>> to defend yourself while you're treating someone? >> if i needed to defend myself while treating somebody, yes. >> if you didn't think there was friction with the crowd and you're out there trying to help, why did you expect there to be any dangerous? >> from the previous nights when i saw people being assaulted. >> were they medics being assaulted? >> i don't know who they were. one of them was just trying to put out a fire at his businesses. >> so you saw someone put out a fire. >> yes. >> but if you're going to hurt people, why would you expect anyone would try to hurt you? >> i don't know. somebody did try to hurt me. i was helping people. >> that came -- you're talking

about later on. >> yes. >> this is before the shootings. this is before you crossed and all that. >> yes. >> at this moment, you don't think there's a hostile crowd and you're there to help people and you're going to run out there with an ar-15. i don't understand why you felt you were going to be in danger if you're out in what you think is a friendly crowd helping them. >> i didn't say i didn't think they were hostile. i didn't think they were hostile towards us. >> so they are not hostile to you and you're going to go help them. why do you need the gun? >> i needed the gun because if somebody attacked me. >> why would anyone do that? >> i don't know. >> you clearly planned on it. you thought it was going to happen ha. >> no, i i didn't. >> that's the whole reason you brought the gun. suspect it? >> i brought the gun to protect

myself. >> exactly. because you thought you personally were going to be in danger. right? >> not necessarily. >> i don't understand. you said you're going to bring the gun to protect yourself. so you thought you were going to be in danger, right? >> i didn't think i would be put into a situation where i would have to defend myself. >> you said that the people around you on that the property and the pop up on the roof were there to protect you. that's what you said. >> yes. >> you meant when you go out in the crowd, they are going to protect you. >> watch over me, yes. >> watch over and protect you. >> yes. >> again, because you expected that if you go out in that crowd to try to provide medical service, you thought you were going to get attacked.

>> they were to watch me -- they were on the roof to watch me. if somebody was to attack me and n their view, they could say hey kyle, watch out. >> they have ar-15s. >> yes. >> we talked earlier about this. the a ar-15, you can't use deadly force to protect the building. >> correct. >> the ar-15 was to protect you. that's what you just said. >> not the ar-15. i said they could shout down and say, hey, watch out. >> so they are just carrying around the ar-15s for no reason. >> i don't know why they are carrying around the ar-15s. >> can we play -- this is the end of this video is where you invite mr. mcginnis to follow

you, correct? >> yes. >> you invited him to do that because you said him to film you while you were out in the crowd doing your thing. >> yeah, i said it was okay for him to film me. >> let's play exhibit 17, please. [ inaudible ] >> just asked you so you're a

certified emt. you said yes. correct? >> yes. >> that was a lie. correct? >> i'm not an emt. >> you're not a certified emt. you weren't on that night. correct? >> yes. >> so you lied to him, correct? >> i told him i was an emt, but i wasn't. >> you knew you were being interviewed when you told that lie. >> yes. >> please continue. >> thank you for your service.

>> can we back up 10 seconds please. then just pause right there. we just heard a voice say something to you about pop throwing rocks or something along those lines. i don't really need to know exactly what they said, but did you hear that voice? >> the police officer, yes. >> that's what i was going to ask. that's one of the law enforcement officers in that armored vehicle that you're walking past, correct? >> yes. >> and what we're watching this this video happens a few minutes after those same bares had handed you bottles of water, correct? >> yes. >> they say to you something to the effect of we appreciate you guys. do you remember that? >> i do. >> that's when you were on the 59th street property and you were acting like you were guarding that property. >> yes. >> so how did it make you feel when the police are letting you

pass the lines, they are warning you about people throwing rocks, they are handing out pot thes of water and telling you that they appreciate you. how did that make you feel? >> i didn't really care. i was thankful for the water because i had oc gas in my eyes. but i didn't really notice or care. >> it didn't mic you feel like they approved of what you were doing? >> no. >> it didn't make you feel like you're emboldened now to go out there and act on their behalf? >> no. >> let's play the video here please. >> pause. >> you yelled something friendly, friendly, i'm not sure how many times you yelled friendly out. >> yes. >> this is, if i could use the

pointer, you are crossing on the west side of sheridan road. you're crossing south across 60th street here heading across the police line, which had barricaded across 60th. fair? >> yes. >> you understood at this moment that you are now entering a crowd of whatever you want to call them. protesters, demonstrators, your attorneys called them rioters or looters or whatever. that's who you're going to now be part of. you're going to be in that crowd. right? >> i was walking through. i had as friendly and i was there to help them. >> because you had to do that to warn these people that i'm on your side. right? >> i told them that i was friendly. >> because if you didn't say that, you were worried they

would see you as hostile. correct? >> can you re-ask the question? >> absolutely. if you're going to go up to dominic black, you don't need to tell him you're friendly because they know you're friends. we don't tell this to our friends. >> yeah. >> we say friendly to people that aren't our friends. people that might be hostile to us. right? >> yeah, i said it to them because they were throwing rocks at me. when i told them i was friendly, they stopped throwing rocks at us. >> to be accurate, they were throwing them at bear cats. one hit an armored vehicles and bounceed off towards you. >> yeah. >> it didn't do any damage to that armored vehicle, did it? >> not that i'm aware of. >> can you imagine trying to

harm an armored vehicle with a rock. that's pretty hard to do. but no one was throwing rocks at you and ricochet. so you wanted to let these people know, hey, i might look like i'm on the other side, but i'm really friendly. fair? >> i wasn't on any side. >> i didn't say that. you might appear to them. that was what you were worried about right. i notice you looking over at your attorney a lot. i'm trying to ask you. >> he's looking directly at mr. binger and i'm behind him. he accused mr. rittenhouse of looking at his attorney. does he want him to look at the ceiling? >> i'll continue, your honor. you at this very moment announced yourself as friendly because you were worried that

the people on the other side of that street would see you as hostile. fair? >> i can't tell you how i think they would see me, but i just told them i was friendly. >> i want to make sure you understand my question because i was asking you what you thought when yo said this. you announced yourself as friendly. because you thought at that very moment, i'm walking into a group that is hostile to me. isn't that true? >> they were throwing rocks at the armored police cars. >> you felt it was necessary to tell them friendly, friendly so they wouldn't do anything to you. fair? >> yes. >> let's continue.

>> there's a person that comes up to you carrying a skateboard. do you see that? >> i do. >> he's got some fire extingishers thrown over his shoulder. he says something to you about putting out fires. you respond, they know, they know. did i understand what you said correctly there? they know? >> that's what i just heard, but i don't it remember that interaction other than helping the guy after with the shoulder. >> that's going come up in a second here. when you're talking about the fire extinguishers, do you remember anything a about that conversation? >> it's hard to recall, but i think it was about putting out fires. who is they?

>> i don't recall. >> any idea what you were talking about? >> i don't. >> it seems to me that this person is suggesting he's going to put out some fire asks you're assuring him that you don't need to. it's okay. would that be a fair interpretation? >> no. >> but you don't remember what was going on? >> i don't remember the conversation what was about. >> this is one of the guys in the group that you later got your fire extinguisher from. >> no. >> we'll get to that in a second. let's continue. >> it's a little spicy that's

all. >> you walking around asking people and you talked earlier about treating a couple somebody at the 59th streetcar source. >> minor injuries. >> when you were walking around outside that property, when you're out in the street, announcing what you're announcing, did anybody respond and say, yeah, i need help from you. >> yes. >> when was that? >> i don't recall an exact time, but somebody cut their finger open and i gave them some gauze

and some bandage tape. >> was that before or after this? >> before. >> where physically did that happen? >> i don't recall. >> was this the situation where you announced or yelled out that you could help and somebody said, yeah, i need some help. is that what wept on? >> yes. >> as you're walking along here from this point until the end, until you shoot him, no one in this crowd ever says to you, yeah, i do need medical. come over and help me. correct? >> yes. >> let's continue.

>> this is the individual who accuses you of pointing your gun at them, right? >> yes. >> he says that you did so when he was on a vehicle. >> yes. >> in fact, he had been at the 59th street it car source location climbing on, sitting on, jumping on one of the vehicles in that lot, hadn't he? >> not that i'm aware of. i know i heard testimony to that. but i don't remember seeing him a at that location. >> but he accuses you of that here. >> he does. >> you tell him basically, yeah, i did point the gun at you, right? >> i shrugged it off and said, yeah, i did, sarcastically meaning i didn't, but i just didn't want a confrontation. so i was like, i did, and walked away. >> why it you lie to him? >> i didn't loi. i was using sarcasm.

>> the words you said, yeah, i did. those weren't true, were they? >> we're now fighting over sarcasm? this is a murder trial. >> go ahead. >> when you told that individual, yeah, i did point a gun at you, that wasn't true. >> i didn't point a gun at him. >> so why did you react to him that way in that particular moment? >> i thought that would be the best way to avoid conflict. i just said i did sarcastically like i don't know what you're talking about. >> what conflict were you trying to avoid? >> any conflict. he was accusing me of something i didn't do, so i thought the best thing would be -- the best thing to do would be to walk

away instead of getting into some argument. >> but you didn't just walk away. you said to him sarcastically, yeah, i did. >> i said sarcastically i did and walked away. >> because you were worried about a conflict. what conflict were you worried about? >> a verbal argument. >> this individual is clearly expressing to you that he's not happy because he thought you pointed your gun at him. correct? >> yes. >> you can understand why someone would be upset when you point an ar-15 a at them. correct? >> yes. >> you knew that even before of this, right? >> yes. >> in fact, back at the 59th streetcar source, that crowd that you described as not having any friction, many in it that crowd got upset because they thought people in your group were pointing their laze sort pointers at them. >> i saw it in the video, but i

don't know what other people were doing. >> i'm not saying anybody was. i'm saying the crowd was upset. you knew that. you heard them complaining. correct? >> watching the videos, yes. >> even at that time, that night, you heard the crowd upset because they thought members of your group were pointing their laze sort pointers at them. do you remember that? >> sort of. i remember ryan saying something. like telling the people to stop pointing lasers at people or something. i don't really remember that. >> ryan bull. was telling the people in your group to stop doing that. >> the people on the roof. >> who were part of your group, right? >> that were there, yes. >> so you know when we're talking bt laser pointers, we're talking about the site at the end of some guns that almost like this.

if somebody does this at me, that could be someone pointing a a gun, correct? >> it could be seen as that. >> that's what the crowd was complaining about. right? >> yeah. >> so you knew from that crowd incident and you certainly knew from this incident that when people have guns pointed at them, it can really escalate the situation. correct? >> yeah, i don't think anybody had lasers on their guns. >> let's go back to your group at 59th street. you didn't know any of those people other than dominic and nick smith, right? >> yes. >> you had just met ryan for the first time three or four hours before this video. >> yeah. >> you just met jason for the first time, only a few minutes before this. because he didn't get in until 10:45. >> correct. >> at this point in the video this is probably 11:30 at night.

>> about 35 minutes prior to that. >> and probably it only spent 10 or 15 minutes a the all in the same location as jason before he walks off. >> yes. >> so again, jason was someone you had never the met before that night. >> correct. >> you barely spent any time with him that night. >> correct. >> the people up on the roof, other than dominic and nick smith, you didn't know any of them before that night either. correct? >> i knew dominic and nick smith. those are the two people i knew. >> other than that, you didn't know anyone else before this night, fair? >> correct. >> you're still walking with ryan in thi. >> i thought i was at the time, but seeing hindsight view, i'm not.

>> when you decided to cross 60th with ryan, you two talked about the fact if you get separated to go back to the 59th streetcar source. >> i don't recall that conversation happening. >> but you tried to do that, didn't you? >> i did. >> because you felt like if i'm out here by myself, that's not good. i need to head back. >> yes. >> and you also talked to ryan about the fact that when you get out into this crowd, keep your mouth shut. don't antagonize them. didn't ryan talk to you about that? >> no, we didn't talk about that. >> so at this very moment you're telling us you lost track of ryan. >> a little bit ahead, but around that time, yes. >> let's continue the video. >> pause. you have just walked off the

screen heading east across sheridan road to the ultimate gas station. >> yes. >> at that point in time, you don't know where ryan is. >> when i stop and look around, yes. >> and instead of deciding to head back at this point, you go over to ultimate gas and you talk to some folks over there. fair? >> i walk over to the ultimate gas station and i walk around and i try to see if i could find ryan. >> you couldn't do that. >> no. >> so then you decided to approach the police line and cross back. correct? >> yes. >> because you decided your best course of action at that point would be to return to the same group that you have been with. >> yes. >> now at that moment in time, the police had pushed everybody south of 60th. right? >> sort of. i don't really know. >> south of 60th.

>> let's go back a little bit. we watched that interis view with richie where he comes up to you and talks to you. tumor that? >> yes. >> and you're standing there at the 59 9 street property. >> i am. and he talks to you about what you're going to do and you're going to run out and help people and things like that. >> yes. >> at that point, the police had already passed with all the bear cats and armored vehicles. >> it's what it looks like. >> they had established a line on 60th and sheridan, correct? >> yes. >> they pushed all of the protesters, demonstrators, rioters, whatever you want to call, all of them south of 60th. >> i don't know if i can honestly answer all of them. i believe there are some people still north down sheridan and across the street. >> so we saw a crowd earlier of lots of protesters out in the

street. that it group, the numbers had dwindled quite a bit. >> yes. >> so after the police move everybody south, there's no more actual threats. >> i don't know. >> at that moment in time, what eminent threats did you see to the 59th streetcar source property? >> i don't know. >> do you remember seeing any protesters out there the street in front of the car source after the police pushed everybody south of 60th? >>. >> i believe there was some across the street but not many. i can't recall completely.

fpz. >> none of those people came across to the car source. >> so you didn't see that. >> fair to say after the police pushed everybody south, you never saw any people threatening that property, correct? >> i didn't see anybody. >> and your goal that night, you took it upon yourself to protect the 59th street property, correct? >> the owners asked. >> sure. but you were going to station yourself at that property to try to protect it from damage. fair? >> the car source location, yes. >> once the police had pushed everybody south of that, there was no more danger. >> at that car source location, yes. >> so why not go home at that point? >>. >> because i still -- the police

were still pushing people back and they were backing up. i was still helping people provide medical first aid. >> so the police had established the line at 60th with their bear cats at that point. >> yes. they were going to move back north again that you saw. correct? >> no, they did it earlier in the night where they did the same thing. >> right, but this is at 11:30 at night and they have established that line and as far as you can tell, it's going to stay there. >> you talked about medical help, but there's no one around that needs medical help at that point. is there? >> not that i noticed. >> so you don't have any purpose there anymore. do you? >> so why not go home? >> because i was going to help people with provide first a aid

and medical assistance. but that wasn't the reason you were there. you were there to protect the car source. >> it was part of my reason was to prkt the car source properties and provide first aid and medical assistance. >> so you went out in the crowd like we see in this video looking for anyone who needed your help. >> if somebody asked that they need help, i would have helped them. >> so why go with ryan? >> because you're safer and better in pairs when there's somebody else that's also with you. >> so you were worried about your safety? >> a little bit. >> even though you think this is not a hostile crowd and you're there to help them, you were still worried about your safety.

s if. >> i said i didn't think they were hostile towards me. i didn't say they were not a hostile crowd. >> let me rephrase my question. you didn't think that was a crowd that was hostile to you personally and you thought you were going to help them. but yet you also felt you needed a backup, an armed infran try man to help you. fair? >> yes. >> yet when he's gone, you can't find him, you don't immediately go back, right? >> i look for him for a second and then i think i looked for like three minutes and then i tried to go back. >> when you couldn't get back across the police lines, did you decide to try to go around the police lines? for example, the ultimate gas station is here at 60th and sheridan. why didn't you walk down the

street and go over this way and around? >> i don't know. >> why didn't you go west over this way and go around? >> i don't know. i guess it was very close in time that i was heading back that i was turned down by the police before i got the phone call. i guess i didn't have time to think which ways i can go around. >> you knew the layout of downtown kenosha because you said you drove that area the whole time. right? >> a little bit. >> so you go over to the gas station and spend time talking with folks that are there who are similarly dressed as you. they have similar clothing, similar weapon. >> similar weapons, i wouldn't say similarly dressed. >> but you went over there because you felt that those were

people doing something similar to what you were doing that night. fair? >> that would be the safest spot for me to go. >> why did you think you would be safe with those people? >> because i was alone and they were, you're better in pairs. i didn't want to be alone in that situation. >> you didn't want to be alone out here with this crowd that we see on the screen right now. >> i did not want to be alent with them. >> you wanted to be with the group at ultimate gas that had ar-15s like you, right? >> i wanted to be back at the car source where there weren't people around. >> we talked about that. but initially, you go to ultimate gas, but you also talked to people who have ar-15s just like you. >> i wouldn't say i talked to them. i asked after the phone call i asked for a fire extinguisher to

come with me. >> lest play exhibit 11. this is the live stream when he's in the ultimate gas lot.

mr. rittenhouse, that's ryan standing there in the ultimate gas lot. correct? >> yes. >> let's play this. >> it we just saw you run through this video, correct? >> yes. >> i started this video at the 54 minute and 30 second mark. it's now paused at the 54 minute and 56 second mark. so for 26 seconds, kory has ryan

on screen, center of this video, during that entire time, right? >> yes. >> and you run right past where kory is standing, right? >> yes. >> and ryan is loitering there in the middle of the screen for at least 26 seconds. right with? >> it's what it looks like on the screen. >> your testimony is you were trying your best to find ryan at the ultimate gas station at this point because you needed him to protect you with? >> i was looking for ryan, but i didn't notice him as i was running away, running towards car source. >> but for 26 seconds he's standing right there. >> yes, and when he's standing right there before i run with the fire extinguisher, i'm over here on the phone with dominic black. >> how long was your phone call? >> about 30 seconds.

>> so wildfire that, you were looking for ryan? >> before that, i tried to get back to the car source lot number 1. >> and you had also been looking for ryan. >> yes, seeing if i could see him in the crowd of people. >> because you wanted a partner, a buddy to protect you. >> to protect each other, yes. >> and in fact, when you borrowed that fire extinguisher, you asked someone in that group to come along with you because you wanted someone there to protect you when you go down and put out what you think are some fires. right? >> yes. >> because you know that you're running into a crowd that is not friendly to you. right? >> no. >> that's why you had to say the word friendly, friendly, friendly because you knew this was a crowd that would not see you as friendly. correct? >> i screamed friendly,

friendly, friendly because somebody screamed burn. >> not at that time. >> and you also wanted someone from that it group to come along with you when you're going to go down put out a fire because you knew full well that anyone running around like you putting fires out is going to cause a reaction. >> i wanted someone to come with because you're better in pairs. i thought there were other people at that car source before i got there. >> if you're selling us that dominic black called you to run three blocks down the road to put out a fire at the 63rd streetcar source, then you must have known at that moment there wasn't anyone else down there,

right? why would you need to go if somebody is already down there? >> mr. black said to me on the phone, hey, they are setting fires at the other car source. i need you to get down there and put out the fires. i don't think i took it as there's not other people down there. >> why would you need to go three blocks down if there were already people there? >> to help. >> he's told us he thought there were. so i'm probing the basis of that and his understanding at the time. >> i'll repeat the question. why would you need to run three blocks down to the 6 3rd car source if you thought there were already people there? >> i thought there were people there, but dominic asked me to go down there, i thought it was to help put out the fires that were down there.

>> this video that we're watching is minutes after you've left the car source, right? >> yes. >> and when you leaf the car source, you're with ryan and then this reporter richie mcginnis. as far as you know whrks you leave 59th streetcar source, everybody in your group is still back there? >> at the car source -- yes. >> everybody is still back there? >> yes. >> anyone else, they are all still there, right? >> at that location, yes. >> so none of your group is already down at 63rd streetcar source, right? >> the other group that showed up after we got done taking the pictures with two or three vans, i believe they were still down there. >> that was two or three vans of people that came out with what

have been described as melee weapons. like bats and clubs and things like that. do you recall that testimony? >> i do. >> do you remember seeing those two or three vans come to that location? >> i to. >> do you remember seeing people get out of of those vans? >> yes. i saw maybe six people. >> you saw them with weapons? >> i saw them with rifles. i don't think i remember melee weapons. >> they were armed. and you believed that they were going to be the ones protecting the 63rd streetcar source. >> yes. >> so at this point in time, had anybody told you that those folks had left had the 63rd street car source? >> no. >> when you're running, you think there's already a group that's designated to that spot that's still down there. right? >> yes. >> so again, why do you feel

that you needed to run three blocks down with a fire extinguisher if you thought people were down this protecting the property. >> because dominic called me and asked me to help put out the fires down this. >> in that phone call, dominic never told you that any of the members of the 59th street group that you were part of, he never said any of them were down there at 63rd, right? >> yes. >> he never told you the group supposed to be down there, he never said anything about them. he never mentioned them? >> it didn't come up. and sgl and you asked the people that you got the fire extinguisher from to come with you. right? >> yes. >> you were looking for ryan for backup. >> i was looking around for him, yes. >> you had already tried to go back to the 59th street location. >> yes. >> and all of those failed. >> yes. >> so you decide to take it upon

yourself to head down to 63rd street to put out fires. fair? >> i couldn't say that. i would say i want to put out the fires that i was there to do what -- when i say protect the property, i mean by put out fires. so i went to go put out the fires. i just believed there were people there. >> you brought your ar-15 along. >> yes. >> why? >> because it was with me already. >> but you had take it off earlier when you were trooeting someone. >> yes. >> so you know how to take it off, don't you? >> yes. >> you can make a choice on your own whether or not to go armed with it or whether to give it to the person who is the lawful owner of it on that date dominic black, correct? >> i didn't take my rifle off there because there was nobody i could hand it to.

when i took it off to hand it to joanne, i was in a safe spot in the corner of the building where there were people protecting me at that time right there. when i went to go to the car source to put out the fire, there was nobody i could hand my rifle to to protect me providing first aid. >> but you still knew you had it strapped around your body. >> yes. >> and you made a conscious decision to bring it along. >> yes. >> why? >> he answered about how it. >> was it simply i already have it strapped on so i might as well bring it along. you decided to bring it along because i've already got it. is that your answer? >> i don't think i was thinking like i'm going to take my rifle.

there was people around that could have stolen my gun and i didn't -- i didn't take my rifle off because i was going there alone. i was running there alone. i didn't take it off because no one else was there to protect me as i was going there. so that's why i brought it. >> for protection. >> yes. >> you brought it along down there because you felt like you would need to protect yourself against someone else harming you. correct? >> if that would have happened, i would have protected myself, but i didn't think i was going to be attacked and ambushed. >> but you just said you had it for protection. what were you expecting you would need protection from? >> i thought we covered much of this before.

>> i'm focusing in on the time period where he is heading down to the 63rd car source. >> when you decided to bring your ar-15 loaded with 30 rounds down to the 63rd street source location, what did you think you needed protection against? >> i didn't think i was going to have to protect myself. >> you said you brought it along for protection. >> i did, but i didn't think i was going to need to protect myself. >> you didn't think you needed protection? >> i'm trying to clarify the two answers that i think he just

gave. >> go ahead. >> do you understand the question? >> not really. >> i asked why you brought the gun. you said you needed for protection. i said protection against what. you said you didn't think you needed protection. i'm confused. help me understand why you're telling us you needed a gun for protection but you didn't think you needed protection. >> i brought the gun for my protection. but i didn't think i would have to use the gun and end up defending myself. >> so in this video, you are running. >> yes. >> you run across the screen. >> yes. >> and then i think you testified that as you made it down the block, you stopped running and you walked for a little while. is that right? >> i jogged and walked occasionally. >> carrying the fire extinguisher and the gun.

>> yes. >> and you're alone at that point with no backup. >> you testified when you got down to the car source, you indicated that you came upon that vehicle we were calling the durst max. and you indicated that when you got there, you saw a person. is that right? >> i walked up to the durst max. >> no. >> you hadn't taken any notice at all up until that moment. >> this is the first time you see this is a person that comes to your attention. fair?

>> i dropped the fire extinguisher and you hear or see him coming from behind you. >> i when i get to the durst max, i step forward and then he turns towards me and steps towards me. i dropped the fire extinguisher, stepped back and that's when i see, i go to run back towards 59th street. >> and he's coming. >> and then that's when i noticed him running at me leaving me with no other -- he was in front of me with the gun. he was a couple feet away and some other people. >> then the chase happens. is that fair to say? >> yes.

>> have you told us everything that you did when that situation just happened at the durst max? >> yes. >> can we play the ipad please? with the drone video. this is exhibit number 73. >> what are you guys going to do?

>> mr. rittenhouse, this is a video that has been admitted into evidence as exhibit number 73. this is a video taken by a drone that was hovering south of 63rd at the time that you shot mr. rosenbalm. we're going to play the beginning of this video on the ipad and i'm going to have detective howard use the pinch and zoom feature to zoom in on the area. >> i'm going to object to this.

>> let's take a break. please don't talk about the case during the break. the prosecution cross-examines him as ridden house takes the stand in his own

defense charged with two counts of homicide after last summer's deadly shooting at a racial justice protest in kenosha, wyss. you have seen the prosecution questioning ridden house who was 17 at the time about why he brought a gun to the dmo demonstration that night. now the jury is out of the room as the attorney speaks with the judge. >> i think they went upstairs. go ahead. >> i don't know what the state is going to do next, but i suspect that it is something along the lines of they are going use the ipad and mr. binger was talking about pinching the screen. ipads, which are made by apple have artificial intelligence in them that allow things to be viewed through three dimensions and logarithms. >> what? >> long rhythms. i don't understand it all either. it uses artificial intelligence or their logarithms to create

what they believe is happening. so this isn't actually enhanced video. this is apple's ipad. practicing creating what it thinks is there, not what necessarily is there. what i don't know what's going to happen, but we had this video enhanced. we have testimony regarding it. and this is one of the topics that came up. i asked my expert. i said, do you know of anything that does something like that? because that was when the detective testified about pinching his telephone. and that's what i was told and that's where i think this is going. and i don't think that it's appropriate. it's -- it's wrong. >> mr. binger? >> your honor, i think everybody in this room has a smart phone, whether it is an apple iphone or some other device. and i think we've all taken a

photograph or a video at one point or another and used the pink to zoom in feature. this is a common part of everyone's everyday life. in the olden days, you had a photograph and a magnifying glass, right? that doesn't change the photograph. when you use a tag any phiing glass to look at words on a paper or a photograph, the magnifying glass doesn't change the image. it doesn't change the pixels on the paper. it doesn't change the words in the book. all it does is make them easier to see. the pinch and zoom feature on the ipad or the iphone or android phone, whatever device everyone in this room has, does that exact same thing. now f counsel has an expert who will say that this is unreliable or distorting the image or something along those lines even though this is something everyone in this room has done with countless videos and photos throughout the 20 -- ten years

of our lives here, this is a fact -- this is a feature of everyday life in america now with smart phones. if they want to have an expert come in and say it is unreliable and you can believe what's on that screen, they can do that. it will be in the case. and then it will be up to the jury to determine whether or not pinching and zooming on an ipad or an iphone is tampering with the video or altering the image or unreliable or shouldn't be given any weight. so if they want to make a jury question out of this, they are free to do so. we are still under case in chief. but i don't frankly understand or agree with anything counsel just said. i have used my phone. i think probably you have, too, i think this is something within everyone's common knowledge to pinch and zoom on a screen ask. that's what's going on here. it does not change the image in any way. it just magnifies it. >> i don't know. when i put the magnifying glass

up then it is enlarging image. it is not altering the image. what he's saying, i think -- and i know less than anyone in the room here i'm sure about all this stuff. but i'm hearing him to say that there are actually artificially inserting pixels, into this which is altering the object which is being portrayed. you know what, myself, when confronted with these changes in technology, what i usually do is to have -- to admit the evidence, but make sure that the finder of fact is aware of the fact that it is not the original image and the method by which it has been enhanced. you are suggesting that i should make the defense bring in an expert for it. my -- my thought would be that, actually, you are the one who is offering the exhibit, so you should be in a position to offer

evidence as to the fact that it is not distorting the object which is depicted. >> i would smith, your honor, that i think it's common sense to everyone in this room that that's not what's going on here. what counsel is saying about apple's software and logarithms and everything like that, he's not the person in this room most familiar with. >> i thought i heard the expert say on the stan -- believe me, this is not something aim familiar with. but i thought i heard the expert say that you brought down from the crime lab, in fact there were alterations made by adding pixels. that's an alteration of the image. i don't have any problem with it being received but you are going to have someone testify that it is a reliable -- i don't want to say mirror image, but -- because, obviously, if you insert more items into a area of

space, it's going to distort what's depicted. >> i think, urn, when the pinch and zoom maneuver is used on a screen, it actually -- it almost -- it takes the high resolution that we see here and it brings it in to the point where the pixels are actually spread out more. >> you know what, i am not going to accept as accurate what mr. richards is saying. i am not going to accept what you are telling me. i said, if you can offer somebody who is knowledgeable in these areas the document or the -- i think you should be allowed to use the image. but this is high risk. to me, if -- to me, if you insert more data into an area of space -- you are wagging your head no. tell me where i am wrong. >> there is no proof in this record that we are doing that, your honor. >> i didn't say there was proof

in it. i said you have the burden of proof. you are the proponient of the exhibit, and you need to tell me that it is reliable. >> the exhibit is already in evidence, your honor. >> that i know. >> his exhibit is not an answer. this is not -- >> then why show it? the reason you want to show it is because it enhances the image, right? no, no, no -- one at a time. >> i will say what mr. kraus was just saying. the defense has taken videos and photos and cropped them, zoomed in on them, on many exhibits in this trial. this is, again, like i said, the magnifying glass is not changing the image. what the expert testified to about his software program was that he uses, i think he called it am far 5 or something like that. it was a software program he was using to create the additional images in the exhibits that were introduced with regard to this drone video. he talked about what that

software program does. he was not talking about the common, ordinary, everyday pinch and zoom feature on the apple. they are two different things, your honor. i want to be precise about this because i don't think it is fair from the point the technical video editing software being used boy a crime lab with pinching and zming on an iphone. there are different software procedures, and different procedures, i don't think it is fair -- >> you have been watching the homicide trial of kyle rittenhouse who you see on screen as the judge and talking with both the defense attorneys and the prosecution in a trial we are taking live to air, which means you have seen some disturbing images. you have heard some profanity. we apologize for that. we will have coverage on that later tonight on msnbc as well as nightly news. we will see you back here on msnbc tomorrow. "deadline: white house" begins right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. you heard congressman shawn

patrick maloney's urgent plea for the president to sell the massive infrastructure package in cities around the country during this program yesterday to fortify democrats ahead of the mid terms. that effort begins in earnest in just a few minutes. president biden will take the stage at an event in baltimore to tout the benefits of the new infrastructure package. we will bring you those remarks when they begin. we start this hour with the boom being lowered on donald trump's attempt to stonewall the january 6th select committee. a decision by a federal judge overnight handsing the committee a big win in its fight to get their hands on donald trump's records. the judge rulings that trump's claims of executive privilege do not hold up. give that the sitting president, president joe biden, has waived the right. the decision reads in part plaintiff donald trump does not acknowledge the deference owed to the incumbent. president's judgment, his position is that he may override the express will of the executive branch appears to be premised on the not