that does it for us. "the reidout" with joy reid starts now. hi, joy. >> hi, ari. thank you very much. have a fabulous good evening. cheers, everyone. we're going to begin "the reidout" with our dark republican future. what we saw yesterday on censuring paul gosar was a useful demonstration of our two political parties. so they're kind of like parents. you have the democrats, the responsible parent telling you to be decent to people who are different from you and take care of the earth, and don't threaten to kill people, even as a joke. and who pass things like health care and roads and bridges and food for people who can't afford it. and then there is the other parent, the yolo parent, the republicans, who lets you stay up all night and eat snickers for dinner, and take off your mask in a covid cloud, and sorry, you can't have health

care if you get sick because yolo. an answer to everything. taking over america and meh, and history is mean. cancel it. to be clear, this is not a substantive party. take, for example, congressman matt gaetz, who is still under investigation for alleged sex trafficking of a teenaged girl, which he denies, and who has faced zero consequences from republican leadership for that embarrassing mess. here he is defending kyle rittenhouse. >> you know what? kyle rittenhouse would probably make a pretty good congressional intern. we may reach out to him and see if he would be interested in helping the country in additional ways. >> this is not a joke. kyle rittenhouse is on trial for murder. it's as serious for his family as it is for the families of his victims. it is not a joke. but it is to matt gaetz. and that, that is the kind of unserious thing that you only say if you're from a party that is so bereft of purpose that it

dominated by internet trolls obsessed with dangerous violent memes, like the dumbest member of congress lauren boebert, which is saying a lot with marjorie three names out there, who used her time on the floor yesterday to spread stupid, racist conspiracy theories about congresswoman ilhan omar. and if you're wondering what this bag of trump chee-tos retake power next year, just put that prospect in your mind for a minute. these people are the leaders of the republican party. that's the only reason we show them to you on this show. and they would be running this country. house minority leader kevin mccarthy, and let's just be clear, he would be working for them, he made it clear that if his party is back in power, he will put gosar and margie q. green back on their committees, maybe even better ones. mccarthy is just stating what we already know. that if this party comes back, it's going to be one giant revenge fantasy. >> what they have started cannot

be easily undone. their actions today and in the past have forever changed the way the house operates. and furthermore, it means that under the pelosi president, all the members that i have mentioned earlier will need the approval of a majority to keep those positions in the future. >> that's not a serious man. he is just not. so while the responsible party, the only party left that cares about democracy at this point, the yes sometimes irritating party that keeps the lights on and makes sure you go to the doctor, that part of the democrats, well, they spent today working to clear the messy final hurdles to pass the billion dollar billion bill which will get americans day care and home health care and cheap prescription drugs and help save the planet. a vote on that is expected later tonight. while they are doing that, like regular politics, your drunk mostly absentee nazi curious authoritarian republican president is waiting around for you to put their trump cult

authoritarianism cult embracing dangerous behinds back in power. >> if i must join alexander hamilton, the first person attempted to be censured by this house, so do it. it is done. >> censuring a member for a cartoon? you got to be kidding me. >> when there was violence against us, there was no condemnation. >> we're critiquing paul gosar's anime. next week we might be indicting the wile e. coyote. >> this is a dumb waste of the house's time. >> they all are cartoons. i'm joined by juanita tolliver and tim miller, writer at large for the bulwark. you know, tim, the only thing that is scarier than the fact that there are people walking around in the caucus who the minute they got back in the majority would take off their masks and maybe cough covid all over their colleagues and maybe get some people sick or dead, the only thing scarier than that

is the fact that i cannot imagine any other scenario than those people actually being the leadership of the party. the fact that our democracy rests in the hands of that crew is terrifying to me. i feel like our democracy rests on the eye of a stupid needle. i don't know. your thoughts. >> well, as the yolo parent in my household, i'm going to do my best to get inside their head for you, joy. look, i think that -- i think that it's clear right now that this is not a house caucus that has a plan if they take over next year to work with the democrats to advance legislation that will help -- that will lead to the betterment of the american people. this is a nihilist house caucus. kevin mccarthy is completely irresponsible and has completely thrown himself in with donald trump. the fact that he said after the january 6 insurrection that he knew better, he still has decided to do apology, he knows it's the only way to stay in

power. he is only the most reasonable one. jim jordan would be taking over as speaker of the house. and i think it's decently likely that he might take over even if kevin mccarthy stays. he might want to challenge. look, i think kevin mccarthy has told everybody what the republicans will do if they're in charge next time. they're going to try to turn the corner and they'll attack ilhan omar and try to censure her and try to block everything that the biden administration does. and then when 2024 comes around, i don't think there is any reason to believe that they'll try to do exactly what they did in 2020, an attempt to overturn a free and fair election. i think there is good reason to be concerned about that. >> and the -- that will be their agenda, juanita. they're going go after adam schiff. i could see them trying to expel any members of congress they don't like. they'll go after ilhan omar. they'll go after the squad. they'll spend all their time doing fake investigations trying to impeach joe biden for god

knows what, for having a son they don't like this. is what they're going to do. and not -- and only tit for tat. they impeaching bill clinton, they were hunting for a way to impeach him as payback for nixon. it's the payback party. there is not going to be legislation other than banning the 1619 project nationally and making it illegal to say anybody white ever in history was mean. i guess that will be their agenda? build a wall with our money? your thoughts. >> retribution is the only goal. it's the only motivator at this point. and frankly, speaker pelosi hit the nail on the head at her process peres conference today where she said republicans are a clear threat to our democracy. and hearing that, you would think that democrats would say okay, let's do everything we can to shore up our systems before they get in here and create more chaos and create more damage. you would think they would pass the john lewis voting rights advancement act, the freedom to vote act. women's health protection act

because we know what has been on the chopping block with republicans. they've been explicitly clear, and they're not exaggerating, joy. that's why i think democrats need to do everything they can to shore up our systems and our institutions. i also think this shows that the people will never be at the forefront of republicans' minds, right? like the bar for accountability, for delivering on agendas, for responsible behavior is so low with republicans that they've been able to run on these fluff feelings agendas without delivering anything, except for maybe tax cut, right? that's their priority. and that has always been their priority. and we can expect more of the same from them. anybody who voted for that return to normalcy, that stability that came with the 2020 elect with biden and democrats, all of that is gone the moment republicans take control of the house. and so people need to keep that in mind. and democrats should actually hold up a mirror to the gop and the voters to communicate that, because you're not trying to convince gop voters who we know facts don't do anything for them. but for independent voters, for women voters, for young voter,

this is something that democrats can absolutely leverage going into the midterms to maybe scare folks into voting when we know that the party in power typically is at a disadvantage. >> and that is the challenge that i have, tim, because i don't think democrats understand what they're facing. because the thing is -- i did this other thread is what kind of inspired us to do the thread this morning. i was trying to communicate that democrats are the government party. so if you're mad at the government, you're generally mad at democrats, because they're the ones who are actually governing. so when things about the government irritates you, that's the democrats. and they're also the party that's telling you, you know, you really shouldn't cut all those trees down. it's ruining the environment. you really should wear your mask when you're walking around because of covid. they're like the parents that you think of as mean because they're like you really should go to bed at the right time. republicans, what they do while it is fascism curious in many ways is also -- it's more

attractive in some ways. they're the permission party. they're saying go on, tell that racist joke, that's okay. don't worry about it. you don't have to wear your mask. i know 700,000 people died. that's not your problem. they're the party that is permitting you to do what you want. for a lot of voters, i look at this quinnipiac poll. biden is down to 36%. 53%. and yet everything is incoherent about it. 42% of people in this quinnipiac poll say that democrats, only 42% say democrats care about your needs and problems. 54% say no. but more people say republicans don't care. this whole thing about immigration border security, inflation, republicans are pretending that's what's taking biden down. only 8% said either of those things are the most important thing when unprompted. which party would you like to see control the house of representatives? after saying all these things that they think indicate republicans care less about them, more people would give them control. none of it makes any sense, tim. the only way i can explain it is

there was another number in here that said economic things, only 25% collectively said those are the problem. 75% said noneconomic-related things were the problem. it's feelsy things. something about this country doesn't feel right to people. and i think that is what republicans are using to win. is that people just feel off. my amazon stuff is late. i just don't like the vibe. i don't like wearing a mask. i feel annoyed. and when you feel annoyed, you want republicans. >> look, i think that that's pretty close to right. and i think there is a vibes element to this, if you will, joy. i do think that quinnipiac poll is a little bit of an outlier and below what biden's numbers are. still numbers in the mid-40s instead of the 30s is not going do it next year in the midterms. in addition to what you just said about democrats being the government party, they're particularly the government party right now. >> yes. >> and if you look at the virginia election a couple of weeks ago, right, if you're a voter in virginia, you're looking at washington. you say well, the biden's in white house. the democrats have the senate in the house.

my governor is a democrat. the legislature is a democrat. so if i'm annoyed about schools, if i'm annoyed about maxing, if i'm annoyed about all these different things, let's give somebody else a try. i think there were a number of things happening in that virginia election. i think we'd be wrong to dismiss that. that's why it's so hard for a party in power in the first year of a midterm any way. the stakes are so high this time, though. and i do think that my criticism of the democrats is that if there is a little bit of business as usual. and that if i were vuzing them, i'd say let's look at the things that people are concerned right now and see how we can signal to them, do everything we can to signal to them over the next year that we're trying to address them. now that's not going to change the vibes concern that you laid out. but i think it would help kind of mitigate this gap a little bit. >> here is the thing, juanita. if democrats could put the same passion that they put behind censuring paul gosar into telling their base that we're going to really fight for voting

reform. we're going to really fight for policing reform. we're going to really fight to protect you from those guys because we understand they want to put autocracy and fascism curious and take down this democratic experiment. we're going to put the same passion behind that we put behind rebuke. and that guy, i think they'd be in better shape. your thoughts? >> i think i should absolutely follow that same through-line, joy. i specifically want to point to the speech that cortez said. get back to that core of basic humanity as appealing language that we know is going the reach voters, not just on their thoughtful side that talks through legislation and technical things every day, but actually hits them with some ethos to make them feel something about what is happening in our country and empower them to do something about it. because we know that voters have

every power and especially when that power is coming under suppression from the gop to act on this and to take action. so that's why we need more of that energy from democrats. and go ahead and pass those bills to make sure people can vote and vote easily in the midterms. >> republicans fear their base and democrats go they'll still be there. it's fine. you need to show your base some passion. you know who do that? the ones you're always mad at. and the progressives. y'all need to do more of that. juanita tolliver, tim miller, thank you both. they make it clear arbery was no threat to anyone the night he was killed. >> so you're telling this jury that a man who has spent five minutes running away from you, you're now thinking is somehow going to want to continue to engage with you, someone with a shotgun, and your father, a man who's just said stop or i'll blow your [ bleep ] head off by trying to get in their truck?

>> that's what it shows, yes, ma'am. >> ooh! also, reverend al sharpton singled out by name in that very trial, joins me on a prayer vigil which he led outside that courthouse today. plus, i'll talk to abc news journalist jonathan karl on the very real threat to democracy in the final days of the trump administration. and just hours from the scheduled execution of julius jones in oklahoma, his sentence is commuted. just a tremendous relief for his mom, who will join me tonight, alongside his best friend. "the reidout" continues after this. s after this woman: i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months after just two doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, such as fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches, or coughs or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. ♪ nothing is everything. ♪

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comcast business. powering possibilities. after three days of jury deliberation, there is still no verdict in the kyle rittenhouse murder trial. the judge adjourned the court for the day a few hours ago. meanwhile, in georgia, the defense for the three men accused of murdering ahmaud arbery rested their case today. but not before the prosecution got its chance to cross-examine

mcmichael. mcmichael called his actions self-defense but acknowledged that arbery never actually threatened him. >> you testified under oath to this jury that i'm not going to chase or investigate someone who is armed, right? >> that's correct. >> and yet you want this jury to believe now that he was a threat to you, okay, and you perceived him as a threat. >> i didn't know whether he was a threat or not. >> you pulled up one. your dad is yelling cut him off, cut him off. and all of the sudden he runs back. he doesn't want to talk to you. that's three times he demonstrated to you that he does not want to talk to you. correct? >> yes. >> he also demonstrated he is no threat to you. he hasn't pulled out a gun. >> that's correct. >> closing arguments in that georgia trial will begin on monday. joining me now is paul butler, georgetown law professor. george, let me play one more sound bite from this prosecutor. it seems to me she has done a good job in establishing that the people, the person who felt

threatened was ahmaud arbery. here is this clip. this is clip one. >> you could have made sure that you and your dad called the police from your house [ bleep ] before you ever got in that pickup truck, correct? >> i could have. but i was under the impression that he has called the police. >> you could have just continued to drive behind mr. arbery and not even speak to him or confront him at all. isn't that true? >> i could have, yes. >> and you could have stayed in your truck until he ran by and then driven away to go ahead and follow him, right? >> i could have, yes. >> establish how you think this cross-examination is going. >> i thought it was very effective. so effective that it was difficult listening to travis mcmichael testify. joy, the way he described these three white men chasing mr. arbery and demanding that he stop and justify his presence reminded me of slave catchers. and of course that's where the georgia citizen arrest law comes

from. so defendants don't usually take the stand, but the calculus is different in self-defense cases. they still have a fifth amendment right not to testify. but juries want to hear their story. the risk is the he is subject to cross-examination. he admitted mr. arbery never verbally threatened anybody. he was just rung. there is compelling evidence that travis mcmichael was the aggressor. he started the fight. he admitted there was no reason to suspect mr. arbery from stealing any more than any of the white people who have been surrounding this construction site. and if travis mcmichael was the aggressor, he cannot claim self-defense. >> let me play another one, because i agree with you. i feel like his lawyers, the lawyers for the defendants, they have introduced race in a very aggressive way. we don't want black pastors and all that sort of thing. here is another piece. this is travis mcmichael talking about the fact that they are now claiming citizen's arrest. like you said, it does feel more

like the preview to a lynching the way in the olden days or like slave catchers, because they're chasing this black man down the street and demanding that he follow their orders, which they're not the police. but any way, here he is talking about whether or not they actually indicated they were doing a citizen's arrest in the moment. here you are. >> during your statement to the police, did you say that you and your father were trying to arrest mr. arbery? did you? >> in the statement? >> yeah. to the police. >> no, ma'am. >> you never told the police that you said to mr. arbery "you're under arrest"? correct? >> i did not. >> in fact, you never did tell mr. arbery you're under the arrest for the crime of -- fill in the blank. >> i didn't have time. >> it's so damning it seems to me. do you get what their strategy is? do you think they're just trying to get jury nullification and get this almost all white jury

is we don't care what the facts are. we're just going is send these men to prison. >> that may be their strategy. the jurors should see the citizen's arrest as an after the fact justification, something the defendants made up trying to explain what to many people looks like three white men lynching an african american person. and joy, you're right. it's the defense who has made a big deal about race. but the prosecution in fact has evidence that all three men are racist. according to one of the defendants, mr. bryan, right after travis mcmichael pumped those three bullets into mr. arbery, he called him the "n" word. all of the defendants said racist things on social media. but the prosecution didn't offer this when it put on its case, and the judge wouldn't let them use that information on cross-examination. >> next, let's go to the rittenhouse trial. are you surprised how long this jury has been out? >> six days of testimony, over 25 witnesses. there is no rules to this thing.

the only thing we can guess based on how long it's taking is this is a tough case for the jury. it may mean that a group of jurors who are in favor of conviction and a group of jurors who are in favor of acquittal. and if that's the case, then the lesser included instructions that the prosecution got the judge to instruct on may get those jurors a way to compromise to convict, but not in the most serious offenses. >> paul butler, as always. thank you very much, my friend. appreciate you. all right. cheers. more than 100 high profile religious and civil rights leaders voyn the family of ahmaud arbery for a wall of prayer as the trial of three men accused of killing the 25-year-old continues. the reverend al sharpton led the effort, and he joins us next. stay with us. h us [oof] i'll also be needing, stain remover, club soda and a roll of paper towels. [sfx: doorbell rings] lifesaver! [blegh] you're weird, man. to each his own. (jackie) i've made progress with my mental health.

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is here yet again in the back of the courtroom. >> there is -- was an individual walking about in the foyer outside the courtroom earlier today with a black sweatshirt saying "i support black pastors." >> what decade is this? here is how the reverend al sharpton responded to that today at an event outside the courthouse attended by hundreds of pastors in support of the arbery family. >> no more can you lock us out. because wherever you are, god is already there. so he wanted to know why we were there last week, i'm here this week with the same bible, the same god for the same parents, and we going to keep coming until we get justice. >> i'm joined now by the reverend al sharpton, host of "politicsnation" on msnbc and president of the national action network. and rev, what a world in which a lawyer thinks it's a good solid argument to say we don't want any more black pastors in here,

and try and throw you and other pastors out of the courtroom. what has the arbery family said to you about this whole spectacle while these men are on trial for killing their son? >> well, it seems unbelievable to them and very insulting. you must remember, joy, that over a year ago when this happened, and the lawyers and then themselves reached out to me, i had not even heard about the case. and i put them on "politicsnation" to talk about the case, even before the video had been discovered. so i had been in the case since day one and had tried to comfort the family. because what people don't understand is that you're sitting in a courtroom, a mother and a father looking at the three men that killed your son every day. so you want somebody there to counsel you and to console you. we weren't in there protesting, though we do protests. we were in there as ministers. i've been in courtrooms from every case you could think of

for the last three decades. i've never heard this. i've been in courtrooms where policemen were either victims or were accused and they fill the courtroom with uniformed policemen. no one objects to that. so all of the sudden for black pastors to come in a courtroom is to intimidate or to influence? by what standard? we don't know who is sitting with the defendants' families. i think this is the height of bigotry and bias. i think the judge is right to not give it to them. and i think what he has done is develop a movement. i called for 100 pastors to meet us when he started this last week on me, and we had well over 350 pastors and martin luther king iii and others, reverend jesse jackson and others with us today because he insulted all of us that have gone in the courtrooms for years and have seen people on the other side bring who they want to court. >> you know what's interesting about this, and we were just talking with paul butler. and he said the description of the way these men chased down ahmaud arbery, it was like the

old slave catchers, right? or like an old-time lynching where they just chase a man through the streets, demand he do what they say just because these white men are telling you to do it, you must do it, and then killed him and then thought nothing of it. never even told the police, this excuse that they're now using. just sitting in that trial, tell us how this looks to you, having dealt with so many civil rights cases and murders of black people. >> this is the most blatant example of a mentality that we are allowed, we are empowered to do what we want to any black. for him to admit today on the stand one of the defendants, they never even said you're under arrest. this is a civil arrest, a private arrest, whatever they want to call it. so then what is it? if you're claiming you were making the citizen's arrest, and you didn't say that, if you're claiming self-defense, which you never said until now, then it really was saying we have the

right to do whatever we want to do. we're back to dred scott, that a black has no righ that we are bound to respect. and they were not arrested for days. they were not dealt with for many weeks until this video came out and until some of us started exposing this and stood with this family. the mother said today she thought when it happened she didn't know where she would get a lawyer or any help. and it just made her feel good to see people are coming out for the last several weeks, all kinds of people, and to see all those pastors come today at the call that we made for them to come. >> let's talk about another case, because unequal justice in this country is the reason critical race theory exists. that's the real reason it exists. we just saw the exoneration of two men who spent basically their whole formative lives in prison, accused of killing malcolm x. one of them has already died. what do you make of that exoneration so many years later? these men lived with the stain of being said to have been the murders of malcolm x, and it

turns out it wasn't true. cyrus vance apologized to them, the district attorney. >> not only did they live with the stain, they spent decades in jail. imagine spending decades in jail for something you know you did not do, and the irony of this is that malcolm x preached about the corruption of the criminal justice system. and even in death, he is a victim of it. and in life these men that went to jail was a victim of it. if there was ever an example, i'm sitting here today, having left brunswick georgia with the ahmaud arbery case, looking at these stories about malcolm x, whose widow i was very close with, the god mother of my two daughters, and looking at a case in kenosha, wisconsin that has race, it's almost like we're being put back in time. but some of us are saying you can change the clock, but you can't turn back time. we're not going back to those days. >> and meanwhile there is

another case in pennsylvania, this teenager who had his hands up. the police released the video, cut out the part that showed his hands were up, put out a false story. it turns out they were lying. he had his hands up. he was killed. your thoughts. and his name is christian hall. >> here we are again, which is why we have to keep the pressure on the congress on these police reform bills like the george floyd bill. until the local police understand the federal law and they will be prosecuted and they will be treated like anybody that breaks the law, they will continue to edit, leave out what they wanted to do and did not want exposed, as they did in the malcolm x case, until they understand that we will not tolerate it, and there will be federal law. it will not go municipality, municipality, county by county. we need federal law. as they vote tonight on bbb, they need to come in with voting rights and they need to come in with the george floyd bill immediately. we cannot keep being policed by people that need to be policed.

and there is no federal law to protect us. >> we don't have a limit on how many pastor, black pastors are aloud here. you can get an amen for me on that. thank you, my big brother and friend, the reverend al sharpton. >> thank you. >> thank you. up next, a new book offers up revelations about the troubling lengths to which the twice impeached disgraced former president and his allies went in trying to tear down our democracy. author jonathan karl joins us next. ♪ when you have nausea, ♪ ♪ heartburn, ingestion, upset stomach... ♪ ♪ diarrheaaaa.♪ try pepto bismol with a powerful coating action. for fast and soothing relief. pepto bismol for fast relief when you need it most. you get more with aarp medicare advantage plans from unitedhealthcare. like free yearly eye exams... plus free designer frames and prescription lenses. ♪ wow! ♪ ♪ uh-huh. ♪ so go ahead. take advantage now. ♪ wow! ♪ ♪ baby got back by sir mix-a-lot ♪

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i thought he was well-protected, and i had heard he was in good shape. no. because i had heard he was in very good shape. but, but no, i think -- >> because you heard those chants. that was terrible, i mean. >> well, the people were very angry. it's common sense, john. it's common sense. >> that was donald trump telling

abc's jonathan karl that it was common sense for the angry maga mob on january 6 to threaten the life of his own vice president. it's just one of the many revelations in carl's new book "betrayal: the final act of the trump show." among other things, carl reveals that trump fired secretary of defense mark esper on the recommendation of the guy who formally carried his bags for him, 30-year-old john mcatee, who trump picked to lead the white house personnel office. esper's offenses according to mcatee included focusing on russia and promoting diversity in the ranks of the military, which it seems were considered betrayals of trump's mission. allies who pursued baseless election conspiracies including the claim that wireless thermostats made in china might have been used to manipulate voting machines in georgia. trump actually asked his director of national intelligence to look into that one. carl also discloses that during the insurrection, the official vice presidential photographer was in hiding with mike pence at the capitol. however, pence refused to allow

carl to publish any of the photos from during the siege, despite the fact that the photographer's salary was paid by u.s. taxpayers and the images are public property. there are also some unflattering details about former financial journalist and current trump media personal maria bartiromo of fox news, who reportedly called attorney general bill barr to complain that the justice department wasn't intervening in the election to keep trump in office. bar told carl she called me up buzz she was screaming. i yelled back at her. she's lost it. joining me now chief washington correspondent jonathan karl, author of "betrayal: the final act of the trump show." just when you think you cannot learn anything weirder about donald trump, it gets weirder. you opened the book talking about the scene. i have heard this before about the way he puts himself on display at mar-a-lago. not because he had to, because he could have gone somewhere more private to do a real

interview, but he wants to do it in public. >> first of all, this is in march. this is about two months after he left office, barely two months after january 6. i mean, everything is raw and fresh. he invites me now down to mar-a-lago to do the interview, and the interview takes place right in the middle of the lobby. the big towering ceilings, ornate walls. and the interview happened right before dinnertime. you actually hear on that tape people coming in for dinner, for happy hour. and i was looking for something. book interview is different than a television interview. you can take a step back. there is no cameras. there is a level of intimacy you can have. i mean, this was -- i wanted to see any hint of regret, any hint of remorse for what happened on january 6. and you hear it. >> none. >> absolutely none. >> you actually describe him in the opening of the book as being gleefully vhengable. the sense of revenge is what made him happy.

>> he is in a good mood. he is talking about how awful these republicans are who betrayed him. if mike pence had done what he wanted him to do, he would still be president. the terrible things that bill barr had done for him, that kevin mccarthy and mitch mcconnell had not fought for him. it got him excited. >> do you believe having sat down with donald trump, looked him in the eye and talked to him, that he genuinely believes the election was stolen, or that this is just an act, because he doesn't want to admit that he lost? >> so i believe that he has come to believe this. i don't believe it was always that way. i believe that he -- that this was an act. he knew -- it was very strategic. his whole brand is based on the fact i'm the guy who wins. >> yeah. >> so if he loses, it's done. >> yeah. >> so he had to at least convince his supporters that he had not lost. but i think now -- i had one final conversation with him over the phone over the summers as i was about to go to press. and he was telling me that texas was going to do an audit of the vote too, which now we know.

i didn't even know it yet. he was telling me. that doesn't make any sense. you won texas. what you talking about? and he just got so agitated with me that he ended up hanging up the phone. he was no longer in a good mood. i think he believes it. >> you talk about kevin mccarthy here. >> yeah. >> you write that it's not clear to you -- and i've had the same theory -- that kevin mccarthy would automatically become speaker if the house were to flip to the republicans because despite the fact that the, you know, minority leader has done everything he can to kiss up to trump and to make up with him, he probably would really rather have a jim jordan. and it's not clear the caucus would even support carl -- mccarthy. sorry. >> mark meadows, who is still very close to trump and doing everything he can to help trump out, mark meadows has told people that he -- that he wants to bring mccarthy down. so we'll see. the thing is, what mccarthy has going for him is who else is going -- who else can get a

majority? >> jim jordan. >> first of all, jordan has been very close to mccarthy. mccarthy has brought him in, friend close. he is even closer. so i don't think jim jordan would challenge him. >> what about this idea, because there is the assumption that a lot of people are making that donald trump is putting in place all of the pieces that he needs, taking down all of the people who resisted. and as you said, he is extremely vengeful, which is a lot of what this book is about, about everyone he thinks betrayed him and didn't keep hip in office. and he has put in all the people and the flunkees in place that he will run again in 2024 and be triumphant. you don't necessarily believe that? >> look, people around him say he is definitely running, he is off to the race, and certainly donald trump wants us to believe he is running. >> right. >> because that's what makes him relevant. i don't think he is going to run. i won't be shocked if he does run. but that said, he is putting in place, he is going about methodically to defeat and to

destroy anybody that was not with him in his crazy drive to overturn the election. i don't know how successful he is ultimately going to be in that. i mean there are -- we will see how this goes. but it is an effort to take out anybody who wasn't -- not just the people who voted to impeach him in the house, but this is obviously local officials. one of the moments that i thought was very significant during the rans siran is when the michigan republican leaders, these were trump people, and their constituents were solidly donald trump, and trump summons them to the oval office in late november and says i need you to reconvene the michigan legislature and send -- take back those biden electoral votes and send trump votes. and they told him flatly no. he doesn't want those kind of people around anymore. >> and he is working to get rid of them. >> and he is working to get rid of them. not with across-the-board success, by the way. but he is working. >> you also write about some of the sort of interesting characters, the sidney powells of the world. did donald trump genuinely believe that they were capable,

that this crew of people, including the pillow guy and rudy giuliani were actually capable of keeping him in office? >> it's interesting. there is a dramatic scene when he is confronting bill barr after barr said there is no election fraud, and trump is like screaming at him in this meeting in the dining room off the oval office. and barr says look, first of all, your legal team has been a clown show. and if you had any chance of challenging everything, you'd need to have the best people in there from the start. and at that point trump says well, on that you might be right. the thermostats, the italian military spy satellites that supposedly switched votes, the gina haspel got injured trying to secure a server in germany that controlled all this stuff? i can't say that, but crazy stuff, okay. here is the thing. you can find it on qanon. you can see it in the outer fringes. this was talked about in the oval office, and the president of the united states was pushing

it, and his chief of staff, mark meadows was demanding -- you mentioned ratcliff, the director of national intelligence. told him to look into it. told the department of justice to look into various things, and over at the pentagon. this was -- you can laugh about it, but this is what was driving the top executive branch of our government. >> i guess the obvious question i have to ask you, you have talked to him, sat across from him. he seems to believe all this stuff. did donald trump come across as somebody who is rational, mentally all there? >> it's a very strange thing. you know, he comes out, he's gregarious. he's got a way of trying to charm you. he doesn't seem like, you know, he's somebody that's completely insane at all. i mean, he conducts himself. he conducts his business. but it's the lack of any sense of remorse, i think, that really comes across. there's something that's just not right. >> yeah. very clear. betrayal is the name of the book.

jonathan karl, excellent job. you're going to want to read this one. thank you very much. up next, celebrations in oklahoma, as governor stitt actually commutes julius jones' death sentence just hours before his scheduled execution. his mother and his longtime friend join me next to share their elation. we'll be right back. i've got moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months, after just 2 doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms such as fever, sweats, chills, muscle aches, or coughs or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. ♪nothing is everything♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. ♪ ♪ ♪day to night to morning,♪ ♪keep with me in the moment♪

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you know, sometimes you get a remarkable news day. for the right reasons. earlier today, the governor of oklahoma commuted the death sentence of julius jones, just hours before he was scheduled to be executed for a 1999 murder that he insists he did not commit. and joining me now is madeleine davis jones, the mother of julius jones, and jimmy lawson, friend of julius jones and a candidate for oklahoma city mayor. it is such a relief to do a story that is hopeful and positive. and i'm going to start with you, ms. davis jones. the last time we had you on, you

said that you were in prayer and that you were believing on god, that your son was going to live. he had already been moved into the solitary place where he was going to, you know, get his last meal. he had already been served his last meal. so it had gone all the way down the road. when did you hear that your son was going to live? >> about 11:59, they told me at 11:55. i really don't know. i know it was some time this morning. jim bow, he woke me up this morning. he really did. >> that's a good reason for somebody to wake you up. god is good. all the time. i got to ask you, jimmy, you have been out there talking about your best friend and saying that he is innocent and proclaiming it. give me your thoughts on today.

>> it's an amazing feeling. when you put that 22-year-old grind in and all the noes we took over the years to get to this point where we are today, it's an indescribable feeling. it's like, you know, somebody took a boulder off our shoulders, just tossed it, like a relief. and joy and knowing the fact that we saved a man's life today is paramount, man. it's legendary. in my opinion, this is going to change the course of oklahoma. >> you know, i spoke to mara schiavocampo who is the amazing journalist who told me about this case. i was embarrassed i didn't know about it before she brought it to my attention, and she was just elated. praising god as well, for what happened. so mama, i have to ask you, you didn't get a chance to hold your son before what we thought was going to be the end of his life.

is there an opportunity now that you're going to get to go in, going to get to hold him and hug him and what would you say, what do you have to say to governor stitt, who did make this decision? >> well, i would just like to say god bless and that i thank him. but i just thank god most of all. >> amen. >> for giving me that opportunity. i was really, really just hurt not being able to hug him. and god is good. he turned it around. this is just a chapter. and we have just begun. >> and jimmy -- >> god is good. >> don't let anybody tell you that there is nothing that god can't do, right? and that pressure can't do. jimmy, this was also public pressure. and people bringing this story to light. talk about the next steps, because i am sure that what this young man wants to now do with his life is prove his innocence. >> yeah, absolutely.

as you say, this is a huge moment to understand that faith outweighs fear today. god gets all the praise. you know, we turn the impossible to possible today. and it just shows the world that prayer, unity, togetherness, anything is possible. so the next step is to try to figure out a plan to get ultimately julius' freedom. that's the next step. >> we know that the state of oklahoma has some terrible issues with the death penalty, with people who have been found to be innocent, the innocence project has worked on it. so is the innocence project perhaps getting involved with you all? what's the next steps, mom? >> honestly, i don't know. i just know god, right now, i'm trying to breathe this in. >> we are too. >> i know they're going to be good, yes.

>> we are, too. absolutely. jimmy, the good thing is that whatever happens next, he's alive to be able to clear his name. he's alive. he is still alive. i'm out of time, but i want to tell you thank you for being here. we're sending our love to you both. we love you, ms. madeleine davis jones. thank you for being here, jimmy lawson, thank you both. "all in" starts now. tonight on "all in" -- >> why is it that the only thing republicans will punish one of their own members for in this congress is speaking out against donald trump? >> how is it -- i don't understand your question? >> donald trump endorses paul gosar as the republican leader plans to reward him tonight. the stakes for american democracy as the troll caucus grows. then, as the build back better plan moves toward a vote, senator bernie sanders on his plan to hold up defense spending that no one is asking questions ou