it's thursday once again, the alarm is sounding for our democracy. is anyone listening, after defending one of their own for a video depicting violence against

democrats. plus, a tale of two trials. we've got the latest from two courtrooms ass nation awaits a verdict in the kyle rittenhouse trial, and. speaker pelosi wants -- as democrats face a number of growing challenges politically and legislatively. d legislative. good day, welcome to "meet the press" daily, i'm chuck todd, there are a number of stories in washington, the debate over the president's agenda, the struggle with inflation, the democratic party's messaging woes. you name it. we have said it before, and we'll continue to say it, the single biggest story in american politics has been and still is and will continue to be the damage being inflicted on our democracy, and the radicalizing of one of the major political parties. the house voted to censure

republican congressman paul gosar for his depiction of violence against democrats in an altered anime video. house republicans voted in support of congressman gosar. and mccarthy told reporters he might put gosar and marjorie taylor greene on committees if republicans take back the house, a signal from mccarthy that the gop may start condoning this behavior. remember, kevin mccarthy once thought what marjorie taylor greene did was out of bounds. his remarks on the house floor yesterday about gosar's actions, he reserved the bulk of condemnation not for the terrible things he has done multiple times but reserved his biggest condemnation for democrats. take a listen. >> for democrats, this vote isn't about a video. it's about control. that's the one and only thing democrats are interested in. not condemning violence. not protecting the institution. not decorum, or decency, just

control. the democrats want control and they don't care about the consequences. they're destroying this institution, silencing the minority, and therefore silencing the millions of americans. >> mccarthy trying to play the victim card there, this defense of gosar is a reminder of how twisted of a pretzel the republican leadership has done to themselves on the party as a whole, and how they have radically transformed themselves in apparent service to donald trump and trumpism and to own the libs. mccarthy's transformation is telling, think about this, back in 2016, he warned his republican colleagues behind closed doors that he thought trump was on putin's payroll. folks around mccarthy have tried to dismiss comments as some kind of attempt at humor. after the january 6th insurrection, mccarthy said that trump bore responsibility for the attack on the u.s. capitol. of course mccarthy backed trump

anyway in the impeachment probe, and like most of his republican colleagues, over time mccarthy has backed off and walked off and down played criticism of the former president, and what's left is not so much a leader of republicans, it's a vessel of trumpism. you can say the same thing about leadership in the republican party generally right now. it's all either in service of donald trump or in fear of him. it's not a healthy place for a political party to be. it's not a healthy place for mccarthy to be, and it's certainly not a healthy place for this democracy either. joining me now is garrett haake, punch bowl founder and ceo anna palmer, and michael steel. garrett, let me start with you. to me, watching kevin mccarthy over the last five years, you can see just how much he has had to capitulate to this growing fringe movement who clearly has more power over him than ever

before. >> well, chuck, it's clear that he's right where the majority of his party is. that's the reality here. mccarthy told us in that same press conference that he spoke with former president trump this morning, said he called him from the golf course. he talked about restoring those other members to their committees and he really bristled when i asked him why the only member to be punished in any way by the republican conference this year was liz cheney for speaking out against donald trump. i want to play for you some of what he said in response. >> the only republican member who's been in any way punished by the conference this year is liz cheney who lost -- >> did she lose a committee. >> she lost her role in the republican conference, i know you were there. >> that's an election. >> she didn't get punished by that, she lost an election. i'm sorry, people go up for election all the time. no basis there. >> why do republicans not feel compelled to hold any kind of members on which democrats have

been so upset about. >> really, let's talk about that, since you raised the issue. democrat have said so upset about, were they upset when maxine waters told people -- >> with all do respect, i'm asking about your members. >> all do respect, i get to answer it, in the manner in which i have the right to. so democrats are so upset by a chairwoman of a financial services, when she told people if you see anybody in the trump administration, if you see people that support trump, get in their faces, make them not wanted here. >> and chuck mccarthy went on to say democratic behavior, none of it addressing the substance of my question. politically it's a straightforward argument, if he backs down even 1 inch, he loses the far right and the moderate wing of the republican party, especially in the house is all but extinct right now, and maybe even further so after redistricting in the next election cycle. >> and anna palmer, here's what

kevin mccarthy has been getting in return for being so supportive of some of these members. just today mark meadows has floated donald trump as speaker of the house. and just today, mark meadows has said kevin mccarthy needs to get his house in order because 13 republicans voted with the democrats on the bipartisan infrastructure bill. so the people he's trying desperately to appease are sitting here taking pot shots at him left and right. i mean, how much more weak can he become here? >> yeah, i think trying to control what the former president and his allies are going to say about kevin mccarthy, in this way it almost seems like it's never going to be enough for them, and this is going to be a challenge he has. he really almost is tasting the speakership after the midterm election. everyone expects house republicans are going to be back in the majority, he tried to run once, and he did not succeed. this is his attempt to make sure that he has the support.

but to your point, also marjorie taylor greene has said she's withholding judgment on whether or not she's going to support him. he has tried very hard, you know, hard to bear hug the former president and his allies,ening that's also just a reflection to garrett's point to where the enthusiasm and house republican congress are. these are not outliers. five years ago, that was an outlier, right now, that is where the energy and the enthusiasm of the republican conference is. >> anna, does he have any real ally,ism like mccarthy is in the job right now because no one else wants it because no one wants to be minority leader. the last time he went to get it, he got rejected, and it certainly seems as if nobody fears him. i mean, obviously marjorie taylor greene is in such fear of kevin mccarthy that she's threatening him. who are his real allies? >> clearly he's got allies, and he has got his leadership team that he has helped install and work with. to your point, it's a smart one,

which is kevin mccarthy was no a true believer in the frame of donald trump and has had to really kind of change his positions on several things to become more in line with where his conference is. i think that has a lot to do with the fact that he wants to stay in power and much less of where his politics might actually lie. you know, there's all of a sudden a more moderate establishment wing of the party, you can see kevin mccarthy shift towards that. she's good at seeing the changing dynamics in the conference, and understanding representative of those members that are supporting paul gosar. you saw several members in the house when speaker pelosi red the censure aloud, backing him and continuing to support him. >> michael steele, what has happened here that we've gotten to the point where rank and file republicans actually feel comfortable embracing paul gosar. i mean, that's the -- i mean, that's the warped reality we're living in, i guess. >> every political party, every president and every political

party remakes the party in their image. donald trump is a particularly powerful figure. he reshapes the republican party in a particularly powerful way. kevin mccarthy is in the cat bird seat, headed into the midterms with the best numbers for republicans. i have been doing this almost as long as you have, chuck, and i have never seen polls this good for republicans. candidates matter, issues matter. there is a very good chance of big gains for republicans in the midterms next year, and if he leads the party to those gains, if he leads republicans to the majority in the house, he will be speaker of the house. and if it's a big enough majority, i think he'll be able to weed out these bad apples and set a much better tone for washington. >> that is extraordinarily optimistic. but michael steele, you have been watching him up close as long as any of us and in some ways had a better seat than any of us. when he lost the speakership the first time it reminds me, it likes he's made the same decision george wallace made when he didn't win his first

democratic primary for governor in alabama, to big jim full some, and if you don't know the story, i tell people go find the story. mccarthy is not going to get out again. >> winning majority is about keeping the frogs in the wheelbarrow, some of the frogs have gotten ugly, but you need them in the wheelbarrow. >> you have the quote that i have been quoting to others a whole bunch last week, and you said if public service is increasingly unappealing our public servants will be increasingly unappealing. what's this congress going to look like in 2023, michael? >> i hope better is all i can say. i mean, paul gosar did something dangerous and stupid. it is not the first time he has done something dangerous and stupid. he should have been referred to the ethics committee, which has the power to expel him from congress. i don't think this knee jerk vote from washington democrat was smart. i think it set a bad precedent,

and it's going to make it harder, not easier to restore civility and govern in a responsible way going forward. >> garrett, have you had heard any quiet -- any of that from some long time house democrats about, hey, did they go about this the right way in trying to punish gosar. >> i think they feel like they had to stick together, and they have the taste in their mouth of dealing with marjorie taylor greene, you can't take this out of context. january 6th, democrats don't believe they've got a partner working in good faith on the other side that would in any circumstance be willing to punish one of their members. they felt like they had to go it alone. that's the bottom line, the total break down of the possibility that the other side might look at any of these issues as seriously as they feel like they are. >> and anna, just trying to figure out how governing works. essentially what mark meadows and marjorie taylor greene are arguing about kevin mccarthy, it's time to run the republican party like the polit bureaus, which is everybody votes the

same, and if you don't, you're out. is that governable, i mean, is that a realistic way to go govern? i know the house kind of is more likely to work that way than the senate, but this seems to be a tough place to begin. >> michael certainly knows it's a lot easier to be against something when you're in the minority than when you actually have the majority and you have to govern. all of a sudden, the problems become much bigger, the responsibility becomes much bigger. i mean, the fact of the matter is when you're in the minority of the house, you're just going to be against basically everything the majority is for, but the thing that's pretty, i think, stunning about this bipartisan infrastructure bill vote is it had come from the senate, and they had immediately or even in a week or two later voted for t you probably would have seen 30 house republicans cross the line and support it, and so you just see that kind of how they were able to kind of manipulate this on the republican side to say that, you know, this was going to be a litmus test for them.

instead of wanting to, you know, be able to say, hey, i actually got roads and bridges back in my district. i'm old enough to know when that was a winning message for a lot of members of congress to get reelected again. >> and michael steele, i mean, if you had to -- you were there with john boehner and paul ryan, i mean, if you had to punish any republican that decided not to vote the way you wanted them to vote, how many republicans would you have had left in your conference? >> not many by the end. i mean, look, there's not a lot of good tools for leadership here. if you take someone off the a committee at this point, you make them a martyr to the right wing, help their fundraising, and chances are they weren't that interested in their committee work to start with. we have to be realistic about what processes we have in place, what works in instilling discipline in congress, and build on those tools. >> look, whether it's steve bannon and him laughing and live streaming being held in contempt

and being criminally indicted or marjorie taylor greene celebrating not having to do the work of a member of congress, it's an excellent point. if shame is gone, it's tough to have any tools as a member of leadership. anyway. garrett headache, anna palmer, michael steele, an up lifted lead, thank you all. as democrats try to make lemonade in this souring political environment, speaker pelosi says she hopes for a vote on the house version of the build back better this afternoon, everybody if they do finally vote, that bill is far from final. we'll talk to congresswoman . i'll speak with a former ambassador about what the u.s. needs to do right now. you're watching ""meet the press" daily" ""meet the press" daily ♪ you can get it if you really want it, by jimmy cliff ♪ ♪

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welcome back, speaker pelosi says she is hopeful that the

house can vote as soon as this afternoon on the president's build back better agenda or the house version of it. we are still waiting on a cbo score for that legislation, which they say could be coming sometime this afternoon. the bill is written, well, obviously see some changes as it makes its way through the senate. democrats say they are moving forward or trying. joining me is a member of the house democratic leadership, michigan congresswoman debbie dingell. it's good to see you. >> chuck, good to see you. >> i want to actually start with the agenda and get to our toxic politics because i know you have a lot to say on the toxic politics too. but on this agenda, we are now, the house democrats are going to have to vote on a bill that is going to change in the senate which is something three months ago, whether you were a moderate in the house or a progressive in the house, that was one thing everybody was united on, don't put yourself in that position, we saw what happened in 2009 when that happened, and yet here we are. how nervous are you that you're voting on a bill that will not be the bill that ends up in law? >> well, first of all, it's not

the bill that it was three months ago and it is good to see you, by the way, and i want to get right into it. but it's not bill, the 3.5 billion or the 6 trillion that we were talking about months ago. it's already been narrowed down. we know most of the parameters that are in it. it even, as you talk about what has been added back in, i think people are much more realistic about what they are voting on, what might not make it in the senate, but there aren't as many difficult subjects or toxic subjects to be perfectly frank, to some members that could have been included. and progressives understand that sometimes you don't get everything that you want, but you keep making progress by taking the wins and starting again the next day! you know, when you look at the delay that linking these bills together did cause, and then eventually they got delinked,

look, i know the answer is going to be, look, the sausage making was ugly. ultimately judge this by when they're enacted and all of that. but as you look at this, you have been around this town a long time, congresswoman, was this four month agita worth it. >> well, i think there's been a lot of pain on many sides. i'm not sure if we would have gotten the infrastructure bill done last summer without some connecting to it. there were people that still did not vote for the infrastructure bill because they really know the importance of what's in the build back better bill. i do believe that two senators shouldn't have such a disparate impact on what happens with legislation. i do believe there are 435 members of the house that represent different constituents, and have the right to have a say, to be part of the mark ups.

this is not been my favorite year in any way, shape or form for many reasons, and this is one of them, but i think people have had time for input on to listen, time for different perspectives and the time to move is now, and that those four months gave people the chance to be part of the process. >> what do you believe the action against paul gosar accomplished yesterday? >> making the house even more bitter, but i think you can't let somebody threaten to kill another colleague, even if chess, and not think that there are going to be consequences. i do not know how it has become so all right at all levels of community to make death threats, to threaten people, to threaten violence, this hate, it is not okay. we've got to step up and do something. and doing nothing simply wasn't an option. >> you know, i know you have a bunch of relationships on the other side of the aisle, i know

this. i know the quiet hand ringing and consternation going on over there. do some of these folks in conversation with you admit that it's this silence is starting to have a negative impact here. because it does look like that essentially one party is starting to condone this behavior. >> so, you know, i think it's complicated like everything in life is. i think there were. i've talked to republicans, i have many friendships, and one of my best friends was a republican who, by the way was a target of horrific death threats in the last couple of weeks. but i think that if it had just been a censure, we might have gotten 30 or 40 republicans, but some of the republicans felt the removal from committee was a step too far. i don't know what i think or don't think. i don't think that they should continue to serve on the same committee after someone's threatened to kill you, that is not right for the woman that the

threats were directed at. >> i'm curious, by the way, congresswoman, i have thought about this a lot, congresswoman ocasio-cortez could easily have gotten a restraining order and would have gotten a judge to put a restraining order on congressman gosar, then you would have had to remove him from the committee. >> i'll tell you, i have worked in business for 30 years, like you do, you worked for a corporation like i did. anybody who had made a death threat like that, that employee would have been immediately removed and the person that was threatened would not have to get a restraining order, the person that made the threat would be removed from the job. >> do we have to have it -- is it going to have to get worse before anybody decides to make this better? is it going to have to -- are we going to wait for physical violence. january 6th wasn't enough, apparently. i don't mean to say it in jest, but i know it has to get worse

before it gets better because clearly we're not at bottom yet. >> well, i keep thinking we've hit bottom, and we haven't. and what i am praying is it is not going to be actually the death of a colleague or what happened to gabby gifford, which made a solemn moment for the congress. people have short minds, short memories. you know, i think about it. i am just not somebody who can go out and worry about whether someone's going to shoot me or come up and attack me, although i'm always prepared for it these days because i don't know when someone is going to scream at me and you can't represent people without that happening. but i've watched fred upton these last two weeks, he can handle the death threats on himself, but the death threats at his wife, his family and his staff, he's not sleeping at night. and i think many members feel that way. and it's both sides of the aisle, this isn't okay.

i want americans to be outraged and say this is not okay. take our country back. that's what i want. i want all of us to stand up against this violence. >> yeah. well said. congresswoman debbie dingell, a congresswoman from michigan, thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. we have breaking news out of the state of ohio where governor kevin stitt has spared a death row inmate's life, hours before he was set to be executed. julius jones was sentenced to death for a murder from 1999. he has maintained his innocence, and his attorney says the details are flawed. several celebrities, including former oklahoma sooner quarterback baker mayfield as well as jones' family had appealed to the governor to intervene before his scheduled execution, which was set to happen less than four hours from now. stitt did not pardon jones, instead he commuted his sentence to life in prison without the possibility of parole. coming up, an update from the courtroom as the trial of the man accused of killing

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he has been face ago cross-examination by the prosecution, and after testifying he felt the situation was a life or death situation, mcmichael told the prosecution today that arbery never actually threatened him. >> you testified under oath to this jury i'm not going to chase or investigate somebody who's armed. right? >> correct. >> and yet you want this jury to believe now that he was a threat to you, okay, and that you perceived him as a threat, and continued to chase him down. >> i didn't know if he was a threat or not. he never reached in his pockets, and i wanted to see what was happening. i figured i could talk to him at this point, or, you know, getting up to him. >> but hadn't at this point he demonstrated not once, not twice, but three times he did not want to talk to you. >> where i'm at the stop, when i stopped the burglar. >> you pulled up to him once, he doesn't want to talk to you. he backs up, your dad is yelling cut him off. he runs back, he doesn'tment to

talk to you. he has demonstrated he does not want to talk to you, correct. >> yes. >> he's also demonstrated he's no threat. he doesn't pull out a gun. >> that's correct. >> catie beck is following this trial for us down in brunswick, georgia, and joined by msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. where are we right now in the cross-examination, how much longer do we expect mr. mcmichael to be on the stand. >> mr. mcmichael is off the stand but he's subject to recall, so he could be back on the stand at some point in the trial. we're simply not sure yet. the defense says they have several more witnesses to call, but of course this morning, that cross-examination was really probably the most explosive part of the trial thus far. just hearing prosecutors sort of back him into a corner, trying to get him to answer questions directly, yes or no, was he a threat, did he have a weapon. did he try to get away from you, did he speak to you. all the answers to those questions were no.

it took a long time to get to them. there were multiple encounters in the few minutes between mr. arbery, and mr. mcmichael where he was asking arbery questions, and arbery was not speaking, was trying to get away, and made no obvious indication that he had any type of weapon or was a threat. prosecutors drilling down on the fact that he had an opportunity to walk away at several points or even just trail behind arbery by car. at one point the prosecutor said did you have to get out of your vehicle, was it necessary that you did that, why couldn't you have just followed him from a distance called police, waited for them to show up. so these were answers they were trying to get to through their questions, and while it took some time to get there, i think mr. mcmichael faced some pretty tough questioning this morning, and as i said, he could be subject to recall. he's no longer on the stand, the defense calling other residents in the neighborhood, one witness who posted on facebook about security threats, but did not know the mcmichael's personally, so as far as strength of testimony, i think we have seen

the top of the mountain. >> and catie, do we think we'll see the other mcmichael take the stand? >> reporter: that is unknown at this point, and the third defendant in this case, who filmed the incident from his car, it's unknown whether either of them will take the stand. obviously that could be some pretty explosive testimony, too. travis mcmichael seems to be calm and in control during this questioning but also, you know, like i said, it was a lot of yes and no questions about the threat, you know, the conversations, any type of being armed in the situation, and it really seemed as though it's hard to make the case that there was an active sense of threat when this person wasn't speaking, wasn't showing they were armed and was trying to get away. >> yeah, that had a very traumatic moment there that we saw from the prosecution. catie beck, thank you, let's get some legal analysis here. it's always good to have joyce vance with us. joyce, i would like you to tackle both strategies here, but first, let's talk about the

decision to put mr. mcmichael up there yesterday. and then what i found to be an interesting tactic, which was they really wanted to establish the defense did that mr. mcmichael was a well trained in law enforcement techniques, which i thought was an interesting decision because then, look, i think it ended up opening up what we saw today, what do you make of the decision of putting him on the stand, number one, and how did you think the prosecution did today, number two? >> this reads like a real desperation tactic. you don't put a defendant like this on the witness stand unless what you're hoping is that you can convince one or two jurors to hold out so that the jury hangs instead of convicting. this strategy that they pursued of bolstering law enforcement credentials was designed to give a effect to the defense that we expect to hear them talk more

about in closing argument, that travis mcmichael and his father intended to effect a citizens arrest that, they had probable cause. that's why we heard that extensive conversation about whether he knew what probable cause was and how to go ahead and engage in that sort of citizens arrest in that now off the books georgia statute. so the prosecution is particularly effective on cross-examination on this point. she asks the one key question, you never said anything about making a citizens arrest to police when you talked with them after the killing, did you, and he's forced to concede that he didn't. she even asks if he told mr. arbery that he was under arrest. he concedes he didn't. closing arguments, chuck, it's not about these dramatic mat lock moments in the courtroom during cross-examination. it's really about putting together pieces of evidence that you can argue to the jury when you close. she has now set her up to have a

highly effective closing argument. >> and at this point, if you were the defense, would you put anybody else on the stand? would you put the other mcmichael on the stand? >> i think the interests of the mcmichaels and mr. bryan are pretty divergent at this point in time. the real question here is, as is so often in these cases where a father and son are codefendants, the father's interest is in trying to help his son, if that's the case here, then the calculus is whether mr. mcmichaels can do more help by taking the witness stand or staying off of it. >> and obviously this is a separate defense with mr. bryan, is there an up side of him testifying since he clearly is caught sort of between the two here. i don't think he wants to be lumped in with the mcmichaels, which is why he has his own defense team. what would your advice to them

be? >> it's always risky to put your defendant on the witness stand in a case like this and after having seen this rather lethal cross-examination by the prosecutor of travis mcmichael, it seems like it would be obviously risky for mr. bryan's team to put him on. the same strategic advice may apply here. they may be hoping they can find one or two jurors that will avoid voting to convict, and that will lead to a hung jury. >> is that about the only thing if you're on the prosecution side that you have to worry about, maybe there's one or two jurors that are empathetic of the situation? >> if you're on the prosecution's side in this case, you're worried about everything, right, i mean, that's just the nature of the beast. but the big risk here is a hung jury. this is a case where the evidence has come in an orderly fashion. it's come in as expected and the evidence is really very good, including this cross-examination. your risk here is much more that

of a hung jury than of an outright acquittal on all accounts. >> there's two trials we're all following, this one, i think what you're implying is a bit more orderly, a bit more clean, sort of a clean set of circumstances. >> you know, that's right. the witnesses have testified as expected which makes a big difference when you're a prosecutor. >> joyce vance, former u.s. attorney with the state of alabama. we'll be right back with more "meet the press daily." "meet the press daily.

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welcome back, a quick update from the white house, we are expecting to see president biden and the canadian prime minister justin trudeau together at the white house soon. andres lopez obrador is also at the white house today, and we expect to see him and president biden together later this afternoon. this is the first

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of state, tony blinken is on his first trip to the continent of africa, as america's top diplomat, the state department is urging all americans to leave ethiopia. >> we are greatly concerned about the escalating violence, the expansion of fighting throughout the country and what we see as a growing risk to the unity and to the integrity of the ethiopian state. and for that reason, it's my responsibility, our responsibility to first and foremost ensure the safety and security of american citizens, of embassy personnel, and to be cautious and to make sure that we are doing that. >> lincoln's warning comes as violence between ethiopia between troops and rebels and the northern region of border

has worsened. and as patricia haslack, former ambassador to ethiopia put it this is rwanda-esque. she joins me now. that's a tough picture you're painting. it sounds like what you're saying is that everything is crumbling right now in ethiopia. >> well, it's certainly not moving in the right direction. i think the reference i was making was with regard to the food and fa mine situation. the fact that humanitarian assistance has not been allowed in that region. they have estimated 400 to 500,000 people are starving and up to 5 million people could be -- could also be facing severe starvation, so that was the reason why i made that particular reference, and the current government is not

allowing -- is only allowing a trickle of humanitarian assistance in, and they have also blocked assistance from coming across the border from sudan. >> is there any emissary that can have any sort of rational conversation with the current ethiopian government that could open the door to aid coming in? >> i don't think there's one particular individual, but i do think that it was very important that secretary blinken has gone to the region. there is also u.s. special envoy, ambassador jeff feldman, the european union, u.k., others have envoys and the african union has an envoy. former nigerian president. i think it's going to require concerted efforts on the part of my partners and many players as well as the u.n. security council which so far has been unable to reach agreement on

moving forward on things such as an arms embargo, except because of the reluctance on the part of china and russia to take part in it. >> well, you sort of are short circuiting what was going to be my next question because i've short-circuiting what was going to be my next question. this will be a situation where we may need u.n. peacekeeping troops, not just u.s. troops but some form of peacekeeping troops to assist at least in humanitarian aid. are china and russia going to tie the hands of the u.n. completely? >> it appears to be that right now, but in fact i think if they were to sit back and think about the potential consequences of not taking action now, we are talking about potential, you know, breaking up of the country, maybe not yugoslavia, i don't like to make comparisons here, but the impact on the region is significant.

if you think -- we've just had a coup in sudan. their southern neighbor is somalia. >> not very stable. >> eritrea, south sudan. if you look at the water there, you have a good picture there of the gulf, what do we have, is yemen. so not a good neighborhood, all unsettled right now. if we add ethiopa's internal civil war to the mix, ethiopa is one of the most stable countries in the region when i was there. they were on the path to prosperity, they have made good inroads on health, education. all of that has gone backwards. it's tragic and completely unnecessary. >> tony blinken is in kenya,

what's kenya going to do? >> i'm not privy to the meetings, but kenya is an important neighbor, an important player here. it's important that african neighbors and other countries are brought into the discussions. the former e.u. envoy has recommended a dayton accord type arrangement where a lot of different parties take concerted efforts, both regionally and internationally, to address this issue because it is definitely not headed in a good direction. i'm most concerned about potential starvation and also reports of tigrands being rounded up, and that's very concerning to me. >> what kind of coalition could the u.s. put together if the u.n. is not going to participate? what other entities would help with some form of humanitarian intervention? is it the g7? >> well, it's the g7, but i would also want to include some

of the gulf countries. the united arab emirates, qatar, others in the region, as well as turkey. they're an important trading partner with ethiopa. so i think it needs to be -- and it needs of course to include china and russia as well. this requires a concerted effort on the part of all parties, everyone needs to take it seriously. ethiopa is known for doing it by itself. they fought a civil war against the communist regime, they didn't get a lot of outside help for that. and they're known for doing it on their own. so they're going to have to be pressured, and it's going to take a lot of pressure from a lot of different sides. >> you know, the ethiopian diaspora in this country doesn't seem to be happy with what the u.s. is doing. >> well -- >> you seem to be not surprised. >> no, i'm not surprised. and in fact there's been a lot

of hate messages and very unhelpful messages being put forth on social media and some of it is coming from the united states. i think the diaspora should be looking at trying to keep the country together and trying to find some solutions to this problem. the prime minister promised a national dialogue after the elections. they've now come and gone and he hasn't followed through with that promise. both sides seem determined to try to win territory on the ground. but i think in the end, it will be the ethiopians who will suffer from that. >> former ambassador patricia haslach, really appreciate you coming on and giving us all a bit of perspective and context to what's going on in ethiopa. thanks very much. we'll be right back with an update on the kyle rittenhouse trial after the break. after the. whether it's ensuring food arrives as fresh as when it departs... keeping crews connected as they help build

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wisconsin and day three of deliberations in the trial of kyle rittenhouse. the jury is deciding on five charges against rittenhouse including multiple homicide charges for shooting three men in kenosha during protests in august. shaquille brewster is covering the trial from kenosha. shaquille, what is the latest there? >> reporter: chuck, you mentioned jury deliberations continue through day three that we're on. we have not gotten any update about the jury. they are continuing their deliberations. we did see the judge take the stand or come to the bench earlier today for an unrelated matter. this was outside of the presence of the jury. he responded to a report that we got from the kenosha police department last night saying that a member of the media was suspected of following the jury van after court yesterday. the judge named a member from

msnbc, he said he's taking this extremely seriously. he went on to say that he is investigating this further. and we also know that he's banning members from msnbc, any msnbc personnel from the courthouse at this time. now, an nbc spokesperson released a statement, let's put that up on the screen right now. it says, last night a freelancer received a traffic citation. while the traffic violation took place near the jury van, the freelancer never contacted or intended to contact the jurors during deliberations, and never photographed or intended to photograph them. we regret the incident and will fully cooperate with authorities on any investigation. again, chuck, all of this happening outside the presence of the jury. that is still in their deliberations. we're on day three of those deliberations. >> shaquille brewster in kenosha for us, shaq, thanks for that. thank you all for being with us this hour.

we'll be back tomorrow with more "meet the press daily." msnbc coverage continues with my friend katy tur right now. good to be with you, i'm katy tur. as we come on the air, high drama in courtrooms from brunswick, georgia to new york city. in new york city, two of the men convicted for killing malcolm x are expected to be exonerated. and in brunswick, georgia, the defense rolled the dice by putting the man who shot and killed ahmaud arbery on the stand. will it pay off? today it was the prosecution's turn to cross-examine travis mcmichael. the prosecutor took travis mcmichael step by step through the events leading up to, during, and after he shot arbery three times. remember,