hi, everybody, welcome back. i'm yasmin vossoughian here at msnbc world headquarters. if you're just joining us, welcome, great to see you. if you're sticking with us, thank you. we have got a lot coming up in our next hour ahead. including former president obama bringing the passion to the virginia campaign trail, describing a gubernatorial election that is really a defense of american democracy. >> what are you willing to stand up for? when are you willing to say, no, to your own supporters? when are you willing to say, there's some things that are more important than getting elected, and maybe american democracy is one of those things.

>> this is coming amid a frantic search for a deal on capitol hill that could go a long way in that virginia race. democrats behind closed doors right now trying to reach agreement on what is in and what is out of a potential reconciliation deal. right in the middle of the deal making, senator joe manchin, who is facing increasing pressure to make something happen, he also faced a bombshell story this week that he was considering leaving the democratic party if he did not get what he wanted. he says that's actually b.s. he said it's not exactly true. but in a moment, i'm going to talk to david, the journalist who broke that story who still says it is absolutely true, so you don't want to miss that conversation ahead. and then, we got a supreme court surprise, everybody. they are taking up the texas abortion law and taking it up quickly. we're going to have the latest on that ahead as well. we want to begin, though, with former president barack obama, hitting the campaign trail once again in richmond, virginia, this afternoon ahead the state's tight and closely

watched governor's election. obama alongside terry mcauliffe taking direct aim at republicans and their ongoing battle to restrict voting access across this country. >> why is it republicans don't want you to vote? >> they can't win. >> what is it that they're so afraid of? you know, i would assume, terry, if they think they've got better ideas, why don't they just go make the case? but that's not what they try to do. instead, you're trying to rig elections. because the truth is people disagree with your ideas. and when that doesn't work, you start fabricating lies and conspiracy theories about the last election. the one you didn't win. that's not how democracy's supposed to work. >> let's bring in my panel here, joining me now, former democratic congresswoman and msnbc contributor donna edwards and david jolly, former republican congressman and msnbc political analyst. i was speaking to david plouffe a little bit earlier and he's

obviously very used to the former president having worked for him, essentially. but i got to say, as i was watching him speak today, on behalf of terry mcauliffe, campaigning on his behalf, i thought to myself, man, it looks like he sure as heck missed the campaign trail, getting out there today for him. donna edwards, give me your reaction so far as to what we heard from the former president. >> well, i think it was sort of vintage obama. he is a classic organizer, and i think that, you know, his goal was to try to meet voters where they are and to communicate that although this is a virginia election, this is a national election. he was effectively, i think, able to connect what is happening nationally to what's going on in virginia and to demonstrate to people the difference between glenn youngkin, who's wrapped himself up in the former president donald trump, and the contrast with terry mcauliffe, who is about, you know, taking hold of democracy, moving virginia

forward, and as a consequence, sort of moving the nation. so, i thought it was kind of classic obama. he looked like he was really enjoying himself. but i also think it was important for him to be able to deliver a message to the voters in virginia that their votes matter. and that they have to show up. and that's been needed on the campaign trail, and i think that it comes at exactly the right moment for democrats and for terry mcauliffe. >> so, the congresswoman makes a really good point here, david jolly, and that is kind of this idea that the former president as well as terry mcauliffe has been doing for quite some time, and glenn youngkin, at that. that this is definitely seeming like more of a national election than a virginia gubernatorial election. and we heard that front and center today. there is a risk to that, and i want to speak first about the risk to the democrats, and i feel like it's more of a risk to the democrats than it is to the republicans because they're the ones in power in washington

right now, right? it's this idea that if, in fact, they lose in virginia, then it will be seen as a referendum on the current president, and so how then do you subsequently spin that? >> yeah. no, it absolutely would be a referendum on joe biden and the democrats, but look, it is also the only off year election we have of consequence, so we also have to realize that there's a lot of message testing going on here, but plenty of time to re-evaluate and recalibrate going into 2022. i would say the significance of barack obama coming in is it restores kind of the aspirational voice of our politics, which is very hard to find now. i mean, i think barack obama's voice, for as long as he is with us for decades to come will be that aspirational politician that appeals to people's hope and to their change. you know, the one thing that i think he took some license on is to say that people don't agree with republican ideas. the reality is, almost half the country does, so how do democrats overcome that?

and i think that's what ultimately obama, mcauliffe, and others have focused in on, which is today in our politics, we have a pro-democracy lane and we have an anti-democracy lane. and regardless of ideology, the fact that in 2021, we're talking about fundamental issues of protecting democracy, from voter protections to the events of 1/6, that is where the power of obama's voice but also the import of a democratic win in virginia comes in, in the next ten days. >> i want you to expand on this a little bit, david jolly. and this idea that you feel as if, you know, he said and he did say that, that people don't necessarily agree with the ideas that republicans have. do you think that he just didn't get specific enough on this in saying who it is that doesn't agree? because folks would argue, when it comes to voting rights, the people that are going to be disenfranchised the most left out will be minorities, will be black and brown communities, those are the folks that vote for democrats, not republicans. >> yeah, my comment is not an

opinion of right or wrong. it's the notion that, look, donald trump got elected. republicans in the senate hold 50 seats or 49 seats and then the house could very well take back the house. there is a demographic, a political demographic that actually supports republicans right now. it could be on the wrong issues, right? i mean, i think today's gop leaders have led us to a place of political division, to xenophobia if you look at the border, if you look at voter protections. democrats are on the right side of the issues but that doesn't mean there's not a statistically significant demographic behind republicans today. but where democrats win is by bringing their policies over to saddle the lane where there truly is this interest in protecting our democracy. we haven't faced this inflection point of protecting our democracy, and that's where the voices of democratic leaders are most powerful right now. >> okay, so, you made a really easy transition for me, david jolly, and donna edwards, that

transition is talking about infrastructure and reconciliation, right? so, we're definitely at a pivotal point for democrats here in which they could really run with that when it comes to the midterms and if only terry mcauliffe could be campaigning on that now, i'm sure he's wishing that that thing got over the finish line before folks are able to cast their ballots. that being said, you talk about kind of the stand still happening right now in the democratic party. it seems like they're getting closer and closer but depending on two voices right now in washington, joe manchin and kyrsten sinema. we very well know where joe manchin stands on this. we have heard full throttle his top line is $1.75 trillion. he's willing to cut a lot of things out of this reconciliation package to get it over the finish line. kyrsten sinema, not necessarily so. do you think it's problematic that the democrats are so dependent, really, on the voices of two senators as they get this thing over the finish line that could really help define the

democratic party and the year ahead? >> look, i think it's as president biden said the other night in this town hall meeting, you know, in a closely divided senate, every senator is a president, and i think where it comes to these two senators, look, we may not have heard directly from senator sinema about where she is but president biden laid out very directly where there are, you know, differences and similarities with senator sinema. he laid that out very clearly in the town hall meeting the other night. we've heard from richie neil over in the house, the chairman of the ways and means committee about his 30-minute meeting with senator sinema, laying out where she is. and so, i think that there's going -- there is getting to be more clarity about what this bill is going to look like. i have -- i actually have every confidence that democrats are going to get it done, whether it's done in time for november

2nd, for terry mcauliffe, who knows, but there will be more texture around that and so terry mcauliffe will be able to talk about what he's going to do as governor to deliver that infrastructure and work on things like child care and jobs in virginia, and all democrats in 2022 are going to be able to run on a really positive agenda that's going to make a difference in the lives of the american people. >> i just want to talk quickly, and i want to bring up this full screen of what is likely in the build back better legislation and what is likely out, and i want to read this for folks as i let you guys go only because i think the media is often criticized for not talking about what's actually in this bill and i think it's incredibly important for americans to understand what is in it. we're hearing at this point, and of course this is always a changing situation, federal paid leave, six weeks, at this point, reduced from, of course, the ideal that they wanted, which was 12 weeks. universal pre-k, child tax credit with a one-year

extension, possible vouchers to cover dental costs, you got funding for child care centers, increases to pell grants, unspecified climate change funding, elder care provisions as well. here's what's likely out, of course, throughout all of these negotiations getting it down from $3.5 trillion to likely under $2 trillion. that is free community college, expanding medicare coverage that includes dental, vision, and hearing, clean electricity performance program and tax rate hikes on corporations and top income earnings, full well learning that kyrsten sinema is not a fan of that. thank you to you both for sticking with me at the top of this hour. i'm going to bring you back later on so stay close to those cameras. i want to get to that fresh intrigue surrounding one of the key figures in the reconciliation talks i just mentioned, west virginia democratic senator, joe manchin, who had a new response this week to a claim that he's thinking of leaving his party over his ongoing battle with progressives over the biden agenda. >> senator, have you ever had a plan to switch parties?

have you ever -- >> no. you know, i'll be very honest. anything that was ever said, that we've ever talked about, if i'm an embarrassment to my democratic colleagues, my caucus, the president, me being a moderate centrist democrat, if that causes you a problem, let me know and i would switch to be an independent, but i'd still be caucusing with democrats. that's the only thing that was ever discussed. no one accepted that and i said, i'll make that offer if you need it. >> so, by the way, that is a major shift from manchin's categorical denial of the reports earlier this week. >> i can't control rumors and it's [ bleep ]. that's it. it's [ bleep ]. [ bleep ] spelled with a b-u-ll, capital "b." >> the softening on manchin's part is all in response to david's reporting. joining me now. i watched this whole thing unfold on twitter, david, and it was quite entertaining to say the least. in the middle of the week when you need a little bit of a

twitter pick-me-up, you gave it to me so i appreciate that. thank you so much. listen, let's be frank. senator manchin called this thing b.s. what went down? >> well, i was really surprised by his reaction. the story had impeccable sourcing. people who have heard him have this discussion with associates that he was considering leaving the party and he was considering leaving the party earlier in the week with the negotiations went south, if he had bad meetings with democrats, so it wasn't -- maybe in the past, he talked about leaving the party because he was too out of sync within policy and ideology, but he was certainly talking in these conversations about leaving and the middle of the negotiations to send a signal. so, when the report first came out that he was -- he had told people that he was considering leaving for these reasons, he came out and said it was b.s., b.s., b.s. you know, and then only the next

day, after, you know, politico and others had said that the story -- the story was credible, did he change his position, and now -- and then say he was only considering doing this for heroic reasons, to help the party, to save the party. so, you know, according to the sources who heard these discussions, that was not what he said in these discussions. so, i still think he's trying to spin his way out of this, and you know, you just have to think about, at the very beginning, if a report like this comes out, and he just totally denies it, and then the next day he says, well, you know, yes, but, then he's being disingenuous and he certainly had the ability -- i gave his office plenty of opportunities to talk to me before publication of the story and give me whatever explanation he had. they chose not to do that. >> so, was it just no comment? >> yeah. it was kind of interesting in that i knew i was working on the

story, so i contacted his press secretary on wednesday morning and just said, i may have a time-sensitive matter for the senator. i know you guys are busy. what's the best way to get this in to you? you know, phone, email, are you the best contact? and she -- this is what journalists do. and she said, email me, this email, and she put another colleague on the email chain. i said, great. i'll let you know. and then half an hour later, we had the story kind of buttoned down, and so i went back and explained what it was, and asked for a comment and i said, can you get back to me by the end of the morning? didn't hear back. at noon, i pinged her again and said, we expect to go up with the story soon. can you please get back to me? so, they knew i was working on something. i gave them plenty of warning. and they chose not to do anything when the story came out. they also didn't call up with anything. it was just manchin going on this -- doing his sidewalk press conference and spelling out the bull in case people didn't know

how to spell it. >> why do you think, david corn, that this struck such a nerve with the senator? >> that was interesting to me too. i think it's because, you know, he's in a very difficult position. he's been vilified within his own party. you know, you have 98% of the party agreeing to most of the provisions in the social infrastructure bill, and he and kyrsten sinema -- and there are a few others around the edges -- are holding it up, and i think it's probably a lonely, isolated position to be in. and he's being denigrated as not being a true democrat, not sticking with his party, not helping his president. i assume he's, you know, feels sensitive about that. so, be you know, to have -- and you know, we were reporting and outing a private conversation that he has had with associates, private conversations, and it could well be that this was part of his game plan and now since he denied the story, he had lost that piece of leverage if he

ever considered it a piece of leverage. so, i'm sure it fell into the category of -- with everything happening this week, this is not what i need. >> a lot of folks have pointed to manchin's money trail as being one of the biggest influencers when it comes to his negotiations with this infrastructure and reconciliation bill. i want to read a little bit from "mother jones" here, saying this. manchin has received more in political donations from the oil and gas industry than any other senator, more than double the second largest recipient. he is also the number one beneficiary of donations from the coal mining sector. leads the way in money accepted from gas pipeline operators and is sixth in the ranking of senatorial donations from electricity utilities. how much is the money trail, david corn? how much is the money trail influencing manchin's actions right now? >> you know, i don't want to say

how many years i've been covering money in politics, because it will make me sound really old, but this is always a question we have. like, you know, chicken and egg. are they doing this because they're getting money? or are they getting money because they're doing this? you know, in manchin's personal life, he has a interest that's a tremendous amount of money in a coal brokerage firm. he is part of the coal industry. he shifted that to his son, but he still is getting money each year if you look at his senate financial disclosure forms from the coal business. and you know, around the world, people look at our system and other democracies and they say, you know, people are allowed to take money from industries that they are supposed to regulate and legislate about. it's like, you know, if you're watching a baseball game, and the refs are being paid off by the people they're calling balls and strikes on. i mean, the whole system, i think, is institutionally corrupt. and it raises questions about

his and other members' sincerity and authenticity about why they're taking the votes they're taking. >> david corn, thanks for joining us on this saturday afternoon. hopefully it was exciting tv for your twitter followers. great to see you. >> great stuff. coming up, everybody, the abortion law in texas heads to the supreme court. what they will be considering when arguments begin in just more than a week. we'll be right back. n just more than a week we'll be right back. ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ people everywhere living with type 2 diabetes are waking up to what's possible to unveil them to the world. with rybelsus®.

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welcome back, everybody. so, the texas abortion bill is headed to the supreme court in a somewhat surprising decision. the court has ordered arguments on objections to the law from the department of justice and abortion rights groups, and they want it done very fast, setting the hearing date for november 1st to hear oral arguments just one week from monday. so let's talk about this. joyce vance joining me, msnbc legal analyst and former u.s. attorney. joyce, great to see you on this. so, i want to clear things up because i think there's some confusion over what they're actually going to be hearing here when it comes to the supreme court. is this going to be over the constitutionality of sb-8? will they be weighing the constitutionality of sb-8 or will they be weighing as to whether or not the doj has the right, really, or the authority to sue the state of texas over sb-8 or is it both? >> it's a subtle distinction, and it may end up ultimately being a distinction without a difference, but there are two lawsuits challenging sb8, the

doj lawsuit and the suit by private abortion providers and advocates, and there are two questions that the court has agreed to look at. one is whether or not doj can sue the state of texas and its functionaries and the second question that they'll take up on behalf of both lawsuits is whether or not the texas scheme that uses private vigilante justice purportedly in place of state enforcement is a legitimate statutory scheme. do these beg the ultimate question about sb8's constitutionality? in some ways, they do, but it seems clear the court is trying to preserve the ultimate question, the challenge to roe vs. wade for the mississippi case, dobbs, that will be heard the first week in december. >> if you're in the game of predicting, joyce vance, and i know it's a hard position to put you in, because i think a lot of folks are wondering, listen, if this thing were to be challenged

on a constitutional level, sb8, far and away it would be struck down. it is not constitutional. i don't think you need to be an expert to figure that out. but if that's not exactly what is happening here, there's a likelihood it could remain in place. >> the court, i mean, there's an interesting decision here, yasmin, to let this statute stay in effect while the litigation is pending. typically, in a situation like that where we're talking about violation of a clear constitutional right, which is the case in texas, as long as roe vs. wade is the law of the land, which it still is, sb8 should have been enjoined while the litigation continued, and it's deeply concerning that the supreme court hasn't done that, that they've explicitly declined to do that twice now. that certainly if you wanted to read the tea leaves here on where this court was headed, that would be a good and a strong indication. >> what about the indication of the timing of this, hearing oral arguments on november 1st?

that's pretty fast and pretty rare to see it happen so quickly. >> yeah, they've actually scheduled it for november 1st and then they'll hear the mississippi case in december. something that's interesting here that i haven't seen a lot of comment on is that the fifth circuit had actually scheduled argument on doj's case for, i think, the first week of december. so the supreme court has leapfrogged them and they'll hear the case before the fifth circuit gets a second bite at the apple. some people have speculated that that's because the supreme court wants the opportunity to weigh in on this private vigilante justice scheme and to say it's not acceptable but my crystal ball is broken after the way the supreme court has handled the abortion issue all summer and fall. >> let's get that thing working again, if you could, joyce vance. we'd appreciate it. maybe just kind of warm it up a little bit, whatever you need to do. but i appreciate it between now and the next time we talk to you. thank you, joyce. great to see you this afternoon. coming up, everybody, despite suffering devastation --

devastating, excuse me, concussions, related injuries, hundreds of nfl players have not received financial compensation from the league for one reason. because they're black. on because they're black. >> i wake up in the morning real -- it's like imagine your brain being frozen until about noon. >> so, what is race-norming and do some of the league's racial issues run too deep to overcome? that conversation's coming up. e? that conveatrsion's coming up. alice loves the scent of gain so much, she wished there was a way to make it last longer. say hello to your fairy godmother alice and long-lasting gain scent beads. try spring daydream, now part of our irresistible scent collection. tums vs. mozzarella stick when heartburn hits, fight back fast with tums chewy bites. fast heartburn relief in every bite. crunchy outside, chewy inside. ♪ tums, tums, tums, tums ♪ tums chewy bites

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so, thousands of retired football players have reached an agreement with the nfl that will end race-norming in the league for good. the practice came to light only last year after a civil rights lawsuit was filed by two former players. before that, the nfl used race-norming to deny hundreds of black players suffering from dementia financial settlements by assuming they started with lower cognitive function than

their teammates. nbc's stephanie gosk has more on this. >> i wake up in the morning, real -- it's like imagine your brain being frozen until about noon. >> reporter: but he has never received any of the nearly billion dollar settlement for concussion-related injuries. you think it's because he's black. >> i absolutely think it's because he's black. i think he's been discriminated against. >> reporter: last summer, the couple learned the protocols to qualify for the settlement included something called race-norming. their cognitive test scores were adjusted based on age, education, and controversially, race. what it meant for the settlement was that black players had to score lower than white players to qualify to be paid even though the process for distributing the settlement was originally agreed upon by both the nfl and players' lawyers, many players say they didn't realize. >> it's shocking. the news could not arrive at a

more difficult time for the league. just a couple weeks ago, nfl coach jon gruden was ousted from his job with the las vegas raiders after personal emails containing homophobic, racist and sexist language were leaked. now fans are left to wonder, can the problems with the nfl really be fixed? joining me now, dave, sports editor at the nation and author of "the kaepernick effect." welcome back, dave. i'm so happy you've joined us again. last week, we spoke again, we got cut short. i'm so happy to be having this conversation. this is mind-blowing, this race-norming, this idea of race-norming. and it speaks more to the fact that racism is completely engrained in nfl culture, only this stuff is beginning to leak out now. i can't even imagine how they get over this, how they get past this, seeing how much a part of it it is. >> well, it's going to be a

question of how much the players are willing to put up with. how many insults they're willing to put up with, how many absences of opportunities they're willing to put up with, are they willing to put up with a league where they are 70% of the talent and the overwhelming majority, by the way, far bigger than 70% of the talent that people actually tune in to watch, namely the skill position players and a league where there are only three black coaches, which is a shameful number out of 32 teams. three. and even fewer top executives and even fewer franchise owners. see, this is what we mean when we say that there are systemic problems in the national football league and this issue with race-norming, the fact that the nfl allowed that in the settlement in the first place, and frankly that the lawyers for the retired players even casually allowed it in the first place in the agreement, it speaks to how accepted it is in nfl circles, so they celebrate black talent, they celebrate

also the eemisration of black bodies and minds and yet they ignore black excellence once that career is over. >> how do you change things, dave? and i ask this because you look what happened with colin kaepernick. donald trump knew who watches football. donald trump knew, at that time, how money is made in the nfl and who makes the decisions. and so long as it continues that way, it doesn't seem like things will change. >> well, the nfl also realizes that their golden goose is getting very aged. it is getting older and older. the average nfl fan, for all its cultural dominance, the average nfl fan is 38 years old and that's younger than, say, major league baseball, for example. but there is an existential fear in the national football league and in other sports as well that this young generation of people,

which, by the way, is more demographically diverse and less tolerant of intolerance than any generation in the history of the united states is just not going to watch the national football league. too many stories about race-norming. too many reminders of colin kaepernick. too many emails getting released. so, the nfl and roger goodell, i would argue that they realize right now that there needs to be a cultural shift in the league, that they need to clean house. they just want to figure out how to do it while protecting themselves. >> is clean house also -- >> that's just not going to work. >> but does clean house -- listen, if roger goodell is looking at this thing saying, we need to clean house, is he going to take himself out of a leadership position? is he going to be part of that cleaning house or look at everybody else and point the finger? >> you see, there's the contradiction, and it will be curious to see where he actually points that finger. right now, there is a huge push to get dan snyder, for example, the franchise owner of the washington football team, out of the league, by fans, by members of the media, precisely because of the culture of the organization that he has ruined over the last 25 years.

will the league protect its own, or will they decide it's time to change who is actually in positions of power? that's the question facing the nfl, and if they get the question wrong, this league will suffer over the course of the next generation. >> thank you, dave. great to talk to you once again. appreciate it. after the break, everybody, my panel is back to talk about where the house committee's investigation stands on the january 6th attack the capitol. plus, what is at stake for the nine republicans that voted to hold former trump advisor steve bannon in contempt? we'll be right back. e bannon int we'll be right back. do you struggle with occasional nerve aches in your hands or feet? try nervivenerve relief from the world's #1 selling nerve care company. nervive contains alpha lipoic acid to relieve occasional nerve aches, weakness and discomfort. try nervivenerve relief. with voltaren arthritis pain gel my husband's got his moves back. an alternative to pain pills voltaren is the first full prescription strength gel for powerful arthritis pain relief...

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still fresh unstopables in-wash scent booster wherever you go. downy unstopables all right, so, this week on capitol hill, congress voted to green light a potential path to jail for resistant witnesses holding former trump aide steve bannon in criminal contempt for defying its january 6th committee subpoenas while democrats did not need any gop votes to refer the charge, they were actually joined by nine

republicans in a rare show of bipartisanship. it followed a day of contentious debate with lawmakers on both sides trading barbs over the committee's latest move to investigate a defiant private citizen. >> we need to give the american people answers about what happened. there needs to be swift accountability. >> congress is prohibited from conducting criminal investigations. period. but that's exactly what the select committee is doing. >> i have no doubt that mr. bannon's scorn for our subpoena is real. but no one, and i repeat no one is above the law, and we need to hear from him. >> because they can't build back better, they've just decided to build back meaner. >> we know an insurrection when we see one. in this body. because we lived through one. >> all right, i want to bring back my panel for more on this. joining me now is former democratic congresswoman and msnbc contributor donna edwards.

david jolly, former republican congressman and msnbc political analyst, and joyce vance, who's hopefully, her crystal ball is working once again, former u.s. attorney and an msnbc legal analyst. donna edwards, let me start with you on this one and talk about those nine republican congressmen. i wonder if steve bannon here was an easy target, right, to vote and hold him in contempt. but whether or not they would actually make the same decision if it came to others like a jeffrey clark or a mark meadows, folks that were seen as they colleagues. >> you know, i was reminded that in october of 2015, hillary clinton had been subpoenaed to appear before the benghazi commission. she was a private citizen at the time. she was no longer in government. and she complied with that subpoena, testifying 11 hours before the benghazi committee. there is -- steve bannon may be an easy target, but here's the

thing. congress has a right to issue subpoenas and they have a right to expect the american people do that those subpoenas are going to be enforced, and so i think it was really important for the congress to put their foot down in terms of the enforcement, the criminal enforcement of this subpoena. i expect that after a review of the record and the facts that the department of justice is going to enforce that subpoena, and those nine members who voted in favor of holding steve bannon in criminal contempt, you know, they are heroes, but you know what? they actually just did the right thing when it comes to enforcing the institutional prerogatives and responsibilities for members of congress. so, they did what should be ordinary in an extraordinary circumstance. >> david, are those nine republicans now in peril in trumpland? >> oh, yeah, look, very

realistically, only half of them may be back after the next election. i don't see these -- and actually, it's just one of the votes was actually a member from south carolina who said the only reason i'm doing this is because i want republicans to be able to do this to democrats two years from now, but this was not a silver lining in the trajectory of the republican party. this was more the last gasp of those who believe in law and order and the integrity of the congress and the integrity of our democracy. very unfortunately, many of the members who voted to hold bannon accountable will not return. but look, i think the bannon vote serves as an example to the other names you mentioned, the meadows and the others, that if you don't cooperate, there will be consequences. whether or not doj actually pursues criminal indictment of steve bannon, there are a lot of legal costs that go along with what he is now entrapped in, and so look, the house is doing

everything they can. precedence kind of trends away from the democratic position here, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do in the house this week. >> let's talk about steve bannon, joyce vance, his responsibility here. what he could be held accountable for. and then what comes next. with that, i want to play some sound from steve bannon on his "war room" podcast before the insurrection. >> all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. just understand this. all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. it's going to be moving, it's going to be quick. this is not a day for fantasy. this is a day for maniacal focus. focus, focus, focus. we're coming in right over the target, okay? exactly, this is the point of attack we always wanted. >> i mean, if that's not a smoking gun, joyce, i literally do not know what is. talk to me about that, and what comes next for bannon?

>> that tape, even if that was the only piece of information this congress had, would be a pretty good reason for them to want to have a conversation with him, because ultimately, their responsibility here is to determine what happened and to consider whether they need to pass new legislation to prevent a recurrence and to deal with the situation appropriately. it would be an incomplete inquiry if they didn't talk to bannon with this tape out there in the public milieu. so here's what happens next. they've made a referral to doj. doj will have to decide whether to prosecute bannon for criminal contempt. it's not a sure thing, but i think the equities lean strongly in favor of prosecution, because this isn't the first instance of an effort to obstruct congress by someone in trump's camp, and this congress made its referral in light of many, many years of people in the trump administration refusing to engage in the accommodation process with congress and comply

with legitimate oversight. so, doj will have to look at whether there's sufficient evidence to obtain and sustain a conviction here. they'll also have to consider whether this serves the national interest and also whether there's significant noncriminal venues for dealing with the problem, for addressing accountability. ultimately, if congress is going to have the power to continue to engage in oversight, it's incumbent upon doj to go ahead here and prosecute. >> with the crystal ball, joyce vance, will doj move forward? >> you know, it's never a sure thing, and i don't mean to make light of the equities that they have to balance here. there are series issues. there's a 1980s era office of legal counsel memo that suggests there could be executive privilege for someone like bannon who's not in government, but ultimately, executive privilege isn't something that's absolute, and it has to bend. it has to give way in the need for a serious need on behalf of congress to obtain information

to carry out its job. i think doj will be sympathetic to the need to maintain three co-equal branches of government and a system of checks and balances, and those equities would weigh in favor of prosecution. yasmin, the last thing i'll say is, the goal of prosecution, of course, would be to obtain bannon's testimony, and it's not a sure thing. if he were convicted, he could go to prison and still not testify, so, doj may consider that and believe that there are other civil remedies that are better. >> joyce, david, donna, thank you guys all for sticking with me this hour. as always, i appreciate it. coming up, a republican congressman's disturbing message on how to raise children. and the offer of a cash reward for proof of voter fraud backfires. my head-scratcher and high five of the week are coming up next. of the week are congmi up next ♪ ♪

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member of congress. my head-scratcher and high five of the week. my head-scratcher, north carolina representative madison cawthorn was given giving a speche about what he sees as the demass claigs of youngkinpeople when he sherrod >> if you are raising a youngkin man, please, raise them to be a monster. raise -- [ cheers and applause ] >> i don't even know. i don't even know what that's means. that's [ cheering ]

and my part of his efforts to spread the big lie of laekz fraud, texas wlap but the first check issued by patrick didn't go as planned. he had to cough up $25,000 to eric frank, a progressive poll worker after he showed evidence of a republican trying to vote twice in the election. frank told ari melber the voters stuck out like a sore thumb. >> i've been known not never to forget a face. but he just had a baseball cap and black, like, ray ban sunglasses on. i looked up and i was beside myself because we had just had a full conversation about how it wasn't okay for him to do this. in fact, it was illegal. >> eric frank, $25,000 richer and the recipient of my high five of the week. we'll be right back.

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welcome back. tomorrow night at 10:00 p.m. eastern, a documentary event on msnbc that deals with who we are as a country and what we teach about in our history. the peacock original film "civil war or who do we think we are" takes us up north and back again looking at all sides in a debate that continues to this day over why the civil war was fought and

the legacy of its outcome with some continuing to deny face mask facts, including that the war started because of the south's refusal to abolish slavery. some teachers are taking matters into their own hands to make sure black students are taught the correct version of history. here's a clip. >> this class i'm filming, the teacher is teaching the cause of the war. does that offend you? >> yes. >> can you explain to me why? >> because it's not true. >> in mississippi, do people talk about slavery was the cause of the war? >> you don't really hear the word slavery or slaves in mississippi. that was an incidental part of it. i guess the simple term is whitewash. a lot of times you want to see the good part of the history, especially history you were a part of. and you want to minimize the bad

part about it. slavery is not an easy topic to tackle for black a or for white. "civil war or who do we think we are" premieres tomorrow here on msnbc. that wraps up the hour for me, everybody. i'm yasmin vossoughian. i'll be back here tomorrow 3:00 p.m. eastern. reverend al sharpton and "politicsnation" starts right now. good evening and welcome to "politicsnation." tonight's lead, best laid plans. at the beginning of the year, the inauguration of president joe biden and vice president kamala harris along with the democratic house and senate made it appear that change was on the way in washington after four long years of political chaos under trump.