we love to walk on the beach. i have two daughters and then two granddaughters. i noticed that memories were not there like they were when i was much younger. since taking prevagen, my memory has gotten better and it's like the puzzle pieces have all been [click] put together. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. hi there, everyone. happy friday. it is 4:00 in new york. as we come on the air we are keeping a close eye on the goings on on capitol hill. the house expected to vote today on the two most important pillars of president biden's economic agenda. we are also expecting to hear from house speaker nancy pelosi any moment. sharing our breaking news coverage is garrett haake live up on the hill for us.

garrett, i saw you about -- i don't know how many hours ago, "morning joe" was on saying maybe. but we have been through this. tell me, is this it? is this the real thing? >> it is hard to say. the day started with a ton of optimism from house democratic leadership. the plan was they could vote to send the build back better to the senate and send the bipartisan senate-passed infrastructure bill to the president's desk. but they ran into half a dozen house moderates who objected to not having a final congressional budget office score not seeing all the math for how it would be paid for and agreed to what the final costs would be held to. leadership came up with a second plan, what if we do a procedural vote to advance that bill and vote to send the bipartisan bill to the president's desk.

moderates said they would rather sit back and wait until the cbo score is done. who doesn't like that answer? the president himself. he wants a vote today to get things moving. we have been expecting to hear from speaker nancy pelosi now for 20 minutes since we were told she was going to come to the micro phones to speak about how democrats were going to find their way out of this more as. >> i'm riveted by your every word but i think a lot of people are hearing the charlie brown -- wah, wah, how is the entire agenda of the current president who was approval rating on election night was 43% -- a lot of people are saying democrats can't deliver. how is the message coming out of the democratic side on capitol hill today? >> look, this is in the minds of a lot of folks. the problem right now, democrats

are tripping over their feet when it comes to process and not able to pass or focus on what they are trying to pass in these two bills. look, a lot of people put the blame for that on us in the heedia and say we are not talking enough about what is in these bills. what what's in the build back better is very much a open question because in the wide expanse of the democratic party and the wide expanse of ideological differences between joe manchin and jayapal there is fundamentally not agreement on how big the democratic mandate is and what they should be putting in front of the american people. that comes out in these process arguments. what it really means is despite so many democrats running on vastly similar beliefs, the president going out and campaigning on the things that are in this bill like expanded pre-k, like half a trillion dollars for climate investments, they are not all aligned on getting these bills to the president's desk. it's really as simple as that.

>> it's your job to cover the row cess. i think the criticism of people like myself is fair. we should point out that republicans are awol. there is no republican at the table trying to provide universal pre-k for a single american child. there is no republican at the table on either end of the spending equation. that is a new normal in washington. i wonder if you could tell us what you think might happen next. we are waiting for speaker pelosi to come out. what is she expected to say? what would make her come out or not come out? what is she looking for in the next two hours. >> we have seen three versions of this. at the ends of september, october, and now this week. democratic leaders moved these issues to the floor, threatened with the idea of votes flirted with the idea they were going to move things forward. as pelosi we know holds back on

votes she knows wasn't pass. they could fold all together and come back when they have a full cbo score. that's what the progressives would like to see s. pelosi could jam one of these groups and say look if you are really against these priorities that the president of the united states is asking for us to do today cast your voice on that. there are some in the democratic party that want her to drive that. she has been consistent, doesn't hold votes on things she doesn't think will pass. this day which started this morning at 8:00 opening the floor could continue into this weekend and the arm twisting could continue until morale improves. all of these are menu options for the speaker of the house. >> it means lots more long nights ahead for you. garrett, we will keep your shot up. do we a favor and wave if you want to jump in on anything or

if you have got an update for us. thank you for starting us off. speaking of republicans who awol, the january 6th committee investigating the deadly insurrection plans to issue two dozen new subpoenas bringing into sharper focus the intensive planning by team trump ahead of the events of january 6th. here's bennie thompson suggesting the new batch of subpoena also go beyond the names that at this point many of us expect to see. >> who is in this next batch? like what kind -- >> well, some of the people that have been written about. some of the people who haven't been written about. you know, we are just doing our body of work. >> we can assume at this point that one of them who have been written about is theeseman,

eastman's blueprint itemized how mike pence could overturn the election results. sources claim eastman blamed pence for the seech as it was happening. what's more, when it comes to cooperation of those people already subpoenaed by the january 6th committee, thompson tells nbc news, quote, nobody is where steve bannon was, you know, the trump ally held in contempt of congress for defying their subpoena. congressman thompson also performed what committee vice chair liz complainy tells ploit politico that they have completed 150 interviewings with a whole range of people connected to the events. some formal interviews, some depositions, there really is a huge amount of work under way that's leading to a huge amount of work for us. thompson said this. >> we have staff in arizona, staff in michigan, staff in pennsylvania, staff in georgia.

you know. i mean, it's a major investigation. we look at it like that. it's almost a deposition or two a day as well as other methods of getting information. >> those depositions today, jeffrey clark, testifying before the committee this afternoon. clark, the former justice department official implicated in trump's d.o.j. pressure campaign. politico reports this, clark was, quote, accompanied by a lawyer who worked on a suit aimed at overturning the georgia election results. according to a letter from that loughery viewed by politico, former d.o.j. official jeff lee clark is refusing to cooperate with january 6th select committee. it comes as scores of documents related to january 6th are said to be handed over to the committee one week from today.

the one judge who could stand in the way seems at this point unreadied to do that. appearing skeptical yesterday of donald trump's request to block the document release based on executive privilege stressing the significance it has already been denied by the current executive, president joe biden. desperate attempts to conceal the conspiracy behind what was all a big lie failing its leader today is where we start with some of our favorite reporters and friends. jackie alemany is here. also joining us, mike schmidt of the "new york times" and anz msnbc national security contributor. and robert costa is here, "washington post," national political reporter and coauthor of the best selling book, "peril". you are all reporters. this committee is investigating facts on the ground in arizona, michigan, and pennsylvania, and doing one to two depositions a day? that is a -- that is a lot of investigative work. that is a lot of interviews. and that is a pace that is at

least in terms of what the public sees, not apparent. that jumped out at me, jackie? >> nicole, this tracks with what we have been reporting on the past few months, really, since november, but that obviously has picked up this month where we have been able to really put together a lot of the different pieces. but this legal operation that was being run by the former president's outside legal team was far-reaching. and the people that were at the willard hotel running the command center, people like mayor rudy giuliani, john eastman, bernie karrick, they were simply thely ahsans in communication with a lot of people on the ground in these swings states truing to convince their republican allies and state legislatures to help them overturn the results of the election. they were trying to find fraud. again -- i said this before but it was sort of a spaghetti on the wall operation. they were reaching out to as many people they thought would

be sympathetic to trump as possible. that being said we still haven't seen the big fish cooperate with the committee here. i think that might prove to be a problem for this committee. of course putting together all of these small pieces are very important. there is so much we still don't note. our reporting over the past few weeks i think says that itself. but when people like jeffrey clark refuse to ask questions, people who were in the oval office with the president in the days and weeks leading up to january 6th insurrection, people like john eastman who has already made it clear he's not going to cooperate, that makes getting things like this nara request, these documents that we are forcing through the white house at this time each more important if these central characters continue the deline to be cooperative. >> to jackie's point, robert costa -- you and mike have both done incredible reporting on john eastman. there is so much known. it seems to be coming out in the form of investigative journalism

all the time. revelations that while the siege was ongoing he accused pence of causing it by not overturning the will of the people. i am just thinking the other sort of trump-era investigations. you don't necessarily need jeffrey clark to sit down if you have the acting attorney general at the time, mr. rosen, who is cooperating with the senate judiciary committee, and the 1/6 committee, it's note taker. talk getting the whole eastman story without eastman, should he choose not to comply. >> theeseman story is about a eastman memo a plan. when we discovered this document we discovered this was a plan that was in action in early january. the story the committee is trying to piece together clearly by interviewing people in the state is to figure out who was going to be a touch point for trump as he tried to execute the plan on january 5th, 6th.

and in the days after should there have been a delay on the certification. if there is a crime here it could be to defraud the united states of criminal conspiracy. jackie made an excellent point about the lack of a big fish. so far we have not seen a john dean type of figure to acknowledge a criminal conspiracy. in that vacuum, the committee has work to do. is there a conspiracy respond the willard war room? what about trump talking to people in the states? we know he was leaning on lawmakers at the state and federal level. >> michael, i want to go over the tea leaves that we are reading, about the judge that's looking at the release of the president's documents. i want to read from some of the reporting. the wide range of documents is invalid because the committee doesn't have unlimited power of investigation and can only seek material directly related to writing legislation. are you really saying the president's notes, talking points, and records of telephone

conversations on january th have no bearing on the investigation? that was the district court judge. these are about who the president was talking to as people were breaking windows and climbing into the capitol. it seems at least there is some consideration from judge that they are relevant. where do you put sort of the calculation whether or not those phone logs and visitor loose will make their way to the 1/6 committee? >> i think the issue here is about time. donald trump benefitted throughout his presidency by delaying, turning over things, fighting them in court, taking them all the way up to the supreme court. and over that time, investigations petering out, political will petering out, interest from the public turning elsewhere. what's going to be interesting to see here is the collision of two things. can trump continue to appeal this case which legal experts

say he's probably likely to lose -- is he able to appeal it to the point that democrats run out of runway in terms of time? they want to get this investigation done next year before the midterm election. they want this to be done before the campaigning really heats up around that. and will trump be able to outlast and outwait them so they will not get these materials? the other thing is that, what is in these materials? is it things that sort of reinforce what we already know? is it drafts of speeches that just sort of say trump's rhetoric that we have already heard? or is it along the lines what have bob costa found in his book, along the eastman memo lines? that's what we really don't know and don't have a greater sense of. to me, it's about the timing. will there be enough time? because if the democrats certainly lose next year, they

lose power, they would be in the minority and conducting an investigation would be much more difficult. >> robert costa, to mike's comment about time, it is your sense this ends up at the united states supreme court, right? >> if if it does it will be perhaps one of the most monumental decisions the court has made. there was an insurrection at the united states capitol on january 6th of this year. in watergate, nixon was forced to release the tapes by chief justiceberger because there was a crime that had taken place and no president can have confidentiality when it comes to documents when a crime has taken place. that was the threshold forberger. what's the threshold for this supreme court? that's the lingering question. are they going to protect a former president with so-called privilege after he is out of office and an insurrection took place. if they do protect trump, we plooit never have a clear

answer, especially if republicans take over the house as mike said in 2022. that's why bannon and so many others, including clark, seem to be in this wait-and-see game. wait and hope supreme court justices on the supreme court somehow doesn't have a warrenberger moment and prompt trump and these documents and the phone log from january 6th to come forward. >> it is echoing history. i don't think a lot of people have confidence the institutions are like they were back then. i want to get into the strategy of stonewalling. bannon defying his subpoena. clark not cooperating. talk about the body language if we don't have anything else between this congress and between the committee who would like to see congressional subpoenas honored and upheld. they received them to d.o.j.

so far, crickets, right, from d.o.j.? >> yeah, we haven't heard from d.o.j. really in this matter at all. although a justice department attorney yesterday who was arguing on behalf of the national archive actually referred to some of the precedent that bob costa just mentioned about prior supreme court rulings. and that is that the reason why i think the committee is arguing so much that the -- that the former president trump, that his legal argument is so weak here is because in 197 in this landmark opinion given, it showed that the incumbent president is in the best position to assess the present and future needs of the executive branch. i think that's what you are seeing the committee hang their hopes on here. you know, you played chairman thompson at the beginning of your show. he is as steady and as optimistic as ever, moving forward slowly but surely.

they are going to keep going at as many of these people who were involved with the operation as possible from the planning of the rally, the financial mechanisms that funded everything, to the people who were with trump on january 6th. there are still a lot of people to be subpoenaed. but at the same time, you know, the committee can't hold everyone in criminal contempt here. so there is i think a political limit a political wall that they are going to hit. it's something that i know a lot of the witnesses are already privately talking about. i think you are going to see a more political apparatus bolster some of these witnesses and kind of keep them organized and maybe potentially preventing more than just jeff lee clark and steve bannon from cooperating. but, again, there is -- you know, democrats and the select committee, republicans as well, they still have a lot of time here. so they will keep charging forward.

>> robert costa, let me show you how chairman thompson characterized -- i think that's right. i think what jackie is saying is important. it's likely that a political campaign of sorts will sort of be built around people defying the committee if the trump side views this as a good idea. chairman thompson makes clear that nobody is dealing with the committee the way bannon did. >> have you heard anything from scavino yet? >> oh, yeah, we are negotiate sthoog with meadows, scavino and cache? >> yeah, yeah. >> got it. >> nobody is where bannon is. so he's the only one -- >> robert costa, this is my speculation, this is not any of our reporting but it sounds like this is a committee willing to take something as long as atsds not nothing. do you have any insight as to

what those negotiations are with the others? >> clearly, chairman thompson wants to project optimism about the committee. but to jackie and mike's point about time, time is of the essence. and at this point there is going to be a challenge for this committee about what level of engagement actually equals success for this committee. at the end of the day, one thing matters for this committee, unwing matters for every report, speaking for myself, the truth. is the truth going to come out? engagement about documents may be better than a bannon refusal to engage in any way and to have some kind of theatrical contempt of the subpoena. at the same time, if the committee is not making forward progress -- and that's why there is going to be some questions raised from democrats and republicans alike, is this committee big enough? does it have enough investigators, enough money? because at the end of the day, if stonewalling is effective for those who are involved at any

level, even tangentially, then the truth won't come out. that's for american democracy the issue. everyone deserves to know what happened. we know scatterings of what happened thanks to the reporting of the post and nike and others. but not enough. >> yeah. >> and chairman thompson so far is optimistic. but how long will that hold? >> it's the right point and the right question. and the wheels of justice -- i know everyone is waiting for the justice department to get involved. but they are so excruciatingly slow. i want to turn to another story on that topic. mike schmidt, you are reporting this afternoon that the justice department authorized some search warrants of two associates who are associates of veritas for a suspected theft of a diary. >> according to sources that we have been speaking to, there has

been an ongoing investigation for at least probably the past year into the role in how a diary of ashley biden's was stolen and placed on line in the days leading up to the election. if we go back to that period of time, trump and giuliani were really pressing the things about hunter biden's laptop. but in that time it was a diary -- details from a diary that came out. what the d.o.j. is investigating is how was this stolen, who stole it? what happened. as part of that investigation on thursday officials in new york executed a search warrant with people who worked with project veritas to try to find out more about what role those individuals may have had in obtaining this. short low after we posted our

story, james o'keefe, the head of project veritas, put a video out in which he acknowledged the fact that project veritas had been subpoenaed by federal prosecutors in new york as part of this investigation, that the raids had gone on. and he said that the group did indeed come into possession of this diary, but they had done so as journalists. he called themselves journalists and said this was journalism and they had decided not to publish it and decided to return to it ashley by den and give it to federal authorities. he said their group is being targeted by the biden administration as part of their back and forth and conflict that project veritas has had and that they are sort of being targeted here. and it remains to be seen where the justice department will take this, but to get to this point where federal prosecutors in manhattan executed search

warrants on the residences of people affiliated with project veritas is a pretty high bar. it's hard to believe the justice department did not have significant evidence to take that step which they knew would become public and would likely bring on this public fight with project veritas. >> the diary was stolen in 2020. who was the attorney general when the investigate was opened? >> bill barr? >> who does mr. o'keefe feel targeted by? >> i don't know. i guess you would have to ask -- >> but the garland justice department n this instance at least seems to be simple will he not closing down an investigation into someone. it feels like in this time of right-wing disinformation is claim like that -- i mean, does an investigation even happen that quickly. he is suggesting this is some sort of political, what, hit on him? >> that's been one of the issues i think that matt gaetz had when

it came out earlier this year that he was under investigation, that that investigation was signed off, the open asking moving forward of it by bill barr and started under his department. following the narrative that these people were targets of the garland justice department is a harder argument to make. but these don't usually get in the way. >> we are going to pop in and listen to what speaker nancy pelosi has to say. >> today we have an opportunity to proceed down a path to advance a very historic and transformative agenda. the president's agenda to build back better, and also, to pass a bipartisan infrastructure framework to create good-paying jobs across the country, building the infrastructure of our country with mass transit to help clean the air with safer bridges for safety for the american people, for broadband

to help people communicate better, whether it is distance learning, telemedicine, or commerce or just family relations. there are many other elements in the legislation that are very important, very important to the success of our economy. but in order to build back better, we wanted to do that and pass the build back better bill, i call it build back better for women because it makes a big difference and being transformative for women in the workplace. we had hoped to be able to bring both bills to the floor today. some members want more clarification or validation of numbers that have been put forth, on its top line, that it is fully paid for. and we've honored that request. so today we hope to pass the biff, and also the rule of build back better with the idea that

before thanksgiving, which should take another week or so to get the numbers that they are requested as -- i don't know, that's how long it take. as we do, then we will have a thanksgiving gift for the american people. i do want to thank the congressional black caucus for the creative alternative that they presented today that advances the agenda to just -- to do so in a way that, again, is historic and transformative. with that, i will yield to the distinguished democratic majority leader -- or the majority leader of the house, mr. hoyer. >> thank you very much madam speaker. and thank you jim clyburn for the hard work that you and your whip organization, but you in particular have put forward in terms of getting the work done. what is the work? two bills. they are the president's vision of a better and stronger america, a more competitive

america, an america that reaches out to its working men and women, its families, to its children to educate them, to seniors to care -- make sure they are compared for properly. these two bills will make, as the president says, a generational change for our country. i believe that the votes today to pass the infrastructure bill and to provide for a path forward by adopting the rule for the passage of the build back better legislation will be a giant step forward. and i am absolutely convinced beyond a doubt that before thanksgiving the week of the 15th, we will pass the build back better legislation. all members of our caucus have indicated they are for biff.

almost every member has indicated, and i believe we will have an overwhelming democratic vote and pass on our side of the aisle the build back better legislation. i would now like to yield to my friend jim clyburn who has been so important in moving this bill forward. jim? >> thank you. thank you for your vision getting us to where we are today. i think that what we are about to do is hopefully pass a piece of legislation that will be very transformative to many of our communities. if you look at this bill, the so-called infrastructure bill, we see funding that gets us to about 70% of the way with a 100% build out of broadband in our country. that to me is very, very important.

you are not going to be able to have the kind of medical care that we need unless we have telehealth and telemedicine. you are not going to have adequate education for our children unless there is on line learning that has to take place. and rural businesses are not going to be able to thrive unless they can have just in time delivery of their services and their products. so broadband alone does a big, big deal for me. but if you look at the communities that i represent, rural communities, many of them rural, these communities, with this bill get the water and sewage and kind of development they need to make these communities attractive for future growth and development. this bill gets us a long ways down that road. and not to mention what it does for our ports, the charleston

port is in my district. our ports. when you see a state like south carolina building -- and now we do more tires in south carolina than they do in ohio and we have got mercedes-benz. shr sprinter is made in north charleston. volvo, and bmw. they have got to have the ability to get these products out. so this bill, this infrastructure bill is huge for my state and the communities that i represent. and then that gets us to the rule on build back better. build back better, the reason we have got to have that bill is because that's where so much of what we need for families is get to where we need to be, for the communities to get to where they

need to be. just take for instance children. in that bill is where we make permanent for another year the tax credits for children. tax reduction i call it, for families with children. these things are very, very important. and not to mention the other parts of the family that are taken care of in that bill. and so when i think of what we've got to do for the cost of pharmaceuticals. i tried to use the word pharmaceuticals rather than the drugs. the cost of pharmaceuticals. the costs there, it's in the build back better. and so i think there is strong support f not unanimous support in our build back better.

today we want to vote to give the president this bill to sign so we can keep the job growth that we heard about this morning moving forward. that's a huge deal for us. then we will go on to do the rule so we can go home and await these final numbers coming from wherever they have got to come from and do what we need to do to pass that bill sometime out into the future. i will let the speak tell us when that will be. >> let me say how important it is to have the rule vote. once we have the rule vote we have the path to the floor. all of our members voting for the rule means we will pass the bill, as mr. hoyer said and as the distinguished whip said as well. the rule, you have to understand, this is the threshold. we will cross the threshold that will take us to that.

>> do you have never to republicans votes to pass the plan? >> we hope to have as many democratic votes as possible to plastic the plan. yes. >> congresswoman -- [ indiscernible ] have you spoken to her? >> we all speak to each other quite regularly. in fact, it is not by chance that we speak once or twice. it is constant communication. we believe we have done what is necessary to pass the biff so these jobs can come on line snop. we had waited a while. we had hoped to pass it sooner. but we can't wait too much later

for the legislation. i do believe that there are a large number of members of the progressive caucus who will vote for the bill. that is my understanding. i -- with the members all the time. mr. clyburn has the official whip count. i have the speaker's secret whip count. i don't tell anything that he will tell me, not even you, my dear good friends but i have a pretty good feel yes? >> 218 votes will pass it? >> we will see. anybody else here? right there. okay. please. >> there is going to be a vote, there is not going to be a vote, there is going to be a vote, there is not going to be a vote. at a certain point does it seem the democrats can't get out of their own way? >> welcome the my world. this is the democratic party. as roger said so well.

it is a party whose vitality and diversity is something we all respect and admire. we are not a lock step party. we are not just a speak as one person and nobody else needs to show up. and that exuberance is the vitality of our party, which we value and treasure and respect the different opinions within our party. one of the challenges that we have, though, because i have been here a long time, as have all three of us, in those days all of this would be done, but not on 24/7 platforms where there are opinions going out, characterizations going out before anybody even knew what was going on. it is an additional challenge. you about i see every challenge as an opportunity. yes, ma'am? >> what is your message to progressive who is say they will not vote for this infrastructure bill -- [ no audio ]

-- >> and mr. clyburn mentioned, we have to weigh the equities in our vote, each and every one of us, and i hope it would weigh heavily on them that american people want to see progress in their communities with job creation but not only that, what those jobs will create in terms of mass transit to protect the air. water projects to protect the water children drink. broadband so we can have fairness in how people learn and buy and sell and get health care on line. the list goes on and on. and it's very important that we pass it. so i hope that they would make a judgment on the merits the legislation. >> the inability of democrats to pass this today, what does this show to the american -- >> what inability? >> the inability to pass the

build back better plan? >> that's -- we are moving the build back better along. this is the first major step. we have never -- let me -- with all due respect to your characterization, this is -- we are in the best place ever today to be able to go forward. we have not had this level of progress in terms of where we are on build back better, the bipartisan infrastructure framework, or the jobs creation legislation, and the opportunity to have a path to build back better for women. and for women, because there is so much in there that is liberating for women, women in the workplace, and dads, too, who have home responsibilities, whether it is child care, whether it is elder care and home health care, whether it's children learning, parents

earning, with, again, the child tax credit that helps pay the bills. but in so many ways, and of course we are very proud of the fact that in this legislation we have the opportunity for people in the 12 states that did not embrace the medicaid provisions of the affordable care act to be taken under the affordable care act. this is transformational. and everything i mentioned, everything i mentioned, is supported by senator manchin and senator sinema. everything that i just mentioned. there are some things that they may add, subtract, or whatever, but 99 -- over 90% of the bill was built, house, senate, white house. so if if there are a couple things at the end that are different, we will deal with those. but this is, again, transformative, historic, and, again, this is a giant -- two

giant steps forward today. >>. [ indiscernible ] >> no, none. watch the vote when it comes up, okay. >> some voters think -- >> okay. >> a bit of a step forward for the democrats here who as garrett haake confirmed for us at the top of the hour are sort of having a groundhog day. it feels like a breakthrough, though, garrett, take me through what you heard? >> the plan is to try to move a vote forward today on the rule, the procedural step to move forward on the bigger build back better bill that the president wants to see ultimately passed and have a final vote and send to the president's desk the bipartisan infrastructure bill which of course has already passed the senate. pelosi has been in a jam all day long. she's had a group of about half

a dozen moderates who have been unwilling to move forward on the builder build back better act because they have not seen the final score, how much it would cost. they might not have it for a week or more. possibly not until late november. the speaker ultimately had a chance. cancel both votes for today. she could try to jam those half a dozen members, many of her moderates and see if she could force the issue to move both things forward. or she could take this third option which was put forward by the congressional black caucus. their decision was to have a procedural vote on the build back better and essentially jam progressives with a vote on the hard infrastructure bill today. progressives didn't want that bill to advance on its own. they wanted both bills the move together. speaker pelosi seems to be making the calculation it is more likely the several dozen progressives who said they would

vote against this kind of plan will fold when it comes on the floor. she thinks that's more likely than the moderates folding had she gone the other way. this plan, if it works, shows progress on build back better and sends hard infrastructure to the president's desk. as you heard the speaker say, welcome to her world. this is very challenging to corral all congressional democrats. and it will remain a challenge, i'm quite confident, until the gavel falls on today, even if that's sometime early tomorrow. >> let me ask this in way that -- i just want to stipulate, as we did at the top of the hour, republicans are not at the table. democrats are trying to solve these sort of ongoing covid economic distress and despair. stipulated. that said, is there -- what is the level of spoken awareness or remorse or guilt about not being able to get to this point ahead

of the tuesday elections. not even about terry mcauliffe, but is there any evidence that they weaken joe biden at a vulnerable point in his presidency because they did not get to this point before today? >> everything that we are talking about legislatively has been a democrat-only affair. house democrats in particular are keenly aware that inaction is not helpful. now, they will make differing arguments about which bill might have been more helpful, if any, to any specific race. but i asked speaker pelosi exactly this question yesterday. she said look doing something is always better than nothing. they have been stuck in a process argument. they are staring at each other in conference rooms in the

capitol. that helps no one, including the president, who needs to put some wins on the board. >> jackie, that is the policy analysis that i have learned that democrats always make. every program is potentially transformational to someone's lives. having spent time in the republican party i realize now looking up i am the only one to have done so, it is just about deliverables. honestly, it isn't even about that anymore. the republicans don't govern in washington anymore. but this -- this is the reality of this, that the sort of excruciating attention to all this negotiating -- the speaker alluded to it there, the 24-hour climate has made it very politically perilous, perhaps. >> yeah. and that's why you see from speaker pelosi and president biden, a desire to at least get one thing done tonight, after what's been not the best week for democrats. but progressives are still

unsure here. this is a plan that was put forth by the congressional black caucus to go ahead with the bif vote even though build back better is not done yet. we are already seeing some progressive backlash. huffman said this is not part of the plan he called this a curveball, that it is unsettling and disruptive. jayapal, the head of the congressional caucus has a big decision to make here whether or not she's going to ask her members of her caucus to ultimately vote for bif tonight or to tank it and to stick with the strategy they have pushed for all along. because that lack of trust still exists. there is still a feeling that they can't deliver what they have promised their constituents because once bif gets through, build back better is going to be -- essentially, there is a fear it is going to disintegrate, especially ads senators like manchin and sinema

have been milk toast throughout the week on their support for the $1.75 trillion plan. >> robert costa, i have spent a lot of time since tuesday night trying to understand what's going on in voters' heads not just in virginia, but across the country. and it is always true that values -- i think we -- it is almost disurge paing to just call them culture wars. a values argument laid by a republican almost always trumps deliverables from a democrat. to the all the time but almost always. but the only thing that trumps an mowingal values driven argument from a -- an emotional values driven argument from a republican is a roaring economy. jobs numbers today, good sign that the covid delta surge has pretty much dropped off. if these have the effect of

giving the economy the boost that democrats think it will, it might be a viable path out of what this week has been. where do you see the politics of the week shaking out for both sides? >> what a moment just now watching jim clyburn. because what he is saying to house democrats -- i have talked to house democrats in recent days about this -- is, yes, virginia was about louden county, white suburban voters, northern virginia. but the voters the democrats have to come through for right now are black voters, voters who make up the rank and file of the democratic party. and house democrats have been telling me clyburn in recent days has been just like clyburn in march of 2020. i know joe. joe knows us. he gave biden that boost. and he's trying give biden, along with speaker pelosi, a boost right now. he is speaking to the progressives saying that the glass is not move empty, it is

half full. you have got to come along right now. it is for biden, for voters, it is for the democratic party. they are bringing it to the floor. this is old school, no more talk, bringing it to the floor. >> clyburn is perhaps -- perhaps we don't appreciate it on a day in and day out but day in and day out one of the most important and appreciated people in the capitol. thank you for starting us off. when we come back, the fight to preserve democracy, the justice department is challenging texas's voter suppression law. it is just one tool in the arsenal for the right to vote in america. we will look closer at this lawsuit in texas. ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need

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creating criminal penalties for people who assist voters. the justice department claims that the bill unfairly targets elderly and disabled voters, voters with limited english proficiency, and members of the military. writing this, quote, these vulnerable voters already confront barriers to the ballot box and sb-1 will exacerbate the challenges they face in exercising their fundamental right to vote. the suit comes as democrats are facing increasing pressure to pass voting rights legislation after 19 states have already made it more difficult to vote in 2021, all predicated on the lie about fraud in 2020. republicans repeatedly have blocked attempts to pass federal legislation leading democrats to again ramp up talks about eliminating the filibuster in the senate. joining our conversation, neal katyal, former acting u.s. solicitor general. so, neal, tell me what this lawsuit is about, and what doj hopes to achieve. >> yeah, so, this is a really

sophisticated lawsuit, nicole. it kind of represents the justice department at its best when using its career lawyers to really go into detail about what this texas law does and then go into detail about the united states code. so, it challenges things like, in texas, the new law prohibits, you know, if someone has minor clerical errors, for example, in their vote, it basically throws that vote out, and what the justice department says is, well, there's actually this fairly obscure law from 1964, section 10101 which prohibits that kind of thing and ordinarily the justice department uses broad statutes like section 2 of the voting rights act to bring these things and that's at play here but what they've done is really delve into the details of the texas law and said, on the ground, here's how it's going to play out. another example, there's this other provision in the voting rights act, section 208, which prohibits -- basically

facilitates giving people assistance in the -- in voting if they're disabled or something like that. and this texas law obviously, as you were saying before, actually criminalizes some of that assistance. and so it's a real flat violation of democratic principles and the lawsuit is done incredibly well. >> how long will it take? >> it could take a long time. voting rights cases take a long time, and this is why the provision that is on the floor of the congress right now to restore section 5 of the voting rights act is so important. because what section 5 says is that you can't make changes to your voting practices, they can't take effect without being precleared by either the justice department or by a three-judge court. that's the regime we've had for decades, but the supreme court struck it down in 2013, and so now, this debate in congress is, should we resurrect it? and by the way, nicole, the last time this came up in congress, in 2006, it was voted 98-0 in

the senate, 421-3 in the house. so something has happened to the republican party in which they now consider voting an evil and preclearance, you know, which is designed to facilitate voting, an evil as well. >> the virginia result with republican turnout what it was, with voting rights expanded in the state, you would think in the logical fact-based world it might create some pause, but we don't live in a logical fact-based world. i want to ask you about texas. justice department is involved, obviously, in suing texas over the near total ban on abortion. now they've sued over their voting access, voting restriction violations. what do you think inside -- i mean, how much sort of space does texas take up inside doj? >> well, it's, you know, everything's bigger in texas. it has an outsized, you know, hold over the justice department right now. i don't think the justice department has anything in for texas or anything like that. it's just texas is making a bunch of really crazy decisions right now, and i think the

garland justice department is doing its best with the tools it has, like section 2 of the voting rights act, but it does feel like they're trying to slay a dragon using foam swords, because they really do need legislation and there are a million issues, nicole. i understand that the biden administration has to deal with right now, but the voting rights discourse is more than just, like, some other concern that should be thrown on the pile. it's an existential issue and the administration's got to view it as such. and so if you can't break the filibuster for this, i'm just not sure what you break it for. >> listen, just watching and feeling some empathy with speaker pelosi as she tries to sort of herd cats and bring her whole caucus along, there will never be another infrastructure bill, hard infrastructure or human infrastructure, if they don't protect the right for everyone to vote. republicans are systematically and cold-bloodedly killing access to the polls. so, i agree with you. i associate myself with your comments. neal katyal, thank you for spending time with us on a friday. nice to see you.

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♪♪ hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. we continue to watch capitol hill at this hour where democrats are expected to pass one of the two major pieces of president biden's economic agenda. that bipartisan infrastructure bill, which once it passes goes straight to the president's desk for his signature. we're also looking out for any progress that would advance the second part of president biden's spending plan. that's the $1.75 trillion build back better legislation. the president's earlier call for action today to lawmakers in his

party seems to have been heeded. here's the president. >> right now, we stand on the cusp of historic economic progress. two bills that, together, will create millions of jobs, grow the economy, invest in our nation and our people, lower cost for families and turn climate crisis into an opportunity and put us in a path not only to compete but to win the economic competition in the 21st century against all comers. and passing these bills will say clearly to the american people, we hear your voices. we're going to invest in your hopes. help you secure a brighter future for yourself and for your families and make sure that america wins the future in the process. i'm asking every house member, member of the house of representatives, to vote "yes" on both these bills right now. >> right now. and just in the last hour, house majority leader steny hoyer

spoke to the monumental achievement passing these bills will be. >> these two bills will make, as the president says, a generational change for our country. i believe that the votes today, to pass the infrastructure bill and to provide for a path forward by adopting the rule for the passage of the build back better legislation will be a giant step forward, and i am absolutely convinced beyond a doubt that before thanksgiving, the week of the 15th, we will pass the build back better legislation. >> today's progress on the president's agenda comes on the heels of some bright economic news this morning. u.s. added 531,000 jobs in the month of october. it's a number higher than was expected. and this week, we've seen two big developments in our tool kit

to fight covid, which the president has stressed is key to getting the economy back on track. the cdc is now recommending vaccines for children age 5 to 11. they were approved for emergency use. and today, there was an announcement of a pill that blunts covid infections and reduces the risk of hospitalization and death. where the democrats go next as they try to further the president's agenda is where we start this hour. sam stein is here, white house editor for politico. also joining us, basil smikle, democratic strategist and director of the public policy program at hunter college. donny deutsch is here, host of the "on brand" podcast and senior business correspondent stephanie ruhle joins us. steph, i saw you on "morning joe" this morning and i was thinking about all these developments. i was thinking about the jobs report. i was thinking about progress on his agenda, and i was wondering if might be better for democrats if election day were next tuesday. >> it might be better if democrats realized this is a branding opportunity.

sell it. if donald trump had 1/8 of the wins that biden has today, he would be having a press conference all day, a disco party in the oval office and a parade tomorrow. just think about it. >> a military parade, at that. >> seriously. 531,000 jobs in the month of october. right after the expanded unemployment benefits expired. but remember, this is when 200 million americans are vaccinated. kids are now back in school in-person, which means parents have the opportunity to go to work, and look where those jobs are. they're in hospitality, which means people are going out again and we're spending. we are in an economic recovery and now we're about to hire another million people for seasonal jobs. i know you remember a year and a half ago, nicole, we were in shutdown in a global pandemic, possibly facing a global recession, and now we are clearly in an economic recovery, and i can't figure out why the democrats aren't doing a more aggressive job selling it and celebrating it.

>> so, i think basil was on with me on tuesday. i looked down at my phone and because i don't really know that much about the stock market, i said to no one in particular, wow, the stock market, i think, set a record today. do you think that will matter tonight? we go through the whole night, obviously, it was a difficult night, and history aside, of course a president's party always suffers in off-year elections but history told us they were not seeing what democrats were doing in washington. can you put the economic picture, i mean, a snapshot, it feels like the economy should be a winning issue for all the democrats. >> i'm so glad that you brought this up, because just today, when i was going through some of these wins with a very significant democrat, and i brought up, boom, look where the dow is, he said to me, oh, well, that's not really our brand. why not? why do we keep having to think that the stock market is only for rich wall street titans? you know who the biggest owners of stocks are? pension funds. retirement funds. that's firefighters, teachers, people are looking at their

401(k)s every day and so when you look up at the broad scope of the economy, absolutely, people are still suffering coming out of covid. but look at the american rescue plan and the expanded child tax credit. all the financial support we saw given to individuals, we saw given to small businesses and big businesses. and while we're obviously not out of the woods, we are on the eve of possibly passing legislation like we have never seen that's going to significantly create stronger economic foundation for all americans to rise up, and i don't need to tell you how well rich people are doing because it is boomtown party. we're in a good place, economically. >> basil, culture war momentum on the right was, i think, the hangover that everybody felt wednesday morning. i know from working in politics that culture arguments only work when the economy is not strong, when the -- when you can't make an economic argument as a republican, you make a culture argument.

it feels like the economy could be sort of the page-turner that democrats need. >> i think that's right. and owing to stephanie's point, we should be out there celebrating this in ways we have never celebrated anything before because we need this win. we need this win desperately and to what steny hoyer was saying, absolutely agree with him. this is about building intergenerational wealth. we can do that. at least we can get the ball rolling with this bill. it's not about just building bridges. it's in making investments in human capital and building people and careers. we should be talking about that. and i also think about, you know, new voices and new venues. we have a ton of new mayors after tuesday, particularly first african-americans mayors in cities across the country. first non-white male mayor in boston. right? and a 34-year-old black man that just got elected mayor in cleveland. we should be pushing them out to be able to amplify all of the

gains that we have made this week. and there's a great book called "outside money in school board elections." that seems to be the venue and not just talking about education and those culture wars but when it's infused with politics and then racialized, that's going to be a battleground that's going to continue to be important for the next year, two years, and we need to be there too. we need to be everywhere and amplify those new voices. >> yeah, i mean, donny, i've not seen democrats acting as much on offense as they've certainly have the right to act on. and i spend a lot of time on this show trying to understand why sometimes they, you know, stand back and, i mean, republicans need nothing. they make it up and they pound their chest and they do all the things steph said. they throw parades. the last one wanted a military parade just like they do in north korea. but the democrats have some fantastic, understandable, real

fact-based wins this week to close out the week. what, in your view -- stephanie's invoked the term "brand" a couple times. how do they make this strong economy their brand? >> it's the b-word. think about the way they've been selling it. it's a $1.75 trillion bill. okay. what does that mean? you're spending a lot of money. it's a build back better bill. what does that mean? it needs to be the e-word, it's the economy, stupid, we know that back from the clinton campaign. in the bill. the power economy bill. the people's economy bill. the economy's future bill. that the e-word is in the bill. that it's -- the job stimulus bill, something, by the way, you go back to obamacare, it was a healthcare bill. civil rights bill was a civil rights bill. this is an economic bill. and you need to own it that way. it's no more complicated than that. but it's not a spending bill because spending can be a dirty word in a lot of places and it's not a build back better because i don't know what the hell that means and i don't mean to dump all over -- that might have been a good presidential term but it's not a term -- it's not a

term for this bill. get the e-word in. you want to brand it, b-word, get the e-word into the bill. >> okay, so, what's the ad look like, donny? make me an e-ad. >> okay. it starts out with an old morning in america like it's evening in america, it's a dark america, it's what we inherited, it was covid, it was, you know, the economy in ruins, it was january 6th. and all of a sudden, this economics future bill has shed light. it's created jobs. it's given pre-k. it's child tax care credits. it's saving the world with climate things. this is the thing that is powering our economic future. it's morning in america again. >> go ahead, steph. >> can i just say? one of the problems with how would donny make that ad, what would you put in the ad? you don't know what's in the bill. that's the big problem. when you're like, well, it's the

build back better bill. >> i named a few things. >> the problem is, there are so many different things. if you ask people if they back it, their question is, well, i'm not exactly sure what's in it for me. three days ago, we're saying, i can't believe new jersey had these results. phil murphy almost didn't win. well, look at a state like new jersey. it is filled with grinders who are saying, i worked my butt off so my kids could go to a good college and move to new york city one day. i don't want to pay for free community college. however, i do possibly want expanded medicare. i do want other things in that. the problem for the biden administration is during these public negotiations, it's hard to sell what you don't know is going to be in the final package. >> i mean, and sam, i guess, you know, i actually have a lot of sympathy for democrats, and some of them come on this show and complain to me that we're covering every whiff and blow and it's all the process. it's really all they've given us. if they came out and read what was in every version of the bill, what was beyond negotiation, i'm sure steph would feel the same way. you know, none of us would cut

away. that is the central problem, people don't know what's in it. but the other side that i think always has to be raised here is that republicans are nowhere. whatever ends up in the bill, republicans aren't for any of it, and everything in the bill, individually, polls above 60%. so this is all stuff that once people know what's in it, there's nothing in it that's politically toxic at this point. >> yes. first of all, it's very interesting to get into the mind of donny as he conjures up a new ad campaign. >> how great was that? >> like an episode of madmen. i think stephanie is right. when you talk to democrats in the white house, outside the white house, the sort of fundamental problem is, they all want to sell it, they know the components of the bill do poll well, but the fundamental problem is that they don't have a settled legislative text. how do you sell something that is not finalized? so, for instance, stephanie mentioned free community college. up until a month ago, that was under consideration.

but it no longer is. would they have sold that earlier for naught? that's a big question mark. and to your point, nicole, yes, you know, the republicans have been completely absent from this process, not the infrastructure process, but this process, and i know, from our reporting, that the white house and democrats want to hammer them on this but they have to get the bill passed first. you can't hammer them for opposing something that may not pass. you pass the bill and then you turn to republicans. i will just say one last thing about the good economic news that came out today. and the idea that obama needs to lean more aggressively into it. that's a constant complaint that we hear from democratic operatives outside the white house, not inside the white house, but outside the white house, saying, look, aggressively sell what you have done. be more active and out front with this. the only pushback i will add that you do hear occasionally that i think is worth considering is that if you aggressively lean into good economic news too hard, you risk offending a certain sect of people, not a small one, who

feel like they have been left behind in this recovery, who feel like the inflation and the cost of living has really gotten them down. we still are tepid about the economy because of covid. so, they, you know, there is a risk with coming -- to overselling the economic recovery that i think people should understand. >> sam -- >> nicole, that's a real risk, but if you don't do it, then you're taking people at the other side of the democratic party and saying, vote against your interests, because we're not here to celebrate an economic win if it is working for you. >> well, and i guess, sam, i was going to come back to you. it's a bigger risk for republicans who aren't for the other half. what the democrats can do that republicans can't is to tout the strength of the economy while also touting all the things they're doing to sort of bring along people who aren't there yet and reaping the benefits of the stronger economy. republicans really can't do that. i mean, i guess they can tout the bridges and roads, but they're not going to be able to tout any of the social programs to help people, the exact people you're describing and i know it's been a nine-day week, but

you said obama and i know you meant president biden, right? >> i'm pretty sure i did mean biden and yes, it has been a ten-day week, not a nine-day week, so i forgive myself. but to your point, nicole, you're absolutely right. that's why i think a lot of the virginia election, not all of it, but a lot of it was on culture wars, on education, on, you know, is america becoming too woke or too enlightened and should we go back to the sort of by gone era where things are simpler? those are tried and true formulas that do work, but they work particularly well when you want to take the conversation off of the economy. the question that biden is going to have right now is can we get these bills done? and once they're done, can we pivot them to selling them and tarring republicans for opposing them? >> basil, i want to come back to you on the point that sam just made. this analysis about wokism. james carville made a comment about woke detox centers but i think there's another james

carville-ism that is more appropriate in terms of what the landscape is shaping up to be and steph's been talking about it, joe scarborough has been talking about it, it's the economy, stupid. it's the path out of debating whether or not one person's wokism is another person's more sensitive dialogue for their trans child. so that is divisive, even on the left. but a rising tide, a roaring economy, and it's the economy, stupid, certainly seems like something everyone can get behind, not just democrats but the independents that make up those winning national coalitions for president clinton, president obama, and president biden. >> that's right. i mean, what trump did very well was to conflate economic nationalism and ethnic nationalism. and that projection, when people feel that economic anxiety, and they project. they project on everyone and everything within their grasp. and so, if our -- if the biden administration, if democrats can get out there and fill the void, actually make their voices louder and fill the rooms and fill more rooms, then we can

change the dynamic of this conversation so that we could focus on what voters are actually going to receive from a bill that, yes, we don't know all the details of, but that's the issue. you've got to go out there and start talking about what's in the bill, give people something to hang on to. we just had a mayoral election in new york city and a black democrat ran on being tough on crime. we don't have to cede ground to anyone. we can -- within the party, the democrats actually can do this, but they need a strong, coordinated strategy with everybody out there selling this thing so that we don't, you know, so no one else is filling the conversation with these culture wars and dog whistles. >> steph, what, in your view, who are the people that can break through? i mean, i think a lot of people don't -- i don't cover the economy as much as i should because i feel like i don't know all the ins and outs. i think a lot of politicians

don't go front and center with it because they don't know exactly where all those pressure points are. what is your sense of who the best messengers in the democratic party are on the strength of the economy? >> unclear but they've got to step forward. and this white house does need to find a way to at least work with the business community who are the biggest employers out there and it's important to remember, the republican party, it's not like they're, oh, we're just the party of pro-business. think about all those trump supporters who did not do well economically under trump. they suffered. and truthfully, if biden's build back better program goes through, it's going to be great for a lot of mitch mcconnell's supporters. what the biden administration needs to figure out a way to do is to speak to all levels of the economy. it's not that the wealthy are bad. it's that we have to figure out how to get people to pay their fair share and the one thing i would say, it doesn't matter if republicans or democrats win. look at build back better or any other legislation. i'll tell you who always wins. super, super wealthy donors.

because even when this thing goes through, carried interest provision is still going to be in our tax code and you'll still be able to write off your private jet after one year of ownership but they haven't found a way to get full family leave in and that's what we need to do for all americans. >> well, and i mean, that kind of ruins your ad, donny. that's what makes everybody mad. i'll give you the last word. >> no. no, no, no. the ad is -- it's basically, and you can put in a checklist of everything, every constituency is being helped. it's not an either/or. basil mentioned eric adams. i was at a small breakfast for him and he said, look -- and it was a moneyed crowd so he was certainly playing to it but he said, look, i'm really looking out for the guy driving the limo but i understand the person in the back is important also and important for the big picture and it's like, the democrats have to stop demonizing -- steph's bringing up a very good point. in a lot of ways, it's not a zero sum game. and i think one more thing to put in the ad, a simple ad that

has different people saying, thank you. thank you for the new bridges, thank you for medicaid, for pre-k, tick it off one by one but under the auspices of the economic surge bill or whatever you call it. but stop with build back better. it's a sucky name. >> don't you want donny deutsch's vote? donny is the rich guy here. don't make donny feel like he's a bad guy voting against his own interests. find a way to communicate to all voters, because all voters should want to love america and want this country and their families to thrive. >> i can't believe it falls to me as a former republican to say this, but let me just say. i think that there's a feeling after covid that rich people bought pelotons and were just perfectly fine being able to work from home. that was not the reality for a lot of people and they're pissed off and the reason they voted for a republican in virginia is because remote school wasn't like, oh, i'm on my peloton while my honey is doing read aloud. it was hell. it was brutal. they were getting lambasted by

bosses who had no compassion for teaching special kids math. none. i think a lot of people are angry and i think the covid ptsd that people have from our sort of privileged life is totally unrecognizable in the vast majority of this country, and i think that hangs over all of us. >> but nicole, that's why you can't just -- >> i didn't say it, the mayor said it. >> you just can't assume they're only doing that because of crt. >> totally. >> they're also doing it because they had a hell year of education for their kid and it's also about learning loss for them. >> absolutely. and i think keeping you all around on a friday, i know that almost all of you had other places to be for longer than any of you planned to be here is how we start having these real conversations. so, we got a free ad out of donny. we got stephanie to work like a -- i don't know what this is called, a triple shift. and it's great to see you, basil, and you too, sam. thank you so much for starting us off this hour. donny sticks around. when we come back, how the

big lie is raising fears of a potential constitutional crisis after the next presidential election as republicans who stood up to trump this time could be replaced in elections by those willing to do his bidding. that story's next. plus, one of the disgraced ex-president's allies is calling for cognitive testing for older elected officials. she's talking about the current president, but she might be forgetting the former guy's obsession with man-woman, person, camera, tv, tomato and it was one of the most bizarre moments of the 2020 election, rudy giuliani's press conference at the four seasons total landscaping in philadelphia. held just as the election was being called for president joe biden. the director of msnbc's new documentary about it and the president of the landscaping company will be our guests later in the program. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. tinues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. the best eggs in so many delicious ways. eggland's best. the farm-fresh taste you love. plus, superior nutrition. only eggland's best.

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we're keeping an eye on capitol hill for you for any further developments on the president's agenda on those votes. we'll bring them to you if they happen. in the meantime, with this week's elections in the rear view mirror, attention has shifted to next year's midterms and while control of the house and senate will have a lot to do with how president biden spends his last two years before re-election, the most important races could also be the gubernatorial races happening around the country. with states like arizona, georgia, pennsylvania, and michigan all voting for new governors in 2022. why are these elections so important? well, they represent the future of democracy in this country. these races will determine who the governors will be, and governors are the ones who have

the job of certifying presidential election results in 2024. some of these candidates are ones running on the twice-impeached disgraced ex-president's big lie that the 2020 election was stolen from him. joining us now is nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard in phoenix, arizona. you've done some incredible reporting. tell us about it. >> reporter: yeah, afternoon, nicole. we watched so intensely last winter the certification process at the county level. we watched it from the secretary of states. we watched them from the governors and every step of the way, ultimately, those governors, those secretaries of state, they certified their election results but now the question is, 2024, and in 2022, you're talking about six major swing states that will be choosing their next governors and their next secretary of state who will be the ones in 2024 to determine whether they certify their state's results. >> i think the america first movement has been the most important political movement in this country.

>> reporter: this is kari lake. she's at the heart of this story, a candidate for office in 2022 who could throw the u.s. into election chaos in 2024. in the last 24 hours, you have said the 2020 election was stolen. would you have certified arizona's results? >> hell no. >> kari lake. whoa. whoa. >> reporter: lake, a former phoenix local news anchor, caught trump's attention over the summer. >> wow. this could be a big night for you. >> reporter: she is now trump's pick to be arizona's next governor. this as trump eyes his own 2024 comeback. he already has a following of candidates like lake who refuses to say that she would have certified the 2020 election. how close to a constitutional crisis were we? >> i think we came very close to a constitutional crisis. >> reporter: trump pressured current arizona governor doug ducey last year but ducey did not back down, even silencing a call from the white house.

as he officially signed and certified arizona's vote for biden. >> governor ducey was horrible. he was missing in action. >> reporter: now lake is looking to replace him. >> doug ducey should have never certified that. >> reporter: but it's not just arizona. it's georgia. michigan, nevada, pennsylvania, wisconsin, all these swing states have races for governor in 2022. those states' governors in 2020 all signed off on their state's results, but in 2024? >> many of these people, those heroes of our democracy in 2020, will be gone in 2024. >> reporter: in georgia last year, trump called on the state's republican governor, brian kemp, to resign after he, like ducey, made georgia's biden win official. then, less than a week later, on the morning of the january 6th insurrection. >> donald trump has just begun. i'm a part of his team and we're going to take back this kwun. >> reporter: that man, vernon jones, a georgia legislator, taking to the stage in washington in defense of trump. he is now running for governor. >> he's a great guy. he's smart.

he's tough. vernon jones. >> i stand for free, fair, and transparent elections. >> reporter: if you were to win the governorship, why should one trust that you would have certified the election results in the state of georgia in 2024, if joe biden were to win re-election or another democrat. >> that is your narrative. that is what you want to push but -- >> reporter: you're not even willing to say that you would certify the 2020 election. >> i will certify anything that's legal. >> reporter: some states also require the signoff of their secretary of state. trump, trying to influence here too. in arizona, backing mark finchum, a state legislator who was outside the capitol on january 6th and supporting jdy hice, trying to beat brett raffensperger in georgia. this week, lake throwing what she calls an election integrity rally. >> november 3rd, we witnessed that steal go down. >> reporter: multiple reviews in arizona and georgia found no major voter fraud that would have impacted the outcome, but

no mention of that here. in 2024, would you be willing to put the country in a position, potentially, of a constitutional crisis by not certifying arizona's results? >> in 2024? >> reporter: if you were governor, that would come down to you. >> let's just take it slow here and get through decertifying. i think we need to decertify our election right now. i don't want to look into hypotheticals. >> reporter: but still, next year's governor's races with ripple effects for the 2024 presidential election. >> let me ask you, vaughn. would you certify a crooked, corrupt election? would you certify a crooked, corrupt election? just to make peace. yes, no? that's not how i operate. i do what's right. >> reporter: nicole, just to make peace. those were kari lake's words. just to make peace. >> vaughn, it led to the opposite of peace. it led to a deadly insurrection. i mean, what -- what is she

talking about? here's my question about all these folks. chris krebs, lifelong republican, most secure election in america's history. bill barr, willing to do all sorts of things for donald trump at the united states department of justice, couldn't find any fraud. jeffrey rosen, acting attorney general, sorry, mr. president, we can't declare it corrupt because it wasn't. it was secure. it was accurate. brad raffensperger, mr. president, there aren't -- i mean, do they -- are they deluded and they believe a lie, and they're using that lie to launch political careers or do they believe the b.s.? >> reporter: i would add the four republican maricopa board of supervisors to that list there and i would also add governor doug ducey who ultimately certified those election results there. does kari lake actually believe this? i can't get to the heart of who these individuals are that have

led them to this moment but i know that kari lake has been an anchor here in phoenix, local television, for more than 20 years and was not viewed as somebody who was part of the far right up until she resigned earlier this year to join, essentially, this trump alliance here. what you saw the other night on wednesday night was video messages from former president trump, from paul gosar, from mike lindell. doug ducey won by 14 points years ago. just because mark kelly and kyrsten sinema won their seats here and joe biden won by 10,000 vote, it is completely within the realm of possibility that kari lake is the next governor of arizona. they just did their own audit. more than $7 million were raised by trump allies, $7 million raised by trump allies. they can make money off this here and they just did. they still weren't able to prove that donald trump actually won the election here, but yet, at

the same time, they have support within this republican party and it could very well win kari lake the nomination to be the next governor of this state. >> yeah, i mean, and the how bad was this loss in arizona? it was so bad the cyber ninjas couldn't make him win. it is an unbelievable state of affairs and a fantastic, fantastic piece of reporting. nbc's vaughn hillyard, thank you so much for joining us, my friend. when we come back, the latest attempt by republicans to tarnish president joe biden loses its punch considering their leader is the same guy who kept repeating person, woman, man, camera, tv, tamale over and over again in a sad yet tragic attempt to demonstrate his mental competence. that reporting's next. mental competence. that reporting's next. ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience,

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rather than making this about a person, we seriously need to have a conversation that if you're going to have anyone above a certain age in a position of power, whether it's the house, whether it's the senate, whether it's vice president, whether it's president, you should have some sort of cognitive test, like just like you have to show your tax returns. you should have some sort of health screening so that people have faith in what you're doing. and right now, let's face it, we've got a lot of people in leadership positions that are old. >> so, this is what's happening on the right, okay? that was nikki haley talking about a cognitive test.

keep in mind, nikki haley worked for donald trump. let that sink in. comments were part of a conversation that is very en vogue right now. in haley's case, it's pretty coded. they're casting doubt on president joe biden's mental state. the former south carolina governor, nikki haley, suggested older politicians should submit to a health screening, quote, just like you have to show your tax returns. really? something else donald trump didn't do. she said it without irony. but haley might want to be careful what she wishes for because again, she saw up close more than any of us saw of donald trump. donald trump of tim apple fame who once pondered on the oranges of the russia investigation and insisted revolutionary war troops took over the airports. revolutionary war troops. he wanted to nuke hurricanes. he wanted us to inject bleach to clean the lungs. for god's sake, he was the man who stared directly at the sun during a solar eclipse and once appeared to forget how to drink from a glass of water.

but let's not forget donald trump did do what she said. he took a test called the montreal cognitive assessment, actually designed to detect dementia or other cognitive decline. he took it and then he bragged in tv interviews about his perfect score but it didn't really have the intended effect. watch. >> like a memory question. it's, like, you'll go person, woman, man, camera, tv. so they say, could you repeat that? so, i said, yeah. so it's person, woman, man, camera, tv. okay, that's very good. if you get it in order, you get extra points. go back to that question. and repeat them. can you do it? and you go, person, woman, man, camera, tv. they say, that's amazing. how did you do that? i do it because i have, like, a good memory, because i'm cognitively there.

>> he was in charge of the nukes. oh my god. so, this is not a segment, though, about him. bless his heart. or about joe biden. this is a segment about the anatomy of a smear being laundered by the likes of nikki haley. joining our conversation, nick confessore from the "new york times" and nbc political analyst. this is how it starts. we talk a lot about facebook here, nick. about sort of the end of the food chain but this is where smear about joe biden's age and losing a step starts. starts from nikki haley. >> well, it's funny, nicole, this is the arc of an attack we saw in 2020 that, in fact, was spread very effectively on facebook, where the trump campaign and their acolytes and their helpers would spread the idea that he was senile, not with his marbles and the idea there was to spread the idea

that he wouldn't really be in charge, that other people like aoc or kamala harris or socialists, people who were less popular than joe biden at the time, would be in charge. and that's the underlying point. >> you know, donny, it's funny to watch trump and to have those questions again about what he brought to the office of the presidency while he was our nation's commander in chief. it's freaking terrifying. but this whole vein is really, really unseemly. i mean, ageism, the sort of veiled swipes by nikki haley who sees herself as sort of a polished trumper. what do you make of it? >> yeah. first of all, i just have to go back to the trump thing because there are elements that we do miss. i got to tell you, i literally -- i have tears coming out of my eyes. you can't believe it's real. we lived through it. we got numb to it on a daily basis but when you go back to some of the greatest hits, the ones that are kind of at least not as dangerous as some of the other ones, you can't believe it.

nikki haley, there's a word that probably doesn't come up a lot on the show, talk about chutzpah, to talk about this and republicans are all about freedom, we don't want anybody to have mask mandates or telling us what we can and can't do, yet we should put people with an ageist, which is no different than being racist, slant on things and we're going to test you to see if you're up to the job. the people who test are the voters and nikki haley's brand, to me, has really sunk. if we go back three or four years ago, nikki haley was seen as a real alternative to donald trump and since her posting on january 6th, flip-flop, and this kind of nonsense, talk about a spill. nikki haley, what's happened to you? >> yeah, you know, and nick, she seemed to have some moments of clarity, i think tim alberta did a pretty remarkable profile of him, but for her, there were always moments. they were like, points of the sun and when it was sort of right here, she saw clearly but for everything before and after, she went back to carrying trump's water. talk about her as a sort of post-trump political figure.

>> well, look, she's been trying to tap back and forth and figure out how to run for president against donald trump without seeming to have to run for president against donald trump. it's the same problem that marco rubio or all these people in the next generation have. i saw this comment, you know, it's being taken as an attack directly on biden and perhaps it is, but i see it in a way as a subtle kind of undermining of donald trump. she mentioned taxes. she mentioned iq tests, basically, a senility test and her message overall was really, it's time for the next generation to take over. it's time to pass the torch, so i see her as sort of trying to undermine, you know, trump and biden at the same time. >> if she was trying to suggest that donald trump take a cognitive test and turn over his taxes, she's welcome to come here and make those points any time. nick confessore, donny deutsch,

thank you so much for spending time with us. it wasn't exactly the four seasons, right? how did rudy giuliani end up holding a bizarre, desperate news conference at four seasons total landscaping as the 2020 presidential election was literally being called in realtime for president joe biden. a new documentary airing sunday on msnbc tries to get some answers. we'll meet the film's director as well as the head of the landscaping company after a quick break. don't go anywhere. g company aft quick break. don't go anywhere. bye mom. my helpers abound, i'll need you today.

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i got a phone call from my son, anthony, and he said, mom, this is bigger than we think. and he sends me a picture while i'm talking to him. and rudy's sitting at my desk and the plaque in front of my desk says, boss lady. i looked at my husband and i said, i think we better get over there. >> right now, we all know pretty much how that story ends. rudy giuliani goes out there, rambles on, made baseless claims of widespread voter fraud that was nonexistent, learned that the 2020 election had been called for joe biden all in the parking lot of four seasons total landscaping. why the trump campaign selected that particular site for a press conference near an adult video store with a cream toerm across the street has mostly remained a mystery. that's the hook for something we're looking forward to this

weekend on msnbc, the debut of "four seasons total documentary." joining us now is christopher stout, director of the four seasons total documentary and president of the four seasons total landscaping. i want to show something else that's from the doc, something your son said. let me play that. said. let me play that. >> that was one of the hardest parts for me. i nerve her to deal with that level of, i'm talking hundreds and hundreds of emails. i got basically, go f yourself. going to burn down your building's it created a lot of fear of what the future holds for four seasons total landscaping. >> i want to come back to how this happened but how are you guys doing now, marie? >> we're doing great. i mean, it's all exciting for us. it started all over again. it really has -- like a little bit at a time more things have happened. the guys have really played this up on social media. so we get a great response from

everybody. we've been embraced by the country, by, truthfully by the world. as far as germany and australia and -- but what michael said was true. i probably got 1,000 emails. phone calls -- it was a little scary in the beginning. >> how did rudy come to be sitting at your desk behind the boss lady plaque? >> from what i recall and how it happened was, i got a phone call from one of my employees, sean. he's actually in the documentary. and sean speaks to my husband and he said, i just got a phone call, he said. the trump campaign is looking for a place to hold a press conference. so my husband hands me -- because he answered my cell phone. he hands my cell phone to me and says i think you should take this one. he said what do you think we should do? i said, do it. this is -- you know -- if it was the president fshs its was the

incoming president, the outgoing president, we have to do it, i said. so we did it, but i didn't think it was going to go -- the way it went. i had no idea that -- once trump tweeted, we were going to be broadcast all over the world. >> did you have a sense, when you were sitting there watching that this was going to become this sort of piece of what was a really extraordinary postelection period for the country? >> no. i didn't have that. honestly, i stood there, i actually stood on the trailer and i listened, and it wasn't until i walked inside and looked out the front window and saw the hundreds and hundreds of people, the s.w.a.t. team, the police were all over. there was -- every group was recognized out there, and i got

frightened. was this a big mistakes. i worked really hard in a man's line of work and actually thought i may have made a mistake. my whole business to go down the drain in a matter of days. >> that didn't happen. right? why i asked at the top hoar are you doing. is everything okay now? >> everything's okay. i can't say we got landscaping work from this, but a lot of note tr note notoriety. i used to live outside philadelphia in a condominium, and i had a guy in the elevator recognize my voice. he said, you sound like the lady from the super bowl commercial. i said i am the lady from the super bowl commercial. that part has been really fun. and when chris -- i guess -- calmed to say he wanted to do a documentary, we were screaming in work. i mean, he could tell you.

we're a crazy bunch. it was -- it was just like so exciting. and what to me was so amazing is that people cared about us. >> of course. >> we-of-they really did genuinely, when i walked in on the set at the super bowl and looked around and saw 300 people. i'm really emotional. so i cried. i couldn't believe all of these people could be there for me. for me. this was just amazing. and then to find out that -- that they're going to tell our story is -- it was crazy. >> chris, tell me about -- >> it was an experience -- >> i want to bring chris in. tell me about that call, when you called and said we're going to make this a documentary? >> well, you know, the entire world wanted to know, you know, why was there a landscaping company hosting the president's lawyer for this press conference. it was every news outlet under the sun trying to contact them

and when i called them, i was less interested in the mystery behind why and i was a lot more curious as to how this situation had turned this real family's lives completely upside-down. such a out of water situation for them. this was a real landscaping company. weekend they use lawn mowers to cut grass and thrusted into a viral political moment and felt like such a cool opportunity to explore the conflict behind that. >> tell me what your sort of approach was? it's incredible. an incredible piece. everyone has to see it. i don't want to spoil anything. seems like what you did was, let marie and them tell their own story. tell me how you go about doing that? it's not as easy as it looks. >> when you make a flum i like to collaborate with the people i'm making the film with. it was always important to understand their perspective, to

get ideas they had to include in the film. the film is only as good as i can make the folks of four seasons feel comfortable, feel good about the story they're sharing with me and i was so grateful that they had given me this amazing responsibility of telling the story that the entire world wanted to know. >> chris -- >> so for me it was just -- such an honor. >> is it -- is it your sense that sort of leaving the extreme politics -- because this really is a story about total landscaping and it's not really a story about rudy giuliani. tell me about sort of your view in this very polarized environment of making films that appeal regardless of where you land on the political spectrum? >> yeah. i mean thashs was really important. the film is called "four seasons total documentary." this is the story of four seasons total landscaping, and you know, as country, 2020 was such a difficult year.

we had coronavirus. we had maybe the most divisive election we've ever had as a country, and so for me to completely try to heal from that moment and try to create something that wasn't divisive, that wasn't going to push people farther apart from each other, and to try to use humor as this great common unifier. you know? that's really the lesson for me from four seasons total documentary and the four seasons folks taught us is you have to be able to take a joke, laugh at yourselves, and be humble. >> it's also, i think, marie you tell the story. you know, we're all just people. kind of bouncing along, and even on this extraordinary day. you get the last word, marie. >> it's funny, because i did a little commercial for a website and one thing came to my head was just to tell everybody, we're just ordinary people that got caught up in extraordinary circumstances.

and -- the way we handled it was -- i think that was the whole thing in a nutshell nap we handled this so well, and it gave us the opportunity to help so many other people. >> marie siravo, christopher, thank you for spending time with us. all watching "four seasons total documentary" airs sunday 10:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪

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