wearing many shirts while promoting the stop the steal movement. certainly, in washington, the growing worry that there won't be enough teeth here. if they do let this go, potentially for others who may not cooperate, and bannon, i've talked to somebody close to him, he welcomes this, he sees

himself to be a martyr for the maga movement and would not be disappointed to have this go farther. but if it were to fizzle out here, there's a sense that democrats lose a chance to be a co-legal branch of government suggesting that they will play a secondary role in going forward which makes it more dangerous for a republican president who may come next particularly if that president is donald trump again who would be the gop front-runner by any measure. the thought being at that point if he feels that congress can completely ignore and completely be unchecked and unfettered by any effect. they worry, joe. >> and what could be left with ignoring congressional subpoenas, during the trump administration while he was in the white house, time and time again, elijah cummings would send over subpoenas.

say trump official would ignore. a member asked what in the world would this happen when you were up there? no, it doesn't happen as much. subpoenas actually meant something but they did not for the trump administration and they certainly don't, apparently for steve bannon. but this isn't about steve bannon. this is not about whether steve bannon will be a martyr, he can do his podcast from prison. i'm sure he'll make the most of it. it's not about whether or not they play into his hand or not. it's like claire said, if you have a branch of government that's a coequal branch, either you do or you don't. you have congress white house running over congress. it's been as far as subpoenas go over the past four or five years, steve bannon doesn't have

executive privilege to claim. it's not a legitimate claim. he can't use it. he chas to comply with the subpoena. and if he doesn't comply with the subpoena, congress needs to enforce the subpoena. >> he does, if you back up effectively arguing over this, the fact that january 6th was an issue that some think was not a big deal, it's a bad turn for this country. and i hope congress -- i hope accountability can win the day. >> the fda may pave the way for americans to mix and match covid boosters. at the same time, the agency could authorize boosters for both the moderna and johnson & johnson by the end of the day. a source confirms the process needs to move forward urgently to give doctors flexibility and in part because people are started mixing boosters on their own. the pfizer vaccine could be approved for children 5 to 11 in

coming weeks. game-changer. and today, the white house is expected to announce a plan to get millions of children vaccinated before the holiday travel rush. nbc news has gained exclusive access to a major part of that plan. and here to break it down it correspondent heidi przybyla, heidi, what do we know? >> yeah, mika, good morning. we've learned exclusively that the white house is rolling out a major initiative ahead of this emergency use of the pfizer vaccine for children ages 5 to 11. the white house realizes we're at a crossroads and we cannot get back to normal aunless we have a lot of children vaccinated. even though we have a lot of vaccinated parents out there, not all of them, according to the survey they've been looking at plan to immediately start vaccinating their kids. what are they doing?

they want to set up an infrastructure partnering with children's hospitals, 100 to 200 of them across the country to set up vaccine clinics at hospitals. this is going to look very different than the drive for adults where we have fema executing drive-through clinics. this is what health officials are calling for. take a listen to what some of the doctors on the front lines are saying. >> a sustainable form of this disease is not possible without covering children. the math just doesn't add up. that's the secondary reason. but it has a benefit not just to adults if children get vaccinated. but for children themselves. so, return to normal impacts children themselves. their own education, but also their entertainment and normal life. so, they are part of society. and they have a stake in normalization. >> the kids have done a

beautiful job protecting older people. and i even think about how it must feel for them to finally get access to this. and it's certainly something that people need to consider. when we plan for the holidays. >> so, the coordination, mika, will be on access, messaging, all of these things and the timing couldn't be more important because when you look at when this eoa is expected, the first week of november, it comes just weeks before the thanksgiving rush. and what we've seen, mika, september was one of the worst months for children and covid. the white house wanting us to take this seriously to get their kids vaccinated before the holiday rush. >> nbc's heidi przybyla, thank you so much. coming up, another day, another jaw-dropping head line regarding facebook. the company admits to letting users share information on human

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negotiations continue days after an armed gang kidnapped a group of american and canadian missionaries in haiti. the notorious gang is demanding $17 million for their release. $1 million per hostage. there are five children in the group. the youngest is just 8 months old. earlier this week, white house press secretary jen psaki announced the fbi is working with haitian officials on negotiations to free the group. kidnappings have spiked in haiti since the country's president was assassinated in july. and facebook is facing backlash yet again for admitting it allowed users to request

information about how to be smuggled into the country. the company confirmed the policy after arizona's attorney general requested information on reports that drug cartels and human smugglers were advertising on facebook. >> i'm sorry, could you say that again? did you say drug cartels? >> yeah. >> and people that were human traffickers were advertising on facebook -- hold on a second -- so, you're saying -- >> yeah. >> -- that drug cartels and human traffickers were using facebook. and advertising on facebook. >> well,, listen to their statement. >> and facebook allowed drug cartel and human traffickers to advertise and use facebook. >> they said they didn't promote it but here's their statement. we do allow people to share information about how to enter a country over requesting information how to be smuggled

after consultation -- listen to this, after consultation with human rights experts we developed this policy to ensure we're prohibiting content related to the business of human smuggling, but not interfering with people's ability for seek asylum, blah blah. here's the thing about facebook, joe, they create this business and they set it up, after they find out that rapes and murders and human smuggling are happening, they try to dial back. it's just not -- i don't know, i don't understand why they have the power to have all sorts of nasty things happening, that they just go, oops, oh, gosh, so sorry. >> no. >> they should try and stop that. >> if i could modify one part of your statement -- >> sure. >> -- it's not after they find out that this is going on. >> oh, okay. >> because they keep taking the

money. they keep making their billions. mark zuckerberg, what, 110, $120 million now, probably pays about 5% in income taxes. no they don't correct themselves after they find out about this. it's only after they're caught. and, willie, there was a story several weeks ago about the fact that facebook was warned for some sometime that this was happening. and they continued to allow it to happen. it's just like when somebody high up, in the front office at facebook, leading into the 2016 election warned about russian interference, afterwards, when sheryl sandberg had to go to the board and talk about 2016. and russian interference. and how russians ran ads to interfere with american democracy. it was sheryl sandberg, according to "the new york

times," that took that facebook executive out and started screaming at him for telling the facebook board the truth about a foreign adversary interfering with american democracy. now, let's set this straight again. sheryl sandberg, when confronted with this information and when somebody had the audacity to actually tell the facebook board the extent of russian interference in american democracy in 2016, her response was not to be shocked and stunned and deeply sad. it was actually scream at this person, this truth-teller, that actually let the board in on their dirty little secret. same thing here. they never self-correct, it seems. they always have to be caught. >> they're never accountable. >> and then they try to self-correct. >> well, remember, mark

zuckerberg was sitting before congress saying that instagram and many facebook products actually have healthy impacts in many ways on young girls and young women. all the while we now know because of a whistle-blower who left facebook that worked there, leaked documents to "the wall street journal" and then testified herself before congress that facebook through internal communications knew of the impacts on young girls. they're happy to have the studies internally, ignore them and then publicly say, no, actually, we don't know about any of this stuff. or in fact, it's the opposite of what you're saying. claire mccaskill, the question we've asked for a long time as executives come before congress, what can the government do against a company like facebook? what's reasonable to expect? what should be done, if anything? >> well, this is what happens when congress, at the very infancy of the internet decided to absolutely step aside and not

put any guard rails in. the thought at the time was, oh, we don't want to do anything to hinder this wide open space that could be an economic engine for our country. so congress did something that is always dangerous. they basically gave all of these companies immunity. and that's what we're living with now, we're living with a business model that rewards clicks and engagement. and clicks and engagement come from two things. they come from people being frightened. so when that is the business model, you're going to have this runaway freight train that is smashing people's rights in many ways. so congress has to step in at this point. because let's just assume -- i mean, facebook is in crisis, no question. but that there will be another company that will come behind it, if congress doesn't do something. congress is going to have to regulate and make these companies have the same rules of the roads that newspapers and

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>> the u.s. supreme court has declined to block a state order in maine requiring health care workers to receive a covid vaccination. at least for now. justice stephen breyer who is handling injunctions for the region denied an emergency request to stop enforcement of the mandate. but in a brief order, breyer said challengers could try again, after a federal appeals court rules on the issue. or if it fails to act by october 29th. health care workers are contesting the order because it does include a religious exemption. >> it's interesting mississippi and other states that were bragging pre-covid about how they had the highest vaccination rates in america, for vaccinations we've all been

taking for 50 years, they don't even allow a religious exemption, because they thought it was people using as an excuse to get out of the vaccines. that's before leaders in mississippi made fun of people on the far left of being vaccine hesitant. >> meanwhile, at least two dozen lawsuits have been filed across the u.s. demanding that covid patients be treated with ivermectin. to date, the clinical trial used to deworm animals is even safe for covid treatment. joining us state attorney for palm beach county dave arenberg. >> dave. it's good to have you with us. there's a line in the palm beach gardens case where the law says, in effect, you have no constitutional right to replace your own medical judgment with that of someone who is actually a medical professional.

>> yeah. how about that, joe? good morning, joe, mika. patients do have the right to accept or reject medical treatment. but they have no right, under the law or the constitution, to require doctors and hospitals to administer a drug against their own medical judgment. and even when it comes to terminally ill patients, they even don't have the right to get experimental drugs. and do we really want to go down this road where they have judges performing veto powers over doctors. they're j.d.s, not m.d.s for a reason. you go down a slippery slope like this, where people are getting medical information from joe rogan instead of dr. fauci, it's a dangerous time. in this case, joe, in palm beach gardens, it's really easier than others because in this case, the plaintiff and the hospital have reached an agreement to give the plaintiff's wife some

ivermectin. but the deal fell through when the plaintiff wanted a higher dose than the hospital was going to provide. >> oh, lord. >> this is about whether going to be given. you can see why the judge wanted no part of its medical micro management. >> no doubt about it. claire mccaskill is with us and has a question for you, claire. >> yeah, i'm curious as to where the funding for these lawsuits are coming from. do you have any indication, you know, i assume these are right wing lawyers that are taking these cases, potentially, probono? are they getting paid by someone? i've got to tell you when i was in private practice of law and somebody said, i want you to sue the hospital because they won't give me a horse deworming drug? i'd say hey, go find a different

lawyer. >> that's a great point, senator. you've got in new york, filing lawsuits along with the thinking hey, what can go wrong, these people are close to death but what's the harm? but there's a lot of harm in doing this in giving judges veto power over medical decisions. judges are not doctors and we do not want them to play a doctor on tv. aside from the slippery scope, the fda and nhih have said not to use doses of ivermectiniverm. it should not be used for these purposes. even merck the manufacturer of ivermectin has said people should not use it for covid because they say there's a

concerning lack of safety data in the studies there are out there. that's why judges across the country have ejected these lawsuits with the exception of one judge in jacksonville. i find it ironic when it comes to this area, i would suspect that there are a lot of people out there who have been complaining about liberal activist judges over the years who now want judges to intervene in your own personal decisions here overriding doctors. i guess activist judges are actually a good thing when they rule your way. >> state attorney for palm beach county dave aronberg, thank you very much. coming up what could be the future governor of virginia, terry mcauliffe is standing by, next on "morning joe."

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democrat terry mcauliffe and glenn youngkin. and former president barack obama stumps for him on saturday. president biden and stacey abrams may also have made campaign appearances recently. and the candidate terry mcauliffe joins now. terry, welcome back to the show. >> mika, good morning, good morning. >> governor, it's great to have you here. >> hey, joe. >> we keep asking your owe opponent to come on the show. he won't come on the show, as you know, you watch the show, i'm a second amendment guy. >> yep. >> i'm worried about inflation. i'm worried about the big bills in washington, d.c. you'd think if he's a real conservative he'd want to come

on and talk about that. has he been dodging in virginia? has he been scared to talk to you publicly about that? what's going on with him? >> yeah, the guy is scared. first of all, he dodged out of the debate, the famous debate in 36 years he wouldn't debate he. he doesn't want to get asked tough questions, do you support gay rights? the answer is no. do you support gay marriage? the answer is no. he's scared to debate me. we've had two, traditionally five in the commonwealth. it is like insanity down here in virginia. they had a rally last night, literally for glenn youngkin and the ticket. and they made everybody do the pledge of allegiance to that flag. and donald trump calls into the

rally and says glenn youngkin will do whatever i want him to do. i'm doing meetings about family medical leave what we need to do on sick leave. george soros, who of course is the trump boogieman that george soros and i are somehow -- they're wearing their tinfoil hats it's getting nuttier by the day. he doesn't believe in a woman's right to choose and he's dangerous for virginia. >> with george soros, that's an anti-semitism that we have seen anywhere in the world. they lie about a jew. they pick a jew out and george soros is that jew. by the way, glenn youngkin responded to the whole bit about them pledging allegiance to a

flag that was used january 6th. this is what he said. >> i wasn't involved, so, i don't know. but if that is the case, then we shouldn't pledge allegiance to that flag. oh, by the way, i've been so clear. there is no place for violence, none, none in america today. >> so, he's, of course, he's at the rally. trump's going into the rally. i'm wondering -- oh, he's not at the rally, i mean. but trump's calling in. i'm curious, has he been critical of donald trump's role in the insurrection? has he been critical of the fact that donald trump actually was cheering on the insurrectionists, that he refused to call off the dogs that he was begged by kevin mccarthy to call off the dogs. he was begged by some of the closest allies on the hill to call off the dogs during the attacks and he refused to do so.

has glenn youngkin actually criticized donald trump for that or anything else? >> oh, my goodness, he's embraced trump. he's been endorsed by trump six times. his quote, so much the reason why i'm running is because of donald trump. that's why this election is so important. trump wants to use this as a launchpad for 2024. when asked about the insurrection, glenn youngkin said was weird. weird. if they pledged allegiance to a flag that was just during the insurrection, this is disgraceful what these people have done to our country. they are running down our democracy, glenn youngkin, totally in with donald trump. saying so much of the reason why i'm running. really? i tell virginians i'm running for you, i'm running on job and

health care. he got quoted on right wing radio saying if you don't want to take it don't take it. he also said there's many good reasons not to get vaccinated. he today college students, in you don't want to take it, don't take it. he is dangerous. he doesn't believe a nurse in a cancer ward treating a patient who is already under chemotherapy, immimmunocompromi, he doesn't believe that nurse should be vaccinated. i do. >> there are so many moderates, independents so saddened by the hatred that spilled out in your state, in charlottesville. it's one of the reasons why joe biden decided to run. and a lot decided to leave the party. independents were horrified by

the torch carriers. they were making fascist chants. i am sure, if i looked into this, i'm sure your opponent despite the fact he's been endorsed by donald trump six times. i'm sure your opponent has criticized donald trump for his reaction to charlottesville where he said there were good people on both sides. has glenn youngkin criticized donald trump saying there are good people on the side of the neo-nazis and good people on the side of the left wing protesters? >> as you know, i was there in charlottesville, calling them neo-nazis, white supremacists, he told me on the phone saying there are good people on both sides. i had to give the speech that the president of the united states should have given. i told them to get the check out of virginia.

we don't want you. you think you're patriots, you're a bunch of cowards. the president should have done that that day. glenn youngkin loves donald trump. he's a donald trump wannabe. he said so many of the reasons why i'm running is because of donald trump. that's why people got to get out and vote. this is right and wrong. love versus hatred. he will bring division. he's against a woman's right to choose. he's against gay marriage. he says had the number one thing facing america is election integrity. no, it's not. it's just after what trump said the day before. they're all together on this thing. that's why this election is so important. that's why president obama is coming in, stacey is coming in, joe biden. this is about the future of who we are as a nation. we have got to stop this hatred and divisiveness that goes on.

glenn youngkin's campaign is nothing but racist dog whistles from day one. it's a racist dog whistle and i'm sick and tired of it. we need elected officials to lift people up united as we have challenges with covid. i'm going to put $2 billion in education. i'm going to be the first state to get every one of my citizens covered with health care. i've got big bold plans to take the state forward. i'm excited. ready to go. that's why two dozen republicans just endorsed me, bill kristol, one of the leading republicans in america endorsed me. >> you said that critical race theory is not taught in virginia public schools. if that's the cases are, why in the world would he bring up crystal race theory, it's not even taught in virginia schools.

that would seem as nefarious. i don't understand it. >> it's never been taught in virginia. it's not taught today. he's been fact-checked over and over that he's lying about this. what he's doing -- and it really bothers me, joe, when people and politicians do this to bring out the worse in people. he's trying to stir up parents against parents. he's using students as political pawns, to push a political agenda. it's a racist dog whistle. we need to call things out for what they are. it's sick, it's sad. we dealt with trump for four years. i beat him twice. i ran both campaigns here in virginia, and we crushed him. i'm going to do it again. donald trump is on the ballot 13 days in virginia, younkins doesn't have a original thought. whatever trump does, he does.

people want a leader to come in to unite. as i say, i've always governed, joe in a bipartisan way. what's in the best interest of the citizens of virginia. i got out of bed rearing to go every single day. i want to move us forward. and i want to do it in a bipartisan way and unite people. glenn youngkin divides people. >> terry, there is the part here that i'm going to frame out what will you've said a couple times here. glenn youngkin is trump. how do you appeal to supporters of youngkin, how do you make this race not a worry for the democratic party? >> well, if you look at what i've talked about since the beginning of this campaign, mika, i put out 20 very serious policy proposals. 166 pages on education, on health care, on lifting up

virginians on the economy. i remind you the last time i came in i inherited a $2.4 billion hole in my budget. i created jobs. personal income went up 14%. unemployment dropped. that was a crisis because of the great recession. but i worry about women, 5.4 million have lost their jobs during covid. that's why we've got to work on child care and minimum wage is up. we've got to help the women here in the commonwealth of virginia and across the country. those are issues that people face every day. none of this will happen, mika, if our schools don't stay hope. glenn youngkin has said since day one, masks come off and the vaccination for teachers goes away? really, you're a parent of a 6 or 7-year-old going to first grade. they can't get vaccinated yet and you're going to send them to a teacher who is not vaccinated or wearing a mask? are you kidding me. mika, it's disqualifying as the

governor of this state. i want to keep our citizens safe. i want the economy going but we've got to beat this covid crisis. we've got to get rid of this pandemic sooner or later. having someone that is on trump radio shows every day is not the way to do it. i'll keep you safe. i have the lowest crime rate in any state. i'll create a record number of jobs. i'll build the best education system in the country. that's what will bring the voters over, mika. i'm excited about this. >> good morning, terry. i want to ask you about dueling ads. you said in the debate i don't think government should be telling parents what teachers should teach. they should have an answer and say in what's happening what did

you mean when you said that because glenn youngkin has made this one of the centerpieces of his campaign? >> first of all, i'm the father of five children. dorothy and i and all five of our children, the issue is how do you build an education system? if you don't like the school board, you vote them off the school board. i'm running because of education. that's why the teachers have endorsed me. i'm going to get access to broadband. on his plan, 43,000 teachers will be cut. he wants to take money from public schools and give it to private schools. he's said that repeatrepeatedly. "washington post" has endorsed me. saying that his plan will destroy our state. destroy our education. they said if glenn youngkin were elected governor of virginia,

they will have made a great mistake. and i put a record $100 billion into our schools. i got rid of five standardized tests. we want critical reasoning. we got to teach street a proble. he doesn't have much to talk about, willie because he has no issues and it's just going back to this critical race theory. it's always a back door, and as i say, it's a racist dog whistle and i'm sick of it. >> to be clear, do you believe that parents should have a voice in their children's education? if they don't like what their kids are coming home -- >> of course i do. >> -- and telling them about their experience in the classroom, what should they do about it? >> of course i do. they elect school boards. as i say, a parent of five children. we have a great education system here in virginia. we're ranked number one on higher ed. we're number four on k through 12. and when i'm done as governor we will be number one.

we've got a great education system here in virginia. parents are very involved as i was involved. we've got to invest. we've got to raise teacher pay. we've got to make sure the at risk 3 and 4-year-olds get access to pre-k and i want to make sure every child has broadband. think during covid 14% of our students didn't have broadband, 60% rural, 40% urban. they're supposed to be learning online, yet they can't learn online because they don't have access to the pipe. they've got to go to a parking lot at mcdonald's to get on a wi-fi hot spot. that is wrong. i'm going to fix that as governor. in two years every child will have access to broadband. >> democratic candidate for governor of virginia, terry mcauliffe. >> thank you. >> you know, the thing is, terry, i want to ask you this right now because your opponent is, again, he's avoiding us. he's scared to come on the show. >> we've tried. >> i'm not really sure.

>> i want to ask you right now if -- we're going to ask him again if he would debate you, questions straight down the middle for both of you guys. if he will accept a debate on "morning joe," will you come on the show and debate him here? >> anytime, anywhere, you want to do a 24/7 special, i'll do it. he's been invited on -- i think i've done six, ten shows in the last week. every single show says the same thing at the end. we invited glenn youngkin, he refuses. you are running for governor, he's got to quit hiding. he wouldn't debate me for months. it's insane, you're running for governor, how can you not answer tough questions. we know the answer. women are scared here in virginia. he wants to bring the texas law, joe, from texas here to virginia and ban abortions. he wants the georgia election laws top of his agenda, bringing them here to virginia. let me tell you, those are nonstarters. he praises florida and governor

desantis. 200,000 kids in quarantine, 87 teachers dead because of covid. so he doesn't want to have to answer those questions. he wants his little trump talking points. you know what? you're running for office. you got to stand up. you got to show up. quit being a chicken. >> i'll tell you what, so the offer is out there to glenn youngkin and terry has accepted. >> this time tomorrow morning? >> we'll come to virginia so it can all be the same room, but just -- >> whatever glenn needs. >> sit around a table. >> sure, whatever makes him comfortable for a debate, we'll be glad to do it. >> okay. thank you, terry, we are back in just a moment.

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live pictures, reagan national airport, washington, d.c., the sun's come up. a little chill in the air. >> a little chill. >> on the east coast. >> warmed up by terry mcauliffe's enthusiasm. we know polls don't mean much. we certainly learned that again in 2020, the latest fox news poll has mcauliffe up by 11 points. this race has been extremely close all along. democratic operatives behinds scenes just as nervous about this race as they were in 2020 in florida. feeling a little more comfortable now, but make no mistake about it, a lot is on

the line for democratic candidates and the democratic party in this race. >> yeah, closer than terry mcauliffe would like it to be. remember, joe biden won a year ago the state of virginia by ten points. democrats are keeping a close eye on this and sending in all the big guns. sending in president obama and others. we're talking about glenn youngkin and where he stands on these questions. during the primary he was much closer to donald trump. he sided with people who called into question the election of 2020. now that we're into the election, we've got a contrast where he's trying to swing back to the middle saying yes, joe biden is the president of the united states, there was not enough fraud to overturn. trying to have it both ways. >> this is what we've seen before but what we're really going to see moving forward, post 1/6. a lot of talk about how diskbusing that was and how republicans won't call that out enough. that really was a turning point,

at least for a smaller segment of the republican party, enough to make a difference in elections like this. so as we move forward, what was true in 2020 probably even more true now. these republicans will embrace trump during the primary season, and then run away from him as quickly as possible or let's just say walk that trump tight rope all the way to the general election. because in states like virginia, it's just not going to help you like it would in, let's say, alabama, mississippi, or louisiana. >> yeah, no question. i mean, if you have a ten-point spread you're trying to make up looking back at the presidential election, you have to walk that line. it is a line that every republican finds himself or herself walking. you cannot walk away from the fact that you did during the primary season on the record side with donald trump. it's an interesting dance, and just a few weeks left to see how it plays out. >> we'll be watching and hoping for that big debate on "morning joe." mr. youngkin, you are invited.

>> we'd love to have him on, and it'd be straight down the middle. i'm a conservative. >> can answer the questions. >> ask conservative questions. we'll ask them both the same question. >> that does it for us this morning, stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it is wednesday, october 20th, a busy morning in our nation's capital. we have all the facts you need to know so let's get smarter. lawmakers are set to return to the capitol after a late night of negotiations on the spending bill with moderate and progressive democrats now sounding hopeful that they are getting closer to a deal, but not without serious compromise. some big-time proposals are now on the chopping block. congressman josh gotten halftimer was inside the room, inside the oval office during key negotiations yesterda