and this is the basement slash panic room. maybe what your family needs is a vacation home slash vacation home. find yours on the vrbo app. ♪♪ ♪♪ hey, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york city. i'm john heilemann in for nicolle wallace for the fourth and final time this week. we come on the air with breaking news. kim potter, the former brooklyn center minnesota, police officer who fatally shot 20-year-old daunte wright during a traffic stop in april has been found guilty of first and second degree manslaughter. he was killed during the trial of george floyd. wright's tragic and senseless death underscoring for many how much work remains to be done even after the nationwide equal

justice protests in the wake of floyd's murder and chauvin's conviction. wright was pulled over because of expired tags on his car and an air freshener hanging from his rearview mirror. in the trial, potter took the stand in her own defense at one point breaking down in tears. her attorneys admitted she made an honest mistake. but in closing arguments prosecutors characterized it as a quote, blunder of epic proportions and demand accountability. now potter has been found guilty. she has been ordered held without bail. the judge saying that potter cannot be treated any differently than any other defendant found guilty on such charges n. a press conference after the verdict, minnesota's attorney general keith ellison

said, quote. all of us missed out on what dawn day could have been and added this. >> we have a degree of accountability for daunte's death. accountability is not justice. justice is restoration. justice would be restoring him to life and making the wright family whole again. justice is beyond the reach that we have in this life for daunte. but accountability is an important step, a critical, necessary step on the road to justice for us all. >> joining us from outside the courthouse in minneapolis is nbc's shaq brewster. also here, melissa murray, law professor and msnbc legal annist and the reverend al sharpton host of msnbc's "politics nation" and president of the national action network. shaq, you have been covering this case from start to finish and spent a lot of time in and around minneapolis during these

last tough couple years in that city for many of the residents. give us an idea of the inside of that courtroom today after the verdict came back. what was it like in the room when the verdicts were rendered? >> well yeah, 27 hours this jury was tucked away this the private, going through those deliberations. you know, that happened over the course of four days in a trial that lasted a week and a half in terms of the testimony. and it was a very serious moment in there. you saw emotion from cady bryant, the mother of the 20-year-old, dawn day wright, a woman who was also the first witness that was called by the prosecution who was on the phone with her son minutes before, seconds before kim potter shot him with that one bullet to the chest. outside the courtroom, you had a slightly different scene. there was an immediate uproar, people cheering when they heard the first guilty verdict. the cheer repeating itself when they heard the second guilty

verdict for the second-degreem. many people were here. they have faded out. they have gone to start marching. many people told me about the surprise they had, they were doubtful, not just because of the time the jury took to deliberate but because of what they saw over the course of the trial how the defense said that dawn day wright was responsible for his own death, talked about his marijuana use and said he set his own conditions for thinks death. but jury rejecting that. and you saw the celebration in that outside the courtroom. just minutes ago we heard from the family, from the mother of daunte wright, we heard from their attorneys. they were also celebrating the verdict. they were thanking the people who have been out here -- it has been cold throughout the course this trial and there have been a handful of people who have been out here on this courthouse in this park here every day, sitting down in the snow at some times, sitting down calling for

justice. and you heard the parents thank toes protesters, thank the demonstrators for the support they felt from inside the courthouse. it is an emotional time here in minneapolis. people are celebrating. they are also acknowledging what you just heard from the attorney general, that justice would be bringing daunte wright back. as we head into this christmas day, you have a parent, a father and a mother who won't have their 20-year-old at the christmas table this with them. >> the country was on edge as we waited for the verdict during the chauvin trial. my sense is that for a variety of reasons, there was interest in this case and people felt there was a lot at stake but there wasn't that same feeling out there in minnesota. >> 100%. >> give me a sense of how stressed, whether this verdict had gone the other way, that

there might have been some tree of turmoil on the streets of minnesota, if that's the case. give us the sense of how much the tender hooks were on in the city of minneapolis? >> you make good point. i think you are correct in your view of this in that, yes, this was not as high-profile as the death of george floyd and then the derek chauvin trial and later conviction. i tell you, this is the actual courthouse. back then, in april, the week that dawn day wright was killed there was fencing rounds surrounding the courthouse. on both ends of the courthouse you saw military vehicles. the national guard fully deployed and ready, a strong police force. that is not what you saw throughout this trial. people i talked to after the verdict they said this is something they were watching, they were looking at head looids but it is not something they were watching every moment of. they didn't see every bit of testimony but they were paying attention because they wanted to see some level of

accountability. you heard -- that level of tension that you felt back in april, it simply wasn't the case this time around. but you also had a similar level of doubt. so many people, again, saying, when i asked them what is your initial reaction, telling me it's surprise. they were surprised that that verdict came, surprised it was two counts of guilty. that's because they felt doubt in the system, doubt there was going to be a jury of kim potter's peers, nine whites, two asians and one black. the jury was able to convict kim potter on both of those manslaughter cases -- or cases. but i tell you, many of them were happy that they were wrong? rev, you know this family, the wright family. you delivered thethe eulogy at wright's funeral. he was told that minihad not seen a funeral procession so

large since prince when he died in 2016. quote, mr. sharpton added, he was a prince in -- and all of minneapolis has stopped today to honor the prince of brooklyn center. i want to get your reaction today and what you think it means going forward for cases like this. >> well, my reaction is guardedly very happy. that we saw justice happening for the party. i have been talking and praying with them on the phone because we have been staying on the east coast to take care of the voting rights negotiations. but representatives of the national action network b has been with them throughout the trial. what i think you pointed out was very important. we were in the summation of the derek chauvin trial around the murder of george floyd when this happened.

i remember being in the courtroom with george floyd's family, and they said that a policemen just ten miles from the courthouse in minneapolis just killed a 20-year-old unarmed man. and that is how we ended up with the attorney ben crump, went out there, ut got involved, i did the eulogy, some rallies for them, and the family is then close. i think what it does mean we are beginning to see we can win cases even with a majority white jury. don't forget, there were 11 whites on the jury in brunswick, georgia. >> yes. >> they looked past color and went for justice. nine whites on this jury. but we do not, in my opinion, do ourselves well to keep going trial by trial. we need laws. we need the george floyd law. we need laws so that every trial we are not feeling like we are sitting at the edge of our seats or like we are playing russian

roulette, but that we know the system works. but i congratulate this jury. and i point out these are majority white jurors that are looking at justice. my last point on that, though, is let us not forget, this family is going to go through their first christmas without daunte. with all of the joy that many of us have that the jury did the right thing that mother and that father will be looking at an empty chair in less than 48 hours on christmas. and daunte's son and the mother of his child is going to have to explain to that kid growing why his father is not there. so i think keith ellison is right, this is not -- it is important, it is good it happen, but it does not return the life of this young man that i believe should have never been killed. >> in a just world, rev, he would still be alive. melissa, in the ahmaud arbery case there was an all white jury, we have another case here,

seven might men, four white woman, two asian, and one black woman. no black men on this jury. i want to play this from wright's mother. and then i want to talk about how we ended up where we ended up. listen to this first. >> the moment we heard guilty on manslaughter one, emotions. every emotion you could ever imagine. i let out a yelp because it was an anticipation of what we were thinking would come in the last few days. now we are able to process it. >> as shaq said and a as you could see in that sound people were surprised by this. i thought legal analysts were surprised too, not because of the jury's composition or how

long they deliberated but what they saw in the courtroom, they weren't convinced that the defense made its case. i want you to comment on that. >> you can count me as one of the legal analysts who is surprised by these two verdicts on these two charges. the state always has an uphill battle with these cases, especially when the defendant is a police officer. here the state had to prove these charges beyond a reasonable doubt. the defense could step in and actually turn some of the witness testimony into testimony that was actually to kim potter's advantage. a number of her police officers noted what she had done was in their view in keeping with what was necessary for the circumstances. again a hard case to build. but the prosecution seems to have resonated with this jury in a particular way. as the reverend said this is one

jury, this is not a systemic fix but at least in this one jury of 12 men and women, there were those who said this is an unfortunate and tragic escalation of what should have been a routine traffic stop. >> david henderson on our air not that -- just within the last hour, another legal analyst, esteemed and sharp, said he thought this was an earth-shattering verdict. that was the praise he used in terms of what it is going to mean for police officers moving forward. absolutely a game changer. he was one of those people who had said i am not sure the state has met its burden in proving. he went on to say it was kim potter and her testimony that he thought had proven decisive. he said her testimony was so offensive and ridiculous i found myself despite what i know about the law if i were on this jury i would have changed my mind based on what she had to say.

do you agree with that? >> i think it is remarkable she took the stand in other own defense. she broke down many times while doing so. that kinds of show of emotion can often be empowering for the witness and can resonate with the jury. we saw this in the kyle rittenhouse case for example. here it seems it actually opened her up to more interrogation more investigation, and there were many moments when the prosecution were able to note inconsistency in the testimony on the stand and earlier testimony she had given. i agree, this was an earth-shattering verdict one i think that really speaks to the question of whether or not we as a society will tolerate the police using these minuter incidents as opportunities or justification for stepping in to use of deadly force. >> the next same is sentencing. first degree manslaughter, up to ten years, second degree manslaughter, up to 15 years. we have heard the judge say, no,

she's not going to be out on her own recognizance while we wait for sentencing. we are going to keep her locked up. taking a tough line. i am curious, does the maximum sentence have to fall here for you to feel as though accountability, putting justice aside, accountability has been brought to bear, sore is there a lesser sentence that you would find and that you think the community would find acceptable in this case? >> i think you would have to give the maximum to this officer. she has been convicted on both counts. and she gave the maximum to daunte wright. daunte wright is dead. and there is no way of minimizing what he suffered. and there is no reason he is dead. and i think that when he hear -- and i agree with melissa -- that some of the inconsistencies in

her testimony. one lawyer that works with us at national action network said to me he thinks she hurt herself in the testimony by being so emotional. it also could have said to the jury, if you are that emotional, maybe you were using emotion and not law when you killed daunte. >> right. >> so the jurors will speak for themselves. the judge must enforce the launch i think the law is, she must have a sentence that equals the crime. she took a life. and she should face the maximum, particularly since it is law enforcement. this is not a civilian. >> right. >> this is somebody enforcing the law. and they should be able, in my opinion, to be subject to the maximum of what the law calls. >> melissa, last question to you, what we heard from keith ellison is that the most important thing in terms of sentencing is going to be the victim impact statement. talk about what that statement is, what's in it, and why it matters so much. >> first, it's important to

recognize here that minnesota is a determinant jurisdiction in terms of sentencing which is to say that they have a framework by which he they look at the offender's criminal history. here it would be zero for kim potter and look at the severity of the offense as they come together and determine the range. here the range for kim potter who has no criminal history would be around seven years. it is unlikely she will get the top charge, 15 years. but victim impact statements are going to be important because the prosecutors indicated they are going to seek an aggregated sentence and accelerate that sentence because of certain attributes in this crime. the victim impact statements will be statements from dante write's loved ones, his mother, father, the mother of his child all testifying what this loss means to them in their lives and that will be weighed by the june as well in taking this sentence into account. >> that's super helpful to understanding what is about to help next.

melissa, rev al, i never like to have you guys on here on occasions when we have things of this weight before us. but i think you guys both agree that, again, maybe justice hasn't been done, but the first step towards accountability has been brought. thank you for coming here and helping us understand it better. shaq brewster, thank you for reporting for us and bearing up with that cold to bring us the picture from inside the courtroom. when we come back, we will explore the covid crisis and the extremely frustrated white house, the president maintaining we are better off than we were a year ago even though it sometimes doesn't feel that way. do note freak out, but both joe biden and donald trump today telegraphing their intentions around 2024. we will talk about their carefully worded language and what the political landscape could look like as we head towards the next presidential election. later in the program, almost a year after the capitol hill

insurrection, the former president is taking his fight to thwart the investigation into that day to the highest court in the land. but the committee marches on, seeking to hold those responsible for january 6th to account. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after this. do not go anywhere. this do noto ganywhere [ echoing ] some of us were born for this. to protect people. to help them save. with a home and auto bundle from progressive. ahh. i was born for this. and now it's prime time. cut. jamie, what are you doing? you're not even in this one. i thought it was thursday. sorry. -it is. -i thought -- i thought it was last thursday.

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'twas two days before christmas, and the covid testing crisis in this country is looming larger than ever thanks to soaring case counts and americans scrambling for covid tests in hopes of taking a little extra precaution during seeing family and friends over

these holidays. the fact that so many people are frustrated by situation witness the testing is not lost on the the white house n. an interview on wednesday, president biden acknowledged the issues with access to at-home covid tests while still defending his administration's response to the pandemic. >> nothing has been good enough. but, look, look where we are. when last christmas we were in a situation where we had significantly fewer vaccinated -- people vaccinated, emergency rooms were filled. you had serious backups in hospitals that were causing great difficulties. we are in a situation now where we have 200 million people fully vaccinated, 200 million people fully vaccinated. we have more than that who have had at least one shot. and they are getting these booster shots as well. >> the president also taught touted the administration's plan to make available 500 million at home covid tests to americans who want one free of charge.

the new reporting suggests the administration may be weeks away from getting those. mr. biden's administration has not yet sign to buy those tests ask. the website won't be available and open until wednesday. all this as the omicron surge is spiking dramatically right now. the variant has been detected in all 50, responsible for nearly all new infections in the country. the number of new cases has topped 200,000 in the last three days bringing us to numbers we have not seen since the peak of the delta surge this past summer. in florida, cases are up 335% in just the past two weeks n. washington, d.c., 81-year-old house majority whip jim clyburn is just the latest of a growing misof members of congress who

announced they have covid. he says it took him 56 hours to get his test results. and that is one of the most powerful men in the united states congress. let's bring in shannon petty piece, senior white house reporter for nbc news digital. also david jolly, and dr. peter hotez, codirector of the center for vaccine development at texas children's hospital and dean of the school of tropical medicine at -- college. doctor, i have kd this question all week. i will ask you this bluntly. how bad are things? how freaked out should we be? >> we should never freak out. but there are red flags out there. the number of case is accelerating more dramatically than anything we have seen before. and we are going to top all records in terms of number of new cases. in that sense -- in new york and new york city, washington, d.c.,

other parts of the country are in an omicron firestorm. here are the vulnerables. first of all, i think there is a narrative out there, happy talk that covid omicron is less severe than previous lineages. we don't really know that. part of the reason i say that is both in south africa and the uk, what happened there is omicron dove tailed right on their delta wave. as a consequence, most of those or a lot of those omicron infections were actually reinfections. so it may have given the illusion that it was less severe. but i don't really know that yet. so i am really concerned that now that we are starting to see hospitalizations increase in new york and washington and elsewhere where we are seeing these big surges and on top of that we have the vulnerability and the fact that so many of our health care workers are now getting breakthrough covid. not so much that they are sick enough to be admitted to the

hospital but they are being knocked out of the work force because they are at home. also the fact that paxlovid won't be here in time, testing won't be here in time and the fact that two out of our three monoclonal antibodies simply don't work against the omicron variant. there are a lot of concerns that i have. we have got to take more aggressive measures to keep our health care work force in the work force. >> well, that's not exactly have a holly jol christmas there, doctor. but i think it's -- you know, we are always for the bracing truth here and hearing it from people with your standing and credibility. shannon, that is also something the white house doesn't want the hear. the biden administration yesterday gave more ground yesterday with david muir in acknowledging some of the short falls. how tough a pill is that for the white house to swallow, so to speak, maybe not using the right metaphor here.

as they have been insistent they have done the best they can do and now suddenly in the face of many of the things we have talked about already, we will talk about more, they seem to be acknowledging that message was not always falling on skeptical ears across the political spectrum. >> well n the first half of this first year of biden's presidency, getting the pandemic under control, getting the vaccine out there, you know, that was the keystone to their argument they were making about how president biden was showing that the government could work for people again, that he was showing people that we were going to put the worst behind us and the best days ahead of us -- were ahead of us. it was freedom from the pandemic. it was defeating the virus. and that was what was driving those really high approval numbers we saw in the early days of his presidency. since august when we really first saw that surge in florida driven by delta, those numbers obviously have come way down,

about half of people approve of how he has been handling the pandemic. the other half don't, obviously. i know this is a point that dr. haute easy and others seem to be making the administration seems to be in catch-up mode for months now instead of in the early days when it appeared they were ahead of things and they were in charge. now it really feels to a lot of public health experts, at least like the virus is in charge and the administration is always one step behind. of course to this point about testing, 500 million tests, obviously that's an enormous amount of tests to be getting out to the public. it is going to come from a website that is not yet available, as you just noted. we are not even necessarily sure the candidates companies have capacity to produce these tests at least in the coming months. and you know, it's an idea that has been talked about for weeks if not months now, in a the administration is now only

embracing. -- that the administration is now only embracing. we talked about the pills today from pfizer and merck. a lot of the effectiveness of those pills is based on getting diagnosed quickly. the testing issue is front and center. they have to tackle it and so much of getting this pandemic under control is dependent on that. >> david, we had aaron sorkin on the show yesterday. when i asked him what he thought about how joe biden was doing and how well he thinks he has handled covid, he said he's not donald trump, and so i'm all good. and all the people said amen, trump was so horrible, so incompetent, so malign, so corrupt in herms of how he dealt with covid we could all agree, joe biden is better than donald trump. and in all honesty, despite all

the lives still being lost he is a welcome contrast to the likes of donald trump. how much time does that buy him going forward as we stare into the face of what could be a very ugly winter around covid if the doctor and others are to be believed. [ indiscernible ] >> david, we lost -- we are losing david jolly. we will hopefully get him back. i will hold that question. i want to get back to you, doctor, and play andy slavitt who was a key player in the administration's covid response earlier in this year. he was in planning sessions a few months ago, and he said no one could have -- no one this the white house predicted what was coming. let's listen to andy slavitt talk about this. and then we will hear what you have to say about it on the other side. participated in one of those calls in october where they were trying to get a sense for how

many at-home tests would people need? how many -- what would the demand look like in and i have gathered about eight or ten experts on a call. and not one of them predicted we would be in the situation where we would see the number of cases doubling every two to three days. if that happens, you run short of just about everything. the other side of that is that does mean it's likely to get over more quickly. a very tough period as you say for hospital workers, very tough in terms of getting access to certain things. but also very hard to plan for. >> doctor hotez, very hard to plan for. i am curious your reaction to hearing him saying that. very hard to plan for. but i can recall interviews over the last six months where people raised the possibility of more

variants. the issue was raised. what is your take? >> it is really not the president's fault that he's had 200,000 americans who needlessly lost their lives because we were defiant of getting vaccines. they refused vaccines. i mean, that is clearly the fault of the aggression coming from the far right from members of the congress, conservative news outlets, the far-right think tanks. they helped create that monster. but the one piece that is -- i don't want to say disingenuous, that would be unfair to andy. but the piece that's not being said is a number of us pleaded with the white house and federal agencies to help vaccinate the world. because the alpha variant arose out of the unvaccinated uk. the delta variant out of the unvaccinated indian continent. then nothing was being done to

vaccinate africa, what do you think is going to happen? then the omicron variant came out of southern africa. we were doing one-on-one negotiations with india and indonesia because we really couldn't engage the white house in vaccinating the southern hemisphere. so that part, i think, was a failing. >> david, you are back, i believe, and i want to go back to the question i asked you, which is how much more runway, how much more time does joe biden have where not being donald trump on covid is enough politically? >> none. because this is now joe biden's presidency, and the pandemic continues. it is at the forefront of every voter's mind. not just the public health implication ofity, but schools and workplace, and the economy. you know, john, you well know presidents don't get to choose their own crisis. this is the crisis that joe biden has inherit. he inherited what donald trump left him, if you will.

and just as a mobilized for the vaccine let's fast forward for a moment here. what the white house needs to do is mobilize the national guard and federal resources to stand up pop-up tents for testing all across the country. in a pandemic next to the vaccine, the most important thing people can have is information. the fact that some people have to spend 20, 30, $40 for at-home tests if they can finds them or wait two or three months for the federal government to provide a supply chain. forget about it. mobilize, stands up pop-up tents for testing. get information. at least if we are asking people to behave responsely when it comes to how they handle a positive covid test let's make sure they can get that test. that's the crisis that joe biden faces. there is a lot more he can be doing on this. i agree, far better than donald trump, but that doesn't mean that joe biden can always blame the other guy. has his presidency, his moment. >> david jolly sticks around.

we will turn to politics. president biden saying his health, his fate, and one man named donald trump will all help guide him on his decision whether he will run again or not in just a couple of years. we will be hearing from him, how he thinks about all of this. that's coming up next. rs balance risk and reward, i see one element securing portfolios, time after time. gold. your strategic advantage.

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i want to ask you about something i asked weeks before

the election when we sat down. you said you would absolutely serve eight years if elected. do you plan to run for re-election? >> yes. but, look, i'm a great renter of fate. fate has intervened if my life many, many times. if i'm in the health i'm in now, if i'm in good health, then, in fact i would run again. >> if that means a rematch against donald trump? >> you are trying to tempt me now. sure. why would i not run against donald trump as the nominee. that would increase the prospect of running. >> president biden sounding bullish on the prospect of running for re-election in 2024 and the idea of facing off against donald trump again. questions swirled over biden would run one more time. after all he turns 82 in 2024 w. the mid terms on deck next year the horse race that will become the presidential election gets going before you know it. meanwhile everyone in the world assumes that donald trump is considering another run. and you know, he doesn't do

anything to deny it. but he still says he hasn't made a final decision. even though the signs are out there. trump came out publicly again this morning endorsing vaccines in an interview with conservative commentator candace owens. that's a notable sign in some people's view. he started a trend of advocating for these vaccines despite a republican base that's incredibly skeptical and recently booed trump at an event where the former president admitted to getting a booster shop. we are back with the reverend al and david jolly. rev, you talk to the white house all the time. you are a good read on democratic politics. i will give you a piece here. there is a -- you look at where joe biden currently stands, "wall street journal" polls have his rating at 41%. there it is. not horrible. not great. david frum rattles off the case for biden. in 11 months biden has done more

with 50 democrats senators than obama did with 57. he signed the covid relief bill, direct payments, aid to state and local governments. extent of unemployment benefits and subsidies under the affordable care act. infrastructure bill, kput executive orders. and judges. what's is your sense of this juncture between all of those accomplishments and a 41% approval rating and what you think of the reality of biden's continued absolute bullishness publicly at least that he's going to run again in 2024? >> well, i think that key segments of the base that elected joe biden is reflected in the polling because whereas it is undeniable what has been written in the atlantic about he has some tremendous victories that was done, it is also undeniable that he has not been able to deal with voting rights,

he's not been able to get police reform through. and though it is not singularly his fault, because he cannot make the senate vote, it was his commitment. so that has hurt him in the black community. it has hurt him with some of the actions in the immigration community. the whole question of the haitians under the bridge. so there are key parts of his coalition that that are -- really, many of us are saying you have to do more. i think the best thing that could happen to him is that donald trump run because i think that if donald trump runs, this whole thing of saying that joe biden will be 82 pales when you see that donald trump will be 78. i would rather have an 82-year-old joe biden who has been stable and kind of steady all his life. than can you imagine a donald trump two years older, as wild as he already is?

so all i could do is have a commercial showing old donald trump getting worse and joe biden. there is only a four-year gap there. you are not talking about somebody 60 running against somebody who is 8 2. we are talking about somebody who is 78 who is not considered stage by many of news considered unstable i would say. once you get to 78, 82, let's face it. you are among the older. those are senior citizens. not much distinction between the ages. then the question, are you sane, of sound mind and body? on the sanity and sound mind question, we know who has the advantage there. david, you have got donald trump out there. i want to play a little of this vaccine sound here with trump and candace owens. then we will talk about what you think about a rematch between these two, what it would look like. >> the vaccine is one of the greatest achievements of mankind.

i came up with a vaccine -- with three vaccines. all are very, very good. came up with three of them in less than nine months. it was supposed to take five to 12 years. the ones that get very sick and go to the hospital where the ones that don't take their vaccine. but it's still their choice. and if you take the vaccine, you are protected. look, the results of the vaccine are very good? david, i will say that the normal host of this show, nicolle wallace doesn't like to play donald trump sound more the reasons most of what comes out of his mouth are lies and conspiracy theories. but we will play when he does something like advocating vaccines even when it is in hisself interest because it is good for american. that looks like transparent political maneuvering to me. i ask you, a, do you agree with that. b, what do you think a rematch between these two would look like in 2024? >> john, i think, sometimes the truth lines up with donald trump van hit.

this donald trump saying it's my vaccine, i am the one who started the operation warp speed, i am the reason you have it. so the truth lines up with his vanity. when the lie lines up with it, when he said ten people have covid, it is going to be one, and then zero next week, that also lines up with his vanity. he is on message, but only u.s. because it supports his image. if this ends up a donald trump/joe biden race i agree with reverend that i think it is favorable for joe biden, he wins it i tell you, john, i am glad that biden was clear about this in that interview because it is hard to resist the chattering of whether biden leaves after one term, is it vice president harris, secretary buttegeig or some other democratic governor? we talked about the crisis he faced. the build back better plan polls very well. the voting rights protection plan polls very well. all of these democratic

priorities poll very well. but where voters are right now is needing a president to solve the pandemic and solve inflation. and joe biden has to he deploy all the resources of the federal government towards these two issues. you will always be able to stand in contrast to your republican opponent on universal child care, prepaid community college, universal community community college, paid family leave. all of those issues you can stand in contrast to republicans but you have got to solve these two issues that honestly history laid on your lap that are informing voters rights now. >> reverend al and david jolly are staying with us. when we come back i still have one more question about 2024 i am going to ask in the next block ask. we are going to talk about joe biden's most forceful statement yet about republicans blocking the voting rights legislation. e.

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exception that would allow a way around the senate filibuster rule in order to get election reform legislation on his desk. that was biden's most direct answer on this matter, and it comes amid a new warning that the tidal wave of republican-led states passing voter restriction bills will continue and today, more than 800 faith leaders write this to biden and to senate democrats. quote, we cannot be clearer. you must act now to protect every american's freedom to vote without interference and with confidence their ballots will be counted and honored. passing comprehensive voting rights legislation must be the number one priority of the administration and congress. the reverend al sharpton and david jolly are back with us. rev, you and i have talked about this enough time that i know what you're going to say but this has not been the number one priority of anybody in washington. there have been a few people who have said it is but we haven't seen anything happen. usually the number one priority of an administration or congress, there's some kind of action and we haven't seen very much. is this going to change now that

joe biden has come out very forthrightly and said, i'm ready to change, i'm for changing the filibuster rule in the senate in order to get this through? and apparently is going to make this a cause for himself in the new year. >> it certainly won't hurt, and i think it will help, especially if in the new year, he makes it a priority. many of us in the civil rights leadership have been pressing to him to say this for some time. in meetings with him and with the white house, i was very happy to hear him say this. now, he must continue to make it a priority and put pressure on the members of the democratic party because this is not just an issue for democrats or an issue for blacks, though we are, in the black community, disproportionately impacted. we're looking at republicans and right-wingers as we talk, changing state laws that are really a threat to democracy. when you look at georgia, what

they're actually displacing local county board of elections and putting them in with political appointees, you're talking about the ability to nullify votes. you're talking about the ability to count whatever way you want, decide the victor that you want, which is the death of democracy. i think the president is right to come out. i wish he'd come out earlier, but i'm glad he did come out, because democracy's at stake when we are talking about impeding people's ability to vote and being able to count the vote by people that are particularly partisan and slanted one way. we are seeing unraveling of democracy. >> david, chuck schumer came out earlier this week, wrote a letter to senate democrats on monday and said, you know, senate republicans continue to abuse the filibuster. and prevent the body from considering a bill. the senate will then consider changes to any rules which prevent us from debating and reaching a final conclusion on

important legislation. here's schumer saying, we're going after this in january. you have biden who has resisted a lot of calls to change the filibuster, saying he's now down with this program. do you know, being a student of our actual politics as opposed to our aspirational politics, do you anticipate actually seeing movement on this in january or do you think these are basically talking points and press releases people are putting out and january of 2022 is going to look basically like all of 2021 looked where a fair amount of talk but not a lot of action? >> yeah, here's the real decision, john, that chuck schumer faces. do you bring up a vote, even though you don't have the votes to pass it? there may not be votes in the senate to change the filibuster, nor sufficient votes even within the democratic caucus for the voting rights protection bill. manchin has already issued some objections. i know he met with reverend al on some compromised language, but does schumer bring it up if he doesn't have the votes to undo the filibuster? that's a tough spot for leadership.

what i would say to democrats, and look, i'm partial to the filibuster, i'm partial to any rules that drive consensus but that's not what it does in modern day america and what we know about voters is they don't care about process. they care about results. so to my democratic friends, if these are the priorities upon which biden and democrats ran and promised the base, deliver to the base. don't worry about process. the reward comes from actually doing what you said you were going to do, which is fundamentally protect voting rights across the country. >> guys, i wanted to talk with you, rev, about the -- about how the democratic party and joe biden need desperately to deliver, not just on voting rights but also build back better if they are going to get nonwhite voters enthused enough in 2022 to not get swamped in the midterms. i wanted to talk about that. david, i want to talk with you about ted cruz who, yesterday, in an interview with a 15-year-old, claimed that he is going to be the next republican nominee because he's next in line. i guess that he had to find a

15-year-old journalist who wouldn't laugh in his face and whatever, again, whatever drugs ted cruz is taking, i need some. but we don't have time and we have a hard break here at 5:00. we'll talk about this down the road. reverend al sharpton, david jolly, thank you for spending time with us. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts right after this quick break. line white house" starts right after this quick break. is now a good time for a flare-up? enough, crohn's! for adults with moderate to severe crohn's or ulcerative colitis, stelara® can provide relief, and is the first approved medication to reduce inflammation on and below the surface of the intestine in uc.

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♪♪ as we prepare to mark the new year, we also know that means january 6th is coming, one year since the attack on the capitol. i sat down recently with three of the officers who testified before the american people about being attacked that day, the one

officer trapped in that doorway, and all three of them kept coming back to one word in this interview. they kept saying, accountability. and they told me that means, if it leads right to the very top, we want accountability. do you agree with those officers? >> i think accountability is necessary. look -- >> and that means if it goes right into the administration. >> no matter where it goes. those responsible should be held accountable. >> well, hello again, everyone, and namaste. it is 5:00 in new york city. i'm john heilemann in for nicole wallace for the fourth and final time this week. one-year anniversary of january 6th is rapidly approaching and despite pronouncements like that, we have yet to see anyone but the rioters themselves face consequences for the attack on the united states capitol last january 6th. that's the focus of a new op-ed by three legal experts in "the new york times" who say that the justice department has a responsibility to prevent donald trump and his allies from getting away with inciting an

insurrection. lawrence tribe, donald ayer and dennis aftergut write, attorney general merrick garland's success depends on ensuring that the leaders of the insurrection are fully accountable for their attempt to overthrow the government. he can not do so without an investigation from the top, to those who organized or encouraged the mob to attack the capitol. to begin with, he might focus on mark meadows, steve bannon, rudy giuliani, john eastman, and even donald trump, all of whom were involved in one way or another in the events leading up to the attack. however, all seems quiet on this front over at the doj. curiously. we'll talk about that in a second. but at the same time, the house select committee's investigation of the deadly insurrection looks to be moving swiftly and with force and precision.

the second house member faces a request from the committee this week, congressman jim jordan, responded to the letter he got from the 1/6 committee on fox news, criticized the panel, but also said that his team is still reviewing the request and intends to answer, quote, at some point. as we wait to hear whether jim jordan will cooperate, there's someone who looks not just desperate but like way beyond desperate, wildly desperate, out of control desperate, to hide information from the committee, and that would be, of course, the former president himself. earlier today, donald trump continued his attempts to block the committee from obtaining white house records from the national archives, asking the supreme court to reverse a unanimous ruling from the d.c. circuit court of appeals two weeks ago which rejected, soundly, his claims of executive privilege. and just now, we're learning that the 1/6 select committee asked the supreme court to act quickly on trump's appeal.

lawyers saying that moving quickly is warranted because of the indisputable importance and urgency of the select committee's investigation. the efforts under way to hold those responsible for january 6th to account is where we begin this hour. joining us now, neal katyal, former acting u.s. solicitor general, now a georgetown law professor, msnbc contributor and quite adept downhill skier. also with us, mike murphy, codirector of usc center for the political future and kurt anderson, the cocreator and host as well as an author of countless books, most recently, "evil geniuses." good to see you. thank you for coming off the slopes again to see us. i know you're bummed we didn't get to talk at 4:20, which was our original plan, but i ask you, the -- assess the legal merits of what the president is trying to accomplish here and what the likely outcome of those efforts are.

>> okay, so, donald trump today went to the supreme court and said, protect my executive privilege. i'm not going to turn over these documents, this information, and the like. he has been soundly rejected in that claim by our nation's second highest highest court, t circuit in a 68-page opinion. he's asking the supreme court to reverse that and hear his case. it's a weak filing at best, john, and i don't think the u.s. supreme court will hear his case. you don't have to. ordinarily, a request by a former president, they will. but this one is really weak. the petition is -- swings big. it says congress has ill intentions because representative schiff went on late night tv once, and it's -- these are the same arguments that were made before in the court of appeals so i don't think it's going anywhere, and there's one very striking thing in this petition that donald trump has filed. he says, quote, he is more than an ordinary citizen. and should get special rights. and you know, that's the thing about living in a democracy.

once you're out of office, once you're not the president, you're an ordinary citizen, and for every president before trump, except perhaps richard nixon, they understood that. and so, at stake in this is not just the documents, the 800 pages or so that congress is trying to get. it's also a really simple and important constitutional principle. is president trump somehow better than the rest of us? does he now not have to tell the truth to congress and tell his minions not to tell the truth to congress? that is pretty much the opposite of the constitutional system we have. >> kurt, back in the day, you and graden carter at spy magazine, you thought donald trump was more than an ordinary citizen too. you named him the short-fingered vulgarian. now it seems he's a short-fingered vulgarian ex-president. how does this play to the ordinary american citizen to watch donald trump furiously scrambling over and over again to make sure that information that a lot of people would be interested in seeing doesn't

ever see the light of day? >> i expect it's different than when he was president. i think people do grant a president and his followers, certainly, and his supporters, certain, you know, presidential set of rights and, oh, you're just bothering him. i think this is probably different. now the question about his desperation, it looks desperate, you're right, is how much can we infer from that apparent desperation to keep this secret? and that's really the question of all these guys. i mean, in the case of scott perry, we talked about the other day, who said, i'm not giving you anything, the congressman from pennsylvania, it suggests that, like, there must be something there, whereas with jim jordan, the last 24 hours, he says, i'm thinking about it. you think, well, perhaps he's not as guilty. so, since we don't know what the various subpoenaed materials

would depict in any of those cases, we can only infer, and as you say, with donald trump, it looks bad. i mean, why would he spend the time to go to this, you know, as neal said, carry on this incredibly unusually weak case if he didn't care deeply about what might be dug up. >> mike, you've run a lot of campaigns in your day, and a fair number of them, i know, as they come down to the wire, you find yourself employing a run out the clock strategy, so what donald trump and his minions are doing right now must be familiar to you in the political context. i'm curious about whether you think that we could all keep all kinds of scorn and mockery on this, but in fact, that there's some sense to it if you think that, as i think you do, republicans are likely to take control of one house or more or two in the midterm elections, is this a strategy that actually, you know, is pathetic but could be effective?

>> well, you know, watching trump now in light of the old southern political cliche that the guilty dog barks the loudest. and i'm hearing a lot of barking. now -- >> woof. >> i got my law degree by mail from trump university, so i can't figure out the court appeals, but the experts seem to think it looks pretty weak. i think they are trying to stretch out the clock here, but the substance of this is really bad for trump, and he looks worse and worse. now, i do not -- so, i think in the first quarter, it's going to get worse for him legally. maybe we'll get criminal referrals out of the january 6th committee. i think they're appropriate. but in the larger picture, it's not what the midterm elections will hinge on. if you like trump, you're going to think, oh, it's part of the conspiracy. if you don't like trump, you're going to get even more enraged. both sides might have a turnout advantage from that, but i think bigger forces are going to drive the general election, mostly driven by what people think of president biden and how he's doing. that's kind of the law of gravity in these midterm elections.

>> so, neal, i come back to the legal thing again, and i want to read to you just a little bit more from the tribe, ayer, and aftergut op-ed. they say there's a huge role here for the attorney general, merrick garland, to be playing and he's not playing it. let me read what they say. yet, there are no signs, at least in media reports, that the attorney general is building a case against the individuals, the one we talked about earlier, including donald trump, mark meadows, et cetera, no interviews with top administration officials, no reports of attempts to persuade the foot soldiers to turning on the people who incited them to violence. by this point in the russia investigation, the special counsel has indicted paul manafort and rick gates and secured the cooperation of papadopoulos. you know, look, we know how the neweler thing turned out, neal, kind of ended up being a big

damp squib even though the report was damning. as you look at the justice department and merrick garland, do you agree with the authors of this op-ed that it seems like there's not enough going on in the halls of that august building? >> well, it is an extraordinarily good op-ed, as i said on twitter early this morning, so i agree with a large part of it. i guess it's possible, and the authors, i think, admit this possibility, that merrick garland is waiting for congress to do its work first before starting to get involved. you don't want to have, necessarily, dual overlapping investigations that could mess things up. at the same time, i am, like those authors, just really deeply concerned that we're not going to get to the bottom of this, that, you know, that it could go the other way, and it reminds me in that sense of the november 2020 election, which, you know, was really close and but for a few people like judge michael ludig going to vice president pence or for the michigan county board doing the right thing, everything could

have been upside down and that's the same thing that could happen with this january 6th investigation. i mean, congress has taken a long time to investigate, and they've been met with unprecedented intransience. there's now eight separate lawsuits filed by trump folks against the 1/6 committee to try and prevent them from getting access to information. it's like federal court is looking like a, you know, trump reunion at this point of former advisors. i don't know if the willard was full or something. they're all filing their own lawsuits, basically saying, you know, stop this investigation and the like. i don't think those lawsuits go anywhere but it goes to that earlier question you were asking, john, about, can they delay and run out the clock and i think i'm worried about that at this point. i'm glad the supreme court filing is today and you know, i think i suspect they'll deal with that in very short order. >> i want to play a little sound here and then mike and kurt, i'm going to talk to you because it's the case, whatever's happening in the justice department, it's in contrast to what seems to be happening on

the 1/6 committee. adam schiff was on with rachael maddow last night and he was asked about whether the committee is going to be able to get to jim jordan and some of these other republican members of the house that the committee now seems to have in its sights. let's listen to what adam schiff had to say and then we'll talk about it. >> if he doesn't cooperate, are you allowed to subpoena members of congress like you can subpoena other people? is there a rule about that sort of thing? can you do that? >> we can do that. there's no prohibition against subpoenaing a member of congress. in the past, in the recent past, for example, in the russia investigation, we requested two members of congress, one democrat, one republican, to come and voluntarily testify, and they did. it wasn't necessary to compel them. we certainly hoped it wouldn't be necessary to compel members here. mr. jordan indicated earlier in the year, i think, that he said he had nothing to hide and we hope that he would therefore come forward. we'll find out soon enough. but that is one of the other

tools that we will have to consider. >> mike, you and i are old enough to remember when the only thing more unusual than a congressional committee threatening to or, in fact, subpoenaing another -- a sitting member of congress, was the possibility that under those circumstances, the sitting member of congress would defy the subpoena. so i ask you, you know, this all -- it feels like this committee is, like, we're going to do whatever we need to do to get to the bottom of this, and the question i have for you is, knowing the republicans in this -- in their current incarnation as you do, is there really anything that this committee can do to jim jordan and others to make them give the kind of testimony that would actually help us figure out what happened on 1/6? >> well, i think they're going to resist in every way they can. again, guilty dogs barking loudly. i think the committee has certain powers to increase pressure on them. what i would be worried about if i were on the trump side of this equation is if this hits a

boiling point with the committee and their subpoenas and defying and all that, that may give -- that may give a push for the justice department to act and get aggressive, which i hope is what happens. so, i think they have a lot of indirect pressure, but there is almost, with the exception of kinzinger and cheney, who are heroes here, there is no good faith on the republican side in the house on this, at least that's public. and you know, the problem is the whole system's built on the presumption of honorable people. and we have some dishonorable ones here trying, in my view, to cover up a horrendous, seditious crime, so i think the committee ought to do the most maximum thing it can and eventually it's going to, i think, come down to garland and will he act, and i hope he does. >> neal, before i get to kurt, i want to ask you, neal, this really quick question. if they do end up subpoenaing jim jordan and jordan ends up defying the subpoena, can they -- can you hold a sitting member of congress in contempt of congress? >> yeah, they could certainly try and do that, but for reasons

i think your question gets at, courts are really reluctant to do that and referee a kind of internal congressional dispute. so, i think at that point, it will be up to congress to go and use its inherent contempt authority to go and essentially jail jim jordan for failing to tell the truth. >> kurt, i want to come back and get the big picture from you. we talked the other day about the differences and similarities of this situation with what happened to nixon and watergate and the great podcast you did about weargate. there's a story in politico about tom rice, a republican congressman, who says now he regrets his decision to vote against certifying president joe biden's election on january 6th. the south carolinian says he still believes there were real issues with the election. however, among the ten house republicans who voted to impeach then president donald trump over the insurrection, rice is the only one who voted for certification challenges to biden's win. now he says he regrets casting those votes. in retrospect, i should have voted to certify, rice told

politico, because president trump was responsible on the attack on the capitol. in the wee hours of that night, i knew i should vote to certify, but because i had made a public announcement of my intent to object, i did not want to go back on my word. so, yeah, i regret my vote to object. this is kind of a -- talk about a dog that is barking in the night. we rarely hear dogs barking like this from this republican party. do you think that there's a -- that this is just such an extreme outlier, given the ways republicans have been complicit in the big lie, or is this a possibility that this is something we might see more of as we move forward towards the elections in 2022 and as more information comes to light in the committee and maybe the doj's investigation about january 6th? >> well, first of all, let's remember, i think it's important to remember that the time -- the clock can be run out on the house, should the republicans take the majority in a year. merrick garland and the

department of justice has three more years. so that clock isn't going to be run out. so, whenever we think of what merrick garland has or hasn't done in terms of january 6th, there's three more years in which to do it. i look back at what -- at the last week, we've already forgotten what happened last week with mitch mcconnell, a couple of different times, saying, well, no, we're really interested in seeing what this 1/6 committee does and who was involved and we're very interested. well, unlike the fellow you mentioned, he's going to be in office. he's not leaving and therefore doesn't have that as the way to suddenly tell the truth about -- and be honest about the need for accountability. so, i still take whatever his intentions were, and obviously, we had a couple of days of lots of speculation about what they were, i would -- until he goes back on that, no, we're interested in january 6th, i think there might be space for the mcconnell evil genius

rational leaders of the republican party to begin distancing themselves from the -- what happened on january 6th, especially -- we don't know what -- either the 1/6 committee or god knows the justice department has on, for instance, members of the house. so, one can imagine that mitch mcconnell, in creating a little distance, could be simply -- the preface for providing more distance for the few republicans who might not go over the cliff in support of the -- of what happened on january 6th. >> kurt is spinning a -- the kind of scenario that has seemed almost impossible to imagine over the course of the past months but who knows? maybe at this holiday season, there's a chance for all of us to dream. kurt anderson, mike murphy, thank you for starting us off. neal katyal, sticking around. up next, today's breaking news. ex-minnesota police officer kim potter guilty of manslaughter in

the death of daunte wright, the 20-year-old black man in minnesota. plus, president biden's federal vaccine mandates, which the administration says will save lives coming before the conservative supreme court in a matter of days in a rare special session. we'll get neal on that. and what omicron can tell us about where covid-19 is headed next and how many new variants we're going to have to deal with in 2022. "deadline white house" continuing after a quick break. "deadline white house" continuing after a quick break ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list event.

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with over these past few hours, around former minnesota police officer kim potter who was found guilty of both first and second degree manslaughter for fatally shooting 20-year-old daunte wright a little over eight months ago just outside minneapolis, a deadly incident that occurred when the country was watching the final days of the derek chauvin trial, the killing of george floyd, which took place in the same courtroom where the guilty verdict was handed down today. minutes after that verdict, minnesota attorney general keith ellison spoke directly to law enforcement about what this moment means for them today and about the long road ahead. >> we don't want you to be discouraged. your community respects and appreciates you. we want you to uphold the highest ideals of our society and ideals of safety. and when a member of your profession is held accountable, it does not diminish you. in fact, it shows -- it shows the whole world that those of you who enforce the law are also

willing to live by it. and that's a good thing. it restores trust, faith, and hope. >> joining us now, civil rights attorney general and former prosecutor david henderson. david, i saw you on our air earlier, right after the verdict came down, right after keith ellison spoke, and you were talking about how surprised you were by the outcome and what -- and you said you thought it was a game changer, this verdict. i want you to go into a little bit of detail there. i was struck by the analysis and i wanted you to elaborate on it so talk about why you were surprised and why you think it means so much. >> john, absolutely. to start with why i'm surprised. if you take a strict reading of the law, in terms of what the state had to prove, i disagree with one of the key arguments they made in close. a mistake is not a crime, unless it rises to the level of having the requisite criminal intent to convict someone. that was a tough argument to make here until kim potter took the stand. when i was actually watching her

testimony to try to figure out how i was going to analyze it, i got to be honest, i was on chuck todd when this happened, what she said was so offensive and so ridiculous, it changed my view of the correct way to interpret the laws that apply to her case and here's the other thing. and this is why some people don't like jury trials. juries don't strictly adhere to the law so much as what they do what they believe is right. by the time you heard testify, this does seem like the right outcome and it's a satisfying outcome in that regard. in terms of the impact it's going to have, it's going to have an impact on other similar cases that are in the pipeline that are going to have a dramatic impact on police reform in our country. >> you pointed earlier, and you just did, to her testimony was a turning point in the case. we saw the outcome of the kyle rittenhouse case where it's dramatic for someone to take the stand, risky move, rittenhouse

broke down and people said that was a key turning point in his favor in that case. in this case, a similar thing happened, she broke down, she was in tears, and you're saying, her testimony was so ridiculous that it changed your mind on the law. what was it about her testimony and her breakdowns that were so ridiculous that -- little more detail why it had the kind of impact it had on you and why it was such a bad miscalculation on their part for her to play it that way. >> so, john, what this all comes down to is what constitutes an effective, well-orchestrated trial strategy and you can't take one piece of the trial and separate it out from what should have been done in the context of the case overall. now that the case is done, i don't mind saying this, what the defense should have done and the fact that they didn't do this is telling. what they should have done from opening statement is they should have said, been practicing law for decades and this is the first time, i have to say, i agree with the prosecution. this young man should not be dead. the fact that he is, it's a tragedy and no one believes that

more than my client, and she's going to get on the stand and tell you so herself. she's responsible, and it was wrong, but she's also going to tell you it was a mistake. and for that reason, it's not a kriemg. crime. that's what they should have done. they also should not have tried to blame daunte for his death, which is what they did. when you combine those two things together, when they put her on the stand, she was testifying to things that weren't even consistent with what you saw at the scene, like, for example, that she feared she needed to use deadly force. that's completely inconsistent with the evidence. inconsistent with what happened at the scene. not to mention the fact that she said that for over 20 years, she's been a police officer, wanted to be one for even longer than that because she wanted to help someone and the time in her career when someone needed her help the most, she didn't even try. she just sat down and cried over the consequences for wrongful action that she took. juries aren't going to like that. >> i'm going to read to you, just a look towards the future, something from the "new york times," which says, this is

today, criminal charges against officers are still rare. according to data kept by a research team led my stinson, a criminal justice professor at bowling green state university, 21 officers have been charged this year with murder or manslaughter in connection with an on-duty shooting. while that figure is increased from 2020, when 16 officers were charged, and the highest analysis total since 2005, it remains small next to the roughly 1,100 people a year who are killed by the police in america. quote, it seems to be business as usual, mr. stinson said. it's very, very difficult to make systemic change. so i want to come back to your point about why this verdict is a game changer. does that -- is the nature of this verdict and the implications of it, does it make it easier for there to be systemic change on this front? >> you know, john, what it makes it easier is going to come down to what different people choose to do, prosecutors and jurors in different jurisdictions, but let's go back to something else

that you pointed out. whether or not this case is a game changer actually began in grand jury. i was surprised this case made it out of the grand jury with a true bill, meaning, it could move forward to trial, and i can't help but notice how many similar cases with similar facts, cases with even stronger facts, to be frank, never made it to that stage. breonna taylor's case is an example. this case demonstrates that prosecutors can get grand juries to go along with prosecuting police officers when they want to. it also shows that when they're dedicated to the case, even when it's a case that honestly is a close call when you look at it prior to trial, which is not a good thing when the state has to prove its burden beyond a reasonable doubt, even in a case like this, they can get successful outcomes, so it's harder to justify not moving forward when the police engage in wrongful conduct after this verdict and like i said, the killing of atatiana jefferson,

elijah mcclain, just to name a few. >> david henderson, thank you for bringing clarity and insight to our air all the time and particularly for spending this time with us today. coming up, the vaccine mandates that have prompted rare expedited hearings before the u.s. supreme court. expedited hearings before the u.s. supreme court people with moderate to severe psoriasis, or psoriatic arthritis, are rethinking the choices they make like the splash they create the way they exaggerate the surprises they initiate. otezla. it's a choice you can make. otezla is not an injection or a cream it's a pill that treats differently. for psoriasis, 75% clearer skin is achievable, with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. for psoriatic arthritis, otezla is proven to reduce joint swelling, tenderness, and pain. and the otezla prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression

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of listing out every policy decision the biden administration has made over the past year. now let's say you sorted that list out by the sheer number of americans directly affected by each policy, somewhere on the top of that list, you would find the initiative surrounding vaccine mandates. now, in an unusual special session, the u.s. supreme court is set to hear arguments on two aspects of that initiative. first, related to certain healthcare workers and the second, related to the requirement to either be vaccinated or take a covid test if you work for a large employer. that second requirement affects more than 84 million workers and according to the administration, would prevent nearly a quarter of a million hospitalizations, so it's a big deal. we are back with neal katyal to dig into why the supreme court is looking at these cases, how it got to scotus and what the likely outcome might be but let's start with that. "the new york times" says, under a 1970 law, osha has the

authority, the occupational safety and health administration, has the authority to issue emergency rules for workplace safety provided it can show that workers are exposed to a grave danger and that the rule is necessary. last week after the challenges were consolidated in cincinnati, a divided three-judge panel reinstated the measure. so now this ends up at the supreme court. talk to us about how unusual this is and what's going to play out there. >> okay, so, john, it's extremely unusual. the supreme court almost never hears oral argument on motions on an emergency basis, but i'm really glad they are, and they almost had to because of something we were talking about, john, you and i, yesterday on the show, which is, trump managed to stack the lower courts with a bunch of really ideological judges, several of whom have called the biden administration's vaccine policies into question. and so, that's why the court has agreed to hear these cases, to review these lower court decisions, and you're absolutely

right that the osha act, that 1970 law, has very broad language in it that allows an emergency rule if a rule is necessary to shield workers from a dangerous substance, and osha has a lot of different regulations. indeed, there used to be an instagram account with 650,000 followers on it making fun of just how much osha regulates. and if osha can regulate, like, having open water bottles in the workplace, i kind of think they should be able to regulate things like pandemic response and the like, and it's astounding to me that these republican governors have come in challenging this in the court. it's kind of brave for them. if i had botched that many, you know, caused that many deaths by my pandemic response, i'd never show my face in public again, but these folks are going and filing lawsuits. it's kind of like, you know, paul von hindenburg going on a national blimp tour. >> it's a good thing you're not a republican governor, neal, because we wouldn't have you on the show, you'd have your head

hidden in the sand. the second case relates to healthcare workers and you mentioned the republican governors, it has to do with the requirement that healthcare workers at hospitals that receive federal money be vaccinated against the coronavirus. there's, you know, there's been objections to all that but the thing i really want to get to here is, you just pointed out, the lower courts, stacked with conservative justices, many people would say, u.s. supreme court also stacked with conservative justices. "the new york times" says this. the supreme court has repeatedly upheld state vaccine mandates in a variety of settings against constitutional challenges but the new cases are different because they primarily present the question of whether congress has authorized the executive branch to institute the requirements. the answer will mostly turn on the language of the relevant statutes, but there is reason to think that the court's six-justice conservative majority will be skeptical of broad assertions of executive power. the last time the supreme court considered a biden administration program addressing the pandemic, which was a moratorium on evictions,

the justices shut it down. so, "times" there expressing some skepticism and kind of reinforcing the cynicism of a lot of people who think the supreme court is no better in terms of its ideological slant than those lower courts. who say you? >> well, i think it's hard for the supreme court to strike down these biden vaccine initiatives because this is, after all, the supreme court that defers to presidents when it comes to public safety, and that's a signature of the john roberts court, and most poignantly, you know, donald trump banned muslims from coming into the united states, and he ran on that platform, and i challenged that on behalf of the state of hawaii, and lost it in the supreme court 5-4 and what the supreme court said in that decision was that, when you have a statute that has some ambiguity in it, presidents get a certain amount of leeway for public safety and if you can ban muslims in the name of public safety, i kind of think you should be able to have some vaccine policies as well. and i think this court is going

to face a real dilemma in think about the material consequences of its actions if it tries to strike this down. i mean, you don't need to be a scientist to know that higher vaccination rates are good for everyone. i mean, heck, even donald trump thinks that vaccines are saving lives. that's what he said yesterday. and he's about as far as you can get from a scientist. so, i think it's a really hard thing for the court to strike down, so i guess i disagree a little bit with the "new york times" and its prognosis of this, because i think this is just so compelled by public safety, and i really hope the supreme court sees it that way. >> real quick, neal, one last thing, right? both these cases were on the shadow docket, a phrase that i believe until about six months ago, almost no americans had any idea what the shadow docket was. they still don't really understand what it means except there's some sense these are emergency applications to the court and they sometimes matter a lot. the texas abortion cases are one example of something on the shadow docket. can you just give us -- there's been a lot of criticism, and

some of it, i think, people are -- when you hear shadow docket, it sounds pretty sinister. i ask you, is it sinister, and do you think there's legitimate criticisms of how the shadow docket works and particularly in the cases that we've seen, including these? >> yeah, so, the shadow docket is this kind of emergency, rush to the supreme court after a lower court makes a certain decision, and what the critics are saying is, the supreme court's hearing these -- not even hearing these cases. they're just making decisions based on, you know, a quick filing based on the parties' submissions, and i agree with the criticism. they've been doing it too much. i think, you know, emergency motions have always been there. but with the trump administration did is make it an art form. they ran to the supreme court, i think, more than a couple dozen times. when i was in the justice department, i think we ran to the supreme court, like, once or twice over that same period of time so it was like, you know, it's a much different set of uses of what the supreme court's doing and i think the supreme court's heard the criticism.

i think that's why they're hearing oral argument on this as opposed to the rent moratorium case you mentioned a moment ago in which the supreme court just decided that on its shadow docket. >> neal, i won't tell anybody where you are, but you did put on twitter a picture of that ski slope and i won't say what state it's in. i think i know. please go out there and do a double black diamond for me and don't die in the process, okay? >> i will. >> thank you for spending time with us. >> i will, my friend. thank you. >> talk to you soon. up next, a look beyond the omicron surge and how science is working to stay ahead of this rapidly mutating and metastasizing virus. y mutating d metastasizing vis.ru

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don't let uc stop you from doing you. ask your doctor about once-daily zeposia. we're back to covid in the now dominant omicron variant, which experts seem to agree will launch us past the record case levels we saw last winter when 250,000 people were testing positive every day in the united states. but assuming that omicron isn't the end to our battle against the virus, what's coming next? and are scientists and government officials ready? new york city leaders addressed the unknown this week saying they're working to remain best prepared for what's next and bringing its back to the basics, reminding the city that vaccines and boosters are our number one tools to prevent more variants from emerging. let's bring in laurie garrett, pulitzer prize winning journalist, msnbc science contributor. i start this with you.

you have been someone who's been -- has looked at this, at covid from the very beginning and has been on the leading edge of seeing just how tough our future is going to be. as bad as it is right now, how bad do you think it's going to get if we get past omicron? >> well, first of all, getting past omicron is going to be quite an ordeal. we're certainly going to top a million cases a day sometime in early january. that looks to be the consensus view from multiple forecasting analyses presented to the centers for disease control. if we look at what comes next, what might be the next version of this virus, we're not doing any of the things we should be doing to forestall the inevitable, to somehow be on top of it and know what's coming and prevent the worst of it. what would those entail? well, i recent wrote in foreign

policy and analysis of why leaving millions, tens of millions of hiv positive people in africa either untreated or undertreated means that we have walking petri dishes of compromised individuals who can have covid in their bodies and the virus can just keep mutating and mutating and mutating inside of them. we have documented cases of people who have harbored covid in their bodies for upwards of 100 days because of undertreated or untreated hiv, and of course, the epidemic has disrupted hiv services. around the world, we have people who have immunocompromised situations due to cancer and a variety of other, you know, genetic disorders and so on, that are going untreated because of the nature of their health systems, because of poverty, and again, these are all a risk to all of us. we just ignore this, we allow

these social inequities and health inequities to persist, and we do so at our own peril. guaranteeing there will be new mutants, new strains, they will continue to evolve, and then on top of everything else, john, i'm very worried that this new set of drugs that look promising for early stage treatment, before you get hospitalized, to prevent you from hospitalization, that these drugs will get used willy-nilly, incorrectly, the way we do antibiotics, and of course, misuse of antibiotics promotes mutant bacterial development. so, you put it all together, and we just keep making the same darn mistakes. >> right. so, laurie, here's a kind of layman's -- the optimistic layman's assessment, and it's not -- i'm not propounding this, i'm just -- i think there's a lot of this thought out there in the world, which is, you know, this variant is obviously very transmissible, obviously very contagious, but if you're double

vaxxed and boosted, it's not -- you're probably not going to end up in the hospital, you're going to be fine. that's a thing that's out there, right? and so, you know, as we get these new drugs come online and the pills come online, and we're already talking to -- israel's talking about fourth doses of v to get to the point there will be more mutations and variants, but this will eventually be like the flu and we're going to have these pills and get the shots, it will all recede. it will be a fact of life forever, but it will get more manageable and more manageable. is that a fantasy by which i mean do you foresee a world in which the variants we face down the road become more transmissible, more infectious and deadly as opposed to more manageable? >> well, that scenario of course is voiced all over the place, it is what's keeping wall street alive and well.

yes, maybe, but not on any timetable that's going to be in the immediate future, and more importantly, as long as we continue to have such tremendous global inequity in the distribution of the assets you described, there will constantly be new waves of infection. this isn't like the flu because it is in many ways more contagious than the flu, certainly in casual settings, and because unlike the flu, it is relatively common for people who haven't had access to vaccine to end up hospitalized and end up in serious condition. i'm really quite fearful that we're just going to keep making these darn mistakes because we have such an inept political structure at the top of the whole effort to guide this pandemic and it is a political structure that ultimately is nation state driven with my nation being more important than

your nation, my neighborhood more important than your neighborhood, i get the masks, i get the syringes, i get the vaccines, to heck with the rest of you. as long as that's the way we approach this pandemic, we're going to have a surprise and another surprise and another surprise. this time it was south africa. next time it could be the philippines or someplace in southeast asia, for that matter, latin america. we're just not playing a game that allows us to be in charge of the virus. the virus is leading everything. we're in reactive mode constantly. >> got to get out of that mode. not sure what will do it for us. thank you for spending time with us today. we'll be back after a quick break. ack after a quick break. ♪♪

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welcome to the beat. i'm in for ari melber. we have a lot to get to, including a guilty verdict in the trial of former minnesota police officer kimberly potter. outpouring of reaction after she's convicted of manslaughter in the killing of donte wright. plus, i talk live to a nobel prize winning economist as biden and manchin try to reach a deal. we start with covid cases exploding on the single busiest travel day of 2021. kicks off the busiest travel week. an estimated 100 million drivers hitting the road, over 6 million passengers. a map of states where omicron is now present. your eyes do not deceive you, it is all 50. new york state has the highest number of cases for the fifth time in a