good to see you. >> chuck todd and mtp daily starts right now. it's been a busy show. have a great, safe weekend. if it's friday, now is the winter of our discontent. omicron spreads. the jobs report mixed. congress kicking the can down the road again. and young americans are sounding the alarm about the state of our democracy. plus moments ago, prosecutors announced that the parents of the 15-year-old gunman who killed four people at that school shooting in suburban detroit have been charged themselves in connection to the tragedy. we'll have the latest on that coming up. and president biden says he's putting together a plan to combat russian aggression in ukraine as concerns grow that putin is on the verge of an invasion. foreigner ambassador to ukraine joins me ahead.

well, hello. welcome to meet the press daily. it's friday. are we headed for a winter of discontent in american politics? it looks that way. the omicron variant has now been detected in at least six states. the cdc is tightening restrictions for international travelers and economists are bracing for economic disrussians. it comes as the monthly jobs report showed mixed messages and despite recent job growth rate gains, they're being wiped out by rising inflation. it does take about three months to get a full picture of one month's report. so grain of salt with this report today. president biden this morning did tout the overall trend of the covid recovery. he acknowledged that the mood around the kitchen tables in america is something he's listening to. >> despite this progress, families are anxious. they're anxious about covid. they're anxious about the cost of living. the economy more broadly. they're still uncertain.

i want you to know i hear you. it's not enough to know that we're making progress. you need to see it and feel it in your own lives around the kitchen table and in your checkbooks, and that's why every day my team and i are working to deliver consistent determined focussed action to overcome the challenges we still face. the economic anxiety and covid concerns are only being compounded by the deep dysfunction in washington. which was on full display this week as congress scrambled to avoid a government shutdown. it pretty much is the normal state. amid intraparty squabbles on the right about the tactics pg used to try to diffuse the mandate. the daily -- americans are losing faith, losing faith in our future. losing faith in the democracy. the crisis of confidence is particularly notable among america's youth. look at this. according to new harvard youth poll this week a majority of americans ages 18 to 29 say u.s.

democracy either has failed or is in trouble. more than a third of young americans say they see a chance of a second civil war in their lifetimes. bottom line, this is a difficult and tumultuous time in america. let alone american politics. and that's where we start the show today. joining me now is our white house correspondent, monica alba. i have our senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake with us. to talk more about the harvard study is the director of politics behind the poll numbers you saw. he's also the author of the upcoming book "fight. how gen-z is channelling their fear and passion to save america". let me start with monica and where we are on any new covid restrictions that are coming. any new thoughts about -- because the biggest i think concern they have is whatever progress we made in untangling the supply chain in the last month is about to be -- i guess

the hose is about to be rekinged again. >> precise. the president sees these things as intertwined, which they are. today he was asked specifically on the question of domestic travel. something we've been talking about on this program for some time. and he said i'm listening to the scientists. i'm listening to my chief medical advisers and right now they tell me that is not needed. but t keyword and emphasis there on right now. this is a posture now the white house is taking that is signifying to all of us this could shift. the international restrictions that are going to take place on monday are some of the most stringent. anyone entering the united states just 48 hours or so from now coming from any foreign country is going to have to seek a test in the day before they travel, and we're just getting all of these new details about how that's going to work. who is going to have to pay for them and try to enforce and do all of these things. that's something that's going to have to be figured in the near-term. the white house is pointing to those kinds of things. but not answering as clearly the

question of why are we doing that now? why didn't we do that sooner when other countries were taking similar steps when we saw the delta surge, and the biggest thing to remind everybody is we're still in the wave of a very intense delta surge that more than 99% of the cases right now of covid are from that variant and not the new one. but the president said he's going to continue to have very regular meetings and evaluate more of these. but you're right today in his remarks on the economy, he acknowledged that, again, this is going to take a long time. the road to recovery is an uneven one. and it doesn't seem like this news of the variant is going to produce better numbers. we should remind everybody there have been a lot of revisions when it's come to the jobs numbers in the past. it could happen again with the most recent figures. >> monica, one of the things that i wanted to make sure today and what we're leading with the harvard poll is how sour so many parts of america are. particularly among youth. i know in my talks with the

white house advisers, i think they think there's not much about the environment that they can do. do you get that same sense there? they know that people are not feeling good about the direction of a lot of things. the democracy, the economy, covid. but do they give you the same sense that there's -- they think it's out of their hands? >> well, in conversations with white house officials, i think a year ago or so after the president elect biden was announced the next president, there were some polling that americans were actually more optimistic about what the government could do for them. that they wanted federal control of more things, and there was a little bit of optimism heading into this year. and if you look at polling now, that has shifted. and people to your point, younger people, are feeling like the government is trying to do too many things, and that they're not doing them well. so this white house does see it as a tall order to try to help and convince people that they are doing things that will directly help americans who are feeling the pinch. but at times, they have struggled with that in terms of

messaging. we saw it all summer long with the infrastructure packages. and while there were elements popular when polled. when you asked a lot of people, including young americans, what was in it, they couldn't actually identify it or specify it. they know that's something they've struggled with and they're trying toim prove, again, heading into this battle on whether the other piece of his economic agenda is going to be passed. as we know, another tall order in the coming weeks. >> that's for sure. >> monica, thank you. >> garrett, i want to start this way with you. because i want to tie it to what we're talking about with sort of the sour mood of the country in general. members of congress are self-aware that they work in a dysfunctional body. i've seen it. it's amazing to me they dplan about the dysfunction, but none of them take responsibility for it. are they aware -- is this a bug or a feature these days? >> well, i think in the current congress, it's a feature. it's built in. i mean, i interviewed mark warner to talked about the fact

that never in his life had he worked anywhere with such a dysfunctional relationship with simple deadlines. the idea of getting your work done ahead of time. it is built in, but the political will to change it has been lacking. the bottom line is we're -- this conversation, we could do it now. we could do it later. we're going to go back to talking about the filibuster. that's what this is about. it is about the inability to breakthrough with legislation, and the rules in this body. it is not sexy, but until a majority party, this one, perhaps a future republican one, decides they want to get serious about moving things through congress in an orderly way that allows the majority whoever it may be to pass things, whether with amendments from the other side or without, it's going to stay like this. it has been stay sis for a while. and there's no other way i think to ultimately break that if we as a country want to break it. >> and let's go more short-term and near-term. so we avoided the government

shutdown. are we going to get the debt ceiling done, and is that about the debt ceiling and the defense bill, is that the bear minimum that's going to happen before the holidays? >> think both of those things are probably likely to get solved. the defense bill is hung up by one amendment that's being fought for by marco rubio on forced labor in china. this is the kind of thing that happens when you get up close to a deadline. no one senator can stop anything from happening permanently. but any one senator can slow things down a lot. when you're up against a deadline, you have a lot of power. that's what we're seeing what the ndaa. likewise, i think with the debt ceiling, everyone in this body understands they cannot play with the full faith and credit of the united states when it comes to paying our bills. the question is what will be the issue that is played with up against this deadline? chuck, i think it's a pretty good bet somebody will find one. >> of course. of course. garrett haake on capitol hill for us. garrett, thank you.

let me bring in john from the harvard institute of politics. he's been shepherding this poll of america's youth for quite some time now. and look, in your own press release, john, it did seem as if you were saying hey, we do this poll regularly, but oh, my god, please pay attention to the results of of this one. it did feel as if you were trying to shake us in the media. please, give this a little attention. why are you so troubled? >> well, as you noted, we have more young americans, and by the way, let's define our example. we talked to 18 to 29-year-olds. there are about 55 million in that age group in america today. this mostly gen-z. they voted in record numbers in the mid determines and record numbers in 2020. and they're starting their political voice now and telling us they are deeply concerned at the fabric of our democracy. number one, number two, they're

deeply concerned about the health of our environment, in our climate, and those two things together in addition to social media and the other struggles they have and the structures, are impacting their mental health in extremely significant ways. 25% of this generation that we polled indicate that they had serious thoughts of self-harm. more than one time over the last two weeks. so this is a pandemic of mental health. it's a pandemic about our democracy. >> well, i was just going to say, i tell you, i saw that poll number about the depressed issue, and i thought okay, we need to dig deeper into that. so let me ask you what is the next set of poll questions you want to find out and find out what it is? i can tell you what i'd love to see and open it. you have felt depressed. why? i think we don't know for sure -- we're speculating, high

hypothesizing some of the whys. i assume you'd like to know the whys. >> of course. there are a couple of indications of what's happening. it's always been a challenge being an adolescent or young person with work and with school and social things as well. but we have noticed an increase in those people indicating political news, political pressure, concerns about democracy. their own personal safety. chuck, as you reported, there are more school shootings in this year than any other year in memory, i believe. and when i ask young people what connects us as young americans, what do we need to know as researchers, they say fear. fear of their health, all of this. it's something you can't hide from when you're talking to young people today. >> and they don't seem to have a lot of confidence in any leaders. i look add the numbers here. nobody is over a majority in approval. joe biden is down to 46%. democrats as a party at 43%.

republicans at 31%. there was a couple of little interesting nuggets in this. number one, on the -- there's a larger number of youth that identify as conservative than republican. which, to me, screams that the republicans have a branding problem. because these conservatives don't like trump. >> yeah. to give you a sense of the republican party that we're polling, only 25% of young republicans in our last poll, the spring of this year, thought that joe biden won the election. only 25%. 25% thought trump won, and the rest of them were unsure. so there is a greater number of conservatives. and this is consistent for many years, something for a republican party that respects government and respects the concerns that they have. but i don't think that the current version of the trump republican party is really kind of connecting with the mainstream conservative young americans today.

>> and then on the left, with the most popular politician, once again, bernie sanders. >> yeah. you know, he's got the same favorable rating as biden. he's got a low unfavorable rating. the thing to put into context, i think, there's one set of numbers especially young voters ascribe to. barack obama for eight years, his average approval rating was only 49% or so. but when it's a democrat versus republican when those are the choices, we see different results. it's probably because frankly, other republicans failing, i think, to try to make connections with younger people. at the beginning of the survey, 21 years ago, george w. bush won as many young voters as al gore. >> the overall take i have on this poll is voters under 30 don't look like they have a lot of reasons to show up to the polls right now. is that what you see? >> actually, thankfully not. they've got more reasons to show up to the polls than ever.

and we saw that -- as i said, turnout in 2018 midterm was a record high we're tracking actually the same number at this stage of the midterm election. >> so the depression isn't impacting -- so the -- sometimes you worry about that. depression could impact the interest in the election, or people just sort of give up hope. forget it. it doesn't matter. >> it could, but i think that's what previous generations did. it was, frankly, the movement around parkland and that depression of fear that turned into fight. and made them stronger. and there was actually a correlation in our 2018 polling. the more depressed you were, the more likely you were to vote in the midterms. so i -- listen, i'm an optimist by journalist. i spend so much time around young people. i have to be. but i still think that we are on track for a significant turnout. but listen, we can't take it for granted. we need to find ways to

communicate with them. >> this is to me the canary in the coal mine here. and i think that's the most important point. washington wake up. it's not just america's youth, but they're the most depressed right now. it's not like the rest of the country is happy either. john from the harvard institute of politics. thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective. >> thanks for having me. up next, covid cases and the deaths on the rise ahead of what's expected to be a busy travel season. we'll talk to the governor of kentucky to does how the state is dealing with the pandemic. and the parents of a shooter charged with involuntary manslaughter. why the prosecutor says she had no choice but to take this unusual step. you're watching "meet the press daily". press daily" it's dignity. the freedom to go where you want, knowing your doctor can watch over your heart. ♪♪

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but this is different. - chesa takes a very radical perspective and approach to criminal justice reform, which is having a negative impact on communities of color. - i never in a million years thought that my son, let alone any six-year-old, would be gunned down in the streets of san francisco and not get any justice. - chesa's failure has resulted in increase in crime against asian americans. - the da's office is in complete turmoil at this point. - for chesa boudin to intervene in so many cases is both bad management and dangerous for the city of san francisco. - we are for criminal justice reform. chesa's not it. recall chesa boudin now. welcome back. turning to the coronavirus pandemic. as states gear up for the uncertainty of the omicron variant, many have their hands

full with the delta variant with increased gatherings in travel, massachusetts reported the largest single-day case count since last winter's case count. one massachusetts hospital ran out of icu beds yesterday with one top doctor saying it's, quote, as bad as i've ever seen it. in minnesota a third federal medical team arrived to relieve doctors and nurses who are dealing with the spike in cases there. and in kentucky the governor says cases in the commonwealth are escalating. the test positivity rate past 9% and nearly 1,000 people in the hospital right now with the virus. and the governor of kentucky joins me now. we are in the midst of essentially a -- i don't know what you want to call this, the second delta surge. our fourth surge, however you want to call it. the omicron variant coming. you have all the tools you need, but do you have the public's will to tackle this? >> well, as we prepare for

omicron, making sure that we are doing the sequencing that we need to discover it when it's here and getting samples for suspicious cases, what we know we've got to do is continue to fight the delta variant. while there are so many unanswered questions with omicron, we know that delta is the most transmissible form we've seen to date. it's one of the deadliest forms. it overwhelms our hospitals. we've been where massachusetts and minnesota and michigan are right now. it hurts. it takes far too many lives. so the best thing we as a country can do right now is fight back against delta and all those same things we need to do to prepare for this variant. so get more people vaccinated. getting the second shot in people who only had one, and getting our boosters. we are seeing that. yesterday we had about 5,000 people get their vaccine for the first time. we had 13,000 get a booster. so the news, the concern is getting out there.

it is getting people boosted. because if we can get that immunity back up to the 90% area, regardless of what omicron is, we're going to be better prepared for it. >> what is -- what do you think is the best way to get shots in arms? i know nobody wants a mandate. okay? i get it. but at the end of the day, it does feel as if we've all had kids. we all know what it's like. unless you're told you have to do something, you're not going to do it. and if you're told you have to do it for a paycheck, you're more likely to do it. we've seen that evidence with tyson, united airlines. you think it's probably the only tool we have left? >> well, first as a dad of two kids, maybe it was just my position, but they were really excited to get vaccinated. and it is good out there to see our kids that have sacrificed so much in the midst of this, want to truly be a part of it, to get that vaccine and to get back to normal. you know, while we are not getting people vaccinated

enough, i think there are two points that we got to reflect on. number one is we've vaccinated more people in this period of time, less than a year, since the first vaccines went out than ever in human history. it's just the adversary we face is so deadly and so difficult that we have to get even more shots in arms. the other thing i'd say is we still are getting shots into new arms and new people. just not at the pace that we want. and probably not at the pace we need, and then add that complexity that we're seeing with omicron in that we've got to do this not just in the united states, not just in kentucky, but in the entire world. so it's defeating this thing is going to take time. we are at war. it's not fought in weeks. it's fought in years. but we can still do this, and we have to do this. >> you have -- your legislature has put some limitations in what you can and can't do with certain parts of the covid

issue. but there was another -- there's plenty of studies once again to show the mask are probably our best way to prevent us from having to do shutdowns. is that something you can find a way to bring back? i mean, it does feel as if at a minimum, you know, if we can get people wearing masks, we don't have to worry about shutting down schools or shutting down other parts and shutting down businesses. >> well, whether we're talking about the first version of covid, the alpha, the delta, the omicron variant, we know that several things work. number one, getting vaccinated. but number two, wearing your mask. we know that if we can lessen the spread, we have hospital capacity to take care of people. that we can keep our kids in school. chuck, my kids' school does universal masking and combined two kids have missed one day of in-person class this entire year. my state legislature has stripped me of the authority to

put out those orders statewide. and you know, when necessary, i've been willing to do it. to have the political courage, knowing that this isn't about personal popularity. it's about life versus death, and we're elected to make these tough decisions. it's unfortunate that i don't have that ability anymore, but i will take every tool i have to protect our people. >> speaking of tools in your tool box. if roe v. wade is overturned, kentucky is one of the states with a trigger law. it's overturned that day, all abortions are banned in the state of kentucky. what do you do? >> well, as a former prosecutor and the state's top prosecutor, i saw the toughest of the toughest cases. rape, incest, human trafficking, and kentucky's law would eliminate any choice, any options for those most victimized people in our society. i believe that's wrong. and i believe even most of the

people in kentucky believe that's wrong. so i would hope we would see a change, but i would certainly veto anything that doesn't provide options in the very least for those individuals. >> forget veto, do you think there's an opportunity to at least prepare in case the trigger law to add those exceptions in? do you think you can get that through your legislature or is our politics too polarized in this moment? >> our politics is pretty polarized both in d.c. and here in frankfort, kentucky. where often times reason and nuance can't find a foothold to be communicated to the public and to each other. but whether it's what's going on in d.c. right now, we're not elected to be democrats or republicans. our oath of office doesn't have anything to do with our party. it has to do with our states and our country. so it's still my hope, even in these times, that we can show up, be adults, do our jobs, be

able to have difficult conversations, and at least look out for those that have been horribly traumatized and injured by acts of violence. >> governor, not an easy time to be a governor these days considering everything that's going on. appreciate you spending a few minutes with us. thank you, sir. >> thank you. up next, we're going to talk to one of the country's top public health experts about what we can expect in the coming weeks as more cases of omicron are identified and as millions of americans travel for the holidays. is this a mistake? you're watching "meet the press daily". protects differently. with two rapiddry layers. for strong protection, that's always discreet. question your protection. try always discreet. ♪ limu emu... & doug ♪ ♪ superpowers from a spider bite? i could use some help showing the world how liberty mutual customizes their car insurance so they only pay for what they need.

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welcome back. it's been one week since omicron was classified as a variant of concern and experts looked at it. omicron is in six u.s. states and south aftercan where the varpt was first identified daily cases have nearly tripled in a few days. they say omicron is on track to outpace the delta variant as the dominant strain. our cdc director assured americans the u.s. is prepared to take omicron head on and reminded folks that delta still accounts for 99% of u.s. cases. joining me now, an expert, the dean of brown university school of public health.

doctor, this morning on our morning call, we are all sort of asking ourselves this question. we have a variant of concern. we saw the news out of south africa. we see already what delta is doing to the northern tier. and we're wondering why are more americans going to travel in the next four weeks than at any time in the last three years? how much trouble are we head for the in january? >> yeah. chuck, first, thanks for having me back. this is the really big question in front of us. we are in a precarious moment, a difficult moment where we have a lot of infections in the northern half of the country. that's all before omicron had much of a foothold. we don't know enough about omicron to know if it's going to dispel delta, but if we were speaking a week ago, i would say we're in for tough winter holidays. i do believe if you're fully vaccinated and boosted and you're going and traveling with family and friends who are fully

vaccinated and boosted, there's a way to do it safely. not everybody is being as careful as should be, and therefore, i think we've got some challenging sort of couple of months ahead in terms of infections, hospitalizations and deaths. >> all right. do some basic advice to people watching, wondering about traveling. if you were traveling to florida, a place that is well known for being not as well vaccinated as much in the northeast, but your family is fully vaccinated and everybody who can be boosted has been boosted, could you travel? >> i would. here's why. traveling itself, the actual act of traveling, getting on an airplane, you know, if you're wearing a good mask, you're doing the basic stuff, pretty safe. we have not seen a ton of spread on airplanes or in airports. and if you go to a place like florida, if you're hanging out with other vaccinated people, spending time outdoors, reasonably safe as of now. obviously things can change with omicron, but right now based on everything we have, i think it's

a reasonable thing to do. >> let's flip the script. you live in florida. you're visiting your relative in the northeast right now. what kind of advice would you give folks? >> yeah. my mother-in-law lives in florida. she's going to come visit us over the holidays, and so it's personal. i've been thinking about this. she's vaccinated and boosted. our family, everybody who can be vaccinated is. and what i would say is the same thing. during the travel act itself, wear a good-quality mask. do the basic stuff, and then i think right now, again, domestic travel, we're not seeing much spread from the act of travel itself. i think it's a reasonable thing to do this holiday season. >> all right. i want to ask about your profession. another hospital surge in, say, january, february, where frankly, i know you're looking at this. it seems inevitable that we're going to do this. are our hospital -- is it going to hold up? do we have enough staff to

handle this? what is your level of concern on that front? >> my level of concern is very, very high. i am really worried about hospitals across america for several reasons. one is we're seeing more flu this year than last year. in nonpandemic times flu always pushes our hospitals. throw in covid which is surging across the country. still largely among unvaccinated people. that's where it's getting infected. and then, obviously, there's the child card here of omicron and what is it going to do? and then 20 months of fatigue, exhaustion, i am very worried about our health care system over the next few weeks and few months. and i don't know how much more it can handle. >> is there something the biden administration should be thinking about here? is it perhaps thinking about national guard -- national guard medical teams, maybe from the military? i mean, is there some sort of disaster type prep that needs to happen now in case the worst case scenario that i think you are thinking here happens?

>> yeah. i think they are starting to do that. and i think they need to absolutely be doing that. in the surge we're seeing in michigan right now, i think we are sending in extra help. obviously the -- for the federal government it is the national guard, the military. but you know, once you're having to deploy that in any kind of extensive way in multiple places across the country, you're in tough shape. we need to start coming up with contingency plans. we got to get through this period. >> i know. and we keep thinking just one more. get one more wave and get through this, and then here comes another. doctor, always a pleasure to get your expertise. thank you. >> thank you. coming up the actions and inactions that led the michigan prosecutor to file charges against the parents of a high school shooting suspect. ethan crumbley. you're watching "meet the press daily". daily" with rybelsus®.

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welcome back. breaking news this afternoon out of the detroit area suburb where four students were killed in a school shooting. the prosecutor announced the state is going to charge james and jennifer crumbley, the parents of the shooter with four counts of involuntary manslaughter each after the shooting left four students dead and seven injured. they said the parents bought the gun their t son used in their classrooms and did nothing to prevent the shooting. >> i want to be really clear. these charges are intend to hold the individuals who contributed to this tragedy accountable and also send a message. that gun owners have a responsibility. when they fail to up hold that responsibility, there are serious and criminal consequences. as we work together to honor the lives lost in all of those impacted by the evil acts this week, justice for the victims

and their families is at the forefront of today's announcement. these charges come two days after the shooter, a 15-year-old student at the school was charged on 25 24 counts as an adult. shaquille brewster is in michigan. shaq, it is -- i'll be honest, these charges against the parents, the role the parents played and did not play in this seem to be i guess more consequential than i think any of us thought at first. >> that's exactly right. we got a real clear sense of the timeline of the days ahead of this shooting. starting with a week ago today when the gun was purchased by the father and suspected shooter and later described as a christmas gift. and then we already knew there were two different teachers inside that school that raised different flags. raised a r warnings because of what they described as

disturbing behavior. we got a sense of what the behavior was. the day before the shooting, the shooter was suspected of looking up and -- on his cell phone, trying to buy ammunition, and then there was the text message the prosecutor described from the mother where the mother says i'm not mad at you. you just have to work at not getting caught. and then the morning of the shooting, there was the image, that graphic image with a bullet on it with this kid saying that he needs help. and that it had blood. i depicted a shooting happening, and that eventually did happen. several hours later when the shooting happened that afternoon. you know, this is one thing we heard from the prosecutors when she said that it was emotional for her. this is something she's taking seriously. listen to how she put that in the press conference earlier today. >> this doesn't just impact me as a prosecutor and a lawyer. it impacts me as a mother. the notion that a parent could read those words and also know that their son had access to a

deadly weapon, that they gave him is unconscionable. i think it's criminal. >> reporter: one other point she made is she said she doesn't believe that that student should have gone back to the class room after the graphic image was found and discovered. and there is the meeting between administrators, the parents and that student. but i mean, it's definitely some disturbing details we learned about what happened in the days ahead of the shooting. >> yeah. and i think it's how aware, perhaps, the parents were of the potential behavior, too, is what became so shocking to so many folks. shaq, thanks very much. before we go to break, we just got word from the white house that president biden has signed into law the continuing resolution to fund the government through february 18th th. we look forward to all the shenanigans on february 17th about trying to keep the government open. coming up, 2022 news. dr. oz is on tv in a whole new

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welcome back. the u.s. and our allies are growing increasingly concerned about a potential russian invasion of ukraine and the white house says president biden may discuss those concerns directly with vladimir putin. secretary of state tony blinken says biden and putin are likely to speak on the situation in the future as russia continues to mass troops along the border with ukraine. he warned sergey lavrov that any russian aggression toward ukraine would meet with serious consequences. >> including high impact economic measures that we've refrained from taking in the past. i think moscow knows very well the universe of what's possible. >> i'm joined now by ambassador bill taylor who served as the u.s. ambassador to ukraine

during the george w. bush administration, now the vice president of the u.s. institute of peace. ambassador taylor, welcome. >> thank you, good to be here. >> in hearing secretary blinken say what he said about putin and those sanctions and there's going to be severe consequences, eight years ago he did go into ukraine. eight years ago he grabbed a piece of ukraine. and i remember a previous u.s. president saying there were going to be consequences and it didn't seem to work because here we are again. what is there left that we can do, short of military, that could make russia back off? >> first of all, those sanctions that we put on 7 1/2 years ago may have deterred further incursion at that time, number one. >> okay. >> number two, there are more sanctions. and secretary blinken talked about harsh sanctions that we haven't seen before. >> give me an example of one. >> an example of one would be to cut them off from financial transactions around the world, the so-called swift banking

system. >> something that we did to iran. >> something that we did to iran. but iran of course is not as connected to the world economy as russia is now. so this would have a major effect on the russians. number two, putin really wants to have this pipeline going from russia to germany with natural gas, nord stream 2 pipeline. if president putin were to invade, that would be gone, clearly. >> president biden has indicated he's not -- even though there's a bunch of senators who would like to force him to stop supporting it, he's not getting in the way of it because germany wants it, right? >> most of germany wants it. it's not clear that the new german foreign minister wants it. the greens opposed this. >> merkel wanted it. >> she accepted it, she didn't block it, but she apparently wanted it, right. >> so what does he want out of this if he doesn't want ukraine? i mean, we know what he does, he would prefer ukraine back in his

power, i get that, but short of that, what does he want out of this? off-camera we were saying, he did this six months ago, he got a summit with biden, and then he backed off. is it that simple? >> it's probably not that simple. i think it's something you said a minute ago, which is, ukraine for him is important in his soul, if he has one. president biden doesn't think he has a soul, as we know. but if he has one, ukraine has this attraction for him. ukraine is where the christian/slavic civilization came from. there is this question about -- and there have been discussions today that there could be a phone call maybe next week to have this conversation. we do remember that the last time president putin massed these troops back in march and april, one of the things that may have stopped him from invading at that time was this

promise of a phone call and he backed down or he pulled at least some of his troops off of the border. so there are a couple of short term things and probably some longer term things. >> let me ask you this. is he looking for a reason to do it, though, this time? i say this because he seemed to -- the equivalent of, here he is, amassing these troops, and it's like, and if anybody -- and if you, ukraine, even close your fist, you've crossed my red line. that sounds like a guy who wants to invade. >> he does want to give the impression that he wants to invade. and you're right too, he could provoke, he could cause a provocation that he would blame on the ukrainians. but the other side of that, chuck, is that it would be very bloody. the ukrainian military is much stronger, better equipped, better trained, higher morale, than it was seven years ago. it's better led. it has better equipment. it has weapons that we've provided. >> what would nato be doing

under a situation like this? >> nato would probably follow the lead nation, that is the united states, in providing additional equipment, training, weapons. >> intelligence, things like that. >> intelligence sharing, absolutely. there could be some real effect. >> you know, putin -- i worry that we've not given him consequences. he messed with georgia, not a lot of consequences. he took crimea, not a lot of consequences. a part of me looks at this and says, you know, he'll just keep doing this. it keeps bearing fruit. the fish keep biting the bait. it keeps working. how do you prevent this? >> you're absolutely right. if we do nothing, if we allow this, if we kind of back down, there have been some suggestions in this city of kind of caving in or conceding. >> it's hard to sell the american public that we should go to war for ukraine. >> and we shouldn't go to war. that's not what we're talking about. we're talking about putting up a

very strong defense, deter him from going in. and the economic sanctions that we talked about, skeptical or not, they have an effect. the nord stream pipeline, he wants. the recognition from president biden, he wants. he needs to be deterred. or he'll do exactly what you said, he'll keep going. >> is there anything in the energy sector, when we, by the way, have an issue right now globally, where if he were brought in, he might then see that as, oh, i'm being respected around the world and my help has been needed and that would somehow get him to back off? >> what might get him to back off is a conversation about security. he keeps saying he's worried about ukraine invading him or nato invading him. no. but he does have this concern, he says, about european security. we could talk about that with him. we could talk about that. maybe at artificial levels. if that were to get the conversation going, that would be worth it. >> he still has domestic problems, right?

he's still got a domestic problem and he still has covid issues. putin watchers say he's doing this to distract the public from his own problems. >> he does have domestic problems. he's been in power for a long time. i'm not an expert on the russian people, but there are strong reports, clear reports, credible reports, that the russians are getting tired of this. he's been in there -- he's getting older. he does have the domestic problems that you said, the covid is a serious problem, the economics is a problem for him. he raised the pension age, the russian people hated that. he's got serious domestic problems. >> how is president zelenskiy's standing with the public? >> he's still the most popular person in ukraine. he was elected, as you recall, with 73%. he doesn't have that now, he doesn't have 73%, but no one else has more support than he does. he so far is standing up to president putin.

i think there were concerns that he might not. >> ambassador taylor, good to see you, thank you for coming in. thank you all for being with us this hour, this week. we'll see you on "meet the press" on your local nbc station. msnbc coverage conditions with katy tur. we're going to start this hour with breaking news out of michigan. the parents of alleged school sheeter ethan crumbley now charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter each. james and jennifer crumbley, seen here on zoom at their son's arraignment, could face 15 years per count. the prosecutor, karen mcdonald, said there were warning signs and that the parents should have or did know. videos where the alleged shooter showed off a 9 millimeter, called it his new beauty, searching ammunition on his phone at