friday night. "w" our thanks to you for being with us. on behalf of all of my colleagues at the networks of nbc news, good night. rachel's got the night off. so here's how it went down. it was a chilly afternoon in early january. angry crowds, unexpectedly storm the main building. police had to hold him off the were overrun. by nightfall, there were several people dead and injured, and the seat of government was trashed. windows were broken, small fires were smoldering. it was as though, in a single day, the country was irrevocably changed. that's what happened, in january. not last january, not a year ago, but this january. two days ago. and not of the u.s. capital. but in the central asian nation

of kazakhstan. this was the main government building in kazakhstan's largest silly, on wednesday. has been involved in protests, this all week. protests that began as a backlash against high gas prices. but quickly evolved into a revolt against the autocratic regime that is ruled kazakhstan for over 30 years. protesters also stormed the presidential palace, setting it on fire. they pulled down a statue of kazakhstan's former dictator who, by all accounts still basically runs the country, through his handpicked successor. for decades, kazakhstan has been ruled by this one guy. he was the longest serving ruler of any ex soviet state. things feel like they will never change, until they suddenly do. you may not have been following the story this week, we've had quite a bit on our minds at home, but chances, are you recognize this. you recognize this sort of narrative. we've been observing it in that part of the world for decades.

the people of a former soviet republic rising the against the repressive regime that still governs them. now, to be clear, the protests in kazakhstan, this week, have all kinds of specific grievances in goals. but, the protesters have been explicit. they want greater democracy and civil rights, like so many of the former soviet republics around them have won, over the years. and we recognize this. we see this happening in a place a kazakhstan. we know what this is. but, what is this? we are one year out from the attack on our capital, but in a lot of ways, we still don't know what this was. the january 6th attack looks like the attack on the government building in kazakhstan, exactly a year later. but, the similarities basically start and end there. for starters, the goal of those storming the buildings are polar opposites. in kazakhstan, the protesters

are trying to throw off an autocratic government, and make their country more democratic. the rioters of the u.s. capital were attempting to stop the democratic process, to keep their preferred, somewhat autocratic leader, in power, through violent intimidation. but, i think the other big reason that we've had such trouble of processing january 6th is it doesn't fit any narrative that we tell ourselves about ourselves. crowds storming government buildings happened in other places, places that kazakhstan. and, when it happens, we at least have a basic sense of how things could develop, as a result. we've seen this narrative, in for instance, ukraine,. were pro democracy protesters -- autocratic leader, to flee in 2014. since then, ukraine is managed, with american support, to hold on to its tenuous democracy, through one russian invasion, and the threat of another, any

minute. we've seen a more tragic narrative in belarus, where massive protests look poised to topple the dictator. but, his brutal crackdown, backed by russia, has so far succeeded in nearly obliterating the opposition. we don't get -- how kazakhstan. as we speak russian is sending thousands of troops into the country, to act as so called, peacekeepers. kazakhstan's president says he's giving his own troops shoot to kill orders against protesters. this abbott and flow of democracy is constant around the world. democracy, holding on tenuously in ukraine, seeing a spark of life in kazakhstan. slipping away in belarus. democracy eroding in hungary, extinguished with terrifying speed in hong kong. but, also, advancing in something unexpected places. the island nations of samoa managed to survive a constitutional crisis this past summer. and the democratically elected,

and first female prime minister took office. just weeks ago, the caribbean nation of barbados removed queen elizabeth as head of state. becoming a republic. have and flow. constant around the globe. but i think it's fair to say, that for the past few decades, america, and americans have felt like we were watching that have been flow of democracy from outside of them. as observers. we involved our selves in other countries democratic struggles, goodness knows we often failed to live up to our own standards, but united fates felt exempt from the internal struggles over democracy, that are taking place over the world. but, the united states is a stable functioning democracy, that fell look like a. given a not law of nature. over the last few years, americans have started coming to grips with the fact that we are not exempt from the urban flow of democracy, around the world.

we are very much in it. because, it's very unclear what's path our democracy takes from here. and the signs of not been reassuring over the past year. take just one basic measure of january 6th. how do we describe it? how do we talk about? it would do we call it? in the immediate aftermath of the attack, almost everyone was on the same page. even republican lawmakers. >> united states and the united states congress have placed down much greater threats then the unhinged crowd we saw today. they tried to disrupt our democracy, they failed. violence, destruction, and chaos we saw earlier was unacceptable. undemocratic, and un-american. it was the saddest day i've ever had serving as a member of this institution. >> whether it's anarchy or terrorism, they were trying to storm the capital and stop our

democracy from working. >> there was no meaningful disagreement in the immediate aftermath of january 6th. whatever elsa was, it was a violent attack on our democracy. one against which, we must all unite. but, in the years since, not only donald trump and his allies, but republican lawmakers, who are in the capital when it was attacked, have engaged in this bizarre revision of history. in which the attack was either not that big a deal, or was actually a peaceful, patriotic protest, or was of all's flag operation, carried out by the leftist, deep state or something. yesterday, solemn capitol hill remembrance -- on the one year anniversary with attack, literally only two republican showed up. congresswoman liz cheney, and her dad. former vice president, dick cheney. i'm pretty sure them, this is the first time that democrats have ever been glad to see dick

cheney walk onto the house floor. speaking of former vice president, nbc news this evening has confirmed -- that sometime this month, the january 6th investigation plans to invite former vice president, mike pence, to appear before the committee. the chair of the investigation, congressman benny's thompson, says, the vice president was put in a tough spot. the president was putting a lot of pressure on him to break the law, and he stood fast. because of his respect for law, there were people who came to the capitol year ago wanting to hang him. and so, if for no other reason, our committee really needs to hear what are his opinions on what happened on january 6th. mike pence is walked a very fine line over the past year. he's never disavowed his decision to carry out his rule, in certifying joe biden's victory over donald trump's wishes. yet, on every other point, he's been nothing but fawning toward trump. if you want to see this shift,

the shift from where we all agree, that this was a violent attack on our democracy. you can see the shift happen in realtime. for one republican senator. ladies and gentlemen, i give you senator ted cruz, of texas. >> solomon -- on the capital, a quote, violent terrorist attack. now, that's not new terrain for cruz. he's repeatedly called into terrorist attack. or, call the attackers terrorists. but, apparently, ted cruz did not get the memo about republicans no longer being able to say bad things about january 6th. and so, ted cruz had to go on fox news and grovel. >> the way i phrase things yesterday, it was sloppy, and it was frankly dumb. >> whoa. whoa. i've known you a long time, since before you went to the senate. i do not believe that you use that accidentally. >> so, tucker, as a result of

my sloppy phrasing it's, cause a lot of people to misunderstand what i meant. i wasn't saying that the thousands of peaceful protesters supporting donald trump are somehow terrorists. it would be ridiculous for me to be saying that the people standing up and protesting to follow the law, were somehow terrorists. i wasn't saying millions of patriots across the country support and trump are terrorists. i agree with you. it was a mistake to say that yesterday. >> please, don't hurt me. i know we shouldn't be surprised by anything anymore. imagine a year ago, as rioters tore through the capital, and members of congress to coward on the -- staffers barricaded themselves in offices. imagine knowing that one year later, republican u.s. senators would be raked over the coals for condemning these people. that united states senator, who wanted a political future in the republican party, would have to go submit to a spanking

on live tv for his harsh words about people who stormed the capitol. now, ted cruz getting a lot of mockery. he should. it's kind of funny. but it's a symptom of something that's deadly serious. when the two major political parties in a country cannot agree on the fundamentals of democracy, like, say storming the u.s. capital in order to disrupt a democratic election and the peaceful transition of power is a bad thing. one one parties violent anti democratic rioters, are not the party's heroes, history tells us things could get ugly fast. and again, we kind of know how to see this. how to interpret it, when it happens in other places. when we can see the forces of democracy and autocracy battling it out in the streets of, say, kazakhstan. but, it is much harder to understand that battle, and how to fight it, when it is close up. when the democratic struggles that we've watched in other

countries becomes our own. joining us now, the a professor of history at nyu. this author of, strongman. she also writes a news letter on threats to democracy, called elusive. she says, we are living through a right wing counter revolution, and january 6th was a milestone on americas path away from democracy. professor, it's good to see you again. welcome, it's good to have you. >> sure. >> i want to ask you about this issue that you write about in your book, and other historians talk about. that is, there is something about american exceptionalism. about the strength of belief that americans have in themselves, which is a bit different from patriots and other countries, that doesn't allow us to see fundamental flaws, or faults, like the when you describe. there's something that doesn't want us to believe that what we saw a year ago was actually an attack on democracy.

>> yeah, americans have always been very invested in the idea of america of as a beacon of freedom. it has been so for -- so many immigrants who come here. but there's a whole other side to american democracy, such as all the quds. during the cold war -- propped up, and helped to happen. it's taken away democracy for countries. what's so poignant about that, right now, we're living through a very serious assault on democracy, and some of the people involved in, that trump, and robert stone, man in, these are people with decades of experience in wrecking democracies and funding dictators, and the cases of trump's money laundering. so, it's been a huge wake up call. because i study fascism, i saw early who trump was.

i wrote strongman because i wanted to let my fellow americans know, it can happen here. that over history, many other cultures in peoples have been very amazed that it happened to them. and that, trump was not going to leave quietly, because he was using an autocratic, rather than democratic playbook to govern. >> let me ask you about the language we use. you talk about it being a wake up call, but not everybody is woken up yet. you have a quote in your book, for a political system that affects the lives of so many, authoritarianism remains a surprisingly fuzzy concept. we still lack of common language to speak about the governments of the 21st century authoritarian rules who's repressed several liberties but use elections to keep themselves in power. there are many americans, today, who say, there's nothing wrong with our democracy. we have elections, we will continue to have elections. >> yeah, the problem with that

is -- even mike pence, they are all trotting over the budapest. today the, you don't normally ban elections, that's less common. you hold elections and you fix them, like the ruler of kazakhstan, and belarus, and putin. so, you can say you are -- what orban calls, a liberal democracy. there's not much democrats see about it. this is what's of course happening now, with the level of the states. the gop is assaulting our election mechanism. but, this idea that you can still say you are a democracy -- so, we are in this period of time where many states are in a transition between democracy and autocracy. some people use the word electoral autocracy, some people use the word an opera see, some people call the united states that after january 6th. so, we do --

were still searching for a language, because authoritarianism is so -- i want to >> i want to read something else from your book. one of the discussions we have, is how we have this discussion who do not believe what you say to be the truth. you write, the decay of truth and democratic dissolution proceed hand-in-hand, starting with the insurgents assertion that the establishment media delivers all's or biased information while he speaks the truth and risks everything to get the real facts out. once his supporters bond to this person, they stop caring about his falsehoods. this may be where we are with a good portion of americans, right now. >> yeah. trump did this right away. i have a picture in my book of hitler with his mouth taped shut, because they were speaking ban on how hitler, because it was hate speech. the nazi party made political capital out of that, calling him a victim.

victimhood is very important to the strongman profile. the whole thing with trump, right now, he's a very able propagandist. a very able storyteller, who's always the victim. so, this very compelling story of him as the leader, the hero, the savior of the nation, who's been wronged, that something that's rightfully his the election has been stolen from him. and he's trying to tell the truth. he's always had that persona. it's been really effective in building a fanatical base, who are willing to wreck congress for him. i really see january 6th as a cool event, a milestone on a race war. but, it's also one authoritarian leader called rescue operation. >> professor, i'm going to continue this conversation with you tomorrow morning. we'll be having this again. thank you for joining us. author and nyu professor, ruth benji ought. we appreciate your time.

last night, the historian doris currents goodwin told rachael that passing the voting rights bill in the senate is the most important thing that can be done, right now, to prevent this slide into authoritarianism. we have big news on that effort. we'll talk about it next. t next hey joshie... wrinkles send the wrong message. help prevent them with downy wrinkleguard. feel the difference with downy. with clean, fresh ingredients, panera's new chicken sausage and pepperoni flatbread is a mouthwatering explosion of yes. craft? yes! heartiness? yes! living life to the flavor-fullest? heck yes. panera. live your yes. now $1 delivery.

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when you're born and raised in san francisco, there's no you grow up's s wanting to make a difference. that's why, at recology, we're proud to be 100% employee owned with local workers as diverse as san francisco. we built the city's recycling system from the ground up, helping to make san francisco the greenest big city in america but we couldn't do it without you. thank you, san francisco. gracias, san francisco. -thank you. -[ speaks native language ] voting in civil rights champion, let's keep making a difference together.

lonnie quinn here died today. she was 71 years old. miss guangyi had an illustrious career. she led the voting rights project, and the end all of bull ac piece legal defense fun. in 1993, she was voted -- for civil rights, only to be withdrawn in the face of stern republican opposition. she was also the first woman of color to receive tenure at harvard law school. lonnie quinn ear was also a student of democracy, who believe that we all have a part to play and it's upkeep. can >> living in a democracy is not something that we inherit. it is not something that we

inhabit. it is not something that we consume. it is something that we actively build together. >> today, tributes for junior poured in from scholars and activists across the country. paying tribute to her decade long championing a voting. writes her passing come as democrats ramp up efforts to pass to stalled voting rights bills in the senate. today, senator schumer again reiterated plans to hold a vote on changing senate rules, to help facilitate passage of a voting rights bill -- kings family plans to celebrate the -- to pass, for the people, and the john lewis voting rights act. but, martin luther king day on your son, martin luther king the third has stressed, quote, no celebration, without legislation. president joe biden and vice

president kamala harris are facing pressure from -- to do more than offer forceful remarks on protecting the right to vote. on tuesday, the president and vice president will visited lantern to talk about voting rights, and efforts by georgia republicans to limit voting access, in that state. but ahead of their arrival, a coalition of voting rights groups released a statement, essentially saying, don't come to atlanta without a plan to pass voting laws. quote, georgia voters made history and made their voices heard, overcoming obstacles, threats, and suppressive law's to deliver the white house and the united states senate. in return, a visit has been forced on them requiring them to accept -- and reputations, bland promises. such an empty gesture, without concrete action, without signs of real, tangible work, is unacceptable. as civil rights leaders and advocates, we reject any visit by president biden that does not include an announcement of

a finalized voting rights plan that will pass both chambers. not be stopped by the filibuster, and signed into law, anything less is insufficient and unwelcome. law joining us now, the chair and ceo of the new georgia project. one of the groups are signed on to that letter. good to see you. thanks for being here. that is a forceful letter. i am curious about what you think the reaction will be, and what you like the president and vice president to be able to do, to meet the standards that are set out in that request. tim snyder kim >> i will say some of the early reactions have been quite visceral. i think people think that people think we're being harsh, or sharpen or critique. but, what our intent is, and what i think is happening, we are creating the demand.

so that there is no doubt that this historic visit, where we have not only the president, but our vice president, coming to this historic place all, the cradle of the civil rights movement -- the american civil rights movement, to talk about how our democracy, how our elections infrastructure is being attacked. they should hear from activists and organizers, and ordinary georgians on the ground about what they would like to see from this visit. so, again, some people might frame it as a harsh criticism, i absolutely see it as our articulating the demand from their base. >> what happens when the vice president and president say, as they have said, we are on your side on this thing? we fully agree with you, there's no policy difference between what you and your fellow groups have done in georgia, and what you want done, and what the president wants done. but, how do you propose, or do

not propose, that he get to that? in terms of something that get looks like a plan to pass both houses of congress -- and overcome the filibuster. what is it that you are asking specifically to be done? >> well, here's the thing. senator schumer has already laid the plans. articulating is our ambitions to have a rule change vote on the 17th, commemorating the birth of martin luther king. what i will say, i haven't served in that body for four decades. but, i know somebody who has. that is our president. it is our hope that with his 40 years of experience, and the bully pulpit that comes with being the president of the united states. that, together, he can work with leaders in the senate to articulate with the plan is. or, if there is no plan.

every republicans have so thoroughly advocated their responsibility to govern, that there's no path forward, i think the american people need to hear that. i want to talk about some of the very specific things. to some people, this is an extraction -- or you don't have problems registering to vote, your polling places very close to, you have transportation, you can take time off, or this is an abstraction. in georgia, i -- just want to read this you are. future right now, advocates and local leaders are fighting to stop the closure of seven out of eight polling places in looking county. we're over one third of the voters are black. just next year, the legislators will convene with republican leaders are only proudly touting their plans to attack voting access, push to pan drop boxes, and a wreck new hurdles in the path of voters. adam this is very very practical for you in your organization, and for voters in georgia. it is a literal, physical impediments to people voting. >> absolutely.

this is not an academic discussion. we are not sitting on our dorm room floor debating democracy him. what is happening -- this is an active threat, in realtime. our republican leaders in georgia have not started, not once. they are unified. this is a well funded to tack. we are not just talking about georgia, we're not just talking about red states. i will not shut up of about the fact that 400 anti voting bills were introduced in nearly every state, in our country, in the ten months -- in the 11 months, since legislative session started to get in 2021. they are not playing them i don't understand why people are not acting with a sense of tim snyder urgency yale university there are tons of things in the president's domestic policy

agenda, the foreign policy agenda, that we absolutely need past the build back better build the. changes to infrastructure history professor to include our frontline workers, the human capital, the people that make our country, and then it kept us safe. all of that is necessary, all of that is important, and none of that will happen if we are not able to -- in our elections. i'm talking about rural counties in georgia, and i'm talking about counties in california, as well. >> you underscore the most important point, here. thanks again for your work. we appreciate you being with us tonight. much more ahead, tonight, including a stunning face off a supreme court, including justices, as rachel would say, live on earth, and those who appear to realize -- joins us next. next.

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supreme court weighed in on some of the biden administration's key strategies for combat in covid. policies that would affect more than 100 million americans. the court heard arguments, today, in two cases. one case challenging the biden administration's policy to require vaccines or testing in the workplace with companies with more than 100 employees. the other one, whether the administration can require health care workers our health facilities that, except any health funding, which includes most hospitals, to receive vaccines. both cases -- but as well as some business owners. and one of the cases, two of the republican attorneys arguing against the administration's policies, were forced to appear, virtually. because, you guessed it, they both tested positive for covid. throughout both cases, the liberal justices appear to be shocked that officials would still be challenging these covid safety policies. wondering how blocking them from taking effect, could

possibly be in the public interest at the u.s., at a time when the u.s. cases are at all-time high. >> we have more affected people in the country today, then we had a year ago, in january. we have hospitals that are almost at full capacity. we have over 100,000 children which we've never had before them in serious condition. >> there were three quarters of 1 million new cases yesterday, new cases. that's ten times as many as one osha put this rule in. the hospitals are today, yesterday, full. almost to the point of a maximum. the question is, how can it be conceivably in the public interest, when three quarters of 1 million people, yesterday, goodness knows how many people today. >> despite the -- we've heard from those justices, from justices breyer. the court's conservative majority, today, indicated that it would be preparing to strike

down the biden administration's more expansive of the policies the, covid employer rule. while leaving the door open to potentially allowing the more narrow rule, requiring mandates for some health care workers to stand. as delia lithwick, and mark joseph stern put it today, on slate.com, quote, where the liberals justices see sickness and death, the conservatives see a chance to crush government. it's a familiar pattern we've been watching play out all year, whether it's abortion rights, or gun safety legislation, or policies aimed at combat in a global pandemic. the supreme court soon could become where major health and safety laws, in america, go to die. what is there to be done about it? joining us now, dolly ellis quick. senior editor and correspondent for slate. some -- scotus's conservatives, it's also an opportunity. good evening gala, thank you for being with us. you do this thing, most americans don't, do you listen

to these proceedings. catching some of the nuances in them. one of them that you caught today, you wrote about. you said, so acute is the contagion of medical misinformation coming from the court itself that the three liberals had to keep clarifying, for themselves as much as the public, that the government is not proposing an orwellian hell-scape, so much as safe and is fact of mitigation efforts for a lethal virus that is emptying workplaces, filling hospitals, and debilitating medical professionals. i was alarmed to read that. that you were feeling like some of this anti vax nonsense that we've been associating with people out there, a surfacing at the court. >> it was almost impossible to miss. just as alito pretty ill explicitly started talking with his solicitor general of the united states, about how there are risks to this vaccine. he kept saying, i don't want to

be misunderstood. i know the fda's has approved them, but there are risks, there are risks. she literally didn't know how to answer him, because she said, orders of magnitude, a vaccine is better than, not the vaccine. but, there was just this drip drip of suspicion about the vaccine, suspicion about the administration's motives, suspicions about how long this is going to last. -- the specter of this nefarious agency, by agency, by a gst -- to sort of do a run around civil liberties. it really felt like they were taking crazy pills. as if we were in sitting in the midst of a peaking, catastrophic pandemic. the level of mistrust that you heard from the courts and conservatives was just, frankly, shocking. >> let's talk about the employer mandate. the night it was announced, i spoke, on the show, to a former

osha director. who made the point, the way osha works, and anybody who works in a place that is governed by osha has those posters up, that aren't in the cafeteria, that is, if there is a hazard, that you as an employer can prevent your workers from being exposed to, you have an obligation to do. so the way this mandate seem to be phrased, covid is a hazard, and you can take steps to prevent your employees from getting it, so you should do so. the former director seems to think that that made it legally sound. what's happened to that? >> two things have happened. one, i think there was an argument being pressed today that this is not the same as sparks or flames, or something in the workplace. this is something different, so it can be regulated as though it's something connected to a conveyor belt. to which justice sotomayor said,

this is as though something is sparking inflame, is the human that is coughing particles into the air. it's exactly the same. the workplace is dangerous. you said this in your initial question, it is to really do away with the administrative state. to do away with the regulatory state, that enables agencies to create the laws quickly, and this is part of a much larger project to dismantle the epa to dismantle osha, all under this claim of the non insurrection rally decks allegation in doctrine. but, basically the idea that all of government is somehow, on constitutional. >> i think it's worth -- i hope people read would you published today, and where you always publish. it's philosophical discussion with where some of these -- we all appreciate your time.

dahlia lithwick, the senior editor and legal correspondent for slate. still ahead, -- just had a terrible, horrible no good very bad day. stay with us. h us

we have front out of words to describe what we are undergoing. a crisis does not even come close. hospitals are literally full. those are the words of the minnesota hospital association, today. they go on, the carrot capacity throughout all of minnesota severely limited. icus are full, emergency departments are full, medical surgical units are full. always are full, and surgeries are being canceled. the prevailing wisdom about the covid wave washing over this country is that omicron is spreading quicker, but for most people it causes a milder infections. and that is true. but all across the country, we're seeing hospitals overwhelmed. the record for covid hospitalizations in the united

states was sent a your call, last january, when more than 140,000 people were being treated for the virus. but right now, we're not far off from that. as of this past wednesday, more than 128,000 patients were currently hospitalized in the united states. remember, hospitalizations generally lag cases by about two weeks. on monday, the u.s. hit a worldwide record with 1 million new cases recorded in a single day. now, predicting hospitalizations is by no means an exact science, but it is something we can forecast. the cdc currently predicts that we're expected to see a massive spike in the coming weeks, they forecast anywhere between 24,000 and 54,000 new covid covid nine hospitalizations every day, by the end of the month. now, omicron does give most people a much milder case. but way more people are getting it. so, it's still overwhelming our hospitals, and things are

likely to get worse. omicron has made us entirely reevaluate the way we're handling this pandemic. and will be the last variant to which we must adjust. so the question is, as covid evolves, how do we evolve? and as we're coming up on two years of this pandemic, with no end in sight. what will our new normal be? you may remember that during the presidential transition between the time biden won the election, and when he was inaugurated, then president elect made his own covid-19 advisory board, so the administration hit the ground running a soon as it hit office. six of biden's former advisor on that board took a very polls depth this week. they published a series of articles laying out their plan. quote, a national strategy for the new normal of life with covid. the articles are packed with a ton of different ideas. the reason i say this is a bold step is because, their plan is not the white house's plan. they are pitching a way to live with the virus, not a way to

eradicate it. quote, it's imperative that the united states leaders establishing communicate specific goals for covid-19 management. benchmarks for the imposition, or relaxation of public health restrictions. investments and reforms needed to prepare for future variants, and clear strategies to accomplish all of this. in other words, they're sane eradicating the viruses unrealistic. so u.s. leaders need to set different goals. communicate them, and come up with plans to meet them. it's not a direct rebuke of the white house, but it's an argument for a different approach. joining us now is one of the co-authors of one of these articles, dr. celine gallagher, doctor gallagher is a -- professor of infectious disease at the -- she's a former member of the biden harris covid advisory board, doctor harris good to see you again, thank you for being with us. i just want to understand whether or not i characterize that correctly. it is not a rebuke, but it is not the white house's position, is not the cdc's position at the moment. >> that's correct.

i think what we're really trying to do here is to compliment the efforts of the administration, who frankly are spread very thin just trying to do the day-to-day running of the covid response, where you don't have the luxury to step back and think over what should be the strategy, which should be the benchmarks. we have that luxury. and so we came together to put together these different articles, outlining what we see the future strategy should be moving forward, and how to get there. >> the cdc under donald trump, in the days of covid, i'm trying to say this on television without swearing or something. it was a mess, it was a messaging nightmare. it was the height of inconsistency. at this point, i would say that some people would say that messaging from the cdc and the federal government still seems a little leggy, and sometimes

confused. what's the problem, and how do you fix it? >> i think part of the issue is, in a sense, the current administration has gone to the other end of the spectrum with respect to controlling the messaging. coordinating is probably the better word, across the different agencies. i think it's important that they continue to avoid political interference in the science. but there may be a role for a little bit more coordination of messaging, so that messaging is clearer, and it doesn't get confusing when different people in the administration are saying slightly different things. >> i think that's a good way to put it. i would sooner take a slight or lack of communication, rather than interference that should be made by decisions limit should be made by public health experts and doctors. what is it your and your colleagues proposing? when's new normal look like.

and how will that be a departure from where the white house and the administration are with covid? >> i think a lot of people have been hoping to turn the clock back until november of 2019. that's simply not a realistic plan. that's not what the administration has been trying to do. but i think many of the in the public of wanted to go back in time. the reality is that we are going to have to live with covid. but i think the key here is how do we live, how do we control the disease, the hospitalizations, the deaths here. unfortunately, because of the nature of this virus, especially with omicron you have such a short incubation period, from the time of exposure, to the timing infection takes off and you develop symptoms, this is really not and traction you can eliminate or are at a kate, you're not even going to be able to prevent all infections and transmission. so really, our goal here, is going back to what we are saying the summer of 2020, it's really flattening the curve,

reducing the number of severe cases. hospitalizations and deaths. and getting things down to a level where health care systems can cope with a number of covid patients. we know that when numbers showed up, so do case fatality rates, so the likelihood of dying from covid, and if we can and we know that if we can control the numbers, we can really manage patients much more effectively. >> doctor, we're out of time, but i have a lot to discuss with you. the lucky thing is we get into get a chance to talk quite frequently. thanks for being with us this evening. doctor celine gallagher, is clinical professor at the nyu -- thank you for your time. up next, we covered a lot of court cases on the show, but something that happened in arizona this week caught us by surprise. that's next. week caught us by surprise that's next. just two pills for all day pain relief. aleve it, and see what's possible. and also try alevex topical pain relief.

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didn't want to keep saying in 2022, but here we are. cyber ninjas. you may recall that last year,

pro trump elected officials hired a small cybersecurity firm, called the cyber ninjas, to conduct a so-called, audit of the presidential election. even though the audit turned out to be complete bowl puck-y, it's worth noting, that due to the nature of the work, the cyber ninjas are subject to a public rappers request. back in june, the arizona republic soothe those records, in the cyber ninjas were turned over the records. to this day, the cyber ninjas have not complied. given that, the paper asked the judge, overseeing the case, to find the cyber ninjas 1000 bucks a day. yesterday, the judge says, he doesn't think 1000 bucks a day would do any good. maricopa, superior coat -- noncompliance was worth 50 times that amount. he wants the company to pay $50,000 per day. saying he issue that notice, to put cyber ninjas on notice. it appears, via comedian

notice. in text message to nbc news, the company spokesperson says says, cyber ninjas is shutting. down all employees have been let go. if that is an attempt to avoid financial damages for refusing to turn over damages, the company might be out of luck. yesterday, the judge explicitly warned that he would issue orders to the individuals responsible for providing those records, should the company refuse to turn them over. judge dana said, quote, the court is not going to accept the assertion that cyber ninjas is an empty shell and that no one is responsible for seeing that it complies. those fines will begin accruing today. the clock is officially taking. the contractors, formally known as, cyber ninjas, can either be transparent, delivering records that are outstanding, or they can pay up. i wonder which door they will choose. as rachel would say, watch this

space. that does it for us tonight, rachel's back on monday. i'll see you tomorrow morning, at 8 am, for my show, velshi. -- there could not be more at stake, tomorrow morning all talk to one of the key players working on building the votes to get it done, james clever. now, it's time for the last word -- good evening, ali. i'm trying not to shed a single tier for the demise of cyber ninjas. it's incredible >> yeah. the ninja acts thing is apparently working for them. they might be disappearing, the might be able to disappear, but apparently that $50,000 a day is quite real. >> yeah, well $50,000 a day, if i were found, that i disappear. two ali, thank you very much. so, america, where do we go from here? it's january 7th, 2022. while some want to put what