case. but homer blessy never got to see that victory. he pled guilty to violating the separate car act and was fined $25,000. he died in 1925 with that unjust conviction on his record and the knowledge that plessy vs. ferguson segregated but equal is the law of the land. an unlikely duo has been working together to clear mr. plessy's name. they're the descendants of homer plessy and judge ferguson. both sides petitioned to clear plessy's record, and today almost 125 years after his conviction that board voted unanimously to do the right thing. the pardon now goes to the governor for approval. and finally, justice that's been a long time coming. that does it for us tonight.

rachel will be back on monday. now it's time for the "last word" with my friend jonathan capeheart in for lawrence tonight. good evening, jonathan. >> good evening, ali. what a great way to end the show. i didn't know that story. how fantastic. >> we talk about plessy vs. ferguson all the time, the idea plessy never got his justice until today is a -- we don't often get to end the show on nice things but that was a good one to do it on. >> yeah, and it's a reminder that justice might take a while but eventually justice does happen. ali, thank you very, very much. i'll see you on sunday. >> have a great show. all right. breaking tonight a federal grand jury has indicted former trump advisor steve bannon on two counts of contempt of congress. the indictment comes 22 days after the house of representatives voted to send a criminal contempt referral to the justice department after bannon refused to comply with subpoenas from the house select committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capital seeking deposition

testimony and documents from him. according to the indictment bannon had not communicated with the select committee in any way since accepting service of the subpoena on september 24th. attorney general merrick garland and the department of justice have been under immense pressure to hold bannon accountable. tonight garland said, "since my first day in office i've promised justice department employees that together we would show the american people by word and deed that the department adheres to the rule of law, follows the facts and the law and pursues equal justice under the law." nbc news is reporting that bannon is expected to turn himself into law enforcement on monday. he's scheduled to appear in court monday afternoon. bannon is facing up to one year in prison and a $100,000 fine. tonight select committee chairman benny thompson and vice chair liz cheney said steve bannon's indictment should send a clear message to anyone who

thinks they can ignore the select committee or try to stonewall our investigation. no one is above the law. we will not hesitate to use the tools at our disposal to get the information we need. select committee member jamie raskin said this about steve bannon's indictment on msnbc last hour. >> here we pursued criminal contempt and that's just a crime. it was a criminal offense. he violated the law when he stood us up, when he blew off the subpoena. and he violated the law when he refused to produce the documents and the papers we were looking for. but at the same time on a parallel track, if we bring a civil contempt action against him the courts also have the power to compel him to testify and to bring us those documents. and if he doesn't, he can be held, again, behind bars. but he has the key to his own freedom as the contempt of bar says because all he has to do is

testify and turn over the documents and he can get out of jail on the civil contempt side. but on the criminal contempt side if he's found guilty he could be sentenced to jail or to probation, work some other kind of diversionary punishment. >> leading off our discussion tonight democratic congressman eric swalwell of california. he served as house impeachment manager during the second impeachment trial of donald trump. congressman swalwell, welcome back to the "last word." you were part of both impeachment investigations in the trump era. what do you make of this indictment? >> there's a new sheriff in town, frankly, jonathan and the rule of law matters again in america. look, for the last couple of years steve bannon has run around like a thug in a movie where the gang has the police and the local judge in their pocket, and he's acted as if he could, you know, act with impunity and laws didn't matter, almost like he was a piert in

international waters. and he never hid the fact he believed that, really just defying the law. and being pardoned by donald trump for bilking many americans out of their hard earned money when they thought it was going to building the wall. and then, of course, just recently not showing up when he was supposed to for this january 6th committee. but we're not seeking this contempt order and we're not celebrating steve bannon, you know, being indicted because he's a bad guy -- and jonathan, he's a bad guy. this is important because what happened on january 6th could happen again. if we don't understand who was around the president, who financed january 6th, what the mind-set was, it will happen again. >> there was a lot of concern on lots of shows on this network and among a lot of people about the fact it was quote-unquote taking too long, taking attorney general merrick garland too long

to do what he ended up doing today. do you think that the attorney general took too long? or did he walk through the process at the pace that it needed to be done? >> i didn't think he took too long, and i was not in the camp that was too worried. i frankly appreciated having an attorney general who was independent again. and i was going to reserve judgment until a decision was made on this, and i think the right call was made. and now the question is for mark meadows and so many other of the president's enablers on january 6th do you want to go the way of bannon and be indicted and hauled into court, or do you want to cooperate? if you don't want to cooperate, jonathan, then we should just draw the inference you don't want to cooperate because you're protecting the guilt of donald trump or the guilt of yourself. >> congressman swalwell, do you think we're putting too much emphasis on this indictment of bannon? i'm just wondering does it bode well for the select committee investigating waiting for more testimony and documents in a

court ruling on executive privilege that what the justice department did to bannon is going to send this -- really, truly, send the signal that will be heeded by all these other people that got slapped with subpoenas this week. >> yeah, it bodes well for justice. you know, this isn't about red team versus blue team. this is about whether the rule of law matters anymore and whether people around the former president are above the law or if they have to follow the same laws you and i have to follow. and the department signaled today for first time in nearly 40 years that if you defy a congressional subpoena you will be held to account. and now those dozens of others who have indicated they're not going to come in, my money is, jonathan, they're going to be ringing the phones of the select committee over the weekend to try and schedule their appearances. >> you know, last night on "all in," eric holder, the former attorney general explained the defense between subpoenaed witnesses not testifying in the

january 6th investigation and why he did as attorney general. let's listen. >> i've testified nine times in connection to the fast and furious, knowing that it was a kangaroo court i was going before, but out of respect to the institution, out of respect to congress i thought i had to go. in spite of the fact louie gohmert and all the other idiots on the oversight committee were doing things inconsist with their oaths. it was political. i understood that, but i didn't think as attorney general i could refuse to go. didn't request a subpoena. if they asked me to come, i showed up. and as i said on nine occasions i did that. >> do you think that was a consideration for doj that this wasn't a good faith refusal of a subpoena but an attempt to nuke the process? >> yes. and it was a tonuation of what had happened under the prior administration in the russia investigation, when don megan would not cooperate with the judiciary committee on what he

had seen as obstruction of justice by the president. in the first impeachment of donald trump as it related to the ukraine scandal, and of course in the second impeachment where witnesses told us if we subpoenaed them they wouldn't come in. so this was the pattern of the donald trump administration. and now, again, there's a sheriff in town that says the rule of law matters. and this matters, jonathan, because the temperature is rising in america. we have a republican party that believes and is more comfortable with violence than voting. and as we go into the mid-terms, if we don't have a rule of law that matters, this party who's bankrupt and void of any ideas to make anyone's life in america better, they will seek to use violence if we don't inoculate ourselves as americans and as institutions against what's coming. >> before i let you go, congressman swalwell, given what happened to steve bannon today, the inindictment.

what do you think mark meadows who was the former chief of staff who was supposed to appear today and didn't, what do you think he'll do? >> he's wondering what's the fastest way to get ahold of the select committee and schedule his appearance. again, mark meadows, look, there's no honor for anyone that defies a subpoena. but steve bannon is pretty evil, and we dealt with him during the russia investigation. he was almost like the joker in the batman movie. mark meadows, i dealt with him, too. that guy doesn't have any principles. he only thinks about himself. i'm not thinking if he's going to go the way of bannon. i think he's going to fold quite quickly and the select committee will hear from him probably pretty shortly. >> all right, congressman eric swalwell of california, and also belated congratulations again on baby hank. >> oh, thank you. thanks so much, jonathan. have a good night. >> joining us now are cynthia oxny and glenn kirschner, both former federal prosecutors and

msnbc legal contributors. welcome back to the "last word." quick reactions from two justice department veterans. cynthia, i'm going to start with you. take a look at the deposition calender for subpoenaed witnesses. do we have it? is it going to come up? there it is. if you notice, cynthia, from november 29th through december 15th with very few exceptions every day there is someone who is due to give -- due to provide deposition testimony in the january 6th select committee. do you expect this indictment of bannon, do you expect this will expedite cooperation from some of these people? >> i do expect it will expedite cooperation. and that's really the most important thing about it because who are we kidding? steve bannon is never going to give any testimony. he'd rather rot in jail and

later make money and fund raise off of it. his rally is really to push those people who were on the fence like do i really want to fight this battle, the second tiered people, those are the ones that will really make a difference. kaley mcenany is never going to give you anything of value. mike flynn is never going to give you anything of any value. it will push those people who know something about the communications between members of congress and the white house and what was going on during the insurrection and who paid for the insurrection and who paid for the buses and who paid for all that. it'll make a difference for them. and that's why i think it's really of value today. >> glenn, steve bannon can afford to pay lawyers for as long as it takes. but are other witnesses willing to bear that cost? >> you know, i can't imagine that now that steve bannon has been criminally indicted actually for two counts for

contempt of congress, one for defying their subpoena to produce documents and a second for just thumbing his nose at congress and declining to even show up, you know, he's facing up to two years in prison. so i have to believe that the other witnesses even people like stephen miller who is scheduled to appear and was yucking it up with one of the hosts of the fox entertainment network the other night, laughing about how, oh, you're not going to comply. you're not going to appear pursuant to a congressional subpoena. i have a feeling those people are now going to think twice before running the risk of being criminally indicted, tried and ultimately potentially imprisoned. so i think this will have an important impact on the house select committee investigation moving forward. >> i want to get both of you on this, and i'll start with you, cynthia. steve bannon is arguing for executive privilege as an excuse

to not comply with congress. and according to the indictment, i'm going to read this. stephen k. bannon was a private citizen for approximately seven months in 2017, more than three years before the events of january 6th, 2021, bannon was employed in the executive branch of the u.s. government as the chief strategist and countsler to the president. after departing the white house in 2017 bannon did not work again in any executive branch or federal government position. so, cynthia, can bannon prove his refusal to comply was in good faith using executive -- using the executive privilege argument following the advice of his lawyer? >> i don't think he can. but before we get too far on that, let me say i think there is an -- there is somewhere in the executive privilege argument for people who work outside the government. i mean, just imagine if biden decided he was going to ask obama for some advice and obama had not been in the white house

for a long time. i mean, i think there is room in the executive privilege argument speaking to somebody outside of government. but that doesn't apply here. "a," he didn't show up and assert it. "b," he never followed through when he was supposed to do the documents. "c," he never answered questions about everybody else he had contacts with in the war room. so i don't think it's going to work here, but i don't think we can make a blanket statement that whenever anybody isn't working in the government there can't be executive privilege. >> glenn, real fast, though, a lot of the people given subpoenas this week particularly on tuesday were people who were working for donald trump, who were with him on january 6th when he was still president. does the executive privilege argument apply to them? can they exert executive privilege? >> you know, the people who were actually in the administration at the time, and, you know, during the time of january 6th, you know, they will have a somewhat more viable claim than steve bannon.

steve bannon could have just said i'm invoking magical uniconcern privilege and it would be just as compelling as an executive privilege claim. not to mention all of these people including the ones who were in the administration at the time cannot invoke executive privilege to cover up conversations involving the attempted overthrow of the united states government because that would be very similar to a crime fraud exception. the executive privilege protection was not designed to be invoked to hide attempts to overthrow the government. i think with today's indictment this is virtually the department of justice saying to steve bannon, hey, steve bannon, come to d.c. on monday for your arraignment. we'll be awhile. >> that was a good one. thank you both very much for joining us tonight. we have much more on this breaking news coming up. but first, donald trump, of

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here's a quote that will stop you in your tracks. "the republican party is mainstreaming menace as a political tool." that's how historians described it to "the new york times," but you don't need scholars telling you that. you can see the menace all around the u.s. against elected officials, school board members and health care professionals . it's the growing embrace of trumpian rhetoric. of course the fish rots from the head, so to understand just how bad it's gotten inside the republican party look no further than their fearless leader, donald trump, who we learned today defended the insurrectionists who wanted to kill his own vice president. >> were you worried about him during that siege?

were you worried about his safety? >> no, i thought he was well-protected. and i had heard he was in good shape. no because i had heard he was in very good shape. >> you heard those chants. that was terrible, you know, the -- >> he could have -- well, the people were very angry. >> they were saying hang mike pence. >> because it's common sense -- it's common sense that you're supposed to protect -- how can you? if you know a vote is fraudulent, right, how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to congress? >> and joining us now, maria theresa kumar, president and ceo of voter latino and on msnbc contributor. and former congressman david jolly. he left the republican party in 2018. he's now the national chairman of the serve american movement and an msnbc political analyst. welcome both to the "last word." david, i'll start with you. defending violence, how low will your former party go? >> yeah, very importantly donald

trump has created a permission structure of violent behavior within today's republican party. and that's not to say the entire republican party, certainly not. but they have invited into the republican coalition under donald trump's leadership largely right, largely male right-wing sympathetic extremists that the department of homeland security and our domestic intelligence agencies have identified as a domestic violent threat. and so what you see in those conversations with jonathan, carl and otherwise is not simply just a former president making it about himself suggesting there are constitutional scholars who wrongly think that the election was stolen from donald trump, but what you see is somebody refusing to condemn that potential hanging of the vice president, and in doing so extends this permission structure towards further violence. and i think that's the greatest concern is what our federal agencies have identified, that we could see additional violence and perhaps even the loss of life as a result of rhetoric and the permission structure created

by donald trump. >> right. maria turesa, i don't want to, you know, down-play what donald trump is doing because it's reprehensible, but you know who shouldn't be left off the hook? kevin mccarthy. i would just love to know your thinking on the house minority leader, the leader of the republican conference in the house and the incredible silence we have heard from him after this week, after paul gosar, after marjory taylor green calling the 13 republican members who voted for the bipartisan infrastructure bill traitors. he said nothing. doesn't that add to the permission structure that david is rightly warning about? >> absolutely. and if you look at kevin mccarthy, his own act, his own words, he peddles in this violence. he jokingly said he was going to throw a gavel at pelosi the

moment he became speaker. and it sounds funny, but this is more saying you are signaling what is acceptable. and this whole idea of creating and using words against your fellow colleagues would not be acceptable, jonathan, in any other workplace. and we do not have to look too far in our past to recognize that when violence is used online it does translate into tragedy. we only have to think of what happened in el paso. we only have to think of, sadly, what happened in the tree of life synagogue, and the list goes on in short order of what happened when donald trump did the exact same thing. and every single person that has created such chaos and created the most recent memory of violence has cited reading and inspired by what donald trump has said on his social platforms. it's on the leadership of the republican party to say this is not acceptable because the

moment you're no longer talking about policy and discourse, it becomes an erosion of democracy and a due erosion of trust. >> david, i want to show you some polling data that is scary. polling finds that 30% of republicans and 40% of people who most trust far right news sources believe that, quote, true patriots may have to resort to violence to, quote, save the country. what do you fear could happen as we approach 2022 and 2024? >> here's my great fear about whether the republican has gone, jonathan. it's a very important nuance. from recent history the debate between the two major parties has been over essentially fairness and policy, whether ladders of opportunity are elevating people or taking away from others, marginal tax code, education, whatever it might be. today's republican party particularly under donald trump is supported by mcconnell and mccarthy and others is now suggesting to -- to their voters that something is being taken

from you. your freedom is being taken from you. your place in society, your privilege. something is being taken from you. and once that narrative sets in, then that gives you permission to do whatever it takes to protect yourself. and that is the power that donald trump and today's republicans have tapped into. and to maria theresa point it is up to kevin mccarthy and other republican leaders to say no, that is not the direction of this party. but they've not chosen to stand up to this. and that's why it goes to donald trump and today's architecture of republicans. >> the gop hasn't really seen a backlash to the extremist tone at least not at the polls. so do you think there will ever be an incentive to change? >> i think that when you see what david jolly has done, what steve schmidt has done, when individuals who are part of the republican party trying to sound the alarm and saying we are no longer talking about policy, we

are talking about cultural ideology that is not part of our traditional political spectrum, that is what we have to elevate. the idea you have so many republicans that have been historic republicans saying this is not the party i'm identifying with, i'm leaving the party, i'm no longer running for office, we should sound the alarm bell. we're no longer talking about what is the difference between the left and the right. we're talking about what is democracy and what is autocracy. sadly mitch mcconnell by staying silent they're espousing autocracy at all costs. and that is not only anti-democrat, but at the beginning it may sound like it's a nice idea for a few and the powerful. but when that comes to roost at your doorstep, then it's going to be harmful not just for the minority rule but for the majority of americans. and that is really what we're facing right now. there was a great piece today talking about jay rosen, talking about how we have to start speaking very clearly, how

unusual and how out of the party system the republicans currently are talking because it is going to erode our democracy. and it is going to be, again, a fight between democracy and autocracy and now is the time to stand up. >> nureea theresa kumar, david jolly, thank you for joining us tonight. coming up, did attorney general merrick garland show he is ready to meet the moment when it comes to the assault on our democracy perpetrated in large part by the former president? we'll discuss next. president 'll discuss next ♪ ♪ ♪ hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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in the end it took less than a month for steve bannon to be indicted on contempt charges for refusing to comply with a congressional subpoena. that's not that long, but in the interim many experts were running out of patience. after four years of trump world lawlessness where was the justice department's response? here's professor laurence tribe

with lawrence earlier this week. >> the case is clear. the statute says that when congress refers someone who is in contempt of congress, refers them to prosecution, a u.s. attorney should convene a grand jury. when congress returns a contempt citation and asks the justice department to perform its constitutional function, there is just no excuse for any further foot dragging. >> before bannon was indicted former attorney general eric holder made the point that the justice department needs to keep in mind that what the select committee is investigating, the attack on the capitol, the attack on our democracy is fundamentally different from other congressional investigations. >> ultimately, this will be a decision i suspect will be made by the attorney general. they'll apply the facts. they'll look at the law. my hope would be that people would understand that this is different.

this is different. this isn't fast and furious with some kind of political dispute. this is about people who were trying to stop the transfer of power in our -- in our government, people who were attacking our democracy. this is fundamentally different. >> and here again is what merrick garland said today. "since my first day in office i have promised justice department employees that together we would show the american people by word and deed that the department adheres to the rule of law, follows the facts and the law and pursues equal justice under the law. today's charges reflect the department's steadfast commitment to these principles." joining us now are david frum, jonathan alter columnist for the daily beast and msnbc political analyst. david frum, what does this indictment signal? confidence merrick garland is up to the task of defending an attack on democracy? >> contempt of congress cases

are rarely brought and are hard to win. and i think a lot -- i understand why there are a lot of people want to be very cautious about advancing with this one. i think it's less important to measure whether merrick garland filled the role than for people to begin to understand what's ahead because there's a kind of incompatibility of world views. bannon is a trickster. he's a jokester. he's going to be abbey hoffman playing in the courtroom of chicago 7. this is his opportunity, and he doesn't use law the way the justice department and merrick garland do. it's asymmetrical combat and may go in very unexpected directions that bannon and the trump people behind him are going to be ready to weaponize and exploit. >> jonathan, one thing we've heard repeatedly from judges in the cases of january 6th rioters is that punishments must serve as deterrents. do you think this bannon indictment deters others in this

investigation? >> yeah, i mean i think that will clearly incentivize at least some of the others who have been subpoenaed to comply because, you know, even if the penalty comes out to, you know, one month in jail, which what it sometimes can be in these kinds of cases, who wants that? if you're, say, the -- the secretary mccallum who was doing the robo calls, telling state legislators to take part in the coup attempt, do you really because you followed someone's orders and made those robo calls, do you want to go to jail for that? so i think those witnesses will testify. i don't know how much use they'll be. i think one of the important things today signifies is that

merrick garland who everyone knows is a straight shooter is not going to use the fear that maybe trump and others could be turned into martyrs or somehow make us look like a banana republic, if he arrests people. he's not going to worry about those appearances. he will apply the law fairly. he will execute the law. he reminds me of somebody else like me from the chicago area, edward levee, who gerald ford appointed attorney general after watergate. a pillar of integrity who restored the integrity of the justice department of john mitchell and richard -- besmirched it. he will follow the law. i agree with david there are going to be some curve balls here. there are going to be some tricky things for them to handle, but his north star is just to enforce the law and uphold the rule of law. so any time he's in doubt, he'll

just go back to first principles and i think that's refreshing. >> right. i was going to say after four years of trump it is going to have an attorney general who is independent and follows the -- follows the law rather than the phone ringing from 1600. david, one trauma the country endured during trump is the total inability of any law or check and balance to stop him. he tried. he's still trying to destabilize our democracy, and there's been no penalty for it, none. >> i remain unoptimistic on that point. and i think one of the things that has been a problem -- and the discussion we're having tonight is an example of this. that conscientious legally minded people want to deal with legal problems with legal solutions. and that's why you bring in these federal prosecutors and that's why you say what does

this rule say and case say. his opponents have tried to meet that challenge with legal answers, and it hasn't worked. maybe it'll start working better in the future. i hope so, but i doubt it. >> real quickly, david -- jonathan, just to pick up on what david was saying about folks trying to meet the political problem of what is donald trump in that movement with legal -- with legal solutions, is there a political -- a political fight that could be had other than at the ballot box that could neutralize the menace that's coming from the right? >> well, i'm not sure it can neutralize it, but i think the committee needs to have more public hearings like they did during watergate. they've had one so far where they had the capitol police officers. that was a very moving hearing. a lot of the rest of these folks should be hauled before the cameras, and we should hear the questioning so that there's an

education that goes on. you know, it's come out over the last few weeks. people watching this show understand it, but there was a coup attempt in our country. and the president of the united states when told that a mob wanted to hang his vice president said, no sweat, i'm not going to get involved for 3 1/2 hours when his vice president was in physical danger. i mean, there are really cataclysmic world historical events that took place. and we haven't had the public education of that that we should. and i'm puzzled as to why we haven't. there's still time to do it, and so i agree with david that the legal process has to continue. but the members of the committee, democrats and republicans, have to get smarter on the public education front. >> right. because as we're seeing there on the screen, that was a failed

coup attempt. but the joke goes what do you call a failed coup? practice. david frum, jonathan alter, thank you for joining us tonight. coming up infrastructure week, the sequel. it starts monday. that's next. nday that's next. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! (sighs wearily) here i'll take that! (excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. managing type 2 diabetes? one gram of sugar, on it. -on it. on it, with jardiance. meet the people who are managing type 2 diabetes and heart risk with jardiance. jardiance is a once-daily pill that can reduce the risk of cardiovascular death for adults who also have known heart disease. so it could help save your life from a heart attack or stroke. jardiance also lowers a1c. and it may help you lose some weight. jardiance can cause serious side effects including dehydration, genital yeast or urinary tract infections, and sudden kidney problems.

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i'm convenient and find 92% of colon cancers... ...even in early stages. i'm for people 45 plus at average risk for colon cancer, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider if cologuard is right for you. the biden white house is preparing for a big bipartisan ceremony on monday to sign the big bipartisan infrastructure bill. okay, mitch mcconnell says he won't attend, but republican senator susan collins and lisa murkowski reportedly will. and the action doesn't stop there. speaker pelosi ent a dear colleague letter tonight push ughead on part 2 of the biden agenda which was held up last week because it didn't have a final estimated price tag. pelosi writes, "we are on a path to be further fortified with numbers from the congressional budget office. we expect three additional reports by monday. as always we thank our committee chairs for their leadership as

we work together to advance the president's build back better plan." also next week president biden is heading to swing states to talk about roads and bridges. new hampshire on tuesday and michigan on wednesday. joining us now is e.j. diyoung. hey, i started the morning with you and i'm ending the day with you. >> i just said the same thing to steve, your producer. i'm very happy to do that. >> all right, we don't have a whole lot of time so the big ceremony and an infrastructure tour in addition to promoting publicly what's in the bill. does it help get build back better over the finish line by reminding democrats what it's like to win and deliver and to take control of the narrative? >> that's exactly right what you just said, that they need to grab the narrative back. and they need to -- they need issues at the center of the

debate that are issues where americans agree with them. and i think it's easy to forget you say the government always builds roads and bridges. it's been a long time since a really big infrastructure bill has gotten through congress. throughout this period i followed a congressman a republican from ohio. he said he left congress in 2013 because we can't even build highways anymore. well, guess what? they're building highways. they're building broadband. they're building bridges. they're building transit. and so i think the white house is right to have a big ceremony here. and i think that winning begets winning. and as you suggested at the top of the show pelosi is out there now telling her members, okay, we did this once we can do it again. and despite all the talk where joe manchin is today or yesterday or tomorrow, i just don't think he wants to sink

president biden's program, you know the second key part of his program. so i think eventually he's going to be there. >> all right, so that's joe manchin. so you saved me a question. i want to read you this reporting from cnn about the look ahead to the reconciliation vote. and here's what they report. while democrats are uncertain where manchin will come down, they are far more reassured that arizona senator kyrsten sinema, the other leading moderate will ultimately back the sweeping expansion. a closed door late last month in the senate between -- went a long way toward reassuring progressives that sinema will ultimately vote for the package according to multiple democrats. e.j. dionne, are you similarly reassured that kyrsten sinema is

onboard? >> i am. and in fact, on this show with lawrence a couple weeks back congresswoman jayapal spoke of a very productive meeting she'd had with sinema. sinema that moment wasn't ready to say she was going to vote for this thing. but you've lot of people in and around the white house that when she sat down with them, she was actually serious about negotiating. i think after a very long and complicated journey, she seems to want to land with the rest of the democrats on this. and let's face it. this is half the size, roughly, of what they had hoped for. the progressive democrats have gone a long way to reassure manchin and sinema by giving them a bill the size they said they wanted. >> that's interesting. time will tell. we'll find out maybe this time

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with kids as young as 5 now getting their first doses of the covid vaccine, and boosters soon to be available for everybody else, are we near the end of the covid pandemic? a new article saying this winter the country should fare better. but more than 40% of the u.s. population is not fully vaccinated. and more than 30% have not received any doses. that's more than enough to sustain a raging pandemic, with

a really transmissible virus. joining us now, dr. kevita patel. she's a clinical physician, a brookings institution fellow, and an msnbc contributor. doctor, could this winter surge be as bad as last year's? >> no, it's not. but if you're in about 17 states in the united states, it does feel pretty bad. but the numbers are declining, and unfortunately in some parts increasing, but nowhere near the peaks. we've experienced the delta peak as a country, and as you said, thanks to vaccines, hopefully the next two months will determine how bad it could get if we don't heed some lessons from other countries. and in parts of the states that are heavily vaccinated but are

still experiencing cases. >> is there one country that comes to mind right away? >> i think the uk gets a lot of attention. but it's because they have an incredible public health reporting system. we get incredible amounts of data, and what we're seeing there is playing out over europe, the netherlands, germany, singapore. it seems like a combination of waning immunity. immunity was never meant to be life-long, and for a novel virus, i'm not shocked we need boosters. waning immunity, number one. and jonathan, you've had clips before from europe. people are not wearing masks. ventilation is not discussed as much as it should be. we know that ventilation and well-fitting masks can be the best mitigation measures, especially when people are not vaccinated or you don't know

their vaccination status. >> should we be concerned about the travel restrictions that have been loosened for europe? >> i think, yes, i'm always concerned. i don't think that travel bans as a policy measure are the most effective. it was reassuring to see the vaccine and the testing requirements. i would be even more relieved to see something on the domestic side. as we go into the holiday season, look at what happens in normal holiday seasons. we see an urban to rural, rural to urban travel pattern. that's the exact pattern that could set us up for a different kind of spread, because we'll have mixed households with most vaccinated, some not. paying attention to who you're sharing meals with could be really important this winter. >> we're seeing kids getting shots and adults getting boosters.

is there a chance we could avoid a surge? >> yes, it's never too late. but we need to get unvaccinated people vaccinated, and if it's your time to get a booster, you should do that, especially in this cold season with a highly infectious virus going around. >> i got my booster yesterday. so i'm fully covered. but i'm not going anywhere for thanksgiving. doctor, thanks for joining us tonight. that is tonight's last word. if you tuned in tonight to see the encore presentation of "four seasons total documentary," you can catch that sunday night at 11:00 p.m. on msnbc. and you can watch me on "the sunday show," 10:00 a.m. on msnbc. we have much more coming up. "the 11th hour with brian williams" starts now.

good evening once again. day 297 of the biden administration. and tonight, as we bring a long week to a close, there is a glimmer of possible consequences for one of the most arrogant members of trump's inner circle. steve bannon indicted for contempt of congress. and the other news is about the former trump white house chief of staff mark meadows. he may be headed for the same fate. the grand jury's decision on bannon came this afternoon, 22 days after the house voted to send his case over to the justice department and hold him in contempt. he's been charged with refusing to testify, and refusing to produce documents. house investigators cited bannon's comments the