>> i just say he's running back to that truck. i did not say that he was attacking that vehicle in the statement. >> all right. let's go ahead and go to when you're parked at holmes and sitella. >> yes, ma'am. >> at that point during what we see here, mr. bryan, going up and turning around, mr. arbery had actually run to your white truck? >> yes. yes. he is -- he has ran to my white truck once already at this

point. >> all right. and you ran forward toward him. correct? >> when he turned and ran back, i -- went the following and decided that's the last thing i need to do, and i came back. and he ran around the corner. i lost sight of him, yes, ma'am. >> at that point that he ran to your truck and ran away from your truck, had his hands at his side? >> he did, yeah, running. >> running? >> yes, ma'am. >> didn't run to your truck and pull out a weapon. >> he ran to the truck, but didn't pull out anything, no, ma'am. >> and so he runs up -- how close did he get to the truck the first time? >> probably from me to you at the furthest. i would say it was close, yes, ma'am. >> and you got out of your truck? >> yes, ma'am. >> you got out with a shotgun that time? >> i did not. >> so you got out i don't have your truck and yelled at him. >> as he's getting close to me, yes, i was yelling at him at that point to stop, yes, ma'am.

>> he turned around to run back? >> he did. >> didn't threaten you in any way? >> no. >> didn't verbally threaten you? >> not -- >> yell at you? >> not verbally, no. >> didn't swear at you? >> didn't swear. >> didn't say anything? >> did not. >> didn't pull out a gun? >> did not pull out a gun. >> turned around and ran away. >> once i reached around in my truck is when he ran away. >> at that point you're reaching into your truck and he sees you do this? >> yes. >> he runs away? >> yes, he did. >> now we see him running back. you said he ran around the dog log? >> he did, correct. >> and at that point we see him running back down the dog leg. is that right? >> yes. >> he got to the blue mailbox and headed back toward you? >> i believe he was past the blue mailbox. >> so he got past the blue

mailbox? >> yeah. he was completely out of sight. >> all right. but now in the video you can see he's turned around and is heading back toward you? >> that's correct. >> and at this point he's pinned between the two pickup trucks? >> he is between two pickup trucks, yes, ma'am. >> all right. so we're going to freeze frame it right here. you've raised your shotgun at him at this point? ? at that point i did, yes, ma'am. >> and he's 30 to 40 yards away from you? >> that's what i was put -- that's what i said in the statement and wrote, i believe. thinking back on it now, i think it was 30 to 40 feet. it was closer to 30, 40 yards, that's 120 feet. he was not that far away from me.

>> all right. and at this point right here, hasn't said anything to you? >> no, he has not said anything, no, ma'am. >> hasn't verbally threatened you? >> verbally, no. >> still running at his hands at his sides? >> directly toward me. >> hasn't pulled out a gun? >> haven't seen a weapon yet, no, ma'am. >> and hasn't shown you a weapon this entire time? >> he has not. >> hasn't said a word the entire time? >> not one time. >> all he's done is run away from you? >> past me, yes, ma'am. >> and you pulled out a shotgun and pointed it at him? ? running directly toward me, and this is now the second time on the road coming directly at him watching now he interacted with the pickup truck, in that general location when i pulled up the first time, attacking the truck. and then seeing him interact with the vehicle on berford, saying the police are coming and turning and running on top of

seeing pointing and the whole episode, i was under the impression that i was at this point, this guy could be a threat, and he is coming directly to me. so i pointed the shotgun to him to deter him from coming directly to me which was effective at that point. >> so you're under the impression, is that right? you were under the impression because of all those things that you just mentioned that what? that he could be a threat to you? >> yes. >> now, let's take a look at

state's exhibit 129. all right. your father is in the pickup truck. correct? >> yes, ma'am. >> and he has his 357 magnum. >> he has it, yes. >> this is when you've given him the phone and said call 9-1-1? >> seconds before this is when i gave him -- when i dialled nun after i realized that i was misunderstood that he has not called 9-1-1 or had not called 9-1-1 and realized the error and

called him and gave my dad the phone once i saw mr. arbery come back at me this third time, gave it to him once he was coming around the dog leg, yes, ma'am. >> and your father had 30 years of law enforcement. is that correct? >> i don't believe so. >> so and he knows how to take care of himself, doesn't he? >> he knows how. >> oh. i know. and he's got a handgun with him? >> yes. >> and he's on higher ground, isn't he? >> he -- yes, yeah. i would say higher ground. vulnerable. >> and you never once anywhere in your police statement said you were ever worried about your father or him being attacked at all? never said that once in any of your statements? >> in the statements, i guess not, no, ma'am. >> so at this point you and your dad are both yelling at mr. arbery to stop? >> i am yelling. i'm sure my dad is, but i was not paying attention to what my father was saying.

>> all right. so at this point in time, you are right next to your pickup truck in the doorway. right? >> i'm right in the crux of it, yes, ma'am. >> all right. and mr. arbery is moving this way, and then he's moving that way. correct? >> yes. correct. >> you have now moved yourself out of that part of the doorway into the roadway. is that right? >> yes. because when -- when i drew down on him, and then he -- because he was coming directly toward me, focussed in on me, and i drew down on him, he immediately broke his direction and went to the right. when he went to the right, i came to the left. to gain distance. i was thinking that what i would

do, or anybody else, would go across the yard, would run across the yard. well, as i was going across, i saw that he turned and started directly toward me on the road again. and then turned the third time and then went back to the side of the vehicle. >> so you're -- >> i was trying to gain distance. >> gain distance. so you're expecting that he should take action to get away from you because you're pointing a shotgun at him? >> i was not wanting him to come to charge me, to attack me, which i was assuming was happening, yes. that's exactly what i was doing. >> so him running down this road being pursued by mr. bryan's truck is him attacking you? >> the last time i saw mr. bryan's truck was when i was at a stop just before where i'm at now, and he was attacking -- was all over that truck.

and they left. and i was -- i never saw that truck turn around and then mr. arbery is coming back to me. stop directly to me. he wasn't going to the left or the right. he was coming straight to me that first time. i was thinking he's going to try to get in this truck or he's going to try to attack me or my dad or who knows what? he was acting weird. he was acting funny when i was trying to talk to him prior. so i'm on alert. he turns, runs off, comes back. i don't -- i'm sure i saw mr. bryan's truck in this instance, but i was focussed on what i perceived as a threat. so i don't even remember the question. >> the question is you didn't know what he was doing except continuing to run away from mr. bryan's truck? >> no. i was -- he was coming toward me. >> but you just said who knows what? you didn't know what this guy was going to do?

>> i did not. >> and all he had done so far was run away from me? >> past me, and i let him run away, yes. >> but this time you're not letting him run away. you're pointing a shotgun at time. >> i'm not letting him run to me, directly to me. >> and he doesn't. >> he runs around there. right? >> he did. >> uh-huh. and comes around that corner, and you have closed the distance yourself on him, haven't you? >> i have gone to the front of my truck. i did not go to the passenger's side of my truck at that time. i was trying to keep an eye on him to make sure that he didn't try to get in my truck or try to get to my dad or who knows going to the passenger side or what. i was trying to keep an eye on him, and i would think that he's avoiding me once i aim the shotgun at him.

he sees me from the truck that he will not come back around, which i was thinking more than likely was going to happen, and he would continue to go. >> so at this point in time, you could have stepped closer to your pickup truck and kept that pickup truck between you and him. correct? >> he said -- can you say that again? >> sure thing. you have moved out in the road. you've aimed this shotgun at mr. arbery? >> i did. >> mr. arbery goes to the passenger's side of the truck? >> yes. >> your dad is still yelling at him because we can hear him go stop, god damnit stop. right? >> yes. >> you could have easily stepped back to your pickup truck and watched him keep going. right? >> i could have, yes, but i was -- i still didn't know what he would or could have done right there where i couldn't see him. and to get closer to the pickup and dad and if he's going to try to get to the truck, i would be right there. i was thinking he was a threat

and might go after myself, my father, or the truck. i wanted to be right there to deter him or to be able to handle it if i needed to. >> so you also could have stepped around the back of the truck and followed him in the path that way. is that right? >> yes, but then he would have had an open unrestricted run around the truck and into my open door into my pickup truck, and -- >> so you're telling this jury that a man who has spent five minutes running away from you, you're now thinking is somehow going to want to continue to engage with you someone with a shotgun, and your father, a man who has just said stop or i'll blow your fucking head off by trying to get in your truck? >> that's what it shows, yes,

ma'am. >> he comes around the front of the truck, and you are right there with that shotgun. correct? >> i was coming around, and then as soon as i was at the front corner panel, he turned and yes, we were -- we were on each other. >> is that your head right here? >> that is my head. >> you heard the medical examiner testify that mr. arbery's hand was between him and the shotgun and he was shot here into his torso. correct? >> that's the theory, yes, ma'am. >> that was the medical examiner giving his opinion. correct? >> his opinion. i'm sorry. correct. >> okay. and you saw the digital evidence that backed that up with the

arterial spurt before from the first two shots? >> yes. >> you testified that mr. arbery grabbed your shotgun? >> that's correct. >> all right. do you remember the detective specifically asking you if he grabbed your shotgun? >> i do. >> okay. and you then said -- want to take a look at it? >> on page 30 -- page 30 -- >> let me find it for you. page 44. >> --

>> do you remember describing the first interaction you had with him when he came around the corner? >> yes. >> you told the detective that he came up, meaning mr. arbery, and that i think that's when he hit me or started striking. he was on me. he had my shirt or something to that point. i had the gun. i was too close to draw down on him. i did like that, you know, and he's still fighting and i was just like this, and at that time you're showing the detective that you had the gun like this. correct? >> yes. >> and the detective specifically asked you do you remember if he grabbed the shotgun at all. and your response was, i want to say he did, but honestly, i cannot remember. i mean, we were, me and him were face to face the entire time. do you remember saying that? >> yes. and i was trying to think at that exact moment, trying to give him as much detail as possible under the stress of all this going on.

it was obvious that he had the gun from what i was saying in here. he had the weapon the way i was describing it. why i said he did not have the gun at that second, i don't know why. but -- but yeah, i mean i -- that's what i said. i want to say he did, but i honestly cannot remember. >> so you didn't shoot him because he grabbed the barrel of your shotgun. you shot him because he came around the corner and you were right there, and you just pulled that trigger immediately? >> no. i was struck. and he was -- we were face to face and being struck, and that's when i shot. so he came up, i think is when we were hit. he started striking. he was on me. he had his shirt or you know something to that point. i had the gun. i was too close to draw on him.

>> so you're saying that all of that took place. he's got your shirt. he's striking you. you've got the gun up in this thing, and you can't draw down on him, and it's a struggle and he's on you and you're going back and forth in front of the truck? is that what you're saying? >> yes. >> okay. is that what happened? >> it's on the video, yes, ma'am. >> and he was shot right here in the torso, and it came up right back here. so your gun was parallel to the ground? yes? >> yeah. you grab a shotgun and snatch it away, it will straighten the shotgun out. >> which one was it? was it like this or that?

>> it was obviously like that in the video. it happened so fast, and trying to recall and everything, i obviously missed every minute detail. >> all right. so let's talk about some of the things that you chose not to do with this matter. okay? you could have made sure that you and your dad called the police from your house before you ever got in the pickup truck. correct? >> i could have, but i was under the impression he has called the police when we left there. >> and you could have just continued to drive behind mr. arbery and not even speak to him or confront him at all. isn't that true? >> i could have, yes. >> all right.

and you could have just let him run away when he took off in front of mr. bryan's house from the video we saw. you could have gone okay, he's running. let him go or just drive behind him really slowly. right? >> could have, and did after i let -- after i realized that he was not going to talk to me and turned around and ran away. >> and you could have stayed in your truck over an holmes drive. right? >> could have, yes. >> and you could have stayed in your truck until he ran by and then driven away to go ahead and follow him. right? >> i could have, yes. >> okay.

>> not once during your statement to the police did you say that you and your father were trying to arrest mr. arbery, did you? >> in the statement? >> yeah. to the police. >> no yarks ma'am. >> you never told the police that you said to mr. arbery, you're under arrest. >> i did not. >> okay. you never did tell mr. arbery, you're under the arrest for the blank blank blank? >> i didn't have time. i was still trying to get him to stop.

>> let's talk a bit about your attitudes towards sort of vigilanteism. okay? >> okay. >> you've posted several times on facebook some things and we talked about one of them in response to where you're playing with fire on this side of the neighborhood. you remember posting that? >> yes. >> and in response to another post about crime on the website, you responded arm up. correct? >> is that the balstaris one?

>> july 1st, 2019, a post by lindy koefer. your first response was arm up. do you remember that? would you like to see it? >> yes, please, i would. >> i think your attorneys want to see it. >> probably so.

>> does that refresh your recollection, does it say arm up? >> yes, ma'am, it does. >> back in january of 2019, do you recall having a facebook conversation with a lacy alison cox? >> i do. >> all right. and at that point, do you remember telling her about how she felt that you need to make examples out of somebody if they steal stuff, and you said that's right, hope you all catch the

vermin? >> that's correct. >> in addition she was kind of worry bd about her father, because she said we've had a lot of trouble -- >> objection. hear say, your honor. >> i guess this -- a post connected with the witness? it's not in court? >> i'll ask a better question. >> thank you. >> do you remember -- >> i'm not sure what the context was to the extent made the hear say. >> okay. i will rephrase. do you remember telling her that your old man is the same as her old man which is slap crazy, old as dirt, and doesn't care about going to jail? do you remember that? >> i don't think i wrote that. >> okay.

>> take a look at the top of the second and see if it refreshes your recollection. >> top of the second? >> uh-huh. >> does that refresh your recollection about what you agreed with miss cox about? >> yes, i agreed and responded. >> she said we've had a lot of trouble with thieves. it just worries me because my daddy is slap old crazy, lol, he's old as dirt and doesn't

care about jail. you responded and said that's -- >> the next line is you said hell, i'm getting that way. >> i did say that. >> she said have to make an example out of somebody. you said that's right, hope you all catch the vermin. correct? >> i did. >> so your attorney has repeatedly stated a recurring theme here for you that when seconds count, the police are minutes away. you heard him say that numerous times? >> i've heard him say that. >> is that your statement? >> it's not. >> why is your attorney saying that? >> i guess that's what he believes. >> that's not what you believe? >> i can agree with that, but i don't think i've said that.

>> i'll go ahead and pass the defendant back. >> briefly. >> you've cross examined a bit about why you were making certain decisions to approach or not, mr. arbery. >> yes, sir. >> or what you thought about when he was approaching you. >> that's correct. >> and you've been shown your transcript, the statement you

had with the officer. >> yes, sir. >> take a look at page one -- page 7, line 1. >> seven, line one. >> you recall what you said to the officer there? >> objection. >> inappropriate question. this is not a system of prior inconsistent statement at this time? >> it's a rehabilitation of the witness after being examined. this is a prior statement by him that is consistent with his testimony and to rehabilitate him after cross-examination. >> permissible. >> he's been questioned extensively, your honor, about what -- >> you're rehabilitating him? >> what do you say, page 7, line 1? >> just line 1? >> so we can make sure --

>> the full statement before the -- >> the first full sentence there. >> okay. >> are you going to read it out loud or if he remembers the statement. >> just read it, what he said to the officer. >> objection at that point. improper -- >> do you recall what you said to the officer? >> i do. >> don't read it. what did you say to the officer? >> i told -- it was closing down, that i -- >> wait. what date were you speaking about when you were talking to the officer? >> i was speaking of february 11th when i saw him the first time that i encountered him. >> and did you tell the officer or give the officer an impression of what you thought about mr. arbery at that time? >> yes. i said that when i stepped out that he was not -- wasn't clearly there and reached into his pocket. >> what did you mean by clearly

not -- he, mr. arbery clearly was not there? >> the way he was interacting with me and being reacted to just being caught creeping or lurking in the shadows to reach into a pocket and then just stay i would say bold or having a brazen moment where you do that and then just go into the house, continue to do what you were doing. it was not -- it was off. it just wasn't -- >> did you share this with the officer a couple hours after? >> i did. i did, yes, sir. >> if you'll go to page 9, line 3. before you do that, were at any point in time, did you try to describe mr. arbery's behavior as you were interpreting it on berford road. >> to? >> to the officer? >> yes. >> okay, and do you recall how you described his behavior? >> yes. >> okay. how did you describe it? >> funny, acting funny.

clearly not there. >> let me stop you. what did you mean by acting funny? >> the way that he -- his facial expressions when i first pulled up. the anger, and then not speaking. not talking at all. it wasn't like -- it wasn't -- trying to ignore me. it was just he -- the way that he was expressing himself. he just wasn't talking. he was in an angry state. >> what was your interpretation? >> relevance, speculation and not relevant as to his interpretation. >> i think it is relevant. it's not speculating. it's his interpretation. okay. did you speak to -- did you ever indicate to the officer that you felt something was just not right with mr. arbery? >> i did.

>> okay. do you recall ever indicating to the officer that you were just wanting to watch him and hope that he would continue to run past you? >> yes. i did. >> okay. you were -- one second.

>> thank you, sir. you may step down. >> why don't you leave those there? thank you. why don't you step down. whoever left their transcripts up there, go ahead and grab them. trying to figure out where we are. a little early to break for lunch. >> we have a brief witness. just give me a minute.

>> defense calls lindy cofer. >> a good thursday morning to you. craig melvin here from msnbc

world head quarters in new york city. we have been watching the dramatic cross examination of one of the man accused of murdering ahmaud arbery. you probably heard some offensive language as we listened to that trial. we apologize for that. travis mcmichael was on the stand there. mcmichael on the witness stand for nearly two hours this morning. the prosecution digging into exactly what mcmichaels said and did in the moments leading up to that deadly shooting and the defense before that or during that, i should say, the defense at one point asked for a juror to be excused saying it appeared juror number 12 was falling asleep. the jung said no for now. you can see mcmichael back there at the defense table. ron allen outside that courthouse in brunswick, georgia where a rally has gotten underway. also joining me david henderson, a civil rights attorney, former prosecutor, and here in studio with me legal analyst danny

cevalos. ron, i'll start with you on the ground. the testimony we heard, incredibly vivid description of the moment ahmaud arbery was killed. but also some very interesting exchanges there on direct and cross examination. >> the prosecutor was walking mcmichael through the confrontation step by step, trying to say that he, in fact, was the aggressor. the defense is maintaining that travis mcmichael fired his shotgun three times in self-defense, and the prosecutor was trying to tear away at that story. here's an exchange between the prosecutor and mcmichael about the moment that he came together with ahmaud arbery. take a listen. >> so you got out of your truck and yelled at him, stop. >> as he's getting close to me, yes, i was yelling at him at that point to stop, yes, ma'am. >> he turned around to run back? >> he did. >> didn't threaten you in any way? >> no. >> didn't verbally threaten you?

>> not verbally, no. >> didn't swear at me you? >> didn't swear. >> didn't say anything? >> no. >> once he got from me to you, directly to me, once i was -- reached into my truck is when he turned and ran away, yes, ma'am. >> and that's the prosecution's point, that arbery was an innocent man. that he wasn't armed. that he was doing nothing wrong that day when the defendants chased him down. that's what the prosecution has been trying to get across. they insist that the defendants who were white made all the wrong and worst assumptions about arbery that day who, of course, was black. what he was doing in the neighborhood, and they say the prosecution, that's why this whole thing happened, that the defendants assumed the worst about arbery when he was doing nothing wrong. the cross examination ended and we're onto another witness. we believe it's going to be a witness who a resident of the neighborhood where all of this

happened. the defense is trying to point -- portray this neighborhood as a place on edge, where there was a lot of crime and there were a lot of robberies, and where the defendants had reason to suspect that arbery may have been involved in all of that. which is why the defendants say that they went after him that day, because they were trying to apprehend someone they thought was suspicious, to travis mcmichael said he had encountered 12 days before in the neighborhood. so that's the basics of the case. the prosecution, though, went after mcmichael very aggressively. she was trying to poke and find inconsistencies in the things he said to police and what he has said on the witness stand. the prosecution has argued the defendants have essentially concocted this defense, that they were trying to make a citizen's arrest of arbery. and the prosecutor was saying that -- trying to point out to the jury that mcmichael never said that to the police at the scene of the crime when he was interviewed about that. the prosecutors are trying to

convince the jury the defense came up with the story about citizen's arrest and self-defense after they were arrested. remember, they were arrested several months after this happened. and they made these statements before that thinking, perhaps, that they were not going to be charged with a crime. so that's what the prosecution is trying to narrow in on. the inconsistenies in mcmichael's story, and again, the fact that arbery never made a threat. never had a weapon. never yelled at mcmichael. that's the basis of the case. and that's what we've been listening to hear. >> i'm going to come back to you in a moment to find out about the activity behind you, but let's dig into what happened at the courtroom. danny, i'll start with you. we both noted while we were listening to the testimony, at one point the prosecutor seemed to get the witness to admit that he was a vigilante. >> right. that was a really great technique in cross examination. it's called the table of

contents. where you move to another topic and sort of announce, next i'm going to ask you about your views on vvigilanteism. the witness response, well, okay. now you've got the jury saying okay, he has views on this. a lot of very good techniques there. we also saw this witness commit one of the other cardinal sins which is here's a rule of thumb. if you're a witness, craig, and the prosecutor is asking you did you ever say, and it's something that's damaging to your case, if you try to deny it, i promise you the next thing they do, they're going to grab a piece of paper, march it over to you and say sir, this is a printout of your text message, your email, whatever. does this refresh your recollection as to whether or not you said it? the witness said yes, i did say that horribly damaging thing i denied a moment ago. >> linda had the receipts there. david, your take on what we saw

and heard there on cross examination specifically, and then the redirect? >> craig, i think in order to figure out what's going on in cross examination, you've got to keep your eye on the ball. he's not on the stand because he wants to be. he's on the stand because he has to be. in order to claim self-defense, he has to acknowledge what he did, and the state gets to poke holes in what he's saying. in a perfect world, i would say this cross examination effective. he says things like, for example, ahmad wasn't talking to me. well, yeah, he was being chased down and in fear for his life because you were threatening him with a shotgun. of course he wasn't holding a conversation with you. at the end of the day, you have to remember if the law controlled the outcome of court cases, to kill a mocking bird would have had a different ending. these lawyers are not expecting to win this case based on the law. they're expecting to poke holes in the case that simply go to words jury nullification.

in glenn county, they just need one juror who thinks he doesn't seem like a murder sitting in the courtroom today. it's very difficult to interpret exactly how effective they've been along those lines, but that's what this case is going to turn on. >> you mentioned the juror there, david. they've also -- the defense also raising that question about what it characterized as a sleeping juror. juror number 12. they asked for that juror to be excused. the state says no for now. what was the lawyer trying to do there? >> what it means for the trial, craig, turns on what they know about that juror based on jury selection. normally the state wants to knock off jurors for falling asleep in the jury box. the fact that the defense wants to knock her off means that either they saw her as a leader based on what she said during jury selection or they think she's someone who simply is not going to buy what they're trying to sell. that's what we can determine. and the judge is rightly saying

look, at the pace of these trials, sometimes jurors are going to fall asleep, especially depending on how lawyers handle themselves. right now there's no legal reason she can't continue. >> danny, there is an exchange there that got my attention. i've got it written down here. the prosecutor at one point asking did ahmaud arbery reach into his pockets. travis mcmichael says no. yell, threaten you, gun, knife, all no. he just ran? yeah. on what planet can that be considered self-defense? >> it makes it really difficult. and it makes you wonder why does the defense call their client, and the answer may be look, they need something. they need somebody to go up there and at least say to the jury, i believed i was in fear for my life. but the facts in this case are just not apparently on the side of the defendant. and you see the prosecutor not only cross examining him in a rapid fire fashion, about all

the nonthreat or the threatening things that arbery did not do, but also all the opportunities they had to cut off their chase, and in addition, these defendants gave a lot of statements. so that's fertile ground for the prosecutor to bash over the defendant's head if he says anything inconsistent now with what he told police earlier. so prosecutors here have a lot of tools, and they're using all of them. >> danny cevalos, david henderson, ron allen, a big thanks to you. it appears as if in the courtroom in brunswick -- it looks like they're about to take a break, but we'll keep our ears in that courtroom in brunswick, georgia. >> we'll potentially hours away from a vote on build back better. what speaker pelosi said about the timing of that a few moments ago. ago.

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news conference. >> right now, we're awaiting the -- just a few more, like one more committee and a piece of another committee from a senate, for the scrub. in case you're interested in the timing of this. we expect by this afternoon to have information we need from the ways and means committee. as soon as we get the scrub information, we can proceed with their manager's amendment to proceed to a vote on the new rule with the manager's amendment, reflecting the scrubs not any policy changes, but technicalities about jurisdictions, et cetera. and then we will vote on the rule and on the bill. those votes will hopefully take place later this afternoon. >> let's go to our capitol hill correspondent, leigh ann caldwell.

we've heard that a lot. the house is going to vote on the bill, then it never happens. any reason to believe it's different this time? >> we sure have heard that a lot, craig. and it seems like it is going to be different this time. when i'm talking to my sources and lawmakers up here, the house democrats seem much more confident that the vote will take place and that it will pass. like speaker pelosi said, they're waiting on a few last-minute technical things, including the cost analysis from the nonpartisan congressional budget office, because of the specific rules this legislation is passing through, in order for a simple majority threshold in the senate. they're waiting for confirmation from the senate that everything in this first take is kosher. so, you know, things feel a lot different than they did a couple of weeks up here, where there was still a lot of tension, a lot of last-minute negotiation. now it seems like they're just waiting for this cost analyst, in order for the house moderates, the five moderates to

sign on. so things are actually feeling pretty mystic up here, that it will get a vote. you know, tonight, that is extremely optimistic. i don't know if it will happen tonight, but perhaps tomorrow, and the thanksgiving holiday is really pushing them. people want to go home, and they are honestly, physically and emotionally and mentally tired of continuing to haggle over this legislation. and they want to be done, craig. >> all right. leigh ann caldwell on the hill with an update on the build back better bill. leigh ann, thank you. the other big trial we're watching, of course, the homicide trial of kyle rittenhouse in kenosha, wisconsin. we're going to check in on what we know from the jury's deliberations there, right after this. jury's deliberations there, right after this - [announcer] meet the ninja foodi xl pro grill & griddle with ninjas 500-degree griddle grate for steakhouse style searing. now with a flat top barbecue griddle, you can cook foods other grills can't. it even air fries. ninja foodi, be proud of what you make. (kids playing) pnc bank believes that if your phone

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right now the jury in the kyle rittenhouse trial has started deliberating for a third day. we did get some insbigt how the process is going. video footage was requested as to how he fired his weapon, although that is at the center of a motion for mistrial. gabe gutierrez is there for us outside the courthouse in kenosha, wisconsin. have we heard any questions from the jury so far today. >> reporter: craig, good morning. no questions so far today. they've been deliberating for just under two hours now.

the judge is inside the courthouse, but he has a full schedule. so he's continuing with other cases at this point, while we wait to see if the jury has anymore questions. but yesterday, they had three questions. and as you mentioned, one of them involved watching video from that drone that we saw earlier in the trial. and there's a lot of questions surrounding that video, because, craig, as we reported yesterday, the defense is asking for a mistrial based on that drone video, because the defense is arguing that the prosecution did not hand over that higher resolution copy of that specific drone video until two days before closing arguments. the defense says that is unfair. that there was prosecutorial misconduct. the prosecution said there was no ill intent there. they were trying to make the case that they didn't know there was a lower quality version that was handed over to the defense when the file was transferred. and as you mentioned, craig, the judge has not ruled on that. but what we can surmise, i guess, from what the jury has

asked for so far, is, you know, they were asking, do they view these videos in public, in the courtroom, or behind closed doors? as we thought, craig, it appears that video evidence in this case is playing a critical role in jury deliberations. again, no questions so far today, from the jury. but they're entering another hour of deliberations. this is day three of jury deliberations at this point, craig. >> okay. gabe gutierrez there with an update as we wait for a verdict in kenosha. gabe, thank you so much. we'll be checking in with you throughout the afternoon. we are also keeping a very close eye on the case of an oklahoma man who is set to be put to death just over five hours from now, unless the governor steps in. for more than 20 years, julius jones has maintained he is innocent of murder. he claims the actual shooter, an acquaintance, set him up. the state's patrol board has twice recommended that

oklahoma's governor kevin stick commute jones' sentence to life in prison. if the governor does not step in, jones' execution set for 5:00 p.m. eastern today. that's going to do it for me on what has been a very busy thursday today. one quick note before we go, if you can't ever watch the show, you can get audio from msnbc live 24/7 on the streaming audio platform tune in. you can listen anywhere, anytime, on any device, by the way. go to tunein.com/2021 to listen commercial free with tunein premium. "andrea mitchell reports" starts next. and good day, everyone. this is "andrea mitchell reports." in washington, as congress faces critical deadlines on the president's social spending proposals. the white house trying to repair

relations with its closest neighbors today, in a summit with canada and mexico. and the nation is dealing with historic racial cross currents in two murder trials in the national spotlight. this morning in brunswick, georgia, prosecutors continue cross-examining travis mcmichael, where they completed that cross-examination. the man who fired the gunshot that killed ahmaud arbery. mcmichael claiming that he shot arbery in self-defense, while trying to make a citizen's arrest. prosecutors say that there was no evidence the unarmed arbery had committed any crime while he was out for a jog. meanwhile in kenosha, wisconsin, jurors in the kyle rittenhouse murder trial are in their third day of deliberations, after the judge allowed them to review videos yesterday, and the defense made a new request for a mistrial, claiming the prosecution had withheld a critical video from them until just before closing arguments. with the thanksgiving holiday just a week from today, the covid crisis is