early with us on thursday morning. this is our final show of the year. i want to offer sincere thanks everyone who works on it. we could not do it without them and of course thanks all of you for watching each and every morning. we can't wait to take on 2022 with you. that's all for us, "morning joe" starts right now. we'll see you monday. >> as you noel, the cdc has been criticized for mix messaging throughout the course of the pandemic whether on masks or boosters. why should americans trust the cdc? >> my job right now is to take all the science and the information that we have and to deliver guidance and recommendations to the american people that's adapted to the science at hand. this pandemic has given us a lot of new and updated science over the last two years and it's my job to convey that science through those recommendations and that's exactly we are doing. >> this morning we have new

reporting on the cdc's decisions to relax guidelines as cases hit record numbers. plus, we'll have the renewed questions of what constitutes being fully vaccinated. good morning, welcome to "morning joe," it's thursday, december 30th, i am willie geist, with us the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire and susan docille. good morning, guys. first, the verdict of the trial of jeffery epstein's long time associate, ghislaine maxwell found guilty yesterday. >> reporter: the jury found maxwell guilty including five charges and sex trafficking of minors and carries 40 years

behind bars. >> today justice has been done. >> reporter: prosecutors called two dozen witnesses. four women who say they were recruited and groomed and lured by maxwell when they were teenagers so they can be sexually abused by epstein. epstein was able to sexual abuse young girls because maxwell was the key to the whole operation. jurors were reminded that she lived with him for years and referred to the lady as the house. prosecutors tieing the pair by sawing pictures of them over the years adding maxwell received $30 million from epstein. the defense trying to disredit the women. epstein took his own life in 2019 but his presence looming over the courtroom. the defense reminded the jury

separate maxwell from the jeffery epstein. he's been tried for being with epstein, maybe that was the biggest mistake of her life but that was not the crime. >> the jury felt otherwise, the crime they deemed her guilty can leave the 60 years old in prison for the rest of her life. >> joining us now tom winter and former prosecutor, charles colmen. charles, i want to start with you, you have been following this case for years now. where does this fall on the spectrum of what you expect here? >> it's exactly what i expected. the key thing when you look at the charging documents and what the jurors had to go through to arrive at their verdict, it's clear they believe the women. several of the counts they convicted on tied to the

individual victim. speaking of jane testifying under -- jurors believed their story and believed what they had to say. based on what i saw in the courtroom and the corroborating evidence that prosecutors presented, this guilty verdict that the jurors arrived at yesterday makes an awful a lot of sense. >> you heard the case made by prosecutors, how compelling it was and gut-wrenching and disgusting in many ways to listen and hear the stories of what these young girls experienced when they were just kids. >> i think the way prosecutors summarized it, focusing on the

idea was why was maxwell hanging out with jeffery epstein under some pretense where they're trying to help them out or help them with their schooling or education, it does not make sense. if you are trying to do that, set up a scholarship fund or some sort of mentorship clear. some of the incidents described, her testimony wasover looked because it was not as graphic in the incident of sexual abuse, it was a one time incident that involved her. she was invited to epstein's new mexico ranch under a guide she was going to be there with 20 to 25 other teenagers as some sort of a mentorship program. when she arrived was just her and she's hanging out and being brought to movies and brought gifts. why are they hanging out with a

teenage girl and why is maxwell massaging her. that was damaging to jury what that came across. >> those stories are so hard to hear. charles, the argument from the defense effectively was maxwell was a stand-in, she didn't commit the crime and she's only here because he died in prison. jury did not buy that. >> well, willie, you are absolutely right. the defense had a deeper strategy in terms of what they had to work with. they tried to make it about jeffery epstein and not about ghislaine maxwell. prosecutors what they're able to do is focus on what was it that maxwell did and then bring that to the larger enterprise of what jeffery epstein did and who he

was. what she did in terms of getting these young girls to these places and that's why they were able to secure the conviction. it was her specific role of what she is to him. >> charles, it's jonathan. she was found guilty five of six. why did you suspect there was one not guilty verdict and the likelihood for any inevitable appeal? >> jonathan, i thought about that and one of the things i keep oncoming back to is one of the notes for the jury, asking for the definition of enticement. when you look at the not guilty verdict, that word of enticement is what got them hung up. that related to one specific victim who testified and for the

jury they were not comfortable with that language and the charge that's why you saw the acquittal on that charge. i don't see any real reason, there was nothing from my observation in terms of watching this trial and talking to other attorneys as well of what was going on in that courtroom that rises to the level of reversible error of something that constitutes of a serious appeal. and a standard practice in a case like this. i don't expect it will get much traction or go very far. >> tom, as we all know there are some bull face names involved in jeffery epstein. is this the end of the story as a legal matter or there is some people who may still be in trouble? >> the investigation is still ongoing and something that prosecutors and federal agents will never close the book on.

there is a perjury count against maxwell so we'll see if prosecutors will charge her on those two counts. they gotten the max sentences they're going to get from her in this case. as far as where this goes from here, if jeffery epstein was still alive and maxwell was up for trial, you would see a different story here. they would secure her cooperation and come to some sort of agreement. i don't know where we go from here with respect to the bold names that you referenced and we are talking about two former presidents, bill clinton and donald trump was of whom flew on epstein's plane rather. when you look at it, willie, we have not seen any allegations either former presidents was involved in some sort of a sexual assault or abuse on those planes. we just have not heard about that before. and so i think from a

prosecution standpoint there is no indication they would be going after them. as far as other individuals, one thing we didn't hear because the judge felt it was outside of the scope of the indictment and charges here are other quote on quote "dates" that ghislaine maxwell arranged of women of age. that did not come in, how extensive it was and who was involved in that? that was something we did not get to hear. it will be interesting to see if that comes out. at this point there is no implications of anybody else being imminently danger of being charged here. >> susan is here with a question for you. >> good morning, charles, i am curious of the fact that it was the public corruption unit of

the fdmy that ran with this case that indicates of boldface names and other elected officials and bribery or whatever. they covered a lot there. is it possible that maxwell will offer to flip on some of these people. can she still get a deal considering maybe she thought she would never be found guilty in the first place and take another shot at this? >> well, i can say usually if somebody going to flip they would have done so at this point. it's possible as we go through the senteing phase of this trial, we may see maxwell's attorney reaching out and offering information that may be able to secure convictions down the line. it's possible in terms of getting a lower sentence but my gut tells me if we are going to see that from maxwell, we already would have. it's important to know many of the high-profile names we have heard about or rumored to be

connected to this case may not be an issue here because those are conversations around sexual abuse and there is a statute of limitations there. if prosecutors are going to charge new individuals, it will have to be because they were involved in the sex trafficking as well. they took young women from state to state and that's what invoke the federal conviction. they may be willing to cut a deal. again, if that was going to happen, it would have. >> ghislain maxwell guilty of five of six charges. charles and tom, thank you for both of you. the united states broke its record for a second day in a row according to data from "the new york times" more than 488,000

cases reported. the number of infections maybe higher than reported as fewer people tested over the christmas holiday. hospitalization rates are also rising from omicron. maryland and washington, d.c. reported a record number of hospitalizations, more than 2,000. the cdc is defending new recommendations that cut the isolation time for asymptomatic people who tested positive from ten days to five. i asked the director of the cdc, dr. wallensky about the decision not recommending a negative test before returning to normal activity? >> in those recommendations we do not recommend a test for several reasons. we know the pcr test can stay positive for 12 weeks. if you are waiting for a negative pcr, you would be isolating for months. in terms of the antigen, we

don't know how those tests perform whether they can predict whether you can transmit virus or not. >> in another interview on cnn, dr. wallensky says the new guidelines had a lot to do of what we thought people would be able to tolerate. dr. michael osterholm, good to see you as always. what's your take on the isolation down from 10 days to 5? it's more of what people can tolerate and getting people back to work and school. is it based on science in your view? >> well, willie, we have an imperfect situation that's going to require some imperfect responses. over the next three to four weeks, we'll see the number of cases in this country rise so

dramatically that we'll have a hard time keeping everyday life operating. already we are seeing it in our healthcare settings where we can lose our healthcare workers who are not available to work. we are seeing that right now in critical infrastructure area where people can't come to work. to me, ideally you would like to have more time to allow people to clear the virus and not potentially be transmitting it. at the same time we got to have people who are there everyday who are doing the work. how can you provide the safest environment. i support what they are doing. i think it's not perfect. it won't be perfect and what we have come before us the next few weeks is hardly going to allow for a perfect response. >> one of the things that raised our eye brows yesterday, dr. wallensky, when i asked her should you show a negative test after five days and not just put a mask when you go back to school. she says well a lot of those tests will show you positive

results for weeks and weeks so you will be quarantining for weeks and weeks. does that mean the test we have are not doing much good? >> number one you have to distinguish between the pcr test as theover the counter test. i have concerns of how accurate theover the counter test is picking up infections and we are missing them and people are making decisions about do i go to family events where people at high risk when i tested negative but really i am positive. that's the first thing. the pcr is a definitive test and we can get that. that can be positive for sometimes basically weeks after infection because you have what we call viral debris, the virus is not there but you arepicking up the remanence of the virus. the third thing which is the most important is another two weeks is going to be good to

test. there will be so many people who want to be tested but you don't have a test. how can you have a recommendation to say get tested but you can't find one. >> i was walking home from work and they have those mobile vans to test people. long lines on the block and when you get to the front of the line, due to volume, it's a 72 hour return time. for those three days, do you stay-at-home or do the test mean anything after three days? the at-home test, these rapid tests that so many are relying on if we can get our hands-on them. it's difficult to get the pcr appointment, you don't trust those necessarily, the rapid test. >> i don't. we need more information. if fda really has let us down in those areas, we need more information about how often are they correct. we have many, many examples of people who two and three days into their illness are testing

negative but turned out positive by pcr. again, they may be helpful but at the same time how helpful and we need to let consumers know when you use these tests, this is a chance finding it when you are infected and being told you are not. the test says i am negative, i can go do this and that. we need much better information than we have. >> dr. osterholm, the scarcity of the test may have influenced the cdc's decision to get rid of the require to test negative before entering everyday life because people can't get their hands on it. there is the definition of fully vaccinated change?

what do you think? >> jonathan, if you go back on this show in august, i thought full vaccination status should include the third dose, i all along said this was not about two doses and a booster, this is about a three prime vaccine, it took us a while to get there. i absolutely agree right now if you want to have the most protection or preventing serious illness hospitalizations or deaths, the third those is really important. absolutely i think it should not be implemented as full vaccination. i understand of the definitions of mandates and so forth. what i care about is what's going to protect you and me and loved ones from becoming seriously ill. that's three doses. >> dr. osterholm, susan has a question for you. >> you said the next three or four weeks are going to be

difficult for us overcoming this variant. based on the science and the fact that school district says they're going to rely on a lot of testing which they don't have the tests for, should school districts delay reopening k through 12? >> i can say this right now is not a function of should they delay it because of kids getting sick? i worry very much even with vaccinated teachers who could have break-through infections, we'll have a hard time staffing our school. all of society is pressured by this. it's healthcare and we are hearing of big box stores that are actually considering closing or have close because they can't find enough workers to be a work. this is going to get worse the next few weeks. we know schools are a place for the virus, kids will get it there and bring it home. teachers will get sick. the next three or four weeks, we

have to consider this a time out as you may say with this virus and not assuming it will last for months and months with omicron. i think the next month is going to be unparallel in the kind of decisions we have to make and schools will be one of them. >> dr. osterholm, heading to the new year, people want to have some hopes, what do they do? we find these rapid tests and we waited in line at the walgreens, okay, we got the test and we are negative, you are not alone in saying the rapid tests are not accurate enough. i don't have time to get a pcr test, i can't get an appointment. what do americans do the next couple of weeks? are we back to april 2020 days? march 2020 days in your mind where to stay-at-home and wait out a few weeks. there is not a big appetite for

that anymore? >> just because we get done with the virus, does not mean the virus is done with us. we'll see rise in hospitals and hospitalizations occurring and we'll see more people getting sick and we'll see challenges to our system. what i am suggesting is we are having a viral blizzard. i live in a place of blizzards. we know it will not last forever. the next month is going to be a viral blizzard. count on it. we can again with new drugs coming out that's going to make a big difference. i remember for those on this show that are old enough to remember what happened with hiv and aids in the 1980s, it was a death sentence, today we manage it very well because we have drugs that can make it happen. we'll continue to vaccinate, we'll have some drugs if people become ill, it won't turn into the serious life-threatening. hold on and knowing this virus is going to do whatever it's

going to do and we have light at the end of the tunnel but for right now, you have to hunker down the next few months. >> in the meantime get vaccinated and boosted. >> dr. michael osterholm, always speaking truth to us. >> thank you. >> as covid cases among children increase, we'll ask the secretary of education, miguel cardona, how his agency plans to keep children safe as they plan to return to school. plus, we join with the call between vladimir putin and president biden, richard engel will join us next on "morning joe." join us next on "morning joe. that's why i love liberty mutual. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪

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the call was requested by putin, it comes weeks after the two leaders held a two-hour virtual meeting which biden warned moscow of economic consequences if they invade ukraine. the two leaders expected to discuss what they call a range of topics. joining us now from london, richard engel, good morning. it's good to see you. these two men spoke a couple of weeks ago, why do you suspect vladimir putin requested this call? >> there is a series of meetings coming up focused on ukraine, they are in the second week of january. it seems like vladimir putin wanted to get ahead of those talks. there were some speculations that biden and putin may talk

then. the talks on ukraine of january 13th in europe. it seems like vladimir putin said let's talk now, let's talk before russia goes into its christmas holiday, it's on the orthodox calendar. but what putin wants to get out of this is still uncertain. there are some indications he may want to deescalate. there were reports that russia pulled back 10,000 of its troops around the 25th of december and russia news agency said those troops have returned to their permanent stations. the u.s. briefing ahead of this call yesterday said that russia still has a significant number of troops, tens of thousands ukraine officials say around 100,000 close to the ukraine border. still close enough if they want to further invade ukraine, it could do that. we don't know if putin is just

stalling, if he's trying to get ahead of the diplomatic activities that's supposed to take place in mid-january anyway or if he wants to de-escalate. richard, what are you hearing about the realistic possibility of russia invaing ukraine? does he want to call the international community bluff or the american bluff that it may step into defend ukraine in some way or if it does so, do you think putin will cross that border again? >> this is the subtlety of the story. i have been spoken to diplomats and talking to troops. if russia were to invade, it would not necessaily look like a massive -- with hundreds of thousands of troops with tanks rolling over the board and marching their way to kiev, what's more likely if russia to

take the next thing to the next levels were two onclaves, russia already have a footprint inside ukraine and russian adviser inside these onclaves, russia have talked a great deal of how these ukrainians are being abused and russia needs to step into save them. he could move into those onclaves and expand beyond that and try to link up with onclaves with crimea. there is different possibility of him invading and taking over but it would not look like hundreds of thousands of

uniforms rushing troops steaming through the border. if you remember when russia took over crimea, they did not acknowledge it. they sent in troops that were not wearing uniforms or not wearing insignia. i spoke to several troops, they did not respond and did not acknowledge who they were. it was only overtime it was clear these were russian special forces who would come in under some of the commercial planes and it infiltrated the area and took it over by itself. russia's quite sophisticated at doing this. it already has both crimea and the foothold of these two onclaves, it has enough power and if it wants to do it, it can do it in a way that have people guessing. >> they'll speak at 3:30 and they'll meet in geneva, richard

engel breaking it down for us. my recent interview with hillary clinton. plus, nurses and flight attendants are slamming the cdc of its new guidelines. we'll talk to flight attendants and nurses across the country. "morning joe" is coming right back on a thursday morning. " is back on a thursday morning mission control, we are go for launch. um, she's eating the rocket. ♪♪ lunchables! built to be eaten.

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welcome back to "morning

joe," it's 6:37. as many of you know in addition to hosting "morning joe," on the weekend, i host the show "sunday today" on nbc. i interviewed hillary clinton. >> reporter: part of being resilient is getting outside a little bit? >> yes, it has kept me sane. >> reporter: five years ago after losing a presidential election that would reshape the country. hillary clinton went for a long walk. >> reporter: you talked about after the 2016 election, going into the woods for a while and being ready to come out.

>> literally the very first day of the election, i said okay, i got to go for a walk, this is overwhelmingly depressing and i ran into this young woman with her dog and her baby and a big hug. going into the woods, i find deeply restorative. everybody will be knock down and the question is will you get backup. >> reporter: the two times presidential candidate is sharing the lessons she took from those painful set-back. in a new seminar called "the power of resilience" or "master class,". >> they ask me what did you want to talk about. why you have done what you have done throughout your life and how you overcame setbacks and disappointments and really became so resilient. well, i have a lot of experience in that. >> reporter: clinton has been a

historic and polarizing figure over her three decades a the highest reaches of power. as first lady of the united states, as a new york senator, as secretary of state and while running for president twice. >> so how did you read and deal with the criticism that received which includes people calling you to be locked up during the presidential campaign. >> what i learn is to take criticism seriously but not personally. you mentioned lock her up, it was absurd and in many ways dangerous attack. we are supposed to live in a society governed by the rule of law and the people chanting that and yelling at me, first of all, had no idea what they were talking about and secondly we are being instigated to do that. i don't pay attention to that kind of stuff. i think if people don't shrink from criticism wu understand

where it's coming from, you can go through life and withstand a lot of inin-coming attacks becae you have to. >> my fellow americans, today you sent a message to the whole world. >> i think the moment that's going to stick out to people in this master class is an ex trash extraordinary one where you read your victory speech. what compel you to sit down and revisit that speech? >> i want to be helpful as i could to the viewers and the process of being a master class. i didn't as you know write a concession speech because even though we had a lot of bumps the last ten days, i still thought we could pull it out. i worked on a speech that really was about my journey and how to

real emphasis of my late mother's life. clinton's mother was abandoned by her own mother at eight years old. >> i think about my mother everyday and somehow i think about her at that train, i wish i can walk down the isle. >> when they asked me to do it. i had a hard time getting through it. partly because it was so emotional because it brought back to me what was a great loss not just for me but for our country with somebody like trump getting elected despite of everything but also intensely personal particularly at the end where i talk about the little girl my mother was when she was put on a train in chicago and my whole emphasis starting when i was in law school going forward on working for kids was in many ways motivated by the life my

mother lived. >> i dream of going up to her and sitting next to her taking her in my arms and saying look at me, listen to me, you will survive. you will have a good family of your own and three children and as hard as it may be to imagine, your daughter will grow up and become the president of the united states. >> i know people who have known you for a long time and said they never seen that level of public emotion from you? >> well, that's probably true. part of it, willie, when you are a woman in public life, you kind of damn if you do and damn if you don't. when you show emotions, that may connect with some people and for some people, well, a woman should not have these jobs, they're too emotional.

it's really hard because you want to convey the emotions you feel because it does connect you to many people but it can be so mercilessly received. >> last night i congratulated donald trump, i hope he'll be a successful president for all americans. >> how painful has it been to watch the country since that day. i hope for the best from donald trump. i went to the inauguration and i heard that outrageous speech. there was not one grace note in that inaugural address. there was not anything that said okay i know some of you didn't vote for me but i am your president. it was what he did and how he abused the office and how he mistreated people starting with

the muslim ban through the outrageous behavior in trying to overturn the election and encouraging an attack on our capitol. and sadly the republican party has gone along with him. honestly they have hung their spines up on the wall as they walk into their offices. they have no conscious and no spine. we are seeing the results of a party that has been taken over by a demagogue. it's a time to decide whether we'll be a grown-up country or not. are we going to give into all these lies and disinformation and this organize effort? are we going to stand up to it? >> things that are important and things that are valuable are worth fighting for even if you don't win all the time. you have to get up and care about the world you are in and care about each other and do what you can to make a difference. >> you think we'll see a woman

president? >> i sure hope so, willie. we got to make it happen. it's not easy as i know very well. >> secretary clinton shares some advise for democrats heading into the midterm elections how they may run and run better to try to hold onto the house of representatives and made a prediction of what we'll see in 2024. >> if i were a betting person right now, i would say trump will run again. if he's not held accountable, he gets to do it again. i think that could be the end of our democracy. i want people to understand that this is a make or break point. if he were or someone of his ilk were to be elected as president and especially he had a congress that'll do his bidding, you will not recognize our country. >> given everything you have described, do you have moments

of responsibility or even guilt of what's happened? >> i try to warn people and try to make the case that this was dangerous of people who was allied with and what he was saying and what he may do. for james comey and what he did, i felt terrible for not stopping him and the people around him. i feel that everybody can see for themselves what kind of leader he is. there is clearly there were people who liked what they saw despite what i see is a real danger to our country. they turned out and voted for him. he's trying to get it set up so that'll happen again for him even if he loses as he did twice the popular vote. >> what do you see as the state of the democratic party right now? >> i think it's a time for some

careful thinking about what wins elections and not just in deep blue districts where a democrat and a liberal democrat or so-called progressive democrat is going to win. i understand why people want to argue for their priorities, that's what they believe they were elected to do. look, i am all about having vigorous debates. i think it's good and it gives people a chance to be part of the process. but, at the end of the day it means nothing if we don't have a congress that'll get things done and we don't have a white house that we can count on to be sane and sober and stable and productive. >> my conversation this month with former secretary of state, hillary clinton on "sunday today," believe it or not, that was a small taste of our conversation, you can see the entire interview and hear it on our podcast, you can get it on apple podcast or where ever you

get yours. coming up this sunday, we ring in the new year with one of the biggest stars on the planet, ed sheeran and talk through his incredible rise and now having the biggest and highest grossing concert in the history of music and passing youtube and his new album where the music was inspired by his new family. ed sheeran on "sunday today,". how the surge of covid cases is impacting new year's eve vacations. jacob soboroff reports for us from times square when "morning joe" comes back. g joe" comes back. what if you could see the details of your great-grandparents wedding day... ...or the record that welcomed your great-grandmother to the world.

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the holiday travel might mare continues for so many of you out there for more than 1,000 travelers. steve patterson has the details. >> reporter: the growing misery and airports across the country unended. thousands of flights cancelled and disrupted. >> i want to g t to get home. >> reporter: severe weather and cancelations, like seattle, the unclaimed bags are piling up. airlines are working around the clock to refund passengers. jet blue sacking 83 flights, announcing a schedule cut back until january 13th to reduce

last minute cancellations. flight attendants pleading for patience. >> we are trying to get you where you need to go as quickly as possible. if you will work with us, we'll work with you. >> reporter: the backup will last all the way through the holiday season. >> they just don't have a lot of margins for errors, all the planes and pilots are currently working. if they are available. >> reporter: icy roads causing this four mile backup in wisconsin and more storms are in the forecast. 20 million americans are under e veer weather alerts with the southeast braising for strong winds and hail and tornados. a possible tornado already causing minor damage in southern georgia. warmer temperatures are on the way as travelers hope for an end to this holiday nightmare. >> steve patterson reports for us there.

he'll speak with sarah nelson about what's happening on some of those planes right now. still ahead, ghislaine maxwell has been found guilty. our julie brown will be our guest when "morning joe" comes right back. guest when "morning joe" comes right back plaque psoriasis, the burning, itching. the pain. emerge tremfyant®. with tremfya®, adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis... ...can uncover clearer skin and improve symptoms at 16 weeks. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. emerge tremfyant® with tremfya®...

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welcome back to "morning joe," we are now 41 hours away from a new year. good morning, i am willie geist, joe and mika had the morning off. jonathan and susan is still with us.

ghislaine maxwell found guilty. maxwell spent years helping to find and groom young girls for epstein and others to abuse. she could spend the rest of her life in prison. the date for her sentencing has not yet been set. prosecutors and epstein's accusers praised the verdict. epstein died by suicide in 2012 following by his arrest and charges. maxwell's lawyers said they plan to appeal. joining us now, julie brown. she's the author of the book, "perversion of justice," good morning, it's so great to have you after the conviction of five counts of ghislaine maxwell. your reporting publish inside "the miami herald" opened the doors for these women who came

and testify in court. what are your thoughts this morning? >> i always think about the women that trusted me with the story. if it was not for them, i am not able to tell the story. i am grateful for the fact that they trusted me with this project and it was not easy. they were talking about something that happened to them years before and events they felt betrayed about because federal prosecutors in florida basically let him off the hook the first time. >> and so julie, if you can lay out, i mean it's a long story and you wrote an entire book about it, what maxwell's role was and who she was in his life and what she did now we can say because she's convicted on five of the six counts to these girls and they were girls at the time. >> right, you know jeffery

epstein could not have done what he did without a lot of other people helping him. he had a whole system of people around him corroborate these girls to him and set up this whole sex pyramid scheme ghislaine was at the center of that. she was his right hand. how actively she was involved in his life and certainly the victims testified some of them very copellingly about how she introduced him to them. >> hey, julie, good morning, it's jonathan lemire, let me echo willie's praise for your work. we would not be here without it.

but the epstein saga is one that fascinated americans and horrified americans for a few years. do you think the verdict closes the book or more we are going to learn about epstein and what happened and who he consorted with in the years ahead? >> well, you know part of his story is how much we really still do not know. as i mentioned we know that epstein did not do this himself and we know a lot of people are involved. it remains to be seen whether prosecutor is going to pursue it. it happened so long ago and in this case with maxwell is very challenging for them because memories fade and it was very difficult i think for the victims to come back all these years and talk about something of their memories and of the

specific events and who was there was foggy at times which made this case very challenging. so you know if you start trying to track down other people, i think it's going to get harder harder to go after them. >> julie, susan here, one amazing reporting if not for you so many women would not have had here voices heard. i am curious if you think there will be more of an opportunity for their voices to even be heard further in the sense of coming forward and what other things whether it's civil cases or other avenues for them to pursue again just to tell their story and get a lot of other women did not come necessarily forward of this maxwell trial and where this goes next with these women? >> well, as i am sure most

people know a trauma and every woman has a different way she reacts to something like this in her life. other women don't want to do that and don't want to be in the public eye. i think it's different for each woman. the fact that a lot of them have received compensation from epstein's estate kind of help them find closures as well as this verdict yesterday. hopefully a lot of them have found some sense of just in effect that someone has been held accountable. >> julie k. brown who earned the trust and gave a voice to girls and now women who were abused by jeffery epstein and ghislaine maxwell. julie, thank you so much for

your reporting and thank you for being here this morning. we appreciate it. the united states spent the last week shattering records for coronavirus, last week along there were 1.8 million infection wise. >> the 60% surge in daily covid cases compared to last week. the jump in number largely due to omicron. >> it's hard right now. i hope people can do their part and get vaccinated. >> new covid patients will spend the night in the er because his hospital is at capacity. >> many of them are unvaks unvaccinated and some asked if they can be vaccinated tonight but it's too late. >> i want to make sure i am safe. >> dr. fauci suggests that omicron is less severe than delta. one out of south africa shows

fewer admissions to the suv and fewer patients need of supplemental oxygen. still many are questioning why the cdc abruptly cut quarantine from 10 to 5 days. those working in close contact with the public worry are likely to be exposed. >> we have policies that's putting this pandemic on the backs of the front line workers rather than supporting us. according to the cdc's data, people are most infectious of one to two days before symptoms appear and two to three days after. so these five days when you be the most contagious and according to the cdc went up to 90% covid transmission occurs. five days after you test positive is when the cdc's new isolation rules would end if you are symptomatic . not only symptoms gone away by then but soto of the likelihood

of transmitting the virus. dr. wallensky was pressed with why no tests is required to confirm an all clear. >> antigen test was not authorized for this purpose. it's information whether or not useful regardless of what the antigen test said, we would say you still have to wear your mask for five days. >> those antigen home tests which have been less in supply and less able to detect omicron. lauren johnson took four of them and came back negative and still she got a pcr. >> my pcr test was positive. >> you can have what's called a false negative and that can give you a false sense of confidence. >> kerry sanders is reporting there. a closer look on how the cdc's isolation guidelines are impacting two key industries, flight attendants and nurses say the new covid recommendations

put their workers at risk. joining us now, vice president of nursing program for the american nurses association, cheryl peterson and president of the association of flight attendants, sarah nelson. thank you both for being with us. sarah, how specifically do these new guidelines put nurses at greater risk? >> yeah, thank you so much for having me. i think one of our challenges is we don't know. we have circulating and delta continues to circulate despite our best efforts to try and tap down this pandemic. we really need to give people sufficient time to heal and rest and get better before we start putting them back to work which is one of our big concerns about nurses and that we are clear they are not going to continue to shed virus. i understand the two to five

days or two days prior or three days after. i understand that is where we think the science is but it's not 100%. >> so cheryl is part of the concern that nurses will be asked to come back to the hospital. let's say if they contract the virus, they'll be asked to come back to hospital settings earlier than you think is safe to be there. >> if you look at the scale the cdc used in particular to healthcare professionals, they have conventional and contingent and prices. when you look at contingent which is the second level. what they are saying is nurses can come back for work within five days whether they are asymptomatic or still have mild symptoms. i am really concerned of putting

a tool in the hands of employers to say you can come back to work even if you are showing symptoms, mild as you think they be that we could compel nurses to come back to work during this time. we have an unholy matrimony if you will looking at safety and dealing with the economic fall-out that we have in broader society as well as a challenging shortage of nurses or the staffing shortages that we have in our facility today. >> well, we are so grateful of what the nurses do and the people you represent do. sarah, i would say the same, i was on the plane, i found people sort of going out of their way to thank the flight attendants because we know how hard the job is always and especially right now. what are your concerns for the people you represent up in the skies about these new guidelines? >> we express concerns because this policy came out on a backs of delta airlines lobbying for

this. and because of staffing shortages. it was very clear that this was about trying to push people back to work and sure enough since these guidelines have come out, delta has released its policy, they're cutting the time that they're supporting people with sick leave pay in half. they're not includingasome -- a guidelines. that's it. and so this is really about keeping corporate america going rather than focusing on public health and the evidence is showing that. we are very concerned, we are not here to talk about what the sciences or how many days are the right number of days? we are very concerned that we are putting tools in the hands of employers who are going to abuse this and force people coming back to work before they are better and when that happens it's going to increase the conflict in our plane and make

everyone else uneasy and at 90% of likelihood not being infectious, that means there is 10% likelihood that you are and which means there will be more infectious and we'll have a longer term pain here. >> good morning, sarah, you mentioned the idea of rising incidents and unruly behaviors on passengers, it feels like everyday we are looking at some viral clip that's depressing to humanity frankly. give me a sense if you will of the state of moral of people in your industry right now. your co-workers and colleagues, how are they doing and how are they holding up and what additional strain is about to be placed? >> they are warned out and tired. it's difficult to come to work, as we said before the holiday seasons started, they are not picking up holiday pay time and airlines have been counting on

that. people are not picking up that time because they are worn out. when we have public trust in health officials eroded because you have them responding so it seems to corporate america rather than putting forward good public health policies, that also makes our jobs harder because we are enforcing this rule to keep people safe like the mask policies and when people are not believing what they are hearing from public health officials, that makes it harder on us. it's likely a flight attendant is going bet punched in the face. we are aware of that, too. this consistent problem has been a problem at the beginning of the pandemic. >> when it comes to your nurses, what do they need from the public? i know getting vaccinated is a large thing.

i know there is a large number of patients won't get vaccinated. a year ago it was ppe, i understand there is plenty of that now. what can the federal government do to help your nurses? >> yeah, the federal government has put forward some new resources that they are putting into the states and the military to help support hospitals and healthcare system, they're looking how they can use defense production act in another or new or better way in order to help to provide support. here is our reality just like my colleague from airlines said, we need the help of the public. we can sit there and say with everybody knows they have to get vaccinated, yeah, they have to get vaccinated. everybody knows that they need to wear masks. and they need to wear their masks up over their nose. we had a young man who was getting tested, hopefully he had

it past below his nose because he was getting tested. we need people to wear it well and keep themselves safe. that has been so politicized unfortunately that it's challenging and may i just say just like our colleagues in the airline industry, people are taking their frustrations and anger out on nurses. they are hitting nurses as well. its got to stop. it's time for us to grow up and act like the adults we are. learn and listen, and behave appropriately so we can get to the other side of this pandemic. >> amen to that. cheryl peterson and sarah nelson, thank you for being here and please pass along to both of your group of our great thanks they are doing here.

let's bring in eddie glaude jr. it's great to see you. you will be with us for the show. i want to ask you and you told us you are comfortable talking about it about a breakthrough case you had and fully vaccinated and boosted and how are you doing today? >> i am much better, it felt like a bad flu. terrible headaches and the last couple of days, we bounce back. i tried to do too much yesterday and the lung capacity it was not what it was. we are making our way back. the one thing we do know is we didn't have to go to the hospital. we are all doing much better in this household. thank god. >> that's good. that's great to hear, you look good and sound good. where you teach at princeton university maybe a reflection of what we'll see at some of these colleges and schools around the country at the high school level, a change in covid rules

at princeton university when students come back in mid january, they're not allowed to venture out at at least through the middle of february. all princeton students are required to be vaccinated. what do you make of this, eddie? >> i think we have a wonderful and effective testing regime at princeton. we try to create the faculty and staff and the community is made up more of not just simply students and so i think this is important and last segment there was a phrase that was used that we need to focus on. we need to prepare ourselves for a viral blizzard. i think all institutional spaces, i think we need to understand what it means. we can't be on the highways or out and about like everything is usual and everything is okay. we need to understand what's

ahead of us and i think princeton is doing what it needs to do and we need to prepare accordingly. >> that was a term used by dr. osterholm, there is as blizzard that's covering all over 50 states. there is a few states concentrated and they can move medical personnel from other states and now you will see it popping up in every state and that's much more difficult. eddie, stay with us. up ex-miguel cardona will be our guest as students prepare to return to school from winter break on monday. how the department of education is preparing for that when "morning joe" comes right

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7:24 this morning with a look high above times square. with the surge of covid cases, new year's eve may look more like last year. jacob soboroff takes a look how 2022 will be rung in a little bit differently. >> reporter: good morning, the daily covid cases is over 22%. that had not stop with mayor de blasio moving forward a modified plans here in times square. >> reporter: times square placing the finishing touches on its new year's celebration. even if welcoming to the 2022 party is scaled back, tourists are still excited. >> we made plans and so we kind of kept it and took our precautions. >> reporter: the famous ball in

place. roughly a quarter of the crowd that gathers here. chicago is also moving ahead with their festivity but choosing to spread out its fireworks along the river to alleviate crowding. >> not only outdoors but to spread it out so we don't have massive crowds in one place. >> reporter: some other major cities are scrapping their celebrations, atlanta and los angeles cancelled their events, and up the coast in seattle, fireworks will be going at an empty street as crowds won't be able to gather. we won't see them lighting up the skies in paris, london and berlin and rome. much of europe is avoiding mass

gathering. >> when you are dealing with a family gathering in a home where you and the people that are there are vaccinated and boosted, although nothing is 100% risk-free, that's a risk-free situation. the new year's eve celebration where you have 30 or 40 people where you don't know the status of many people. that's something you want to stay away from. >> if you are around strangers save that midnight kiss for ringing in 2023. hopefully. >> reporter: we are going to witness something historic, the in coming mayor, mayor-elect adams is going to be sworn in right here in times square. he's going to get right to work in the biggest city in the country fighting covid. >> all right, jacob soboroff.

thank you so much. two days left in the de blasio administration after turning the page to eric adams, how is he looking at the job and what's in front of him. >> the new mayor is not waiting to take office. he'll indeed take the oath tomorrow night after midnight in times square which raised some eye brows. the mayor-elect hoped to do it in his home in brooklyn, that was an indoor event so that was cancelled because of the rise in covid cases so it will be outdoors at times square. he's going to get right to work, we heard from him that he's committing to keeping schools open as did mayor deblasio and there will be revamp increasing testing. the surge over a million kids, that's larger than most u.s.

cities they're trying to limit classrooms being closed and test students keeping them there and of those who have been vaccinated and the importance of in-person learning in school and he's a mayor coming into take charge of the city. we heard him say he'll dedicate it to the police force. it's a city like so many big city in the country had seen office workers and commercial real estate space decline and people are not back to wool. he's got a full plate, his new era begins tomorrow night. >> let's keep on the subject of education of schools. joining us now is u.s. secretary miguel cardona. thank you so much for being with us this morning. we appreciate it. >> big day coming up on mondays as schools are back open. we have been talking to

officials this week who are concerned of the rapid spread of omicron. what do you make of the new york city model which is saying we are not going to shut down our school, we'll test everybody else in that classroom if a kid has coronavirus, he or she will stay home from school but school goes on. >> thank you for having me. i appreciate what the future mayor is doing. >> we need to make sure students have access of in person learning full-time. that's what they learn best. they suffer enough a year and a half. the good news is we know what to do. we have the tools available for our students and protocols are being developed across the country. our students deserve an opportunity to be in the classroom. >> as you know, mr. secretary, the washington, d.c. school

district announced students will have to show a negative test before they come back to school on monday. is that is a good idea and should it be adopted across the country? >>. >> you know for me, our department is going to be focused on making sure schools are safe and students are in the classroom where they learn best. efforts proviing testing and protocol is what we are focused on. protocols to get them into the classrooms, we should all be focusing on getting kids go back to the classroom as soon as possible. i know there are some staffing issues and i applaud the leaders across the country who are focusing on addressing those. there are funds for that. we want to support them to get schools open as soon as possible. >> sounds like you think testing is a good idea. the problem is coming up with enough test, how do you test a

million kids, for example, in new york city or hundreds of thousands of kids in washington or cities across the country where we see people fighting to get into the cvs or walgreens. how do you get a testing regime for a country this big and all these schools? >> well, that's a great question. >> thankfully when the american rescue plan passed, included $10 billion for testing as early as march. there are protocols in place, the rocket foundation rolled up their sleeves. it's not something new and it's not the district is compeing with those looking for tests at cvs. there are tests available for school and one of the pieces of information that we put in a guidance to remind folks the importance of testing protocols so that not only do we open our schools but we keep them open. we need to be thinking

long-term, we have done this before. this is not our first time reopening schools. we have better tools now. >> do i think we agree on that schools need to open? i got kids, too. we want them in school and we know how difficult learning remotely was in 2020 and 2021. if you do testing at the door and you know the kids are negative, then you can go on with a school day. do you think every school that can should test every kid that walks into the door? >> absolutely. >> and i will gol one step further. we had our schools opened over 90% before everyone is mitigated. let's not forget the use of mitigation strategy ta we know allowing our students entering. put together and we know how to keep our kids safe and our staff safe. let's go on the business of

thriving and not just talk about reopening. >> eddie glaude has a question for you, mr. secretary. >> we talked about mitigation and testing. what do you think of vaccine mandates at this moment. >> we know we have seen a rise in children hospitalizations because of the cause of covid. what do you require that all of our kids will your honoring returning to school of all of our kids have a covid vaccination. >> i support the efforts at all levels to require vaccinations. listen, we have seen vaccines work and they are safe. what we are seeing now is we have hospitals going up with people who are not vaccinated. we know how to get past this.

we need to continue that trend. >> jonathan lemire, i want to talk to you about masks n school, that's one of the mitigation efforts that's been in place for a while. we know some counties and states remaining controversial and there is lawsuits to prevent that from happening. can you deliver your message to us why that is so important particularly now with arrival of omicron surges and cases surging among children. >> absolutely. we know the mitigation strategy works. i am a father, i want my children to be safe. and while my children tell me they don't like wearing masks, i don't like it. i know in order to keep myself safe and my community safe, it's something i have to do for now. it's unfortunate that it has become politicized. we know the data shows that in those places where students were not masked, there were greater

hospitalizations. we can do better. the mitigation strategy are critical. mitigation strategies like masks mattered, they work. that couple with vaccines will allow our students back in the classrooms learning with their friends and teachers. we should not be talking about this 2021 or 2022. >> mr. secretary, susan here. you mention the cares act and money that was allocated to schools of $10 billion for testing, there is actually a total of $129 billion put out there for k through 12 students. can you get into how much that money has been spent and is it going to make a difference when school starts in monday. >> sure. >> yes, the american rescue plan provided unprecedented funds for education to make sure that our

schools are safely reopen. let me tell you what those dollars did. in march of this year, we would have 47% of our schools open. in december, we had 99% of our schools open. children had access to in-person learning. they had access in the summer of wonderful summer programs, after school programs. the money is being used to provide enrichment and support and recovery and learning and loss and those funds will continue to be used to provide access to emotional support and academic acceleration and we'll continue to see these trends this year and next and how those funds are helping our students not only be in the classroom but arrive in the classrooms. >> let's hope for all the sake of our kids to keep the school open. secretary cardona, thank you, we appreciate it. happy new year to you.

>> happy new year to all of you. the fight over gun rights to the issues of abortion. pete williams takes us through the high profile supreme court cases expected to be decided in the new year. "morning joe" is coming right back. "morning joe" is coming right back before nexium 24hr, anna could only imagine a comfortable night's sleep without frequent heartburn waking her up. now, that dream... . ...is her reality. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts, for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn?

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the sun is up over the white house on this thursday morning. the u.s. supreme court returns where they are watching on abortion rights. pete williams looks ahead of the docket. >> reporter: abortion began dominaing supreme court terms before it officially started.

the justice allowed texas to continue. the law bans abortion after six weeks of pregnancy. a bitterly divided supreme court ended up ruling abortion providers can continue to fight the law in court but made it nearly impossible to shut the law down. >> we can't sue clerks or attorney general, we can't get the lawsuit locked and the lawsuits are what's making it impossible to clinics to open. this law allows anybody to sue anywhere in the world against the clinics in texas. >> a ruling in a more consequential case coming in late june that would ban abortion after 15 weeks. a victory for mississippi starting with roe v. wade, saying states can't ban

abortion. court's liberal warns such an outcome seems to be a decision based on politics. >> will this institution survive the stench that this creates in the public perception that the constitution and its reading are just political acts? >> the court will decide the fate of a new york law bans carrying handguns in public. residents can get a permit to carry conceal weapon but only if they can show a need. gun rights advocate says that violates the constitutional rights to keep and bare arms. >> i mean does your right to sell protection stop when you leave your home? >> a majority on the supreme court agreed that the new york law is unconstitutional such as

a decision would be to boost the second amendment rights. >> the court will decide whether to use restrictions on using public money to pay for religious education whether -- the terms is unfolding. it was divided on adding more justices the the current nine members court and more receptive to the idea of term limits. we may learn whether justice steven briar intends to retire under the current terms. he's now the court's senior liberal, justice briar will turn 84. the timing will determine on his health. >> susan, it's obviously a monumental docket as we turn

into the new year. there will be the substance of those decisions and politics around them as we ring them into a midterm election. >> probably the most politically charged on the mississippi case abortion rights. at that point in late june, a lot of the republican primaries, about two-thirds of them will be done. you will have candidates who have fought and decide how far right they want to go whether they believe rape, incest, is something to take up at the decision there. what it can do is give democrats a reason to really wake up to the 2022 midterm elections. >> this can be a huge rallying cry similar to the second amendment and the nra is using

it as a political tool now. >> suburban women are going to play another key role in the decision, how important will be to not have seen such an extreme decision. one of the things that's worth knowing is there will be 12 states that have trigger loss. we'll have see in realtime, 12 states go ahead and enforce their abortion restriction laws. there will be a lot of coverage of how it affects women. >> the decision may come down this summer which could animate voters on either side of the isle and certainly -- >> let me ask you, eddie, what are these cases and what are you looking for from the supreme court as we head into 2022?

what's going to matter the most? >> well, i think what we are going to see is the intense occasion of the culture wars when we talk about abortion rights and gun rights and affirmative action. this is in so many ways of beatling who do we take ourselves, that's our cultural gravity. what will i see coming out of this supreme court, we'll translate politically, intense cultural battle. it seems to many that the democratic party has to learn how to fight on that terrain in aggressive way. it seems to me a lot will be at stake in terms of how those battles are fought and thousand they are won. >> we shall see. still ahead this morning on "morning joe," how a maintenance worker got inside a florida zoo enclosure where he was attacked

by a tiger. we'll tell what happens and whether charges will be filed. that story is next on "morning joe." xt on "morning joe.

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an officer was forced to shoot and kill a rare tiger at a florida zoo after it attacked a man who authorities believe may have tried to pet it. kerry sanders has the story. >> reporter: a terrifying tiger attack inside a florida zoo leaving one person hospitalized in intensive care. >> medical emergency, naples zoo. >> reporter: it happened late wednesday evening after the naples zoo had already closed to the public. authorities say an outside maintenance worker, who was supposed to be cleaning

restrooms and the gift shop, instead crossed a fence barrier and entered the tiger enclosure. investigators say he reached through a second fence possibly to pet or feed the adult tiger when the nearly 300-pound cat latched on to his arm. sheriff's deputies quickly rushed to the scene. the first officer kicking the enclosure in an effort to scare the animal. when that didn't work authorities say the deputy was forced to shoot the tiger which caused it to retreat. >> the tiger is still inside the tiger cage. >> reporter: the zoo releasing a statement overnight calling the employee a third party contractor with no authorization to be inside animal enclosures. the zoo confirming as a result of the incident the rare 8-year-old tiger named echo died. >> kerry sanders reporting there. there are fewer than 200 malayan tigers left in the world.

still ahead here on "morning joe," the united states broke its record for new daily covid cases for the second day in a row. we'll have the numbers and the ongoing debate over the cdc's easing of isolation guidelines. plus, a look back at the most significant stories of 2021. covid, of course, continued to dominate the headlines in a year that also included an attack on the united states capitol and the end of the war in afghanistan. "morning joe" is coming right back. t back hi susan! honey? yeah? i respect that. but that cough looks pretty bad... try this robitussin honey. the real honey you love...

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as you know well the cdc has been criticized for mixed messaging throughout the course of this pandemic, whether it's on masks or on boosters. why should americans trust the cdc? >> my job right now is to take all of the science and the

information that we have and to deliver guidance and recommendations to the american people that has adapted to the science at hand. this pandemic has given us a lot of new and updated science over the last two years, and it is my job to convey that science through those recommendations, and that is he is actexactly wh doing. new reporting on the cdc's decision to relax covid isolation guidelines just as cases now hit record numbers. plus, we'll have the renewed question of what constitutes being fully vaccinated. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, december 30th. joe and mika have the morning off. with us the host of "way too early" and bureau chief of politico jonathan lemire and susan del percio. we'll tell you what you need to know headed into new year's. first, the verdict in the trial of jeffrey epstein's

longtime associate ghislaine maxwell found guilty on five sex trafficking charges. nbc news correspondent ron allen has the story. >> reporter: after six days of deliberation, a jury found ghislaine maxwell guilty of five out of six federal charges including section trafficking of minors which is the most serious and carries up to 40 years behind bars. >> the road to justice has been far too long. but today justice has been done. >> reporter: throughout the three-week trial prosecutors calling two dozen witnesses. four women who say they were recruited, groomed, and lured by maxwell when they were teenagers so they could be sexually abused by jeffrey epstein, calling maxwell epstein's partner in crime saying epstein was able to sexually abuse young girls because maxwell was the key to the whole operation. jurors were reminded that she lived with him for years and was even referred to as the lady of the house. prosecutors tying the pair by showing pictures of them together throughout the years

adding maxwell received more than $30 million from epstein during the years her alleged crimes were committed. the defense trying to discredit the four women, questioning their memory, telling jurors they were coerced by attorneys and motivated by money. epstein took his own life behind bars in 2019, but his presence looming over the courtroom. the defense reminded the jury to separate maxwell from the disgraced financier saying ghislaine maxwell is not jeffrey epstein. adding she's been tried here for being with jeffrey epstein. maybe that was the biggest mistake of her life, but that was not a crime. the jury felt otherwise and the crimes they deemed her guilty of could leave the 60-year-old in prison for the rest of her life. >> nbc's ron allen reporting there. joining us now investigations reporter tomorrow winter and former prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. tom, you've been there at the courthouse right from the beginning, following this case so closely for years now. where do five of six guilty

counts fall on the spectrum of what you expected here? >> i think it's exactly what i expected. the key thing when you look at the charging documents and what the jurors had to go through to arrive at their verdict yesterday, it's clear they believed the women. several of the counts they convicted on are specifically tied to the individual victims speaking about jane, testifying under a pseudonym and count four and count six is carolyn. so jurors believed their stories, believed what they had to say and arrived at a guilty verdict. based on what i saw in the courtroom, based on the testimony i saw and the corroborating evidence prosecutors presented, i think this guilty verdict that the jurors arrived at yesterday makes an awful lot of sense. >> as you listen to the testimony in this trial, you heard the case made by prosecutors. how compelling was it?

obviously gut wrenching and disgusting in many ways but to listen to it as a legal argument to hear the stories of what these young girls experienced when they were just kids. >> i think the way prosecutors summarized it, it focused on this key idea of why was ghislaine maxwell hanging out with teenaged girls with jeff epstein under the pretense of they were trying to help them out or trying to support them or help them with their schooling or education, it doesn't make sense, right, willie? if you're trying to do that, set up a scholarship, a mentorship program. but it's very clear that some of the reasons and some of the incidents particularly by amy farmer, her testimony was overlooked because it wasn't as graphic in the incidents of sexual abuse was a one-time incident that involved her, but when she talked about it, she was invited to jeffrey epstein's

sprawling new mexico ranch under a guise she would be there with 20 to 25 other teenagers as some sort of a mentorship program. when she arrived, telephones just her. and she's hanging out and going to movies and being bought gifts by maxwell and epstein. why are they hanging out with a teenage girl? why is ghislaine maxwell massaging her? i think that was particularly damaging in front of the jury when that testimony came across, and i think it's something that prosecutors, frankly, summarized effectively in their closing arguments. >> those stories are so hard to here. the argument from the defense was that ghislaine maxwell is a stand-in for jeffrey epstein. she didn't commit the crimes. it was jeffrey epstein who did and she's only here because he died in prison. the jury on five out of six counts didn't buy that. >> willie, i think you are absolutely right. the defense had a decent strategy in terms of what it was they had to work with.

they essentially tried to make it about jeffrey epstein and not ghislaine maxwell. however, the prosecution did what they were supposed to. specifically focus in on what was it that maxwell, herself, actually did and bring that into the larger enterprise of what jeffrey epstein was doing and who he was. and so because they made a point to identify maxwell and her specific acts, where she was present, what she actually did in terms of getting these young girls to these places in order for the acts to occur, that's why they were able to secure the conviction. it wasn't just about jeffrey epstein. it was about showing maxwell's connection to his enterprise and what her specific role was and what she did. >> charles, it's jonathan. ghislaine maxwell was found guilty of five of six. i want to get your sense why there was the one not guilty verdict and the likelihood of any sort of success for the inevitable appeal. >> well, jonathan, i thought

about that and one of the things i keep coming back to, one of the notes from the jury, the jury asked for a note asking for the definition of enticement. when you look at that not guilty verdict with regard to the one charge, the word of enticement is what got them hung up. that related to one specific victim who testified and i think ultimately for the jury they weren't necessarily comfortable with the language in the jury instruction and in the charge so that's why you saw an acquittal on the charge itself. as it relates to the appeal, i don't see any real reason -- there was nothing from my observation in terms of watching this trial and talking to other attorneys as well about what was going on in that courtroom that rises to the level of reversible error or would constitute grounds for appeal. while i do expect the defense to mount one in standard practice in a case like this, i don't suspect it will get much traction or go very far. >> tom, there was some

bold-faced names involved in jeffrey epstein's orbit here. so is this the end of the story as a legal matter, or are there people who still may be in trouble for this? >> i think the investigation is still ongoing, something prosecutors and federal agents will never close the book on, willie. it is important to note there are two charges severed from the original indictment, perjury counts against ghislaine maxwell. we'll see if prosecutors go back and try to charge her on those two counts in the future. i think that's something important to remember although at this point they've gotten the max sentences they're going to get from her in this case. as far as where this goes from here, if jeffrey epstein was still alive and ghislaine maxwell was up for trial, i think a different story here. they would have tried to secure her cooperation and come to an agreement. i don't know where we go from here with respect to the bold names that you referenced and obviously talking about two former presidents in bill

clinton and donald trump, both of whom flew on jeffrey epstein's plane. i think when you look at it, willie, we've not seen any allegations that either former president was involved in some sort of a sexual assault or sexual abuse on those planes. we just haven't heard about that before. and so i think from a prosecution standpoint, there's no indication they would be going after them. as far as other individuals, one thing we didn't hear at the trial because the judge felt like it was outside the scope of the indictment and the charges here are other, quote, unquote, dates maxwell arranged with other individuals, male individuals, and women of age. that testimony did not come in. how extensive that is. how broad that is. who is involved in that, are there bold-faced names involved in that? that's something we didn't get to hear. interesting to see if that comes out in the coming weeks and

months through some other sort of means but at this point there's no indication that anybody else is in imminent danger of being charged here, willie. >> there may be more to come. charles, susan del percio is here with a question for you. >> good morning, charles. i'm very curious about the fact that it was the public corruption unit of the sdny that ran with this case which would indicate that there's bold faced names and even other elected officials or bribery, whatever. they cover a lot there. my question to you, is it possible that maxwell will offer to flip, could she get a deal and take another shot at this? >> speaking as a former prosecutor, usually if someone was going to flip they would have done so by this point. it is possible as we go to the sentencing phase of this trial we may see maxwell's attorney

reach out to the prosecutors in this case that might be able to secure convictions down the line if possible in terms of getting a lower sentence. many of the high-profile names that we have heard about or have been rumored to be connecteded to this case may not be an issue here because there is a statute of limitations there, if they are going to charge these individuals, it will have to be because they were involved in the sex trafficking as well meaning that they took young women from state to state across state lines and that's what invokes the federal jurisdiction. if maxwell will offer testimony that will help them in that regard, then they may be willing to cut a deal but, again, if that was going to happen, it already would have. >> ghislaine maxwell guilty on five of six charges of sex

trafficking. charles coleman, tom winter, thank you both for walking us through. >> is there mixed messaging on covid. we'll run through the latest development on testing, mask wearing and the definition of being fully vaccinated with a leading infectious disease expert next on "morning joe." g .

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infections from the omicron variant. maryland, washington, d.c., reporting a record number of hospitalizations yesterday. more than 500 in d.c. the cdc is defending new recommendations that cut the isolation time for asymptomatic people who have tested positive from ten days to five. yesterday on "morning joe" i asked the director of the cdc, dr. rochelle walensky, about the decision not to recommend a negative test before returning to normal activity. >> and those recommendations we do not recommend a test for several reasons. the pcr test can stay positive for 12 weeks so for months. if you are waiting for a negative pcr you would be isolating for months. in terms of the antigen, though, we actually don't know how those tests perform, whether they can predict whether you can transmit virus or not. >> in another interview on cnn dr. walensky said the guidelines

had a lot to do with what we thought people would be able to tolerate. joining us the director for the center for infectious disease research and policy and a professor in the university of minnesota, good to see you, as always. so what's your take on these new guidelines that take the isolation down from ten days to five. it doesn't sound terribly rooted in science. it's more what people can tolerate, according to dr. walensky and hopefully get people back to work and school. is it based on science, in your point of view? >> we have a very impersuasion that will require some very imperfect responses. over the next three to four weeks we are going to see the number of cases in this country rise so dramatically we'll have a hard time keeping everyday life operating. already we're seeing it in our health care settings where we could lose 10% to 20% of health

care workers not available to work at all, in a very difficult market already. we're seeing that in critical infrastructure areas where people just can't come to work. so, to me, ideally you would like to have more time to allow people to clear the virus, not potentially transmitting it. at the same time we have to have people who are there every day doing the work and so how can you provide the safest environment? so i support what they're doing. i think that it's not perfect. it won't be perfect. but what we have is hardly going to allow for a perfect response. >> one of the things that raised our eyebrows yesterday, dr. walensky, when i asked her, shouldn't you show a negative test and not just put on a mask, and she said, well, a lot of those tests may show you positive results for weeks and weeks and weeks and so you would be quarantining for weeks if you took a test. does that mean the tests we have, which everyone has been encouraged to get, aren't doing us much good? >> well, there are three issues

with testing to be aware of. number one, you have to distinguish between the pcr test and the over-the-counter test. i have concerns about how accurately the over-the-counter test is picking up infections and that we're missing them and people are making life-altering decisions about do i go to a family event where there may be people at high risk for getting seriously ill and test negative before i go but i really was positive. the second thing the pcr is the definitive test and we want to get that, but that can be positive for some time, basically weeks, after infection because you have viral debris, meaning the virus isn't there but you're picking up the remnants of the virus and so you are positive. the third thing, which i think is by far the most important in all of these, in another two or three weeks there will be so many people who want to be tested that you don't have a test. how can you have a recommendation to be tested and

can't find one? >> i was walking home from work up broadway and they have those mobile vans that test people, and when you get to the front of the line a sign says it's a 72-hour return time to get your result back. for those three days do you stay at home? does the test mean anything after three days? just to underline what you said, the at-home test, the rapid tests so many of us are relying on, because it is more difficult to get a pcr appointment, you don't trust those necessarily, the rapid tests? >> i don't. we need a lot more information. i think the fda really has let us down in this area that we need much more information about how often are they correct. we have many, many examples of people who two and three days into their illness are testing negative by these tests but then turn up positive by pcr and, again, they may be helpful but at the same time how helpful? and we need to let the consume

er know this is your chance to find out if you are infected. the average citizen will say the test told me i was negative so can i do this and that. we need better information than we have. >> doctor, good morning. it's jonathan lemire. i know public health experts were saying the scarcity of the tests may have influenced the cdc's decision to get rid of the requirement or to do away with the requirement of testing negative before entering everyday life because they can't get their hands on one. i wanted to ask but this, speculation the last 24 hours, the definition of fully vaccinated may change. previously it had been two shots of pfizer and moderna or one of johnson & johnson but now with omicron and the need for boosters, it could change. what do you think? >> if you go back on this very show i think in august i thought full vaccinate status should include that third dose. and so i've all along said this

was not really about two doses and a booster this is a three prime vaccine. i agree right now that if you want to have the most protection against becoming infected or, in particular preventing illness, hospitalizations or deaths, that third dose is really important. so absolutely i think it should be implemented as a full vaccination. i understand the concerns about the definitions with mandates and so forth. but what i care about is what's going to protect you and me and our loved ones from becoming seriously ill. that's three doses. >> doctor, thank you, as always. coming up next here a look back at the year in headlines from the january 6th attack on the capitol to severe weather to the newfound freedom of britney spears. nbc's joe fryar wraps up 2021 just ahead on "morning joe."

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welcome back to "morning joe." it has been a landmark year in space exploration from the billionaire space race to nasa's mission to mars. nbc's tom costello looks back at that and to what's ahead. >> reporter: if 2021 proved anything it's that the age of civilian space flight is here if you're rich, famous, or nobody somebody who is. a billionaire paid for three civilian astronauts to join him on a three-day spacex trip around the earth raising an astonishing $220 million for st. jude children's hospital. >> welcome to our dragon capsule here in space. we're doing this for you. >> reporter: jeff bezos sent

82-year-old wally funk to space, then 90-year-old william shatner. so what does 2022 hold in store? >> for the next generation of dreamers, if we can do this, just imagine what you can do. >> reporter: a lot of unfinished business. richard branson went to space over the summer, but his virgin galactic has not carried a single paying passenger as they work out redesign issues. they hope to start flying the backlog of famous paying passengers by the end of 2022 including justin bieber, lady gaga and tom hanks, each paying at least a quarter million dollars. next month spacex founder elon musk plans to test his monster starship rocket that nasa hopes to use to send astronauts back to the moon later this decade. some of those astronauts could be in the new astronaut class of 2021 just announced. ten candidates chosen from 12,000 applicants.

jeff bezos' blue origin will have paying passengers for quick ten-minute joy rides to space. but blue origin's bigger project is this. a new commercial space station called orbital reef, a floating business park ready in five to eight years. >> three, two, one. >> reporter: but the coolest mission of 2022, nasa's dart will purposely crash into an asteroid's moon at 115,000 miles per hour next fall. >> the mission is to go hit an asteroid and see if we can move it. >> reporter: nasa hopes to use that know-how to deflect future asteroids on a collision with earth. >> we had this unique opportunity to demonstrate the method and also to learn exactly what happens when you crash a spacecraft at high speed into an asteroid. >> reporter: but the u.s. is not alone. china is going big on space

already building its own space station with plans to put humans on the moon as soon as 2030. from international competitors to america's rich and famous, space race 2022 is about to heat up. >> nbc's tom costello coming up. raise a fist, take a knee. race in sports and what the author calls an illusion of progress. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe."

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xfinity. a way better way to watch. it is 8:35 in the morning. a rainy, dreary reagan national airport this morning. our next guest is looking at race in american sports. he is award winning journalist john feinstein, author of the

book "raise a fist, take a knee." mike barnicle is with us. we've come a long way in this country, i think everybody on this panel is a big sports fan. what do you suggest is the illusion? >> there's a sense that, i think, because we have made so much progress dating back to the elimination of jim crow laws, the raised fist at the '68 olympics for which they were pilloried at the time and now are iconic figures, because we've made progress, we're done, we're good. race is no longer an issue. race is clearly an overwhelming issue, it's been the elephant in the room for a long time and i became extremely conscious of

that during the 2017 anthem protests working on an nfl book so i was in a stadium every sunday. every sunday i saw the same thing. black players kneeling. white fans booing. and it occurred to me just how polarized we were racially at that moment. a lot of it came, of course, from donald trump, but it was more than that. and i set out to talk to people who had lived that life, who had lived a life of black athletes, coaches, administrators, and find out what they thought about where we are today in sports and in society. >> mike barnicle is here with a question for you. >> john, i'm wondering having read the book and parts of it are exhausting, parts of it are exciting, parts of it are frustrating. it's a global crisis but certainly a national crisis we have in the united states of america, our inability to deal

honestly and openly with race. my question to you, how do you as a reporter and a writer spend three years, at least three years, perhaps longer, writing about something you know you can write about slight improvements along the way but perhaps never ever get to a resolution? >> well, that's a great question, mike. one of my conclusions after my reporting we're not close to a resolution. there are people who want to believe we're close to a resolution. when jon gruden says i don't have a racist bone in my body, of course he does, and his emails that were exposed publicly tell you that. and we see it all the time in more subtle ways than that. look at the nfl, which is our most popular sport. 75% of the players are black. 3 of the 32 head coaches are black. when i asked tony dungy, who is

one of the most reasonable, down-to-earth people i've ever met or interviewed, why eric bienemy, the offensive coordinator still didn't have a head coaching job, before i could even get the entire question out tony said that's because of racism. it's still there. only 2 of the last 20 hires in the nfl head coaches have been black. how can that be possible? mike tomlin, who is a head coach, of course pointed out, there's plenty of talent out there. but the owners, as a group, are all white men and exactly one black owner and that's michael jordan. >> so when it comes to all the professional sports, some are resoundingly white -- golf, tennis, sports like that. major league baseball, though, used to have much more black

ball players than now per capita per team. what has happened and where does major league baseball stand in speaking out about the cultural changes in this country? >> you know, mike, the percentage that are black has gone down. some of that is just that basketball and football became the cool sports among all kids. but we have had an influx of hispanics. 27% of major leaguers today are hispanic and players from around the world, the most valuable player ohtani is japanese. that's diversity. there is no question that the sport has not done a good job of encouraging kids in general and black kids specifically to want to be black baseball players. ken griffey jr. has been retired

for so long. whereas in basketball you still have kevin durant, you have lebron james, you have superstars who are african american and 75% of the nba is african american. baseball in the last five or ten years has recognized the issue, has started some programs to get, again, more kids in general involved. it doesn't help with any race that world series games end after midnight. i grew up watching the world series on television in the afternoon. so did you. but now my kids have never seen a world series game from beginning to end. >> eddie? >> john, it's a pleasure to ask this question. you interviewed a lot of these athletes and coaches who have to experience race in sport.

what were some of the insights, the challenge where so much is expected of them but there are some boundaries of them as well? >> one of the great lines given to me was from john thomson, the great basketball coach, i was able to talk to before he got sick in august of 2020 and he said to me one of the things that infuriates him is being told, gee, aren't you lucky you were given the chance to succeed as a coach? his attitude, i did that. i made myself a successful coach. none of you gave me, quote, the chance. others did not get a chance to coach in a place like georgetown. that's why he got so angry when asked what it felt like to be the first black coach to get a team to the final four. it implies i'm the first black person capable of doing this and

clearly there were great black coaches who never got the opportunity before him. but beyond that, and i'll bet you've experienced this, every single black person i interviewed for this book had dealt with driving while black, dwb. most had experienced it multiple times. general manager of the knicks had an apartment in riverdale said twice a month driving home from riverdale, to riverdale from madison square garden, he would be pulled over and the first question was where did you get this car? because a black person driving a nice car at night in a nice neighborhood, oh, my goodness, something must be wrong. the most remarkable story, and there were many, from jones, the olympic swimmer who told me walking his dog in charlotte, he was stopped by a cop demanding to know where he had gotten the dog and how he had acquired it. i said, well you're the first

person stopped for walking dog while black. what amazing me as a white person talking to these people -- because i never had these experiences, was the fact that as far as we've come, in 2021 we still have a long way to go before you can wake up in the morning as a black person and not feel like being black is one of your two jobs. >> an experience in america that doesn't even spare well-known athletes. the book is "raise a fist, take a knee." john feinstein, great to see you. congratulations on the book and thanks for being here. coming up next here on "morning joe," a look at some of the most significant and talked about stories of the year next on "morning joe."

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it has been another long year dominated by news of the coronavirus pandemic, but there have been plenty of other noteworthy headlines from politics and foreign policy to pop culture and extreme weather. here's nbc's joe fryar. three, two, one! >> reporter: in the closing moments of 2020, as the ball

dropped above a sparsely populated times square, cautiously hope for better times, dreams that were quickly dampened. 2021 was just six days old when a mob of trump supporters stormed the u.s. capitol hoping to overturn the presidential election. the images from that day captured in the capitol rotunda, speaker pelosi's office, in the senate chamber, indelible portraits of a deadly uprising that stunned the world yet failed to stop lawmakers from certifying the election results. >> joseph r. biden jr. of the state of delaware has received 306 votes. >> reporter: in the days that followed, the streets of washington looked more like a war zone as the nation's focus shifted from insurrection to inauguration. at the scaled down ceremony

president biden was sworn in as america's 46th president. >> i, joseph robin biden jr., do solemnly swear. >> reporter: kamala harris became the first female vp. in the audience bernie sanders made a meme made a meme-worthy fashion statement. the outgoing president refused to stick around for the festivities but could not escape another impeachment. >> the president of the united states incited this insurrection. >> reporter: accused of inciting the riots donald trump became the first american president to be impeached twice, he was later acquitted by the senate. >> donald john trump former president of the united states is not guilty. >> reporter: it was a dramatic start to a year still dominated by covid. >> we learned this morning that the pandemic has now taken 400,000 lives in the u.s. >> reporter: as the country emerged from a deadly winter, vaccines became more available, first to the most vulnerable, then to all adults, and

eventually to most kids. >> how bad was it? >> not bad at all. >> reporter: despite the welcomed shot in the arm more americans died from covid this year than last when the more contagious delta variant surged and hospitals filled again treating mostly unvaccinated patients. >> now we are treating patients in the hallways. >> reporter: mask mandates sparked rage. at school board meetings. >> let the parents make the decisions. let the kids breathe. >> reporter: as classrooms cautiously returned to in-person learning. >> i'd rather wear it because i don't want to get covid. >> reporter: and in a way all of us were students this year as our vocab laers expanded to include new terms, breakthrough cases, boosters, and by year's end, omicron. as the pandemic raged, so did nature's fury. >> we're huddled under all the

blankets that we have. >> in february a deadly ice storm paralyzed texas leaving millions without power. wildfires continue to ravage the west, while hurricane ida carved a path of destruction that stretched from louisiana to new york and this month more than 10 were killed by a series of rare december tornadoes in kentucky and surrounding states. one twister cutting a path more than 200 miles long. it was a year of fatal tragedies, the astroworld concert in houston, a christmas parade in waukesha, wisconsin, and a condo building in surfside, florida. >> it just felt like an earthquake. who ever thinks a building is going to collapse on you. >> reporter: notice the 12-story tower partially collapsed, killing nearly 100 people while many slept. tragedy also reached a movie set in new mexico where actor alec baldwin was handed a gun that

fired a real round, killing the film's sin met to go grafr. some of last year's biggest stories led to this year's biggest trials. >> we the jury as to count one unintentional second degree murder while committing a felony find the defendant guilty. >> reporter: a jury found former minnesota police officer derek chauvin guilty of murdering george floyd, a verdict celebrated outside the courthouse and beyond. in georgia three white men were convicted of murdering ahmaud arbery. >> we the jury find the defendant kyle h. rittenhouse not guilty. >> reporter: kyle rittenhouse was was found not guilty of all charges after shooting three men during protests last year. exacerbating the growing political chasm in america in a year already filled with partisan tensions and pointed debates, where controversial issues including abortion,

transgender rights, political harmony was not totally allusive. capitol hill lawmakers passed a bipartisan infrastructure bill and overwhelmingly voted to take juneteenth a federal holiday. >> war knack 83.2%. >> reporter: and if you thought our politics would settle down after the last election, think again. the year started with democrats flipping two senate seats in georgia and ended with republicans flipping the governor's seat in virginia. overseas america ended the 20-year war in afghanistan, pulling the last remaining u.s. troops out of the country. the world watched as the taliban rapidly reclaimed control, desperate afghans tried to flee. >> kabul is falling now. >> reporter: chaotic final days a suicide bomber killed 13 service members, all of it

sparking international criticism for how the withdrawal was handled. president biden stood by his decision. >> after 20 years of war in afghanistan i refuse to send another generation of america's sons and daughters to fight a war that should have ended long ago. >> reporter: in october world leaders gathered once again in person in rome for the g 20 conference and the global conference. notably missing queen elizabeth forced to bow out over health concerns. it was a challenging year when the prince and meghan markle sat down for an interview with oprah winfrey. >> there is a conversation with you. >> with harry. >> about how dark your baby is going to be? >> potentially and what that would mean or look like. >> that conversation i'm never going to share. >> reporter: the royals also

said good-bye to the queen's husband of more than 70 years, prince philip, who died at the age of 99. his, one of many notable deaths this year. former secretary of state colin powell, senator bob dole, actress cicely tyson, steven sondheim, christopher plumber. ♪♪ >> reporter: so many more. >> this is "jeopardy." >> reporter: it was the year that "jeopardy" struggled to find a permanent host. >> welcome to the second of our matches. >> reporter: brittany was finally freed from her conservatorship and our friends reunited and block busters made their long awaited return, along with broadway, and adele. ♪ help me, baby ♪♪

>> reporter: the olympic flame belated turned one year later than planned as tokyo hosted the 2020 games in 2021. simone biles traded high scores for high praise when she withdrew from several events to focus on her mental health. >> i have to focus on my mental well-being and that's what i did. >> reporter: tiger woods started swinging again following a serious car crash in california and billionaires raced to space, even captain kirk took a trip to the final frontier. >> i'm so filled with emotion about what just happened. i just -- it's extraordinary. >> reporter: an inspiring reminder of what the future holds. >> i did it, america. >> reporter: we reflect on a year dominated by vaccines and hope 2022 offers a shot at something even better.

>> let's hope so. joe fryer with the year in review. finally this morning, we want to give you a look at the people behind the scenes, the talented people who wake up in the darkness of night to put on "morning joe" every day. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪

>> we've got the most talented staff in the business and a very challenging year coming in, doing their jobs and putting this show on for you every day. it is a joy, an honor and a privilege to work alongside them. that does it for us this morning. we will be back here tomorrow morning. for now, chris jansing picks up the coverage. ♪♪ ♪♪ hi there, i'm chris jansing in for stephanie ruhle. this is thursday, december 30th, and we start with breaking news. a clinical trial just released from south africa shows a booster shot of the johnson & johnson vaccine provides strong

protection against severe disease from the omicron variant and greatly reduces the risk of hospitalization, but despite that encouraging news the pandemic is escalating to a whole new level. records smashed, hospitals on the brink, and growing questions this morning about new year's celebrations set to take place tomorrow night. dr. anthony fauci suggests skipping big new year's parties with infections skyrocketing. >> if your plans are to go to a 40 to 50-person new year's eve party with all the bells and whistles and everybody hugging and kissing and wishing each other a happy new year, i would strongly recommend that this year we do not do that. >> it's all because of the surge, in just the past 24 hours the seven-day average in the u.s. reached nearly 300,000 a day. as the u.s. broke its single-day record with almost 500,000 cases yesterday alone. in the northeast covid staffing shortages causing