men for hate crimes. i don't think it will change the resulting sentence, because the resulting sentence from the state conviction is going to be a very, very, very long time if not life for each of the three men. >> all right, everyone, big, big, day here, so let's reset what we know and where we are at the top of this hour. we're following breaking news in georgia, where a jury just reached a verdict in the case of the three men accused of killing ahmaud arbery. travis mcmichael, who pulled the trigger, was found guilty on all charges, all nine counts, including felony murder, malice murder, and aggravated assault. gregory mcmichael, his father, who drove the truck and called 911 after the shooting, was found not guilty of malice murder but guilty on all other charges. all other eight counts, including felony murder. william roddie bryan, who followed and filmed the

confrontation, was found not guilty of malice murder, but found guilty on many other charges including felony murder. let's bring in all of our guests. cal perry, danny safal os, ck ho ffler, chuck rosenberg, have we seen any appearance from any of the family members of ahmaud arbery? >> not yet. i have some details from the pool note, as the verdict was read. first, understand, outside, as the verdict was read, there was a jubilation that spread through the crowd, an audible cheering when we heard the first guilty verdict on travis mcmichael. inside the court, ahmaud arbery's mother appeared to be in silent prayer as the judge reached and read the verdict. at the first guilty verdict she

sobbed "oh," her head sunk to her chest. that's when we had that break. that was when we had that pause before we had the rest of the verdict. clearly the family is relieved. this is also a community that has been relieved. when you look at the facts of the case, they were never in doubt. you had three white men, two of them armed, chasing after an unarmed black man, 25 years old, who was jogging. it was always the circumstances, and whether or not the jury was going to buy those circumstances of a citizens arrest. a 150-year-old law. understand this community has a great deal of mistrust on the local authorities. this was not a crime scene. they let the two pickup trucks go home that same day that ahmaud arbery was killed. you have photos from the scenes showing greg mcmichael talking

to investigators. you have a community worried they would have nonguilty verdicts even in the face of what they saw as overwhelming evidence. you're seeing jubilation behind me, and katy, absolute relief. >> it is extremely intense. ck, you know georgia law, you're a trial lawyer. have you ever experienced a case where the scene of the crime was not secured, wasn't investigated, that the men were able to go home with their pickup trucks? those pickup trucks were never searched in the aftermath of this crime. >> that was clear obstruction of justice. and for it to have been directed by the district attorney, by the lead prosecutor, was absolutely unacceptable. that's why she is facing a trial herself. but i think what we have to take, the sense of relief, the sense of justice being served, not just for the arbery family. it means so much for this community. i represent reverend jesse jackson, have for 34 years. i represent the justice

coalition. both reverend jackson, rainbow push, the defense attorney tried to silence them, preclude them from being present and protesting peacefully on public property. there were so many narratives happening during the course of this trial. the jury's verdict that we hear loud and clear levels the playing field, recalibrates the injustice, the unfairness, the racial animus, and all of the tension that so many, especially the arbery family, experienced over the course of this trial and before. so that these things happened in this community, the obstruction of justice, on so many levels, the lead prosecutor telling someone who just shot and killed and was involved in all of this to go home and wash yourself, and when you get a chance, just come to the police station, that's unheard of in today's environment.

yet unfortunately, katy, it happens. it happened in georgia. it can happen elsewhere. and that is what we need to focus on, making sure these things don't happen again, because there may not be a jury like this jury that will look at the evidence, weigh it, and come to the appropriate outcome. >> let's just take us back into that courtroom for a moment. when the verdicts were read, none of the three men reacted in any big way to the verdicts. you could see it on their face, the disappointment and, you know, the reality that they're going to prison for a long time. but after count 1 was read, guilty of malice murder for travis mcmichael, there was an outburst, cal perry described this, that outburst paused the court for a moment, the judge had to remind everybody, please don't react to these verdicts. that outburst was from ahmaud arbery's father who said it was a long time coming, as he was escorted out of the courtroom. let's talk about sentencing now for these men. chuck rosenberg, danny cevallos

said it would probably be a long time in prison. is there any chance they'll get out of prison, given that they were found guilty of all these very serious charges? >> not by serving the remainder of their sentence. but people need to be ready for the fact that there will be appeals and possibly the problematic citizens arrest statute in georgia and the jury instructions ultimately given to the jury could be fertile ground for an appeal. after all, that statute was repealed after this incident. so to say it was problematic is almost established. and the judge eventually didn't -- chose not to fashion any kind of remedy but essentially read the statute verbatim. drafted in the mid-1800s, it is as confusing then as it was just before it was repealed. >> explain that to me. the statute was repealed. what was it repealed to, what's the difference between then and now? >> so first, i would just say, jury restrictions are probably the most common ground for appeal.

but this particular statute, it looks to me, and this is just my observation, that it was drafted back when we had a common law view which was that if someone commits a misdemeanor, we want to have a higher standard for a citizen to arrest them, because we don't want citizens running around arresting people for noise violations. but if it's a felony, if it's a felony, as long as you have some kind of probable cause, we'll make it a lesser standard because we do want people to stop other people committing felonies. the problem with this statute is, it didn't contain the word "misdemeanor" in the first sentence. so without getting too much in the weeds, it just resulted in a lot of confusion, not just for the attorneys but for the judge. so that statute, again, now repealed, may be or almost certainly will be appealed on grounds of constitutional vagueness. and it's not necessarily a win, but if anything is going to cause a new trial, i caution folks that those jury instructions have an outside shot. >> kristen, what do you make of that?

>> i agree 100% with what danny said. and, you know, whenever a defendant appeals, they're going to put all of their eggs in the basket, and it's mainly because of what you pointed out, katy. travis is facing a life sentence. and for the other two, william roddie bryan and gregory mcmichael, they face a hefty sentence, i think the penalty is up to 20 years for each murder and that's not even counting the federal charges. they face pretty much, all three of them, a life sentence. so they're going to try to appeal on any and all bases. but i will point out that even though they're going to, you know, try to go on the constitutional vagueness, and i think -- and i agree with danny, i think that is sound for appeal, i'm really glad at the end of the day that that statute was repealed. and i think that one thing i don't want to minimize is that the jury pointed out that this was not a citizens arrest, that

this was a violent murder, particularly as it came from travis mcmichael. and i also wanted to point out that the jury's voice i think was so profound in their verdict. i think they made a very conscientious verdict. and, you know, as a black female i think it's important to point out, you know, just a few years ago, a black boy couldn't go out and buy skittles. but now this jury is basically saying, but a black man can go jogging. and i don't want to minimize that by, you know, highlighting some of the appellate points. >> chuck rosenberg, in the federal case, when these men go to federal trial, it's going to be a hate crimes trial. are we going to see a lot more of the racial overtones, the things that were perhaps said toward ahmaud arbery in the moments or toward black people in general, in the months, days, leading up to it, the history of comments from the mcmichaels? are we going to see race play a bigger factor in that case?

what will it look like? >> i think that's right, katy. i think the racial animus which may not have been as relevant as evidence in this case, certainly relevant to their motive and their conduct, but maybe not relevant to the act of shooting him, will be more relevant in the federal case, because the federal statute is different. it's not a murder statute under federal law. it's a civil rights hate crimes based statute. so that racial animus, as you said, katy, becomes relevant. i imagine we're going to see more evidence of it. and appropriately so. one other thing i would like to point out, i think your other guests are right that this question of citizens arrest may well be raised on appeal. but as a factual matter, it was completely unavailing at trial. and i think the court made a good record on that. i think the prosecution did a superb job. even if they had authority to make a citizens arrest, under no

circumstance did they have authority to kill mr. arbery. and so defense attorneys, appellate attorneys, raise these types of issues all the time on appeal. i don't find it particularly compelling. >> let's bring in our friend paul butler, a legal analyst for us here, a georgetown university law professor, also a former federal prosecutor. paul, let's talk about self-defense here. we just saw last week kyle rittenhouse acquitted of killing two men and injuring another, acquitted using self-defense. and in this case, self-defense was also raised, but self-defense was not found to be justified here. explain that. >> so katy, every case has different facts. mr. rittenhouse persuaded the jury that each of the three men who he shot posed a deadly threat to him. he said that the first person tried to grab his gun, the

second attacked him with a skateboard, and the third aimed a weapon at mr. rittenhouse, and the jury was persuaded. in this case, mr. arbery was unarmed. there was never any evidence that he posed any threat to these three defendants. what's your emergency? a black man running down the street is not a threat. but katy, in those words there is an american history of racial violence and white supremacy and unequal justice under the law. criminal trials are not instruments of social change but they can tell us something about social progress. and in georgia, in 2021, in one case, an african american man received equal justice under the law. and that counts as progress. >> let's talk about progress and let's bring in john burruss, criminal defense attorney, to address that. john, you famously represented rodney king, which led to the

l.a. riots, the men that were accused of beating him, found beating him on videotape, were acquitted, the officers were acquitted. talk to me about what happened then and what you're seeing now. >> then was obviously a very different time. it also was a situation where rodney king himself was looked upon in a very negative way. he had, as they say, warts, if you will, based on his background. the defense did a very good job of placating and putting forget that information to the jury. this wasn't a case where you could do negatives around arbery. there wasn't any criminal background that was introduced. there was any negatives, even though they tried to criminalize him, there was no basis for it. in fact, because there wasn't any evidence of it. so in the one case you had rodney king, the effort of demonizing him, slanderizing him, and damning him, because he had been to prison and there was this whole notion that he was resisting even though it was not

correct and he was in fact being beaten up pretty badly. but this case was entirely different. here, the young man, to the extent he did anything physical, was to protect himself. i always say you can't create a confrontation and shoot your way out of it and claim self-defense, and that's exactly what happened here. he in fact created this confrontation by chasing him down. so this case was entirely different than rodney king. and i do think, as paul has said, times are different. when you look at the fact pattern, i thought this jury was more than willing to do that and they didn't buy into the whole damning and shaming of mr. arbery as they did in the rodney king case. so our times have changed in that sense. the rodney king case along with the last 30 years is an example that progress has been made in many of these cases. many more cases are being prosecuted now than ever before. some have good results, some have not. notwithstanding, progress has been made at least in the long term in terms of bringing charges on a black man who is

beaten by police officers. >> joining us, executive director of the aclu in louisiana. what impact do you think this verdict will have? >> i think this verdict sends a clear symbol that our criminal justice system still has the power to vindicate the rights of all citizens and that mr. arbery was a beautiful black man who was simply attempting to enjoy the rights that all of us are entitled to under our constitution and bill of rights, to be free, to have the liberty to move about if they show choose, and to not be subject to racial terror and violence by vigilantes, by individuals who are seeking to essentially take our country back to the times of pre-civil-war, essentially, where this very, very harmful

citizens arrest statute actually emanated from. so i think it's a beautiful day in this country, especially on the heels of the verdict that came down in the rittenhouse case. and i think it absolutely shows that we still have a justice system. we still have jurors, people have multiethnic, multiracial backgrounds, who will not fall for race-baiting, who will be empowered to stand firm on what is good sense, good values, and also the law. and so we're relieved, of course. we see it in the georgia community, the brunswick community, feeling vindicated with this very, very powerful verdict. >> we have some statements that are coming in to us. cal perry, are you still with us? >> i am, katy, i am. i've got ben crump's statement here. quote, guilty, guilty, guilty. after two years of pain,

suffering, and wondering, the arbery family has finally had some justice. katy, walking out of the courthouse right now is ahmaud arbery's mother. >> reverend al sharpton and ahmaud arbery's mother. we'll see -- there's benjamin crump as well. we'll see if they go to a microphone and tell us about how they're feeling. clearly they're feeling vindicated at the moment, lifting their arms up. but of course we would love to hear from his mother and see how she's doing in this moment. a happy moment for her but also sad, she's lost her son. >> absolutely. and these are the supporters that have been with the family since the beginning. we should remind our viewers, this was a crime that took place in february of 2020, before the pandemic. i believe we're going to hear shortly from ben crump.

>> al sharpton is about to speak. let's listen. >> let us, let us, let us say first and foremost, we're going to start by thinking god. for shining on us. let us thank these lawyers. let us thank the prosecutors. let us thank the activists that y'all called the mob that marched and stood up. let us thank all of the people that believed. and let us, more than anything, thank the mother and father of ahmaud. they lost a son but their son will go down in history as one that proved that if you hold on, that justice can come. this mother would tell me, reverend, we're going to win

this, when i had doubts. she kept praying. this father said, we got to get some justice for my son. and let the word go forget all over the world that a jury of 11 whites and one black, in the deep south, stood up in the courtroom and said that black lives do matter. let it be clear that almost ten years after trayvon, god used wanda and marcus' son to prove that if we kept marching and kept fighting, we would make you hear us. we got a lot more battles to fight. but this was an important battle today. this was proven, that our children know their value. that's why those people that marched, i'm talking about the people here that was here when nobody else was here, they stood up.

brunswick. brunswick, georgia will go down in history as the place that criminal justice took a different turn. lotus pray. let us pray. dear god, dear god, we come thanking you for your mercy, thanking you for giving us a prosecutor's team that when it looked to us like they stacked the jury, that you still found a way to open up the minds of people, to listen to the evidence and weigh it based on facts, not based on skin color, that you gave strength to this mother, and you gave strength to this father, to not give up on

you. even when many of us doubted, even when many of us said it's not going to happen, you came in the state of the georgia, a state known for segregation, a state known for jim crow, and you turned it around. you took a young, unarmed boy that they thought was worthless, and you put his name in history today. years from now, decades from now, they'll be talking about a boy named ahmaud arbery that taught this country what justice looks like. as we go forth, let us go forth in the victory you've given us. thank everyone in brunswick that marched, that stood out in front of this courthouse, that was called a lynch mob, but they kept on marching. and let us know that all whites are not racists. and all blacks are not worthless. that we are all your children.

and we will give you the grace and give you the glory, the glory be yours, not ours. let us not be proud. and let us not be vengeful. but let us be thankful that you brought us closer together today. these blessings we ask in your name and your sake. thank you, lord. thank you, lord. we never had a thanksgiving day like today. we will hear from the attorneys and the parents. let us hear from the attorney for wanda, who is running for the texas attorney general. he asked me not to say it but i'm going to say it. because we need attorney generals like this. lee merritt, followed by the attorney general of black america, who flew in and out even as he handled other cases.

these lawyers kept going to the wall and stood up. we walked out of court buildings with tears in our eyes. we cried inside. but they were tears of joy because people like thurgood marshall and others broke down barriers to produce a ben crump and a lee merritt. >> you all don't want to hear from me right now. you want to hear from the family of ahmaud arbery, as we all do, we want to wrap our arms around them. the only reason i'm speaking today is to provide an introduction for a praying mother. you all have known here now for the last 18 months. 18 months ago when she learned about the murder of her son, they told her she would just,to deal with it alone. they told her there would be no arrest, there would be no accountability, that there would be no justice. she made her son a promise before she laid him in the ground, that his mom would fight for justice for him. in order to do that, glenn

county had to change. she couldn't find justice in the glenn county. there was a prosecutor standing in her way, she's facing criminal charges herself. when she was looking for justice in glenn county, she was faced with a corrupt legal system. one that never fully investigated her son's murder as we learned during the course of this trial. wanda performed her own investigation. wanda hired her own attorneys and can you give a round of applause for this fighting, faithful, praying mother. wanda, come forward. [ applause ] >> i just want to say thank you, guys, thank you to every one of

you who fought that fight for us. it's been a long fight. it's been a hard fight. but god is good. early in, he never saw -- to tell you the truth, i never saw this day back in 2020. i never thought this day would come. but god is good. and i just want to tell everybody, thank you. thank you for those who marched. those who prayed. most of all, the ones who prayed. thank you, guys, thank you. and now, quez, you know him as ahmaud, i know him as quez, he will now rest in peace. >> you all heard the

gut-wrenching grunt that came out of marcus aubrey when they pronounced travis mcmichael guilty. he could not contain it any further. because think about how long he and wanda have been enduring all the innuendo, all the allegations, all the character assassinations. long legs with dirty toenails. just imagine all they went through, that when he heard that, reverend al, he could not contain himself, because marcus has a father. they see their job as to protect their children. and you can experience the pain of a mother and a father who

they witnessed not being there to protect their child. every parent in america can take solace in knowing that we have an example of how to deal with tragedy and grief when they look at the example of marcus arbery and wanda cooper. and we should applaud them. they should be applauded. [ applause ] and i tell you all, we together did this. we all together, black, white, activist, faith members, lawyers, prosecutors, we did this together. we said, america, we will make us better than what we saw on that video.

and i would be remiss if we didn't acknowledge, even though we are clapping and we're cheering and we applaud, wanda and marcus still are devastated because they're missing ahmaud. devastated. and so even though this is not a celebration, it is a reflection to acknowledge that the spirit of ahmaud defeated the lynch mob. the spirit of ahmaud defeated the lynch mob. the spirit of ahmaud defeated the lynch mob. marcus arbery. >> number one, i want to give all glory to god because that's who made all this possible.

number two, i want to thank his mama. i want to thank my brothers, i want to thank my children for being strong because i know it was hard, what they had to deal with. and number two, i want to thank all y'all people for the support y'all gave us. ain't no one side did this. god put us all together to let this happen. god don't work one-sided. god works two sides, i'm going to put you here and put you there. that's what it's all about, because if one side wouldn't have worked, it wouldn't have happened. you would have had people working when they weren't working. we got that lynch mob.

a black kid's life don't matter. for real, all life matters. we don't want to see nobody go through this, i don't want to see no daddy watch their kid get lynched, shot down like that. it's all our problem. it's all our problem. let's keep fighting, let's keep making this place a better place for all human beings, all human beings, everybody. love everybody. all human beings need to be treated equally. today is a good day. >> before the lawyers come back, let me also say, as i said to all of the activists, the family thanks them. we thank a lot of those that were local. reverend baker, who stood up

even when other clergy wouldn't stand up. those pastors stood with the family. we want to thank barbara eimwine, who's been here from the beginning. all of the ministers that came last thursday. we want to thank cliff, who has been a rock. and i want to thank, if he's watching, reverend jesse jackson, who despite his illness came down, sat in that courtroom. and all of us, this is a day, white and black activists showed we could unite and beat the lynch mob that killed ahmaud. and though i never say this often, i must say, we want to thank the prosecutors. they stood and fought for this family. tomorrow, in all our joy today, there will be an empty chair at

wanda's table. ahmaud would not be at thanksgiving tomorrow. but she can look at that chair and say to ahmaud, i fought a good fight and i got you some justice. we can't fill that chair for you, wanda, but we can say that you are a mother above all others. you fought for your son. and marcus, you fought for your son. even though it will be a somber or sober and solemn thanksgiving, you can thank god you didn't let your boy down. >> thank you, reverend. so ben and i had a difficult task to do, showing up to this courthouse and turning the case over to the prosecutors. we want, as attorneys, as advocates, we want to exercise control over something this

important. and it was difficult to relinquish that control to the cobb county prosecutor's office. of course we had to under the law. and they did what they had to do to secure a conviction. i applaud them for putting on an airtight case that led to the conviction of these men. that he invited wanda and mark and you say marcus and their supporters to attend they're press conference. we're going to step back and allow the prosecutors to make a presentation about their case as we stand with them in solidarity and thank them for their efforts. >> it's a good example for when lee merritt is texas attorney general. [ cheers and applause ]

>> hello, hi name is latonia heinz, executive assistant attorney for the cobb county -- >> please be quiet so they get the respect they so richly deserve. >> i am the executive assistant district attorney for the cobb county district attorney's office. i bring you greetings and remarks from our district attorney brody who was appointed as district attorney pro tem for this case and for the prosecution of this case. unfortunately he was not able to be here due to a family medical emergency. first and foremost, we want you to know that from the moment this case came to our office, it was our foremost goal to ensure that we got justice for ahmaud arbery's family. and in particular, we are so very proud and thankful for the confidence that the family has

given to us. we admire and commend the courage, the steadfastness, and the strength of ms. wanda cooper jones, ahmaud's mother, and mr. marcus arbery sr., the father of ahmaud, in seeking justice during this process. it has been a long road and we are so happy that we're able to be here at this end of this road. we would like to also say thank you, and we commend the courage and bravery of this jury to say that what happened on february 23rd, 2020, to ahmaud arbery, the hunting and killing of ahmaud arbery, it was not only morally wrong, but legally wrong. and we are thankful for that. we want to thank and specifically recognize some people who have been involved with regard to the prosecution of this case. in particular our team.

our lead attorney, senior assistant district attorney linda donakowsky. [ cheers and applause ] assistant district attorney larissa olivera. senior assistant district attorney paul camarillo. our chief investigator charles prescott. deputy chief investigator keith lamone. investigator cameron watson. investigator darius mcclure. we also need to thank people from at home who have also been helping us with regard to this case. ms. kayla willis, ms. jada baxter who is here, cindy barred, laramie floyd, matt morgan. our communications department, our fire and ema, i.s., d.o.t., gis. we also need to thank the gbi, the georgia bureau of

investigation, in particular director vic reynolds. special agent richard dial, who i believe is here with us. special agent jason seacrest. special agent lawrence kelly. and inspector eve rogers. we also knead to thank specifically the glenn county police department, deputy chief ricky evans and captain jeremiah berquist. glenn county sheriff neal jump. glenn county clerk of court ron adams. georgia state patrol, major thoronow king. operational managers for homeland security, todd keys. what we can make note of is that ahmaud's death has signaled significant changes in this community, in our state and in

this nation. with the passing of georgia's first ever hate crime bill and the changing of georgia's antiquated citizens arrest law. we want to thank this community for the support that it has given to the family and to us. and the community at large. and we want to have some opportunity to have some remarks also from our team. so our senior assistant district attorney and lead attorney, linda donakowsky. [ cheers and applause ] >> thank you. thank you very much. but this was a team effort. i want everyone to know that this was a gigantic team effort. d.a. flynn brody put his faith

and trust in our team. and i could not have done it without my trial partners. they were all very, very instrumental in making this happen. we had so many people on the team that helped to bring justice for ahmaud and his family. and we really, really appreciate the support that we had and the faith from mr. arbery, okay, and from ms. wanda cooper jones who have been with us and put their faith in us and trusted us to bring justice for ahmaud. and the verdict today was a verdict based on the facts, based on the evidence, and that was our goal, was to bring that to that jury so they could do the right thing. because the jury system works in this country. and when you present the truth to people and they can see it, they will do the right thing. and that's what this jury did today in getting justice for ahmaud arbery. thank you. [ cheers and applause ]

>> hey, you all, hey. the parents, wanda and marcus, and the family of ahmaud arbery, lee and cliff, all of us, we've been hear most days of the trial. but there is a lady who is steadfast in her conviction. she's one of those naacp warriors, reverend al.

miss polite, 87 years old, has been here every day of jury selection and every day of trial. so let's thank -- where she at? so let's thank that she-ro, ms. polite. it's people like her, why we got justice. motivated. >> the family of ahmaud arbery and those who support them, clearly very happy that they've received some justice in this case. but also very clear that this does not bring their son back, that they lost their son and they lost him without reason. let's bring in everyone that's back with us to discuss what we just saw.

christen gibbons feden, when we consider this case and consider the outcome of the case and what's going to happen next, what do you expect in terms of these self-defense laws but also these citizens arrest laws that are out there? the defense that this set of attorneys tried to use for the mcmichaels and william roddie bryan. >> you know, as we know, that citizens arrest law was repealed. but it sparked a conversation, a national conversation that i think is really important. when we're talking about reformative efforts for citizens arrest laws, we do not want these citizens arrest laws to be used for people who are just fearful of a black person in society. we do not want citizens arrest laws to be used for people to play out and act violently on their unconscious or conscious biases. so the nice thing is it has sparked a conversation about efforts on reform, looking at

limiting the offense such that a citizens arrest can only be used in certain circumstances. in georgia they repealed it to the point where it only really can be used for detention purposes only and even then, only by a shopkeeper. reformative efforts could also include that it should not and cannot include deadly force in any regards. even if a person is fleeing. and then other efforts are to just allow -- make sure that the police are notified. you know, and i think the important reason that this is sparking this type of conversation, as one of the guests pointed out earlier, these laws were made right at the civil rights era and they were made with racial undertones. and as we see it within the criminal justice system, it is disproportionately affecting black americans. and again, with that self-defense argument, is it going to be believed? when we're looking at self-defense as it is defined

within the legal world, you look at reasonability. is it reasonable for individuals to feel like they are in immediate threat of bodily injury, serious bodily injury or death? and as we look at different biases and we look at how our criminal justice system has played out, unarmed black people are killed by law enforcement three times the rate of white americans. white federal judges sentence black men to prison sentences on average 20% longer than white men with similar circumstances. and again, going back to even rittenhouse, why a police officer who saw a black man with a pocket knife, jacob blake, was in such fear of his life because he was justified -- because remember, he wasn't charged -- in shooting a black man seven times in the back. we look at ourself defense laws, we look at reasonability, how it is defined in the legal construct, and we begin to

realize these are based on how people define them. and if we have racism and systemic racism, whether conscious or subconscious, guiding these views, then it will disproportionately affect black americans. so we need to look at these laws and make them a lot more objective so that we can get results like we see here today, because keep in mind, we are happy today because there is a conviction. but this arrest took a long time. and we are still facing a prosecutor who engaged in an obstruction of justice which was described earlier on the show. so that path to justice was not clear, and it wasn't straight. >> let's talk about linda danakowsky, ben crump made a point of praising her and praising the work she did in this case. it's worth reminding everyone she was almost not the prosecutor for this case, that this case almost didn't go to trial, and that these men almost were not arrested for the murder

now of ahmaud arbery. cal perry, talk to me about how linda danakowsky came to be the lead prosecutor in this case. >> so roll the clock back, february 23, ahmaud arbery is killed. and for two months there is really little movement on the case. it's only when that video, that video that was shot by william bryan, is sort of leaked. it first goes to a radio station and then it's picked up by prosecutors who are then able to charge folks. greg mcmichael, the father of travis mcmichael, who was in that first pickup truck, is a former investigator for the d.a.'s office here in brunswick county. first, the d.a. in brunswick county recuses themselves. then it goes to waycross district court, the d.a. there recuses himself but not before

writing a letter saying that the actions were perfectly legal. then it went to linda danakowsky and that's somehow she ended up taking the case. you have all of these outstanding that remain about how the local authorities handled this case. we talked about the two pickup trucks. those two pickup trucks were never impounded, they were never searched. there was never a crime scene made. there are photos of greg mcmichael, the former police officer, talking to the investigators at the scene of the crime. all of this is what raised the eyebrows not only of the family but of the family's attorneys and it's how we ended up with linda danakowsky giving that closing argument yesterday. >> let's go to nantucket. josh lederman, you have been following president biden. he has now released a statement about this. >> reporter: that's right. we have not seen president biden on camera today, katy. but he is now weighing in in a written statement, calling the death of ahmaud arbery a devastating reminder of how far we have to go for racial justice

in this case country. i'll read a little bit of the statement to you. president biden saying, mr. arbery should be here today celebrating this holiday with his mother and with his father. nothing can bring mr. arbery back to his family and his community. but the verdict ensures that those who committed this horrible crime will be punished. the president going on in that written statement to say, while the guilty verdict reflects our justice system doing its job, that alone is not enough. and you know, this has been a case that president biden has been watching right from the very start, katy. he was a presidential candidate, the would-be nominee at the time that this death occurred. and within days, he said he had watched the video, he called this a lynching, and has been calling ever since for justice for ahmaud arbery including on the anniversary of his death when president biden recognized that occasion with a tweet once again calling for justice. but at the same time, you know, the white house in all of these cases that we've been following

so closely has tried to not veer over the line into weighing in on what independent courts and the justice department and independent prosecutors should be doing. they don't want to second-guess the independent justice system, which is why just a few days ago after the rittenhouse verdict we saw president biden saying, look, juries work, this system works, we have to trust juries even if it's not the outcome that we wanted to see. and yet here today in the aftermath of these multiple guilty verdicts, we see the president weighing in a little bit more vocally in favor of wanting to see justice done and reflecting the fact that in his view, this is a step in the right direction to making sure there's accountability for these types of crimes, an effort that he says his administration will continue to undertake to try to bring racial justice and try to make sure that there is equity for people who suffer these kinds of incidents. he says that's something his administration is committed to

and that he will continue working on going forward, katy. >> josh, thank you. you just heard a moment ago benjamin crump mention an 87-year-old woman who had been at court every day, a local woman. we have a little bit of sound from her. we just want to play it now. it. >> could we ask you how you're feeling with the verdict? >> overjoyed, believe me. but you know what? i had confidence that god would do it. >> do you mind telling us real quick how long you have been fighting for justice. i know you have been an activist for awhile. >> for 87 years. >> 87 years, she was in the courtroom every single day. let's go back to the charges here and the guilty counts. there was some difference between what some of of the men were found guilty of, malice murder was the only count that travis mcmichael was found guilty of, but greg was not and

william was not. also while the men were found guilty of felony murder, it's confusing to keep track of. let's go to paul but letter. explain malice murder and felony murder. >> malice murder means that one had the intent to kill. felony murder means you didn't have the intent to kill, but while committing a felony, somebody died. travis was convicted of malice murder and felony murder. fwreg ri gregory was found not guilty of malice murder. which means jurors found he did not have the intent. travis was the trigger man. under the law, the other two could have been found guilty, but it's not unusual for jurors to single out the trigger person.

fwa has extremely tough sentencing laws. malice murder and felony murder carry a mandatory life sentence. the only discretion that the judge has in sentencing is life with with parole or without parole. even if the judge grants the possibility of parole. they have to serve 30 years in prison before they become eligible. >> that's quite a long time. when do you think we're going to -- i don't think they have announced the sentencing hearing yet, but how quickly do those normally happen post guilty verdict? >> it depends on the jurisdiction. there's not going to be a whole lot of suspense about the sentence. here i think that the next focus will be on the federal charges. and whether frankly they will cop a plea. since most will spend the rest of their lives in prison, they

will have to decide whether they want to fight the federal case. in that federal case, a lot of of the evidence will be admitted that didn't come in. i think the prosecutor could have introduced that evidence, but i think she looked at this jury, and she decided that she didn't want to look like she was injecting race in the case. she thought she had enough evidence without using the racial bias to get her conviction. she was correct. >> how likely is the federal prosecutor to accept a plea deal? are they going to want the to make this go away so quickly? or do they want it use this case as an example? >> that's a great question. when you're a lawyer, most cases settle 95% result in a conviction, but that's on the basis of a guilty plea.

and the reason why lawyers like plea agreements is you don't have to worry about what a jury will do. on the one hand, the justice department will think about the important values that you raise. since race didn't come up in this trial, the evidence of racism by the defendants was never introduced. sometimes it's really important to name the evil. and that's what a hate crime prosecution would do. so maybe the justice department will throw the book at these defendants that not allow a plea. on the other hand, maybe they will be willing to strike a deal since regardless, based on the state charges, these defendants, most of them will spend the rest of their lives in prison. >> what do you want to see if this trial or these men do go up for a federal trial? >> i do think it the federal

trial will go forward and should go forward. because the the hate crimes, when you have the underlying crime, felony murder, plus bias, it's so important for this country to have convictions based on hate crime because there are thousands of people that have been victims and are victims on a daily basis of hate crimes. so much so that in georgia, after the murder of ahmaud arbery, we now have a hate crime stature. it's very important on the federal level to send the message. i think that it the head of of the justice department. you have kristin clark, you have people who know a seasoned civil rights lawyer who has prosecuted cases, who knows these cases inside out, i would imagine would be vitally important for

them to pursue this case because it's not enough for it to announce there's a crime committed. that there's a conviction based on crime. the hate crime component of this is so strong and there needs to be an example of this case because throughout this country, there are other cases that also need to come to the forefront to obliterate this. this should not happen. it's important for this bias that exists and so many cases that go buried that the unsung heroes, people that it died and never, ever, ever, the families never see justice, this is an opportunity for there to be justice and this is the case. i hope it goes forward. >> what evidence would we see in a federal trial that we did not see in this cayce? >> there's so many statements that it the mcmichaels made. that 911 call was just the tip of the iceberg. someone calling 911 there's a black man running, my goodness.

if you ever needed through positive of what hate crimes look like, let's start with the 911 call. i saw footage this jury never saw where greg mcmichael, you can see ahmaud arbery's body in that video clip that this jury never saw sitting there. . you can see him with blood on hids hasn't. the prosecutor told him to wash it off. the blood on his hands, he's talking in a way that we got one of them. it really, really, really, there's so much footage and evidence that points directly to racial bias. and that's what we see in this case. i think there's a whole narrative that we haven't even ever seen that the justice department has or will have access to that's important for this country to see. we need to see what hate crimes look like and successfully

prosecuted. frankly, this is the justice department to do it. and i have a lot of faith in kristin clark because she heads the civil rights division. and i have a lot of faith this this attorney general that he will be able, they will be able to bring justice on the hate crime front as well. >> it's likely one of these men will appeal, if not a all of them. is there any chance they will be released pending appeal? >> there's always a chance. i doubt it. given the nature of the offenses and how significant they are, it's more likely than not they should be in custody. it may not be totally his decision. they could reverse it. who knows what could happen then. it's important that the message here has to be that you're going to be in custody. this case is particularly significant historically because

many of us remembered the terrible cases of black men have been shot and killed or lynched and to justice had come from that. this case shows that given where we are now, things can can change. there will be a change. it's important for an historical point of view we can give consideration to all the cases that have taken place and this is a first step along the march toward getting equal justice for african-american when is they killed in a manner that's unjustified. >> we're hitting the end of this two-hour block, but i want to fwif you a chance to sum this up as quickly as you can. >> i think there's a referendum that this verdict sends. it welcomes, in particular, members of the white community to recognize they can no longer expect the legal system to uphold white supremacy and take

liberties that deprive people of their freedom. i also think this is a critical time to talk about the importance of inclusive education. to talk about the importance of making sure every single american knows the history of the racist laws in this country and the ways in which they have been baked into the dna of this country. that's the most important thing that we can talk about. we are going to really get justice going forward. >> for everybody that joined us for the past two hours to discuss this momentous day and momentous verdict here in the united states, thank you. hallie jackson picks up our coverage right now. we're staying on that breaking news here on msnbc. guilty verdicts against the three men now convicted of murdering ahmaud arbery. >> malice murder, we find travis